Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:54 AM

I can see your point, Lizzie, but music is actually not as black and white an occupation as, say, plumbing. There may be a plumber here and there who picks up his wrench and plumbers mait with joy in his heart and an overwhelming urge to plumb, regardless. But I doubt it. There are, on the other hand, countless musicians who pick up their instrument with joy in their hearts and an overwhelming urge to play, regardless.

There's an endlessly fine line between total unpaid amateurism (in the best sense of the world) and total paid professionalism in the world of music - particularly the folk world - and it's possible to drift seamlessly back and forth along that line according to circumstance and inclination. It's the nature of the beast.

When I was doing my day job, there were certain times - here and there - when I worked all the hours in the day, took work home, burnt the midnight oil, etc., until an important project was completed. I was paid a salary - not by the hour - so I got the same wage no matter what hours I did. The point is that I was immersed in the project and believed in a successful outcome. The extra hours I put in were freely given - so you could say I was being exploited - but the pleasure I got from that successful outcome wasn't just measured in money terms.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:35 AM

Doesn't that sound somewhat bitter, Steve? To me you're saying that those who DO make their living from their music, working damned hard to do so too, more often than not, aren't to even be considered in keeping the folk scene alive.

You see, I pick up a bad feeling in this thread, towards musicians who do get paid, who DARE to feel they SHOULD get paid too.

Often, they too contribute freely of their time, despite being professional musicians..and they also use the fact that they may be headlining at various festivals, to introduce new acts to the folk world too...

So, pooOOOOOOoooo to your statement above....

There is NOTHING wrong with musicians being PAID for what they do and it's appalling that so many are NOT paid, often being used by those who seek to make money from them being there in the first place...

And just to re-iterate for the Pedantic Twits in this thread, that I am NOT advocating that musicians should be paid at all times, even when playing amongst their friends etc...sigh...just that if others are making money from the fact that those musicians ARE playing in the first place, pulling in the crowds, then the musicians, above all others, should be the ones to receive payment.

Next time your plumber comes round, tell him you regard his skill as a hobby and that he gave you joy fixing your toilet, so therefore, you ain't going to pay him a darn thing...and see what happens.

Fine, if music is your HOBBY, so be it, go out there and play around, but if it IS your chosen form of work, then you should darn well be paid for it, in a generous and respectful way..

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 May 14 - 04:51 PM

Without this army of anonymous toilers there wouldn't be a folk scene worth mentioning (IMHO)

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 29 May 14 - 12:44 PM

one bright side to this thread has been the number of mudcatters who find ways to support their musical communities as well as the larger local ones with their time and talent. Volunteerism has not become extinct and folks find ways to balance their priorities in life.

Driving on our highways, one sees signs citing the local company or organization that has "adopted" sections of the highway ( basically they spend a few weekend hours picking up trash & debris from the shoulders & meridian).

I have yet to attend a folk concert or festival that didn't have a small cadre of volunteers helping out... they might get a nod or word of praise in addition to whatever perks are offered by the venue.

So let's hear it for those who find positive ways to help keep the music alive for future generations in whatever small way they can.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 14 - 12:31 PM

The curry you buy with the £150.00 is tax deductible if it cures your constipation, so long as you hum, whistle and sing whilst curing, as it were....

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,Charlie Cashbags
Date: 29 May 14 - 09:35 AM

I've just been humming, whistling, and singing a few songs whilst sat on the toilet with constipation the past half hour.

Bloody hard work.

That'll be £150 thanks Lizzie - Paypal is accepted....

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Bert
Date: 28 May 14 - 06:40 PM

I've just looked at this thread for the first time.

Lizzie, I don't think that it is always a case of undervaluing themselves, or should I say ourselves.

Sometimes we play for free to support a worthy organization or cause.

I performed on almost 80 episodes of Mudcat Radio without pay because I thought that Mudcat was a worthy cause, and I think that most members would agree with me.

For about a year I supported The Stargazer's open Mic in Colorado Springs because Stargazers does so much for local musicians.

I attend a local open mic at Gracie's Lounge to support a couple of musician friends of mine.

I value my work very highly and enjoy donating my time and songs to those whom I think are worthy and who are not taking advantage of local talent.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 28 May 14 - 12:30 PM

I run a folk club there last tues in the month - closed til september. I played at a st paddy's night dinner. and one other gig. i'm hoping they come up with another one - tho to be truthful i'm not sure the regular punters noticed I was there.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Musket
Date: 28 May 14 - 10:55 AM

Robin Head was certainly on a Keith Christmas album Al. We had a copy at the hospital radio with a sticker noting not to play that particular track.....

