BS: Gerry Adams arrest

Subject: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 14 - 08:36 AM

I find this a very scary development. I thought we were trying to draw a line under the years 1968=-2010.

Gerry Adams was in many ways an embodiment of NI's ability to change its violent cruel ways.

Whilst the crime was unspeakable. I cannot see this prosecution as being constructive in this most delicate of situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:16 AM

Is there a statute of limitations on murder?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:37 AM

What 'prosecution' is this?

He's not even been charged yet, he's just being questioned.

Besides, it's not the police's role to make political decisions. If there is evidence that someone may have committed a criminal offence, it is their duty to investigate.

The Public Prosecution Service decides if a prosecution should be made.

#, not as far as I am aware.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:37 AM

OK, let us suppose that there is legitimate reason to investigate Adams, although I don't believe there is. What do we do with these situations I have taken from an article in Irish Central?

It seems the only alleged crimes being heavily pursued are those on the nationalist side, with little or no attention to atrocities on the other side.

Thanks to the ill-conceived Boston College oral history project the spooks now have another ream of tapes full of allegations from long ago that cannot possibly be proven, mostly from people who are now dead.

Take a bow BC, Ed Moloney and Anthony McIntyre – you have done a wonderful job on behalf of British spookdom allowing them to whip up a whole new round of empty charges.

Meanwhile, nothing on the nationalist side. The Pat Finucane murder? No action.

The Loughinisland Massacre during the 1994 World Cup game between Ireland and Italy? No action.

The Dublin/Monaghan bombings of 1974 that left 33 dead? No handover of papers from the British government as promised. Oops.

The top human rights attorney was killed, as were six innocent men, including an 87-year-old watching a football match, as were 33 innocent civilians in Dublin and Monaghan yet there has been no resolution whatever.

Talk about one law for the Brits.

ESPN2 aired an excellent program on the Loughinisland case this week called "Ceasefire Massacre."

The documentary showed that the killings reek of high level British security involvement. Even former UVF figure Billy Hutchinson conceded on the program there was something very fishy.

But good luck if you are seeking a follow-up. So many of the killings during the dirty war were carried out by gunmen acting on the orders of high level secret British forces who covered their tracks well.

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/niallodowd/Why-Gerry-Adams-arrest-is-a-complete-farce.html#ixzz30TF66GFu
Follow us: @IrishCentral on Twitter | IrishCentral on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 14 - 10:08 AM

If there is evidence, hard evidence and not just the words from an oral history project, it should acted upon. If there was I'd assume that it would have surfaced before now.

If there is no such evidence, and from the news I've read there seems not to be, there is no reason to hold Adams.

In an oral history project anything can be said. I'm going to admit to killing Lincoln and have a "fling" with Queen Victoria before she married dull ol' Albert; that's why she let me sneak into Windsor Palace at night: I actually fathered all of her children. And I ordered the St. Valentine's Day rub-out in Chicago.

Facts do not (usually) concern an oral history project.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 14 - 12:33 PM

yeh well that reaction from Irish Central is just exactly the sort of inflammatory bollocks that's so scary. and presumably that's just the start.

of course there will be evidence of all kinds of shit. adams's guilt is at best - a legal nicety. and you could dig around for loyalist atrocities, and presumably find it. god knows the motives and methods of both sides were openly and unapologetically attested to at the time.

the question is - who is stirring the shit, at this precise moment in time, and what is their motivation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 May 14 - 12:44 PM

let us suppose that there is legitimate reason to investigate Adams, although I don't believe there is

If there is no such evidence, and from the news I've read there seems not to be

So, Big Mick and Rapparee, from over 4,000 miles away, with no idea whatsoever as to what the PSNI may or may not know, you consider yourselves to be qualified to stand in judgement.

That's nice...

You may be right, but you also may be wrong. I live a great deal closer to these events than you, and try to keep an open mind on this issue.

I suggest that you well might do the same. But I don't suppose that you will...

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 14 - 01:27 PM

Sorry, Al, but I disagree. The British activities in the North are not, IMO, open to debate. Their culpability in abetting Loyalist para's is no more open for debate than is the culpability of the US in our supposed "war on terror". The record is clear. And it is legitimate, if they are attempting to go after Adams to ask why they have not spent the same kind of vigor on the Loyalists. If we are ever to see an end to the bollocks in the North of Ireland, it's people must perceive justice to be even handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 14 - 01:40 PM

Not that I keep close tabs on this sort of thing, I seem to remember the arrest of Mark Haddock in recent weeks. He was described in the press as 'a prominent loyalist'. He was charged with the murder of a number of catholic men.

Things are not as one sided as some will have you believe.

Who's stirring shit? Well, the family of Jean McConville for one, eight people who lost their mother as a child. They are looking for justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 14 - 01:55 PM

"They are looking for justice."
And the rest of us are looking for permanent peace, and we are a hairsbreadth from it.
The timing of this is not unconnected with the forthcoming European Elections.
I remember being outraged at the setting up of the Peace and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, and the the thought of ll those bastards getting away with decades of crimes under Apartheid - looks like we could do with one here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:00 PM

The Forum for Peace and Reconcilliation ran for over a decade until the powers that be thought it had run its course.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:16 PM

I have long thought there was something very nasty about Adams. The law of libel being what it is I'm not going to be specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:25 PM

"I have long thought there was something very nasty about Adams"
Whatever your thoughts Richard, it really isn't the best time to behave like this
What would 'Her Maj (Gawd bless 'er) and the Dook' say after all their efforts to bring some sort of stability to these islands - never mind law suits - I'm sure you wouldn't like to be walking around with a polo stick up your jaxie.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:30 PM

it is not northern Ireland that has the violent and cruel ways, its England and the british empire and it's last gasp at conquering Ireland. the English have been bringing violence and war to Ireland for over nine hundred years.

I await the killers from bloody sunday to be charged.

this is selective prosecution against those who resist british military capitalism. while allowing the racist killing by the british army in northern ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:41 PM

Please don't get carried away - Gerry Adams offered to cooperate with the police in this matter.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:44 PM

well all I can say is that we've been debating the actions of our forces and security forces, Mick. its a democracy - they can't stop us.

after all its our young men who were being murdered by both sides. the so called loyalists rubbed out a fair number of English soldiers. it was never a white hats versus the black hats sort of business. both sides were bloody scary.

I remember the Irish Times was quite amusing about GA's memoirs -noting the many circumlocutions and omissions. there's nasty stuff in all our memoirs, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:51 PM

olly old pal, most of us would breathe a sigh of relief if Ireland north and south drifted off into the atlantic. bodhran bangers, fruity tenors, riverdance, the lot.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: selby
Date: 01 May 14 - 04:34 PM

Gerry Adams is a shrewd political animal, whether he did or didn't have anything to do with the murder, I am sure he knows to move the peace process forward he needs (as he did) to cooperate with the police.Unfortunately people soon want to castigate both sides the majority throwing bricks are like me have no idea of what went on during the troubles. Both sides should be praised for using due process of LAW to try and bring closure to this sad episode
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 01 May 14 - 05:16 PM

Firstly Gerry Adams WAS the Commander in Chief of the army.

He worked his way through Seamus Twoney,Joe Cahal and Joe O'Hagan to gain control of the army.

There were two types of people went into the cages of Long Kesh, political activists and army volunteers. Adams always wanted control of both, he was always a political activist primarily. Ivor Bell once said "Never let the tail wag the dog" he was right.

Regarding the McConville murder, that was wrong, yes there were issues concerning her lifestyle and social life, but I repeat, it was wrong to execute her.

Adams was involved in the decisions concerning this case. Brendan Hughes went to his grave saying it, I knew Brendan and believe him. Ivor Bell also stated it, Ivor has his faults, believe me, but he was in a position to know.

Adams presented himself to the station, it was nothing more than a PR stunt to improve BRITISH Sinn Fein's standing among republican communities with the elections coming up in a few weeks time. British Sinn Fein activists are getting pounded on the doorsteps, this is a stunt to make Adams one of the boys again.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 14 - 05:34 PM

well lets hope you're right, and that's all the significance this has.


oooooh...playing with fire though!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 05:47 PM

Many people know who was responsible for the slaughter of innocents in Omagh.
The killers still walk free because no-one dare speak out.
They and/or their loved ones would be killed.

The McConville children know who they saw drag away their mother to be tortured and killed.
One son today said they know, but they dared not speak because they and/or their own children would be put to death.

Those cowardly, vicious murderers are now ruling in NI.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:54 PM

The individuals involved in the actual abduction of Mrs.McConville and her murder are not currently sitting in government, just one who is now seated within the government of a different jurisdiction.

As for those currently holding governmental positions in the North of Ireland, they are tokens,clean skins as we call them. The real pull within Sinn Fein takes place in the back rooms of Stormont, they can't roll these guys out to the front benches, they carry luggage containing way too many historical rattling skeletons, Unionists would never sit in the same room as them and the press would have a field day.

Two senior members of Sinn Fein based at Stormont have within the past few weeks taken a case of unfair dismissal against the party, I do hope it reaches the courts, the water from that laundry wash will expose a few party members for who they really are.

I have no doubt a sizable out of court financial settlement will be offered with a "keep it shut" clause.I could write a book on them.

Great site by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:32 PM

I said, "if there is hard evidence." An oral history project is NOT hard evidence.

"I remember Big Mick killing women in Whitechapel in the '80s."
"Ed T. was Margaret Thatcher's secret lover."
"Big Al smuggled cocaine into Helsinki back in the '70s."

Oral history, and like an oral contract not worth the paper it's written on.

Remember I said "hard evidence." Not the recorded words of someone, but evidence that could stand up in court. Even circumstantial evidence can convict:

I see you go into a windowless room with someone. The door is shut and locked. There is a gunshot. Breaking open the door I see you standing over a dead, bleeding body. You are holding a pistol that has just been fired -- there's a faint curl of smoke coming from the barrel.

All the evidence is based upon circumstances, but the totality of the evidence says you shot and killed the other person.

Now supposed I saw the shooting in a mirror when I was standing on the front step (the doors to the room being open). I'm an eyewitness.

But the HARD evidence would be your fingerprints on the gun, ballistics linking the bullet to the gun you are holding, fresh nitrate deposits on your hands, etc.

I am making NO judgement as to where Adams is guilty or not, much less if he is innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:56 AM

"bodhran bangers, fruity tenors, riverdance, the lot....."
And thereby hangs the centuries old problem Al - the British sense of superiority - bring back Bernard Manning, I say!
"Oral History"
Yes - it is relevant to this - quite apart from giving a voice to those who no-one bothers to ask.
Much of the work done by the 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission' in South Africa centered around allowing 'ordinary people' (if there are such beings) to have their say and voice their grievances under Apartheid.
'Oral testimony' helped prevent a vengeful bloodletting.
The McConville murder was a horrendous crime, as was the 'Trick-or-Treat massacre in Greysteel, (8 killed, 13 injured) or the Dublin and Monaghan bombings (33 killed and 300 injured), or the Shankill Road bomb.... and so ad infinitum.
The crocodile tears shed for the McConvilles, from the usual suspects - who would like things to stay the same so that the "nice days out" on the 'Glorious Twelfth' can continue, are little more than cries for revenge.
This has to stop somewhere and now seems as good an opportunity as any to take advantage of the work that has been done so far.
It is humbling to remember that the father of one of the victims of the Omagh bombing, Gordon Wilson, dedicated the rest of his life to campaigning for peace, and not seeking revenge for his beautiful daughter.
Would that some of his spirit (Christian - I'm led to understand) managed to touch some of our resident blood-letters.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 02 May 14 - 05:41 AM

No one has the monopoly on suffering. I have heard men of God preach of the evils of the IRA, next day they were standing in a bowler hat and sash demanding their right to walk through an area in which they had no support and receiving medals for doing so while residents of that area were locked in their homes for up to three days due to the massive security operation (Garvaghey Road).

I myself have attended many wakes and funerals of people taken long before their time, none of them were victims of the IRA. Many within the community attended funerals of loved one who were victims of the IRA.

It is like table tennis over here, politicians and organizations promoting their own brand of injustice and recalling a selective history. Point scoring exercises help no one.

If we don't draw a line under the past we can never move on. Yes it means individuals and members of the security forces will never stand before a judge, set the bar at 1998 when the agreement was signed.

I simply don't have the answers, no one has, the blame game is different in both communities.

I was told this morning (I am serious) that Gerry Adams told his solicitor he is giving consideration to shaving his beard off, there are many like myself who would be more than willing to assist in that !

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:35 AM

I had a lot of time for Bernard Manning. He played clubs that scared the shit out of most performers - particularly the 'comedy is the new rock n roll' contingent.

however - Jim you are so endearing when you tell me off! I really am sorry about being superior. I promise not to do so good.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:58 AM

A suspect in a murder case has been questioned.

I have no issue with the politics, none whatsoever with celebrity either. The high profile he has will be a factor, except to the family who want closure. The sensitivity around such a suspect is irrelevant to them. If he isn't part of the murder or conspiracy, I hope the police carry on looking.

The rule of law applies, and applies both sides of the border for that matter.

Yes, I see the propaganda opportunity, but if a woman is murdered, the police should try to find those responsible and protect society from them. If Gerry Adams has a case to answer to, then justice must follow its course. If they haven't a reason to detain him, then he will have the oxygen of publicity.

Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 02 May 14 - 12:46 PM

Gerry Adams will most likely be charged with IRA membership later this evening or tomorrow morning. An extension to detain him was granted this afternoon, he will be released on bail by tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 02 May 14 - 01:10 PM

It will only be a matter of time until Martin McGuinness the deputy First Minister will be questioned about the murder of Frank Hegarty.

McGuinness must know his popularity in his native Derry is at an all time low due to his recent UK visit. I would imagine some of this former friends will be more than willing to supply the necessary evidence required.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 14 - 04:51 PM

You remind me of another motorcyclist who used to post here.
More mellow maybe.
Less dogmatic, more pragmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Fossil
Date: 02 May 14 - 06:08 PM

I was in London and just round the corner when an IRA bomb went off at the Old Bailey in 1973. And my office in Heron Quays was partly wrecked by the bomb at Docklands South Quay in 1996. So having seen what the effect of high explosives on innocent humans can do, I have an interest in ensuring that the cease-fire remains permanent. And so, I think, do most people.

I feel that there have been very few opinions expressed on this forum which have been helpful to the peace process and many that have tried as hard as they can to be inflammatory. Prod or Fenian, Irish or Brit, or even American Irish, you have an opinion, no doubt. But lay it aside for now, times have moved on. We need to forgive and forget and if you can't do that, you are no worse than the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 May 14 - 11:24 PM

An extradition demand should be placed by Saudi Arabia. They have a valid claim.



Sincerely,
Gargoyle

some nations lost their intestinal fortitude decades ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:23 AM

"times have moved on"
I too was living in London throughout the mainland campaign; I saw some of the damage and remember the tension caused at the time.
It surely is time things moved on and all this was brought to a conclusion.
It looked like it was likely to happen with the knees-up at Windsor and the positive noises being made on both sides.
I admit, I am not looking forward to the forthcoming 'Glorious Twelfth' displays of superiority - I hope they don't cause the problems that the 'flag' demos caused, but things really seemed to be taking a turn for the better here.
The suspicion is that the timing of Adams' arrest is not unconnected with the forthcoming European elections - a cynical political move rather than one to give the McConville family 'justice'
Jean McConvilles body was discovered 10 years ago - it seems a bit of a coincidence that it's taken this long and at this particular point in time to make an arrest.
I don't particularly look forward to demands for the perpetrators of the Bloody Sunday massacre, or all the other atrocities that are known about, but not yet acted on.
Let's at least get some sort of long-term peaceful future under way before any further steps are acted on - and when they are, let them be justice for all the families - or even better, let's move on.
I hope this doesn't have the same effect as the Israeli's behaviour has had on the Middle East peace negotiations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:37 AM

Fossil: "We need to forgive and forget..." That's easily said, but not, presumably, by the family involved. Surely only they can decide to forgive, I doubt whether they can ever forget.
It seems to me that this attitude of trying to keep things steady and looking to the future, turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed, is rather placatory and not very edifying. Like giving a tiger a nice piece of meat in the hope that it won't bite you. These people (on both sides) who killed and maimed are evil criminals, and by 'forgetting' what they did we almost condone it. I feel that the Law must take its course. It's no good just hoping they'll be sensible and peaceable from now on. They probably won't. But by pursuing them in the courts, at least one is maintaining the Law of the land. No-one is above that, not even powerful terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:59 AM

"But by pursuing them in the courts, at least one is maintaining the Law of the land"
Not that simple Eliza
The "law of the land" was broken by all sides during the 'Troubles', not least by the British army who facilitated assassinations and slaughtered innocent people.
We know the perpetrators of The Bloody Sunday massacre now - are we going to have to wait for peace until they are brought to justice and their victims' families are given closure.
If that is the case, none of us will ever see peace in our lifetimes - nor will our children.
The South Africans had the right idea - it prevented an on-going bloodbath - more victims, more grieving families, more tit-for-tat violence.
"And we started all over again" as the song says.
This is, I believe, a political ploy to influence a forthcoming election.
The terrorists here in Ireland are no longer powerful - but they will be if this kicks off again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:11 AM

Forgive and forget what some saw as military campaigns, yes. Probably, and when John Major and Tony Blair epitomised the sense of moving on, I could and still can see the point.

Murdering a woman is not the act of a soldier though. It is the act of a criminal. When you move on, you take civilisation with you, not leave it behind. If he has a case to answer then answer it. If he hasn't, move on and find those who have.

The political timing hasn't gone unnoticed, but if we let politics dictate the pace of the judiciary, we are stuffed anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:29 AM

Jean McConvilles body was discovered 10 years ago

Irrelevant.
It was known she was dead, and forensic evidence (except of torture and mutilation) probably not found.

The tapes have only recently become available and another suspect was charged just weeks ago.

Conviction will require people to talk, in spite of being terrorised to keep quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: selby
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:34 AM

Saddened to see that the media is reporting that Sinn Fein is warning of fresh violence and that the peace process is in danger. It appears to me that it is in the public interest that Gerry Adams to be questioned at length for ALL parties. As I have said before I do not understand how Northern Ireland as a country functions on hatred and mistrust. In fact who wants what now? is violence so deeply rooted in the country that the first reaction to anything is violence can no one move forward? That is a view that I perceive living in England can anyone tell me different?
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:52 AM

Besides the Boston tapes, the late Dolours Price did an interview with a local person (amateur project) and it graphically details the events concerning the late Mrs.McConville. Her family are in receipt of this tape, I would imagine the police would be too. It is damming.

As I said, Sinn Fein have been taking a pounding on the doorsteps recently from republicans during canvassing for the forthcoming local government elections and the European elections.

Many republicans have issues with the party regarding policing and the lack of responsive action regarding the recent flag protests, something a high court judge recently criticized the police for.

Also for attending functions with members of the Royal family and Martin McGuinness referring to new wave republicans as Treacherous scum"

Sinn Fein have focused previous election campaigns on the S.D.L.P. vote with some success. S.D.L.P. voters tend to be middle class church going Catholics, the fact Sinn Fein have come out recently in support of same sex marriages and stated they are pro abortion could see a decline in that vote.

I still see the arrest of Adams as a stunt, this matter had to be addressed with him officially. As I said yesterday, he will be charged with membership and released, this token gesture could take the strain of party canvassers and elevate Adams standing among some republicans. Regarding actual convictions for murder, that is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 14 - 05:21 AM

Well, well; trust Jim to drag Israel into the argument somehow [03·23 AM]. Bit of a one-trick pony, eh?

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 May 14 - 06:20 AM

the point is - by some miracle - we have brought up a generation of kids who haven't grown up with the terror as part of their everyday lives. whatever the rights and wrongs - don't lets jettison that considerable achievement.

it took guts and vision - not the least by people like Gerry Adams to get that far - what ever his previous sins. he did lead his people out of the quagmire that he had led them into.

I can remember all the relatives of the hunger strikers calling him every name under the sun for embracing the peace progress, albeit gingerly.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 06:57 AM

"Murdering a woman is not the act of a soldier though. It is the act of a criminal."
Doesn't make any difference to the situation in hand Musket - especially as the torture and mutilation you mention came about directly as the Army's collaboration with the UVF
The shooting down of unarmed demonstrators was a criminal act and has been shown to heave been so.
Adams could have been arrested at any time if there had been a shred of real evidence against him - he wasn't - and to date there is no indication that any new evidence has come to light.
It is firmly believed that this is a political ploy connected to the forthcoming elections.
This morning's paper carries a report of the existence of a hard-line cabal within the Police Service of Northern Ireland with links to the DUP and a hard-line party named The Traditional Ulster Voice, who are opposed to the peace settlement and wish to influence the forthcoming local and European elections.
The Republicans are talking about a withdrawal of cooperation with the PSNI and we are not yet into the marching season up North.
Utterly stupid!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:03 AM

Adams could have been arrested at any time if there had been a shred of real evidence against him - he wasn't - and to date there is no indication that any new evidence has come to light.

The is now no evidence except testimony.
We know why there has been none of that before.
How do you know what has come to light?
Perhaps Bell has opened up.
Perhaps the family have identified people and they have talked.
Perhaps others have come forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:29 AM

It is firmly believed that this is a political ploy connected to the forthcoming elections.

Firmly believed by who Jim?
I thought it was Adams who voluntarily chose this moment to go to the police.
I thought a judge had agreed that further questioning was justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:32 AM

"Firmly believed by who Jim?"
Piss off Keith - you are now attemptig to filibust on two threads at once
The information is available look it up for yourself or **** of and take your "No Surrender" with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:41 AM

"Well, well; trust Jim to drag Israel into the argument somehow"
Oh - come on Mike - the parallels are there and have already been made by others in our press
You really are old enough to know better than this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:42 AM

No answer then.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:20 PM

I sometimes feel like a dog without a kennel over here. I have been disillusioned with Sinn Fein for some time. I am near afraid to say that these days because you gain the unwarranted title of being a "dissident".

I also think any new campaign by the various groups engaging in an armed struggle is futile, they are going nowhere besides Maghaberry Prison or Portlaoise Jail. As soon as a group is set up, it is infiltrated, every operation they seem to plan ends at a police checkpoint with three or four arrests. I doubt the police depend on a crystal ball.

Ivor Bell is no lover of Adams, but I believe him when he said he never spoke throughout his interviews. Mrs. McConville should never have been murdered, a typical example of the actions of this individual who couldn't see the consequences of his actions, in fact he couldn't see past his ego in those days.

There are that many conspiracy theories over here, we could export them.

I had a doorstep debate with a new face on the block for Sinn Fein last week, he was boasting about how they embraced policing and influenced decisions, I can only imagine how he feels now after the arrest.

I think we are paying too much attention to the SF soap-opera as they are acting as if it is the end of the world. Was McGuinness boasting or did he make a blunder when he spoke publicly of his new "friends in very high places." Inviting him to toast the Queen might be a good indicator that they are grooming him for a new role, who knows.

I am curious as to why SF supporters don't question this confusing relationship the party have with the higher echelons of the British establishment. McGuinness is not a head of state he is 2nd fiddle in an extremely volatile Assembly.

I remain indifferent to Adams' voluntary detention as SF has been extremely consistent with their unconcerned policy of other republicans being arrested. Now their leader handed himself over to police the apologist Mc Guinness is not condemning the police instead he has deliberately hyped his star wars theory that a "minority of the dark forces" are behind Adams arrest.

Placing minimal blame on the law makes absolutely no sense. he is suggesting that a rogue element within the police are out to get SF. So his friends in high places within the police are the good cops and those who Adams handed himself over to are the bad cops. Is he saying that the policing they agreed to is somehow faulty when it comes to high ranking members of his party ?



I repeat I see this as a PR stunt to attempt to get the republican vote in the local and European elections on the 22nd May.

They keep repeating that Adams handed himself in. If SF see this as a pre-election nightmare then they should ask the leader what vision he had.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 May 14 - 02:59 AM

How the heck can the police question anyone for three days...and, according to some sources, for 17 hours a day!
surely, that's a form of torture!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 May 14 - 03:34 AM

Some sources is a euphemism for "this story is getting crusty so let's invent some."

Taped interviews 17 hours in length would be inadmissible in court. He could voluntarily talk for that time but he would have to be advised that he was offered breaks, and that anything he said over that period may not be used either by prosecution or his defence.

Code D. Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.



(There is a NI act that will supersede PACE but contains the same. As this is being pursued as murder, terrorism legislation doesn't apply , if I have read it right.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:32 AM

"Taped interviews 17 hours in length would be inadmissible in court."
It is doubtful that this will ever come to court, and if the 'conspiracy theorists' are right - that is not the object of the exercise anyway.
The Old Guard in the Northern Ireland Police have never paid much attention to 'the book' anyway - they "do it their way" as 'Ol' Blue Eyes' used to sing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:11 AM

The BBC reported that former Northern Ireland First Minister Lord Trimble has said the biggest threat to peace in Northern Ireland would be if Scotland were to vote for independence.

Lord Trimble, the former Ulster Unionist leader, was speaking on the Daily Politics Show.
However, claims by the BBC that Lord Trimble had said Scottish independence would lead to a return to violence in the province were challenged by the former First Minister himself who accused the BBC of attributing views to him that he did not hold.

Speaking on Good Morning Scotland, Lord Trimble confronted BBC Scotland presenter Bill Whiteford who had earlier repeated the claim, saying: "Unfortunately you are not the only person who has made this mistake."

Referring to several BBC reports claiming he had said a Yes vote would mean a return to violence, he added: "I did not say that. It is not my view."

Referring specifically to his original interview given to the BBC Daily Politics Show in which he had spoken of a Yes vote causing strains and division in Northern Ireland, Lord Trimble said this did not mean a return to violence.

On the contrary, he added, Scottish independence would lead to the complete opposite of what the BBC was reporting and reduce further the possibility of a return to violence.

