BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have

Subject: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:05 PM

This afternoon I was doing some ESL tutoring. A student had written, " ... it is unfair to require that each course has an equal number of male and female students ... ", which I corrected to " ... that each course HAVE .... " Despite having warned my student that I would be unable to explain the reasoning behind that correction, I found myself trying to do precisely that, and making a muddle of it.

I know that there are several worthies on here who know this here grammar stuff inside out - anyone care to comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Andrez
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:19 PM

Happy to help. Courses 'have', a course 'has'. The sentence reads each course has…… . I think the student is owed an apology here :-)

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:27 PM

"The student told the teacher that each course has an equal number of male and female students." - that's correct, isn't it? To my mind, it would be absolutely incorrect to use the word "have" in my example.

But in your example? I think I could go either way, but deep in my heart there's the voice of my mother the English teacher telling me that "have" is the correct word in your example.

I think my dead mother is correct, but I don't know why. Oh, wait....I can't believe I found this - it's the mandative subjunctive.

Thanks, mom.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:30 PM

The student is correct, but I know I have made that mistake in speech....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:40 PM

Digression; reminds me of UK "The Army are" and American "The Army is."

Joe, I have a sneaking feeling that I was taught 'have'....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:40 PM

What they said. It's "each...has". "Each" is singular.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:44 PM

No, Joe is right. I was going to say [but he got in first] that the 'that' implies necessity for a subjunctive of intent or compulsion to follow, in strict accuracy; tho of course the subjunctive is largely obsolete in contemporary English, and many stylists would feel insisting on it to be both somewhat obscurantist and somewhat pernickety.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:50 PM

The student is correct, though the sentence is inelegant. It's often a good idea to ditch one's first beloved notion and boldly seek a different form of words.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:56 PM

If only it were the case that I understood this. (I think I've figured out why it's "have".)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:59 PM

The question is not whether or not I am correct: I am correct. The question is, why am I correct? And Joe has kindly and promptly provided direction to the answer. I quote from the link he provided: "Like the formulaic subjunctive, the mandative subjunctive consists of the base form of the verb. It is distinctive only in the third-person singular of the present tense. (In other words, the -s ending is omitted.)"

Thank you, Joe!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:08 PM

Don't thank me, "meself". Thank my dead mother. She regularly appears to me in visions and reminds me of grammatical rules....

Is there no wonder why I awake screaming, after such visions???

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:16 PM

Okay - thanks to your dead mother!

(If her visitations have you screaming, I hate to think of what Mudcat must do to you ... ).

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:19 PM

...as I was finishing my first post in this thread, the word "mandative" popped into my mind (probably placed there by my dead mother the English teacher). I Googled, and there was the answer. You know, I thank God for having created Google. Otherwise, I might have spent days poring through grammar books in search of the answer.

My dead mother's voice also told me that "poring" was the correct spelling, but Google confirmed it.

If it weren't for Google, I'd be in an asylum somewhere, constantly hearing my dead mother's voice giving me grammar instructions....

Did I ever tell you the story about how I found out at the age of forty that my dead mother had been a nun???? Oh, and she taught Latin, too. I was almost sixty before she finally admitted that my Latin was better than her Latin...she died shortly after that, and then the grammatical voices in my head began.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:35 PM

A story? Do tell!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:38 PM

Joe, you're weirder than I thought. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:05 PM

Yeah, but I have a very fun life...

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:37 PM

OK, OK, the story. My mother was a brilliant woman, but we had a very difficult relationship. Still, she and I had deeply intellectual discussions all through the years until she died. When I was about forty, I was visiting and we were having one of those discussions at the dinner table. I can't remember what my mom said, but I responded, "Gee, that almost makes it sound like you had been in the convent or something like that...." And my dad said, "Well, now that you mention it...."

And that's how I found out. I think she was in the convent for a couple of years, but I don't really know. After my mom died, my dad said that after she left the convent, my mom prayed to St. Joseph to help her find a man. And she found my dad and married him, so that's how I ended up being named "Joe."

Now you know.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:44 PM

I'd think St. Joseph would be overworked if that news got out.... even among Catholics.

great story, though

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,ketchdana
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:54 PM

It seems to me that there is an implied word in the sentence:

" ... it is unfair to require that each course (should) have an equal number ..."

