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BS: lets develop Scotland

Big Al Whittle 17 Jun 14 - 09:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jun 14 - 09:42 AM
Musket 17 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Eric Reasonable 17 Jun 14 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Eric Reasonable 17 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jun 14 - 12:09 PM
Jack Campin 17 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jun 14 - 02:36 PM
Musket 17 Jun 14 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 17 Jun 14 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Eric Reasonable 17 Jun 14 - 07:27 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 14 - 07:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jun 14 - 10:57 PM
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akenaton 18 Jun 14 - 02:59 AM
Musket 18 Jun 14 - 03:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Jun 14 - 05:01 AM
Musket 18 Jun 14 - 05:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Jun 14 - 07:48 AM
akenaton 18 Jun 14 - 08:41 AM
Musket 18 Jun 14 - 08:42 AM
Ed T 18 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM
GUEST 18 Jun 14 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 18 Jun 14 - 04:22 PM
Rapparee 18 Jun 14 - 09:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 14 - 08:16 AM
Musket 19 Jun 14 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,Jock Strapped 19 Jun 14 - 09:45 AM
akenaton 19 Jun 14 - 10:19 AM
Musket 19 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM
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akenaton 19 Jun 14 - 05:50 PM
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akenaton 19 Jun 14 - 06:04 PM
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GUEST,Troubadour 19 Jun 14 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 19 Jun 14 - 06:30 PM
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GUEST,Allan Conn 19 Jun 14 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,Musket 20 Jun 14 - 01:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 14 - 02:40 AM
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Musket 20 Jun 14 - 07:34 AM
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akenaton 20 Jun 14 - 08:13 AM
Musket 20 Jun 14 - 08:23 AM
akenaton 20 Jun 14 - 08:30 AM
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Musket 20 Jun 14 - 11:18 AM
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akenaton 20 Jun 14 - 02:31 PM
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Donuel 20 Jun 14 - 03:12 PM
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Kenny B (inactive) 22 Jun 14 - 02:18 PM
Jim McLean 22 Jun 14 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Sol 22 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jun 14 - 05:33 PM
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akenaton 22 Jun 14 - 06:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM
akenaton 22 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Musket 23 Jun 14 - 03:05 AM
akenaton 23 Jun 14 - 03:15 AM
Jim McLean 23 Jun 14 - 03:50 AM
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Musket 23 Jun 14 - 05:59 AM
GUEST 23 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM
LadyJean 23 Jun 14 - 10:01 PM
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Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 14 - 03:55 AM
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akenaton 24 Jun 14 - 12:58 PM
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kendall 24 Jun 14 - 01:41 PM
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Eric the Viking 24 Jun 14 - 04:17 PM
Dave Wynn 24 Jun 14 - 06:37 PM
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Teribus 25 Jun 14 - 02:00 AM
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Dave the Gnome 25 Jun 14 - 05:42 AM
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akenaton 25 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM
GUEST 25 Jun 14 - 10:02 AM
akenaton 25 Jun 14 - 10:02 AM
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akenaton 25 Jun 14 - 10:45 AM
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GUEST,Musket 25 Jun 14 - 11:01 AM
akenaton 25 Jun 14 - 11:04 AM
akenaton 25 Jun 14 - 11:11 AM
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akenaton 25 Jun 14 - 11:49 AM
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GUEST,Seaham Cemetry 26 Jun 14 - 06:17 AM
Teribus 26 Jun 14 - 08:18 AM
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akenaton 26 Jun 14 - 09:04 AM
akenaton 26 Jun 14 - 09:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 14 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Seaham Cemetry 26 Jun 14 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,Seaham cemetry 26 Jun 14 - 09:45 AM
akenaton 26 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM
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Musket 26 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM
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GUEST,Musket 27 Jun 14 - 01:37 AM
GUEST,Eliza 27 Jun 14 - 03:33 AM
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akenaton 27 Jun 14 - 05:13 AM
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Teribus 27 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM
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GUEST,Sol 27 Jun 14 - 01:10 PM
Gutcher 27 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM
Musket 27 Jun 14 - 01:55 PM
akenaton 27 Jun 14 - 03:10 PM
Musket 27 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM
Dave Wynn 27 Jun 14 - 05:01 PM
GUEST 27 Jun 14 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Musket 28 Jun 14 - 03:00 AM
akenaton 28 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM
Musket 28 Jun 14 - 08:45 AM
akenaton 28 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM
Musket 28 Jun 14 - 12:19 PM
Dave Wynn 29 Jun 14 - 05:45 AM
akenaton 29 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM
Musket 29 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM
akenaton 29 Jun 14 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Montgomery 29 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM
akenaton 29 Jun 14 - 11:10 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jun 14 - 11:16 AM
Musket 29 Jun 14 - 12:54 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM
Musket 29 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Musket 30 Jun 14 - 01:32 AM
Teribus 30 Jun 14 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Sol 30 Jun 14 - 07:40 PM
Teribus 01 Jul 14 - 02:53 AM
gnu 01 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM
GUEST 01 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jul 14 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Triplane 01 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM
Jim McLean 02 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM
Musket 02 Jul 14 - 05:19 AM
Jim McLean 02 Jul 14 - 07:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Musket 02 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,kendall 02 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM
GUEST 02 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM
Jim McLean 02 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM
Musket 02 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM
Musket 02 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM
Jim McLean 02 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Triplane 02 Jul 14 - 04:22 PM
Jim McLean 03 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 09:08 AM
GUEST 05 Jul 14 - 04:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jul 14 - 03:58 AM
Jim McLean 06 Jul 14 - 02:45 PM
Gutcher 06 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Jul 14 - 05:47 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Jul 14 - 05:53 PM
Musket 06 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Musket 07 Jul 14 - 02:04 AM
Jim McLean 07 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM
Musket 07 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM
Gutcher 07 Jul 14 - 05:34 AM
Jim McLean 07 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM
Musket 07 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM
Teribus 07 Jul 14 - 06:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM
Musket 07 Jul 14 - 12:08 PM
Musket 07 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM
Jim McLean 07 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM
Musket 07 Jul 14 - 03:43 PM
Jim McLean 07 Jul 14 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,big al whittle 07 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 08 Jul 14 - 03:07 AM
Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 03:55 AM
Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 04:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Musket 08 Jul 14 - 06:28 AM
Stu 08 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM
Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM
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Musket 08 Jul 14 - 07:53 AM
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Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM
Musket 08 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM
Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM
Musket 08 Jul 14 - 09:33 AM
Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 09:35 AM
Musket 08 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM
Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 10:42 AM
Musket 08 Jul 14 - 12:44 PM
Jim McLean 08 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,Musket 09 Jul 14 - 02:52 AM
akenaton 09 Jul 14 - 03:08 AM
Musket 09 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM
akenaton 09 Jul 14 - 03:42 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM
akenaton 09 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM
akenaton 10 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM
Musket 10 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM
akenaton 10 Jul 14 - 05:27 PM
akenaton 10 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM
akenaton 11 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM
Musket 11 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM
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Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 14 - 01:03 PM
akenaton 11 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM
akenaton 11 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 14 - 02:01 PM
Musket 11 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM
akenaton 11 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM
akenaton 11 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM
Musket 11 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM
Musket 11 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM
robomatic 11 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM
akenaton 12 Jul 14 - 03:56 AM
Musket 12 Jul 14 - 06:19 AM
Musket 12 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM
Musket 12 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM
Stu 12 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM
akenaton 12 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM
akenaton 12 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jul 14 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Triplane 12 Jul 14 - 06:59 PM
Musket 13 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM
akenaton 13 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM
akenaton 13 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM
Gutcher 13 Jul 14 - 05:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM
Musket 13 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM
Stu 13 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM
Musket 13 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM
Musket 13 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM
akenaton 13 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM
Musket 13 Jul 14 - 06:22 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Guest 14 Jul 14 - 06:24 PM
akenaton 14 Jul 14 - 06:56 PM
akenaton 14 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM
GUEST,Guest 15 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM
Musket 15 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Guest 15 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM
Teribus 15 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM
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akenaton 15 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM
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Teribus 16 Jul 14 - 02:12 AM
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Teribus 16 Jul 14 - 02:36 AM
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akenaton 17 Jul 14 - 02:41 AM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM
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Teribus 17 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jul 14 - 10:34 PM
Teribus 18 Jul 14 - 01:15 AM
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akenaton 18 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM
akenaton 18 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 04:49 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM
Stu 18 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM
Stu 18 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM
Stu 18 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 18 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jul 14 - 04:59 PM
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Big Al Whittle 18 Jul 14 - 08:40 PM
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Musket 19 Jul 14 - 10:24 AM
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Musket 19 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM
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Musket 19 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM
akenaton 19 Jul 14 - 08:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 20 Jul 14 - 03:13 AM
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bubblyrat 20 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM
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akenaton 20 Jul 14 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 20 Jul 14 - 12:38 PM
Musket 20 Jul 14 - 01:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM
Musket 21 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM
Musket 21 Jul 14 - 08:47 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM
Musket 21 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 21 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM
Musket 21 Jul 14 - 05:06 PM
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GUEST,big al whittle 22 Jul 14 - 01:25 AM
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Musket 22 Jul 14 - 03:59 AM
Stu 22 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,big al whittle 22 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM
Musket 22 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
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akenaton 22 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM
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Musket 22 Jul 14 - 05:11 PM
akenaton 23 Jul 14 - 03:19 AM
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Subject: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:41 AM

if we built a Ramada hotel next to every loch. there would be jobs for everybody. no more shitty old bed and breakfasts - cheap holidays in the Costa del Whisky.


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Subject: RE: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:42 AM

sorry should be in the bs section.


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Subject: RE: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:47 AM

The only lake in Scotland already has a decent hotel on its shores.


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Subject: RE: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Eric Reasonable
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:53 AM

How about sawing Scotland off at Hadrian's Wall, towing it south,
and reattaching to the useless empty gap betwen Wales And Ireland ?

Sorted, one long motorway would get you from Kent right across to Dingle.

Excellent Drinking Man's summer roadtrip !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Eric Reasonable
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM

come to think of it..

"On a pub crawl from Dover to Dingle" aint to shoddy an idea for a song title.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 12:09 PM

we must be talking about a different place. loch linhe, loch ness, loch Lomond - and unless its the same one that pops up between every mountain for about three hundred miles.....

anyway...you know what I mean the bleeding place is virtually empty and in England, we're tripping over each other. I think it would be an attraction, proper hotel rooms where you can have a shower and a shit and a kip. not some room the size of an upright piano - don't pretend you've never encountered it.

one place they offered us a three quarter sized bed for a couple of podgies like me and the wife. and it was top price - more than you would have paid at a hilton.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM

Geologically, a large part of Islay (the bit where the best whisky comes from) is part of Venezuela.

Maybe they'd like to tow it back and we could throw in the rest of Scotland with it? We'd get tropical weather, El Sistema and 4000 miles between us and Nigel Farage.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:36 PM

For a long time, I have held that Canada should link politically with Caribbean nations. Vacations in "the warm" might be cheaper.

To tow it down there would be difficult, because of the size.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:33 PM

I always said I wouldn't mind being two bob behind Al. I have no hotel issues in Scotland. The hydro ones aren't too bad. Gleneagles has a decent restaurant. When I am in Aviemore, toss a coin between the Hilton and McDonald.

Can't see what the problem is....

(We rent cottages normally to be honest and spent two weeks on holiday only last month . Had to use cottages as we had the mutt with us.)

Q. Don't you dare move Canada. We ski at least every other year in your fair country. Not 100% certain what other attraction it would have for us?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:35 PM

If you were sawing off at Hadrian's Wall then you'd be ceding a large chunk of England to Scotland. Don't think the good folk of Northumberland would be happy with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Eric Reasonable
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:27 PM

Northumberland ? dozy buggers, they should have spoke up a bit louder before the Romans started builing the bloody wall.

Ok, fair enough, shove the wall a bit further up north, then start sawing...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:59 PM

Isn't there a problem with lots of it being owned by rich bastards already?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 10:57 PM

yeh same thing applies with England, Richard. the musket family move into an area, fifteen of them in a bedroom. pissing out the window and driving all the prices down. then before you know it, they own everything. designer skis for their dog.

I tell you another thing. they have no respect for our culture. they get married and they all groom their wives into having sex.

next thing its tea with Tony Blair, hobnobbing with Queen, telling Ake he's got to get married to a bloke.

you got to watch 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 01:24 AM

Not true.

No bloke would have him.

Anyway, I blame school teachers in Nottinghamshire. They used to teach you to aspire to flicking Vs at the peasants, getting out of the pit at the earliest opportunity and getting out of the bath for a jimmy.

Hobnobs never took off here in dirty rotten stinking capitalist land. We prefer the raj inspired predilection for tiffin don't 'cha know?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 02:59 AM

We already have far too many like Richard and Ian here Al and they don't "integrate", they mostly try to dominate.
Usually they have left the south of England, sold their bungalow for a million and bought a nice house on the West Coast for £250,000, leaving them plenty to pay the peasants and buy themselves into the Community Council :0)

The Irony is that these new "Scots" will vote no to independence...to a man. Take all the benefits fought for and won by the Scottish Government....free care for the elderly, free prescriptions, no tuition fees for their children if they have any, yet they are the sector which could defeat the Independence vote.

Never mind, if we win, "We'll sned therr heids lik taps o' thristle" :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 03:21 AM

Doing the thick indigenous peasants a favour then...

zzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 05:01 AM

laugh on the other side of your face when they turn at your designer crofters cottage (gold taps in the dogs Jacuzzi) and say your heid hasn't been snedded, you're in trouble mate!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 05:16 AM

Oh, I don't know Al. History tells us that when they get a bit too uppity, we tend to get the cane out of the cupboard and give them a jolly good thrashing, what?

Can you imagine integrating with Akenaton? It's back to your earlier point I suppose.

As we are looking at suggestions for what to do with Scotland, we could pave it and turn it into a car park for people visiting The Lake District.




How do you know the dog's jacuzzi has gold taps? I'm going to have to have a word with him about who he invites in. I know he has had the Labrador from next door in, and he fancies the poodle he sees when we walk into the village, but I wasn't aware anyone else had sneaked into his bachelor pad?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 07:48 AM

as rabbi burns said

Och! Wa'll snedd his heid
And auld musket wallaby deid!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 08:41 AM

Don't think sneddin' 'es heid wid mak much difference tae the bugger Al!!

He seems tae be deid fae the neck up onnyweys.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 08:42 AM

There are no wallabies in Scotland, zoos apart.

Plenty running wild in Derbyshire though.

Och aye, the 'noo! Or some such bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

"Originally estimated to cost $676 million, the 2014 Commonwealth Games are now expected to cost Scotland's largest city more than $1 billion.

That $1-billion figure was the revised estimate of the cost of the games after detailed work on the budget was completed by the organizing committee, known as Glasgow 2014. It was established in 2009. "

A poor start.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 09:44 AM

$1 billion !!!???

.. how may fried mars bars or bottles of Buckie would that get you ???


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 04:22 PM

Baton came through Kelso this afternoon. Scorching day! Megan Kilpatrick a school pupil who sometimes sings at our club was one of the torch bearers. Here's she is singng Wild Mountainside



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9eWvvOrbgM


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 09:40 PM

I think it should be left as a third world country. Drives up property values in Cornwall.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:16 AM

My mate Dave worked hard all his life. Started down Agecroft colliery at 15. By self improvement and hard work retired as a network engineer of very high standing with a decent pension. Paid for out of his own pocket by careful management and going short when younger. For nearly 30 years he holidayed in the south west of Scotland, initially because it was all he could afford and later because he grew to love the place. He has put more into the economy of Dumfries and Galloway that he will ever take out and, quite likely, more than many people who were born there ever will. He upped sticks from his ex-council house in Manchester and by putting in most of his pension lump sum and some other savings managed to buy a lovely bungalow overlooking Wigtown Bay which I am pleased to say I visit as often as practicable.

This is the type of person that ake is happy to lump in with the 'new Scots' who take all the benefits while pocketing loads of cash for selling their million pound properties. No surprise really. I have often said before and I am sure I will say it again that stereotyping is a terrible thing to do. Ake does seem to be the master of it.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:56 AM

Didn't know they were classed as masters. Masturbators maybe.

I too have properties in Scotland and although renting them out, (holiday lets in some areas, students digs on Edinburgh,) my plan is to retire up there when Mrs Musket has had enough too. She was at medical school in Edinburgh, and we have many friends there.

Akenaton is as typical a Scot as Dick van Dyke is a cockney.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Jock Strapped
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 09:45 AM

"I too have properties in Scotland"

Och.. no wonder so many mudcatters can afford to splash out thousands on luthier guitars !!!

While so many of the rest of us have to make do with cheap 2nd hand mass produced Chinese boxes from Cash Converters...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 10:19 AM

I see them all, they swarm over Loch Fyne and the West Coast.
I even work for some of them....when I'm pushed.

There IS a stereotype Dave. Easily recognised by all the guys in the trade....hypocrites to a man. They use Scotland, then vote for the Union.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM

Isn't this where I point out that your poverty offends me Jock Strapped? Or some such expected champagne comment playing to the crowd?

Akenaton knows how to survive though, I notice. Although any decent tradesman would treat all customers equally and with respect. But there again, equality was never his strong point.