(Your old stamping ground. The gig was at Mansfield Civic Centre, circa 1980.). On the subject of gigs, a relative in Weymouth told me you played The Ship at Upwey recently. Do you still stand at the end of a skittle alley to perform there? I rather thought hecklers might feel obliged to roll a few balls down at me when I played it many moons ago.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 May 14 - 10:45 AM

thank you, Will

And here is a review for a recently closed venue in the Rochester, NY area. McGraw's Irish Pub... opened a few years back by a father & son who have hosted a celtic music show for decades and tried to do their bit to keep the music going.

A corner stage in the mirrored dining room of this loyally Celtic venue is dedicated to the many musicians and dancers who headline several evenings each week. The presence of pint-sized performers encourages families to come out and enjoy the Irish-themed menu, from hot reuben sandwiches with Dublin cheddar to the signature wings coated in McGraw's tangy, rich Guinness sauce and sprinkled with Parmesan cheese. Not a meat fan? The sauce doubles as a vinegary dipping side for french fries served in paper cones.

I'm sure the banks made their pound of flesh off them...

it being a long drive away for us, we only got there once. The whole family had pitched in to convert a dingy bar into an inviting pub and we hoped it would make it.

Not for profits have a hard time keeping things going and more than one paid performer has taken less than their usual fee when the gate was so poor it barely covered space rental. Their donation to the cause. More than one benefit members concert needs to held to keep the coffers filled enough to cover expenses... and there are no salaries in those expenses.

Without viable venues, where will musicians be able to play the music that's important to them? Or learn the tunes and songs?

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 May 14 - 10:03 AM

Sciencegeek and DtG - many thanks for those sensible contributions. I heartily agree.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 28 May 14 - 09:56 AM

My music got a lot better and more enjoyable when I stopped worrying about using it to pay the rent. Now I can play the music I want to play instead of what my boss tells me to play. And, to reiterate, if the promoter is making money, so am I.

There's a word for people who want to tell other people how to conduct their lives. I'll remember it in a moment . . .

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 May 14 - 07:05 PM

The whole premise of this thread is that musicians are unable to decide the matter for themselves.

There is a world of difference between a commercial event which seeks to exploit musicians and a community event which musicians wish to donate their time to. If Lizzie cannot see the difference, most musicians can, and can decide for themselves whether or not they wish to play.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:53 PM

No real point in trying to explain, sciencegeek. Many have tried and failed :-( Stringsinger, I fully understand what you are saying, but the phrase "If you work hard and do your homework, than you should be paid " is the contentious phrase in your statement. Many people have worked and studied hard and not received their just rewards. It is sad but a fact of life that not everyone gets what they deserve. Including musicians. If we make a special case for musicians why not for those who studied law and ended up stacking shelves? Or those who studied art and are now on the dole? The whole premise of this thread is that musicians should always be paid for their work. Sorry, nice as that would be, things just do not work like that.

DtG

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 May 14 - 03:30 PM

Stringsinger ... I completely agree that commercial festival and events - those whose purpose is to make financial gains for the sponsers- should expect to pay their workers. Musicians, gaffers, etc.

HOWEVER... this statement she made in her opening post is what sticks in my craw and in others who have taken exception to her inflexible attitude.
"I'm sure ALL festivals have people selling food/beer there, so WHY are musicians content to bring in the crowds to make those people profits, whilst not being paid a penny themselves."

Spoken by one who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Here is the website for the small, local event that does not pay any musicians and uses the funds raised to cover expenses and make donations back to the community. http://www.springwaterfiddlersfair.net/index.htm

The craft venders have to pay to exhibit their works... the musicians get in free with a guest, given a token gift and are fed. While knowing that their participation is helping others. Only a few get stage time... anyone else who shows up with an instrument gets in free. We all got red hats, which explains all those hats in the various photos.

