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BS: Whither now England?

Stu 21 May 14 - 08:50 AM
GUEST 21 May 14 - 09:39 AM
Musket 21 May 14 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,LynnH 21 May 14 - 01:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 14 - 02:54 PM
akenaton 21 May 14 - 03:56 PM
GUEST 21 May 14 - 06:48 PM
Brian May 21 May 14 - 06:58 PM
GUEST 21 May 14 - 06:59 PM
Rapparee 21 May 14 - 07:48 PM
Rapparee 21 May 14 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 May 14 - 01:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 14 - 01:42 AM
GUEST,LK867 22 May 14 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 May 14 - 02:56 AM
Musket 22 May 14 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 May 14 - 03:42 AM
Richard Bridge 22 May 14 - 03:43 AM
Stu 22 May 14 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 May 14 - 03:55 AM
Backwoodsman 22 May 14 - 04:31 AM
GUEST 22 May 14 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 May 14 - 06:06 AM
Musket 22 May 14 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 May 14 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 May 14 - 06:37 AM
Stu 22 May 14 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 May 14 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Eliza 22 May 14 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 May 14 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Eliza 22 May 14 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 May 14 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,Giok 22 May 14 - 05:33 PM
GUEST 22 May 14 - 05:46 PM
GUEST 22 May 14 - 05:58 PM
The Sandman 22 May 14 - 06:08 PM
Richard Bridge 22 May 14 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 May 14 - 02:11 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 May 14 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Eliza 23 May 14 - 02:52 AM
akenaton 23 May 14 - 04:12 AM
Jim McLean 23 May 14 - 04:16 AM
Stu 23 May 14 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 May 14 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 May 14 - 04:44 AM
Stu 23 May 14 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 23 May 14 - 05:03 AM
Musket 23 May 14 - 06:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 14 - 07:51 AM
Musket 23 May 14 - 08:06 AM

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Subject: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 21 May 14 - 08:50 AM

Tomorrow is the European elections and it's entirely possible that the country has lurched so far to the right a xenophobic, mysoginistic and homophobic party could conceivably win these elections. We could, as the UK, be sidelined in Europe by an electorate voting for an ex-public school, ex-stockbroker, ex-tory establishment figure that has convinced the disillusioned people of England that he's some sort of maverick when in fact he's the opposite; the product of empire and a political anachronism. He's received blanket coverage from the media, who love him for his 'straight talking', bumbling, nice-but-dim, boozing, smaggo persona that designed to bridge the gap between the likes of him and the rest of us. He's a PR genius and not without some oratorical ability. He's also a hypocrite of the highest order, a shill for the establishment.

It's also looking like the Scots are finally going to shake of the Westminster Yoke and vote for independence later in the year. Already they are beginning to deny their role in empire, preferring to blame the English for their collusion in the oppression of empire but as anyone who has ever been to Edinburgh know (a city of empire if ever there was one), the Scots were willing and eager partners in empire, leading a renaissance in science, trade and art which established the modern Scottish state and provided the foundations of what will hopefully become a vibrant and progressive Scottish nation in years to come.

Meanwhile, the Welsh are established in devolution and the long, torturous road to lasting peace in the north of Ireland is being worked on and is indeed desired by all but a few on out islands; the long-term outcome remains uncertain but hopefully it will be achieved peacefully. The Cornish are finally given minority status and there is how some measure of devolution might follow with the long-wished for re-establishment of the Stannery.

So where does this leave England? The UKIP effect is already being felt as the ordinary people of the EU are beginning to see us a bunch of racist ignoramuses, small-minded and mean-spirited. As a people the English have totally lost their identity which has become muddled with the worst excesses of Britishness and has been hijacked by nationalists that are inevitably right-wing in outlook.

As a nation the English have lost the sense of themselves. Why is this? Possibly because the ordinary folk of England, as with the folk of all our islands have been under the Norman Yoke for a 1000 years and seem unwilling or unable to shake the parasitic aristocracy off their backs; even the Scots want to keep the ultimate benefit cheats in Buck Pal as their royal masters. These people are nothing to do with the ordinary folk of our islands, yet our politicians still serve them and their new oligarch masters with equal fervour. The church has some culpability here too, growing fat and rich and gobbling up land.

