Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.

Subject: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 12:42 PM

Does anyone fancy playing for dancing as part of the Northgate Festivals

I've offered to call some dances collected around 100 years ago, as part of history day.

I could do it with recorded music, and probably will because I feel embarrassed about asking people to work for nothing. But if anyone would like to volunteer.....

The organiser thinks we'd do it 'for the exposure'. I suppose I want exposure for dancing so he must be right.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 12:58 PM

The organizer hopes he can get free music. "Exposure" is rarely a good reason for asking a musician, a writer, an artist, to contribute to a commercial enterprise and get no payment in return.

IMHO, they must think we're stupid.

SRS

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 01:10 PM

Go ask the Chester Minstrels at St Johns on 28th.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 01:36 PM

The organizer hopes he can get free music. "Exposure" is rarely a good reason for asking a musician, a writer, an artist, to contribute to a commercial enterprise and get no payment in return.

In principle this is correct, but there are some exceptions. Is this History Day a free event with no (or little) funding? It would be good to see local traditional culture included in this and I would be up for playing for it if it were in my area.

We are playing and calling for a street party in our street and there is no income and so we will not be charging. (Mind you, we have a well-paid festival event earlier that day!)

We were approached recently by the admirable self-help disabilities group in our town to ask if we could provide a barn dance for their members who are, inevitably, or low or no income. I did not hesitate to say that we would do it without charging.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 01:43 PM

asking a musician...to contribute to a commercial enterprise and get no payment in return...they must think we're stupid.

Did you look at Mo's link, SRS?

"How much do Tickets cost? Nothing, they're Free"

I wouldn't dream of calling you stupid, SRS, as I've read many of your posts. But try not jumping to conclusions (I might start confusing you with Lizzie Cornish...)

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 06:50 PM

The next event is a meal and the food isn't free, so the event isn't free, Ed. What's so hard to understand about that? Why jump to assertions of stupid like Lizzie with so little information?

And even if the event is free to the public that doesn't mean there isn't a budget put forward by sponsors, and I'd be willing to bet they're not asking free-standing participants like food vendors to give way their food or crafts people to give away pots or textiles or whatever is on display.

If the managers of the events put up signs, they probably paid the printer. They may need to pay for the venue space. There are lots of costs in events that are "free" to the public.

There are some arts where those outside of it perceive the practitioners are so desperate for attention or publication that they'll perform for free hoping to drum up business later. I'm not a musician, I'm a writer and photographer. I've heard it before.

SRS

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 07:01 PM

One happy medium that too many organisers (and often musicians too) forget is that of the passing round of the hat.

No matter how low your budget is, there's nothing to stop anyone asking for donations.

At an afternoon gig at a family-friendly pub the other week I took along a big cardboard box labelled 'Tips'. The organiser, a nice guy, had been very apologetic in advance about the fact that it was a free event, he wasn't getting paid, and none of us were getting paid either. I made asking for tips a running joke as part of the gig. Ended up with around 20 quid.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 04:54 AM

I think I'd want to know a bit more about how the event is structured and financed. If this is a genuine free not-for-profit community event then being asked to play for free is not unreasonable. However just because the event is free to the public doesn't mean that there isn't a budget or that the organiser isn't getting paid - in that case why shouldn't they pay performers something?

I'm always suspicious about 'doing it for exposure', as if they're doing you a favour, whereas you'd be doing them one by playing for free. If there's a good reason not to be paid then they should say so.

I can see nothing on the link about the nature of the organisation - if it is a not-for-profit why don't they shout about it? They say nothing - oversight or deliberate evasiveness?

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 05:22 AM

It's the traders in that part of Chester (well, one trader really) trying to bring people to that part of town.
I'll share more information with anyone interested in doing it - don't want the slanging match to turn personal, as it can on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: doc.tom
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM

I've known people die of exposure!
On the other hand - Go Mo - we all do things for free to promote our music, song & traditions.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 05:41 AM

People who provide printing, food etc, have tangible, consumable overheads. Of course they are going to charge, at the very least to cover their costs. But in all likelihood, the concessions will also have paid a fee to be at the festival, which is an additional overhead cost to be covered.

Even if an event has budgets, something put together relatively late in the day will not be budgeted for. If the musicians and caller think it's worth doing the event because they will get exposure for our music & dance and raise its profile amongst a non-folk audience, more power to their elbow. Imagine if we demanded payment every time such an occasion presented itself. Hardly in the spirit of folk as I understand it.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 07:12 AM

It happens all the time . I "turned out" for Border Morris Side on a couple of occasions recently ; one was a "Britain in WW2 " event on a Steam Railway Line , the other was at Sudely Castle . On neither occasion did we receive anything at all, not even a cup of tea (!) , but I guess we did it because we love it , and are "well off" enough in our private lives to be able to afford this indulgence ! And it WAS very enjoyable !

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,Horney Codger
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 08:22 AM

Simple compromise; if the organizers are not offering money,
tell 'em you'll do it for sex !!!

