BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?

Subject: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:08 PM

My wife and I have now attended several public meetings to discuss the pros and cons of fracking (UK).
The shale gas companies never show up.
As a result we have yet to hear any of their arguments and they put themselves in a very strange position: do they think that their arguments need no explanation or are they scared that they will be shot down in flames?
At the very least it is extremely rude to not turn up when you have said that you will, or simply not to reply to an invitation to speak, both of which scenarios have occurred.
It looks very suspicious.
Do you think that they might have something to hide?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:30 PM

Most big companies, of this type, do their lobbying, unseen...behind closed 6doors, where they can "stack the deck" and "grease required palms" with the regulators and politicians...where it really counts. They normally have no public face, but employ others to state their case... in their defence...when needed, and not normally at any point before.

While it is a sure thing they will know what goes on in public meeting, it is not viewed in their strategic interests to attend open public meetings, where they could be subject to one, or more unpredictable, uncontrolable and embarassing questions.

You are just viewing the situation from your perspective, not theirs. While you may see it as a missed opportunity for them, they would likely see the meeting as a "no gain scenario" in the overall picture. Public opinion is only a factor if it is likely to influence those who matter (listed in my first sentence). As long as the public has a underlying need for the product, and government the taxes, royalities, and political contributions, IMO, don't expect much to change. People vent at public meetings, and feel good (and look good) for doing it. But, it normally has little impact beyond that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:32 PM

Wanna know about fracking? Go to my Facebook page Frack and read for a couple of months. Don't frack... it'll kill ya. https://www.facebook.com/groups/187245954789252/

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:36 PM

BTW... here is the pinned post at Frack...

There is a lot of info on this page but I just want to rhetorically ask one question before I submit the body of this pinned post... if fracking is safe, why was it exempted from the requirements of the Clean Water legislation of the USA through the Haliburton Loophole?

This is a repository for news media coverage, reports, studies, ongoing debates, government actions/legislation, court cases, accidents, incidents, protests... whatever. It is NOT a discussion forum. It is meant to be a resource for anyone seeking information on fracking. Note that while I encourage people to inform members about protests/protections by sharing urls for such group pages and websites with brief descriptions, sharing posts of these is not permitted without an explanation of why they should be allowed. Thanks for your understanding.

Please send me a message if you want to be added to this group as I am sometimes busy elsewhere or forget to check for requests more often than I would like. I have had too many people request to become members who have no timeline, no friends and no observable reason to join this group. If you are not here to contribute meaningful posts in line with edifying members about fracking, don't bother to request becoming a member.

BTW... there are hundreds of links here in Frack so don't feel daunted when reading them. Read what you can and do what you can do to disseminate the info. Additions to our collective edification are truly appreciated.

Finally, I live in nb.ca so posts may be specifically about nb.ca more so than other locations.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:49 PM

BTW... in addition to NA links, you will find lots of UK links at Frack. And Australian and... nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:18 PM

"Why won't the fracking companies speak?"

Utah Phillips said, "The Earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses."

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 02:05 AM

It's pointless attending meetings, or signing petitions, or camping out at likely fracking sites, or any of the other things that anti-frackers involve themselves in. The truth is that the decisions have already been made, the deals done, and the palms crossed with silver. Fracking is here, it's inevitable.

My town is one that will be fracked beneath. Sold out by those bastards in Westminster. I wonder if they'll be fracking under Camermoron's home?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM

"The truth is that the decisions have already been made, the deals done, and the palms crossed with silver."

That is true, of course. That is how things work. But it doesn't mean that you should disengage from the process and stop protesting - that is handing victory to the evil, greedy ones on a plate! Remember that everything from slavery to the, seemingly, unassailable power of the tobacco companies to poison their 'customers' were all 'done deals', decided behind closed doors. If no-one had protested there would still be captive people being forced to work on sugar and cotton plantations and people dying from preventable lung cancer.

My MP once told me that there are not enough votes in the environment - well there won't be ANY votes if the environmentalists disengage! Environmentalism is a war - just as anti-slavery was a war. War is a risky business - you aim for victory but you constantly risk defeat. Wars can be won by adopting clever and novel strategies and tactics. But this particular war is not going to be won by endlessly telling people who agree with you what they already know - that's just a waste of energy and has no tactical or strategic advantage!