Folks have not only done this once, but 5 times and we are signing up for the 6th festival this fall. Any many of these folks have been paid to perform in other venues... this is their contribution to a good cause. What many of us have tried to point out, is that not everything revolves around the almighty dollar, pound, euro, rubble or yen. And that does not make us sell outs... rather it confirms our basic decency and concern for something other than short term gain. OK, and maybe some feel it's their only shot at performing.. but they are the ones out playing in the woods, not on stage.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 May 14 - 01:11 PM

Mick, I always enjoy your posts. It would be better time spent rather than performing without pay, practicing and rehearsing what you love to play and sing.

Sometimes a benefit concert is helpful but that's a business choice.

If you work hard and do your homework, than you should be paid unless you
are in school and paying to be educated. Taking classes and instruction can also
be added to that tally sheet, Mick.

What you say makes absolute sense to me and Lizzie, a festival that doesn't pay it's performers, I agree, is exploiting them.

Again, a benefit for a worthy cause provided the performer is treated with respect
and gratitude, a rarity when you donate services to most causes, is the only
exception I can think of.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 May 14 - 12:31 PM

wasn't the robin hood song by the late dave turner.
dave sold me amphetamine one time and told me it was acid. w...well it was the sixties! I believed him.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 May 14 - 11:58 AM

Maybe we should start asking why so many "venues" go with karaoke or "live" DJs (never could figure that one out) instead of live musicians (that at least makes sense)?

Or perhaps, why do so many people volunteer their time, energy and even money to keep folk/traditional music alive?

Many folk venues exist because the folks running them love the music and do what they can to keep it going. Many go under because they couldn't make enough to break even, and that's the most discouraging. What the heck is ASCAP doing to keep venues going??? Oh yeah, keeping their well heeled lawyers on retainer.   

While saving money to go to grad school, I worked for a short time as a waitress at a not so local tavern that had country music on the weekends. The band played the same songs that were on the jukebox... and during their breaks, guess what the patrons played on said jukebox. Not even different selections, but the same ones that were just played for them live.   

These are the same patrons that have a band playing "Please release me, let me go." at wedding receptions!?!? Honest to god... I witnessed it myself.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 10:23 AM

Keith Christmas played a festival just up the road and I didn't go. Boo... Wish I'd known but as the date clashed with something, I didn't check the guest list.

I used to sing his Robin Head back in the day. Normally I changed a line to read "Old Friar Tuck with which nothing rhymes." Huh.. Big charity gig, mayor etc and hundreds in the marquee, a young Musket spouted "Old Friar Tucker the king moth..."

That's the beauty of gigs, paid or unpaid. Nowadays I can laugh at how the commotion got louder and two verses later, the whole place was discussing my faux pas.

Nobody seemed interested in the drugs theme, just a naughty word. Calling Maid Marion the acid queen went over collective heads I think.


Sorry, rambling again..

Keith Christmas. Well, well well....

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,Seaham cemetry
Date: 27 May 14 - 10:12 AM

My Dad used to say his free gigs were when nobody would pay them.

I suppose he meant he was a musician first and a businessman in music second.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 14 - 07:40 AM

well of course Will, more things happened than that. its abit like the Napoleonic wars. I spoke about Waterloo, but I left out the Battle of Austerlitz, not to mention the Peninsular Wars. and totally forgot Trafalgar.

there was the coming of the folk comedians. folkies with hit records. super agents like Les Ward, and Jim McPhee. Ann Dex who seemed to arrange gigs for artists willing to travel to Denmark and the Arctic circle......and much much more - battles, skirmishes, internecine struggles - all cemented together by the English talent for bloody mindedness and narrow vision from every interested party.

the greatest show on earth.... sorry you missed it!

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 May 14 - 07:36 AM

Good to hear he's still around. He went out with my sister for a spell - many years ago.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: johncharles
Date: 27 May 14 - 06:36 AM

We played at hull folk festival last year. Keith Christmas was on the bill and very good he was too.
john

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:30 AM

Al - I have to say I really don't understand your thesis that the "folk revival" players - however you define them - were frozen out by the more traditionally-minded club organisers, and that people like Wizz Jones, Gerry Lockran, Bert Jansch, etc., were deprived of places to play. In short, vibrant modern folk entertainment was shifted into second place in favour of traditional singing by clubs with a preference for performers like Martin Carthy.

If that's your argument, I find several problems with it.