So another unbiased article by the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:19 AM

Warming up for the Glorious Twelfth it would seem Jim
Today's papers have claimed that the questioning of Gerry Adams is concentrating on his speeches and is aimed at charging him with membership of the IRA
So much for "new evidence" on the Mcconville murder case.
Adams has long been accused of being a member of the IRA and his speeches have always been on record.
He could have been charged with anything connected with this at any time over the last several decades - timing is everything, as they say!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:45 AM

I've been reflecting on this for some time, and have read carefully the comments of everyone on this thread, and I'm beginning to see that probably nothing would be gained by pursuing Adams through the Courts, and much would be lost. I particularly liked the comment that a whole generation of children have grown up in relative peace and harmony, which is immeasurably valuable. I have to admit I was perhaps wrong to condone Adams' arrest. Mandela's example is before us, in forgetting and starting anew. And he had every reason to let his bitterness and wasted years in prison urge him on to retribution. But I do still feel for the family of this murdered woman. No-one can make them forget or forgive.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 07:36 AM

Adams has not been charged with anything.
He is being questioned about an appalling murder, and who doubts he has the best and most assertive of lawyers at his side?

Jim, do you doubt he was IRA and high ranking?
Do you believe he knew nothing about this woman's abduction, torture and murder on his patch.
Could he have at least told her children where she was?
(IRA told them she had left them for an English soldier.)
Honest answers please Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 09:00 AM

The British establishment has never copped on that thuggish heavy-handedness simply doesn't work in Ireland
In 1916 a group of eccentrics took over the GPO and held it for a week.
When the siege was over the rebels had to be protected from screaming mobs of Dublin women demanding to know why they weren't "helping our lads in the trenches".
With brutish predictability, they were all placed before the firing squad and executed - the most prevailing image of those times was Connolly tied into a chair because he was too badly wounded to stand.
Within six months these men had been transformed from eccentrics to martyrs; Ireland entered into a war of independence, which led to an unsatisfactory treaty, a civil war and nearly a century of bloody unrest.
When will these morons cop-on.
A settlement has nearly been reached after centuries of conflict - this sort of thuggish insanity will only need to more body-bags.
Keith
There is already a support for Adams on the streets of the North and murals going back up on the walls - last week Sinn Féin would have had to fight for that support at the ballot box.
Why not try addressing the problem in hand rather than joining the marchers in their howl for vengeance.
As a supporter of Israel - you should know that states are built on terrorism and last year's terrorists are tomorrow's national heroes.
I don't subscribe to that sort of garbage, but you, with your permanent defence of Nationalist bloodletting, most certainly do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 04 May 14 - 09:55 AM

Good article in today's Independent. It is the most factual I have read regarding the McConville case.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-photos-link-gerry-adams-to-jean-mcconville-kidnap-gang-30242059.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 03:20 PM

with your permanent defence of Nationalist bloodletting,

As your lies go, that is a particularly nasty one.
You just can't discuss without doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:14 PM

I thought the discussion was fairly well reasoned up til now. Jim - that wasn't nice - none of the people here want to see violence - nationalist or otherwise.

as for the other line about the Brits only having played the one tune - thuggishness and heavy handedness - I would direct you to Adams's own account of how the Wilson government in the Cheyne House talks made every effort to ask them what they wanted - however the Republican deputation totally blew the opportunity - in his words because we were not savvy or mature enough to deal with diplomats and politicians - we just delivered an abrupt statement, and that was it.

when Thatcher and the gung ho types took over. god alone knows what was going on under the counter. everyone was talking no surrender - but deals were being done at every level. and thank god it was - because it was from these deals that the present - what passes for peace - came into being.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:54 PM

There was nothing "un-nice" about it - it is exactly what happened and it is what is happening now
You want to challenge it - go and read a history book - some of us actually lived through it Al.
Keith has defended every single violent Orange March that has taken place since I joined this forum - every one.
He has defended them as "pleasant days out" while there has been bloodlettings on the street.
The last lot we debated, he blamed children for three nights of violence.
You think any of this is not true- look it up - it' all there.
I hewv become sick to the back teeth of these threads being used to defend extremism.
Ireland is on the verge of reaching some sort of compromise and we have more of this shit
No more eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:07 PM

not true Jim.
Why not just discuss one issue at a time instead of always accusing me of having said nasty things, but a long time ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:12 PM

Well he is out, the case has been referred to the DPP (Director of Public Prosecutions) to see what charges can be placed against him if any.

This may be of interest for those seeking more information on the case.
http://thebrokenelbow.com/2014/05/03/boston-tapes-exclusive-content-of-interviews-sought-by-psni-revealed/#comments

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:18 PM

well actually Jim, I was telling you what Gerry Adams himself said about the Cheyne House business - talks initiated very early on by an extremely moderate and sympathetic government who had no truck with Paisley - and got told to fuck off for their trouble.

I don't like to think of the things that happened in my grandparents time , and events they talked about to me as history.....but I suppose it is. the same goes for stuff that happened in my lifetime.

as for Keith - buggered if I am going to research his words of wisdom. he hasn't said anything wildly inflammatory on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:46 PM

Those cowardly, vicious murderers are now ruling in NI.

Well, Keith, it's possibly worth remembering that loyalist murders far outweighed republican murders. Not that I'm justifying any murders. But just thought I'd mention it in the light of your very predictable post. You'll never be on the side of right as long as you live, will you, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:52 PM

I despise them all Steve.
I despise the "Loyalist" butchers every bit as much as the "Republican" ones.
I did not know about the numbers though.
Do you have a source for that?
The Republican paramilitaries killed many more people than any others.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 14 - 08:29 PM

Maybe, one day, before too long, we'll hear why he was held for questioning, and what the outcome was.
Until that time, it seems that this thread is just an opportunity for both sides to re-state their long-held prejudices.
Hardly an enlightening thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 14 - 09:25 PM

Well, Keith, it's possibly worth remembering that loyalist murders far outweighed republican murders.

Now, there you go again, Steve- trying to change what passes for FW Keith's mind with facts.

Its a waste of time at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 14 - 10:04 PM

well its enlightening knowing what everyone's thinking. personally I've been quite surprised bt Keith's fairly moderate tone on this thread. I think we all want the peace to last longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 May 14 - 12:54 AM

"what passes for FW Keith's mind" --

Rather a predictable cliché-ridden slur, eh Greg?

What passes for Greg F's wit, no doubt!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 05 May 14 - 02:56 AM

Odd. One of Keith's posts had me nodding in agreement.

Just the one mind.

I think I'll wander to another thread where I can shout at him and indulge in TCism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 02:59 AM

"he hasn't said anything wildly inflammatory on this thread."
Lynch mob-type statements on matters that are still under investigation by the PSNI on a sensitive issue like this are, as far as I am concerned "wild and inflammatory" - fairly mild, by his standards, but still uncorroborated and obviously partisan (04 May 14 - 07:36 AM) - his record on Ireland speaks for itself.
That you don't 'like to think about what happened in your grandparents time' is your own business - some of us have become part of these discussions because we like to do just that - W.W.1. for instance, was a fairly popular subject, and will remain so throughout this year, no doubt - it's all part of our history (can't remember if you participated in any of those).
As with Keith's, Britain's record in Ireland also speaks for itself - not a subject to be proud of.
Some of us have had our lives shaped by these past events and are what we are because of events that happened in our parents and grandparents lifetimes - ask any "brainwashed" Irish American.
I understand that the results of the Adams' interviews are to be sent to the D.P.P. to see if there are any grounds for prosecution - so far, if seems to have centered around his alleged membership of the I.R.A.
That's the problem with all these discussions - an allegation is made, and before the ink is dry on the paper the accused is dragged out of the jailhouse and the rope is over the tree - lynch-mob mentality.
Whatever the final outcome of this matter, it really isn't the best time to indulge in this type of behaviour - not for those in Britain or for us living in Ireland - we really should have learned this lesson, for our childrens' sakes as well as our own well-being.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:07 AM

Greg, I think that Steve was mistaken about that "fact."
It is a fact that Republican paramilitaries killed many more civilians than the other kind, but no more or less evil and both a blight on Ireland.

The QC in charge of the prosecution service used to be Adam's own lawyer.
I doubt there will be any charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:09 AM

Adams'

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:12 AM

The McConville murder in my opinion was cruel. Hard to imagine the hardship placed on the McConville children particularly the oldest siblings in terms of comforting, reassuring and caring for the younger children before the intervention of social services which saw the family divided. This situation was exacerbated by the secret burial of Jean McConville's remains.


Since Gerry Adams turned up at Antrim PSNI station, by appointment, Sinn Fein have continuously voiced their disgust and opposition to what they define as political policing. This has included threats of withdrawing their support for policing. This would suggest Sinn Fein not only see themselves as being above the law but being above due process despite them pledging their support to the PSNI time and time again, and calling on the wider public to follow their lead.

A question many are asking is how Sinn Fein can expect people to have confidence in policing when they refer to it having a dark-side? When concerns have been raised about the conduct of the PSNI Sinn Fein have released statements saying the PSNI are only doing their job. In all their statements calling for people to support the PSNI I don't remember one single statement Sinn Fein made saying the PSNI has a dark side, well until now.

The fact is these 'politically motivated' assertions by Sinn Fein are only made in cases that involve Sinn Fein members or supporters. If you cast your mind back to when he was released after the 'politically motivated' Stormontgate allegations Denis Donaldson said, "It was political policing and political charges and the fact that we were acquitted today proves that." Shortly after that Donaldson was exposed as an informer for the British security services, and had been for 20 years.

But the politically motivated allegations aren't just limited to Denis Donaldson or Sinn Fein. When Gerry Kelly went land rover surfing and wasn't charged Unionists said it was a politically motivated decision. When Sinn Fein's Padraig Wilson was arrested it was political and when former Derry Sinn Fein Mayor Kevin Campbell's home was raided Sinn Fein demanded an apology because surprise surprise that was political policing too.

And on the subject of Kevin Campbell, I doubt Mr Campbell has been reprimanded for his comment involving Boston College researcher Anthony McIntyre, when he accused the Boston Tapes project of being a 'touting programme'. I would actually question the appropriateness of the language used by this civic leader and former first citizen of Derry.

Sinn Fein held a rally in support of Gerry Adams on Saturday which included the unveiling of a mural in his honour.

My first thought was "aww come on, all this for a three day detention." I for one would question Sinn Fein's lack of consistency, hypocrisy and absence, outside of reactionary lip-service, in the following cases:

Martin Corey was held in prison for almost four years with no charge. Where is their protest over his release conditions which effectively make him a mute internal exile?

Where was Sinn Fein's public opposition when Gerry McGeough was taken from his wife and four young children in one of the most blatant acts of political policing? It was said that McGeough's standing in opposition to Sinn Fein electorally was damaging to them and this was cited by some as the political motivation for his arrest.

Where was the Sinn Fein opposition to the brutal searching of republican prisoner Thomas McWilliams before being taken for medical treatment having suffered a heart attack? Or indeed after undergoing surgery, and despite being under prison guard supervision 24/7 Thomas McWilliams was still brutally and forcibly strip searched on his return to Maghaberry, yet Sinn Fein have remained silent.

Where is Sinn Fein's opposition to the continued use of lengthy pre-trial detention known as remand and draconian bail conditions? After all in cases were people get bail, these are not convicted prisoners, as in the case of Gerry Adams, these people are innocent until proven otherwise.

What I would further question is, now that Gerry Adams has been released will Sinn Fein revert back to their old policy of supporting the police or will they amend their policies in accordance with their current stance?

And finally, in light of all this, is the dark side of the force answerable to the District Policing Partnerships which Sinn Fein chair?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:13 AM

"The QC in charge of the prosecution service used to be Adam's own lawyer."
Corruption in the British Justice system in Ireland - nothing new there.
Te rope is still firmly over the tree as far as the same old, same old are concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:19 AM

Keith, you said
"The QC in charge of the prosecution service used to be Adam's own lawyer.
I doubt there will be any charges. "

You are correct that Northern Ireland's director of public prosecutions, Barra McGrory QC, is a former solicitor for Adams and he has already said publicly that he delegate a decision on the file to his deputy so no, he won't have any role in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:36 AM

Or influence?

Does anyone doubt Adams was IRA and high ranking?
Or believe he knew nothing about this woman's abduction, torture and murder on his patch.
Could he have at least told her orphans where she was?
(IRA told them she had left them for an English soldier.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:00 AM

I thought we were trying to draw a line under the years 1968=-2010.
Murder - OK if its a long time ago
Pinch a girl's bottom on ToTP - now that's another matter

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:12 AM

Adams was running the cages in the Kesh as far back as 1972. He was steel fenced all his life by his cronies, still is.

When you arrived at the camp, you were debriefed by more senior prisoners, Adams had set a security unit up, Freddie Scappaticci was one of them. When you arrived you were brought to the shower hut and questioned, often beaten.

Art McAlinden was the OC OF cage five at that time, a young boy called Paddy Joe Crawford arrived in, he was about 20 years old, he was an orphan, a nice lad, but very immature. Apparently he admitted that he gave information to his interrogators and that sealed his fate.

That night he was found hanging in a hut in Cage 5. Evidence was concocted to suggest he had committed suicide; the RUC's investigation was perfunctory, to say the least, and just 12 days after his murder an inquest jury decided he had "died by his own act".

That has always stuck in me, I would dearly like to see that case investigated. like the McConville case unless you get someone to publicly stand up and give evidence and provide proof, such cases go nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:22 AM

If Keith thinks, with no grounds whatsoever, that a QC can't be trusted to disengage, he has no understanding of how the law works.