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM

I'm not going to defend the fracking companies here, and many of the concerns about the possible real cost of extracting do seem to have foundation. The debate as to international independence from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Russia versus whether the cost in real terms is a subject ideal for such public meetings and consultations.

The fracking companies however, whilst conveniently not attending such debates are legally just the contractors. The government are offering the licences and it is with them and the local authorities that debate should be taking place with. If you reach a stage where you are discussing with the contractors, the debate has already been won and lost.

I suppose on a similar subject, we are surrounded by wind farms that we weren't asked about and the latest I hear is someone wishing to turn a field down the road from me into a solar panel farm. I must admit, I've got a few on my roof for that matter, but they are well hidden and nobody can see them...

The arguments against fracking include some statistics that don't really stack up in reality. Likewise, the assurances don't seem to either. More information rather than polarised opinion is needed. Hopefully before Backwoodsman has to connect the gas cooker to the cold water pipe....

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM

In the US, BNSF Railroad is marketing its ability to ship fracked crude oil by rail. As the Sacramento Bee reports, this poses a serious hazard for those of us who live along the railroad tracks. As far as I know, the Union Pacific is not shipping oil on the Donner Pass Route that goes past my home, but BNSF is apparently using the Union Pacific's Feather River Route, which goes through a Sierra mountain pass that is ecologically sensitive, the watershed of the Feather River that feeds into the Sacramento River. A derailment could poison most of the water supply of Northern California.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

If you're really concerned about fracking, form a local organisation. It need only consist of a few people but make sure that those people have relevant skills. You should exclude (often tediously vocal) moaners and whiners who are eager to identify problems but expect someone else to solve them. Everyone in the group should be prepared to take ownership of problems. The organisation should then set itself some limited goals and objectives

As Musket says above, the implications of fracking are a bit blurred at the moment. An initial key task of your organisation should be to do some objective research and to find out exactly what the country is letting itself in for. Also find out what your local politicians think - are they pro-, anti- or undecided. If they're pro- or undecided, can you motivate the local community to make them change their minds? Remember that politicians are primarily motivated by votes.

Finally - and I hesitate to write this - if fracking goes ahead, and the perils we've been warned of are real, then environmental disasters may happen: Whole communities may be damaged by earth tremors, or others subside into sink holes, or water supplies might become contaminated. In such an event, could your organisation play a role? Is there a possibility that you could advise local people what to do in such a disaster happens or help them to claim compensation?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 06:02 AM

"...the implications of fracking are a bit blurred at the moment..."

No. They are not. Research before you speak. When I said, above, that it would take one two months to review my compilation of research, I meant EXACTLY that. Two solid months - every day. The bottom line is, do not allow unconventional horizontal hydraulic fracturing of gas bearing rock.

Protest is a dirty word here. It's 'protection' and it works. Fracking is being banned in many countries and in areas within many other countries. The problem is, it is not happening fast enough to prevent water and air pollution that kills... immediately and for a very, very long time after the gas is gone.

I shall add, I have no intention of taking the time to edify any herein. The research is easily accessible to anyone who wishes to edify themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 06:31 AM

Gnu, I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject. But if you are right, then there is even more reason to evolve effective protest strategies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

It is an uphill battle when, for economic reasons, the regulators are often in league with energy development proponents.

The promise of potential of cheap local energy to fuel lifestyles blind the public. Economic concerns increasingly outweigh environmental concerns. Few take the time to read vast amounts of research, prefering to rely on "marketing messages" for information. Well crafted industry and government marketing approaches are often effective in crafting public attutudes. Protests have a decreasing public impact, except with the converted.

Trust that government regulators will protect the environment has led to much environmental degradation in the past, and will likely do so in the future. Environmental protection laws increasingly serve the interests of development. Reduced government environmental research,and the muzzling of government scientists has limited objective research, with vested interests increasingly steering and funding research and the "research message". Fewer investigative journalists has "limited the voice" on the other side of many environmental research issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 08:49 AM

My point was that our government have already made the decision to permit fracking, the licences have been handed out to the frackers, fracking is inevitable, fracking will happen in the UK, and no amount of protestation will alter that one iota.

