Cinderford Festival not paying artists?

Subject: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 May 14 - 01:51 PM

There's 'word on the street' that this festival didn't pay booked musicians for appearing at their festival.

Is this normal?

If so, it's certainly NOT right and shouldn't be happening.

This is a full time job for many musicians and their talents draw in the crowds to these festivals, so they should be paid, as should any other 'worker'.

I've also heard that it's sometimes only the 'big' acts who get paid.

That isn't right either, surely?

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 06 May 14 - 02:28 PM

Eh? It was a free event... No one had to play. Acts chose to play for free.

I choose to do voluntary work, I don't moan that as a 'worker' I'm not getting paid...

You're making an issue where there is none. But what's new there?

www.facebook.com/cinderfordmusicfestival

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:39 AM

presumably there were no contracts. Mind you - if they wanted free publicity they might get in touch with their local shy modest folk slueth........

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:06 AM

So, what you're saying then is that it's OK for people to make money at such a festival, say, selling food/burgers/drinks, etc...but, the very people who are bringing the crowds in, in the first place, should be paid absolutely NOTHING, purely because they're musicians and don't matter?

Tell me, do you ever see lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc..offering their skills and talents for free at festivals, having spent a LONG time honing those talents to be the best?

WHY do musicians regard themselves as not being worthy of being paid?

Was the food free?
Was the beer free?

I doubt it, but the entertainment was, because SOME Musicians decide to turn up for free, without thinking what they're doing, purely pleased to share their music whilst others make a profit from their desire to 'apologize for being musicians and expecting payment'....

Yeesh!!

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:27 AM

Lizzie,
       The Musicians who turned up for free did so knowing they wouldn't be paid,they were not dragged there at gunpoint.
Are you saying people who play for the pleasure of sharing their music are brainless idiots who are too stupid to realise they are being exploited.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:56 AM

I am saying that if ANYONE else is making money from these festivals, in ANY way, then that is wholly wrong.

Free Musicians?

Then ensure that EVERYTHING else is free too, including food/beer/marquee tents, etc...

I'm saying that for centuries, musicians have been overlooked, and exploited, because those in charge do not value the creative arts at all...and sadly, they have allowed themselves to be exploited too, because many musicians are often quiet, shy people who simply love to play their music and who won't ever demand to be paid, feeling grateful to be there in the first place.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:27 AM

Musicians,and anyone else are only exploited when they have no choice whether or not they do something.
If they understand the circumstances and still choose to do it the choice is theirs whatever you think.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:34 AM

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:49 AM

No doubt they gain something from selling CDs

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:27 AM

Tell me, do you ever see doctors etc..offering their skills and talents for free at festivals

Erm, yes... Ever heard of St John Ambulance? Or are they being exploited too?

Are you suggesting that doing anything on a voluntary basis should be banned?

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:37 AM

musicians are often quiet, shy people who simply love to play their music and who won't ever demand to be paid, feeling grateful to be there in the first place.

And quite often they're not! I have to say that most of the people I've played with - paid or not - in a period of over 45 years have been extremely "robust", to say the least! To be sure I've met the odd shrinking violet here and there, but most of my fellow musicians have been outgoing, lively, three-dimensional characters with a wicked sense of humour. I've played with cynics, drunks, loudmouths, gays, blacks, fascists, communists and many others of all sizes, shapes, religions, creeds and attitudes.

They all had one thing in common: they played good music and loved it.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:58 AM

Right, sorry I mentioned it...you all go on playing for free then, whilst others at festivals make money out of the fact you're drawing people in..

Forget I even bothered to care....

Carry on..do.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,on the piste
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:04 AM

We will, but it's really good to know we've got your permission. Remind us again what you play?

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:13 AM

I don't, as well you know, Dave...but I, for my SINS, am one of those foul and festering people called 'The Audience'...I forget though, that as such, I should have NO views whatsoever on anything at all, let alone music...

And folks wonder why I gave up writing about it?

Many of you are your own worst enemies and you have kept not just Folk Music, but Music itself, at the bottom of the pile of life, because you have not given it the Rich Importance it so deserves.

Consequently, MOST of your 'Audience' don't give a shit whether you're paid, or not....

I always have done..and for that, I am not only castigated in here, but have been for so many years for even daring to WRITE about The Music in the first place..