1. Its' more likely that the public's taste for performers like Jansch and Renbourn simply waned. "Folk" music was ever a minority interest anyway. I was a huge fan of people like Davy Graham, Bert Jansch, John Renbourn, Al Stewart, John James, Keith Christmas (remember him?), The Incredible String Band, and played some of their stuff in clubs myself. And then I started to tire of it. Partly because of the lack of progression of some of the performers themselves. Graham took heroin and went tits up; Jansch drank; the Pentangle travelled swiftly up its own arse, and so on. Partly because of my own changing preferences. I started playing jug band music, then 20s dance music, then jazz, then other stuff. Many of my mates did the same - changed musical directions and tastes.

2. If there really had been a huge demand for the folk revival entertainers, then surely enough like-minded people could have started their own clubs to cater for that audience? It's not impossible. I started my own session in my village about 6 years ago because I needed a local musical "fix" in between the monthly one I attended, and still attend. It can be done. You say that there were 3 or 4 folk clubs in most decent-sized towns. Perhaps in your neck of the woods. There was but one in Lancaster, my home town - and that's a county capital. Even that faded and died, simply because the music in the area took on a different focus - blues, rock, and so on.

It seems to me to be too simplistic to say that one set of musical ideologues "killed off" another set, as though it was all political. Musical tastes and requirements are ever shifting. My local city of Brighton had a thriving jazz scene right up to the 1990s - I was part of it. There's very little jazz in Brighton now, and not a club that I can think of. There are pockets of manouche - gypsy jazz - here and there, and some little pub gigs - and that's about it. C'est la vie, eh? You can't legislate for peoples' tastes - they shift all the time.

Now I may be all wrong here. I stopped actively going to folk clubs in the late 70s, and only started popping into them again a few years ago, therefore my knowledge of the scene in the intervening years is sketchy. They look very different in some respects - the prevalence of music stands and books of songs I find highly amusing and rather sad - but one thing hasn't changed, and that's the friendliness and welcoming faces of the club organisers.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 May 14 - 03:43 AM

I do wish people would not complain about grammatic solecisms. It inhibits creative expression when one is only having a good old rant.

Sorry this reply is so late. I've just got back from playing for free at Chester folk fest.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Ole Juul
Date: 26 May 14 - 09:27 PM

This is a long thread and I haven't read all the posts, but I've scanned it and enjoyed the last bit. There's a lot of good answers there. Mysha sums it up nicely above.

There are indeed some realities which if ignored leaves one feeling, and probably sounding, grumpy. It's a cold fact that you can't force people to pay for everything. You can entice them and ask, but if that fails then you have nothing to complain about it. Obviously, although they may value your offering, they don't value it enough to pay you - at least this time. You can then withdraw you offering, or you can do it for other values. The GUEST posted link is well worth reading in that regard. As Big Al Whittle says above, "these guys have tried to get paid" and they've failed. There is nothing wrong with that. To suggest, as the OP does, that "the market" has some sort of obligation to you suggests some kind of entitlement. That others (capitalists?) do that, is no excuse for perpetuating the attitude.

I can't help but see a parallel with the open source and free software community. People write code in order to satisfy their own needs and to contribute. That capitalists like Steve Jobs scoop up the work of thousands of coders (and many times that in hours of work) and then use it to make money is not a concern to many of those people. They do what they do for their own reasons and they passionately believe in what they do.

If you want to get paid like a "capitalist" then you have to play by those rules. That's what the music business is about, not what music is about. If you disagree with that, then you might as well demand that people buy your super duper potato peeler that you spent your whole life developing. Good luck with that.

tl;dr A sense of entitlement is perhaps not the most altruistic basis for getting paid.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:43 PM

I fully understand the folks who feel threatened by those of us who cheerfully play (for) free, but they're wrong. If I refused to play (for) free, I'd hardly ever get out to play at all. My playing (for) free is really a bit of symbiosis. I get beer and I get transport, so I get a fantastic night out with the lads (a piss-up with tunes, as it's occasionally though inaccurately been described, as we do have our standards!), and I get out every week, and both the pub owners and the pub customers love it (we've been doing it for 20 years, so they might have said something by now!). We're under no pressure, we stop and start when we like and we have a rollicking good time. On the other hand, we want good dough for any weddings and parties, with beer, food and petrol money chucked in. Totally different. But we only get those gigs because people see us in the pubs we play in. We're a cheery bunch of hairy-arsed amateurs and we don't need sniffy pros or semi-pros telling us we're letting the side down by not demanding big mazumas from little rural pubs. Bloody arrogant folkies. Bugger off!