So I'm not wasting any more of my time protesting, I'll be better off playing my guitars and mandolin and hopefully improving my skills on those.

Oh, BTW Musket, my cooker's electric! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 08:57 AM

Won't be when you can get free unmetered gas direct from your kitchen sink..... Can't wait. Have you any idea how much bloody gas the aga takes?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:33 AM

"So I'm not wasting any more of my time protesting, I'll be better off playing my guitars and mandolin and hopefully improving my skills on those. "

And burying your head in the sand. Might as well, you don't appear to be using it!

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM

I think it is far from said and done. When the boss of a fracking company says he will pull out of the UK unless the law is changed something has seriously rattled his cage. OK, someone has said yes, and probably been paid for it, but the companies are now seeing that it is a political hot potato and there is every chance that the laws will not be changed. That is, in my opinion, what Francis Egan is shouting about. Watch for some red faces when they have to give the money back for reneging on promises :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:38 AM

I'm seeing my (Conservative) MP tomorrow; any suggestions for "to the point" questions to ask him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:58 AM

Try "Will you be voting for or against the rights of your constituents to own their own property and the land it is built on?"

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM

Well (pun kinda intended), the deal is that these frackers have lawyers, guns and money and they are not afraid to use em all because they want more money. They have used them all here in New Brunswick, Canada but the people still protect... we WILL win. We have something more powerful. Knowledge and purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM

How about asking the Tory MP:

1. Do you believe in man-made climate change?

2. Do you support fracking?

3 (a). If he answers 'no' to 1. and 'yes' to 2., ask him why you should believe him rather than 95% of the world's climate scientists and what qualifications does he hold in climate science? In addition, if the community he represents is harmed by fracking, will he be prepared to resign as that community's MP?

3 (b). If he answers 'yes' to 1. and 'yes' to 2. ask him why he's supporting the extraction and burning of yet more fossil fuels? In addition, if the community he represents is harmed by fracking, will he be prepared to resign as that community's MP?

3 (c). If he answers 'no' to 1. and 'no' to 2., ask him why you should believe him rather than 95% of the world's climate scientists and what qualifications does he hold in climate science? In addition, ask him if he's going to vote against fracking in the House?

3 (d). If he answers 'yes' to 1. and 'no' to 2. tell him that if he wasn't a Tory you might even consider voting for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:21 PM

"Gnu, I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject."

Not required. What is definitely required is for everyone to educate themselves. This is some serious shit and it affects millions of people from a local to a global scale. On the local level, all fauna and flora are affected or possibly affected, including sickness and death. Once the air and water are poisoned, ya can't fix it. The side effects, as if any need to be discussed, are 24/7/365 noise and light pollution, constant tanker truck traffic, pollution which includes many carcinogens all they way up to radioactive crap that will be a problem for thousands of years, and others.

The volume of (dis)information is staggering, indeed daunting, and, more so, damning, of this method which has only been used for a little over ten years. Horizontal hydraulic fracturing of rock strata for gas extraction is unadulterated evil for profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:33 PM

Oh... one more side effect... it takes a LOT of water and some people, even towns, are going dry because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:51 PM

The fracking companies in the UK aren't going to speak because there isn't any point. Just look at the microcosm here. The first few posts were conspiracy heaven - "it's all ben sorted out behind closed doors; bribes you know" - oh, sorry, I should have said greased palms, a much nicer description.

That's aside from the knee-jerk enviromentalist "It'll bring on Doomsday!" reaction. Don't get me wrong. I'm mostly green inclined & I've no opinion on fracking either way. I do know what people are like, though. Quick to label things, especially if said things will affect themselves. Slow to listen to anything that might force them to embarassingly have to change their mind. And very vocal on very little information...

Fracking in the US has no more influence on UK fracking than, for example, US employment law (which is far less generous to the employee than the employer) has on UK employment law (which is the opposite). So there is no reason to link US fracking practice to what might happen in the UK. Fracking might be a disaster in the UK, but it's more likely to be better regulated (note: I do not say "well regulated"; only "better").