Carry on digging your own graves, do......

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,on the piste
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:18 AM

Given that most festivals will have some musicians that are not paid, and the musicians knew full well what they are signing up for (the only person who it seems was unaware of this happening was Lizzie) I think it's really unfair that this festival has been named and shamed in the thread title.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:25 AM

Well, on Twitter they told me I had made some very valid points..and there now seems to be a 'fund-raising' FB page appeared for next year, so maybe, just maybe, they are thinking of changing what they do, perhaps....

Sorry if that pistes you off....

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:01 AM

The point is, this is normal practice across an entire industry. It ain't gonna change, because the musicians are quite happy with how things are. But if you get your keyboard warrior thrills I guess that's all that matters.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:09 AM

Lizzie - why not start a festival?

After all they are doing it on the Archers so there is a model you can follow. After all it can't be all that difficult. Then you can pay people to your hearts content.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Noreen
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:14 PM

Many of you are your own worst enemies and you have kept not just Folk Music, but Music itself, at the bottom of the pile of life, because you have not given it the Rich Importance it so deserves.


So, in your opinion, Lizzie, the only way to appreciate the Rich Importance of something is to give it a monetary value?

I think you will will find that the festival organisers here (and in most small to middlin' folk festivals) also give their services free, and without THEIR efforts there would also not be any festivals.
Arte you going to take up the cudgel on their behalf too?

And how about the morris dancers, who travel far and wide to perform for no financial recompense?

How about the poor 'exploited' stewards, who often bring their own hard-earned talents and qualifications to enable a festival to run safely and smoothly, and for no payment? Us too?

Well thank you, but I suggest you let your collar cool down now, and go and enjoy some music.
Perhaps go to a festival and contribute in whatever way you can to the enjoyment of others, either by playing, singing, dancing, organising... or handing over beer vouchers.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 14 - 10:11 PM

Wasn't there a character in the "Mr Me" books called Mr Grouchy who was never happy unless he had something to complain about??

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:50 AM

Mr Red is not happy


AND ANOTHER THING ........................

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 May 14 - 04:00 AM

GUEST 08 may 1011 ~~ Mr Men, books, please.

~M~ OLP

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:01 AM

Interesting one this, there are a huge number of amateur performers willing to play anywhere for free, which is of course why we see so many open mike nights these days, and they of course have the freedom to make that choice, as has been pointed out, does anyone who works as a volunteer, goes out with a morris side etc,etc.

I know nothing about Cinderford, so can only go on what is on their facebook page, and it appears to be an event with free admission, so presumably the organisers have all the infrastructure costs to bear, and are doing it for the love of the music.

On the basis that the event is free, so I would assume that no-one is making money out of it, then it becomes purely a matter of personal choice to perform at it.

If it was an event where there was an admission charge, one would then expect the organisers to have a budget to pay performers, so it becomes again a different situation and I would not expect myself to perform for nothing at an event of that nature. Again, if the event is to raise funds for a specific charity, it is a matter of personal choice for the artist if they wish to donate their services for that cause. I organise a weekend raising money for Oxfam, and the artists come a volunteers, and only those who are not local will get a few bob from the proceeds to cover expenses.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Brewgyrl
Date: 13 May 14 - 08:15 AM

I feel it's time to be a bit more specific about the Cinderford Festival.
For a start it is not a FOLK festival,although there were folk-ish acts among the (last year) 52 acts over the two days.
I have a friend who plays in a ukulele band and they performed at the 2013 Festival (not this year as they were already performing elsewhere).
They - like all the other acts - were not paid...............however, every performer received a voucher for food & drink.
The public paid nothing to enter.
There were three stages, plus a bouncy castle, face painting etc etc
As far as one can tell from reports - a good time was had by all.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,freespiritceol1
Date: 13 May 14 - 08:27 AM

As I said on another thread we organise 2 free festivals a year. No one is paid, and it's great fun. Good for the local village and all musicians/singers are well looked after for food drink etc. As I see it it's a win win situation, and we have made many new music friends from around the world. We even had 2 rock bands come and play this year (for free) now one of them has a regular booking there for the summer. Can't see anything wrong there. Just do your own thing and leave others do theres, but please don't knock something that you have nothing to do with. If it offends you feel free to go somewhere else and bring joy into other peoples lives.

