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Permission Required to Record/Perform?

meself 06 May 14 - 11:55 PM
Phil Cooper 07 May 14 - 12:04 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 14 - 01:15 AM
meself 07 May 14 - 01:32 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 14 - 02:18 AM
GUEST 07 May 14 - 03:01 AM
Richard Bridge 07 May 14 - 03:09 AM
Leadfingers 07 May 14 - 04:46 AM
doc.tom 07 May 14 - 05:15 AM
meself 07 May 14 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 07 May 14 - 11:51 AM
Phil Cooper 07 May 14 - 01:57 PM
meself 07 May 14 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Peter 07 May 14 - 02:44 PM
Phil Cooper 07 May 14 - 02:44 PM
Howard Jones 07 May 14 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,# 07 May 14 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 07 May 14 - 07:27 PM
Leadfingers 07 May 14 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 07 May 14 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,michaelr 07 May 14 - 08:18 PM
Leadfingers 08 May 14 - 04:42 AM
meself 08 May 14 - 11:13 AM
Joe Offer 10 May 14 - 12:47 AM
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Subject: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: meself
Date: 06 May 14 - 11:55 PM

The question: is there a simple way to find out if a tune/song is registered with any of the world's various 'performing rights' organizations (ASCAP, BMI, SOCAN, etc.)? For instance, a handy phrase that would make for an effective Google search?


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:04 AM

For mechanical rights check the Harry Fox agency or Bug music. It helps if you have the right song title or the songwriter.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:15 AM

Bug Music has been acquired by BMG Chrysalis, and licensing can be done through the BMG Chrysalis Website. Here's an article about the acquisition: (click).

I find most songs can be licensed in the US through the Harry Fox Agency's Songfile utility (click).

In the UK, try www.prsformusic.com -Joe-


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: meself
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:32 AM

Thanks. What I'm really wondering is if there's a way of finding out if a tune is 'registered' somewhere without having to search each agency, which is why I brought up Google. I'm planning a fiddle CD, and there are various tunes that could be registered with agencies in Canada, the US, and/or the UK, or they may be 'public domain'. If I have to, I will search each likely agency (keep'm coming!), but I hoped there might be a simpler way to get pointed in the right direction ....


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:18 AM

Hi, Meself -

The Harry Fox Agency in the U.S. and PRSforMusic seem to have the closest to a comprehensive list for each country. Don't know what the line is for the UK, but it will be at 1923 in the U.S. for a good, long time. If it was written in 1923 or earlier, you're home free. If later, it's your duty to track down the copyright holder and pay royalties.
Mudcat is a pretty good place to go for advice on songs. If you don't know, ask.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:01 AM

How do you stand with traditional songs that have been rearranged?


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 14 - 03:09 AM

UK, life of composer + 70.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:46 AM

As I see it if a song IS traditionsl , its the arrangement ONLY that can be Copywrite


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: doc.tom
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:15 AM

Spot on, Leadfingers - although I know several performers who've had a very difficult time arguing the case because some bugger has clapped an 'I own this' registration into PRS.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: meself
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:03 AM

My particular concern is the matter of 'mechanical rights' (thanks, Phil Cooper!), as opposed to simple copyright. If it looks like it's going to be a whole lot of time, effort, paperwork, and expense to arrange the legalities of recording a given tune, I'm not going to bother with it ....

All your suggestions and info. much appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:51 AM

I believe that PRS (Performing Rights Society)merged with MCPS (Mechanical Copyright Protection Society)at least that was on the cards when I was with PPL (Phonographic Performance Ltd).

Hoot


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 07 May 14 - 01:57 PM

If you're doing a recording of fiddle tunes you may want to ask some other fiddlers about authorship/composing of the tunes. Some tunes that are thought to be old were really made up recently (Tunes like Nail that Catfish to a Tree was composed by Steve Rosen, though I think more than one person has thought that it was traditional). But I know some tunes have more than one title. So, it can be tricky. If you can find a tune in an old collection, you can probably assume it's public domain if it is from a source from pre-1923, as Joe mentioned. Another thinkg I have seen done is putting a notice on the recording saying that if someone can prove authorship of a tune, if you haven't found them, is to tell them to contact you for royalties. Considering you're talking about $45.00 for 1000 copies, it's not likely to break the bank.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: meself
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:36 PM

Yes - about $45 for one tune. However, I'm planning on recording an hour or so of medleys of 5-10 tunes each; theoretically, I could end up paying $45 x 10, not to mention the time spent and the general bother, which is what I'm really more concerned about. Actually, the more I think about this, the more I'm inclined to stick to tunes that I'm certain are public domain, and my own tunes ....


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:44 PM

But I know some tunes have more than one title
And some titles apply to more than one tune!


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:44 PM

That works, too. I have sometimes found a song or tune by someone else that;s just too good to pass up. We generally only do a couple things on a project that we need to license.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:25 PM

$45 per track sounds a lot. When my UK based band made an CD about 3 years ago the MCPS calculated the royalty as 6.5% of the selling price, so on a run of 1000 copies at £10 each the maximum we might have paid is £650. However they also have a Limited Production Licence at £250 for up to 1000 CDs (although as everything was either public domain or our own tunes we ended up paying nothing). have you checked with your own licencing body whether they have a similar deal?


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:27 PM

meself, it isn't worth the time. If the copyright holder isn't easy to locate, and you intend to print fewer than a thousand CDs, just record the tune and keep the cash available to pay people who can prove they own the song/reel/jig whatever. I intend to record a song written back near 1925, and even that came from a song written in the late 1800s. There are at least 40 living copyright holders for that song. I think they are full of it, so they can sue me or prove they wrote the song. If anyone does, I will split the $100 among the lot of them. I hope they'll be happy with their $2.50 each.

If the new CD is half as good as your last one--or the last I have heard--it will be wonderful. You playing harp on it?


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:27 PM

From a USA perspective Just Do It ! ! !

It will be decades before "Bridge" declares you have "gone too far," and even more decades before they collect from a bankrupt estate.

For a wonderful insight....(updated every minute or less) www.chillingeffects.org

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Carpe Deim - IMHO most folks that "question" these "things" are looking for an excuse to not move foreward.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:30 PM

Make sure you have anything that IS definately your own registered with PRS or whoever - Fred Wedlock has been quoted as saying that Ed Pickford
got £20 grand for 'Oldest Swinger after Fred recorded it


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:40 PM

Mr. Laedfungers,

Please elaborate:
Fred Wedlock?
Ed Pickford?
Oldest Swinger?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

at least ONE reference to a SOURCE would be nice....given your amazing insight.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:18 PM

Remember that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

My band recorded several compositions by well-known contemporary musicians. For the Richard Thompson song ("Pharaoh"), I took out a mechanical license; another songwriter graciously gave me permission free of charge; and two others whom I contacted for permission never responded, so I just went ahead.


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:42 AM

Fred Wedlock , who died a couple of years ago . was a very popular Bristol based folk entertainer . He recorded , without permission , Ed Pickford's (Yorkshire based songwriter) song 'The Oldest Swinger In Town' which was a Number One best seller in the charts . Ed had PRS membership and so was able to get his fair share of royalties .


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: meself
Date: 08 May 14 - 11:13 AM

Thanks for all the thoughts, ideas, suggestions; they've helped.

Bruce - I assume that's you! - thanks for the kind words about the harp CD. I did a second one; the one I'm planning now will be straight fiddle - I mean, the instrument, not just the tunes!


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Subject: RE: Permission Required to Record/Perform?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 14 - 12:47 AM

refresh, compensating for our downtime


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