Sorry. I just posted another thread under the bleeding obvious category.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:53 AM

Nobody knows what Adams was involved in or what he was responsible for.
It is thirty years since those events and the old guard of the NI police could have arrested him at any time for his activities between then and now for any of his activities - they didn't.
As they say on QI nobody knows.
There have been no arrests over the Bloody Sunday massacre even though the full facts of those events have now been revealed to the full
Keith's - and every bigot's attitude is "if it doesn't produce the result I want it must be bent".
What hope the peace process when you have to deal with this garbage?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 06:41 AM

No-one knows if Adams was IRA?
He was part of an IRA delegation in secret talks with the government in the 70s.
Consider Guest LK867's reports, and the risk he runs making them.
The eldest McConville said "The dogs in the street know."

Abduction, interrogation under torture, execution, secret burial.
It is inconceivable that senior ranks of the Belfast Brigade were not aware of the operation.
They would have ordered it and been kept informed of the progress.

Sinn Fein state that it is right to continue to investigate the crime.
They support it, until it starts to get anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 07:23 AM

So waht do we have - condemned if he is charged - condemned if he isn't charged - lose-lose as far as you and your Billy-Boy friends are concerned.
Why the fuck did Madge invite this scum to Windsor in the first place
You Christians do get me sometimes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 07:47 AM

I don't have to guess about Adams role within the army, I know it. I can't understand how the media has allowed him to get away with publicly lying about it and other matters.

Take these examples,

He told the family of Jean McConville, that he was in jail when she was abducted – but he had been out of the Kesh for over ten months !

He publicly claimed that a vivid prison memory was singing a Monty Python song, Always Look on the Bright Side of Life, with other inmates, after being brutally beaten by prison officers. The song was not written until a year after his release !

He spoke of supporting Aine, his niece, when she told him she had been abused by her father, Liam, his brother. He told her, "Our Liam can't cope with life and I am trying to get him to meet you, but you know he is a man under stress and has become reclusive" when in fact Liam was running a youth project in Beechmount, five minutes walk from Gerry Adams's home and the Sinn Fein Press Centre !


If Gerry Adams is charged it will be based on evidence from his own pen and his own actions (secret IRA talks with the British) and not anything coming from the memoirs of deceased IRA personnel.

Why are SF complaining about the arrest of Adams? Gerry has said for years now that anyone with information pertaining to the murder of Jean Mc Conville should bring that information to the PSNI even anonymously,then he complained at last nights press conference about police referring to information from witnesses "R" "S" and "B" . Maybe just maybe someone has taken him at his word.

Martin Mc Guinness stood on the steps of Stormont with Peter Robinson and head of the PSNI and announced that anyone who had information on those republicans who planted bombs or shot PSNI officers were to bring that information to the PSNI because these republicans were traitors . So if this is what they said then why are they now complaining?

I wish they would make their minds up. Sinn Fein's Kevin Campbell (a former mayor of Derry City and close friend of Adams) made a comment on Twitter referring to the Boston tapes as a "Touting Programme". As Derry's former first citizen, exactly what advice does Mr Campbell have for people who may be in possession of information pertaining to the circumstances surrounding the death of Jean McConville or other IRA activity carried out prior to the Good Friday Agreement?


In my opinion, they were in such a race to respectability that they discarded all and sundry around them and joined the opposition. "Come into my Empire said the spider to the fly"

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 08:30 AM

Jim, I am not part of your mad sectarian divide, and probably will never understand it.

Presumably "Billy-Boy friends" is a term of sectarian abuse.
You show your prejudice against the Unionist community.
You would never use an equivalent term against Nationalist people.
You are part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 09:06 AM

"You show your prejudice against the Unionist community."
No - it refers to the hard line bigots within Ulster - those who will be aggressively demonstrating their )superiority) in a couple of months time and those whose demonstrations you have described as "harmless days out" (or similar)
Your last support for this was to blame three days of rioting on "children"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 09:08 AM

Correction
Your last outing was your support for the Unionist Flag riots over Christmas
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 10:04 AM

I think you are a sectarian bigot Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 10:16 AM

I have no religion - my "bigotry" is aimed only at religious bigots like yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:15 AM

You come across as very anti the Unionist people, but I will say no more except on the issue under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:31 AM

okay - we've sorted out that you two don't reckon too much of each other.

now - do you have an opinion on this matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:53 AM

You've had my opinion Al - wake up at the back there
This arrest has been a political stunt to influence in the forthcoming elections
It has been suggested from inside the PSNI that the instigators are a cabal made up of the old guard RUC - which makes sense
Pay attention boy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 05 May 14 - 12:42 PM

Interesting that Adams press conference was held in the aptly named "Balmoral Hotel" owned by none other than P O Neill !

Elections local government and European occur this month, they always brought a certain tension over there between the D.U.P. and Ulster Unionists, these days it is between the T.U.V. and the D.U.P.

The S.D.L.P. and Sinn Fein used to cut hell out of eachother. It was a battle of Republicanism verse Nationalism. Republicanism is the product of the 18th century, modernity and Enlightenment whereas the nation is an invention of the 19th century. It is the democratic element which distinguishes Republicanism from Nationalism. Republicanism is based on the "people" (demos), nationalism on the "nation" (ethnos). Republicanism is based on "citizenship" whereas nationalism on "nationality". If dissent is central to democracy it logically has to be central to republicanism. However the same cannot be automatically said of nationalism. If nationalism is not necessary democratic, dissent will not be necessarily part of it.

Today a fag paper could not separate the so called political and ideological differences between Sinn Fein and the SDLP. The T.U.V. are growing in strength as a more militant unionist voice. The D.U.P. are becoming the Ulster Unionist Party.

The GFA/BA is a Berlin style wall around any future attempts at a united Ireland, the people spoke, 71% wanted it so we have to accept that.

The Labour Party cuddled up to every party and wet nursed them during their term in office, this current coalition government doesn't give a toss.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 01:35 PM

The family say they may bring a civil action against Adams.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 14 - 02:17 AM

A civil action is probably the family's best bet at targeting Gerry Adams as in a civil case "the balance of probability" is the deciding factor as opposed to the "beyond reasonable doubt" required in a criminal action. In a civil action the onus on making their case falls to both parties in a criminal case it is entirely up to the prosecution to make theirs.

Against Adam's idiotic claims of "innocence" over the matter you have the testimony "evidence" given on tape and in interviews by two people who were former members of the Belfast "Unknowns" Price and Hughes who quite openly admitted that their motivation for giving the interviews was revenge on Adams for what they saw as the "sell out" of the GFA, both state quite clearly that Gerry Adams was their "Officer Commanding" and that it would have been impossible for the abduction, torture and execution of Mrs Jean McConville to have taken place without the express order or sanction of Adams in his capacity as "officer commanding". Unfortunately both these "witnesses" are dead.

Also drawing deliberate attention to Adams involvement are two "live" witnesses Rogers and Gilmour who in light of Adams voluntarily handing himself in to the PSNI for questioning have refused to make statements or give evidence, in a civil action, their silence now compared to what they stated earlier will be what will condemn Adams.   If you remember correctly the same thing happened with the McCarthy murder and the Quinn murder, shed loads of people "know" but no-one is talking – such are the joys of living in communities controlled by thugs and gangsters (Any claim that the Republican or Nationalist paramilitaries ever had any mandate from the people of Ireland to act as they did was blown clear out of the water by the GFA and in the results of the referendum in the Republic that followed it).

Those who were responsible for the death of Jean McConville both dead and alive will be tried for it and they will the found guilty – the chief witnesses against them will be Mrs McConville's own children who witnessed her abduction, they can positively identify those responsible, it does not have to prove that it was those people who unlawfully killed their mother, only that they were part of the trail of events that led to her death and as such accessories before the fact.

Christmas is correct, as things stand for Gerry Adams now it is a "lose-lose" situation no matter what happens the ghost of Jean McConville will hound him until the day he dies, as a politician he is finished. The murder of Mrs Jean McConville was described as crime against humanity, one of a number perpetrated by Adams and the men and women under his command ("Bloody Friday was the worst).

Irrespective of what Adams claims and no matter how hard he protests his innocence Adams has a proven track record as a liar and as Guest LK867 says everyone knows that Adams was a prominent figure in the PIRA and a commander in Belfast at the relevant time, it doesn't have to be proven to the population at large. Behind his back the whispers will always be that he was the murderer of Jean McConville an innocent widowed mother of ten children and the shielder and protector of a child molester – that will be Gerry Adam's legacy.

I have always stated that this day would dawn for Gerry Adams I have waited for it for near enough 42 years – now the law should take its course be it criminal or civil it matters not one jot to me the only thing that matters is that the family of Mrs Jean McConville obtain some form of closure.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 14 - 02:29 AM

Oh dear - now they've moved in the military our kids don't have a chance of seeing peace in their lifetimes, let alone in ours.
Vengeance if mine sayeth Terrytoon.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 14 - 04:23 AM

Teflon Adams walks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 06 May 14 - 04:29 AM

To a republican like myself who has long since stopped buying into the SF line and indeed the notion that for Ireland, republicanism is the Holy Grail and the only true way forward, events over the Adams arrest last week were fascinating.

Republicanism has become a catch-all, tired and much abused political 'philosophy' which all manner of carpetbaggers can legitimately claim as their own. Worse still physical force republicanism it seems to me always ends up in the same stable at the end of the political race, namely the runners up enclosure; usually led there by scoundrels of the highest order after good men have been executed, slaughtered and betrayed. It was with this in mind that I watched events unfold over the four days Gerry Adams spent in the custody suite in Antrim.

Big Bobby Storey was wheeled out to put the wind up the establishment and I'm sure they didn't need a TV to hear him in England he roared that loud. How dare they arrest the leader of Irish republicanism? How embarrassing! It became evident that something would have to give. It was a question of was the old RUC still calling the shots or would the English establishment rally to the aide of their new decommissioned, neutered and quarantined 'republican' partners in Ireland?


The best that can be said for all the tout scandals and paedo facilitation that has gone on and the endless lies coming out of SF this decade or more is that the police were trumped by the British political establishment and a wee loyalist mob were totally clueless for the world to see live on Sky News.

Then we had the press conference after Gerry's release. For his part Adams wasn't as smooth as he obviously thought he was yesterday. Perhaps in his haste to make political capital he hadn't given himself, at 65 years of age, sufficient time to get over 33 interviews at the hands of his new best friends.

Had he done so he would not I'm as certain as is possible with a chronic liar, have allowed himself to look so inconsiderate and self-obsessed. 

He tells us he was sitting in his cell thinking about Bobby Sands anniversary (which took place yesterday) and that the food was terrible in the Antrim interrogation suite, but not terrible enough after day two that he didn't fold and get it into him.

No white-house chef, how awfully awful. It was an insight into the man's personality and probably lets us see how much genuine empathy he had with Bobby Sands and his family back in 1981.

Or indeed for his sister when her shop in Dundalk had its locks changed on her in a panic by Adams crew to show their trustworthiness to their new found friends and establishment masters. A sociopathic display if an example is required for psychology students globally.  
In all of this the McConville family whose mother was dragged screaming from her home and murdered in 1972 awaited the outcome of events.

What emerged over the four days surprised and shocked many. Not only did the family know some of those who abducted their mum personally, they have had to suffer this knowledge in silence for decades without any help whatsoever.

This beggars belief when we consider Martin McGuinnes on the steps of Stormont with the PSNI head honcho calling people engaged in physical force republicanism 'traitors to Ireland' and for people to give any information they have to the police. At the time many felt it was a case of 'careful what you wish for'.


SF is now in the precarious position of having to decide if it will support the McConville family in their quest for closure.

IRA volunteers involved in the incident in 1972 may be worried that indeed the SF leadership will do so. There is a precedent for Gerry Adams placing his career before all else. Indeed there are several. The 1981 hunger-strikes when votes became the name of the game and more recently when his brother and dead daddy had to be dispensed with for the greater good of the SF leaders political survival.

Surely SF must assure the family they are under no threat in this new dispensation of total support for the PSNI? The only people to emerge from the last four days with any integrity were the McConville family. How can anyone fail to feel a heartfelt sympathy for them? Let down by the political establishment from the very top live on Sky News no less.


On the election front what we have now is a sectarian electorate in the north once again primed and ready to go. SF will feel the PSNI have been slapped down and the Orange mob made fools of again. In the south we have a society sick to the teeth of the FF/FG/Lab corruption which is grasping like a drowning man for any chance of a change, an alleviation of any sort from the economic nightmare they are enduring. In the midst of never ending austerity and chronic negative equity the parties in government have introduced multi billion euro bailouts for bankers.

They have refused to jail those bankers recently found guilty even as people are jailed for having no TV licences and are having their homes repossessed by the very same banks. Bankers' bonuses continue without shame, paying themselves millions for failure.

On top of property taxes are proposed water charges in a country that hardly goes two days in a row without rain. Yes the time is certainly right for a change in the south of Ireland. It very likely will happen and SF will do extremely well this time out unlike 2007. 
Gerry may feel recent events have helped claw back some of the embarrassment he suffered at the hands of Michael MacDowell back then.

But change that sweeps in paedo facilitators, proven British agents and perpetual liars and self-servers is hardly changing anything at all; is it? If SF and FF are what republicanism continually morphs itself into then I'm happy to say to Gerry Adams, I may represent no-one, but you sure as hell no longer represent me!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 06:29 AM

LK867, Jim believes that your struggle was a religious not a political one.
Would you be prepared to give your view on the "islamic radicalism" thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 14 - 07:04 AM

Howe dare you bring this to another thread and distort what I have said you devious little shit
I saidin the case of Ireland the two were inseparable because of the manner in which religion has been used in Ireland to divide the population "dic#vide and conquor were the exact words I have used
You really are as fanatical as the Muslim extremists you target
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 07:07 AM

Also, Musket claims that most volunteers on both sides were church-going folk.
Was that your experience?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:05 AM

I myself have no problem with any race of people, Muslims or otherwise. I also respect the right of anyone to follow their traditions,( including members of the various orders associated with the Protestant traditions in the North of Ireland) as long as they don't force their will onto others.