Can't justify that right now, but it feels right. Maybe it's all part of that subjuctive stuff you mention.
--Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: LadyJean
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:02 PM

Have is singular, so each course is right, because each course is singular. English, Math and Science would be plural.

I had an elderly neighbor, an RC, who would advise me to pray to St. Joseph. I explained that I'm Presbyterian. She said he wouldn't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:33 PM

St. Joseph was a Jew, and doesn't really know the difference between Catholics and Presbyterians. So, if you pray to St. Joseph, LadyJean, he'll find you a man - whether you want one or not.

And if you bury a statue of St. Joseph upside-down in your garden, you'll sell your house - whether you want to or not....

Gotta be careful about these things.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:39 PM

He have a lot of skills!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: JennieG
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:11 AM

Joe, someone recently told me she had bought a "house sale kit" from a religious supply shop, and was gong to follow the directions......one of which was to bury poor St Joseph! As a collapsed Presbyterian I did wonder about that, I have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:59 AM

Gotta be upside down, Jennie, otherwise you never know what might happen. Oh, and there's something about the face pointing in the right direction - otherwise, it may be that your neighbors will sell their house instead (which may be an advantage sometimes...)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:13 AM

The sense is that each course "might," or "should" have. For that construction the verb have is correct and the verb "has" is incorrect or lazy. I believe the technical term is subjunctive. You would not say, for example, that "he might has a chance to go...".


A

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:55 AM

'Mandative subjunctive' (see above). That would be 'mandative' as in 'mandate', I assume (i.e., something is being 'mandated').

I don't think the verbs 'should', 'might', or, for that matter, 'must', have anything to do with it, other than as analogies - but I'm not capable of constructing an argument to that effect without doing a lot of research, which I don't have time to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 01:58 AM

Curious story, joe - I always wondered how you got that name .....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:31 AM

"something about the face pointing in the right direction - otherwise, it may be that your neighbors will sell their house instead (which may be an advantage sometimes...)"

[think I might give that one a try - yesterday they cut through my gas supply while trying to erect a fence]

On "has" versus "have" - Joe and Amos (and others) are right. It isn't a question of singular or plural, it's about the difference between what DOES happen and what SHOULD happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:35 AM

Grammar evolves, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 06:45 AM

French contains loads of subjunctives. I had to learn them all as my grammar school was very strict. I remember 'eussions pu' ('had we been able to...) My friends and I used to giggle and purse up our lips like posh ladies and say "Eussions pu!" Nowadays I believe the French don't bother with most of the subjunctives, as the forms are very clumsy. The student mentioned above was quite correct. We might say for example, "Were she to apply herself, she'd do better." It seems to be connected with doubt or supposition and not incontrovertible fact. Didn't Shakespeare write something along the lines of, "An it were done, it were done quickly." (Can't remember the blooming thing, I expect Michael does, but you get the gist!)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:00 AM

Thanks for the confidence, Eliza. Here are the first few lines. Easy to google the rest, if desired! ~~

MACBETH: ACT I, SCENE VII. Macbeth's castle.

    Hautboys and torches. Enter a Sewer, and divers Servants with dishes and service, and pass over the stage. Then enter MACBETH

MACBETH

    If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
    It were done quickly: if the assassination
    Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
    With his surcease success; that but this blow
    Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
    But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
    We'ld jump the life to come...

&c &c. Wonderful soliloquy. A frequent misquotation is to render that "'tis" in the first line as another "were"; which is to confuse the subjunctives most unconscionably with the indicatives!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:04 AM

"Grammar evolves, innit?" Yup... " ... it sucks that the courses gotta have the same number of girls n guys... "

S'all I'm gonna say.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM

Hope you not superstitious, BTW Eliza. Don't you know how unlucky it is to quote Macbeth! Mainly in the dressing-room, admittedly; but I have known actors who wouldn't even say its name, and always refer to it as "the Scottish play".

So beware ~~~

Double double toil and trouble!...

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 09:08 AM

It depends on what you mean by "correct."

It depends on what you mean by "evolves."

It depends most of all on how you think your perceived audience will react.

In general, however, Meself is right for the reason given by Joe and others, and the student is wrong. Now what?