What will be a disaster will be running out of energy or having to pay extortionate prices for it. Green energy, alas, remains comparitively expensive. Nuclear & fossil are castigated & reviled for a variety of reasons.

The fundamental question is do you want your freezer defrosting overnight, to be fumbling for your matches & candles in the evening & morning?

It's not a question people like asking. Even less do they want an answer. The reason the fracking companies don't answer is not because they're scared, but because they see no advantage in doing so. If everything they say will be buried in an avalanche of NIMBYism (which it will be), they might just as well wait for a better time to state their case. Though I do agree that saying you'll turn up & then failing to do so is shite!

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM

Consider the possibility that you may be seen as promoting your own form of "conspiracy" in your last post Raedwulf:)

I suspect one mans reality can be easily seen as anothers conspiracy, depending on your perspective and experience on any issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 08:14 PM

"The fundamental question is do you want your freezer defrosting overnight, to be fumbling for your matches & candles in the evening & morning?"

Perhaps the question should be, "Do you want to die from air and water pollution when there are far better solutions?"

Fuck this never ending circle of bullshit. The info is available on the internUt if you can be arsed to educate yourselves. Fracking kills. If it was just those uneducated that proffer silly arguments that would die from fracking, that would be fine with me on accounta they are part of the problem. That's it for me. I haven't the time for such tripe and lard. gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:28 PM

Conspiracies are not theories, they're crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM

You see, this is the problem.

There may well be more arguments against than for, but when weird beards and people in ethnic skirts join the politicos and space cadets in shouting conspiracy, most people turn off.

Something that politicians are having to think about these days is that people are far more sophisticated than they used to be. Donkeys with red rosettes just aren't enough to get the votes and philosophies out. Ditto Col Blimp standing for the Tories. it just isn't that simple any more.

Start politicising it and you may as well piss in the wind. And you know, that would be sad. As an ex miner who then went into vibration for a living till first retirement, I have a few technical questions myself before I am won over by the reassurances of the fracking companies. But like many others, I am not going to be swayed by "all Tories are disingenuous bastards."

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 01:57 PM

"Fuck this never ending circle of bullshit. The info is available on the internUt if you can be arsed to educate yourselves. Fracking kills. If it was just those uneducated that proffer silly arguments that would die from fracking, that would be fine with me on accounta they are part of the problem. That's it for me. I haven't the time for such tripe and lard."

And that's a pity, gnu. You're obviously very angry about this - but your anger is directed against the wrong targets and will achieve nothing. What's the point of 'shouting' at Musket - or me for that matter? Have you thought of using your anger and your, '2 months of research', constructively? For instance, have you thought of using those resources to protect your community? I don't know what you've done with your 2 months of research (feel free to enlighten me) but I would point out that it will be a wasted effort if you haven't (yet?) put it to good use; as the old cliche goes, "knowledge is power" - but power needs to be directed.

I have a friend who is incredibly bright and resourceful and the environmental 'bee-in-his-bonnet' is climate change. He certainly gets the message out there but he tends to alienate people by shouting at them. He's also a 'glass-half-full' sort of bloke (must control these cliches!)so any small victories are dismissed as trivial. He won't be happy until the whole city comes round to his way of thinking and drops everything in order to counter climate change - and even then he will dismiss half of the population as idiots who are doing it wrong.

I don't want to 'blow-my-own-trumpet' (Oh no! Not another one!)but the environmental 'bee-in-my-bonnet' (Nooooo!!!) is biodiversity loss. I decided to try and channel my anger at local losses and try to reverse them. And you know what? I seem to be succeeding! Much to my amazement people seem to be listening and real progress is being made. I'm more hopeful now than I've ever been. And through all of this, I have not shouted at a single person.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 02:58 PM

My observation is many people will not take the time to read "reams of research" without some strategic priming. If they are presented with a summary, and links to additional information, somes interest will be stimulated to click on the more detailed linked information. Yet, others will be satisfied with the summaries.

Like it or not, it seems to be the way things are heading for many, (possibly less so for baby boomers).