Keep enjoying the music and craic

All the best John

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:51 AM

In and around Nashville it is quite normal for artists not to get paid, instead they put out the "tip jar", and the audience put in what they feel appropriate to how much they have enjoyed the artist. Its the bottom line as to whether you are any good or not.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 14 - 02:35 PM

There are issues over professional promotors exploiting performers.

Lizzie picked the wrong target but in typical Mudcat fashion this seems to have resulted in a feeding frenzy attacing Lizzie rather than addressing the underlying arguement.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:19 PM

"I am saying that if ANYONE else is making money from these festivals, in ANY way, then that is wholly wrong."

Why are you comparing apples to oranges? Maybe you should walk a few miles in their moccasins before judging them (the festival sponsors) so harshly. Have you ever worked on a festival committee of any kind? It really doesn't sound like you have, based on my own experience on more than one side of the issue... organizer, performer (both paid & volunteer) and vendor (representing our traditional music group & using our not for profit status to get out of paying a space fee to set up our table & sell raffle tickets to support our own annual festival).

Important point - festival vendors include organizations that are trying to raise money, not just commerical folks who have food or items to sell.

And if you are offended that food & drink vendors charge money... so did the company that sold them the food items and the government that issued whatever permits required to sell foodor drink. Vendors are an attraction that tends to not just bring in attendees, but keep them there - and usually pay a fee to be allowed to set up.

There are plenty of real abuses out there in the music world to complain about, why not choose your battles more wisely instead of going ballistic on a situation that you seem to not know very much about? Or did one of the volunteer performers personnaly come to you with their compalints?

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:45 PM

"There are issues over professional promotors exploiting performers.

Lizzie picked the wrong target but in typical Mudcat fashion this seems to have resulted in a feeding frenzy attacing Lizzie rather than addressing the underlying arguement."

And you are free to move the thread over into that area based on your knowledge and experience. Which I note, you have chosen not to do.

I don't know Lizzie outside of her posts, which tend to be highly charged and quite insulting to those she chooses to paint with her tar & feather tactics. We do not need her to save us from ourselves... we only need saving from her and her zealotry.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:00 AM

I've been asked to do 6 festivals for nothing this summer (I'm a musician in case you hadn't guessed). I'm talking big festivals here, the sort that pay well into 6 figure sums for their headliners, and make a healthy profit from their business. They've all been turned down.

If I'd done all the gigs I've been offered over the years for 'exposure' I'd be more famous than the Beatles and homeless.

Just because musicians have been exploited in this way for years doesn't make it right.

Amateur musicians are damaging the entire profession by accepting this type of work.

I enjoy my work, but I've also paid togo to music school to learn my craft, practice daily, and generally work hard at what I do.

This is a slippery slope. Where will we end up?

Finally, on the point of voluntary work, when playing for a charity event, I choose whether/how much of my fee to donate to the charity. Why? Because said charity will not pay my rent.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:01 AM

Educate yourselves...

http://www.worknotplay.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:07 AM

Third and final post - this is the sort of thing I've come across many times. Pure exploitation.

http://barrydallman.com/brighton-jazz-festival-the-worst-exploitation-of-musicians-ive-ever-seen/

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Megan L
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:45 AM

I hope you feel better for having got that of your chest guest of course like everything else we cannot and should not expect to be able to tell others what to do the only persons actions we can direct or be responsible for are our own.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:46 AM

Hi Lizzie

<" but Music itself, at the bottom of the pile of life, because you have not given it the Rich Importance it so deserves. ">

Oh yea !!!! many musicians are some of the richest people on the planet !!

Please stop flogging a dead horse and make comments about something you know something about.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Ex film processor and darkroom printer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

"Amateur musicians are damaging the entire profession by accepting this type of work.
I enjoy my work, but I've also paid togo to music school to learn my craft, practice daily, and generally work hard at what I do."

... and hello GUEST pro musician - welcome to the harsh reality
shared by many millions of us other highly trained & qualified specialist workers
who are forced to deal with mass redundancy in the face of changing technologies and socio economic models..

..and musicians are special cases deserving extra regard and sympathy because...???

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:25 AM

too true, film processor. I live 50 miles from what is left of Eastman Kodak... the Big Yellow Box has gone the way of buggy whip makers after the rise of the automobile.