All true and free thinking Scottish people will vote for union. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and until and unless Salmond says how money, defence and EU trade will take place, ie., what will happen rather than what should happen, there is no reason whatsoever for people to take a risk. Not liking the Prime Minister of today is about as good as it gets and going back isn't in the gift of the scots. Meanwhile, BP have now put in planning permission on that land they bought on the Northumbrian Coast.

Voting for a successful Scotland isn't hypocrisy, it's common sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM

There IS a stereotype Dave.

No there isn't. If you accept that then you must accept that all Irish are thick, all Jews are tight fisted and all blacks are lazy. Stereotyping is a lame excuse for believing that a whole section of society is worse than you. There is no such thing as a typical Englishman, Scotsman or even homosexual. Every person is different and deserves to be judged on their own merits rather than dismissed because they do not belong to the right group.

So, would you sned Dave's heids lik taps o' thristle simply because he is English and owns a house in Scotland?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 04:09 PM

My sister went to Scotland at eighteen, to St Andrew's Uni. She studied Medicine and has been a doctor in Dundee ever since. She works in a large hospital and is permanently exhausted, but loves her job and gives her all to it. She was widowed at an early age and left with two young babies (both born in Perthshire). These two girls are now in their twenties and have very good jobs. All three obviously pay taxes and are contributing to Scotland in many ways. My sister is a member of her local church and is involved in village life. She will soon be retiring, and wishes only to end her days in her small Scottish village and be buried in the tiny graveyard alongside her late husband. She has occasionally been put down for being English, although it's now over forty years since she arrived up there. Our father was a Scot. There are quite a few 'foreign' doctors in the large Dundee hospital, all doing great things and working their socks off. It would be a real shame if their contributions were disregarded and Independence meant an uncomfortable existence on the receiving end of racist-type attitudes for her and other English-born residents.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 04:58 PM

Sorry, Eliza. they are "....hypocrites to a man. They use Scotland, then vote for the Union. "

Even if she is a woman! All the English in Scotland have sold their £1,000,000 mansions and are now living off the backs of the decent upstanding Scots.

There IS a stereotype

Says ake...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 05:19 PM

Typical lowlife scum. I don't know why you sound so surprised about him Dave. I know you tend to give most people the benefit of the doubt whilst I dismiss them too easily but this specimen doesn't exactly hide his ugly side.

He isn't representative of anything really except the reason why the tabloids are still in business. Base attitudes and lack of humility. Par for the course for bigots.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 05:25 PM

I'm not really surprised, Musket. Just eternally optimistic. I am often disappointed but it tends to make life a lot more joyous :-)

Cheers

dtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 05:50 PM

Er....are you missing something?.....I actually live here :0)
I see what is going on, shower of hypocrites.
No houses for local young folks...priced out of the market by people from the South of England.


What's the attraction then? Our history? Our culture? Our Nation?......Or is it our free health care? free prescriptions? "cheap" housing(for you)? No tuition fees?

Pity about the peasants?....isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:00 PM

I work in a small town near Loch Fyne, where over 35% of the houses are holiday homes.

The young locals can't compete with the English money, they just cant get a mortgage for the amounts required.
Most leave for the cities or stay with their parents while good houses lie empty for all but a couple of months in the year.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:04 PM

Of course this doesn't apply to ALL English...some come here to work and earn their keep.
The stereotype is the well off retired, wonder why they don't stay in the South.....too many immigrants?    :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:18 PM

For a long time, I have held that Canada should link politically with Caribbean nations. Vacations in "the warm" might be cheaper.

Cuba as the 11 province would be perfect. Wouldn't have to change the health care system and French would become the third language.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:19 PM

"Never mind, if we win, "We'll sned therr heids lik taps o' thristle" :0)"

Two of the major benefits of Scottish independence are

1). That we would never again have to admit that Ake was one of "ours"

and

2). That we would feel some sympathy for that eejit Salmond, knowing that he would not benefit from 1).


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:30 PM

Ake everyone in Scotland has a vote and everyone's opinion is relevant. An English incomer has as much right to vote No as a home grown Scot has. We could equally take a swipe at women saying they are happy to use free prescriptions yet vote No. You simply can't break things down like that. All people want the best for the country they just disagree on how best to achieve that! Besides seemingly about a third of of English incomers support independence anyway - so it isn't really correct to depict them all as unionists. For Scottish votes to make the difference in a UK general election the election itself needs to be really close - likewise for the English vote to make a difference in the referendum the vote itself would need to be very close anyway!!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 06:55 PM

we just booked into an apartment in glasgow for the independence day vote and party. can we get registered to vote (vote Aye!) as we will be living there on the day? though we stay in cumbria we have many connections and 3 scots children living there. of course the scots should go for it and it would be an example to those of us in the north and elsewhere that austerity/global capitalism/ tories do not have to rule forever and hopefully encourage us to demand somethig better for ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:04 PM

To qualify for a vote someone would need to be resident in Scotland by 2nd Sep at the latest and of course get themselves registered.

There's no saying what it'll be like after the vote. If it is a Yes then I think there will be massive parties and celebrations. If it is No then I think it will be a stranger atmosphere. The No campaigners will be more relieved than anything else and the Yes people will be totally dejected. Can't imagine many street parties etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 01:27 AM

If you are voting on the basis of free prescriptions and tuition fees, you'll be voting to remain being subsidised from Westminster then.

I guarantee these would be the first victims of independence austerity if an independent Scotland wishes to keep its credit rating with IMF. Regardless of whose currency controls it is bound to with no say in the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:40 AM

Of course this doesn't apply to ALL English...some come here to work and earn their keep.
The stereotype is the well off retired


So, anyone who has not come there to work, even if they moved there because they love it and have put plenty into the local economy, would be kicked out by you then ake? Including my mate who is retired and comfortably off because he worked hard all his life and put as much into the Scottish coffers as anyone working in Scotland? You really take the biscuit.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 03:07 AM

In the "new" Scotland, to make a difference we all need to pull our weight....no room for passengers, no matter how many "properties" they have.

The problem of housing for our young people is on of the first things we need to sort out. Private rents are disgustingly high, and large houses empty for most of the year is an absolute disgrace.
Allan... My son works for "Yes Scotland" and tells me the vote WILL be very close. He also tells me that most of the many English retired in Argyll will definitely vote "NO"....he has knocked on hundreds of doors and works in community care.
Even the Asians and Chinese who own the local fast food shops will be voting "YES"... :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 03:56 AM

Even.... Even who? The people who live in Scotland every bit as much as you do and have the same rights as you?

Pathetic.

President Alexander I of Salmon farm. Can't wait...

Have you noticed how he is trying to attract the pink vote? Something for you to ponder on.

Don't forget, if it does lead to a yes majority, The UK will respect it as per the agreement. To come running back later means the rest of us will decide whether or not to have you. To date, the yes campaign seems to be poking fun at politicians on the no camp and claiming Westminster and Brussels will do the exact opposite of what they have said they will do.

Currency union with The UK requires the will of The UK. Currency union with The EU means being a member of The EU. (This is The EU by the way whose alcohol ideas in their public health proposals are not exactly music to the ears of those employed in making and exporting whisky.)

In reality, there are good reasons to vote either way. Throwing scorn on the no voters shows the narrow nationalistic obscenity that rises to the surface from time to time. Not exactly shocked by who the cheer leader is.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:12 AM

In the "new" Scotland, to make a difference we all need to pull our weight....no room for passengers, no matter how many "properties" they have.

How many times do I have to say it. My mate has ONE property. The one he lives in. He is turned 65 and after working all his life, paying taxes and saving for his retirement he now enjoys his life in the place he spent a lot of time and money in. Is he a passenger? Does he need to pull his weight?

Luckily, no-one has to justify themselves to you and, from experience, I know most of the Scots in the area consider him to be a friend and stalwart of the community. It is also fortunate that no-one on here is stereotyping Scotsmen based on your views...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:59 AM

Do passengers include the nine out of ten households in Scotland who receive more in benefits than they pay in tax?

Just wondering...

If being a landlord is an issue, you might want to have a quiet word with Dundee Council.

That nine out of ten is a bit of a generalisation and caused a bit of an uproar when the Scottish conservative leader claimed it. The reality isn't sparkling all the same...

Akenaton's contributors

If it isn't fair to moan about people who rely on the state, (and it most certainly isn't) neither is it nice to moan about anybody else.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 06:37 AM

I can remember stating on this forum that the referendum on Scottish Independence would be mid to late term of the next Parliament ~2015 (IIRC that was in 2007). I was then pulled up on that and was told that the referendum would take place within the term of the sitting Parliament no later than 2010.

That being the case you would have thought that had the SNP been serious about the independence issue they would have had all the answers worked out in detail to all the questions on the issues that are of prime importance to the people of Scotland and the electorate of Scotland by the summer of 2009 at the latest.

I therefore find it astonishing with less than 90 days to go the YES campaign and the SNP in particular cannot give definite statements on any of the main issues - they simply do not have a clue, they rely on groundless assertions and baseless assumptions.

Something like 80% of Scotland's trade is with England and the rest of the United Kingdom - If the vote is YES there will be a massive flight of capital and jobs out of Scotland, and the newly independent Scotland NOT being an EU member state will be at a distinct disadvantage trading with it's largest customer.

The vote I think will be NO, but this idiotic divisive waste of time, resources and money, will leave the nation scarred.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 07:34 AM

I need a drink. Teribus can occasionally speak sense after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:02 AM

Ake I know many English people living in Scotland and yes some (like my wife) are definite No whilst others are definite Yes. The point is though that they make their decision as they wish. It is a free democratic choice. And undoubtedly it doesn't all come down to finance etc. It could be argued that some Scots are drawn to the Yes camp for the emotional pull it has - just as some English born people may be emotionally pulled towards the union. However it does no good to break the figures down too much and almost start laying the blame. Besides we all know from the polls who the Yes camp have to persuade and it is Scottish women whatever their origins. Some polls have shown a male majority for independence but the female vote (for some reason) is well behind. We aren't going to badger and bully our wives, mothers and daughters because they don't agree with us are we? So why should we badger our English born neighbours! We can't say we are welcoming to everyone regardless of origins etc if we are only going to be welcoming if they agree with our views!

I also don't agree with this idea that elderly English people come here for the benefits. In the Borders we have a lot of English incomers and yes some have moved here once they are retired. Generally it is because they've loved coming to Scotland on holiday so decided to retire here. Places like the Highlands and Borders have more English incomers because they are nice rural places to live out your retirement. The Borders of course being the handiest place for visits back south or visitors from down south!

And sorry yes holiday homes is a problem in places like here but again you can't blame it on the English. Kirk Yetholm seems to be particularly full of holiday homes but as far as I can see the owners are as likely to come from Edinburgh as anywhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:13 AM

I also agree Mr T, it would be nice if everything was down on paper, signed and sealed, but that is not the way it works when there are politicians involved.
All the issues you mention, monetary union, EU membership(I hope not),the property scam, Where we stick England's nukes etc, will sort themselves out in ALL our interests after the referendum vote.

However, at the moment it is in the interests of Westminster to be as divisive and as negative as possible, although they know very well that Monetary Union is in BOTH our interests they just cannot say it, they are playing "politics". Trade with England will go on as usual, as they know very well it is in BOTH our interests.

We need inspiration, we have a strong sense of National identity, but we are failing a whole generation who lost their jobs and theirs heart when our manufacturing industries evaporated....and I don't blame Mrs Thatcher for that totally, I am not an idiotic ideologue like Ian.
The children of these hopeless people now exist on benefit handouts in "sinks" all over Scotland.....To the shame of successive Westminster governments

YES! for Scotland, and YES to our blighted young people!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:23 AM

The people of the UK do not wish their interest rates to be set on Scotland's risk and exposure with no method of controlling Scotland.

The people of Scotland do not wish interest rates to carry on being set by The UK with no way of influencing them, should the yes vote carry.

Find a friend to explain it to you. There are some Scots with such intelligence. Adam Smith put his willy about, I am told.

If Allan or anyone else with intelligence and considering how they will vote can explain how an independent Scotland will be free of the UK when Salmond speaks of negotiating having the structures with none of the say, I'd be genuinely obliged. I cannot begin to understand the logic beyond the aurora of nationalism and short term politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:30 AM

They may not like dealing with an independent Scotland, but there will be no alternative....unless you are keen to cut off your nose to spite your face.   :0)

Of course that's a pillar of "liberal" ideology.....isn't it Ian :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM

I apologise only to those deserving of such.

You Ian, are deserving of many things, but an apology is not one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 11:18 AM

I wouldn't bother anyway if I were you.

Until you learn to behave in society and keep your bigotry in your head, I'd laugh in your face should you ever apologise anyway.

You need to apologise to a hell of a lot of people ahead of me, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 01:27 PM

Salmond's position is that his first preference would be a formal shared currency. The advisors to the Scottish parliament which included two Nobel Laureates in economics suggested it would be beneficial for both Scotland and the rUK though they gave other options too. So of course others may disagree but it isn't the fairytale thinking that some would suggest. Initially the thought was that Salmond was just thinking of it as a stepping stone. Kirsty Wark on Newsnight tried to get him to suggest he'd commit to it for at least 40 years which he refused to be drawn into it. When the unionist parties came out with the "it's not going to happen" without really any apparent consultation some in the Yes campaign suggested it was a campaign strategy more than a serious response to the idea and that it would at least be discussed should there be a Yes vote. The No campaigns problem though is that they've thought various things, including this one, were game changers but of course they haven't been. The main driving force is that many people feel that only controlling our own destiny will in the long run enable us to build the type of society and nation we want - so despite the barage of "we love you but wouldn't work with you" coming from Westminster the polls have still been closing. Of course should there be a currency union then financially Scotland would be constrained by economic rules etc and they would have only a voice on the BofE and wouldn't control much - but of course at the moment we have no control anyway and the Scottish gvt has no voice. Many people feel that the big matters are being controlled by a gvt which has no real mandate to do so. On many other matters an independent Scotland would have far more control over its destiny than it has at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 01:50 PM

So at what point in the near future do volatile extremist armed separitists
turn Scotland into the UK's Eastern Ukraine....????


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:05 PM

So at what point in the near future do volatile extremist armed separitists turn Scotland into the UK's Eastern Ukraine

Seems to have already happened here. Ake would behead anyone English retired person living in Scotland.

Nice.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:10 PM

I'd behead myself for living near him...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:31 PM

Same old nonsense, no wonder we want rid of them.

If they love Scotland so much, why do they want to make it just like the place they can't wait to escape from?
Embrace the future ya Sassenachs, develop a bit of national pride!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:45 PM

We enjoy Scotland because we avoid bumping into idiots like you. I spent a smashing few days in Inverary last month with friends and we look forward to their wedding later this year.

We spent a week then in Fife, visited friends and had a lovely time in one of my cottages in Anstruther. Then a week in The Cairngorms. Absolutely wonderful and as ever with wonderful people.

Not one person we met or heard was anything like Akenaton. A loner in his own back yard.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 02:51 PM

WTF are you talking about ake? Who wants to make what a place like what? Are you finding life too difficult for you so you are resorting to goofus tactics and talking complete nonsense?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 03:12 PM

Perhaps Scotland should elect Donald Trump Chief of Scotland and all development of all Scottish wasteland seaside locations into golf courses.

The definition of wasteland is that it is either near the sea or mountains and thus may be purchased for a penny per acre after being condemned by the TRUMP BOARD OF OVERSEERS. (TBOO)


But seriously, what does Sean Connery think about a free Scotland?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 03:24 AM

OK Dave, take a look at Spain...if you need a mirror.

"We" are the people who live and work here, who have grown up surrounded by Scottish culture....who understand and cherish what it means to be a Scot in word a deed.

You and I, Ian, move in very different circles, I do not have the luxury of the "holiday lifestyle" ...nor wish for it.
I spend most of my time in reality, except for small excursions into Mudcatland. :0)

I am on first name terms with hundreds of people all over South Argyll...I knew their parents and sometimes their grandparents.
I am trusted implicitly.   I am proud of my place in our society.

You stick to your chosen lifestyle and I will stick to mine, but you learn little of life or culture from "casual aquaintaces"


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM

OK Dave, take a look at Spain...if you need a mirror.

I really have no idea what you are on about. I ask if you would deprive my mate of his home and you go on about Spain and mirrors. WTF???

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 04:10 AM

He's lost the plot.

Possibly from birth.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:35 PM

Haven't read all of this thread, but having read the first 3 or 4 posts, I have only one response.

FUCK OFF

Go screw with your own country.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:43 PM

I just read about some young people in Scotland who put bacon in a mosque in Edinborough, which isn't a nice thing to do. But I'll take it over the people here who broke into the Islamic center one night, turned on all the water taps, then stopped the drains to flood the place. Bacon is only dangerous if taken internally.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 12:07 AM

yeh.... abit nothing compared to the highland clearances though.....!

we won't move because my wife asked to retire here on the south coast - but if Scotland went independent, and it was my choice entirely. I would move there.

I think tory government is a blight on the country - its like recurring nightmare. I t just never occurs to them to develop the rest of the country apart from the south east where all their constituencies are.

its okay I suppose if you're in with the fast set, but theres all kinds of really bad shit happening - because the rest of the country is not getting its fair share of jobs and economic development.

the dependence on low wage immigrants, the obscene property prices around the capital, the drug culture and the people living on the streets - which previous to Thatcher were completely unknown in this country - its all a consequence of the grab it now culture.