Those within the unionist community or of the Protestant faith may have issues with my beliefs and aspirations, I accept that.

I have no time for sectarianism, no true Irish republican should use inflammatory language or commit acts against another individual purely on the grounds of faith or culture.

Regarding the Catholic church, many "old school " republicans were church goers, not something I can say about those I know from the 1970's on. I myself attend weddings and funerals in the Catholic church as I do sadly all too often these days in all denominations, but no, I am not a mass goer myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:17 AM

Thank you.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:25 AM

Fuck me gently.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 12:16 PM

You have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 03:03 PM

This issue is more appropriate here than on the Islamic radicalism thread.

I understood that the Republican movement took up an armed struggle against the Crown to unify Ireland, religion playing no part.

LK867 appears to support that.

Do you still maintain it was a religious conflict Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 14 - 07:30 PM

On the election front what we have now is a sectarian electorate in the north once again primed and ready to go. SF will feel the PSNI have been slapped down and the Orange mob made fools of again. In the south we have a society sick to the teeth of the FF/FG/Lab corruption which is grasping like a drowning man for any chance of a change, an alleviation of any sort from the economic nightmare they are enduring. In the midst of never ending austerity and chronic negative equity the parties in government have introduced multi billion euro bailouts for bankers.

They have refused to jail those bankers recently found guilty even as people are jailed for having no TV licences and are having their homes repossessed by the very same banks. Bankers' bonuses continue without shame, paying themselves millions for failure.

On top of property taxes are proposed water charges in a country that hardly goes two days in a row without rain. Yes the time is certainly right for a change in the south of Ireland. It very likely will happen and SF will do extremely well this time out unlike 2007.
Gerry may feel recent events have helped claw back some of the embarrassment he suffered at the hands of Michael MacDowell back then.

But change that sweeps in paedo facilitators, proven British agents and perpetual liars and self-servers is hardly changing anything at all; is it? If SF and FF are what republicanism continually morphs itself into then I'm happy to say to Gerry Adams, I may represent no-one, but you sure as hell no longer represent me!"
I urge everyone in ireland to vote for independent candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:38 PM

it seems silly to pretend that religion had no part in all this , Keith. if that's what you're saying.

the icon of the rebel priest fighting alongside the croppy boys, is a powerful one -like that of Connolly executed in his chair, the hunger strikers, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 May 14 - 09:12 PM

it seems silly to pretend that religion had no part in all this , Keith. if that's what you're saying.

Yes, that's what FW is saying, and its not silly, its idiotic and offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:20 AM

Religion is strong in Ireland, and there is sectarianism a plenty.
The issue of home rule is not at all religious, but is superimposed on a community divided on sectarian lines.

From "The History Of Sinn Fein and Irish Republicanism." on the Sinn Fein site I linked to on the other thread.

"We are dedicated to the reunification of our Country through political representation and through the election of our members by the people, and for the people of this Island regardless of race or creed.

Modern Irish Republicans trace their political origins to the movement of the United Irishmen (and women, lets be politically correct here as women fought in these battles too!)of the 1790's. The United Irishmen took their inspiration from the French Revolution and fought to break the political connection between Ireland and Britain, believing that only an independent Ireland could guarantee equality and prosperity for the Irish people.
Most leading figures of the United Irishmen were Presbyterians and a key part of their programme was unity between Irish people of all religions and none in the cause of liberty."

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:34 AM

well all that is true Keith. many prominent republicans haven't been Catholics - that much is undeniable.

however - the main bone of contention from the Ulster protestants, the one they always mention - is the prominence of the church -written into the Irish constitution - and the consequent loss of civil liberties guaranteed under British rule.

(lets face it - how many of these Yanks who are always bigging it up about being an Irish republican would like to live in a country where within living memory everything from abortions, contraception and Monty python have been banned?)

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:55 AM

Jean McConville was someone who crossed the sectarian divide.
A Protestant girl who married a Catholic boy.
A brave and hard thing to do. Probably shunned by her old community and clearly never really accepted by her adopted community.
Even her bewildered and terrified little orphans had no friend who cared when she was taken from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:07 AM

OK Al.
You accept that the Republican armed struggle was not religiously motivated, but a political struggle for a United Ireland free of British rule.
Religion played no part in it.

The British Army and RUC fought to maintain the status of NI as a part of UK until a majority against was achieved.
No religion in that either.

The Loyalists fought, as you say, against a religion being imposed on them.
Anti religious then.

It was not in any sense a holy war such as we are seeing being fought in Syria and in Iraq now.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:13 AM

well I dunno that I agree.

the Taliban have similar designs - they want to restrict personal freedoms. for religious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:23 AM

And when you have finished fucking me gently, roll me over and start again.

In Islamic threads of various descriptions, Keith has promoted the idea of religion rather than the more temporal aspects of sectarianism. With Northern Ireland he says the exact opposite.

After all, they are all Christians and in Keith's little world, Christians can't be associated with murder and terrorism. Only Muslims are into that sort of thing eh?

So.... We add religious bigotry to his homophobia. (Not difficult, see his awful posts on Israel.) All we need is racism and misogyny and we have a full house! (Until his club allow women to become Bishops and his continued support for his club, I take misogyny as read.

Looks like that nasty MEP pipped you to the post to fight for Newark Keith.

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:31 AM

Homophobia.
UKIP.
You have to lie about me because you can not challenge anything I actually say.

The Taleban are not in Iraq and Syria.
Sunni and Shia Jihadists (holy warriors) from many countries fight each other for being infidels.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:50 AM

"Do you still maintain it was a religious conflict Jim?"
Of course it was a religious conflict - there has never been any question of this - the Protestant majority was deliberately set against the Catholic minority - the British made sure that this was written into the 1922 treaty
The original aim was to Make Ulster a protestant province of nine counties. but realising that doing so would give Catholics a majority, so they removed three of them, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan.
The six counties were not randomly chosen, they were deliberately selected so that they would remain loyal to The Crown - a "good neighbour".
This led to a Protestant led administration deliberately created to be so by The Treaty.
Who the hell do you think you're telling what is what in Ireland - part of my own family were burned out of Derry and were forced to flee to The South.
The stated aim of the new leadership was to create a Protestant State; minimum property clauses in the voting system restricted the political rights of the poorest in the north, and, throughout the depression, there was pressure put on employers only to employ Protestants
There was deliberately instigated unrest between the two communities - rioting and burning of houses - inter-religious warfare.
This was the situation in 1935.

"Despite the display of solidarity between Protestant and Catholic workers during the hard times of unemployment and the hunger marches of 1932, religious tension still existed in the community. The scarcity of jobs and consistently high levels of unemployment made for severe frictions in North¬ern Ireland society. For the Unionist Party lead¬ership it was vital to keep the loyalty of the Protestant working classes, and Orange speeches fanned sectarian flames. Protestant employers were exhorted to take on only Protestant workers. In July 1933 the Fermanagh Times reported a speech by Basil Brooke, later to become Prime Minister in Northern Ireland, appealing to Loyalists 'wherever possible to employ good Protestant lads and lassies.' In the Londonderry Sentinel in March 1934 he said:
I recommend those people who are Loyalists not to employ Roman Catholics, 99% of whom are disloyal . . . If you don't act properly now, before we know where we are we shall find ourselves in the minority instead of the majority.
The Ulster Protestant League was formed in 1931 with one of its objectives being 'to safeguard the employment of Protestants.' It was a sectarian organisation whose virulently anti-Catholic platform frequently led to violence. In November 1933, a Catholic publican was shot dead in York Street, Belfast, the first sectarian murder since 1922. Sectarian disputes escalated through 1934 to a crescendo in the summer of 1935. A big Ulster Protestant League rally on 18 June was followed by two weeks of disorders, and led the Minister of Home Affairs to ban all parades in the city. But this would have prohibited the annual Orange parades, and the outraged Orange Order put pressure on the Government to relent. They gave in, the ban was lifted, and the parades went ahead.
Predictably, bloody scenes ensued. Shooting be¬gan in the York Street area. The Catholics claimed that the Orangemen broke out of the march and attacked Catholic homes. The Orangemen claimed that Catholics fired into the parade. Who fired the first shots is impossible to determine now, but Belfast was in an uproar, and within days serious rioting had spread from York Street and had broken out all over the city, in the Short Strand, in Sandy Row and Peter's Hill. Catholics in the shipyards were expelled from their jobs, and Catholic girls were expelled from the York Street and Crumlin Road linen mills.
The RUC could not control the situation, and British troops were called in to try to restore order. They erected metal barricades as a sort of peace line along the ends of the Catholic streets around York Street, as they were to do in 1969. Whilst trying to control a Loyalist crowd in the Docks, they shot and killed two Protestants.
The fighting continued for three weeks, although some of the barricades were not taken down for months. Eleven people were killed and nearly 600 injured. There were 133 cases of arson and 367 of malicious damage."
   
A year earlier, the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland had summed up the situation there perfectly:

"I have always said that I am an Orangeman first and a member of this parliament afterwards... The Hon Member must remember that in the South they have boasted of a Catholic State...
All I boast is that we are a Protestant Parliament and Protestant State."   

Rioting and disturbances were a permanent feature of life in the Six Counties and those riots were fed by religion and based on the religious divide and the discrepancy of living standards of the two communities - the 1960/70s were a natural continuum of all this.
This didn't mean that the people of different communities didn't get on - they do anywhere i the world and whoever is in charge.
The Six County State was deliberately set up on religious grounds and those differences were deliberately used to maintain it - by Britain and by the Northern Ireland Parliament.
The National situation of Ireland had been summed up perfectly by Connolly decades earlier "There is no real difference between being exploited by an English or an Irish landlord".
What part of all this do you have problems in understanding?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:31 AM

No Keith. I just give context to your statements.

The kids throwing Molotov cocktails at each other during the marching season. That's not because they were told the other lot worship wrongly then?

"The Taliban ( taleban ( sic)) are not in Iraq.."

Where did you read that then? Do Saudi backers care what peasants call themselves so long as Wahhibism is promoted?

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:39 AM

False context because untrue.
Was I wrong about Taleban not being in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:53 AM

I ask again Keith - What part of all this do you have problems in understanding?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:56 AM

As you are one of the main "thread drift" culprits - what the **** has the Taleban got to do with Gerry Adams' arrest - and why do you feel you can use any thread you choose to promote your Islamophobia?
Thake your argument to the relevant thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:57 AM

"I have no time for sectarianism, no true Irish republican should use inflammatory language or commit acts against another individual purely on the grounds of faith or culture."

But they did!...........And still do, whatever blinkered Keith may think.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:57 AM

He can't even spell it, never mind understand it...

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:59 AM

Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban‎







The Taliban (Pashto: طالبان‎ ṭālibān "students"), alternative spelling Taleban, is an Islamic fundamentalist political movement in Afghanistan. It spread ...

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:11 AM

Take your Taleban to the appropriate thread and stop (deliberately, it would appear) trying to sabotage a discussion on what is happening in Ireland
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:13 AM

Just edited that in Keith?

One of my lectures starts with advising students to remove all traces of Wikipedia from their devices.

It is not a translation that requires a new word. As you put, the Pashto aligns to a definitive roman script.

Find a teacher to go through your posts before making a TC of yourself.

TC




For the benefit of anyone still reading this shit, Keith A Hole of Hertford is a pedant for such things so comes put fighting when his own lack of intelligence is highlighted.

For the meaning of TC, see the permanent abuse thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:19 AM

Taleban | Define Taleban at Dictionary.com



dictionary.reference.com/browse/taleban‎







Taliban, Taleban or Talibaan —n. (in Afghanistan) a fundamentalist Islamic army: in 1996 it defeated the ruling mujaheddin factions and seized control of the

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:29 AM

the bit I can't understand Jim is why you are SO very pissed off.

you obviously have great and intimate understanding of this problem can you not share your insight with Keith in a calmer way.

do you go through life itself like this? bubbling with rage.

try maynards wine gums. I find chewing a couple of these - the green ones in particular can restore one to a sunny disposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:30 AM

Come on. I corrected your spelling and you didn't like it. In fact you did it again.

I can spend a few wasted hours on the internet and find alternatives to TC if you want.

But it adds up to the same.

Just like when you reckoned Islamist purely means some terror idea, whilst the OED specifically says as the first interpretation, "of Islam." Then you said there is no Christian equivalent to the terror bit. A teeny weeny little bit bigoted view if I may say so?