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:38 PM

I hear that tautology coming, at the sentences end
And I ain't heard a solecism since I don't know when

I think Johnny Cash said that......

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:03 PM

I do wish people would not say "for free". It is a grammatical solecism. Something may be "free", or it may be done "for nothing".

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 14 - 06:19 PM

sounds like you know what you're doing guest.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 14 - 05:46 PM

Here's a couple reasons I play sometimes play for free

1 - building relationships with venues,
2 - expanding your fan base,
3 - supporting a good cause (you mentioned that already),
4 - or just having some good times.

It's a tough one though. Like anything you're gonna have to watch for the signs of exploitation.



Here's a post I did on the subject... http://www.apparatus.ca/when-you-should-work-for-free/

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:42 PM

oh jack why so fucking bitter. the fact is I grew up in an era when there were three or four folk clubs in most decent sized towns.

I learned to play guitar - expecting there to be places to play. the big time never came into it. okay I've had a hit record. iam content having made some sort of a living.

but I wish the folk clubs employing entertainers had survived - they were nicer places to play than the places I did end up playing.

most entertainers of the period can confirm that the week after Carthy (heavily promoted by the melody maker folk page) played aclub that had been running for ten years , the place was empty =people bored shitless and completely failing to understand 'traddy' performance style. half a dozen more traddy artists getting the same big build up from melody maker and the folk revival was dead in the water.

okay I am sorry you can't take the truth but that's the way it was. it was shit to watch - I hadn't even started performing when all that happened. absolutely heartbreaking.

asfor making it big - my hero was always tony hancock's the punch and judy man. a bohemian pro performer - surrounded by posh twats.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:49 AM

DtG, well put. For some there are delusions of grandeur, for others it's more a case of delusions of adequacy.

As for misogynistic attitudes.... again blanket statements based of opinions with little or no facts to support it. Speaking as a well educated and opinionated heterosexual female, I also took tried to take Miss Lizzie to task for her sweeping condemnation that, frankly, I found quite insulting and based on ignorance. The world is not black or white... it's shades of gray and many different colors as well.

Lizzie, you are not under attack... it is your strident and confrontational statement that ignore any facts or opinions that do not resonate your own. If you want your opinions valued, then maybe you should start to reciprocate. Maybe even consider getting off your high horse and taking a closer look around you.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:34 AM

And perhaps, Dave, you might apologize not only to me, but also to the memory of Pete Seeger, for daring to suggest that he too 'engaged his mouth before putting his brain into gear' purely for doing all he could to get musicians to feel great pride in what they do.

I would do that, Lizzie, if you were saying the same thing, in the same way as Pete Seeger did, but you are not. Pete Seeger was a brilliant songwriter and knew how to put his ideas across without rancour and without the hyperbole that you constantly employ in your rants. You have had lots of answers to your question and chosen to ignore them. You are now putting yourself in the same league as Pete Seeger. Don't delude yourself. You are not a fraction the activist he was. I said nothing whatsoever to suggest that he spoke without thought other than in your own mind.

Now, you promised once that you would not speak to me. Please keep that promise.

DtG

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:26 AM

…… in my view, musicians should still *always* be paid in some form or other, when they are the very people, (no-one else) who are drawing in the crowds ……

While I enjoy listening to other people perform, they are not "… the very people, (no-one else) …" that draw me to a festival. I go to a festival for the opportunity to join in with others, to sing and to play. I am realistic enough to know that if I insisted on being paid money each time I performed then I would spend most of my life in silence. The applause I receive is sometimes polite, sometimes enthusiastic but always, I believe, genuine so I am being " paid in some form or other".

Since I am lucky enough to have retired from the rat race, I reserve the right not to turn anything into "work".

DC

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 14 - 11:54 AM

"Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?"

To be heard, and possibly to get a following...OR..perhaps a fund raising benefit...Or..because they haven't done enough homework..and no one will hire them.

GfS

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Mysha
Date: 24 May 14 - 10:52 PM

Hi,

As usual on Mudcat I don't understand most of the thread, with all the "Name: You're [wrong]" bits where I don't understand why they're not "Well, in my opinion ..." bits. But I do see some patterns.

The simple one is the one about playing music as work. For most, that's the well known: It's only work if you'd rather do something else. The more difficult one is: If you're not working then, should you be paid for creating an opportunity that someone else uses to make profit? That's one most societies don't have an answer for.