The dominance of the south-east of England has become so complete that when the union breaks up a large part of England will essentially be left to the mercy of the Westminster political/media/business mafia.

So here's what I think. We need to remember who we are. For starters, there are only one people on these islands, and we have divided ourselves culturally. This is fine and it's wonderful of course but we must remember that every person living here is a mongrel, and we are adding more diversity to our character every day. From the first people to cross after the retreat of the glaciers 14,000 years ago via the beaker people, celts, romans, norse, saxons, jutes, Jews, huguenots, Africans, Asians, the Windrush generation, Romanians, Polish and whomever comes next; we are a fantastic amalgamation of all these.

We are better than these right-wing oafs. This is the land of Stonehenge, Avebury, Arbor Low and Castlerigg, of Boudicca, the Battersea Shield and druids, the Lindisfarne gospels and Sutton Hoo. Under our hills Arthur still sleeps and in our woods the wild hunt sounds it horns and from lofty, vaulted ceilings the green man looks down on the ebb and flow of ordinary people still labouring under the heel of the privileged few, although now business has swelled the ranks of the wealthy and powerful. England is the land of Watt Tyler, Winstanley and the diggers, the chartists, luddites and suffragettes (in 1918 40% of men could not vote in the UK, and it was not until 1928 that women got the vote - it's been a long struggle for ordinary people). Shakespeare, Blake, Wilberforce, Darwin, Pankhurst, the Rochdale Pioneers and the Tolpuddle Martyrs all were pioneers that prove that we are a people equal to our brothers and sister nations on these islands in being able to claim to be progressive and humane, at least at the level of the ordinary folk. We need to understand why people hate us, and address it as best we can.

The English can do better than the boorish, tiny-minded tosspots of UKIP and the other right-wing loons. We deserve to take our place in a confederation of the isles as equal partners with all the home nations. We are all one people on these islands and those at the high table have been trying to divide us by religion, economics and the promotion of myopic self-interest for a millennia.

Time to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 14 - 09:39 AM

Effin' UKIP arsewipes...

If we stay in Europe, skint UK musicians don't have to pay VAT and import duty charges on musical equipment bargains
purchased from German mail order mega stores...


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 21 May 14 - 01:15 PM

It has to said Stu, there are times when I am shaking my head.

Of course, most normal people in England are warm, inviting, non judgemental and kind. We are a very multicultural society and embrace diversity. T'was ever thus.

The snag is, it is the boorish ignorant peasants who shout loudest and are an embarrassment. The simple superstitious ones who think bigotry is respectable and the disgraceful ones who try to show our dubious past in a revisionist light.

But you know what? Fuck 'em. They are the sad minority, up their own arse and think people agree with them when in fact their popularity is due to the celebrity fascination of the self serving media. We even get them on here for crying out loud. Winding themselves up like they were Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse as The Self Righteous Brothers.

Mind you, there is hope at the end of the tunnel. One on here claimed to support UKIP once and has been wriggling out of his claim ever since.

No, I'm not quite as sceptical on these matters. A wake up Euro election will frighten people into not letting loony twats get in next year where it matters, in the real election. Despite the urge to give Cameron a bloody nose, I hope most Scottish people won't vote for another Darian venture for that matter.

The snag is, everybody has to be somewhere. We live amongst bigots, angels, sports teachers and idiots. Their vote is as valid as the next and as in all matters, the vast majority of people are too intelligent to fall for ideology. That's why we have a coalition. Nobody fell for dogma last time.

Politicians from soap boxes are like vicars from pulpits. They pontificate and get all judgemental but intelligent people smile and look the other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 21 May 14 - 01:41 PM

Looking at the disUK from the outside for over 30 years now I can't help feeling that a lot of people, not just UKRAP haven't progressed beyond 1918, let alone 1945 ( or should that perhaps be Waterloo?)
That being said, Front National in France and the various right wing movements in The Netherlands, Germany, Hungary etc. aren't any better. By all accounts the FN, for example, wants to do for modern art what the Nazis tried to do to it in the 1930s


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 14 - 02:54 PM

No-one is interested, but Musket often tries to discredit me by linking me to UKIP who I have NEVER supported.
That is what most of his post was about.