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:31 AM

Whine gums?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:43 AM

"the bit I can't understand Jim is why you are SO very pissed off."
What's not to understand Al?
I put my points on Ireland calmly
My objection is that this thread has now been steered into a dialogue on Islam and spelling
I'm not angry - I object to an individual who constantly attempts to manipulate discussion using this forum as he sees fit
If I went through life angry I really wouldn't have managed to rack up the body of field work in traditional music that I have.
I just get pissed off with arseholes who deliberately set out to spoil things for others
What's your problem with that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:44 AM

you say tallee-ban, and I say tallyban
you say ulster, I say the six counties

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:49 AM

well you know he's going to say something. you must know by now that you won't agree...

you two, never get these deja vu feelings?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:03 AM

A 56 year old man (Alex Murphy) has just been arrested within past half hour in Belfast for abduction and murder of Jean McConville.He served a sentence for the murder of the two corporals.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:31 AM

This recent debate about Adams finds itself straying somewhat of course. The struggle from a republican angle is about achieving unity of this island. Loyalists wanted to secure that unity with Britain, you know the rest. On the republican side, groups such as the I.N.L.A. were sectarian, The U.F.F. and L.V.F. focused their campaign on Catholic civilians and were no better.

I make no excuse I speak as a republican, and as a republican I learned to live with history the need to draw the correct strategic conclusion from our political history is essential. We find ourselves at a challenging political and economic conjuncture.

Republicanism's critique of the UK state's occupation of the Six Counties remains valid as does our solution of national democracy and the establishment of the Republic envisaged in the 1916 Proclamation.

However the revolution has been halted. For those of us who remain committed to the view that republicanism, for all its current flaws, still holds the key to changing Ireland for the better our task is how to remake that happen. I feel Sinn Fein has failed us and the armed struggle is over.


Republicanism is emerging from a long, dark tunnel. For anyone with even a basic understanding of Irish history there is a sense of deja vu in the current situation.

Following the most sustained period of armed resistance to British state occupation republicanism finds itself not on the verge of victory but deeply divided and politically marginalised. The UK state's strategy of inviting republicans into Government but leaving republicanism on the outside has succeeded in destroying what was once the major threat to state power on these islands.


A standard reading of Ireland's political history is essentially the story of a series of indigenous uprisings against occupation stretching back 800 years. More pertinently for republicans since the United Irishmen's rebellion of 1798 Irish history is a series of revolutionary republican episodes ending in military and political defeats.

Throughout this history these defeats are followed by a period of reorganisation and re-commitment to advance towards the republic. In other words each generation seeks to advance an age old struggle for self government and the establishment of the Republic.

This teleological view of political history, the idea that history is advancing to a specific end point (for republicans the establishment of the Republic), is as common as it is problematic.
According to this interpretation of militant Irish republicanism our history is a unity of successive revolutionary ruptures ending in political representation. In other words our weakness lies in replicating the very structures of representation (and exclusion) that exist in the state structures. This is one explanation for why republicanism has historically been led by leaderships which turn towards constitutional nationalism.

The revolutionary praxis being used by republicans contained an error. This error, the belief that minor changes by the state signified progress towards the Republic, coupled with the view that victory was somehow inevitable has proved fatal for successive generations of republicans. There is nothing inevitable in political struggle.


We can see the result of this thinking all around us today. We are repeatedly told that some subtle reforms by the state at the behest of the representational group are in fact political progress and another step towards the Republic. In other words it is argued that state reforms for certain sections of the community are transformational when in actual fact they leave untouched the structural problems of British occupation.

Rather than advancing to the Republic such forms of political representation only make it easier for the state to incorporate these groups in a way which allows state power to continue unabated.


This also serves a crucial ideological role for the state. As the republican struggle is explained not in revolutionary terms but in terms of some ongoing negotiation for equality by one section of the community. The state is no longer the cause of conflict but now is seen as the remedy. Indeed many Nationalist politicians now seek to describe the IRA's campaign in terms that make it sound like it was the military wing of the Civil Rights movement.

Of course such a non analysis of the state ignores the fact that state apparatus are not politically (or class) neutral. Rather than an advance to the Republic this signifies an acceptance of the British Ideology.

The recent Haass talks offer a perfect example of how this works. While the participants return to their communities, puff out their chest and point to the never ending negotiations as proof of their relevance in fact the opposite is true. What was most striking about this charade was how weak and irrelevant the political parties looked. They represent not state power or a challenge to (or analysis of) state power.

There was no discussion of UK state occupation or any of the abuses of power, or denial of Irish rights, which flow from it. Significantly, this was because the parties themselves (not the state) had drawn the parameters so narrow. Their inability to not only solve Ireland's political problems but even to be able to think in those terms has been exposed again. They are destined to never ending talks about the symptoms not the cause of the problem.
The problems in working class communities is not that the local councillor, MLA, MP, TD etc is useless (although they may be) or that they represent parties which are useless (although they may be). Rather the problems in our communities are structural and related to the occupation.


The task for republicans in 2014 is to devise new strategies for advancing the struggle. So what do republicans do? They can state clearly never again to use arms in pursuit of their goals. Without in anyway acquiescing in the partition principle and by refusing to become co-opted into the British administrative system that manages the North, they can acknowledge that the Irish people have spoken.

While perhaps sympathetic to the spirit of what is being argued here it goes too far. The idea that republicans (or socialists or working class people) should cede to the state a monopoly on the right to the legitimate use of force is unreasonable.
In other words it deals with the issue of violence on the (liberal) state's terms. In order to understand the continued use of political violence by republicans we must assess this violence in republican terms. That is to say we must ask whether it is doing anything to resolve the problem identified by republicanism, namely, to remove UK state occupation and establish democratic relations in Ireland.


A key quality found in revolutionaries is their ability to live in the present and the future not in the past. In other words revolutionaries are prepared to give up (at least potentially) their future for the future of others. They strive in the present to alter the future but also contained within the revolutionary dynamic is the ability to alter our collective understanding of the past. Revolutions must be self referential. They must stand and fall on their own actions and rationality.

Or put slightly differently the decision to follow a particular course of action will be judged on whether this can be justified by an objective analysis of the conditions at the time. Political violence in 2014 cannot be justified because James Connolly thought it was the correct tactic in 1916. Arguing that killing a cop in 2014 is a correct tactic because the IRA thought it was a correct tactic in 1974 will not lead to revolution but rather indicates a form of monomania.



Both representational forms and military forms of republicanism up until now have replicated top down structure. Such anti democratic political forms create the same forms of exclusion as we find in state structures (ie sexism, exclusion of minorities, silencing of dissent, leadership elitism etc etc).

The days of political parties (or armies) telling the people what is best for them are over. For revolutionary groups to advance in the twenty first century they must be on the side of the people not engaging in vanguardism, eltisim or representational politics.

For republicans this must mean a multi-centred approach to struggle which prioritises strategies which place the people (particularly working class people) at the centre of our work. We must be clear the struggle is not about creating a new political party, or new political elite, rather it is about shifting power away from the state and to the people as envisaged in the Proclamation.

To paraphrase Greek theorist Nicos Poulantzas, the Republic will be established democratically or it will not be established at all.

Only through the exercise of Irish national democracy can the re-unification of the nation occur and the establishment of the Republic envisaged in 1916 become a political reality.

While the UK state continues to bolster its repressive apparatus through increased role of MI5, mistreatment of political prisoners, ever more intrusive and draconian legislation etc etc it has also altered its strategy as the political terrain has shifted over the last 20 years. The struggle has moved from the (predominantly) military field to being (predominantly) an ideological battle. This requires republicans to rethink all that has went before. 


We must also seek common cause with others in struggle. Historically solidarity for republicans has meant a one way process of people responding to demands of the movement. For republicans to broaden our struggle (and build our political strength) we must engage other groups and individuals who are out there struggling for societal change. That means developing channels of mutual solidarity which recognise that people are motivated to political activism for different reasons.

The struggle against racism, or gombeenism, or banksters, or drugs is also the struggle for self determination. Of course we know that but our task is to convince those people motivated primarily through these individual campaigns, rather than the national question, that republicanism is with them. To succeed we must develop a participatory strategy. This means building unity-in-struggle with non-republicans. Yes, there are people out there that are not republicans and they are not the enemy.


Republicanism's opposition to UK state occupation and the struggle for re-unification remain central to the like of myself. But it can no longer be the single front of struggle. The point here is that republicans do not have the political (or military) strength for a full frontal assault on the UK (or 26 County) state.

In order to build political strength throughout the island (and the focus must broaden out to the whole island) we need to develop alliances which will allow us to positively create space for an alternative to be built. Of course, we must also be realistic about what such an intervention can achieve. We cannot, as Louis Althusser pointed out, 'put bourgeois society in parenthesis in order to create the future in its midst'. However what we can do with such a positive, inclusive strategic development, is open up new vistas for republicans to begin work (with others) on building the new society envisaged in the 1916 Proclamation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:39 AM

"Take your Taleban to the appropriate thread and stop (deliberately, it would appear) trying to sabotage a discussion on what is happening in Ireland
Jim Carroll
.,,.

Tu quoque re Israel, eh Jim? [3 May, 0323].

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:49 AM

That's about the clearest and most articulate statement of the situation in Ireland as it is at present I've read in a long time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:53 AM

Yes Jim, and not a mention of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:54 AM

Jim Slaven wrote a good essay. It can be accessed at

http://thepensivequill.am/2014/01/on-rethinking-republicanism.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:18 AM

"Yes Jim, and not a mention of religion."
Stop superifialising the issue to score points Keith and address what has just been put in front of you.
It covers most of the points that interest me.
"Tu quoque re Israel, eh Jim?"
Sorry Mike - my Secondary Modern education didn't get me that far.
I don't recall anybody introducing Israel into this topic other than to make a comparison on how political stunt-pulling, such as the arrest of Adams, can inflame, and even sabotage a delicate situation - seems a perfectly valid and up-to-the-minute comparison to make - unless you happen to be a supporter of those who would set out to deliberately sabotage peace negotiations, of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:29 AM

"Tu quoque" [literally "thou also"] =, colloquially, "same to you".

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:33 AM

But it could be equally well argued that some parallels or equivalents or comparisons could be drawn from the Afghan situation, Jim. I can't see how you can consider yourself justified in accusing mentions of Taliban of irrelevance, when it was you who dragged Israel by the ears into the discussion. Sauce for the goose, mate, sauce for the...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: selby
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:37 AM

First of all GUEST,LK 867 thank you for broadening my understanding.
I am stuck now, as I understand it the republican movement was republican no matter what your status or religion, you believed in Ireland.If my understanding is correct I am wondering why? when? where? how? it became a conflict between religions.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:41 AM

"I can't see how you can consider yourself justified in accusing mentions of Taliban of irrelevance"
Because they have o relevance to this discussion whatever and there has never been any attempt to make them relevant.
Attempts to deliberately wreck peace efforts certainly do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:59 AM

I suppose the priests had the job of burying a lot of rebels and comforting their families. Pearse and Devalera were very committed Catholics.

it seems to me sf could achieve Irish unity in about ten minutes by making it an English party political matter. only the tories want to cosy up to the unionists.

English people are pissed off with their kids being used as canon fodder for questionable causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:29 AM

Jim: Don't mean to flog this particular slight drift to death; but surely some comparisons could be made between Taliban & some of the Cat & Prod terrorist organisations who have played so prominent a part in the events under discussion. In particular, is not Adams' formal membership or otherwise of {P}IRA one of the significant issues being canvassed? So mention of similar movements elsewhere could perhaps have as much relevance as of comparable forms of political intransigence in other places?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:46 AM

Don't agree Mike - but that was not the point Keith and Musket were trying to make anyway.
It was a dialogue on what is happening in Afghanistan which degenerated into a spelling bee.
I really wouldn't have been too bothered if Keith hasn't persistently used 'thread drift' as an attempt to control arguments in the past.
Anyway - let's get back to watching him try to score points before we get accused of "thread drift" shall we.   
"I am wondering why? when? where? how? it became a conflict between religions."
It's pretty well covered here: 07 May 14 - 03:50 AM
Most of it dates back to the time Henry VIII was trying to get his leg over.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:50 AM

I am considering voting Sinn Fein in national elections, I have changed my mind about voting for SF in up coming COUNCIL ELECTION, the reason is that they had a town councillor, who did not vote against several IMO important local issues, but proved himself to be the same thing as all the other parties. The arrest of Gerry Adams does not affect my voting intentions, one way or the other as far as iam concerned it is a red herring

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:51 AM

I think a lot of people are considering voting Sinn Feín, which seems to have been what all this is about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:32 AM

It is interesting that MtheGM likens the IRA to the Taliban. The only other person I ever heard make this comparison was is a firebrand Protestant Ulsterman called Norman Baxter who went out to take on the Taliban.

It was also Baxter who urged the PSNI to launch this investigation into the Sinn Fein leader's alleged role in the 1972 abduction and killing of Jean McConville, He appears to have been the first figure of any note – certainly the first with a media presence and extensive police connections – to call publicly for action to subpoena video tapes held by Boston College, Massachusetts, in which two ex-IRA members claim that Adams, as a senior IRA commander in Belfast, and had ordered the killing of Mrs. McConville. I recall he once roared " This poor woman may have heard herself condemned from the lips of demon of death himself". He urged Mrs. McConville's family to try instead, or as well, to bring civil proceedings – where the standard of proof is less daunting than in a criminal case which they are currently considering.

Baxter, a well known outspoken former Detective Chief Superintendent in the RUC used to preach from the pulpit that the British were bending over backwards to appease these no good pro-peace process republicans and that as a result IRA victims would end up being denied justice. The fact that 71% of the people of Ireland wanted the Good Friday Agreement went over his head.