It's the difference between intention and result. On the other side of the spectrum it's the thief that steals a trinket without knowing that it's worth millions: Should he be punished for his intention which was no big crime, or for the result which definitely was costly? Should we on our side be rewarded according to our intention to just have fun making music, or according to the resulting opportunity for others to make a profit?

Where I am concerned, I've been raised to be grateful for the created opportunity, were I the profit maker, and thus to seek to reward the creator of the opportunity. But likewise I've been raised not to claim what I didn't work for, and I would therefore have to refuse such a reward if offered. A polite reversed barter would probably be the result in that situation, creating a middle ground between intention and result, just like the thief is probably likely to get a punishment somewhere in between the two extremes.

So, would I feel exploited if someone made money of me having fun? No, I don't think I do. But I might notice someone's bad manners if serious profit never resulted in any form of thanks for the opportunity. (It would probably take me longer than most people to notice, but eventually I would come to the conclusion that they were not well-mannered.) So, what would I do about such bad manners? Nothing; that's not how I was brought up. But maybe, if we're talking about people accumulating personal wealth, I would bee able to break through my upbringing and not help them when they could use a hand. I guess what goes around comes around.
                                                               Mysha

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 24 May 14 - 07:15 PM

I started out in life as a singer, did lots of amdrams for the so called experience great fun - hard work no dosh Then I went all commercial and started earning some money in the late 70s and never did stuff for nowt again and ended up singing as a professional tenor and being paid. If you want to perform for nothing thats fine by me but being a pro means you get paid otherwise no point. I also worked as a TV actor - conditions lousy but not not bad dosh mostly but you got paid. I have tried explaining to Sainsburys that feeding me and the wife would be good publicity but they seem to want money

I seem to remember in the 60s reading in Banjo Mandolin and Guitar that you could just about earn £20 a week ie a bare living wage as a folk singer if you toured constantly and slept in a phone box while working. I suspect it is never been a way to make a fortune for most people

Until the rise of the West End musicals in the 80s most trained singers were part timers who taught to make a living or did summer shows or panto. Music is a great hobby but a lousy living for most people

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 May 14 - 01:56 PM

a lot of these guys have tried to get paid. they have failed and now they have made an accommodation with reality that leaves them a little dignity

More dignity than if they spent their declining years whining about how the traddie conspiracy denied them a shot at the big time.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 14 - 01:12 PM

why is not making scads of money the fault of musicians? better to rant at the capitalists.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 14 - 12:36 PM

"but they set their dentist salary guitars up at the festival and in their hearts -its HELLOOOO! WOODSTOCK!"


We're not all rich buggers playing for nothing.

Even us perpetually skint unemployed & disallowed from claiming benefits musicians with old junk shop guitars
are determined to continue playing for free for all sorts of reasons of politics and principles...

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 14 - 12:16 PM

I still don't understand why you are so fed up Lizzie...

I think maybe a lot of these guys have tried to get paid. they have failed and now they have made an accommodation with reality that leaves them a little dignity.

don't you think are being a little tough on them. they haven't got the chops to play pro gigs, but they can do something - and allright no one pays them - but they set their dentist salary guitars up at the festival and in their hearts -its HELLOOOO! WOODSTOCK!

harmless middle aged fun!

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 May 14 - 11:59 AM

From Dave: "Captainswing, little wonder you agree with Lizzie. You are indulging in the same pastime. Engaging mouth before putting brain in gear."

How tiresome your constant patronizing of me has become. I was well aware the festival which first started me thinking about this issue was a 'free' festival, but in my view, musicians should still *always* be paid in some form or other, when they are the very people, (no-one else) who are drawing in the crowds whom *everyone* else has the potential to financially benefit from.


I make NO apology whatsoever that as a woman with a brain, and, even worse, an *opinion*, I obviously upset your arrogant, patronizing, misogynistic mind.

I hope you can get some help for your problems, but until you are able, please, do NOT bring this kind of patronizing (yes, I've used that word THREE times now) to me.

I am with Mick all the way in this...and his voice is always one of reason and good manners.


I have also never said that musicians should charge when they are playing amongst friends, ever. I am talking about music festivals, be they free or charging, for without the musicians there would be no festivals at all.

Sadly, far too many of you undermine yourselves by charging nothing at all and in doing so make it extremely hard for musicians to actually earn a living from using their natural talents.