I see the "music industry" working more for the corporations than for individual musicians. Look at the situation of professional musicians in venues such as orchestras... pay cuts vs. dissolution of the orchestra. I suspect that movie soundtracks go a long way towards solvency.

And the least of those folks can play rings around most of us in the folk, country or rock fields, if you want to go on about training. A few years back I got to see Mason Williams perform with just an upright bass player for backup. I found myself facinated by the skill of that guy and when I got the chance to speak with him just had to inquire about his background. He had only just hooked up with Mason and was intrigued by the music... he is the first bass player for a Canadian orchestra that was on hiatus.

More money goes out to corporate management and lawyers on retainer than to musicians and composers... maybe it's time to cut them out of the loop.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:04 PM

It's rather more a question of why we perform, I think. That is a question the audience has no say in, Lizzie. From the why comes the where, and when.
I perform because I enjoy the music, doing something new and in my way, not someone else's. The recording industry lives off war-horses which have to be done just-so, and that's the antithesis of music as I see it. So I'll never be rich as a result? Tough. I'm having fun. Someone's paying for the venue which I could never afford on my own (London's Southbank very often) and they don't get to say what I can and cannot do. I even get broadcast occasionally. So I'll never make a kiving from it. I make a living another way. Do you live to work, or work to live? If the latter, then do some living! There's too many who work to work.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:39 PM

"Amateur musicians are damaging the entire profession by accepting this type of work."

I can't say how much I resent that remark. If you don't understand why then it's time you started thinking. Amateur musicians make a vital contribution to the musical life of this country (UK) and probably of the home countries of most Mudcat members.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:07 AM

What I find disappointing in this thread is the great hostility being shown to musicians wishing to get paid for their work; this hostility is particularly displayed by pseudonymous or anonymous GUEST posters, which is par for the course. This attitude is alas spreading. I am a professional musician, and the number of requests I get to perform for free or for derisory amounts is increasing hugely. It should also be noticed that a lot of festivals get some Arts Council or local council funding. In which case, people should be aware of what the Arts Council says on the subject, in the conditions attached to getting a grant:
"We are committed to making sure that artists are paid
appropriately for activities we support. The amount is
likely to depend on a number of things, including the
experience and skills of the artist, the type of work
and the length of the contract....There are recognised codes of practice set by relevant
lead organisations. You can find out more about fees
for artists in the information sheet 'How to pay artists',
on our website. AN: The Artists Information Company
also provides useful information on paying visual
artists (visit www.a-n.co.uk)."   The Musicians Union is one of the relevant organisations mentioned.
I make no comment about Cinderford Festival, I know nothing about it. If a group of mucicians want to get together and play for free it would be foolish to try and stop them. (Though it has to be said that if a group of miners or taxi drivers tried to offer their services for free they would be treated with a degree of aggression by the bodies representing their professional colleagues).

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:06 AM

greg stephens
What I find disappointing in this thread is the great hostility being shown to musicians wishing to get paid for their work

I'm sorry Greg but I have just looked back through this thread and can't find anything of the sort. Could you point me to specific examples I might have missed?

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:17 AM

Ooops! I'm not an anonymous GUEST. That was me.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:16 PM

It must be said, though, Greg, that there is a group inside the Arts Council campaigning to keep what funds there are for the big beasts of the Royal Opera and its sort. They're doing far more harm to your interests than the steady and unchanging beat of the amateur movement. Why is the EFDSS not fighting back?

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:35 PM

I've been asked to perform at an Irish festival next month effectively for free - they are paying for our travel and accommodation, however. This follows playing at a festival in Wales over a few years also for free (no, not Cinderford, which is almost Wales but not quite). The reason for doing this was initially to allow the festival to take place, and as it also opened up a performance space to the idea of music in the future this seemed a valid reason to me. The organiser worked her socks off to get grant funding to allow the space to be used and to ensure those of us travelling from a distance would have money towards expenses. She has now also opened up this Irish festival to a small group of us who had played at the other festival, and again she has worked very hard to make sure that at least our expenses are covered.

In each case there was/will be no admission charge for the audience and no one that I am aware of on the technical side is being paid either.