I have always been anti-EU but UKIP will just split the centre/right vote allowing in a pro-EU Labour government and we will never get our referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 May 14 - 03:56 PM

Saw Mr Osborne on BBC Parliament tonight, assuring everyone that should Scotland vote for independence, he would refuse to countenance a monetary union.

Why would the UK government take such action if not as political blackmail?    Surely it would be in everyone's interests to continue the monetary status quo, to facilitate the trade which is certain to still go on after independence is secured?

Mr Osborne does his country no credit by adopting these tactics.



"The snag is, everybody has to be somewhere. We live amongst bigots, angels, sports teachers and idiots. Their vote is as valid as the next and as in all matters, the vast majority of people are too intelligent to fall for ideology."

Three guesses as to who wrote that! The person who's whole life seems to be controlled by infantile "ideology".    :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 14 - 06:48 PM

Friday should be fun...but who'll take over the Marr show on Sunday?

Nobody's defined what'll make Scottish nationality, but that simply means the existing rules will apply, it'll depend mostly on where you were born and partly where your parents were born, but at the very least it'll mean Gove is forced to move into Jockland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Brian May
Date: 21 May 14 - 06:58 PM

Hmmm to vote UKIP or not?

People I've never met might be angry and become abusive . . .

I might be called a racist bigot (again)

What a shame . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 14 - 06:59 PM

You need to get rid of the Bank of England, same as America needs to get rid of its Federal Reserve. The Anglo-American banking system is the cause of most of the woes in western society. Usury will do that.

Also, you need the right to bear arms. Your "excellencies" will continue to crap on you as long as they have nothing to fear.

Oh, and stay out of the European Union. Bad stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 14 - 07:48 PM

Scotland leaves the UK, charges England rent on Scapa Flow and similar places. Elizabeth II has apoplexy, Charles III comes to the throne and invades Scotland. Brandishing his burnished blade he yells, "Remember Flodden and Culloden! Up and at 'em, lads!", turns in his saddle, and finds everyone at the pub -- Scots and English, polishing off pints together.

Meanwhile, the Welsh take back the Marches and require everyone to eat leeks at least once a week -- it's called "Leek-a-Week" -- and because of the speech which Henry V of England gave before Agincourt (or at least Shakespeare says he did) tell the House of Lords that because their blood was "gentled" they, too, want to take their rightful seats.

Knowing better, Cornwall, Ulster, Mann, and the rest simply keep their own counsel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 14 - 07:51 PM

By the way, the referendum in yesterday's election here in Pocatello, Idaho to repeal the city's ordinance insuring equal opportunity in housing, etc. for the LGBTQ community went down in flames. And trust me, there ain't many places that lean more to the Right than Idaho.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 01:25 AM

Your Idaho experience is a case in point. In the final analysis, pointing at others and despising them is soooo c20. That we see it in developing nations is awful, although it gives our own dinosaurs somewhere to foam at the mouth about.

Interesting that I can think of three people on these threads who have offered support for UKIP but only the ones who are quick to disassociate think I meant them. One of whom thinks everything I say is aimed at him, such is his sense of self importance.

Still, he may well be voting today and that is a sobering thought. Me? I sent my postal vote in last week. As a vote for LibDem is a spoiled paper, the dismal choices of UKIP, Conservative, BNP and myriad little England causes meant Labour were the only choice. Snag is , I'm not sure they are ready to be encouraged just yet.

Notice how I say that Scotland risks shallow fools putting the idea of giving the present UK government a bloody nose above what's best for the country? Nice to see my point being made. Still , Alex Salmond has done more than any predecessor for respecting equality of others , introduced gay marriage etc etc, so nice to see who will vote for this liberal socialist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 14 - 01:42 AM

I am glad that I was wrong to assume that you linked me in any way to UKIP.
Why do you not just name people instead of using innuendo?
Is it because they can refute your claim and make you look silly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 22 May 14 - 01:58 AM

An election is a formal decision-making process by which a population chooses an individual to hold public office. So do you support a representative democracy or not ?