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 10:37 PM

I have probably done FAR more 'Free' gigs for charity than I have been paid for - As long as 'The Organiser' is NOT profiting , and a Good Cause is , I am happy to oblige as longs it is NOT a 100 mile drive involved ! LOL

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:53 AM

HC - I'd run a mile first.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

I was at our local music store talking with George, the owner - a retired public school music teacher who also plays out & does sound- and I mentioned the other thread regarding paid vs. unpaid gigs.

They provide the sound equipment & technician for the fiddler's fair we've been supporting the past 5 years, and will again this year.

The first year was very uncertain if the organizers could pull it off, so the sound system was gratis. They drew a thousand folks- it was one of those beautiful fall days and it got good publicity. So after that, the sound system & technician get paid for. There is still enough money made to support local charities and George makes his donations in other ways.

The point here is that there is choice involved... and not just for performers. In a free society...   one where individuals can make choices... they should be allowed to exercise their choices without being second guessed.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:38 AM

You're right, science geek. If I lived near Chester, I would volunteer because I would consider it good fun.

This is just another of many, many Mudcat threads where people will argue about ANYTHING rather than the actual playing or singing of music.

MO, someday I would like to hear more about your dances collected 100 years ago.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:47 PM

Fanning the flames a bit more with a recent essay.

Here's a snippit:

A familiar figure in one's 20s is the club owner or event promoter who explains to your band that they won't be paying you in money, man, because you're getting paid in the far more valuable currency of exposure. This same figure reappears over the years, like the devil, in different guises — with shorter hair, a better suit — as the editor of a Web site or magazine, dismissing the issue of payment as an irrelevant quibble and impressing upon you how many hits they get per day, how many eyeballs, what great exposure it'll offer. "Artist Dies of Exposure" goes the rueful joke.

SRS

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:21 PM

I clicked on the link but couldn't ascertain which event you're referring too.

If I'm free, I'll be up for it.

JJ

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:06 PM

Whoops. I should have put a date.
I am calling a Tea Dance on June 29th. The theme of the day is 'A Journey Through Time'. Starting with Marinella Medieval Band. I suggested dances from 100 years ago, but could equally easily do '400 years of dancing', if a musician preferred that.

I am also involved with the 'History Alive' on August 10th. The Sealed Knot are organising a Living History event all weekend, and the Northgate festival are putting on 2 stages of music and dance that tie in with the seventeenth century theme. I have been asked to find as many acts as possible for that. So far I have a dance display team, dancing Playford and Regency dances, a group playing Hurdie Gurdies etc., a story-teller and a Maypole. Yes, I know that the Maypoles the Puritans banned didn't have ribbons, but the organiser thought it fitted, and last year when I taught maypole plaiting it was fairly successful (until it rained!!!). So I shall teach some C17 dances around the pole, then some Victorian plaiting which is what people expect.
So I am also looking for people to play or sing in Rufus Court, and to play (about 15 minutes or more non-stop) for Maypole on Abbey Green.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 05:50 PM

JJ, Thanks.
I've pm'd you my email address (but you'll have to log in to see it)

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:45 AM

Mo, that sounds so pleasant and enjoyable.

Can I share? Last night I had dinner at a very expensive restaurant. (not my idea). For FOUR HOURS they played 1940's jazz. Canned, of course. Thin-voiced, cold-hearted, wheedly singers accompanied by trumpets, etc. Much of the accompaniment sounded like somebody dropping a basket of silverware.

How I envy you the melodious and friendly music you will have at your festival.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:32 AM

'Much of the accompaniment sounded like somebody dropping a basket of silverware.'



I have heard certain types of folkmusic described as 'nasal dirges over a background of bouzouki and guitar sounding like a fork drawn over a birdcage'.

The eye of the beholder and all that.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:17 AM

JJ have you checked the dates?

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:12 PM

Ah, I've just had a pm from the member JJ who is not the same as Guest JJ. You will find my email on my Blog - click Profile in the bottm right corner.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: John J
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 02:23 PM

Hi Mo,

Just sent you a PM.

JJ (the other one!)

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:51 AM

Got your email, thanks

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: GUEST,Muggie
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:41 PM

A general statement ....
I don't mind at all playing for free - in fact I find it more enjoyable and less stressing.
That said,I don't like being taken for a mug either, i.e. watching others coining it in at my expense.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 06:23 AM

Exactly. I'm sometimes confused at where to draw the line. Chester has a lot of free 'community' events, e.g. the Minstrels Court organised by a musician who works in a local museum, the Giants who parade at midsummer and midwinter, revived by an enthusiast with co-operation from local schools and Adventure Playground and the Council. The local traders presumably benefit from these. The Northgate Festivals are organised by the Northgate traders. Is this different? I'm not sure. I don't suppose tourists who are entertained by it notice the difference.

Subject: RE: Musicians wanted - Chester -unpaid.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:33 AM

I'm still looking hopefully for local musicians for Sunday Aug 10th to play for Maypole dancing, and to do spots throughout the afternoon. And dancers willing to weave a ribbon.
Also to play for dancing on Sunday June 29th 4pm -5pm