Baxter said the Royal Ulster Constabulary, once the world's most effective anti-terrorist force who got the job. He was very outspoken about the new 50 -50 recruitment of the PSNI and shared government Assembly. He took his redundancy as he couldn't take any more of it and signed up with a private firm of security consultants "New Century", founded and led by Belfast-born Tim Collins, a commander in the Royal Irish Rangers who became a star of the British tabloid press in 2003 for a stirring speech he is said to have delivered to troops in Kuwait on the eve of their advance into Iraq.
(The only record comes from an embedded Daily Mail reporter who claims that she took verbatim notes of the desert oration.)

Baxter brought a contingent of his followers with him, former RUC officers, as well as ex Ulster Defence Regiment soldiers with experience in covert operations in the North. More than half of them came home as soon as the Taliban shot one of their men dead.


The level of hatred – it is not too strong a word – of Baxter and many of his former colleagues at the new status of individuals in the North of Ireland who hold office is unconcealed, he said . "Sinn Fein and the IRA have a record of human rights abuse that would equal some Nazi units in the Second World War, and yet they currently wear the duplicitous clothes of human rights defenders with such ease."

The pursuit of Adams and others must be seen by Baxter and his colleagues as unfinished business. As I said, I am no lover of Sinn Fein, but maybe there is something in what they say about "old hands pulling new strings".

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:44 AM

"The Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) is an Irish republican socialist paramilitary group formed in December 1974" – So not a religious organization then?

"The Official Irish Republican Army or Official IRA (OIRA) was an Irish republican paramilitary group whose goal was to remove Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and create a "workers' republic" encompassing all of Ireland – "Marxist in Nature" – about as far as you could possibly get from a religiously based group, Catholic or Protestant.

"The Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) was an Irish republican paramilitary organization that sought to remove Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and bring about an independent republic encompassing all of Ireland - So not sectarian at all then?

So on balance going along with Guest,LK867, and the above descriptions of the parties involved there is NO "Nationalist" side in the game, there is no sectarian (Catholic) dimension to Irish Republicanism and that being the case how can it be about religion.

As Hamish Imlach put it in his song "The Derry and Cumberland Boys"

When asked what they think o' religion
They'll say "Aw religions aw right"
But these guys are only religious
When they want an excuse for a fight

Just like you Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:57 AM

I didn't exactly "liken the IRA to the Taliban". I was simply pointing out to Jim that it was no more forced on the part of someone above that he was denouncing for doing so, than for him to liken the Irish situation explicitly to that in the Middle East, which I do not see as particularly similar except insofar as they are both territorially/ambivalently·religiously based; just as both the IRA & Taliban are politically-motivated terrorist groups. My comparison was not supposed to be any more specific than that -- hence I feel the word "liken" not to be altogether applicable.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:05 AM

Sorry MtheGM I misunderstood your comment, the fault is mine please accept my apologizes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:15 AM

Of course. No offence i' the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:19 AM

Religion became a feature because the British made it so by facilitating the creation of a Protestant State - that has been their stance ever since - the maintenance of the status quo - the old rule of thumb divide-and conquer ascertained that religion remained a feature in the fight for independence.
As I have already pointed out, among ordinary people, there is little problem with differences of belief - I have always found that to be the same with Catholics, Protestants, Muslims.... whoever.
I maintain that religion and politics are a toxic mix because all Politicians are happy to use people's faiths to set them at each other's throats, and most churches invariably support the establishment against the people.
What's your point Terrytoon?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:35 AM

But surely, Jim, the degree of toxicity of the mix will depend on the particular demands made by its precepts and injunctions on the particular religion's followers. We have been into all this. Ms Hirsi Ali [& I follow her here] believe these to be more aggressively based in Islam than in others. Which is, as they say, where we came in, is it not?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:21 PM

I have noticed much has been said here regarding Islamic radicalism, possibly leaking in from another thread. I do not intend getting into a debate over this, I see it as an British problem, not an Irish one, so my views on it are meaningless.

There is a sizable Muslim community here in the North of Ireland, they seem to get on well in business and keep themselves to themselves, any I know are like the Chinese community, decent and hard working.

Sadly the North of Ireland has seen a 70% rise in hate crime against Eastern Europeans.

The PSNI said the UVF and UDA are behind it. Only three weeks ago up to 100 masked and armed UDA men laid siege on a housing estate in the town of Larne. They set about destroying three properties and painted slogans of hate on many other properties.

As a republican I find this sickening, I am not posting this to have a go at Loyalist paramilitaries, but if I knew of one republican EVER involved in any related incident towards another because of his race, I would hope he received an Irish O.B.E. (One Behind the Ear)

The UDA and UVF may have decommissioned some of its weaponry, but it needs to decommission the racist mindset that grips many within their ranks. Such attacks are cowardly, and have the unpleasant taste of ethnic cleansing.

One of the most appalling aspects of the attacks was that a baby of 5 days old was among those targeted. Christ what kind of man orders a mother holding a 5 day old baby out of her home. This infant is no different from any other child in their vulnerability and need for human love and protection. That the pernicious viciousness of racist violence should visit them at so tender an age is loathsome.


Their bigoted moronic stupidity must be laid bare so that everyone can see the level of intellect that drives the violence against Romanians and Polish citizens over here trying to make a better life for themselves.


Many say the racists have a right to be nowhere but jail, bullshit, they either belong in a zoo or in a bog. When cancer hit's the body the immediate task is to cut it out, same goes for these cowards.

A friend of mine here in Belfast is a community activist, two weeks ago he received a warning from the PSNI of a death threat against him because of his role in defending Romanians against racism and organising an event for the Polish community regarding a Polish pope being made a saint.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:26 PM

Sadly the North of Ireland has seen a 70% rise in hate crime against Eastern Europeans.

I'm sure Ian Paisley will be chuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:49 PM

"But surely, Jim, the degree of toxicity of the mix will depend on the particular demands made by its precepts and injunctions on the particular religion's followers"
Speaking from a limited experience, I, like GUEST,LK 867 found rank and file Muslims in the UK tolerant of other religions far more than indigenous Brits are of theirs (thanks to the efforts of the Daily Mail, BNP, Ukip - and most of all, politicians wishing to win elections.
Your "volcano is very much a man-made construction as far as I'm concerned.
This doesn't mean there aren't rotten apples in any religious barrel - they are still sorting out the damage done by Christian ones here in Ireland.
All churches abuse the power given to them if they are allowed to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:11 PM

Well, Jim; you will probably not find this an acceptable rejoinder; but as to "found rank and file Muslims in the UK tolerant of other religions";

so I should hope,, as a matter of courtesy!

They have, after all, opted to live in a country where theirs is not the majority, or the 'established', populace; and I am happy to learn of such reasonable courtesy on the part at least of the part of the demographic from whom you have experienced this, towards their host community.

I have remarked before that I think that one of the faults of Islamism (as presently understood), even if only a comparatively minor one, is its gross discourtesy, in coming in and expecting — nay, demanding — all our traditional lifestyle & mores to be adjusted to their requirements.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:22 PM

MtheGM, "its gross discourtesy, in coming in and expecting — nay, demanding — all our traditional lifestyle & mores to be adjusted to their requirements" Clearly you speak of my late American mother in law and her two daughters !

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:25 PM

LoL, LK. Point taken!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:26 PM

demanding — all our traditional lifestyle & mores to be adjusted to their requirements

Yup. Just like the fundagelical "Christians"[sic], particularly in the U.S. of A..

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:32 PM

Not sure what you mean, Greg. You are speaking of a part of the indigenous population, established over the generations, even though their views might not accord with some putative 'norm'; not of, at best, second generation incomers.

Can you really not see the distinction? Dear me!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:47 PM

"so I should hope,, as a matter of courtesy"
As a matter of self-preservation too.
Wish I could have said the same about some of the Brits we've met abroad - we learned very quickly that places like Faliraki and Aya Napa were places not to spend time in.
I've visited four Muslim countries and spent time in others with large Muslim communities and on each occasion we were greeted with the same courtesy and friendly curiosity that I came to expect in Britain.
I find nothing threatening about the Muslim - or any religion - I do find some of the churchmen somewhat intimidating sometimes - but again - that goes for any religion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:55 PM

Well. ~M~, the "indigenous population, established over the generations" in the U.S. al least, are the several Native American tribes. The rest of us are immigrants.

But perhaps you're referring to the population of Britain pre-Roman invasion or pre-1066?

Besides, what does it matter where a particular group of lunatics forcing others to adjust their lifestyles and mores to the lunatics' requirements originated from or how long they have been in a particular country?

Unless one is particularly xenophobic, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:00 PM

Come down to the Emerald Road House here on some Friday night at chucking out time and you will add the Irish to that list Jim ! Christ drink has a lot to answer for over here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:04 PM

"Come down to the Emerald Road House here on some Friday night at chucking out time and you will add the Irish to that list Jim ! "
They tend to be more docile drinkers here on the West Coast L - though I have had some wonderful pints in Ballyliffin.
Hope to get round to drinking in my mate Joe's pub in Derry sometime, and take a look at his pin-ups of Che, Zapata, and Fidel decorating the walls.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:10 PM

I find nothing threatening about the Muslim - or any religion - I do find some of the churchmen somewhat intimidating sometimes - but again - that goes for any religion."
It is important to remember that muslim and christian religions both have differing sects, and that within the muslim religion, there are many different interpretations of the koran, similiar to the christian sects varying interpreation of the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:23 PM

Ah Sandinos in Water Street Jim. Good call, great bar.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:37 PM

Greg F: Opening salvo on your last post truly desperate, I fear - even by your customary exiguous standards of argument. Not deserving, as the great Jane Austen put it, the compliment of rational opposition.

Jim: Agree re places to avoid because of the shame-making shenanigans of the worst of the British abroad; but holiday-makers with no more imagination than to regard time off as nothing but increased hours in which to get obnoxiously pissed (with, it should be added, the active & enthusiastic encouragement of the locals making a fine profit therefrom), hardly in same universe of discourse as alien elements feeling they have the right to import their own customs, usages & compulsions in their baggage, and have them unquestioningly accepted within other jurisdictions in which they have chosen to settle for the nonce. Fear of giving offence by challenges to such conduct, for fear of being misinterpreted as unworthily motivated, is what leads to such abuses as "grooming" &c; and it is disingenuous to attempt to deny it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:31 PM


At what number of years' residence then is a person or a group no longer "foreigners" and given a pass permitting them to force others to adjust their lifestyles and mores with your approval?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 03:52 AM

"holiday-makers with no more imagination than to regard time off"
My point is that people travelling to Britain tend to behave far better than many Britons travelling to other countries, and in general, they receive a far better welcome than visitors to these islands - nothing disingenuous about that - we are not known as a hospitable race.
Britain gave the world such holidaymakers for centuries - they travelled all over the globe, destroyed their cultures and imposed their own, set the inhabitants working for them, punished them when they got out of line and bled the lands of their wealth - all in the name of God, King and Country - and many still hark back to the good old days of Empire.
When we pulled out, invariably we left behind a mess - economies destroyed by manipulation, peoples demoralised and divided - much of the mess of the world today can be traced back to the British Empire, asn can be the superior position Britain holds in the world today.
Last year, a group of Kenyans visited Britain seeking compensation for having been castrated for being Mau-Mau suspects.
When we pulled out of these countries, we left behind chaos - often we left to the sound of gunfire ad division, such as in the cases of Israel, Pakistan and Ireland.
My Uncle (a W.W.2. decorated war hero) once told me how he was court martialed for refusing to fight in the Civil War in Greece - his reason for refusing was he had been shown photographs of British soldiers bringing in the heads of slaughtered Greek resistance fighters in order to collect the bounty on them.
I don't think we've ever been noted as being good tourists, do you?
Nor have we ever had the reputation of paying off our debts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:49 AM

Jim Carroll - Date: 08 May 14 - 03:52 AM

Complete and utter bollocks as usual Christmas

This imposition of culture in years gone by - evidenced of course by the fact that we can walk down any town or village in India or Pakistan and find chip shops and pubs selling "Bitter" on the corner of every street.

Those former tourist days, you referred to were those the ones that brought and introduced democracy to the world? The ones that all but eliminated piracy and slavery throughout the world? The ones that raised the fight to eliminate diseases that previously had killed millions? Ah yes I remember them well.

The abandonment of the former British Empire is known as having been the most peaceful end of any Empire in history. And after all that destruction and hate you imply and refer to how on earth would it have been possible to create the second largest international organisation in the world - namely - The Commonwealth of Nations?

I would love to hear more about this "Bounty on Heads" paid to British Troops during the Greek Civil War Christmas? Who was it offered and paid by? But I don't expect to hear any more about it from anyone, especially not you Christmas.

"Religion became a feature because the British made it so by facilitating the creation of a Protestant State - that has been their stance ever since"

First England and then separately Scotland and then the rest of the United Kingdom became a Protestant country for very good reasons:

1: Rampant abuses and corruption within the Church of Rome
2: Serious and persistent attempts by the Catholic European super-powers of the day Spain and France to conquer and destroy Britain.

Hence the Act of Settlement 1701 and other Acts restricting the ability and opportunity for Catholics of exercising power within the realm.

Today only the Act of Settlement remains all other restraining acts against Catholics have been repealed.

1766 the Papacy recognises the Hanoverian Succession and Hanoverian dynasty as the lawful rulers of Great Britain and Ireland.