I also pick up in this thread, a certain degree of disdain, anger and bitterness towards musicians who DO charge and who ARE able to make their living from their music. It should not be this way...and sadly, many of you, so it seems to me, have helped to create a situation where, in playing your music for nothing at festivals you continue to allow festival organizers and the public to assume you are not worthy of earning your living this way, despite the deep amount of hard work so many of you put in, whilst those very same people are perfectly happy to pay plumbers, builders, gardeners, whoever, £10-£30 (add your own £experience) an hour for THEIR natural talents.

As Mick stated above, Pete Seeger was passionate about this subject, feeling that musicians should have the right and the expectation, (which is SO important)that their wonderful skills and years of hard work are valuable to a world which is in dire need of the talents they have been blessed with, and have spent such a vast part of their lives improving upon, to bring joy to others, to raise political points, to bring love to people...etc..etc..etc..


And perhaps, Dave, you might apologize not only to me, but also to the memory of Pete Seeger, for daring to suggest that he too 'engaged his mouth before putting his brain into gear' purely for doing all he could to get musicians to feel great pride in what they do.

Thank you
Lizzie

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 14 - 06:08 AM

good stuff AM! why not record them and get some pal to put you versions on youtube -so they are always there for anyone with the wit to look.

artistically - the suns always shining for Martin Carthy, Show of Hands, Ralph McTell and the rest of the merry band - always thousands of willing listeners, always the best studios, media exposure,etc . the rest of us have to shift for ourselves as best we can.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Airymouse
Date: 16 May 14 - 11:20 PM

I am not a musician, so my opinion doesn't count. I know 15 or 20 versions of old (=traditional, vernacular, folk, etc.)songs that I believe cannot be found in a book, on a CD or over the internet. These songs were not sold to me; they were given to me by people who loved them and I believe these people were also given the songs. I am pushing 75, so rather than have these wonderful songs die with me I give them away to anyone who will listen.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 14 - 06:34 PM

yeh...that's it Jack. exchanges like that make mudcat such a fucking pleasure sometimes however - if you'd ever ventured out of 100acre wood of the folkscene - gone out into the real world of commercial gigs - you would know that insults availeth nought.

I decided a long time ago what I wanted to do with my life. practiced till I was good at it.

I've been abused by professionals.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 14 - 03:53 PM

My 'talent', such as it is, is indeed mine - mine to do with as I choose. I neither ask, nor need, the permission or approval of anyone else to perform for free - it's my decision and mine alone. Nothing to do with anyone but me.

IMHO.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 May 14 - 03:48 PM

Sat backstage with the rest of the band , can't get front of house to see the other act.

2,000+ audience. Got to wear slap, cost a mint to be here when you take hotel, fuel etc into account and doing it all for free.

The charity concert is a type that doesn't get much of a say in this thread. Mind you, the pleasure of audiences you'd never get by sitting in a singaround is a buzz. A different buzz to be fair, but great fun.

On in 10. Tatty bye.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 May 14 - 03:18 PM

On scanning this quickly growing thread it seems to me that there is only one sort of musician about...rhe fully skilled ,esperienced 9semi) pro. Not the case. I'msure we can all remember our early days when even doinf a floor spot at the local club was more effective than a laxative. We then neededa graduated range of types of performance space, from local open mics and singarounds, to local festivals or pub night s where a solo spot was offered and a pintof beer would have ben gladly accepted, until growing skill and confidence made you feel able to charge a fee. Some, for various reasoons of time or ability, never got beyond the odd pintwill be fine threshold. When one is working regularly, one often performs for charity do's, especilaay in the barn dance world. We never reduced our fee for what were other people's charities, raising funds was their concern. We did , however put by a few gigs a year where qe would play for localcharities that we supported ourselves. When people are trying to make a profit, then 'an opportunity for exposure' is not sufficient inducement to go and work for someone else. It IS really difficylt for small venues to make a profit, es[ecially when they're being screwed by the pub company. I've come to think that a percentage deal can be fair to both sides.

Subject: RE: Why Do Musicians Work For Nothing?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 May 14 - 02:51 PM

I can't perform even in folk clubs - the audiences have their agendas - just like the guys down the boozer have - and basically there so many other singers on the folkscene, prepared to bore the arse of everyone

Sounds like your problem is that you're so much more boring than the performers you're griping about that word has got around. Why else would you be box office poison?