Scotland has been treated shamefully. if it has a chance to break free from the malaise that grips the rest of this poor country - i'd say go for it!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:46 AM

Aye, its quite capable of its own malaise. Public health statistics that would make a third world country blush, government riding roughshod over public concern when it comes to oil barons and Americans wanting more gold courses and an unhealthy set of entries in most and least affluent council wards in The UK. A couple of Tories will still own Scotland between them, regardless of the outcome.

All thanks to SNP and Labour taking turns in running Scottish affairs. Tell you what, Cameron and his lot may not be my cup of tea either, but I shall happily let them off the hook when Salmond stands in a run down council estate in Dundee and tells them they never had it so good... It was hilarious when the camera panned to a bloke looking round at the broken windows, dog shit and burned out cars whilst he was speaking about their successful economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:35 AM

No one is denying that there are huge problems of drug abuse and youth unemployment in deprived areas of Scotland, but these problems are ALL historic and can be laid at the door of successive Westminster governments, both Labour and Conservative.

We will NEVER be able to tackle these very real problems, until we have complete control of our own affairs and can work out our own priorities.
A "NO" vote is a vote for a status quo, which is more of the "medicine" Westminster has been doling out for decades.
I agree with Jock, if you are happy with YOUR country as it is, butt out and allow us to made the decisions which concern US.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Kenny B Sans Kuki
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 10:31 AM

Guess which way im voting
Please reply in verse

Ally's Tartan Army

Chorus
We're on the march wi' Ally's Army
We.re a' gaunie vote for tae be free
When we're free we're gaunie boast
We dinnae ken or care the cost .
Cause Ally has said " itll a' be nearly free
and oil will pey"
Cause Ally has said "itll a' be nearly free

He has promised this and that
tae those that tip their hat
He has courted far and wide
For funds and such.
A' critics he dismisses
while the rich folks erse he kisses
Saying Scotland will be better under me
and who's he kiddin
Saying Scotland will be better under me .... Chorus

When they frackin English start
the price of oil will fa' apart
Diminishin returns will be our fate
A' the goodies he has promised
Will be forgotten or diminished
And those that choose tae break will rue the day
Will rue the day
And those that choose tae break .... Chorus

He forgets oor faithers focht
Tae defend the bloody lot
We a' focht to keep this island free.
He's no been asked, so he's no disputin
That he's done a deal wi Putin
Just in case the EU wont agree,
tae let us in
Just in case the EU wont agree, .... Chorus


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:47 PM

We a' focht to keep this island free.

I didn't know Scotland was an island? Still, in the spirit of the post...

I asked a Scot if he would beheid,
ma mate fra' England 'cause he did nae work
The Scot said I need to look at Spain
I dinnae know why. Maybe he's a jerk?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:18 PM

Ty ...... DTG
Noman is an island too
Jist geid ye that for free
Wid make things more interstin
If we a' took it a' in turns
An' took the time and posted
In the style o' Rabbie Burns


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:26 PM

I've often heard it said by oor leaders doon in London
Auld Scotland will be knackered if we vote tae leave the union,
Tae listen tae the wireless or telly they won't let us
They'll stop oor pocket money and the Russians will get us
For it's oh dear me, whit will ah dae
If we have tae pit up wi Westminster.

Clegg and Alexander and funny wee Vince Cable
Tae fend for oorselves, they tell us we're no' able
And Miliband agrees wi the Liberals and Tories
Wee Dougie Alexander is makin' up the stories
For it's oh dear me, whit will ah dae
If we have tae pit up wi Westminster.

There'll be cataclysmic bombshells, the world'll fall asunder
The sun will disappear in a roaring clap of thunder
Ben Nevis will fall down and Loch Lomond will freeze over
But by staying in the Union we'll be rolling in the clover,
For it's oh dear me, whit will ah dae
If we have tae pit up wi Westminster.

But we don't believe their threats for a brighter day is dawin'
An Cameron and Miliband can stop their crouse crawin'
We don't believe their lies and the promise o' disaster
For Scotland will flourish, free from London's bluff and bluster,
So let's be free, oh whit a day
When we say Cheerio tae Westminster.
Yes, let be free, oh whit a day
When we say Cheerio tae Westminster.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM

"All true and free thinking Scottish people will vote for union." -Musket

I consider myself a free-thinking Scot I will be voting yes - to break free from the 'Musketeers' and their ilk. [Though I do suspect our friendly agitator may be just a wind up merchant ;-)]

This vote is not only for Scots but for ALL the peoples who live in Scotland who want fair political representation. FWIW, nearly all the folk I know who have move here from over the border are voting 'yes'.

Here's a wee thought....
Prior to the referendum, why don't we move the border down to Watford and leave the SE to play Monopoly.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:33 PM

This vote is not only for Scots but for ALL the peoples who live in Scotland who want fair political representation.

It should be, Sol, but ake has already said that the English living there should have their views discounted. Glad to say that your view is the one that I find to be more representative.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:32 PM

BTW - I am all for the introduction of a real Watford Gap :-)

(No offense to my friend south of that divide!)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:45 PM

Jim, if that's wan eh yours, its a wee smasher!! :0)

Dunno how the boys are gaunnae cope wi' "There'll be cataclysmic bombshells, the world'll fall asunder", eftir a couple eh pints right enuff!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM

great song JIM ! well done ! have you been round playing it much?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM

Dave, I'm getting a bit sick of your parrot like misrepresentation.

All folks who live in Scotland are entitled to vote; I am not advocating removing the vote from retired rich English, just remarking on their hypocrisy in moving here, availing themselves of the benefits fought for by Alex Salmond and his government, then vociferously proclaiming that we should all vote against independence.

Noo away an' bile yer heid!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:05 AM

All this bollocks about wanting real political representation, then they go and build a new Parliament building. The layout suggests nothing new in approach eh?

Ask yourselves why the most expensive restaurant in Scotland is situated across the road from where the politicians and senior bureaucrats hang out in Leith.

Also, ask why things have carried on getting worse not better since 99% of decisions have been made in Edinburgh anyway.

Still, he can blow the dust off the folder entitled "Economic Celtic axis with Ireland and Iceland. ". His finest hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:15 AM

Trying to blame Alex Salmond for the financial collapse next....that's a trick even the "NO" campaign haven't tried yet!

The collapse was a failure of Capitalism, not Mr Salmond.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:50 AM

Big Al Whittle, I am a musician but I can't sing!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:59 AM

just remarking on their hypocrisy in moving here, availing themselves of the benefits fought for by Alex Salmond and his government,

What is there to misinterpret about that statement? My mate, as I have repeatedly stated, worked hard, paid his dues and saved his money to be able to retire to a place he loves and supported for many years. He owes nothing to Salmond or any politician. How is he a hypocrite? Why should he not be able to vote in whatever manner he likes without being subject to judgement from strangers who do not even know him?

Rhetorical questions of course. We all know damn well that you are happy to judge people that you have not even met...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:59 AM

Perhaps the worm likes different types of inward investment eh? He might nominate me for an honour in Salmond's new honours regime, (Alex's birthday honours) for owning properties and propping up the economy but not having the cheek to live there.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM

Anyway, I note that Gideon has effectively pointed the end destination of HS2 away from Edinburgh/Glasgow. It's very much in the Tories electoral favour if Scotland goes it's own way, of course, as it'll take half the Labour Party MPs with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 10:01 PM

The headmistress of my old prep school was an anglophile, so we had a succession of English women teaching there. One of them told a joke in class about how stupid the Irish were. Several of my classmates had Irish surnames. But she saw no harm in offending them.

When St. Patrick's day came, someboyd found a greeting card that declared the recipient an Honorary Irishman. It wasn't insulting. Quite the opposite. The card was bought for the teacher. But several of my classmates tried to keep it from her. They were afraid she might be offended.

That's the thing about the British, if you aren't one of them, and the right kind of one of them, they make no secret of their dislike of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:04 AM

"That's the thing about the British, if you aren't one of them, and the right kind of one of them, they make no secret of their dislike of you."

Into sweeping generalisations then LadyJean?

Can't think which is worse your comment or those of the Teacher, but as the remarks made by the Teacher are hearsay reported by you, I would tend to give her the benefit of the doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:55 AM

That's the thing about the British, if you aren't one of them, and the right kind of one of them, they make no secret of their dislike of you.

What a silly thing to say. What is 'the right kind'? Offensive to most British people as well. I think you need to either clarify what you mean or think again, LadyJean.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 05:54 AM

The British just happen to reside in an island that has consistently been a multicultural melting pot eh?

Doesn't seem like a lady to me...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 12:58 PM

Some thoughts from Scotland's finest writer of Scots sang, the wonderful
Davie Robertson.

Thankyou Britannia.
There are worse things to be than British. But there are also better things to be.

Oh thankyou Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia,
Aye thankful we'll be.
Fae the far Shetland Islands
Tae the Tweed we agree
We must thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

Fae Buchan's broad acres
Tae the wild western sea,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

For the Lords an the Commons,
Democracy's key,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

For Blair an for Thatcher
Particularly,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

For yer gallant brave girnin
At each Brussels decree,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

For exploitin oor ile
An extractin it for free,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

For light-touch regulation
That tae banks bends the knee,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

For the nuclear warheads
That for freedom can flee,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

For yer foreign adventures
Whaur heroes can dee,
We thank you Britannia,
Sae grateful are we.
Oh thankyou Britannia…etc

But some o these days

Common sense we may see.
When it's goodbye Britannia,
Sae grateful we'll be.
Sae thankyou Britannia,
But sae scunnert are we,
When it's goodbye Britannia
It's bluidy grateful we'll be!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:11 PM

I don't know whether that's poetic licence or whether he just plain forgot to thank his country for propping up the region's economy, social welfare bill and national infrastructure. Something in there about foreign adventures. I'd have kept quiet about that if I were Scottish...

If he had written it in English, any spurious message would get across eh?

Still, the good people of Scotland can thank their country in their prayers when they go to kirk, church, chapel, mosque, synagogue or temple. Scotland isn't quite the country it's misty eyed tartan clans think it is....


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:17 PM

Anither wan!

Scotland's progress towards independence has been a fairly low-key affair. This description of
Independence Day is a prophecy – if not for this time round, maybe next time. The tune of this one is
based on the tune of the ballad "Rosie Anderson".

Independence Day.

Some said that we'd rue the day,
Some said they didnae care.
But we aw thought it wuid be nice
Tae say we had been there.
Sae when pipe bands an brass bands
Were aw lined up tae play,
We watched the Union Flag come doon
On Independence Day.

There were nae bluidstained banners there,
Nor eulogies ower the deid;
A wee lassie stepped up tae the front
An sang a song instead.
An when pipe bands an brass bands
Were aw lined up tae play,
Juist yin auld sodjer shed a tear
On Independence Day.

True enough, a bunch o bampots
Through in Glesgae werenae pleased,
An the papers said a gun or twae
Fae Belfast had been seized.
But when pipe bands an brass bands
Were aw lined up tae play,
Maist folk looked pleased enough tae me
On Independence Day.

A few financial wizards
Up an took a southerly tack,
But I never heard that mony folk
Were shoutin, "Haste ye back!"
An when pipe bands an brass bands
Were aw lined up tae play,
Mere money didnae maitter much
On Independence Day.

An maybe earthly paradise
Will never come tae be,
Nor wads o cash tae make a splash
For the likes o you an me.
But when pipe bands an brass bands
Were aw lined up tae play
That didnae really seem the pint
On Independence Day.......


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:40 PM

It's written in Scots FOR the Scots Ian.

The next time you're on holiday in Inneraora, try reading a bit of Donnchadh Bàn, Neil Munroe's "John Splendid", or "The lost Pibroch and Sheiling Stories", before you start handing out opinions on the nature of our country or our people.

As you pass yourself off as some kind of singer, I recommend Dougie Mclean's "Indigenous" CD.......for a bit of further education.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:41 PM

I'm a yank, but my heart is in the highlands. Do I get to vote?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:53 PM

A bheil àite ann airson daoine a bharrachd?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:02 PM

One nun dead!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:02 PM

Certainly Kendall, ah think ye've got the spirit in ye!

This is another from Davie Robertson, A finishing school for "numpties" of ALL nationalities.

SWEETIE WIVES DRAW NEAR.
The sort of things described in "Sweetie wives draw near" are all harmless enough in themselves, but when they are bundled together and served up as the very epitome of Scottish Culture, they give, in my opinion, a seriously misleading impression of what Scotland is all about.

"Ye guardians o the sacred flame
That burns in Granny's Hielan Hame
Upon the altar, in the shrine
Built there for Auld Scots Mither Mine,
Aside the sacred Rowan Tree,
For worshippers o aw things wee;
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

Ye cringe-inspirin concert turns,
Skirlin sopranos murderin Burns;
Ye prancers tae the fiddle an box,
In tartan sashes an white frocks;
An you that sits an taps yer fit,
An may a decorous "Hooch!" emit:
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

Ye champions o the guid Scots tongue
That never speak it, yet hae clung
Bizarrely tae a word or twae –
"As Granny said," is what ye'll say.
Tae write in Lallans ye've the cheek,
But ape the English when ye speak:
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

An listen here noo, each smert alec
That's learnt a word or twae o Gaelic,
But never got much further on
Than "slà inte mhath" or "pò g mo thò n",
Ye'll aye spectacularly fail
Tae be mistaken for a Gael:
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

Enthusiasts for pipes an drums,
An swingin kilts ower manly bums;
Aw you whae think yer day's been made
When crap like Highland Cathedral's played;
An when yer herts ye wish tae roose,
Watch DVDs o auld Tattoos:
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

Pontificators, deidly borin,
On hoo the tartan should be worn
So's tae avoid sartorial blunder;
But, dearie me, I often wonder –
If ye've nae drawers on, when ye're fartin,
Does that no sometimes soil the tartan?
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

Aye, aw ye folk whae spend yer lives
As couthy auld Scots sweetie wives
O every age an either gender,
An castigate each gross offender
Against yer ain impoverished taste –
Believe me, ye're a waste o space!
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

Intellectual, aye, an arty,
But sometimes coorse, an often clarty;
Oor Scotland has a deep rich vein
O creativity aw her ain;
An shairly noo it's time tae bin
The culture o the shortbreid tin!
Ye sweetie wives draw near.

Sae take a think, an lend a hand,
Yer country's culture tae expand.
A culture built o fire an zest,
An deep abidin interest;
A land o passion an delight
Where only pigs roll in the shite!
Ye sweetie wives draw near."
(Words original. Tune mostly original, with a hint of "The back o Benachie


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 04:17 PM

I'll tell you this "Aken not very much". Half the reason the house prices in Scotland are as high as they are and local kids can't afford them is because Scots have pushed the price up in loads of cases to make more money from those they see as rich. (Not that I have too much problem with exploiting the rich) But the problem is that in doing so, they have priced their own kids out of the market for their own greed. When Mrs Viking and I moved to Orkney we found that many Orcadians thought that anyone from the South was rich and an easy target. They sell bits of their land at inflated prices and their own kids or other Orcadian families can nae afford them, nor the houses built on them. The Orcadians loved selling to the rest of the world because they could get a much higher price.We loved every moment of our life on Orkney and they people we met welcomed us.We love living in Scotland. Our kids studied here,Formed their partnerships here, we will die here and not go back. And most likely we will vote for independence, but not so you can stick your stereotypical gesturing fingers at us but because it is our choice to do so.

It often strikes me how selective the Scots are about their history and they forget how much support the English got from the Scottish Nobles. (Not sure what a noble is...another name for a greedy bastard)Plenty of Scots turned on Scots and fought for the English. There's plenty of very rich Scots who own plenty of very rich lands and houses. Try being a peasant and affording to fish the Tay or the Spey. Luckily, we haven't met many people like you.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 06:37 PM

I'm Dave The Gnomes mate Dave. I don't much use mudcat any more but this thread intrigued me so I have read it all. Just a few comments. I live off a private pension earned from a british company and I also have a westminster pension earned by 46 years of paying taxes and insurance stamp. I pay taxes to the British government and if Scotland becomes independant I will pay them to the Scottish government. I do not (by dint of work, saving and luck) take anything from the state either British or Scottish.
I wasn't born in Scotland, I chose to live in Scotland not because of an accident of birth but of a love and passion about Scotland and Galloway in particular. I am involved in our local community, pub etc and have never experienced anything like the vitriol I have read on this thread. If Scotland choses independance my pensions will still be paid from the UK because they were earned there. I will however, as I have said, pay my taxes to the Scottish government. Now what part of this do you not like Ake? because your attitude and general unpleasant vituperation are not what I am accustomed to from Gallovidians.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 01:36 AM

If the weird ones hadn't noticed, we are all British and have shared responsibility for the last few hundred years.

Voting for local decision making at every level may be commendable although not advisable in the circumstances. This crap about misty eyed nationalism and blaming everyone the other side of an arbitrary border for all your woes though doesn't cut it with many people.

Songs and jingoism may get a few irresponsible votes but sober analysis of promises from an idealistic politician who answers questions by saying other politicians will have to change their minds whilst he won't?

I wasn't aware the majority of people voting were thick as pigshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:00 AM

Reading through the songs lovingly "cut-n-pasted" by the likes of Ake I am grateful that they are lengthy enough and boring enough so as to never be performed - those listening would fall asleep half way through them.