You can always stamp your feet or take your ball and go home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 02:56 AM

"Nobody's defined what'll make Scottish nationality"

That isn't true Guest. The Scottish gvt have given their proposed definition in chapter 7 of their white paper.

Some people will automatically qualify as Scottish citizens. For instance British Citizens who are habitually resident in Scotland including those with dual or multiple nationalities; and Scottish born British Citizens currently living outside of Scotland.

Others will be able to apply for citizenship. For instance through descent from a parent or grand-parent; those who have a demonstrable link to Scotland; or migrants on qualifyiing visas.

Of course the exact rules wouldn't be laid down unless it actually happened. It isn't for one party to dictate what would be - it would be for the Scottish Parliament to agree it as a whole. But it is simply wrong to suggest no-one has defined it or addressed the issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:26 AM

No Keith, I just said you rushed to a conclusion.

If the dunce hat fits, off you go to the corner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:42 AM

"This is the land of Stonehenge, Avebury, Arbor Low and Castlerigg, of Boudicca, the Battersea Shield and druids, the Lindisfarne gospels and Sutton Hoo."

Unfortunately, it will soon be the land of housing estates - as far as the eye can see. We're told that there's a shortage of houses (that's probably partly true) but I suspect that all the main political parties are pushing for build, build, build on every square inch because, at present, their 'masters' - the developers and speculators can't satisfy their insatiable, planet-consuming greed fast enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:43 AM

I have finally made up my mind. I used to think that it was necessary to vote Labour to keep the conservatives out, but more and more tehy have become patsies of the neoliberals and joined the rush to the right for fear of UKIP racism. What has finally nailed Labour's coffin for me is the failure wholly to condemn TTIP (US readers think TPP).

As you go out to vote today remember the most important issue today for the survival of our species. If Big Oil can deny global warming, our children drown. If it fracks, the land is poisoned. If Big Pharma can sue governments who try to save bees - remember if the bees die out so do we. Some say Frankenfoods are safe - but Thalidomide passed its safety tests and the UK government denied BSE, and Edwina Currie was run out of government for admitting the truth about salmonella. If big pharma and agribiz can take campaigns against government safety measures to secret tribunals made up of corporate lawyers, tribunals from which there is no right of appeal, we are not safe from being poisoned by our environment. TTIP must stop now.

The measure of Labour on this is that 3 days ago I emailed the official Kent Labour group to ask them to clarify whether they condemned TTIP in toto or not (it is a matter of record that they want an exemption for the NHS over compulsory tendering - aka privatisation) and they have not bothered to get back to me. I have finally made up my mind. Labour are no longer fit to be regarded as an opposition. They are just another bunch of neoliberal scum participating in the race to the bottom.

I'm off out to vote Green. Enough is enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:49 AM

" Surely it would be in everyone's interests to continue the monetary status quo, to facilitate the trade which is certain to still go on after independence is secured?"

Scotland won't be truly independent without its own currency. By hanging on to the pound she will still be at the mercy to the Bank of England which will inevitably lead to cries of victimisation and foul play (perhaps justified) but even were it totally above board it will lead to resentment and continuing, festering hatred of the English.

It'll be tough, but Scotland needs to get shot of sterling to be truly independent.


"Also, you need the right to bear arms. Your "excellencies" will continue to crap on you as long as they have nothing to fear."

On dear. Did you not read my original post? You won't get anything done with guns, and we don't want them (in fact, we want less). Elizabeth Fry didn't need them, neither did Winstanley or Turing. The Rochdale Pioneers weren't tooled up. Time for you to read some English social history.

Anyhow, all the guns in the US don't stop the government spying on every move of their own people, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Guns are there to comfort cowed, powerless, deluded and frightened people (some of whom who inevitably, end up slaughtering innocents). And farmers.

Nope, despite the excesses of our ruling classes ordinary English folk can organise themselves and effect profound social change. The dominance of UKIP and the rightward shift of all mainstream parties is of concern because the answer to our problems isn't a blanket 33% income tax, total privatisation of the NHS and the further demonisation of minorities, who are no more than scapegoats for government incompetence.

We can do better. We can be progressive and I firmly believe we are, as a people of the home nations (including England) naturally compassionate, humane and care deeply about protecting the vulnerable in our society.