I would prefer to be paid and I agree that it is a dangerous precedent for professional musicians to waive their fees. However there is a realistic chance that I will (a) sell CDs and downloads as a result of playing (that was certainly the result of playing at the earlier festivals) and (b) stand a good chance of impressing the audience which could well lead to further (paid) gigs so I'm prepared to take the risk. If this was a festival where other acts or technical staff were being paid or where the audience was stumping up to come and listen I would feel very differently. It also opens up networking opportunities which would not be available if performers are not there.

There is, therefore, a somewhat grey area which is neither professional nor amateur in which performers may find they are asked to choose whether or not to play for free.

My husband, who is an actor, also has to make these decisions from time to time. Should he give his time for free to student film-makers? When he has done it has done his career some good as the films have been entered for competitions and can be added to his CV. It has also given him experience. He has a fine t shirt which sets out the "do not ask me to work for free" message - but I think for both of us there are times when we are willing to do that, depending on the circumstances.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:53 PM

Why is the EFDSS not fighting back?
Why not ask them rather than just posting a whinge here?

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:43 PM

I did, Peter. We're not friends as a result. But the point isn't so much to do with me as the performers: grants go into these festivals which don't reach the front line, as far as I can see from these comments.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Strummin Steve
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 05:37 AM

Let evolution take it's place here,if the festival works,it works. If it withers on the vine for whatever reason, that's the way it goes.Performers get the chance to promote their CD's so there's the chance of making something. As a positive contribution there could be a bucket available at performances then if audience members have enjoyed what they have heard but maybe don't want to buy a CD they could make a donation via the bucket. In essence pretty much like busking.Putting on a festival is like an iceberg,you see the bit above the water but there's a huge amount of organising (often done voluntarily) underneath. I'm looking at this from all angles as a paid musician,a play for free musician if it appeals,an open mic from time to time,an organiser of events (usually paid)& a festival volunteer too..

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 06:13 AM

if a group of miners or taxi drivers tried to offer their services for free they would be treated with a degree of aggression by the bodies representing their professional colleagues

Not necessarily. Miners have always worked for free when their skills are needed in a disaster, and our local taxi drivers run this:

http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/06/annual-taxi-outing-2013/

Agreed that those examples are at the uncontroversial extreme of deservingness, though.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

Ann Lister's post reminds me of the link further above to a blog about a proposed jazz festival in Brighton. There someone was trying to start up a new festival and proposed a structure where bands paid a £150 registration fee. This was criticised as the worst case of exploitation the blogger had seen, which seemed to me to be an over-reaction. The organiser had adopted a business model used by other festival, including the Edinburgh Fringe.

It struck me that with a very slight change the story might have been very different. If a few local bands had decided to put on a festival, each chipped in £150 seed money and invited other bands to participate on the same basis, it would probably be seen as a fine example of musicians promoting themselves.

There are plenty of examples of musicians being exploited by promoters, but not all promoters are in if for the money, especially in minority genres. The folk scene has depended very largely on amateur promoters who are prepared to spend their own money to support the music. Equally, musicians are adults who can make their own decisions and judgments when and on what basis they perform. If they sometimes make bad choices, they will know better the next time.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 07:43 AM

Another point - in the real world, businesses often work for nothing. I'm not just talking about professionals of all disciplines who carry out pro bono work for worthwhile cases where the client cannot afford the fees. Businesses tendering for work often spend large amounts of unpaid time and money in the hope that it will secure them a profitable contract. In the case of large projects, this can run into millions.

Firms have to invest in developing their business. This may mean spending money or taking on unprofitable work in the hope that this will lead to better things. Ann Lister's example above is how this can apply to musicians. Not all musicians seem to understand this.

Subject: RE: Cinderford Festival not paying artists?
From: GUEST,Ex film processor and darkroom printer
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 09:12 AM

If you read deeper down the linked blog about the Jazz festival.
Most of the moaners seem to be a bunch of immature self centred tunnel visioned prats
with a huge sense of entitlement...

Probably the sort of spoilt whining young 'pro musicians' anually churned out flooding the labour market in thouands
by 'kids from fame' style music colleges...

...the Simon Cowell fodder generation of singers & musicians...


Now GUEST 'Pro Musician' needs to think more intelligently before blaiming
"Amateur musicians are damaging the entire profession by accepting this type of work."
and look more closely at the hordes of his own younger new 'pro' competiters
ruthlessly grasping & back stabbing for any limited available paid work.