No Kendall, thankfully you do not get a vote.

Eric the Viking is perfectly correct Ake, the price of property is set by the owner and he/she is free to sell it to whoever will meet his/her price. Therefore to blame the price of property on those who buy is complete and utter stupidity.

This whole referendum fiasco was driven by less than 25% of the electorate of Scotland, it has wasted millions and will prove divisive and harmful to Scotland. The vote on the 18th September I think will be NO, I certainly hope so.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 04:04 AM

Wot he said


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:30 AM

Guid nicht!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:42 AM

Thanks Dave - Didn't expect to see you on here! Confirms what I said all along. Erik - Well put as well. Now, can we put it to bed? It is blatantly obvious that the attitudes in Scotland are not predominately the ones that ake displays.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Seaham cemetry
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:28 AM

Akenaton's attitudes leave much to be concerned over.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

I think you are wrong Mr T, the buying price of houses have very much affected the rents that are charged; also the shortage of affordable housing to buy, pushes more people into the rental market....and it is sellers market at the moment.

A little statistic to ponder, there are now around 450,000( around 1 in 12) English "immigrants" who have moved to live in Scotland and almost 80% of them are reckoned to be "NO" voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:02 AM

So how many Scots have fucked off to live and work in England,
and what difference would a 'yes' vote mean to them ?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:02 AM

Seaham Cemetery, if we should be concerned about the attitudes of members here, your name would be top of the list.

You are a libellous stalker. You still have a chance to apologise publically for your disgusting and completely untrue allegations, but time is running out.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:37 AM

Seems there's only 3 Scots contributing to this thread and they all favour Independence.

Most of the rest, with a couple of honourable exceptions, love Scotland so much that they don't want it to change....the second class lives of many of our young folk, the despair associated with decades of neglect...the benefit culture in place of a real life.
The theft of our resources to finance that culture.
The dumping of nuclear weapons on our soil, against the wishes of the Scottish people, the foreign wars of aggression that we marched against....Iraq, Libya, and support for "democracy" in the clothes of Islamic fundamentalism all over the Middle East!

Well thank you very much, but take your love and stick it where the sun don't shine, we'll have our country free and if we make mistakes they will be our mistakes. We have no pretensions of being a "world power", we will be a small trading nation, but a proud and free one.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:45 AM

GUEST, only a tiny proportion of the population of England are Scottish, and I don't believe their votes on any issue would make much difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:57 AM

Yes but what practical & bureaucratic differences would a 'Yes" vote make to the status and lives
of Scots living and working in the rest of Britain


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:01 AM

Isn't it wonderful. My friends who we stayed with in Inveraray a few weeks ago made it quite clear they are voting no.

Guess what? They are English!

Guess what? They are gay!

Guess what? They have as much right as Akenaton, as much say as Akenaton and their residence has as much validity as that of Akenaton.

No such thing as an English immigrant. They are UK citizens just like Akenaton, only not so prone to embarrass people in polite company by spewing bigoted shameful bile.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:04 AM

I don't think it would make any practical difference GUEST, any Scottish national wishing to live and work in England would be subject to the taxation requirements of that country, as would English living and working in Scotland.

Perhaps Independence would encourage most to return home and make a start on building the new Scotland?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:11 AM

My point is that the ENGLISH vote(both homo and hetero), on whether or not we become an independent nation, will possibly make a considerable difference to the result.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:12 AM

Passports ? immigration status ? visas ? etc.. ?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:24 AM

Cross border buying and selling of goods ? customs taxes + admin fees ?
VAT ?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:32 AM

Border control ? smuggling ? etc etc ...???


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:49 AM

For GUEST


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:01 PM

Ok, but there's well over 600 points in that FAQ..

- a bit like asking a religiously inclined mate a quick question about his beliefs
and being told to fuck off and read the Bible.......


All I want to know right now is if after a "Yes" vote, if I buy a mail order guitar from a Scottish seller,
will it be like buying from USA and having to pay extortionate import duties, Vat, and admin fees on top ???


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:48 PM

According to Business Scotland, there should be no change to sales within the UK Answer here


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:06 PM

I wasn't aware Business Scotland were in a position to say that. If Scotland is not part of The EU, there may be trade duty with EU members, of which The UK is a member. If they don't accept UK interest rate conditions for using sterling, you may have exchange rates to consider...

All academic hopefully. Not every Scottish person has the low IQ and bitter nationalistic persona of Akenaton. Most are, to coin a Scottish phrase, too canny to fall for promises that can't be backed up.

Mind you, it would be ironic if the margin of the no result was less than the number of people born in England who voted. It means fuck all, but still, adds another entry to Akenaton's list of people to blame for his sad sorry situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Seaham Cemetry
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:17 AM

I have just completed a short tour of duty at an airbase in the North of Scotland. I am English.

It amazes me how attitudes alter with circumstance. The small towns and villages around here rely on the only real large employer, the civilian posts here and the infrastructure to support the airbase and RAF Regiment barracks. The future of the airbase could be in jeopardy if a yes vote carries. NATO need and wish for presence up here but not sure of the politics around seeing Scotland as a full partner.

A few miles away from the influence and the farming communities are reading with interest the SNP claims that an independent Scotland within The EU stands for lots of farming subsidies so vote yes for self interest. The SNP appear to have a low opinion of its own electorate, let alone the queue to join The EU, on EU terms.

In Glasgow recently when my wife had a couple of her dogs racing, I was chatting with lots of people over the evening and the vote was the big topic. I didnt see much enthusiasm from there for independence, although a few good jokes were told about those who want it.

The vote will be interesting, and I predict the reasonable turnout for the yes campaign will give the next Westminster government food for thought in extending further devolution. Which for many, with the safeguards of The UK and more local decision making, is a win win.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:18 AM

This exchange is absolutely priceless:

Guest: "All I want to know right now is if after a "Yes" vote, if I buy a mail order guitar from a Scottish seller,
will it be like buying from USA and having to pay extortionate import duties, Vat, and admin fees on top ???


Akenaton: "According to Business Scotland, there should be no change to sales within the UK"

The referendum in which you are voting YES is for for Scotland to leave, i.e. put itself voluntarily outside, the UK

Oh by the way here is one Scot who definitely will not vote YES.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:41 AM

Akenaton:

" the buying price of houses have very much affected the rents that are charged; also the shortage of affordable housing to buy, pushes more people into the rental market....and it is sellers market at the moment."

The rents are levied by the owners of the property and in Scotland they will be predominantly Scottish born and bred.

The prices of houses for sale in Scotland will in all probability be being sold by owners/sellers who are predominantly Scottish born and bred.

"A little statistic to ponder, there are now around 450,000( around 1 in 12) English "immigrants" who have moved to live in Scotland and almost 80% of them are reckoned to be "NO" voters."

As Musket has said there are no English "immigrants" in Scotland and as British citizens registered on electoral rolls in Scotland they are perfectly entitled to vote which ever damn way they please.

Off the top of my head I believe that the number of ex-pat Scots living and working down in England is somewhere in the region of ~800,000.

"Perhaps Independence would encourage most to return home and make a start on building the new Scotland?"

With the levels of Tax Jowly Eck & Co will have to introduce I wouldn't expect that number to be great and I doubt very much if "Shurr Shean" is going to pop over from the Caymans to help you out.

"The dumping of nuclear weapons on our soil, against the wishes of the Scottish people"

Actually Ake more Scots want the bases, the subs, the weapons and the work to remain exactly where it is than want it removed - 51% compared to 39%.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 09:04 AM

I know that you are normally factually correct Mr T, but people selling small houses in the South of England for large sums then coming into the Scottish property market have certainly inflated house prices here and that inflation works its way through to the rental sector.

If your figure of 800.000 is correct, it is only a tiny percentage of the English population and as I have said would make little difference to voting returns.
The voting intentions of the English in Scotland are sure to be a serious factor in the referendum result.
Of course everyone living here has the right to vote, but does it not seem hypocritical to come here, take advantage of the social benefits fought for by the Scottish Government, then vote against their declared policies?
BTW the word "immigrant" was used tongue in cheek, for the benefit of our mutual friend Ian.....as I'm sure you're well aware.

Didn't know YOU were a Scot Mr T.....my goodness, that explains your command of facts and your ability to see through much of the bullshit we have to put up with.

Sorry you wont be voting Yes.
What will you do if Scotland votes FOR independence?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 09:18 AM

Sorry, I should have said, no change to sales between an independent Scotland and the remainder of the UK.
It's all in the link.
I don't think "War Work" is particularly health for a small trading nation to engage in.
Hopefully most of the historic association between Scots and brutal warfare will start to diminish with Independence.
In was a symptom of how we were exploited by the Union. Young workless lads? Oh just get them intae the Army, cannon fodder for the Empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 09:34 AM

Hopefully most of the historic association between Scots and brutal warfare will start to diminish with Independence.
In was a symptom of how we were exploited by the Union. Young workless lads? Oh just get them intae the Army, cannon fodder for the Empire.


I think that just about takes the biscuit so far, although I am sure you have a few more gems up your sleeve, ake.

Being cannon fodder was nothing to do with being Scottish. Do you think no-one from Lancashire or Yorkshire or Northumberland was hard done by in times of conflict? Get that chip off your shoulder and eat it with your deep fried pie.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Seaham Cemetry
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 09:42 AM

As I stated above, noted by Teribus, the defence industry is vital in many ways to the economy of Scotland. The first thing an independent Scotland would have to do is call an election. In it, I doubt SNP or any other serious party would repeat the "remove the submarines" ticket.

Salmond has already hinted at negotiating keeping UK defence infrastructure within Scotland. He can do that because he isn't saying an independent Scotland would remove them, he is saying an independent Scotland could remove them. Remember, this referendum isn't about SNP and it's policies, it's about freedom to enact policies they and others can't carry out right now.

He's a politician, if you hadn't noticed.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Seaham cemetry
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 09:45 AM

On other matters, a few posts ago, Akenaton asked me to apologise TO him.

Whih would be odd, because most people apologise FOR him.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM

Seaham Cemetery, some time ago on this forum, you stated libellously that I had passed some of my racing dogs on to a builder in Seaham who was in the "business" of killing unwanted dogs of all varieties.

This was an outright lie and could be damaging to me as a trainer and owner. My lawyer reckons it is actionable under the new legislation, he has the post on file and awaits my instructions.

I await your apology, or some proof of the veracity of your allegations.

Dave, yes I agree the youth of North of England has been exploited as much as the Scots by the UK war machine, but they do not appear to have learn much from he experience

Freedom for Northumberland!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:02 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM

Whilst not wishing to get embroiled in an argument between racing dog trainers, how would legal action of this type work between The UK and a foreign Scotland I wonder?

The alert to my ISP over incitement to hatred as displayed by Akenaton is straight forward. They pass it to the police pan constabulary unit who decide if it is worth pursuing and using international agreements require Mudcat Cafe Music Foundation Inc to pass on Akenaton's IP address and give his details to the local plod. Keeps it all in house in Scotland, as the pan constabulary unit can carry on or just work as two.

Akenaton and Seaham Cemetery having their discussion in public dragged into a legal sphere? Not sure how that could work between countries, at least in the years prior to Scotland being able to join The EU and cross border cooperation.

Interesting...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM

but they do not appear to have learn much from he experience

While the youth of Scotland have???

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:16 PM

Oh, and BTW Dave, yes I agree the youth of North of England has been exploited as much as the Scots by the UK war machine

Is as nonsensical as your first statement. Nothing to do with the North of England either. All young men from deprived backgrounds have always been cannon fodder. You cannot categorise people by where they live. How many times do I need to say everyone should be measured on their own merits. Not their country, creed or colour.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM

If Scotland votes for independence, then presumably every registered voter living in Scotland at that time would become a Scot. Which means I could apply for a Scottish passport.....Oh no, silly of me Scotland doesn't have a passport office, or any embassies. Never mind I could get a Scottish drivers licence...Ooops problems problems. Who would issue me with my car tax then.....VOSA MOT becomes problematical too. I bet Mr Salmond has factored all these in. I can just see it now. For the opening of 189 embassies 50,000 Scottish pounds. For building a tax and excise office s£20,000. Running above s£100,000 per annum. Passport office s£.......it's a joke it really is until the yes campaign tell the truth about costs of independence. On a financial level it will be a disaster. Oil revenues are tax collection only. Last figures "In the last two years Corporation Tax
revenues have declined by 60% from £8.8
billion in 2011-12 to £3.6 billion in
2013-14 and Petroleum Revenue Tax by 45%
from £2.0 billion to £1.1 billion in 2013-14." My source for the above is HM Revenue and customs Statistics of
Government revenues
from UK oil and gas
production.
Mr Salmond forcasted 12 Billion a year. Do you think that governments dictate oil and gas revenues. Wake up and smell the crude. They are dictated by the big oil corps who will shift extraction to obtain the most favourable tax costs and profits where they can. They will screw Salmond to the ground. They don't give a monkeys about the UK do you think they will go shiney eyed over an independent Scotland. We will be financially fucked if we go independent and my greater fear is there will be no going back for the coming generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:04 PM

.....I have to say too. The costs for the Scottish parliament building Estimated at £40 million by Scotland. Was eventually built by Scotland for £414 million. The Edinburgh tram. £375 Million over budget, half the size first designed and 5 years late. Built and designed by Scotland......Salmond says trust me.....I can only hope and pray that the polulation of Scotland don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:37 AM

Five years late Dave? And the rest...

It's academic anyway, I remain convinced that the voters are more sophisticated than that and not everybody has the low intellect of Akenaton. There are only so many idealistic votes borne of ignorance. When ex iron curtain or ex war zone countries emerge, the west fall over themselves to help bear the cost of nationhood. I doubt anyone will give aid to a petulant series of UK counties with a referendum.

The benefits of removing even more Westminster decisions are very tempting. Tempting for anywhere outside of the Home Counties. But I doubt Rutland or North East Lincolnshire would wish to open embassies as the price. Having been on many trade jollies over the years, embassy caviar bills alone must make your eyes water.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:33 AM

Caviar? "You're spoiling us, Ambassador!"


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 04:24 AM

Bloody am. Not impressed with the stuff.. (I do not know if I have ever been offered caviar at an embassy bun fight. I can however confirm that having been to many in lots of different countries over the years, I have never ever been offered Ferrero Rocher chocolates.......)

I tried caviar (best Beluga) when I was in Azerbaijan a few years ago, as let's face it, that's where most of it comes from. The locals have a Marmite approach to it, they either spread it on toast or don't touch the stuff. (Cheap as chips in Baku markets.)

Presumably haggis can have the same approach if a closed Scotland limits availability. That's how the soviets did it with caviar. I don't know if they graze south of the border, and to be fair, I have never seen them in the wild, not even the more common clockwise ones. McSweens only catch clockwise haggis for the better taste.

Haggi?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:13 AM

Get your facts right Dave!
Both of the projects which you cite, were instigated, promoted and costed by the Westminster parties, Labour and the Lib Dems.
Both projects were strongly opposed by Mr Salmond and the SNP when they were in opposition.
The costing was ludicrous and helped the pro devolution parties to push the projects to the public, as a sop against REAL independence.

This misinformation and downright lying by the "NO" campaign, has been an unfortunate feature of this debate


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

Ian, there is a simple answer, either get your friend put up some proof of his allegations, or apologise. Quite simple.
Failing that, action shall be instigated long before Independence, so stop fretting.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

Akenaton:

The referendum question to be decided upon on the 18th September 2014 will be put not to the people of Scotland but to the electorate of Scotland as a whole - period - not to Scots voters, not to English voters, not to Polish voters or voters of any other category or label you want to use. The electorate of Scotland will vote and I believe that they will vote "NO" using their commonsense and not emotion, they will do so for the step they are being asked to take by the Yes Campaign in irreversible - once broken the Union can never be remade.

The result of the referendum will I believe be NO, and to those in the Yes Camp who say that they will just try again I would sincerely hope that the next time a referendum on Scottish independence is proposed the electorate of Scotland get a chance to state beforehand whether or not they want one, had that been the case this current referendum with its monstrous waste of time, effort and money would never have occurred it was pushed through by the SNP, for the SNP by less than one-quarter of the electorate of Scotland. The ridiculous White Paper "Scotland's Future" is little more than a "rose-tinted" SNP Manifesto full of baseless assumptions which when put up for critical review crumble to dust and prove worthless.

You ask what I will do if Scotland votes for independence? Make sure my money is safe then sit back and watch the train-wreck as it unfolds - It took us 350 years of internal bickering and greed the last time to destroy what we had and bring our nation to its knees. With our current crop of professional politicians I reckon it will not last three-and-a-half decades before Scotland is reduced to basket case status - possibly some Russian oligarch will buy it as a curio

"Hopefully most of the historic association between Scots and brutal warfare will start to diminish with Independence.
In was a symptom of how we were exploited by the Union. Young workless lads? Oh just get them intae the Army, cannon fodder for the Empire."


IIRC life in Scotland pre-Act of Union was a damned sight more brutal and warlike than ever it was after.

During the Jacobite Rebellions more Scots fought for the Government side than ever fought for the rebels. They did so not wishing for a return of "the bad old days" - THEY, the majority of Scots saw the tangible benefits of Union as opposed to the empty promises of France and the "pie-in-the-sky" Jacobites.

Poor working class lads eh? Exploited by the Union? If that is what you think you know little of the history of most of our Scottish Regiments both Highland and Lowland.