We need to shake off the shackles of this monarchist/oligarchical political climate and move towards a to more forward-thinking, long-term and socially compassionate economic system that sees people as living beings, not just numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:55 AM

I wrote to all of the local candidates (apart from the Greens)in today's elections asking why there was virtually no mention, in their election literature, of the most pressing problem of the 21st Century - the environment. I have not received a single reply (presumably they regard environmentalists as nutcases?).

Anyway, I suspect that the real reason why they didn't reply is because the ideologies of their parties are, essentially, 19th Century ones - now all deeply corrupted by neo-liberalism (the Tories, of course, didn't need much corrupting!) and they have no answers. If we have to wait until the 23rd Century for a truly 21st Century political ideology (one that puts the environment first) to emerge - it will be far too late!

I'm hoping that UKIP is just a 'flash-in-the-pan' - does anyone remember the SDP?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 14 - 04:31 AM

Correct on all points, Stu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:04 AM

@Allan Conn
Which is pretty much what I said, I think.
But that's typical of Scotland, wanting to wag the English dog: we may well stick with our definition, but instead of being born in the UK, it's born in RUk. It may be legally difficult to withdraw nationality from someone already holding it, unless they opt for a different one, and forcing joint nationality on others born in Scotland may be equally objectionable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:06 AM

"festering hatred of the English" For there to be a continued festering hatred there would need to be an existing one! There isn't. Not for the vast bulk of Scots anyway. There are exceptions of course....every country has its bigots.

As to the currency union obviously it would assist trade but yes, would still have a big downside. The current supposed housing bubble with talk of rising rates and the drawing back of Help To Buy is an example of what would remain post independence within a sterling zone. Outside small enclaves there is no housing bubble in Scotland. As is so with much of England too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:19 AM

The housing bubble is something to do with The South East and London.

A friend in North Notts bought a new house in 2003 and paid £310,000 for it. He sold it last month, having spent some money converting an integral garage into a second living room and building a new garage etc, all investment.... For £190,000.

You know, even the ones who see conservative governments as protecting your personal investments wonder what the hell is going on. Let alone those with none.

We are getting the rental generation now, who will never be able to afford to buy a property, or will hover in negative equity for years should they try. How you square that with the government's drive to have old people sell their home to pay for residential care is beyond me. The government will be picking that particular tab up once that generation needs 24/7 care.

I didn't write to any candidates. All candidates feel all voters fit into one particular pigeon hole or other. Something that global communication, education and awareness has given us is a far more sophisticated younger generation or two. Social stereotypes and division don't interest them. Social class is a two way street of have versus have not. Branding at birth, politically and socially is anathema to them.

Interesting times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:27 AM

What I replied to was the statement saying that no-one has defined what would be Scottish nationality! As I said it has been defined in the white paper as to who would automatically qualify as Scottish citizens. No-one would be forced to be Scottish citizens but everyone British residing in Scotland would qualify - and no-one in the Yes camp is talking about withdrawing anyone else's nationality. The UK currently accepts dual nationality as will Scotland. English born people in Scotland could be Scottish and UK citizens. No barriers from the proposition by the SNP anyway.

What is the alternative option? Tell people living in Scotland who weren't born here that they won't qualify for citizenship automatically and they will have to apply for it??? My wife was born and brought up in Norfolk but has lived here for over quarter of a century bringing up two Scottish kids. It would be absurd if she would not automatically qualify for citizenship. I can see that many people living in Scotland would object to having to apply - but can't see why anyone looking into it would object to the proposition in the white paper that anyone British living here would qualify automatically. It is completely inclusive.

If there was a Yes vote then for many people born in Scotland it will affect their nationality depending on what the rUK decides! If Scots on the whole want to remain UK citizens then the only way to ensure that is for them to vote No. It is democracy. We are quite capable of making our beds though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:37 AM

Your absolutely right Musket. In Scotland when purchasing the lenders will accept transcripts of Home Reports without the purchaser paying for a valuation. If not done within the past 3 months the valuer needs to refresh it. I see lots of them from over a year or more ago which are being refreshed with no increase in value and in some cases still dropping in value. You wouldn't think it was past the wit of politicians to say right "Help To Buy" is ending in London and certain other post-codes etc. It already is different. maximum £600K in England but only £400K in Scotland.