Grammatical features like "the mandative subjunctive," which are so difficult to comprehend in the abstract, weren't (for the most part) the mere inventions of elitists. They reflected usage that came unconsciously to people who spoke English. As Eliza says, French has a more complicated subjunctive system than English, and Latin was more complicated still. Of course, nobody was or is entirely consistent. "Grammar" changes when one alternative becomes both usual and accepted as the only proper form for serious discourse between strangers.

Example: In America, TV news people have become addicted over roughly the past decade to saying things like, "It isn't too big of an expectation," "It isn't so serious of an issue." The "of" presumably comes unconsciously from idioms like "It isn't too much of an expectation." For no reason except custom, "Much" requires "of" and the other words don't.

My point: the intrusive "of" is everywhere. Certainly it must have started in ordinary conversation long before it came to TV. But I've never seen it in an edited, printed article. That means it's still "wrong" in formal discourse. In a hundred years it may be "right." (Of course "ain't" and "irregardless" are still "wrong" after many more years than that.)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:37 AM

I have read quite a few Carola Dunn detective novels ( I know, I know...) usually set in England during the roaring twenties. She's lived in USA now for a long time and it shows when her characters say, "Go speak to Susan..." or "You should go try the other door..." A Brit would always add an 'and', eg "Go and speak to Susan..." or "Go and try the other door..."
As to language evolving, I think it's extremely fascinating and we should go with the flow. I particularly like 'innit', but sadly its popularity seems to be waning.
Thank you very much Michael for the 'you-know-who' (not Voldermort!) quote, I guessed your erudition would come up trumps as usual. You'd better break a leg, as I didn't mention the Scottish play, you did!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:41 AM

Regarding Lighter's point about 'of', we used this in Infants' School. If someone misbehaved behind the teacher's back, one would adopt an excessively self-righteous expression, nod threateningly and say, "Ooooooh! I'm TELLING of you!" To tell of something is in fact quite correct of course, but that little word 'of' brings back those goody-goody moments when aged six.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM

At that age children where I went to school (southern England) would say 'I'm telling on you' rather than 'of you'.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:09 AM

We were in Middlesex, and it was 'telling of you'. Isn't it fascinating how language patterns change from one area to another, even those not too far apart?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:26 AM

If the sentence doesn't work for you, rewrite it. Instead of wasting time trying to get one word to fit, rearrange and move on.

Great story about your Mom, Joe! I also have a couple of those internalized parental voices that speak up on occasion.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:33 AM

Eliza: The student was wrong, at least as far as we can say that anyone is wrong when they depart from the standardized rules of grammar. Let me put it this way: " ... the mandative subjunctive consists of the base form of the verb. It is distinctive only in the third-person singular of the present tense. (In other words, the -s ending is omitted.)"

That said, I'm realizing that it's probably pointless to be training ESL students in the correct use of sophisticated grammatical structures, when, apparently, most of those native-speakers who are going to be reading their writing will be certain that the correct usages are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:36 AM

"The student told the teacher that each course has an equal number of male and female students."

This misquotes the OP. The OP said,
" ... it is unfair to require that each course has an equal number of male and female students ..." which might be better (and more clearly) phrased as "to require each course to have an equal number". ...

Written that way, it's "have", hands down.
Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:41 AM

No, if a student's sentence doesn't work for me, I'm not going to re-write it and move on. I'm going to stop, and try to articulate the reasons that the sentence doesn't work for me, with the aim of having the next sentence of a similar nature that the student writes indeed work for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:43 AM

(My last in response to SRS).

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:51 AM

Thanks, meself and Joe.

I will remember this for the next 24 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 11:53 AM

Atta boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST, Eliza
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:04 PM

'I'm telling on you' is the same construction as 'I'm informing on you' - it seems to me to sound more threatening than merely 'telling of', which suggests giving a simple account of something.

---

Topsie has said she wrote this, and typed Eliza's name in the wrong place.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:14 PM

The point of teaching "correct usage" - when the sense of an utterance isn't at issue - is to keep the student from being thought illiterate or incompetent by future, unknown readers or interlocutors.

It may be the sole point.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:16 PM

In my childhood, the phrase was often shortened to, "I'm telling!" Was/is that universal?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:24 PM

Not just often but ordinarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 12:31 PM

My apologies to Eliza, I thought I had addressed my message TO HER (12.04 pm), but I seem to have inadvertently put her name where I meant to put 'topsie'. That message isn't from Eliza, it was from me.