If a bloke want to reach them, and feels it is important enough, a challenge is to work with the route these folks get information. If not, I guess one can always fall back on fingering someone elses "lack of concern". Another alternative is always to conclude in early defeat ( aka, the "fuck 'em all, if they aren't interested in doing a bit if reading" approach).

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 06:34 PM

"Have you thought of using your anger and your, '2 months of research', constructively?" Yeah... read my page. My page is the only one that does not allow discussion or bullshit. You wanna know about fracking? Read. It's all there.

A summary, Ed? Read my pinned post at Frack quoted above. I ask ONE question. There is you summary. As far as summarizing what would take two months to read and is just the tip of the iceberg? Not my job. Ya want a summary? Fracking kills in the short term, and forever. Once you frack, you can't go back.

Now... my "anger"... my "2 months of research"? WTF is your problem? I said what I said and you twist my words like that? I have years into this and you trivialize that research? I SAID it would take YOU two months to read my compilation of research. Either you read what I said and do not twist what I said for your twisted pleasure or piss off. Is that angry enough for you ya stunnedasmearsefuck? Seriously... how can you write such fuckin twisted drivel and not expect people to view your posts as inane and simply that of a trolling twit? Apologize or piss off.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 07:09 PM

Note that I did not state that I wanted, nor needed, sumnary, gnu (I tend to read and enjoy research reports).. My comments were of a general nature, related to my observation on reaching many in the population, and not focusing on any one person on Mudcat, or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 02:13 AM

If it would take me, or anyone else, 2 months to read your research, gnu, then it's useless. Do you think your local politician, let alone an ordinary member of your community, is going to take a two month vacation just so they can read your findings? If the research has led you to believe that "fracking kills" then you have a duty to use that knowledge protect your community. But if you scream and shout at people they are not going to listen to you and all of that research will be a wasted effort.

By the way, you personally haven't persuaded me that "fracking kills" (although other stuff that I've read suggests a strong possibility that it's very dangerous). All you've done is persuaded me that you're someone who can't control and direct his anger and is probably to be avoided. So I think I'll "piss off".

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 05:09 AM

Reality is when polarised submissions by the likes of gnu are compared to the information out there that fracking is safe and a consensus is reached.

To say fracking kills is irresponsible nonsense. Eating cornflakes kills if you choke on them. When I worked down the pit, society accepted that the risk of subsidence was outweighed by the need for coal. The risks from deep mining are far higher than from fracking by incidence alone.

The question isn't whether fracking kills. The question is a balance of environmental risk, NIMBY and our reliance on fossil fuels long term and independence from other countries short term. If Norway got pissed off, you may as well use your gas oven to keep your bread fresh and away from your worktop.

If gnu took so long researching, how long till he presents a balanced view?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 11:15 AM

An interesting perspective on fracking. (I cut and paste, as it may be complex to access tgrough a link):

Ralph SURETTE: Fracking's magic-bullet moment fading fast - freelance journalist, Ralph Surette, Chronicle Herald, Nova Scotia, Canada, June 13, 2014

I was cruising the Internet a couple of weeks ago when this headline in the Los Angeles Times made my eyes pop: "U.S. officials cut estimate of recoverable Monterey shale oil by 96 per cent."

Ninety six per cent! Since the Monterey formation accounts for two-thirds of the supposed reserves available for fracking that would make the U.S. not only energy independent but a powerhouse exporter to the world, this was a big bubble bursting. Amazing that you haven't heard of it, but such is the tenacity of the world's built-in resistance to energy reality.

There have been other such downgrades from overblown claims, for both oil and gas, enough that that the Paris-based International Energy Agency, which in 2012 declared that the U.S. would overtake Saudi Arabia in oil production by 2020, has admitted that it, too, was fooled. Its prognosis now: the U.S. will import more from Saudi Arabia by 2020 as the fracking boom peaks and declines. So much for the mythical "100-year supply," thanks to fracking.

In Nova Scotia as elsewhere, as we face vital energy and related economic decisions at every turn, it's essential that we keep this big-picture stuff in mind.