Or indeed limit it based on someone's personal income. I mean if you are making £150K between the two of you - do you really need a gvt supported scheme? But a couple on £25K combined!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 22 May 14 - 07:54 AM

"English born people in Scotland could be Scottish and UK citizens."

Hmmm. Surely that would mean they weren't English then . . . or would it be more like being awarded a badge of Scottishness? I'd check the buggers voting history if I were you.


"For there to be a continued festering hatred there would need to be an existing one!"

Then it's time for Scots to recognise that 'the English' are not to blame for the state of this union any more than they are, they were equal partners in empire and they don't have exclusivity on progressive politics or the promotion of a humane and equal society. Appalling all these generalisations, aren't they?

Kings, Queens, Dukes, Earls, Lairds, Barons, politicians, Clan Cheifs business etc etc are responsible for repressing the ordinary folk of these islands for centuries, and we can kick the ball back and fore across Hadrian's Wall until we're all dead and buried and a thing won't change.

We should all be equals. Once the Scots go, the chance of us as a people uniting to stop these parasitic poltroons will be gone, so we need another way. Scotland should lead this way, but recognise they are no more the chosen ones of these islands than anyone else; suggesting the Scots have sole access to the moral high ground hints at deeply flawed mindset: all the British people should know this by now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 14 - 10:14 AM

Excepting though Stu no-one on here has suggested that the English are solely to blame for the state of the union, or that only Scots have sole access to the moral high ground etc etc. So don't quite know why you're throwing that at me.

As to the they can't be English thing - well people will define themselves as they wish. If a recent poll is to be believed then nearly 30% of English born people living in Scotland support Scottish independence and I'd imagine a good chunk of those would be happy to accept Scottish citizenship. Whether they'd still see themselves as English people with Scottish citizenship or not is surely up to the individual?

People will define as they want though not how others think they should define themselves. Also it depends how the question is asked. For instance in the latest census 62% of people in Scotland said they were only Scottish; 18% said they were Scottish and British; 2% said they were Scottish and some other mixture; and only 8% said they were British. In various polls the sense of Britishness was higher because an extra category was used resulting in less people saying they were only Scottish. People could say they were "more Scottish than British" but couldn't do so in the census. It seems many Scots are happy to say they are British too but many of those are not willing to give it equal status with their main Scottish identity. So multiple identities are quite complicated.

I know some English born people living in Scotland who call themselves Scottish - I know some who say British - and I know others who say English. It is up to them!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:02 PM

My sister has spent nearly her entire life in Scotland. She arrived at eighteen to attend Uni, qualified as a doctor and has devoted her whole working life to her patients in a hospital in Dundee. She has two daughters born in Scotland. Our father was a Scot. I wonder if she will have to apply for Citizenship? And what will happen to her pension? She's actually quite worried, as she loves it up there and wouldn't want to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:13 PM

Eliza. Mrs Musket is a fellow of The Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh and we attend lots of social bun fights. The main topic these days is on two levels.

Carrying on Academy of Royal Colleges guidelines and recognition of Scottish medical school right of entry to GMC registration and vice versa.

NHS pension where you have worked on both countries.

Mrs Musket was advised years ago to buy her years in Scotland to ensure the English scheme honoured her " house jobs " time. That was before idealistic nationalism became mainstream respectable.

Interesting times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 14 - 03:19 PM

That's interesting Musket.But sis has never worked in England, so she wonders what will happen to her NHS pension. She was widowed at 36 so has no husband's income to help her out in her retirement, which is imminent. (She's miles younger than me!) I daren't ask who she votes for, as she's a bit fierce and would tell me to mind my own business!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 04:28 PM

If you work in one country, I assume there is no problem in essence as it is unfunded. In other words, the government promise a pension in return for giving them money whilst you work.

So long as the Scottish government can afford it, she should have no problem.

So long as they can afford it. ...

