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Country and Irish Music

The Sandman 02 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM
Stringsinger 02 Jun 14 - 10:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,HAZZARD 02 Jun 14 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,# 02 Jun 14 - 11:43 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM
The Sandman 02 Jun 14 - 01:28 PM
Jack Campin 02 Jun 14 - 03:03 PM
The Sandman 02 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Seamus Kennedy 02 Jun 14 - 05:27 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Jun 14 - 06:05 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 14 - 11:17 PM
The Sandman 03 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 14 - 05:19 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 06:46 AM
Dave Hanson 03 Jun 14 - 07:03 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 07:25 AM
Dave Hanson 03 Jun 14 - 08:51 AM
Teribus 04 Jun 14 - 04:34 AM
Tootler 04 Jun 14 - 04:53 AM
Joe Offer 05 Jun 14 - 12:14 AM
Teribus 05 Jun 14 - 02:02 AM
Ole Juul 05 Jun 14 - 02:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM
The Sandman 05 Jun 14 - 12:57 PM
Seamus Kennedy 05 Jun 14 - 02:42 PM
Ole Juul 05 Jun 14 - 03:11 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Jun 14 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 05 Jun 14 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,Desi C 06 Jun 14 - 06:43 AM
mayomick 06 Jun 14 - 07:14 AM
mayomick 06 Jun 14 - 08:14 AM
The Sandman 06 Jun 14 - 01:34 PM
Ernest 06 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM
Airymouse 06 Jun 14 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 06 Jun 14 - 03:37 PM
The Sandman 07 Jun 14 - 07:04 AM
The Sandman 07 Jun 14 - 07:06 AM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 07 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,grumpy 07 Jun 14 - 02:06 PM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 14 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,Desi C 08 Jun 14 - 05:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Jun 14 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 08 Jun 14 - 06:18 AM
Rog Peek 08 Jun 14 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Learaí na Láibe 08 Jun 14 - 07:20 PM
GUEST, Alan - UK Folk Music website 09 Jun 14 - 10:17 AM
The Sandman 09 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Learaí na Láibe 09 Jun 14 - 02:31 PM
pdq 09 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM
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Subject: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

I cannot understand its popularity, it seems to consist of a formula of death, looking at the past through rose tinted spectacles, sentimentality, and a compulsory mention of somewhere in ireland.can anyone explain why it is so popular?


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 10:05 AM

The Irish maintain a bardic approach to songs, a narrative that describes incidents and
chronology interjecting occasional sentimentality as found in most American ballad forms even those rewritten as popular songs such as "The Gambler" and "Lucille".

In short, they like songs that tell a story.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM

love it!
why is it popular

1 people can dance properly to it. waltz's, jives, two steps
2 Ireland has some of the best country musicians in the world
3 there is this great encyclopaedia of style the yanks have provided for us - the shirts, the telecasters, the big cars, the hats etc
4 as Elvis Costello says George Jones, Merle Haggard, Merle Travis have written this great blueprint for talking about the tough working life. and the Irish can always be found doing the toughest jobs.
5 - listen to Johnny MacEvoy
6 your mum. your dad, your grandad -all understand it - its not about being a sulky adolescent


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,HAZZARD
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 11:23 AM

There's also a phenomenon all over the world of country music being particularly popular in urbanising areas (incl. areas of the USA where this is still occurring). A lot of the music is about leaving the old home place for the big city, missing Mam, et cetera. Those sentiments are pretty relevant in Ireland (esp wrt emigration).

It's not my cup of tea, particularly!


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 11:43 AM

Play the songs backwards and the dog lives, pickup starts and wife comes home.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM

Dick, do they dress up for it where you are?

I found that pretty surreal in Glasgow. A bar that was all that remained standing of a tenement block, surrounded by bulldozed rubble, broken glass and collapsing fences, packed full of people in glittery stetsons, rhinestoned boots and designer jeans or white leather skirts singing along with numbers about being a wifebeating drunk in Georgia. It was a friendlier environment than football bars tended to be, but you had to leave your sanity at the door.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 01:28 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdQ9uIYBOJElets analayse the lyrics, i lost my love i cried a lot, i got a broken heart, plus drum machine, riveting.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 03:03 PM

Well, I listened to the first number.

You forgot the monster trucks.

