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Why are musicians such night owls?
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Subject: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: WyoWoman Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:42 PM We were talking over in the "cocaine" thread (yes, it was about music, not a drug link) and Ricardo said "no good songs are written before 2100 hours" (9 p.m. for the Greenwich challenged) -- and it started me thinking about how the really good music doesn't generally start cranking until late in the evening, or really early in the a.m. And also about one of the hallmarks of musicians, which I've observed over years of singing and hanging around, which is that they're all a bunch of night owls. And thinking about my two kids, one of whom was BORN a night owl and could always outlast me in the staying-up sweepstakes and coincidentally (or not?) became the musician of the two. Is this a chicken/egg conversation? I mean, have musicians become night owls becauase gigs happen at night and they are still energized after work? Or is there some difference in the physical makeup of the brain such that the part that creates music also has a different circadian rhythm as well? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? WW |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Rick (yawning) Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:51 PM Simple Wyo. Hardworking folks are tired at night and go to sleep. Musicians need to find some way to make themselves tired so they write all night, and sleep most of the day! Rick (off to catch his 15 hours) |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Little Neophyte Date: 20 Nov 99 - 01:00 PM I think it has to do with lifestyle Wyowoman. People get use to different sleep patterns because of their different routines. Some people are creative in the mornings, others like to work at night. Then their are those who can not identify a pattern in their routine. I also believe our nature influences this. Some people are night owls others are roosters I like to Catnap, others hate resting Mid day I believe we can change these patterns, but most people avoid change and just claim it as 'the way they are'. Banjo Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: WyoWoman Date: 20 Nov 99 - 01:29 PM Well, I keep pretty much daytime hours because of my day job. But it's really hard to force myself to shut everything down and go to bed at midnight so I can get up at 6:30 and go to the gym and then to work. At my last job I was the night editor for the paper and never got off work until midnight, often not until 1 a.m. and that was a much, much more natural rhythm for me. Got in bed at 3 a.m. and woke up about 10 a.m. Then when I moved here and started a job that begins around 9 a.m. it took MONTHS to adjust. But I'm not convinced that it IS just lifestyle, because many musicians don't actually gig. They/we have daytime jobs just like everyone else. When we get together on Saturday, for instance, we don't get together during the day. We meet at "8 p.m." which actually ends up being more 9 p.m., then noodle around a bit and sit and visit and drink a beer and then around 10 p.m. start making music and finally around midnight, we're cookin'. And these jams don't end before 2 a.m. -- often we sit around shooting the breeze for a while after the instruments have all been put away. It just seems as though nighttime is more conducive to focusing on the music. WW |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Little Neophyte Date: 20 Nov 99 - 02:02 PM Wyowoman, there are Morning Glories and Night Hawks. It is part of our basic constitution I am a morning person. I can stay up late, though it is difficult for me to work into the night. I am more creative early in the morning. Give me the bugle, and I'll do the morning wake-up call. That is, after I've finished my Rooster solo Bugle Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Jeri Date: 20 Nov 99 - 03:14 PM I heard a great parody of Gordon Bok's song "Turning Toward the Morning" which had a punch line something like "...and musicians never get up in the morning." Does anyone have the vaguest idea what I'm talking about? Me neither. |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Little Neophyte Date: 20 Nov 99 - 03:24 PM Gordon Bok wrote "Turning Toward the Morning" because a friend of his had a very difficult year and was looking for the courage to keep on plowing into it. Those times, you lift your eyes unto the hills, as they say, but the hills of Northern New England in November can be about as much comfort as a cold crowbar. You have to look ahead a bit, then, and realize that all the hills and trees and flowers will still be there come Spring, usually more permanent than your troubles. And, if your courage occasionally fails, that's okay, too: nobody expects you to be as strong (or as old) as the land. Banjo Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: thosp Date: 20 Nov 99 - 03:31 PM hi Wyo-- have you consulted an astrologer? it may be due to your stars -- possibly a simple geographical displacement--- (disclaimer--- i'm not an astraloger)i would suggest you look at a globe to see where it's nite at the hours that you do sleep --and move there -- i hope this helps thosp -- peace! |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: jeffp Date: 20 Nov 99 - 04:16 PM It's funny. If I'm not playing music, I'm falling asleep before 10. If I am, I'll keep going until all hours of the morning. I think the music gives us energy to keep on going. Of course, now that I'm getting older, it takes me longer to recover from those late night sessions. |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 20 Nov 99 - 05:55 PM I'm tempted to say that when the SO gets in from his gig I'll ask him, but he plays the melodeon so does he count as a musician?? I'm yawning over my cocoa here (I wasnt't joking over in the Saturday dance thread), this is my third cup, it is not even 11.00pm yet, I've been ready for my sleep since 9.00pm, and my daughter, having not had her nap this afternoon, is bouncing around as if it were midday..... aaaargh! LTS
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: katlaughing Date: 20 Nov 99 - 07:52 PM The veil between the mundane world and esoteric is thinnest late at night and in the wee hours of the morning. It is generally easier to *tune* into the inspiration, for a lot of phoaks, at those times. I've got a problem, though. I am a morning person, love to greet the sunup; but, I wind up staying up, feeding my Cat/Music addiction until 1 or 2 in the morning, so....not much sleep. Recently I read about a study that says the cumulative effect of not enough sleep is the same as getting drunk, esp. if one is driving. Does this mean they'll take my driver's license away? Is there a 12 step that will foot the bill for taxis?**BG** |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: wildlone Date: 20 Nov 99 - 08:09 PM I worked until 21:00 last night was in work at 07:00 this morning it is now 01:06 gmt but I allways wake up at night. |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Allan C. Date: 20 Nov 99 - 09:48 PM I guess you'd have to call me a morning person. I swear that I would play a gig at 6 AM if anyone would show up for it. (Who started that "sing for your supper" crap anyway! What's wrong with BREAKFAST?!!) But I will also have to admit that if the energies and muses are still going full tilt for those around me during the late hours, I can usually get a second wind and keep up with most of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: WyoWoman Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:12 PM Well, I wake up cheerful. And I get up early -- as in 6 or 6:30 a.m. So I'm not a confirmed night owl (used to annoy the hell out of my ex-husband that I actually was energetic in the a.m.). But, when it comes to music... So far I like Kat's interpretation best...that veil thing. Sounds good, even if it is B.S. ;-} |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Curtis & Loretta Date: 21 Nov 99 - 01:02 AM I think, basically musicians are night owls because most gigs are at night, and we're just on that schedule. Conveniently, I've always been a nightowl, even as a kid. But I don't only play music at night. I play during the day too, and actually I write songs mostly during the day. Eek, I can't imagine waking up at 6 am and being cheerful! Loretta S |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Nov 99 - 12:10 PM The gigs and the nightlife and the mesmerizing glow of Chicago's Old Town and New York's Gren. Village & Boston's Harvard Square & D.C.'s Georgetown and the myriads of coffeehouses that were everywhere then---------ALL OF THESE were night jobs. Bars (folk nightclubs) in Chcago had either 2:00 A.M. or 4:00 A.M. closing times. They all got an extra hour on Saturday nights---which meant 5:00 A. M. closing time at the Earl Of Old Town. If we got up before noon or 1;00 P.M. we'd be exhausted & couldn't do decent sets the next night--wherever that might be.---We did five sets a night at the No Exit Coffeehouse. After the gig we were too wired to sleep. Things were just getting going then. We all went out for breakfast. Sat by Lake Michgan and held each other in our arms and in our hearts as we sang the sun up like scrffy Woody immitating Orpheus's. The squares were about to take over the streets so, like vampires, the folksingers and their ladies (or their guys) went stumbling up the stairs for more intimate doings before smoke dreams and our spent and delighted exhaustion prompted the deepest sleep you'd ever know short of death. And the next day it was the start of a 4-day festival somewhere in Kansas----and it started all over again... As an old song says----(please accept my new parody)---:
I'm one of the hasbeens--- Yes, that's why revival folksingers were/are night people!! Love to all, Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: katlaughing Date: 21 Nov 99 - 01:37 PM Eloquent and to the point as ever, dearie. I love it! luvyaKat |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: WyoWoman Date: 21 Nov 99 - 04:08 PM Ah, Art, Simply loverly. I wish I had a time machine to go back and frolic along with you all. Thanks for sharing that, it instantly communicated the magic of that time. WW |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Nov 99 - 06:36 PM WW I think we'd've had fun. For sure. But it'd get Kat & HarpG jealous... "He went to Paris looking for answers to questions that bothered him so........"---(J.Buffett) It was the only and the best place to be in the whole world right then and there we were certain------no hangovers----in my head or around my middle----and the neon nightlife glimmering off of wet pavement excited psychedelics that were even better than Ansel Adams/Salvadore Dali noir visions on the finest emulsion layers could concoct. And it was then that urban finery, finally, almost matched Yosemite. I'm crying hard for those with Alzheimers who cannot and never will recall their own. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Nov 99 - 07:08 PM Much later, when I was singing on the Mississippi, every other day I drove across Illinois in the dark (5 months a year) and the sun came up in my rear view mirror as the fields sprouted and exploded like time-lapse photography. The new plowed furrows beccame tall canyons of corn which turned green & bown and were cut so that then, once again, we could see past Hubble possibilities---at least within our own local universe. From here I see I was just lucky enough to sccop up a mere handful of pond water and stare down into it and really see what microbes were in there. But I know I missed so much... I was able to know both ends of the night as well as the midst and the mist of it. None of the photos I took ever did it justice. There was no way to shed proper light on it. But that would've made it day. Art (yet again---Sorry, this thread must've pushed a button.)
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Jeri Date: 21 Nov 99 - 07:23 PM Art, please don't apologize. I've loved what you've written so far, and it's reminded me of times I've had. Like WW, I wish I could have back where you were then. The night is like a secret shared by friends, and everyone holds each other closer then. I wish I could be more eloquent... |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Sourdough Date: 21 Nov 99 - 08:24 PM In the early Sixties, I worked in New York City for a repertory theater called "The Lving Theatre". It was an off-Broadway stage doing a variety of types of productions ranging from a drama based on a group of junkies waiting for their connection complete with an onstage jazz group that included Freddie Redd and Jackie McLean. Anyway, we fished the show around ten thirty or so. It was after eleven when we would leave the theater and no one would feel like going hoime. As a result, we blended into the Greenwich Village night. Sometimes it was for conversation at the Figaro or the Cedar Bar where the abstract expressionists hung out, other times for music at the Cafe Wha, The White Horse Tavern or Goerdes Folk City. On the walls of the Figaro were two sayings. I think they were scrawled nearby the phone in the center of the cafe. One of them inspired a playwrite. You can guess which one. The first said, "It is better to fail your Wasserman than never to have loved at all." The second one asked, "Who's afraid of Virginia Wolfe?" The people hanging around there those Greenwich Village nights was amazing. I found myself in conversations with Alan Ginsburg, Paul Goodman, John Cage, Jackson Maclow, Merce Cunningham - people who shaped their eras in the arts. It was an extraordinary place, Greenwich Village, and it only came alive in the evening. The exception I guess was Sunday afternoons in Washington square. The figure who stands out in my memory is Roger Sprung but I think there were other musicians there whom I just wasn't knowledgeable enough to recognize although I think Phil Ochs and Patrick Skye might have been there. The real music took place in lofts on weekends. Somehow the word would go out as to where the hoot was and a couple of hundred people would show up. One giveaway of the location was that there would be fifteen or twenty motor scooters and motorcycles outside. These gatherings never really began until 10:00 or so if I remember correctly and they never really ended, they just slowed down and people wandered out faster than they wandered in until there was no one left to play. The quality of the musicianship, the familiarity with the music, the accessibility to good music was something that I have never found since. There was a wonderful resource, a music store whose name I forget, but was run by a heavy unkempt man named Izzy Young. Izzy Young managed to be what I considered the center of what was going on in traditional music in New York or at least in the Village. He had books, records, instruments and there was always someone there to talk with (kind of like an imitation mudcat ;-)> I met Mike Seeger there on the day he was getting married. I think he has done that several times since then but I was impressed by my brush with such a splendid musician. Ralph Rinzler would be in there. Ah, hell, I am just rattling on, nos story just a bunch of loosly connected memories. Anyway, it's therapy for me! Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Date: 21 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM if... hmmm i think the first time i fell into a good jamm was special, but then all great jamms are special - there is something about chat rooms like mIRC that have that feeling, or did - i recall some mind blowing meetings there this last year, seems as if there are lots more negatives there these days... really the amazement is there still but now it's not 'in' any one place, we are everywhere all over the planet, it is not music either though it includes that, it is not radio or net radio but includes that too, nor is it net video, it is the internet. the best time to be in cyber world is from 9 pm till 2 am and there is no limit to what can and does happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: WyoWoman Date: 22 Nov 99 - 12:06 AM Mmmm. This is yummy. I'm reminded of the work of an artist I interviewed several years ago in Santa Fe. Doug Dawson, I believe was his name. He was an impressionist, which we generally associate with sun-drenched scenes, but his study of light was the light reflected in urban street scenes by night. I'm remembering a couple in particular that were absolutely brilliant in the way they picked up the reflection of the street light on damp pavement. Just that brief brush with his work permanently altered the way I look at night time. I am so aware now of the planes of light and the reflections, especially when the pavement is wet. His work looks like jazz feels...and like this thread is starting to feel... WW |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Art Thieme Date: 22 Nov 99 - 01:46 AM In '64 I'd taken a bus to New York & when hotels were too expensive I lived on the street---walked all night pretty much---slept in Central Park pretending to sun bathe daytimes leaving guita with a fellow named Jose selling hotdogs on the Staten Island Ferry. Went back there later in the day---got my guitar & stuff & played at the Wha a few nights. Saw R. Burton do HAMLET with crazy streets 'cause Liz was picking him up after the show. Mounted horse cops to keep unruly throngs more ruly. Got fed up after several weeks. Went to D.C. & met Joe Hickerson. (He & I are doing a presentation at the Folk Alliance annual convention in Cleveland this coming February. You are all welcome----if you can take Cleveland in winter.) If there's a blizzard we can occupy & take over the Rock Hall Of Fame. Bring your own Laphroaig and donuts. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: lamarca Date: 22 Nov 99 - 03:02 PM Science News had an interesting article about sleep patterns a few weeks ago (look here if interested). Recently, a few anthropologists and sleep researchers actually started looking at sleep patterns in other cultures. The 2 things I remember best from the article were: 1. People evolved with different wake/sleep cycles. This was a survival characteristic - in primitive times, if you had members of the tribe who were night owls and other members who were more alert in the mornings, etc., you had a better chance of the whole group surviving. People who nowadays are characterized as having "sleep disturbance" disorders are sometimes just folks whose natural body rhythms don't fit our industrial society's rigid 9-5 clock. 2. One primitive society from New Guinea had a set of tribal sleep patterns where the women (who did most of the child care and housekeeping, as with most primitive cultures) retired early, while the men stayed up late "performing rituals". My husband showed that to me, and said "See! I'm performing rituals!" I said "I thought you were just staying up late watching The Nashville Network." He said "Same thing..." This doesn't explain why the best Irish sessions never seem to get going until after 11 PM (or later) - but maybe it's just part of performing the rituals! |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Night Owl Date: 23 Nov 99 - 02:27 AM can't resist jumping into this thread!!!!(Hope the title means I'm a musician!!!) I think that art/music/creativity is basic to our natures.....think that we get so busy with the details of our existence...that by the end of a normal "full" day, our walls are up masking our souls somehow. While playing music with friends/others...I think our walls come down layer by layer and we eventually get down to sharing who we really are, naked, through the art/music. Besides, by that time the sun's almost up and its a shame to waste beautiful sunrises! |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Sourdough Date: 23 Nov 99 - 03:41 AM lamarca, That Science News sleep article is fascinating, really gripping. I don't think anyone could read that without examining what it means to them, their children and to society in general. Discoveries such as that article are the little lagniappes that make hanging arount The Mudcat so enjoyable! Thanks. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: NickTesla Date: 23 Nov 99 - 03:52 AM I've played and slaved in music for most of my 54 years, and am convinced that my nightowl ways are biological in origin. Moreover, creativity involves introspection - more easily attained in an alpha state induced by something but enhanced by the cloak of darkness covering the distractions of life. Besides, night time is "too late" to take care of those problematic details of living, lending procrastination a unique degree of acceptability. Hence, being a nightowl fits the mold of the carefree bard much better than the daytime would. Let the agents and the promoters sweat and toil in the noonday sun. Just get me my deal with 50% of the guarantee up front - and please don't call before 3:00 p.m. if you're looking for more than a tape! |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 23 Nov 99 - 03:58 AM It isn't necessary for Irish sessions to start at 11pm. Whilst on honeymoon in Dublin, we went to the Brazen Head (best and possibly oldest pub in Dublin), for a Sunday lunchtime pint and got into a session. That was at about middday. It was still going 7 hours later, when they paused to move into another room, so they could start the folk club! The pub had closed and opened again twice without any noticeable pause in service except that at about 5.50pm there appeared a row of about 10 pints of guiness, 3 deep along the bar. At 6.01, the door flew open and about 30 men came in, slammed the money on the bar and downed the pint. Guess Mass had just finished. Don't know how long the folk club went on to, because we got dragged off to have our lunch!! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: sophocleese Date: 23 Nov 99 - 10:02 AM Lamarca thanks for the link to that article. I've always had "difficulty with sleep" and this might give a clue to resolving it. I know so many married couples who are split into morning person and night person. Does it happen more once they've got kids? Why are musician's night owls? With the repellent on you can play an instrument you know or sing in the dark on the porch or by the fire till morning and not need any light to see by. Night is a time when we expect less visual distraction and therfore may be more responsive to sound. |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: Mbo Date: 23 Nov 99 - 10:30 AM I'm most definately a night owl! This waking up at 6:30am and going to bed at 10:30pm really stinks, man! I'm used to my old Community College days, wake up at 8 and go to bed at 1. Ah, the good old days before the university...When I do write music, I find that I can only write lyrics at night, around 11 or so. I think it's something about having the day behind you, which gives you time to reflect on all that has passed since the morning. And also, the dark of night sort of separates you from the world, and are free to open your mind to the pen. But when I'm actually composing the music for songs, the best time for me is from 2-5 in the afternoon. I don't write music well at night, and due to "voice distortion" in the morning, I can't write or sing early in the day. --Mbo --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS?: Why are musicians such night owls? From: WyoWoman Date: 23 Nov 99 - 10:31 AM Yeah, I guess that peeling away of layers is what makes it all so special and remarkable for me. You get to know people when you make music with them so well, and sometimes it just takes some time for all the layers of armor to drop off. That's one thing I didn't understand when I started doing music years ago. I thought you just walk in, plop your music down and start singing, as in the rehearsals for chorus or other performances I'd been in. Then I eventually recognized the distinction of getting in a groove and have come to recognize that as a blessed space. And I see it in other areas of my life now. Much of the work I do is collaborative in nature, very much based on a team effort, and some days in the newsroom I can feel us click into a groove and it's just heavenly. (The best stuff there often happens at night, too, but the vibe is definitely more intense...) When I finally, really *jammed* one time years ago, it was me and eight men playing various instruments and I had that remarkable feeling of having been completely without protective layers and completely losing myself in the here and now. I wrote to my friend that it was like making love with eight great guys at once, and not being remotely embarrassed the next morning. Very special, very rare. WW |
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