For one thing, our own fracking debate has echoes of Monterey. A report of the review panel on fracking said 17 trillion to 69 trillion cubic feet of natural gas is available in the Kennetcook-

Windsor formation, while a retired government geologist calls this bunk and puts it at a dribble. In the ample history of exaggerated petroleum estimates — where a gold-rush mentality is needed to raise investment money — it's amazing how often independent geologists have turned out to be right in questioning the big numbers.

Meanwhile, a business consortium is looking for supply to justify building an $8.3-billion liquefied natural gas terminal in Guysborough County.

Don't count on that happening. As gas replaces oil and coal, North America could end up having little to export.

And the story doesn't end there. You'd think that if oil is in ever shortening supply, the price would rise even more, justifying more exploration. At least, that's what's endlessly preached by the industry-funded think tanks.

But several other things are happening. One is that with no more easy stuff to find, exploring and developing new reserves — tar sands, the deep ocean, fracking — are becoming hideously expensive, and oil companies are cutting back, including some recently in the tar sands.

This raises my own niggling question if we ever take to fracking in Nova Scotia: far from bringing us prosperity, we might end up subsidizing it, seeing that we have a notorious fondness for white elephants thinly disguised as soaring eagles.

Indeed, the amount of investment now needed to develop new oil and gas just to keep up with declining conventional reserves is, by some accounts, straining the world financial system. In other words, we can't afford it anymore.

Also happening is that alternatives, efficiencies and conservation are really taking off worldwide. This is especially so in the world's sun belt where solar electricity is now competitive without subsidy, and as grid improvements and storage techniques continue developing.

According to some analysts, increasingly the issue is no longer "environmentalists vs. business" but "business vs. business" as alternative energy businesses take on the tottering empires of coal and oil.

And both the United States and China are now clamping down on pollution, especially from coal, leaving reactionary oddballs Stephen Harper and his buddy, Tony Abbott of Australia, virtually alone to make the argument that pollution trumps everything because it pays, meanwhile laughably claiming that they're leaders in controlling greenhouse gases. As a piece in The Australian, Australia's national newspaper, proclaimed regarding Abbott's current visit to Canada: "Harper and Abbott: two fossils fooling no one."

California is a leader in alternate energy. The promise of endless riches from the Monterey shale was seductive, however, starting a tormented debate about whether that commitment would waver in favour of the easy life with abundant oil, pollution or not.

The message of the downgrade — the oil is there in the deep earth, but in jumbled rocks impossible to extract with today's technology — is that there's no easy fossil-fuel route out of the energy crunch, and even if there seems to be one, it's at the cost of ignoring climate degradation.

Something to take away here in Nova Scotia, if we get tempted by magical thinking, which we always are. The chastened IEA could only call for a renewed and urgent commitment to alternatives, efficiency and conservation. That is the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 11:46 AM

I suspect that Mr. Surette has valid points. My observation is that the same people who rant about fracking are the same people who rant about wind farms and tidal power. There seem to be people who just don't get the fact that supplies of fossil fuels are finite and that we need to put solar panels and wind farms everywhere. And, oh yes, we need to stop driving everywhere and allowing the building of subdivisions where you can't but a litre of milk.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:39 PM

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and interest.
So, we went to see our MP on Friday and he did seem genuinely concerned by what we had to say, particularly when we pointed out that his own house was more likely to be fracked under than ours.
We took along a copy of the local geological map and being a man of some intelligence he was able to follow our arguments about the complicated sequence of faulting in the rocks beneath our area and how this created a multitude of possible leakage lines for fracking pollutants and gas losses. We had previously sent him some information about our concerns and he appeared to have taken at least some of it in.
He was not going to make a commitment to anything until the wording of the bill to change the trespass law is finalised but he said that this is the first issue in which he feels that he must put the needs of his constituency above the Conservative party line.
We left him with a letter to reply to once he has had time to look at other information that we gave him.
He did seem shocked that the fracking companies are not turning up when they have said that they would and suggested looking at ways to arrange meetings with selected representatives of concerned groups so that they cannot back out on the grounds of having to deal with "extremists". He may be right in guessing that this is the reason for their non-appearance.
When we get a reply to our letter I will post the answers here, I hope that enjoys the research that he will need to do.
He is going to consult with other Lancashire MPs so if you live in Lancashire go and meet with your MP.
In fact wherever you live go and see your MP, Congressman, or whatever representative you have and also the candidates for the realistic opposition parties.
Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:49 PM

I forgot to mention that we had an observer in with us (to which we gave consent) from the BBC, looking at the possibility of making some sort of documentary about MPs surgeries. It won't feature us as it's at an early stage of planning but could make an interesting program.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:13 AM

They don't speak because there is no need. They control the governments..