And it's got some nice moothie flourishes that I bet Steve Shaw could do well.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM

String singer made a point about narrative about incidents, I maintain that folk song does that more comprehensively than irish country music. my folk repertoire would include songs about love, poaching, fishing, mining disasters, transportation, emigration, fornication, historical events, fairies,shanties.
String singer I have a lot of respect for your comments generally, but Ithink you are wide of the mark, by a country mile with that one.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Seamus Kennedy
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 05:27 PM

Dick - A lot of American country, old-timey, bluegrass, etc. is based on Irish and Scottish songs that came over with the settlers. It has been adapted down through the years, with modifications to lyrics and melodies to country music as we knew it 30 or 40 years ago. Today's country music singers are a bunch of failed rock & rollers who, when they couldn't make it in rock put on a black cowboy hat, torn jeans and T-shirt add succeeded in selling their pablum as country music.
Ireland and the rest of Britain in general are in a little time warp. American country was always popular because the songs as Stringsinger said told stories, but were also based on melodies that were familiar. Country and Irish is is own little hybrid of American Country and Irish songs. It touches something primal in the Irish psyche.
When it's well done, it's excellent, but like modern American Country, when it's badly done it's horrid.
There are a lot of Irish country musicians who could more than hold their own with the best that Nashville has to offer.
See you in a couple of weeks, Dick.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 06:05 PM

Well, for once I agree with Dick. What is that shit? Is it even music?


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 11:17 PM

YouTube usually crashes my computer after 10 minutes or so = blue screen of death. Luckily, Dick's link did it in less than 5 minutes! A very discerning (albeit crap) graphics card can be an advantage sometimes....


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM

the other thing I found unusual about country and irish is that very few dress up as red indians, they all seem to be cowboys. when i lived in stowmarket, there was a country and western club called the ponderosa, and there were red indians as well as cow boys.
i have to say while i am not a great fan of CW, It does on occasions deal with issues such as strip mining, mining etc, dark as a dungeon is IMO an excellent song, BLACKWATER is also an excellent song


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 05:19 AM

bit of racism going on here - why is country music any worse done by Irish people. they take it seriously - they do it well. I prefer their earnest approach to the Hank wangford tongue in cheek stuff with its all middle class subtext - hohoho aren't we superior to all this shit.

can't see why pretty little girl from omagh, catch me if you can, the old dungarvan oak - are inferior to Jambalaya and Oh lonesome me. similarly something like the Galway Shawl is often done as a waltz - whereas if someone like the Dubliners do it its almost a lament.

the fact is - this folksong gives a lot of pleasure as a waltz.

its just a different way of playing the music, of viewing the music.
the trouble is that you traditional folk people cannot accept that the music is bigger than you. it has more aspects, more contexts - it is hardier growth than you allow.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 06:46 AM

CW - effin' hilarious - great genre.

I mean what other could deliver such as this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjkLf_X88WM&feature=kp


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 07:03 AM

Over sentimental shite.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 07:25 AM

Ah yes Dave but you've got to admit really atrocious over sentimental shite of epic proportions


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 08:51 AM

Quite right Teribus, try listening to to ' The Lightning Express ' by the Everley Brothers, I'd rather listen to Nick Clegg reciting his laundry list.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 04:34 AM

See what you mean.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 04:53 AM

Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 06:46 AM

CW - effin' hilarious - great genre.

I mean what other could deliver such as this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjkLf_X88WM&feature=kp

I couldn't decide if that song was serious or just a big piss take. I'm inclined to the second.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 12:14 AM

On my first trip to Ireland (August 2001), I was very disappointed with the music because we heard American-style country music in every venue we visited in the West of Ireland. "Las Vegas in the Hills of Donegal" (by Goats Don't Shave) was the big local hit of the day. We walked into one bar and the band leader said, "Here come some Americans - guess we'd better play some Irish music." And they launched into "Black Velvet Band."