The public sector in Scotland is unsustainable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 22 May 14 - 05:33 PM

Well Stu, there's nothing like a balanced post, and that, is nothing like, a balanced post.
Scotland, or any other country for that matter can use whatever currency they want.
They can use Monopoly money if they want. Why do you think it is possible for all theses local currencies to pop up, everywhere?
No matter how much we deny it, UKIP is saying what the electorate want to hear. Maybe not what the folk community wants to hear, but then the folk community is almost 100% left wing. The main parties are running scared, because other parties, dare to say what they do not.
I hold no brief for any party, but I can detect hypocrisy when I see it, and that's what the stench shows, around the corridors of Westminster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 14 - 05:46 PM

Come on now, which one of you posted this in Piccadilly Tube Station? You were obviously just hanging around...


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 14 - 05:58 PM

The mainstream political parties may need to get better but UKIP aren't the answer.

People may vote for them because they are different but unfortunately they see differences in groups of people too.

Frightening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:08 PM

Richard Bridge has decided to vote green , that is about as interesting as Steve Davis playing Snooker, go for it Richard Bridge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 14 - 06:58 PM

If you could play snooker as well as Steve Davis, bighead, I might listen to your views about who can play guitar which you TOLD me is not your primary instrument. A little respect for others might serve you well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:11 AM

"I wonder if she will have to apply for Citizenship? And what will happen to her pension?"

She won't need to apply for citizenship Eliza. As I have aleady pointed out in the thread all British citizens habitually resident in Scotland will automatically qualify for Scottish citizenship! That has always been the stance of the SNP and it is stated in part 7 of the Scottish gvt's white paper on independence. Of course that is their proposal and they may not be the gvt in a future independent Scotland. However the idea that any of the other parties (Labour, Tories or Lib Dems) would seek to deny your sister citizenship is pretty far fetched.

The Scottish gvt has also published papers saying they will protect existing pension rights! Of course Musket is correct. As long as pensions can be afforded - but that applies to the UK itself as much as Scotland - however the Scottish gvt seems to be ringfencing pensions. Some argue that Scotland could possibly even afford to have improve pensions as just now according to some stats Scottish women get £11K less in their lifetime than women elsewhere in the UK and men £10K less. This though is due to lower life expectancy rates which I take it an independent Scottish gvt would seek to improve rather than use as a means to try and afford better pensions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:30 AM

Another point Eliza. You say she has never worked in England so wonder what will happen to her NHS pension? In truth though it is an NHS Scotland Pension Scheme that she will be in. The NHS is not one single UK wide institution and never has been. The Scottish and the Northern Irish National Health Services run their own pension schemes seperate from the scheme run by the NHS in England and Wales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:52 AM

That's reassuring, thank you Allen. She really loves Scotland and would never consider coming south now.
Won't it be interesting to see how everyone voted yesterday? I've spoken to several friends in the village and they say they intended to vote UKIP but changed their minds at the last minute and voted Green!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:12 AM

UKIP make large gains all over England, despite a huge propaganda campaign by the media, to smear the party as racist and homophobic.

An example. Mr Jon Snow anchor man of Channel 4 news, when interviewing Mr Farage on his stance on Europe, made the following snide smear.   "Mr Farage, I hesitate to use the word "black" in front of you, but wouldn't you accept that you are a bit of a black sheep in the European Parliament?"

I don't agree with all of UKIPS policies, but these results provide a well deserved slap on the face to the people who think their ideology should apply to and be adopted by, everyone in the UK..... who accept no alternative views and discount whole swathes of what used to be known as the silent majority.

Congratulations to a brave man who spoke his mind against the combined power of the media, and found his ideas reflected in a large part of UK society.    Well done England, and I hope the Scottish people will continue the revolution against cant and idiocy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:16 AM

Latest paper released by the Westminster government:

SCOTS can expect to remain ­British citizens if they vote for independence, the UK Government has conceded.


In its latest analysis of the consequences of independence, focusing on borders and citizenship, it says it is likely that Scots would be able to hold dual Scottish and British nationality.

The next generation of Scots would also be British, the paper suggests, as children inherit citizenship under present UK rules.

Their children would not be British, as British citizens outside the UK cannot pass on their citizenship more than one generation.

As British citizens, Scots would keep their existing passports and continue to qualify for UK consular help abroad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:17 AM

"So don't quite know why you're throwing that at me."