Our Ancient Laws of Trespass are about to be changed if Cameron gets his way..and this was mentioned in the Queen's Speech last week. If your house is in their way, they will simply frack beneath it, not tell you, and you will have no legal rights to stop them. Your house price will plummet, you will get all sorts of terrible chemicals floating up through your ground and the rest....is history...

Google 'The List Of The Harmed' to see what has happened to many people in Pennsylvania.

Fracking kills. It has already killed many fish and animals and is making many humans very, very sick.

It poisons our Water Aquifers around the world and we have no idea how long these will take to recover, if they EVER will....

Then, there are the earthquakes of course...one already having happened the first time they fracked, just outside Blackpool...

If you need to know more, then go to Vanessa Vine's Facebook page...also the 'BIFF! Britain & Ireland Frack Free' FB page and the 'Fracking Hell' FB page too, to be kept right up to date on what is happening in the UK.

Vanessa is doing amazing things raising awareness...and the beautiful Mohawk Warrior Unity Flag she flies at many of the anti-fracking protests, was sent to me via John, (part Mohawk), from Pennsylvania who is a part of the Idle No More movement, which again, can be googled.

That flag, which is flown at many Idle No More protests in Canada and the USA is now Vanessa's, as I gave it to her on the understanding she took it out there and spread the story of Idle No More and the huge part THEY are playing in standing up against Fracking in every way they can.

It is the fracking industry, Cuadrilla's CEO, Frances Egan, who has demanded that either the fracking laws are made easier in this country, (thus, the Trespass Laws are being changed), or, he will pull out.

Lord Browne, who is advising this government on fracking and our energy policy, owns 30% of Cuadrilla...

George Osborne's father-in-law is in the fracking industry and is the man who suggested they frack in 'the wasteland of the North'

Join the dots....it all leads back to The Fracking Mafia who are ultra powerful and truly pissed off with Vanessa and all her Anti-Fracking friends who are causing chaos by walking, slowly, in front of every fracking lorry they can find...Their protests at Balcombe, last Summer, and Barton Moss in Salford, earlier this year, were amazing...Almost every arrest made by the Corporate Police Officers was thrown out of court...

The Fracksters are TRULY pissed off with what's going on..and Greenpeace 'fracked' Cameron's country cottage during the day of the Queen's speech, in a bloody wonderful action which raised a lot of awareness....

The only ones who can stop fracking in this country are The People themselves, so please, JOIN THEM and do NOT be Derelict In YOUR Duty any longer, towards the legacy of your Children's Future, or in being a Caretaker for Mother Earth...

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:20 AM

Vanessa Vine - Facebook page

Please check out the 'photos' page in here, brilliant photolinks to share out!

BIFF! Britain & Ireland Frack Free - Facebook page

Fracking Hell - Facebook page


EVERYTHING you need to know about Fracking and the Mafiosa behind it. Ian used to be in the Oil Industry so he knows what he's talking about. 3 hours long, but worth every minute. Ian now attends as many Anti-Fracking Protests as he can in the UK, making many videos of the shocking police brutality against peaceful, legal demonstrators.
FRACKtured Future - Youtube video by Ian R Crane

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:48 AM

Who rattled her cage?

This thread had the potential, Gnu's hissy fit apart, of being a serious consideration of the topic. Then Lizzie woke up with wild accusations that have no bearing on the pros and cons of exploring this energy source.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:03 AM

Please, do NOt patronize me. I have come to know a GREAT deal about Fracking from people who know far more about it than you do, Musket, who live with it every single day too...

Already they have dumped untreated radio-active fracking waste in the Manchester Shipping Canal...I believe I forgot to mention that little gem, earlier..They also spray it across roads, of course, and the roads crack apart from the weight of their lorries...