The Black Watch (42nd Regiment of Foot) for instance of "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" fame - they, because they were not Clan based were the only Regiment that actually used recruiting parties and even then on their first being raised all men were "gentleman soldiers", all were volunteers and all had to bring with them letters of introduction and character, literally hundreds were turned away.

Fastest Regiment ever raised in the British Isles to serve under the colours was the 25th Regiment of Foot - The Kings Own Scottish Borderers - it took them less than 40 minutes to enlist over 800 men - again all volunteers.

79th Regiment of Foot - The Cameron Highlanders - raised by one of the Clan Chiefs with money from his own pocket - all volunteers

John Prebble in his book on the Clearances details the contribution made by volunteers from the Isle of Skye to Britain's armed forces during the Napoleonic War - it was staggering in terms of numbers which included Officers over the rank of Colonel, Line Officers, NCOs and men (over 10,000 of the latter IIRC)

Any claim to Scottish feats of arms mainly post-date 1707 and were won wearing Scarlet Coats and under Union Colours - prior to that the track record wasn't that brilliant.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:58 AM

Something not mentioned in this thread as far as I can see having just read all the posts ----the scam worked by some of our wide awake southern neighbours in more than one area of our country.
This scam involved families who having moved up here then bringing their parents to live with them and then making the parents homeless they then having to be given social housing by the local authority which in due time they purchased at a discounted price.
This scam has of this week been scuppered as no social housing can now be sold.
These are the type of people who are not welcomed in our country nor should they be in any self respecting country and any attempt to justify them cannot be condoned.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM

Will someone tell Akenaton this is not an election? You are voting for Labour, Conservative, Greens, SNP, Lib Dem, Monster Raving Looney and all the rest. This is not about SNP in power or out. They just happens be in the yes camp.

To say that Salmond opposed something Labour brought in has any bearing on this referendum just shows the need for information as Akenaton clearly doesn't even know what he is voting for! He thinks it is a party political vote for crying out loud!

Gutcher isn't the sort you'd want to chat with either. It isn't your country. It's The UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 11:46 AM

It may be to you the UK but it was never so by the will of the majority of the people of Scotland---go read your history.
Musket comes over in any thread he contributes to as just the type of person who would praise the downright rottenesss of some of his fellow countrymen and their malpractices.
As to selling property and the local people not being able to compete with purchasers from what, is to me, a foreign country I have long wished we had the laws that are available to some continental countries whereby locals [citizens] can buy at one price and others have to pay some four or five times the local purchase price.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:10 PM

Like the cut of your jib, Butcher :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM

To show it is not all one way traffic---a true story.
THE BITER BIT.
My late friend Gregor, a crofter up near Kingussie had the following experience.
Sitting at the kitchen table with his friend John enjoying a cup of tea a knock at the door "good morning my name is Torquil Hoochmagandy FFlufington Smythe, [it may have been Musket, who knows] are you Mr Gegor Mackenzie, I am your new landlord" "come away in laird {anyone from a mister to a duke is addressed as laird in his own land up here]
this is my friend John, sit down Mr Smith and what can I do for you today? "it,s what I can do for you Mr Mackenzie, you may have heard I have paid a stiff price for this estate and in order to make up the purchase price I have decided to offer some of the sitting tenants the chance to purchase their crofts, would you be interested in buying yours? " O aye Mr Smith I would like fine to become a laird just like yourself." "do you mind if we discuss business in front of your friend" "not at all Mr Smith fire away" "well Gregor, do you mind if I call you Gregor?" not at all Torquil since we are about to become neighbouring lairds I do not mind atall atall" " well the price I am seeking for this fine croft, and believe you me you will never get a better bargain, is £86000.oo" Gregor sits in silence for a few minuets," John he says rax me doon that writing pad and cheque book from the shelf behind you" Gregor writes out a few lines on the pad and then fills out a cheque, having asked who to make it out too,
the paper is passed to the landlord who reads --received from Gregor Macenzie The sum of £1200.00 in full and final payment for croft xxxxx "Gregor there is some mistake here" "nae mistake laird all I have to pay for the croft under the crofting legislation is 14 times my annual rent, just have your man of business send on the title deeds, You,ll have a dram to celibrate the transaction,--no well good morning to you sir"

Gregor is no longer with us and the new laird was roupet oot the door not having been able to come up with the full purchase price for his grand estate.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:55 PM

Good job I bought my Scotland properties when they were cheap then. The holiday lets have mainly English tourists and the student lets also, although a few Norwegians of course. They can afford the Morningside digs.

History? How far back do you want to go? Go forward to September instead. That's all that counts. By your reckoning, where I live is under Danelaw. zzzzz

You are not a foreigner to me. You seem to be a chippy bugger but we have them all over, not just in the Northern counties of Great Britain.

Just watching Wimbledon. What do you reckon this year, British winner or Scottish loser?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:10 PM

Well MR T I'm surprised by your response, if we all sit back and wait for a train wreck, Independence will never be realised.
The least your could do in a democratic "yes" victory, would be to accept the will of the majority and try your best to make Independence a success.

Of course there will be difficulties, but united as one nation we can make Scotland a better place to live in for everyone.
People are sick of the Westminster merry go round...sick of politicians in fact. The parties no longer inspire our young people.

Remember how WE thought we could change the world through party politics, well most young people do not believe it any longer and I don't blame them. Millions of them have been written off to take the pressure away from a defunct system.

Most of us here FEEL Scottish, not British, regardless of how we vote, and that sense of National Identity can be harnessed for the benefit of ALL our citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, sick of politicians. Have Salmond instead...

Progress I suppose. Not seeing SNP as a political party. Snag is, they are. They are as competent or incompetent as any other politicians, except on the whole they are idealists rather than pragmatists.

Wouldn't it be funny if the yes vote won the day and a traditional party won the general election that followed?

You feel bigoted for that matter, but sadly, you are a British bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:01 PM

You have the gall to tell me to get my facts right. I research before I publish unlike both you and the SNP yes campaign "The search for a new site for the new Parliament building began after the referendum in September 1997 in which the people of Scotland voted by almost three to one for the creation of the first Scottish Parliament in almost 300 years. ". Please note the source is the Scottish parliaments website. What part of "The people of Scotland and Referendum" do you have difficulty understanding. You seriously believe that Westminster inaugurated the debacle of Edinbrough trams. More yes campaign lies and deceit.
You are now showing your marked lack of understanding basic facts which borders on ignorance. Like your mentor Salmond. I see that the 8 billion shortfall in the rose tinted white paper (which works out at £1600 approx per population) will probably be ignored or made up from the 2.46 million people who work. (38% men 25% women and 18% part time. The rest made up of self employed etc.) As the shortfall is £1600 per head of population and must be made up by the 2.5 Million who work that now becomes £3200 approx per head extra tax Salmond needs to find. It's beyond a joke, it's just Salmond-ism or pantomime "Oh yes we can".
It's too late for you to smell the coffee because you have obviously seen and believed Braveheart. You have become a Hollywood Scot.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 08:45 PM

I'm not so much worried about their departure as the possibility some numpty politician lets them back in again for a pittance once it fails.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 03:00 AM

Guest above hits on an interesting point. The cost to The UK of bailing out an independent failed Scotland and restoring the status quo would be a burden on the taxpayer.

The risk being a British referendum telling them that having made their bed, lay in it.

You could always turn the parliament building into a hotel for Americans over to watch the Edinburgh tattoo.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM

Dave and Ian....you obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Of course we are not voting for Mr Salmond, we are voting for a Free Scotland, and there will be various political stances available to vote for in a subsequent election to form a Scottish government.

Dave... I said that the projects were pushed and promoted by Westminster PARTIES, "Scottish" Labour and Lib Dem.
Mr Salmond and the SNP the only voice for Scottish independence, IN OPPOSITION at the time, opposed both projects strongly.
At the time, the Nationalists had only a handful of MP's, since then support for a Free Scotland had grown and continues to grow.

The result will be close and will depend on how the large number of "don't knows" decide to vote.
Polls suggest that a large percentage of "don't knows" are responding unfavourably to the negative propaganda of the "NO" faction

Unlike my friend Teribus, I believe that we in the "YES" camp have the momentum and will carry the day.....then it will be "Ceilidh Time"
and Mr T will be Guest of Honour...I bet he will join us in a Hie'lan Fling, rather than sit waiting on a gory old "train wreck"?    :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 08:45 AM

Which completely confuses your earlier post.

Ask whoever tells you what to put to be a wee bit more consistent? Some of it I can understand by going to the source at the Yes camp websites, but I'd rather not bother.

Enjoy your Ceilidh. Set it up in the name of a limited company though, no bugger will be able to afford to pay for the caterers, and you could always put it in liquidation like many of my customers did when Ravenscraig shut. Aye, we always carried a disproportionate amount of debt from business in Scotland. Costain over at Wishaw too, not to mention a few in Cumbernauld pissing away start up grants and leaving suppliers like us high and dry.

Dave Wynn seems far more in tune with my take on it, and considering I am neither here nor there in terms of preference itself, not being ginger or suffering from CHD or any other feature of being Scottish, I would be slow to dismiss facts if I were voting.

I loved the bit where One of Salmond's mates said on BBC Question Time that the no camp can't be getting their facts right because Alistair Darling was born in London.

Nationalism and repugnant chauvinism. Not the best excuse for risking your economy...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

"
Which completely confuses your earlier post."

Rubbish!....The Parties after Independence, will be free from Westminster control and will have as a priority the wellbeing of Scotland and her people.
At the moment they may call themselves "Scottish Labour" or "Scottish Conservatives", but their first allegiance is to Westminster and which ever government is in power there, no matter how unrepresentative it may be to the people of Scotland.
The huge waste of money involved in helping the US to "police" the world will come to an end.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 12:19 PM

Millbank is in Westminster.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 05:45 AM

Keep going Ake.....Being truth and fact blind seems to be a requirement for the yes campaign. If the facts and the truth don't fit then just don't see or acknowledge them. This has been the whole basis of Salmonds campaign. Bank of england. "You can't have the GBP"......Salmond "yes we can". your revenue forcast on oil is 8 Billion delinquent....Salmond..No it isn't.....You haven't given any costings...Salmond..Yes we have...... He is just a denial politician.

My last posting on this matter because I have better things to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM

I should think have!.......Supporting the "NAW! an' ah'll no' tell ye again!" campaign?.....whit a waste o' time!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM

Google translation didn't help me either.

What language was that Worm? It helps if I can tell Google translate what the source is.

Fantasy isn't a language though.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 10:46 AM

Translation for Ian.

"NAW an' ah'll no' tell again.".... was a last warning from Scottish mothers to unruly children, which was swiftly followed by a sharp "skelp oan the lug", if not heeded.

The "NO", anti-independence faction would like to behave in such a manner, but we, the Scottish people are not children to be disciplined.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Montgomery
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM

"Fantasy isn't a language though."   


errrrmmm... Klingon...???


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 11:10 AM

Klingon....are you a UK citizen Monty?
Its "Glasgow dialect", have you ever heard a bit of true "Geordie".

God knows how they spell it but it sounds lovely!    :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 11:16 AM

I must say I think all you lot are missing the point.

of course Scotland should go it alone!

Make all these rich bastards with their acres of land a nd enormous fortunes pay for the protection they receive from hot headed revolutionaries like me.. make the queen pay bedroom tax on balmoral!

does anyone really doubt that half our tax money is being half inched by that gangs of turds in Westminster....?

a chance for Scotland to crawl out from under the oppression of London.....take it!

I can understand that Musket wiping his greedy chops and wolfing down another load of caviar (no thought of the Baku peasants down in the Caviar mines!) - he will want the oppression to continue. what a scoundrel!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 12:54 PM

Yes but Al, that's the addiction of capitalism. I just want to be a fiver behind you. If you saw, as I did, how filthy the Caspian Sea is, you'd think twice about eating unspunked fish eggs too...

If you are free any time with your protection business, I would be grateful if you kept an eye over my holiday lets in the down season and my student digs in the summer? Some of the winter ones, Kingussie, Aviemore etc get winter trade with the skiing, but no bugger wants to be in any of the others when the weather gets cold.

On a slightly serious note, the letting company I use for the student digs, a Scottish company at that, advise that if independence goes through, I may wish to take into the account the property value slump and raise my rents at the next review to protect my interest. Both universities that send clients are expecting it and have informed their accommodation staff to warn new students that private sector rents may rise from next year, and halls of residence may be reviewed too.

Aye, the Scots really are looking after the Scots eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM

raise the rents Musket! we sassenachs should make that nation of kilt wearing, whisky swigging deadbeats pay to live in their own country.

don't leave them enough to fry a fun size Mars bar!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

I don't intend to, don't worry. I'm already too bloody cheap. Not quite got the hang of this capitalism lark.

If they start paying me in groats or whatever currency they use, I'll be tapping you up for a loan.

Still, the attitude of the letting agents is interesting regarding the market. I also know properties are getting harder to sell as the referendum looms. Away from my windups, that is sobering...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM

groats....that's inspired!

Scots porridge Groats!

Start off the morning with Scot's porridge groats!

Start off the republic with Scot's porridge groats!

put the rent up! monny a mickle maks a macdonald meal deal...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 01:32 AM

Will they retain the pound?

Will they retain the quarter pounder ?

Will they retain the healthy gherkin usually served with it?

The pavement outside any McDonalds in the central belt answers the last one.

Of course, we dirty rotten stinking capitalists are hypocrites divine! A table for two at Castle Terrace wipes out a good £300 of ill gotten gains. That's, let me see, 67,536 groats and a scabby rabbit.

Interestingly, this week, all the holiday lets have Scottish families in them. That is rare. I'll just spend all day wondering how to get a cheap gag out of that. I don't have Al's spontaneous wit or zillions.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:35 AM

"Well MR T I'm surprised by your response, if we all sit back and wait for a train wreck, Independence will never be realised.
The least your could do in a democratic "yes" victory, would be to accept the will of the majority and try your best to make Independence a success.

Of course there will be difficulties, but united as one nation we can make Scotland a better place to live in for everyone.
People are sick of the Westminster merry go round...sick of politicians in fact."


Unfortunately Ake, should disaster strike and a YES vote prevail on the 19th September 2014, I will be in very in no position whatsoever to make "Independence" a success - the role played by pensioners in any society these days is extremely limited.

Lots of promises have been made by the SNP wrt life in an Independent Scotland, the only problem is they have not done the homework required that would enable them to argue the reality of their promises.

Those on benefits are expecting those benefits to increase from Day One. The civil service and public sector in Scotland currently in some departments cover the whole of the UK. Commonsense would tell anyone that the 350,000 jobs in this sector will not remain when departments are down-sized to cater for a country with a population of only 5.3 million instead of one of 64 million. Swinney's proposal and what he sees as being required is to borrow and borrow heavily for at least the first three years - worked well for Gordon Brown as Chancellor and for Gordon Brown as Prime Minister between 1997 and 2010 didn't it?

Capital flight and movement of jobs will be inevitable as will increased costs with trade between independent Scotland and the UK thrown up because that independent Scotland will find itself outwith the EU. To blithely presuppose that things will simply continue as they did before is naive to say the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 07:40 PM

No matter what happens to Scotland in September, it will be a divided nation for a few years. A big healing process will be required in the aftermath of the referendum. I'm surprised at the lack of preparation for the win/lose backlash.

Gone forever however, is the moral standing of the BBC. Also gone is any notion that the UK is a democracy. IMO, it's not.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:53 AM

"No matter what happens to Scotland in September, it will be a divided nation for a few years."

Guest, Sol care to tell me when prior to 1707 Scotland was a "united" country?

Borders not pacified until the 1650s.

Highlands and Islands didn't even recognise the King of Scotland as their ruler until the late 1490s and even after that remained a bickering, troublesome, lawless region until eventually "pacified" in the 1700s.

"Gone forever however, is the moral standing of the BBC."

It has been a great many years since the BBC had any moral standing - One means of setting out on the right road to recovering it would be for the BBC to release the Balen Report for public scrutiny. The Balen report looked into allegations of anti-Israeli bias related to the Israeli-Palestine conflict. It is thought to be damning in the extreme and certain BBC employees were shifted pdq as a result.

"Also gone is any notion that the UK is a democracy. IMO, it's not."

Love to hear that expanded so that there is meat on the bones to discuss. "Gone the notion that the UK is a democracy?" - compared to what? Certainly would agree with you in the case that 69 people drove this destructive, divisive, referendum through and inflicted it, I strongly believe, on the people of Scotland against their wishes. And no it will not be a divided nation for years, the harm done has been done and will remain as a vivid scar.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM

Some a you guys are a hoot and a half, inducing hearty laughter in my small cabin in your Colony of Canada. Shame that none of you called to wish me a Happy Canada Day, though. If you do, note the times of the two World Cup games as you shall only get as far as my answering thingywotsit (spg?).


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

If I understood what I saw on BBC news today,
A soon as the new Ukrainian President declared the cancellation of cease fire,
Separatist fighters were seen to be punching the air jumping for joy, and firing automatic rifles into the sky in reckless abandon...

FFS.. what, in the 21st century, is the warped mindset of these kinds of armed thugs who enjoy civil war,
death, and destruction
as a means of protesting discontent with the prevailng political order ???

errr.. Hello Scotland.. keeping check on fervent extremist numpties with access to shotguns.. eh.. ????