1774 - The Quebec Act ended restrictions on Roman Catholics in Canada

1778 - First Roman Catholic Relief Act

1791 - Second Roman Catholic Relief Act

1828 - Repeal of the Test Acts

1829 - Third Roman Catholic Relief Act

1832 - The Reform Acts

So Christmas things DID NOT just stay the same, quite the reverse in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:49 AM

One thing that always puzzles me is why the British government are always the first to get involved in someone else's fight or internal disagreement. France, Germany, Spain or Italy all seem to stay out of it and leave it to Brussels, NATO or the UN.

Britain are always the first to pledge financial or military support before anyone else and quick to send out some minister to voice Britain's disapproval.

Maybe they are just being charitable or upstanding to some nation in a corner, but the days of the empire are over and I would imagine British taxpayers would prefer their local Accident and Emergency unit stays open or their potted road surfaces gets resurfaced instead of a bucket of stones heeled into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:00 AM

"One thing that always puzzles me is why the British government are always the first to get involved in someone else's fight or internal disagreement."

Examples please where the UN or NATO are not involved?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:11 AM

Empire loyalist bullshit Terrytoon
You have some examples of messes left behind by the Empire and the repercussions of them - deal with them and I'll be happy to supply plenty more.
The Greek incident of offering bounties is well known, particularly in modern Greece, and there are photographs of them
I suppose you are now going to insult another member of my family by denying his war record, just as you described my long-dead mother a whore - a fine example of British manhood!
Ji Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:52 AM

"You have some examples of messes left behind by the Empire and the repercussions of them - deal with them and I'll be happy to supply plenty more."

QUE?? What examples?

Commonwealth of Nations - Member States:
Antigua & Barbuda
Australia
Bahamas
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belize
Botswana
Brunei
Cameroon
Canada
Cyprus
Dominica
Fiji
Ghana
Grenada
Guyana
India
Jamaica
Kenya
Kiribati
Lesotho
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Malta
Mauritius
Mozambique - (No previous historical connection to UK)
Namibia
Nauru
New Zealand
Nigeria
Pakistan
Papua New Guinea
Rwanda - (No previous historical connection to UK)
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Samoa
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Solomon Islands
South Africa
Sri Lanka
Swaziland
Tanzania
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Kingdom
Vanuatu
Zambia

All of whom. according to you suffered so greatly under the yoke of Great Britain (Apart from Mozambique and Rwanda)that on gaining independence were so eager to run away from the UK that they all voluntarily joined this organisation of former colonies, Dominions, Crown Properties and Protectorates - Christmas - you're a joke.


"The Greek incident of offering bounties is well known, particularly in modern Greece, and there are photographs of them"

Ah good so you could provide links to them then - provide away.

"I suppose you are now going to insult another member of my family by denying his war record, just as you described my long-dead mother a whore"

Now when did I do that Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:58 AM

I once talked to an old sailor who said his shipmates were all disgusted when they were offered bounties on the number of German sailors killed in a battle in the south atlantic in ww1.

having said that - I suppose we could put our hands in our pockets and said - none of my business guv' - when Hitler was rampaging round Europe, many of our neighbours did just that. we could pretend that America didn't make a first rate ally in that conflict and that we didn't owe them anything - many of our neighbours who would still be under the Nazis without the yanks - still do.

but I don't respect them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:24 AM

"What examples?"
You were given the examples of Israel, Ireland and Pakistan - perhaps it's too early in the day to find someone to read them for you?
"provide away."
There is in fact very little evidence on the actions of the the British and American forces in Greece other than the fact that they were there - the lack of information is noted.
All the evidence comes from verbal reports and from within Greece itself.
The behaviour of troops was dealt with in the Greek Film, The Travelling Players.
My father's (the one married to the "whore") brother, was a regular parachute commando officer who was set to train members of The Security Battalions Security batallions but when he was shown what was happening there, he refused to go and was charged.
"Now when did I do that Christmas?"
You don't want me to dig out your suggesting my mother was on the game - surely?
Don't you think it's time to realise how thuggishly ridiculous you look talking down to people from the holes you are constantly digging for yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK 867
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:03 AM

I recall that big oilskin map in the classroom marking out the British Empire, as my old teacher used to say "The sun never set on the great British Empire"

They had a large navy equipped with the most advanced battleships capable of sinking anything else afloat and shelling enemy fortifications from long distances. Their army was small but they also had Marine Corps and sailors trained for land warfare.

Many over here feel the problem is some British people still recall those days. They consider themselves to be superior to other races and cultures. They feel they enjoy a superior way of life and have no poverty or want in their society. That they feel they have much to teach to lesser peoples. It is also important they make money out of other's misery. Which is why they are a major arms exporter.


The empire existed for trading purposes: gold from Canada, ivory from Africa, spice from India, tea and opium from China (via Hong Kong), aluminium from Australia, coal and slate from Wales, sheep from New Zealand, and soldiers from Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:22 AM

"The sun never set on the great British Empire"
My father always used to add "Nor the blood ever dried".
"Many over here feel the problem is some British people still recall those days"
I once attended talk given by wonderful Dublin singer, Frank Harte to a somewhat stiff-necked audience at the English National Folk Festival (around the times of the 1970s Troubles)
His opening remarks began, "The English don't understand the Irish" - pregnant pause - "but the Irish understand the English"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:29 AM

"I don't think we've ever been noted as being good tourists, do you?"

Well having gone on holidays in Europe since 1957 I generally experienced that British tourists were well received, although it was rather odd that to everyone in Europe anyone coming from Britain were referred to as being English. With the advent of cheap package holidays the "Kiss-Me-Quick" hatted crowd behaved abroad just as they did in Blackpool - downright embarrassments, but Britain does not hold a monopoly on foreign tourists behaving badly away from home base.

"Nor have we ever had the reputation of paying off our debts."

Oh 100% wrong there Christmas we have an excellent track record of paying off "our" debts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 10:22 AM

That was a quick change of subject - you must do it again sometime - very impressive!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 11:51 AM

Israel Christmas??

The British left the League of Nations Mandated Territory of Palestine on the date that that Mandate expired. The State of Israel being declared on the date the British left. The UN had proposed a two state solution that was accepted by the Jewish population of Palestine and rejected by the Arab population of Palestine. Instead of opting for peace the Arabs elected to go to war, funny though because the self-same Arab factions now want to accept less than what they were offered in 1947. But they still do not want, and are not willing, to recognize the State of Israel or accept that its citizens have the right to live in peace free from external threat.

Palestine was a League of Nations Mandate assigned to Great Britain it was NEVER a colony or possession of Great Britain's.

Pakistan - 1947?

The violence started well after the date that both countries became independent:

"Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. No large population movements were contemplated; the plan called for safeguards for minorities on both sides of the new border. It was a task at which both states failed. There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history."

Ireland - 1922?

The civil war that followed the creation of the Irish Free State was down entirely to the two Irish groups involved and had absolutely nothing to do with the British. Ireland was a unified independent country for roughly one month during which time the assembly in the North voted to remain as part of the United Kingdom.

"There is in fact very little evidence on the actions of the the British and American forces in Greece other than the fact that they were there - the lack of information is noted."

Ah so if we are dealing in "facts" then the fact is you cannot provide any substantive evidence that any photographs exist that show British soldiers with heads taken from Greek ELAS fighters, nor have you any evidence that there ever was a "Bounty" placed on the actual heads of ELAS fighters.

The documentary once shown and banned covering the Greek Civil War "The Hidden War" makes no mention of it and all you can offer is a fictional account as portrayed in a Greek Film!!! Pathetic isn't the word for it – But there again I suppose that there are some clowns out there who think Mel Gibson's "Braveheart" is a factually accurate depiction of the life and times of William Wallace.

"You don't want me to dig out your suggesting my mother was on the game - surely?"

Want you to Christmas??? I have specifically asked you to – then when and if you do do that I will provide context and complete quotes illustrating the whole exchange – to show that this slur is just one more thing, one more example of shit that you just make up.

To Guest,LK 867:
"Many over here feel the problem is some British people still recall those days. Etc, etc

Can't help or do anything about the misconceptions of others if you asked the British public as a whole if that is what they thought of themselves you'd be laughed out of town.

"It is also important they make money out of other's misery. Which is why they are a major arms exporter."

Examples please of us {the British} making money out of the misery of other's? Major arms exporter? We tend to sell capital equipment items to Governments, not massive shipments of light individual weapons to terrorist organisations.

"The empire existed for trading purposes: gold from Canada, ivory from Africa, spice from India, tea and opium from China (via Hong Kong), aluminium from Australia, coal and slate from Wales, sheep from New Zealand, and soldiers from Ireland."

The British Empire was founded and created on trade – manufactured goods out for raw materials in, and along with that trade went massive investment in the countries involved.

Oh and as you failed to answer my request for examples of where and when the British government are always the first to get involved in someone else's fight or internal disagreement where the UN and NATO are not involved - The answer is that there aren't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:35 PM

Oh dear - nuffin do do with us again.
Ireland was forced into a treaty partitioning the country on a sectarian basis
Lloyd George gave an untimatum - sign or else...
Result a century of unrest.
Utter Imperialistic bollocks - but you know this - we've bee here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:41 PM

It is great to see you back, Teribus. Trust you've been well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:52 PM

God friend Teribus you are a serious man, don't take my cynical comments so literally, read them as light hearted.

Regrading my remark about the British government going into other countries involving themselves in others disagreements, I suppose I was referring to William Hague and the situation in the Crimea. He was going on about Russia and what they did (rushing in to defend those loyal to them, something like what the Ulster Loyalists enjoyed)
Hague then went very quiet after a couple of academics from Oxford pointed out to him, eh, "it could hurt us more than them, tone it down". He then scuffled over to Brussels and spoke in a much quieter voice on his return.

The arms industry is big business, Britain is a major supplier to some of those countries or factions that cut hell out of eachother.

As I said, see me as a cynical old sod, not bruising for a fight here and hopefully not because you are British an I am Irish. I would prefer to stay civil, I can adopt if so required.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:15 PM

William Hague is a plain speaking Northern lad. a bit like Jim really.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 14 - 01:22 AM

Ah yes Christmas the negotiations of 1921 where you claim to know more about what the participants in those talks said and meant that those participants themselves - old ground - you were shown to have been in error on that occasion and I do not intend rehashing it.

Still waiting for that quote from you by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:43 AM

"Still waiting for that quote from you by the way."
Still waiting for the response#s to the messes that Britain left behind them when they left their former colonies.
You have the facts about Greece - all accessible
Britain sent in troops to support the fascist side, just after Hitler had been defeated in Germany, my uncle learned of what was happening there and saw the photographs of soldiers bringing in heads to collect
bounties, he refused to go in as a training officer and was court martialed - simple as that.   
"Winston Churchill sanctioned heavy British involvement that decided the outcome. His instruction to the British military commander in Athens achieved instant notoriety: "…do not hesitate to act as if you were in a conquered city where a rebellion is in progress."
Do you Empire Loyalist dinosaurs live on a plateau in the Brazilian Rainforests or what - the Empire is dead and its reputation remains.
The behaviour of Britain towards their subjects was legendary.
They invariably crapped on the carpet and pissed in the fireplace - if you were lucky, they left the women alone.
The Empire collapsed after the W.W.1. bloodbath, leaving mess after mess behind it - still being cleared up after nearly a century, in Ireland, In Israel, in Pakistan....
The brutality of its rule was typified by the castrated Kenyans seeking compensation recently
Kenyans raped and beaten
Long after the death of Empire - the arrogance remains
Diego Garcia
Jim Cattoll

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 04:30 AM

There y'go Terminus
"Churchill was unrepentant, falsely claiming that the EAM had sought to seize power and had to be put down, even though the partisans had spurned a better chance of victory before Allied troops arrived. British forces then rounded up 15,000 leftists, deporting 8,000 of them, with ELAS responding by seizing thousands of wealthy Greeks. The tragic struggle in Athens broke the EAM. The agreement they came to with the British forced most of the guerrillas to turn in their weapons, with only a minority refusing and taking to the hills. Aris – one of the most prominent Kapetans – led one band that refused; he was eventually caught and beheaded. A White Terror gripped Greece as the newly formed National Guard (mostly ex-Security Battalionists) set about persecuting the EAM. War-crimes went unpunished, as former guerrillas were arrested, sometimes for acts of resistance; by the end of 1945 ten times as many resistance fighters as collaborators had been convicted, a trend that was to worsen with the beginning of the Civil War. Even in the 1960s Greek jails still held people whose only crime was fighting Nazism."

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 14 - 07:28 AM

At what point in history was Greece in any sense "a British colony", Jim? Misbehaviour committed against civilian populations by troops fighting an action in the territory where a campaign is being fought is an entirely separate issue -- a simple statement of the facts of the case, & in no way an attempt to excuse the atrocities committed.

The Palestinian League of Nations Mandate was a marginal bit of colonialism, if one at all.

Do you really think the Sub-Continent in any way a better place since the ending of the Raj? Honest, now?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Gerry Adams arrest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 08:37 AM

"At what point in history was Greece in any sense "a British colony"
Of course it wasn't - it was a reference to British Imperialist behaviour in its effort to control the affairs of other countries - "British tourism" in fact - a drift maybe, but not too far.
I could, of course, have mentioned Cyprus, where the British Prime Minister of the day (James Callaghan, I seem to remember) colluded with fascist Turkey to ethnically cleanse the partitioned Northern sector.
Jim Carroll