Please don't take anything personally, I'm not throwing anything at individuals, just trying to stimulate discussion. Also, I'm in the Yes camp.

There is, deny it or not, much pejorative talk about 'the english' in this debate (not here perhaps, but go check out the comments sections on many of the major newspapers sites). This idea that there is some separation of us as a people beyond our regional cultures is simply wrong. There is a distancing (necessary to a degree, I understand) that has become something more; look south to see how that ends up.

"No matter how much we deny it, UKIP is saying what the electorate want to hear."

Given that the media have given Farage a campaigning platform on every bulletin this is hardly surprising. You could put a used bog roll up for election and it'd poll high with that amount of airtime. It's easy to scapegoat certain parts of the population in times of austerity. The fact UKIP hate anyone not british, women and homosexuals makes their job easier as we seem to be undergoing some sort of social regression as a society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:35 AM

Ask people if they want mass immigration and they will say no.

Ask people if they want doctors and nurses when they need them and they will say yes.

UKIP aren't a success story for far right thugs, they are a failure story for complacent incompetent present politicians.

If people actually thought, and serious commentators are providing the information to form a view, that UKIP in Brussels is a positive contribution to our influence and dealings with partners, or that their ideas as opposed to thought out policies would increase or even sustain growth, or even worse, that a gang of stockbrokers, bankrupted disgraced ex Tory politicians and racist thugs give a tuppenny toss about the poor and vulnerable in society....

It is interesting that the majority of people voting for them would suffer most under them.

To date, they have and will not have a single council. BNP put up many of the same candidates and got some council seats a few years ago. Most didn't run the course as you can't represent your ward from a prison cell. Their backgrounds get analysed by the media and the love in with Farage won't last forever.

The media only set you up in order to kick you back down.

If the voters want the smell of smoke again in public places, people being told their marriages are illegal, import tariffs on what they buy, export tariffs on what they sell and kicking out of NATO, carry on following the racist buffoon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:44 AM

Come on Stu you can look on the internet in discussion groups and on youtube etc on any subject and there are trolls and idiots throwing insults at each other. I'm talking about reality amongst the population as a whole. Amongst Scots in general there is not the festering hatred that you suggest - and the debate is not based on that.

The second comment that you're replying to was not my comment just in case anyone thinks it was. I have no truck with UKIP and the Daily Mail in Scotland has even been trying to liken Salmond to Farage over the past week or so. Which of course is ludicrous. There is no comparison between the inclusive welcoming (ie to incomers) nationalism of the SNP and the xenophobic rants of some UKIP candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:51 AM

I do wonder if there is a bigger picture here. The right are making gains across Europe, and the rise of austerity has coincided with the increasing inequality within our societies. I'm not sure I know a soul who believes that our politicians are anything but people in it for themselves, to accommodate big business and maintain the status quo. Thing is, Farage is a variation of the status quo, a sort of sub-species of right-winger and not a challenge to it at all; they want a blanket 33% tax rate, a policy that would plunge a fair number of their supporters into the poverty they fear.

We need to remember our own radical social history, give prominence to those who worked for the common good of all the people on our islands and beyond, and the English need to invoke the spirit of these people and embrace our natural desire to build a fair society. We are not the politicians, oligarchs and aristocracy of that rule without accountability and without compassion.

We are better than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 May 14 - 05:03 AM

It's the same old, old, old story, isn't it? If you want power, wait for one of those periods of economic instability and austerity, that capitalism produces at regular intervals, and then blame foreigners, outsiders and the poor and all of the ignorant, selfish, xenophobic nerds and gits will fall over themselves to vote for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 06:41 AM

As we see, put the idea into some peoples' heads that sections of society aren't equal and they will believe any bullshit you can throw at them that there are reasons to "deal" with them.

You can even trawl threads here to see it. Luckily, the ones here are little people of no consequence, but a vote is still a vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 14 - 07:51 AM

What kind of a person sees others as "little people of no consequence?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:06 AM

Any reason for reacting Keith?

This is a serious thread. Let's not pollute it with the tripe that informs your fixation with me. I'd be flattered if you happened to be a person of consequence.


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