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:20 PM

Misty eyed bigots eh?

Surely none of those in Scotland?

Oh.

Well, none young enough or intelligent enough to be taken seriously.

It didn't escape me, the thought of what happens when idealist fools scream for independence. Just look at, when it used to happen, an old firm derby. Imagine those idiots getting access to guns and ideas?



Gnu. Happy Canada Day. Scotland day is every day, when the benefits cheques turn up courtesy of The Treasury in London.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

The great Bard Himsel' was nae separitist

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

And nae Jacobite either

Then let your schemes alone, in the state, in the state,
Then let your schemes alone in the state.
Then let your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun,
And leave a man undone, to his fate.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM

Triplane, you forgot the bit about " the ma no' independent mind"

Lyrics Jim McLean, tune The Beef Can Close

Oh Darling's got a brand new job,
He's Cameron's latest clown.
His hair is white, his eyebrows black,
And his nose is a dirty brown.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

Ed Miliband is Cameron's man,
He hates the SNP.
He'd rather see a Tory win,
Than Scotland standing free.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

There's Danny Alexander
With Osborn, Clegg and Balls.
For Dave's the puppet master
And they're all his dancing dolls.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

Gordon Brown wi the great big frown
Has joined the Tory crew.
Dave brought him from retirement
Saying "I have need of you!"
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.

Dave said "Go spread the message,
Just promise them years of pain.
You let me in the last time
And I know you'll do it again".
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.


Jo Lamont thinks we're stupid,
Ruth Davison thinks we're poor
Wee Wullie Rennie agrees with them
But he isnae really sure!
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.


Dave's even roped in Gallaway
Whose war cry is "say naw"
But if you vote for that lot,
Ye'll end up wi Hee Haw!
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.
Ricky doo dum day, ricky doo dum day,
Ricky dicky doo dum day.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:19 AM

Hilarious Jim.

Missed opportunity though. Imagine the fun you could have had with the empty Rob Roy promises of Salmond and the other dangerous dreamers?

Did The Proclaimers sing something about it?

BP no more
Investment no more
Markets no more
Cash for welfare no more

etc
Ad nauseum


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:53 AM

Musket, those lines were suggested by Joanne Lamont, the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland and I agree, she makes me sick too.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM

yes tri plane! but you gotta remember when Burns wrote that - it was the time of the French revolution and all its horrors. He could possibly talk to old people who remembered Jacobites being hung drawn and quartered. Peterloo, the Pentrich rioters - savage and horrible repressionin England.

Burns would not want to see his fellow Scots suffering again so terribly, at the hands of an England which didn't wear kid gloves..


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

I didn't know she had Jim. Still, great minds think alike. Do you hear that Al? Are you reading Bridge? I must be a bloody socialist after all!!

It's nothing to how sick people will be when they realise the implications of voting to become a small insignificant country with no trade ties, no money and no future.

Salmond is selling the future of British people to feed his fixation with a Hollywood vision of a nation that doesn't exist and in c21, has no reason to either.

Accepting British rules with a say in it before the referendum and being bound by them with no say after the referendum.

It isn't Salmond that concerns me, it's the surprisingly low intellect of those who will vote yes.

Unless of course, their intellect is sound but have been lied to for short term politics.

Fascinating.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM

Just curious; if Scotland becomes independent, what happens to control of the north sea oil?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

If Scotland becomes independant, will Nessie come out of hiding and accept a positiom as official mascot ?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM

Kendell, don't ask sensible questions, the answers will mostly puerile and 'humorously' anti Scottish.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

Is that why Salmond can't answer it then?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

Just catching up with Wimbledon. The British champion is two sets down and possibly about to be a Scottish loser.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM

Kendell, QED.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:22 PM

Luv the lyrics Jim. We all see things from a differentb perspective thats what makes life interesting. How about a song of equal quality
about the other side of the argument. :-)

Al .... you are of course correct " Ye Jacobites by name" says all those things to me and the attrocities were committed by the powers that had the biggest or best led armies who thought they could get away with it, sadly nothing changes.
"Its the same the whole world over,
Isnt it it a rotten shame ,
its the rich wot gets the pleasure
and the poor wot gets the blame"
And Rabbie Burns didnt write that one as far as I know but I could be wrong


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

I'm afraid I can't help with lyrics for "the other side" but maybe we agree on this, The Flight of the Lords.

Lords Wallace, McConnel, Lord Foulkes and Lord Reid
Those scroungers in ermine and those of that breed.
They sit in Westminster with nothing to say
But what would YOU do on three hundred a day?
Wi a toorily, oorily, oorily ay.

When Scotland is free, they'll be gone in a flash
They'll make for the border in an unholy dash.
Lord Haughey's big cheque book is not big enough
To keep all their Lordships big snouts in the trough.
Wi a toorily, oorily, oorily ay.

Wi their robes all a-flying they head for That Place
Deil tak the hindmost as onward they race
But after their scramble, through thick and through thin
The sensible English might not let them in.
Wi a toorily, oorily, oorily ay.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:08 AM

HM The Queen is in Scotland launching a new ship. The BBC reported how she was cheered by the shipyard workers but when Salmond came on the big screen to congratulate them, he was roundly booed.

Tell you what, if they offered the vote in Portsmouth, there would be a hell of a lot more Yes to Scottish independence votes...

Look on the bright side. When the referendum is defeated, it won't have cost much. As ever, English tax payers will pick up the tab through the back door, just as we do the welfare and public sector jobs.

You know what? Not a problem. The UK is for all, even if there are a few chippy buggers with nothing to be smug about in the northern counties.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:15 PM

O dear, barrel-scraping trolling


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM

A few buggered chippies? Hope you were referring to ex potato friaries and not builders who enjoy a bit of kinky hows-your-father. None of them oop North I'm sure!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 03:58 AM

Ah, you see Dave. When you and I hear Northern counties we think of the war of the roses, God's own county and black pudding ecky thump.

To a person of Scottish disposition it means anything above the central belt.

In this case I meant everything above Cumbria and Northumberland. After all , Al started this thread as a piss taking opportunity for the referendum.

That my financial calculations above are based on treasury reports and someone hiding behind "guest" just called me a troll for it, (irony being delicious at the best of times) just goes to prove how wildly irresponsible the yes camp can be. Salmond would be proud of someone calling facts and figures trollism.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 02:45 PM

ONE of Scotland's most respected economists has questioned the UK Treasury's oil and gas forecasts, arguing that Westminster's calculations are ill-informed and "wide of the mark".

The extent of Scotland's future energy revenues has become a key battleground in the independence debate.

Professor Sir Donald Mackay, a former chairman of Scottish Enterprise who advises Reform Scotland, a think-tank, said voters have been left confused by a welter of conflicting claims.

He says there is no hole in the Scottish government's oil predictions, as Danny Alexander, chief secretary to the Treasury, has claimed.

In a column written for this weekend's Sunday Times online, Mackay says there is evidence of a recovery in output over the next few years. This will be fuelled by North Sea investors enjoying 100% first year capital allowances against present business revenues. "Both rising output and a falling tax rate will result in rising tax revenues, provided
"Mackay says there is evidence of a recovery in output over the next few years. This will be fuelled by North Sea investors enjoying 100% first year capital allowances against present business revenues.

'Both rising output and a falling tax rate will result in rising tax revenues, provided of course that the oil price does not fall out of bed.'

Mackay points to official forecasts by Oil & Gas UK which suggest an independent Scotland's revenues in 2017-19 would be almost £32bn, double the £15.8bn forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility.

The OBR forecast implies that an independent Scotland, on a geographical share (90%) of UK oil and gas revenue in 2016-17 and 2018-19, would receive £15.8bn in tax revenues.

'Assuming DECC [Department of Energy and Climate Change] prices this would rise to £28.1bn,' says Mackay. 'Inserting the Oil & Gas UK production forecast raises this to £31.8bn.

If Danny [Alexander] looks at this he might conclude there is no hole in the Scottish government's oil predictions but there is a mountain of black gold missing from his.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM

We keep hearing of hard headed oilmen [in the business sense]. How does this square with the record investment in the north sea sector in the immediate past few years, when it was clearly stated in the present ruling parties" last manifesto that a referendum would be held during the term of this parliament.
Perhaps Muskets views are coloured by the financial loses he has made in Scotland, as mentioned in some of his postings above, it being part of some peoples makeup to blame everyone but themselves for the poor decisions that they have made, both financially and morally, in the present thread this appears to be any Scot who does not share his jaundiced view of what a nation should aspire to.
In the land of the champagne socialists [see the head of the NO campaign,"FLIPPER DARLING", he who "flipped" his residence four times between London and Scotland to keep himself in the style to which he had become accustomed to} people like Musket flourish and I have yet to see him condemn his fellow countrymen for the housing scam they succesfully worked for a number of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:47 PM

Gutcher....those arguments were just a bit too compressed.

Whilst you have my total agreement that the artist describing himself as Musket is to blame for everything, I don't know what you're on about.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:53 PM

what property deals have you been doing, Musket?

Musket....the man who is to capitalism what Rolf Harris is to childcare...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM

Losses? I will only make losses should property values fall over 50% ish and I decide to sell up. No. Scotland is a decent cash cow, thanks. Never been anything different. In fact, I am driving up next week to look at a few cottages in Anstruther that have come on the market. A German investor is selling his holiday lets and I may put an offer in.

No. I invest in Scotland and help the economy. What makes it delicious is when whinging gits say things like Gutcher just did. Nothing worth saying so make up some shit about losing money in Scotland. I might if and when IMF call it toxic should King Alex I get his Celtic tiger dream, but the people aren't that stupid. My investments are safe.

I have yet to condemn lots of people, mainly because they are not relevant to this thread. If you think Scottish MPs have a more altruistic approach than English ones, I'm afraid I can't help you. I can only deal in reality.

A Scottish bloke disagrees with the treasury figures? Not surprising as they often are less than fully accurate, but as they have the figures and Salmond doesn't, or refutes them without reading them, I repeat..

The people of Scotland need to have the facts presented before making a decision. Whilst ever we see contradiction by both sides, whilst ever Salmond says The UK and EU will change their stance whilst he will keep to his.... It is voting with a blindfold for short term personality politics. The future of Scotland is more important than a fool's ego.

No wonder he was booed the other day. No wonder.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:04 AM

Al Whittle. The man who is to music what Lord Franklin was to cartography.

If you sold a few more songs and got a few more gigs, you'd probably sink the proceeds into property too Al. Most successful heros of yours do.

The pathetic hypocrisy of chippy buggers who whine about the trials and tribulations of making a crust on the music threads whilst berating those who got off their arse in the BS threads are worthy of ridicule. I just provide it, that's all.

Our posts crossed it seems. Gutcher confused me by saying I had failed in something. I stopped failing in 1985 when I stopped having others decide my future and started ploughing my own furrow. Dunno what he is on about. I do rather well out of my Scottish investments. Having such a stake, I tend to also have my say and my say doesn't seem to strike resonance with romantic nationalism.

The songs above are wonderful eh? Did you know , North Korea has a satellite constantly broadcasting patriotic songs? It too reckons people respond to propaganda through music rather than analysis of information.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM

You want info on EU, here's some:

Agenda: Legal arguments that would keep Scotland in the EU after a Yes vote
Joanna Cherry
Wednesday 2 July 2014
In its White Paper the Scottish Government argued convincingly that an independent Scotland would remain a member of the EU after the legal route that is available under Article 48 of the Treaty of the EU.

Both Graham Avery, veteran EU negotiator and European Commission Honorary Director General, and Sir David Edward QC, former British judge at the European Court of Justice, support the plausibility of this route. It would be the UK Government's obligation to table a proposal for the amendment of treaties under Article 48 to take account of the fact Scotland had voted to become independent.

The other EU countries would require to agree to the amendment which effectively would mean that Scotland would continue to be a member state. They would be likely to do so for practical reasons. Scotland is EU's largest oil-producing nation, also boasting 25% of Europe's renewable energy potential. The Spanish fishing fleet, among others, fish extensively in Scottish waters. Is it really likely that the other member states of the EU would want to be deprived of the benefit of Scotland's oil, renewable energy potential and fishing stocks?

Lawyers for Yes consider there is a second powerful legal argument for Scotland's continuing EU membership after a Yes vote. This argument is based on the right of people living in Scotland to continuing EU citizenship. It also received support from Sir David in his evidence to Holyrood.

The argument runs as follows; Scotland is part of a member state and has been for more than 40 years. Accordingly, all the citizens of Scotland enjoy the benefits of EU citizenship. It would not be acceptable in terms of the EU treaties for Scotland's citizens to be stripped of EU citizenship and all rights that go with that status simply because they had exercised their right to self-determination in a legally constituted referendum. An expert on European Law, Aidan O'Neill QC, although not one of our number at Lawyers for Yes, has written: "The fact of continuing EU citizenship of the formerly British national residents of an independent Scotland seems to me to be a trump card in any negotiation for the territory of Scotland remaining within the EU, albeit now represented as a distinct Member State by an independent Scottish Government."

Two recent decisions of the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Justice lend support to this argument by asserting the importance of the status conferred on nationals of member states by the Union rules of citizenship. In C-135/08 Janko Rottmann v Freistaat Bayern, judgment of March 2, 2010 it was held that an Austrian man who had moved to Germany to avoid criminal prosecution could not have his German naturalisation cancelled if that would leave him stateless and deprive him of EU citizenship. In Case 34/09 Ruiz Zambrano v Belgium, judgment of March 8, 2011, the court held that Colombian parents of children born in Belgium and who were Belgian citizens could not be deprived of their right to remain in Belgium given their status as parents of EU citizens.

The Court concluded that national measures cannot deprive EU citizens of the "genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of their status as citizens of the union". Lawyers for Yes therefore believe that, according to law, Scottish citizens cannot have their European citizenship suddenly withdrawn. We also believe that, no matter how long the negotiations take for Scotland to become a full member state, Scotland will not find itself outside the EU.

If there is a Yes Vote, it follows, both as a matter of law and realpolitik, that Scotland will not be taken out of Europe against the wishes of her people. By contrast, in the event of a No vote, there is a very real possibility this will happen if David Cameron has a mandate to hold an in-out referendum. Such an eventuality seems increasingly likely after Ukip's first place in the European elections in England and the UK Government's histrionics over Jean-Claude Juncker's appointment as President of the European Commission.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM

Err.. That's a SNP political opinion paper. It cannot be a White Paper in the legal sense as it inflicts legislative commitments that no independent Scottish government can enact. Add the legal opinion they received regarding the paper that you conveniently forgot to mention. It cannot be put to parliament for adoption.

You can't wave that at intelligent people, it is fodder for idealists.

Next.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:34 AM

Al.
The amount of investment in the North Sea oil industry since the Scottish election of 2011 has been widely reported.

Mr A. Darling, the front man for the No campaign in Scotland, changed his address from London to Edinburgh on four occasions when C.O.E., also widely reported. This I understand is called "flipping"

The Muskets nom-de-plume is derived from a hawk, in his case I would say as in one of our old saws "A hawk out of a bad nest".
It would not surprise me if he resembled the Laird of the Ettrick Shaws descendents and they
did not own a furr of ground in the hail of braid Scotland.

Check out the story of the laird of the Ettrick Shaws in the archives of the S.o S.S. in Edinburgh.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM

Musket, the article was written by Joanna Cherry QC, a former lead counsel for Scotland's Lord Advocate.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM

My comment was written by a professor.

Next.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:53 AM

No EU Membership
No EFTA Membership
No NATO Membership
No Currency Union

The referendum to be held on the 18th September 2014, the one that the SNP wanted to hold in 2010 illustrates their total lack of preparedness demonstrates how unfit for purpose this crowd of second raters actually are.

If I was given the task of trying to persuade any group of people to choose one course of action or another I would at least have the commonsense to work out in detail the answers to what would generally be perceived as being the important questions, so that when asked I could give answers that anyone in that group of people could independently verify.

The SNP's approach? Trust us it will alright on the night? Take our word for it. What they are asking the electorate of Scotland to do is to buy a pig in a poke.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

well of course they are.

at least the pigs still in the poke - no one really knows what it will be like. there is the distinct possibility that it will be a nice pig.

the alternative is that you put up with the likes of Musket, this man clearly knows everything, he's a professor,

who are you going with - Sherlock the pig in the sack, or Professor Moriarty.
personally I'd go with the pig every time ....better manners!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

I've never been to Scotland, is it any good ?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:08 PM

Better than knowing fuck all Al.

Mind you, they do say it is bliss.

The naivety of peddling a paper by someone with both feet in the yes camp, who professionally gives views for a living isn't exactly objective evidence. Hence pointing out it is about as useful as me knowing a bit about something unrelated or Al knowing what an upside down mix is. (They don't have them where he lives now.)

Mind you, I do have manners. Something Al is increasingly forgetting these days. Probably his age...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

Any road up!

You started this thread suggesting accommodation in Scotland was crap!

If you don't mind fending for yourselves, some bloody good cottages hint hint.. Cottages4u have a few. Kingussie, Aviemore, Fife villages perhaps? Howsabout Oban?

No need for Ramada. Just leave the place spotless. Good cleaners don't fall off tossed cabers.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

An independent Scotland's membership of the European Union should be assured with a smooth and straightforward transition process after a Yes vote, a legal expert has claimed.

Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott, a professor of European and human rights law at Oxford University, also argued that Scotland need not go through "a cumbersome accession process as a new member state" and instead could become an EU member by treaties being amended.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM

ould become an EU member by treaties being amended.

Could is the key word there, Jim. Not WILL but COULD. There is no certainty as people have been saying all along. Salmond is gambling with a whole nation. I certainly would not back him.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:43 PM

Think veto.

Think Catalonia.

Think precedent.

Hang on, I'll ask a legal expert..

Rover?!

Woof?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:51 PM

SCOTS can expect to remain ­British citizens if they vote for independence, the UK Government has conceded.
From the Home Office:

In its latest analysis of the consequences of independence, focusing on borders and citizenship, it says it is likely that Scots would be able to hold dual Scottish and British nationality.

The next generation of Scots would also be British, the paper suggests, as children inherit citizenship under present UK rules.

Their children would not be British, as British citizens outside the UK cannot pass on their citizenship more than one generation.

As British citizens, Scots would keep their existing passports and continue to qualify for UK consular help abroad.


Holders of British passports would also be EU citizens according to EU rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

its just a matter of common sense. England has never had Scotland's interests at heart. its never been more than an afterthought.

Scotland needs government that puts Scotland first. you could say the same for the entire north of England. And Cornwall.

These should be prosperous places. Instead they are neglected.

Nothing is going to change unless the Scottish people get up there and take control. no one is going to change the attitude of a government that have had three centuries to behave better, but choose not to -time after time.

membership of the EU , currency....... this is just so much administrative guff.
the main point is - stay away from serial abusers. don't walk away ....run!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:39 AM

Jim lots of EU citizens live in non-EU countries that does not make the country they live in eligible for EU membership.

Uncomfortable facts that get in the way of your Prof's train of thought:

The country that joined the Common Market in the 1970s was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Should Scotland be idiotic enough to leave the United Kingdom in 2016 then the United Kingdom as an entity does not disappear it will still exist to all intent and purpose. It was the United Kingdom that has been the national entity that has signed up to all subsequent EU treaties and agreements - So as far as the EU is concerned Scotland as a nation simply does not exist and as such cannot be considered a member.

Any country that is offered membership must go through strict and rigorous procedures and it must meet certain criteria. This takes time and without a recognised currency backed by some form of formal currency union independent Scotland must start at the bottom of that ladder, exactly as Lithuania had to.

Any country having gone through that "cumbersome accession process" then has to gain the unanimous consent of all existing members before being granted membership. Musket mentions "Catalonia", well Spain is not alone, excluding the United Kingdom, I can think of at least six other EU member states who in voting in their own national interest would block independent Scotland from becoming a member.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:07 AM

The Treaty of Rome gives power of veto. This, as per the treaty and subsequent ones gives such power to individual states in order to prevent floodgates of small sections of countries from demanding entry. The original concern was the thought of Italy splitting up with a rich member in the North and a much poorer southern neighbour being a drain on all members rather than a drain on Italy.

Of course present and next generation Scots will hold UK passports. Thousands being born in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, USA etc etc have that status. Nothing special there.

I repeat. I may be taking the piss but I'm not in the same league as Salmond and his dangerous adventure. It's one thing to campaign for a better deal for your region , it's another to go it alone with no guarantees of what the future holds but plenty of messages out there about what it doesn't.

If I were living there and voting, I'd look at what OPEC are saying before basing GDP on a single industry in which your price is decided in The Middle East by a committee of sheiks and Texans.

Or at least, for the next few years.

Which reminds me, I wonder how long McSweens haggis lasts in the freezer? Might become a rising investment soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:55 AM

More detail:
Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott, a professor of European and human rights law at Oxford University, has added her voice to those legal experts who believe Scotland would retain EU membership post-independence.

She said: "Despite assertions to the contrary from UK lawyers, EU lawyers and EU officials, any future independent Scotland's EU membership should be assured, and its transition from EU membership qua part of the UK to EU membership qua independent Scotland relatively smooth and straightforward.

"It would take the form of an internal enlargement of the EU using the procedure for treaty amendment in Article 48. These arguments are made on the basis of EU law itself, which, it is argued, provide all the resources necessary to assure an independent Scotland's EU membership through EU treaty amendment, and not through a cumbersome accession process as a new member state."


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

The Guardian, 5th July, 2014

UK ministers and pro-UK party leaders have repeatedly warned that the Royal Navy will no longer award major warship contracts to Scottish yards if there is a yes vote because it never builds warships outside the UK. ..................

Meanwhile, Hammond confirmed to the Guardian that work on fitting out the Queen Elizabeth and on building a second carrier, the Prince of Wales, would continue at Rosyth even if Scotland did vote yes in September.

So? Scotland will not get to build UK warships ...... But then again, YES.

More threats exploded.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:13 AM

Still doesn't hold water Jim.

Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty sub-para 4 states:

"The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."

And that independent Scotland is not likely to get.

Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty sub-para 7 states:

"Any initiative taken by the European Council on the basis of the first or the second subparagraph shall be notified to the national Parliaments. If a national Parliament makes known its opposition within six months of the date of such notification, the decision referred to in the first or the second subparagraph shall not be adopted."


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

'
UK ministers and pro-UK party leaders have repeatedly warned that the Royal Navy will no longer award major warship contracts to Scottish yards if there is a yes vote because it never builds warships outside the UK. ..................'

well okay. why not. this is what its about. its not as though English shipyards are doing that well.

lets see where the apples fall. but I reckon the first thing the Scottish government should be on to is chucking out the English landlords who obtained vast tracts of land in a very questionable style in the clearances.

still its up to them. I reckon they could make it work. big place, virtually uninhabited, plenty of land undeveloped. adjacent to a country where you can't buy a litre of petrol without being overtaxed. also theres a lot of yank expatriats, who would maybe like to refloat their mother country - like they did with Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:21 AM

"UK ministers and pro-UK party leaders have repeatedly warned that the Royal Navy will no longer award major warship contracts to Scottish yards if there is a yes vote because it never builds warships outside the UK"

Perfectly correct and I think the warships being referred to here are the new Type 26 Frigates - If Scotland votes for independence they will be built in England or in Northern Ireland.

" Hammond confirmed to the Guardian that work on fitting out the Queen Elizabeth and on building a second carrier, the Prince of Wales, would continue at Rosyth even if Scotland did vote yes in September."

Again perfectly correct as they are existing contracts that would cost too much to cancel plus the fact that construction of the Prince of Wales at Rosyth relies on the Chinese crane on loan to the Yard.

Big Al, so pleased that you see fit to advocate the transfer of jobs away from your native country merely on the premise that English yards aren't very good - Thatcher said the same about coal, yet you castigated her for it.

"I reckon the first thing the Scottish government should be on to is chucking out the English landlords who obtained vast tracts of land in a very questionable style in the clearances."

Ah a Mugabe style land grab eh? That would of course do wonders for any foreign investment the new Scottish Government might like to attract.

As for rich Scottish expats? Any rumours yet of Shurr Shawn leafing through Estate Agents literature? Indeed any talk of him returning his knighthood?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:28 AM

Yeah, I'm so scared of Salmond's Zimbabwe style threats, I am in Scotland to increase my property portfolio later this week. Or invest in Scotland as less chippy people call it.

If I had any doubt as to his threats meaning anything, I would be having a sale on, no low bid limit. Instead, I have confidence in a British Scottish counties.

Do you recall the shipyard workers booing him on the big screen when HM The Queen launched the ship last week? She was referred to as Queen Elizabeth II not I for that matter.

The Guardian, as you mention them, conducted a poll recently and most 16 year olds hadn't heard of William Wallace and Jacobean seemed to be a furniture style.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM

"but I reckon the first thing the Scottish government should be on to is chucking out the English landlords who obtained vast tracts of land in a very questionable style in the clearances."

Well, perhaps the Irish should throw out all the Scot plantation owners? The Scots should throw out the Lairds who happily fucked over their own people? Where does it end? Ethnic cleansing? Nice.

The people of these islands have long been fucked over by the rich, and continue to be so. From the highland clearances to the Acts of Enclosure the ordinary people have been treated like utter shite for millennia. Even our higher caste Celtic ancestors treated ordinary folk (that's us) no better than slaves.

The real issue here is there is no trickle down of wealth in the nationless global economy of today. No country in the world can stop the uber-rich from taking huge amounts of cash offshore and out of any particular nation's economy. Cash does not roll downhill, in this respect Thatcherite capitalism has failed utterly (see here, for example).

There is no way as a people we can stop this if we are divided, and be sure this point is not lost in the boardroom of the anti-national corporations of the world; for them any further division of the workforce is to be welcomed. You have to wonder why the NO campaign has been so utterly ineffective, or even had the opposite effect of its campaign aims.

If I were Scottish I'd vote yes simply to get rid of the corruption and influence of Westminster, but it's naive to believe that somehow Scotland has managed to grow a crop of politicians that are any different to those in the rest of the world and are going to work tirelessly for the people and not the vested interests who stand to earn in any way they can from the labours of ordinary British folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

An article in the defence publication Jane's with widespread coverage in other business press has once again highlighted the long term security for naval shipbuilding on the River Clyde following a Yes vote in September.

In the article, Geoff Searle, BAE Systems' Type 26 Global Combat Ship programme director, said the company was only looking at a 'single site' solution to build the next generation of warships and that all of their planning is 'based on the assumption that we will build at the revamped Scotstoun facility' on the Clyde.

Mr Searle made clear that BAE Systems had 'no plan B' for the build of Type 26 elsewhere in the United Kingdom' if there is a Yes vote - reflecting the fact that they are ending shipbuilding capacity at Portsmouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

Ehmmm Mr. McLean, the go-ahead for the Type 26 Frigate is being held over until after the referendum vote.

At that point Geoff Searle, BAE Systems' Type 26 Global Combat Ship programme director will be told in no uncertain terms that those vessels will be built in the UK not in an independent Scotland. The UK has NEVER had a single vessel built for the Royal Navy in a foreign yard and they will not depart from that doctrine.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

I repeat:

Mr Searle made clear that BAE Systems had 'no plan B' for the build of Type 26 elsewhere in the United Kingdom' if there is a Yes vote - reflecting the fact that they are ending shipbuilding capacity at Portsmouth.

So, Teribus, either in Scotland or not at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:53 AM

In any event, BAE are not expecting rash stupidity. They are giving the people of Scotland credit for a bit of common sense.

In the meantime, BP are, according to The FT, acquiring bits of planning permission for the land they bought on the coast in Northumberland. You see, it isn't which 90 mile or whatever square of the North Sea has the field, it is where it gets landed, as the Norwegian gas industry realised years ago. BP need to land it within The EU in order to sell it in The EU without tariff. The risks surrounding uncertainty in an independent Scotland are not in the interest of multi national companies. Oh, and a lot of executive style houses for sale around Aberdeen, as most top executives at BP are relocating to their Sunbury HQ near London.

The sooner this referendum is out of the way, the sooner the people of Scotland can wake up to the irresponsible reckless harm the nationalists have caused the country they say they try to protect.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

In August 2011 it was reported that the UK Government, together with BAE Systems, was considering entering into partnership with the Indian MoD and private defence shipyards in India to jointly design and build the Type 26/Global Combat Ship.[25]


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

The Chairman of BP – Carl-Henric Svanberg has made clear that a Yes vote for Scottish Independence would not have "any major implications long-term" and stressed that "our commitment to the North Sea certainly continues."

The confirmation of BP's continued commitment to the North Sea comes after Norwegian oil giant announced that it is to invest £4.3 billion in the North Sea creating 700 jobs in the process, including 200 onshore jobs in Aberdeen.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM

"Mr Searle made clear that BAE Systems had 'no plan B' for the build of Type 26 elsewhere in the United Kingdom' if there is a Yes vote - reflecting the fact that they are ending shipbuilding capacity at Portsmouth.

So, Teribus, either in Scotland or not at all."


Nope Jim, the choice facing Mr Searle will be build them where we tell you or you will not build them at all. In that case BAE will build them where they are told to build them and decisions relating to Portsmouth could easily be reversed.

"In August 2011 it was reported that the UK Government, together with BAE Systems, was considering entering into partnership with the Indian MoD and private defence shipyards in India to jointly design and build the Type 26/Global Combat Ship"

Perfectly correct it is highly likely that Type 26 Frigates will be built for Australia, Brazil and India. Those being built for Australia and Brazil would be built in the UK along with those being built for the Royal Navy, while there would be no problem at all with India building their Type 26's in India.

The one place they will not be built is in independent Scotland. The decision to award the contract will be political as much as anything else.

If Scotland votes YES on the 18th September 2014, then no Government or political party in their right mind will sign all that work away to a foreign country with a UK General Election happening in late spring early summer 2015 - to allow that work to go "abroad" would be political suicide - same thing goes for the Currency Union that Jowly Eck says will happen - absolute political poison for any UK political party.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

Yes, they are committed to The North Sea. But just read your quote from the Chairman again. This time, actually read what he said. Then read what his Chief Executive said..

The Northumberland base may not be needed, but if it is, it demonstrates that an independent Scotland would not have "any major implications" and shows their "commitment to The North Sea."

In any event, Reckless Alex would give them unsupportable tax breaks in order to keep some Aberdeen operations going, so some of the jobs would remain. Just won't pay the welfare, health and social care bills...

Joking apart, I'm not in either camp. I don't want to keep propping up Scottish social costs if there is some bugger else willing to do it. I don't care who runs the bloody place. It has a Parliament anyway. I genuinely don't think the voters have enough information in order to give an informed vote. I also think a stable region of a stable country wanting independence is a laughing stock in these global economy times.

If Scotland were a business, (and in some respects it is,) it would fall foul of the recommendations of The Higgs Report 2003, requiring non executive directors to be familiar with sufficient facts and figures to cast an informed vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM

It really is quite amazing that neither of you can make comments without making derogatory remarks about Alex Salmond. I am not a member of the SNP but you really are quite puerile and demean your arguments somewhat.
I expect when a YES vote is returned pragmatism will take over after all the threats and program Fear are dead.
At the moment the MoD use a French firm to supply periscopes and submarine equipment and a German firm to install communication systems. "Follow the money" the man said and BT, as a global company, won't find working in Scotland undue difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

"I genuinely don't think the voters have enough information in order to give an informed vote."

EXACTLY - I couldn't agree more

"At the moment the MoD use a French firm to supply periscopes and submarine equipment and a German firm to install communication systems.

Nothing wrong with any of that the MoD acts on behalf of the British Government (EU Member State) to purchase equipment from two other EU Member States


"Follow the money" the man said and BT, as a global company, won't find working in Scotland undue difficult.

Apart from the fact that Scotland will not be an EU member state - will it.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:33 AM

You think Salmond is leading this without party gain in mind?

What was that tripe about Westminster politicians all being cads and bounders and all those North of the border genuine and trustworthy??

King Alex I of Scotland and The Kingdom of Fife. He'll probably end up deploying troops to the ethnic British enclaves of Ellon and Avimore. UN forces will declare Balmoral a neutral zone.

No matter, plenty of Dutch tourists for my holiday lets and Norwegian students for the Edinburgh tenements, regardless of what happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:35 AM

ITALY has effectively declared the European Union's neutrality on Scottish independence as it takes over the bloc's rotating presidency.

The country's European Affairs minister, Sandro Gozi, warned anything said by Brussels officials could be manipulated and said the vote should be up to Scots.

His remarks, couched in ­diplomatic language, mark a clear departure from the stance of former European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, who said it would be difficult if not impossible for Scotland to rejoin the bloc.

Mr Gozi, a former EC official and diplomat, said: "We are not worried by the referendum in Scotland and we have no position on it because they are responsible for deciding their own future.

"We don't believe it is necessary for the European Union to take an official decision in advance and we don't want to have any kind of influence. We don't want to say anything because any word could be manipulated."


He should just ask Teribus, he knows the answer and by the way, Teribus, England might not be an EU member soon, if Cameron and Farage have their way.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Of course The EU aren't interfering. It is a matter for a nation state member's internal affairs.

What has that got to do with anything? The EU cannot comment on an application when there is no country and it hasn't applied! Member states can though, including comment from Spain, on record.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:42 AM

And why won't the UK government ask? Surlely that would end some uncertainty.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:44 PM

If they did, you'd be whinging that they were trying to fetter a vote they agreed the terms of.

Anyway, it isn't a question of law, so no point in asking. It is when an application is forwarded, there is a process to follow and to preempt that process would be to undermine the whole membership system.

That's why Salmond can't ask either.

Or assert he knows the answer for that matter.....


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

This is all getting rather silly, no sensible debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:52 AM

And that attitude is what is scary. If enough voters follow the Dylan Thomas maxim of "there are none so blind as those who will not see" Scotland might walk into a disastrous future, all in the name of Rob Roy idealism.

Surely the education system has sown enough seeds to prevent such reckless action? What concerns me is that Cameron only agreed to it on that basis, and his judgement hasn't been seen to be his best asset lately...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:08 AM

As far as I am aware, absentee landlords do not have a vote.
You have no emotional stake in the future of Scotland Ian, you are only interested in protecting your investments.

I hope the first truly Scottish government makes you and your kind squirm.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM

Judging by Salmond's excellent track record on promoting equality, I reckon you and your kind will be doing the squirming.