And then Martin Ryan rescued me in Dublin, and we went to a couple of terrific sessions - Frank Harte was singing at one of them. My second trip was in May, 2012. By that time, I knew where to go, and I went to some wonderful sessions in Dublin and Galway. Didn't hear no country music nohow. And no "Black Velvet Band," neither.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:02 AM

Definitely a piss take Tootler in this version of it Gerry Vine explains so on stage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJdK-EJuKg


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Ole Juul
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:05 AM

@ Jack Campin, you made me scroll all the way to the end to see where the "monster trucks" were. :) There weren't any! Let me be the hillbilly pedant (from mining country). Those are rock trucks. Monster trucks are from a different culture with slightly different music. Example.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM

I am really sorry you people don't get it. you are most definitely missing out.

can't explain it - but country music - is part of the warp and weft o Irish folk music. stuff like Brennan on th Moor, Whisky in the Jar are so near in spirit to ballads like Jesse James. surely the connection is obvious.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 12:57 PM

with respect Al, country and irish is sentimental escapism that avoids any social comment issues, at least CW does so occasionally. brennan on the moor and whiskey in the jar are not part of the repertoire that i have been unfortuntely exposed to.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 02:42 PM

I'm with Al on this, Dick. We'll have to argue about it over a pint in Kinsale :0)


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Ole Juul
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:11 PM

BAW:"can't explain it - but country music - is part of the warp and weft o Irish folk music. stuff like Brennan on th Moor, Whisky in the Jar are so near in spirit to ballads like Jesse James. surely the connection is obvious."

I'm with you, but then I think that all popular music is folk, though not necessarily traditional, which is where I think people balk.

GSS:"with respect Al, country and irish is sentimental escapism that avoids any social comment issues,

Can't one not look at it as there being two kinds of "social comment"; those which are made deliberately from without, and those which are made from within by example?


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:12 PM

not sure i'd agree. eleanor macEvoy's version of the peggy seeger song about father's working away on England's motorways is to me more poignant - being sung by an Irish woman -singing in a style I can imagine being sung at a dance in an Irish social club dance.

similarly johnny macevoy's song about Michael Collins is still regarded as controversial in some quarters.

I am not an expert.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:38 PM

Irish and Western was most of the music in most of Ireland back in the 70's when even Dick was young.

Diddleydiddley's popularity in England (we were emulating Irish records) brought the Comhltas lot out of the community halls into the pubs. The rest is Keltic music. Ans Seltic music.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 06:43 AM

Well, firstly just because you or anyone else derides it, does not at all make it BAD music. The fact that it IS so popular worldwide should make that obvious to you. I'm not keen on trad Jozz, Pop, Rap etc, but they, indeed pretty much ALL genres have their own formula i.e why do so many Folk songs have far too many verses?
Others on here explain the Irish migration link to American Country very well. It satisfies that longing for sounds of home when you're far away, theredore is comforting and warming, plus sad songs have always touched people more than other topics. That you 'don't get it' says more about your lack of musical appreciation than the actual quality of the music. Variety is the spice of life


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 07:14 AM

Country and Western owes more to Irish music than the other way around. It was taken up enthusiastically in Ireland because Irish people recognized it. The automated drum beat comes from the same place that gave us the bungalows, East Enders ,Page 3 girls, Magdalene Laundries etc


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:14 AM

By the way , GSS mentioned the lack of genuinely traditional Native American music in Ireland .I very much doubt if anything as authentic as this has reached sleepy old west Cork yet , but you don't have to go all the way to Stowmarket to hear the real thing nowadays .You can see this lot - feathers and all - and hear them all the way down O'Connell St nearly every day of the week . They have a cd for sale as well just to let people know that, though they they may be bound in buffalo hide , they are by no means hidebound traditionalists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbJ6iGyc-50


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:34 PM

GSS, mentioned the lack of irish country enthusiasts dressed as red indians,he did not mention the lack of genuinely tradtional native american music in ireland, neither did he say about any native american music being available in stowmarket.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Ernest
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM

Besides that South Americans dressing up as Movie-Style-Plains-Indians are not authentic at all.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Airymouse
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:11 PM