But hey, let's let Cameron continue to bribe the Councils of England with £MILLIONS being given to them if they agree to fracking in their area..

Odd that he's found the money...in this 'Age Of Austerity'
Oh, hang on a mo, no doubt his Fracking Buddies put it forward for him...

IF you have a problem with me, send me a PM and keep your personal dislike of me off the thread. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:20 AM

I don't dislike you. I don't have any view of you. Your posts on the other hand don't sit well in intelligent debate.

I just want to discuss the pros and cons of fracking as per the op, and your diatribe brings nothing material to the conversation. The op has concerns, brought up with his MP and we are lacking the view of the contractors. I am interested as to why.

It's important that this potential source of energy is debated objectively because if we use it and regret it, or not use it when it us safe to use, we are bloody fools either way, and silly "us & them" distractions are irrelevant. This is too important to be treated as a political soap opera.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:28 AM

So, Lizzie, "fracking kills" does it. At the outset, I should say that, if I was a disinterested observer, I would be no more convinced by your hysterically verbose tirade than I was by gnu's (unsummarised) research (that would take 2 months to read)and his scornful insults.

But let's say that you're right and you've uncovered a dastardly plot to poison the world. I assume that you've organised some sort of campaign against it, have you? And if so, how much progress have you made so far and can you let us know what works and what doesn't work? You still seem to be employing the hysterically verbose tirade - so, perhaps, in spite of my misgivings, you find that that tactic does work, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:36 AM

I have come to know a GREAT deal about Fracking

Ah, but then, Liz, you know everything about everything. Why don't you go back to clicking multiple "Likes" on FarceBook which will doubtless save the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:05 PM

" would be no more convinced by your hysterically verbose tirade than I was by gnu's (unsummarised) research (that would take 2 months to read)..."

There ya go. Haven't got the time to edify yourself so ya don't bother. Yeah, hissy fit indeed. That's the reason for the hissy fit and the scornful remarks. Apparently, even these do not work.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:08 PM

You still don't get it, do you, gnu? You see, what I object to is that you're both indulging in a: "I'm much, much, much more concerned than you are!!" competition. Lizzie is indulging in one of her usual verbose tirades, in which she seeks to demonstrate that she's very, very, VERY much more concerned than anyone else whilst you're determined to show that you've got much, much, much bigger 'research cojones' than anyone else. But I contend that if you're both as concerned as you say you are, you would both be coming up with effective strategies to oppose fracking - and you would be sharing those strategies with other concerned people.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:43 PM

Factors to consider:
-Who to trust. We see criminal trials where science testimony experts emerge, whose creditionals seem impecible, but tgey paint completely different stories. Taken this intk consideration, why should one put viewpoints, or so-called research opinion from an "expert" (with a vested interest) from either side of an issue on a higher platform? I normally seek information from neutral sources, unattached from either side of an issue-though this is becoming harder to find.

-Protests, alone, (in different firmats) do a good job of drawing attention to an issue-but, little to convert those not already converted. In fact, some protests may have the opposite impact than intended, turning people off on an isdue.

-What is the alternative? People are attached to their incomes and lifestyles, change normallt is resisted, without reasonable alternatives. Some alternatives may be more harmful, economic and environmentally, than those being protested. What seems to be the lack of concern for the environments/economies in other locals may also be a turn off. Some protesters drive to protests in un-needed gas guzzling trucks/SUVs, with little concern for environments where the fuel they "guzzle" comes from.

-Unproven fear tactics are a turn off. It takes no time to spot these scar tactics being used to support a cause. Often, these are "sketchy", and not based on the entire truth, and not supported by valid research and reported in mainstream media.

-Conspiracies. No need to say much more on this one. Quite often, this involves linking the dots between unrelated situations to prove a point. Many people have a gut feeling that something is "amiss" , but fail to spot the lapse in logical reasoning.



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Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 03:09 AM

I think that in the UK we are dealing with a population that has little knowledge of fracking and therefore most people have no opinion as yet. When speaking to friends and acquaintances I find that most of them know very little about it or have not heard of it. In view of the strength of feeling of those opposed to it there seems to be sparse attention paid by the media.