It's hard to write a good country-and-western song: just ask one of the thousands of singer-songwriters who will sing you their songs ad nauseum (< 5 minutes). The key is simplicity. Here are some guidelines. There are only a handful of acceptable topics: mother, truckers,prison, lovers, divorce. The trick is to work several of these topics in to your song. The Fry index of a song is a fraction, whose numerator is the number of syllables of the song and whose denominator is the number of words. A Fry index of 1 is perfect. Somebody like W.S. Gilbert exemplifies the sort of lyrics you should avoid. Never have rhymes like "Caradocs" and "paradox". The tune must also be simple. In the key of C there should be no sharps or flats. You should be able to play the tune on the piano with one hand, without moving your hand. The rhythm must also be simple. Stephen Foster's "Beautiful Dreamer" is a beautiful song, but you shouldn't use that tune. I bet there has never been a country-and-western song in 9/8 time. Your best bet is one-two one-two or 1-2-3 1-2-3. Whatever rhythm you use, you must pound it in with an electric guitar and a set of drums. I have a colleague, S. Chang, who treats the amplified guitar as a musical instrument. His way of playing (You Tube schang1971) is exactly wrong. Remember you're not trying to play music, you're trying to pound in the beat.There, I think I've told you all you need to know to write a hit song.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:37 PM

Of course, when criticising country music, people always jump on the small percentage - and getting smaller very year - of sentimental type songs; but, of course, in that respect country music is merely carrying on the music hall sentimental ballad tradition.
There is no doubt that currently country music is producing an absolutely stunning list of great musicians and songwriters, and Nashville has become the first choice destination for many of the top recording artists across all the various popular music genres.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:04 AM

tunesmith, perhaps you would gives us let say 12 examples with you tube clips.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:06 AM

tunesmith ,rember i am talking about country and irish please find me 12 stunning you tube clips of country and irish, country and irish not bluegrass


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM

About 20 years ago there was a Scottish group (from Oban?) who did country music in Gaelic.

Is there anything parallel in Ireland? and if so, is it any good and does anybody listen to it?


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

Jack, there's a lot of that sort of thing in Connemara, where Country music is all the rage. I wouldn't be able to tell if there's anything there that's any good but there's this sort of recordings of it available.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:06 PM

This is the king of Connemara country and Irish scene - John Beag Ó Flatharta.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 06:48 PM

I thought he was pretty good. And not all that Americanized in his material despite the Willie Nelson image. I have no idea what any of it meant though.

Did I spot a version of The Battle of Aughrim in there? - I don't think that was written in Nashville.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:26 AM

I have to disagree with TUNESMITH re current C&W producing great stuff. I think most people would agree that what's beeb coming out of Nashville for the past 20 odd years is unadulterated Rubbish. watered down Pop or Pap at best


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:49 AM

I would also disagree that the C and I songbook doesn't have a lot of sentimental stuff in it. it does - but that in a way points to its roots in American country music of an earlier age and Irish music hall songs and parlour ballads.

I remember talking to the agent John Wall a few years ago. I think Geof Higginbottom bought his agency off him. maybe I am wrong on that.

John was recalling the glory glory days of his Nashville club - was it in Leeds, he said. both Christy Moore and Johnny MacEvoy used to gig the club. Johnny had had a hit over in Ireland with Muirsheen Durkin - but he was trying to make it over the water. So he was doing the club for £25. Christy however was only on £5 -and the deal was he had to dig John's garden, as well do the gig.

john said, I have a photo somewhere of Christy in the garden with my cat on his shoulder.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:18 AM

'the deal was he had to dig John's garden, as well do the gig'

Well, that explains the thing with the shovel then, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: Rog Peek
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:01 AM

I believe it's not politically correct to call them 'Red Indians' these days Dick. Teeeheeheeeheee.

Rog


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:20 PM

I'm not a fan of C & I, but at least some of it is identifiably Irish in accent and delivery even if it uses the familiar rhythm and composition of American Country.

Unlike Rock, which 60 years after coming to our shows is still sang by Irish bands in a phoney American accent with all the songs composed with American syntax and slang.


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST, Alan - UK Folk Music website
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 10:17 AM

I must confess that I like some country music and loads of Irish songs and Tunes.
I went to see Nottingham Band - Kelly's Heroes yesterday and had a great time. Lively stuff and great entertainment.
I sometime suspect that the folk scene / folk clubs forget that music should be entertaining..

Here's my video from yesterday Kelly's Heroes


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM

what do kellys heroes have to do with country and irish?


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:31 PM

Alan, thanks for link to Kelly's Heroes, but I agree with Good Soldier, that's not C&I.

Something more like this.

T. R. Dallas


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Subject: RE: Country and Irish Music
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM

This seems more like it...

                                     T. R. Dallas "Warning Lables"


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