Everybody in The UK has a stake. The people physically residing in Scotland get a vote, (you do not qualify for a vote by being Scottish, I thought I'd just point that out,) and the rest of The UK has a right to influence, comment and point out folly.

I have an emotional stake and I am not just interested in protecting my investment. Please take that back, worm.

No?

The Scottish government has been attracting investment and I assume a hypothetical independent one will too. SNP say they will at any rate. Looks like I will get to squirm alright. Squirm with delight when I complete on three more Fife cottages later this week. I am investing in Scotland. Irrelevant pipsqueaks like you should be grateful, not bitter. Anyway, train to Waverley tomorrow morning, on to St Andrews, get my pen out, have a nice night in one of my favourite hotels drinking with my youngest who is coming up with me, back on Friday. You can't stay there too long in case you bump into one of the 0.0001% similar to Akenaton.

Oh, you can't help being bitter. My mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:42 PM

From Dougie McLean's excellent album "Indigenous", the song "Thundering in" relates the unsympathetic attitude shown to Scottish history, culture and people, by the money rich, emotionally starved, invaders from the South.

"Thundering in"




You found chances in this place
To build upon your affluence and build upon your grace
You'd have come sooner if you'd known
Now you're brushing up the velvet and the beads upon your throne

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering

Once the old ones used to meet
With stories told before the fire the whisky tasted sweet
You did not want them to be seen
Now you're polishing the vinyl on your video machine

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering

How can you repay them for stealing their pride?
For stealing the place that they keep deep inside?

So you'll move these ancient stones
You'll cut away these green and spreading towers that have grown
And when we ask you where they've gone
Well, you polish your excuses for the made man must move on

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM

The great man himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

Bad link try this one
Dougie McLean


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

lovely track Ake! thanks for that!

he sounds young but he can't be. Caledonia must have been thirty years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

Thank you Al, and thanks for your support on this thread, folks with your attitude will always be welcome here.

Indigenous is a great album, "Eternity" makes me greet with pride.
Take a listen on the free site I linked to.....I already have the album, before Ian starts moaning. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM

Golf..

Freudian from a certain perspective.

Cracking good night here in St Andrews. Just awaiting Musket Jnr in the bar and let celebrations commence.

Out of interest, I am half listening to a conversation between a few men about the referendum. (They are the other side of the bar to me as I sit on a barstool minding my business but listening really.) They too are taking the piss out of the "wacky and repugnant at the same time" (to quote one) nationalists. Interestingly, they seem to have Scottish accents.

Such a nice corner of The UK here, except for the fucking golfers.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 05:27 PM

Dougie McLean "Eternity"


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM

Let's hear ya!! Dougie McLean and guests "Caledonia"


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

by the money rich, emotionally starved, invaders from the South.


What a load of shite. Everyone south of the border is emotionally starved and money rich now? All those above are loving paupers? You really do need to get a deep fried pie to eat with that massive chip, ake.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM

Grow up Dave, who said EVERYONE from the South was "money rich and emotionally starved"? ;0).... You've been studying Ian's M O, haven't you Dave.

The people from the South of England who buy houses up here on the West Coast are very much like that....as Dougie says, they come thundering in, not a clue about Scottish culture or how we do things.

Remember, in my lifetime Gaelic was still spoken in many places as a first language.
Our culture is slowly being eroded by the "Southern rain"

To be quite blunt Dave, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about....How could you know?
I live in the same house that my grandfather lived in, almost 70 years of getting to understand the Scottish psychology, watching my boyhood friends turn into grandparents, the huge struggle to live when times were really hard, communal life as it aught to be and above all a sense of being Scottish before all else

Now "the way is clear", time to throw off the shackles of a government which does not represent Scotland in any shape or form.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM

And you ended up understanding the British psychology.

Fucking priceless.

I don't know which Scotland you rattle on about but the one I know is far more tolerant, inclusive and respectful of others than how you cone across.

They should stuff you and put you in a museum.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

They don't have to know how "we" do things. They tend to know how "they" do things.

If you lived in our village, would you go to the Sikh family in the house down the road and tell them to start putting ferrets down their trousers and force them to believe Geoff Boycott was a better cricketer than Monty Panesar?

No problem whatsoever with wistful nostalgia, but when it is used to scorn those living nearby who have every right to live in their homes in the way they wish, it becomes something else.

And that something else isn't a trait of being Scottish either. We have bigoted fools down here too. We apologise for them and ignore them, a bit like decent Scottish people do you.






Comparing an opening batsman to a spin bowler isn't a good comparison, but it'll do. Ok, Boycott, for all his faults was the best opening batsman ever. It's just that the bugger knows it.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:03 PM

To be quite blunt Dave, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about....How could you know?

You have one hell of a brass neck. You have no idea whatsoever about my background. Not that it is anything to do with you but I am the son of a Polish immigrant. If you think the Scots had it bad, what do you think happened in Poland in 1939? What do you think happened when the Communists moved in? OK, that is nothing to do with me, but what do you think it feels like that your family could NOT have been in the same house 70 years?

You really should engage your brain before putting your mouth in gear.

Arsehole

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM

I suppose it will be "Thick C**t next, my you are a quick learner Dave. Ian must be very proud.
Your family background has nothing to do with this thread, I knew very well you were from Polish stock. You have mentioned it many times.
Nothing at all against Polish people, but I feel we should be training our young folks rather than encouraging economic migrants.
"To make us competitive in the global market place".....remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM

Dougie McLean a "bigoted fool" you must be joking Ian.

Did you see the array of folk talent behind him echoing his sentiments, do you think Gaughan would support a bigot?

Typical ideological nonsense. The whole of our socio-economic system is built on inequality.....A Scottish government will address some of the REAL inequalities, like the disgusting wealth gap.
Do you really think poor people have an equal chance..... in anything?
If you do, you are an even bigger fool than your posts suggest.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:01 PM

Nothing at all against Polish people, but I feel we should be training our young folks rather than encouraging economic migrants.

Economic migrants? Like my Dad who was injured at Monte Casino? Like his Dad who was beaten by Russian guards that badly that he died a broken man? Like my Grandmother who walked the 700 miles back home with 2 children, living off what she could find in fields or beg from people?

Says it all really doesn't it.

Funnily enough, I have just been speaking to a good friend of over 40 years, Scottish though and through. Her family have owned the same farm for over 200 years.

What does she think of independence. Well, I am not going to be quite verbatim but the gist was,

"Fucking council house patriots. Pissed all day on benefits and talking about freedom. Hope they do get independence. I will move out and leave the country to go bankrupt."

Or words to that effect.

I don't particularly like the word cunt either. You are still an arsehole.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

"do you think Gaughan would support a bigot?"

He once told me that if the English want their independence, they should be allowed to have it.

Folk artistes do tend to be romantic fools at the best of times. Hence protest and hard luck stories forming many songs. Mine tend to be about shagging or the lack of shagging, take your pick.

A Scottish government will be a government. An independent government would also be a government but without the free prescriptions and tuition fees as they will be the first luxury to go.

Poor people do have an equal chance. Your chances are based on your intelligence and wit every bit as much as your background. I went from the bailiffs asking me to choose between the pram and pushchair for my baby after the strike in 1985 to selling up my business interests for a few million as my 40th birthday treat, having picked up a gong on the way. Later became a government advisor and visiting professor at a medical school over two universities. My sons, sons of a miner if you want to be romantic about it went to a school with an awful reputation and poor attainment. By their own endeavour, one is a director of a large company with all the trimmings and the other has a PhD and is presently in California designing the next generation of microprocessors.

Yes. I do think poor people have an equal chance. You just have to see further than the mist over the loch and treat people as you find them, not how you distrust or fear them.

End of sermon.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM

What has your family background got to do with this thread?

""Fucking council house patriots. Pissed all day on benefits and talking about freedom." and who destroyed their jobs and "parked" them on incapacity......Westminster government of course much cheaper than retraining, especially if we can get loads of Poles and Eastern Europeans to work under price.

The young chap I spoke to told me, even on under minimum wage he can earn three or four times(in real terms) what he can in Poland.
Where's the equality in that.....but we must be competitive....eh what?

Latest poll, shows increased support for Independence!!

Last nights debates on TV illustrated the problem of English Nationals living in Scotland, they were over represented in the debates and every one was against Independence......Hypocrites.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

"
Poor people do have an equal chance. Your chances are based on your intelligence and wit every bit as much as your background. I went from the bailiffs asking me to choose between the pram and pushchair for my baby after the strike in 1985 to selling up my business interests for a few million as my 40th birthday treat, having picked up a gong on the way. Later became a government advisor and visiting professor at a medical school over two universities. My sons, sons of a miner if you want to be romantic about it went to a school with an awful reputation and poor attainment. By their own endeavour, one is a director of a large company with all the trimmings and the other has a PhD and is presently in California designing the next generation of microprocessors."

Is that supposed to prove poor people have an equal chance?
You don't know anything about real life, do you?
It isn't about the poor boy who made good, that's a sop, a fairy tale of Capitalism. I have been in hell, sinks of drug abuse, generations of joblessness. Helpless hopeless people, living in worse conditions than animals.......it is an underclass and it's growing fast...the pitchforks are coming unless people like you alter your self satisfied stance.
You are a sad case Ian, I'm truly sorry for you, but I don't think you deserve it.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM

The harder I worked the luckier I was.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM

Westminster government of course much cheaper than retraining, especially if we can get loads of Poles and Eastern Europeans to work under price.

Can you not understand it at all? It is the EU that allows such freedoms. Not the knobs at Westminster. You know the ones, those that Salmond says he will stick with. The ones that will likely say no because of people like you.

As to what anyone's family background has to do with it.

I live in the same house that my grandfather lived in, almost 70 years

Arsehole and hypocrite.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

Of all the times I have said that you can't educate pork , this is about as good as it gets.

Mind you, I am only bothering looking at Mudcat because the restaurant is bring slow and Mrs Musket has gone outside for a Worky type call.

I suppose the reason why I bother with the worm in the first place is this;

I have travelled throughout the globe. Seen the golden rivet if you will. I have experienced things I don't even mention. I have been fortunate in seeing the fruits of my endeavour but don't believe in coincidence. I have seen and spoken with people for whom freedom actually has meaning...,,,

But the thought that a sad bitter old failure has got it into his head that a yes vote means he can carry on failing and blaming others yet somehow do better off ?

At least if he had less hate in his head, he could stop blaming innocent people for his own failures.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

I'm an outside American who hopes to visit Scotland. I am probably a little biased as I write this because I'm listenin to the Classical Station and currently playing is a lovely piano concerto based on variations of "Rule Brittania". . .(The Rand Variation by Ferdinant Raes)
ANyhow, I can see an argument for Scotland remaining with the U.K. should the U.K. maintain its independence from Europe. Scotland already has a membership in the European Union and as a member of the U. K. life is administratively easier and a Scot can dream of being head of the U. K. government and culture can mix more or less freely with less bureaucracy.

On the other hand, should the U.K. join the E. U. as a full member, adopt the Euro, etc. why shouldn't Scotland want to be and equal member of the E. U. to England, hence independent of it?

Overall, I am tending with the NO voters because I think bigger democracies are stronger and better for all concerned, the more that divisiveness is fostered, the better for the plutocrats who can turn governments against each other and take advantage of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:56 AM

My background has everything to do with this thread, as it shows I have a real stake in how this country is governed, my family have put their lives into making our country, now we want self determination and a government which represents the Scottish people.

What happens in Poland has nothing to do with this thread and does not equate in any way.

" 70 years I've been a fucking sad failure."   :0)
Look Ian, I am respected for my work and integrity, over a wide area of this country, I feel blessed to be in this position.
I am needed, if I were to die tomorrow, I would be missed by a large number of people. I am fortunately able to help people under stress, to take away their problems, keep them dry and warm.
I put myself on a par with a REAL doctor....a GP for stone and timber.

Oh we have pen pushers and "gobbledy gook" manufacturers in the building trade, just like you , but fortunately they don't get loose very often to fuck up peoples lives. They are overpaid for doing their pointless jobs, to keep the Capitalist pay differentials in place and ensure the rich or "lucky" retain their power.

Hopefully the new Scotland, will be able to address the real problems in society and if they fail to do so, they will be our "failures" and will answer to us.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:19 AM

Your attitude is typical of many in this respect. (Your attitude is thankfully rare in how your bigotry clouds your thoughts.).

Governments don't make equality of opportunity, people do. Parents, teachers, youth leaders, elder siblings. Role models make equal opportunity. Your incessant whinging about governments being to blame is misplaced and if people listened, unhelpful.

Yes, you are a builder. Congratulations. I'm an electrician. So what? That it is many years since I was on a coal face is neither here nor there. If people want to get on and they have 80% effort and 20% luck, they will, regardless of who sits in Westminster, Holyrood or the local council offices.

The students I teach (two days a month, I'm not a full time prof) come from all backgrounds and the only influence government decisions make are about being saddled with more debt at the end of it coupled with lower pay for doctors compared to even ten years ago. But you know what? It doesn't worry them because they are getting on with it rather than crying about how the government doesn't spoon feed them.

You whinge about English people living next door. They don't whinge when a foreign junior doctor gets a training number and they don't. They just say they have to try harder next time. This university is sited in one of the most poverty stricken cities in The UK.



Your self assurance that a Scottish government with or without the safety net of The UK will sing to your bitter tune is more than misguided, it's delusional.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM

When you say you are like a GP, does that mean you take one look at a job and refer them to a specialist?

By the way, just to correct something you said. If a GP is a "real doctor" he or she is one of only 18% (GMC annual report 2013) of medical doctors who are "real doctors." Without denigrating the profession, medical doctors hold the title as a honorary one. The only degree qualification necessary to register as a foundation doctor is a double bachelors, medicine and surgery. As in many trades, some go on to conduct research for which they can go for a MD (medical only) or PhD, like I and my youngest did in engineering physics.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM

Musket! I really feel sorry for you. somehow you seem to have metamormorhised (I know its not the real word, but God knows what it should be) into Norman Tebbit.

I mean! Just look at the tone of that last post! its SO judgemental!

for fuck's sake, buy a kaftan, and go to India like the Beatles did, or something...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM

I got lessons in being judgemental by reading your posts on the subject of getting gigs etc.

No Al. You are missing my point. Whilstever the doom mongers keep bleating about how it's everybody's fault but theirs, kids might start believing them. It's the worst thing you can do.

Akenaton said that poor people don't have a chance and then said I know nothing about life. That's judgemental. I merely blew it into the water.

I do have a bike, and after the strike, I got on the fucker and went for an interview for a job with prospects. So did many others.

The last post by me was in reply to his pathetic sneer. You think I like getting on my high horse? It's bad enough that he is a sad bitter bigoted individual, but when every post he comes out with brings people down, says we are all going to hell in a hand cart.

Are we fuck.

Unless we are steering the pony's arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM

"Now "the way is clear", time to throw off the shackles of a government which does not represent Scotland in any shape or form."

Sorry to attempt to disabuse you of the notion of Scottish superiority, but there are plenty of Scots in Westminster. I assume you think these people have become corrupted by the evil English down south, that somehow they have gone native? Nope, you can't change the past and the Scots were equal partners in empire and are indistinguishable from the English in this regard.


"Governments don't make equality of opportunity, people do"

But governments control the many of the parameters within which our educators and community workers and activists operate. For instance, the closing down of a local charity to help women fleeing domestic abuse when funding was withdrawn by central government


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

Stu...I meant the people of Scotland, as an entity, are often unrepresented by the government of the UK,
We were, and I believe still are, a separate nation with separate history, separate culture and sense of national identity.
The "Southern rain" has not quite washed all of it away...yet.

If we wish to keep these things, the time has come to assert ourselves.
The Scots politicians in Westminster serve the UK government and do not have the interests of the Scottish people as a priority.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

Ian, you seem to Share a comprehension problem with your love child Dave.

I don't blame governments, I blame the global capitalist system.
Governments are elected to do the bidding of that system, we saw how they banded together(Liberal, Tory and Labour to rob the poor when the greedy bastards overreached themselves.
"we are all in it together" was the cry, but the crime was committed by the ultra rich.

The people have come to believe that everyone can succeed, just as they believe that they will win the lottery sometime.

People who study capitalist economics(robbery without violence), understand that for capitalism to work successfully, the masses must not be allowed to succeed. When the wealth gap narrows, capitalism is in decline, there is no longer a strong enough monetary incentive to promote growth, the poor are becoming too expensive to sustain, time to up sticks for India or China, where the rich can invest their money in a bit of serious exploitation.
Your few heaps of sticks and stone will be very small beer.

We need another incentive beyond money, which is transient.
National pride, to make our country a good place to live for all her citizens.....start tackling the real inequalities in this society, even if it means lower living standards for the drones.
We need to invest, not as absentee landlords, but invest in our young folk, generations lost because of short term political thinking

"The way is clear!!"


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

well to be honest, Musket - I think that last post by Ake was spot on. We can't all be winners in a material sense. And by and large -folk music celebrates the lives of the losers and survivors.

I know you don't agree with him on some subjects - but that doesn't mean you have to consistently rubbish the bloke - like he's some sort of untermensch. Personally I would rather be able to play Keys to the Highway like Broonzy than pick up a couple of hundred grand. I play a decent version already - but to do it perfectly - with no one listening - would mean that much to me.

I am pleased for you enjoying success in life -but its not the path many of us feel inclined to follow, or indeed able to follow.

As you say, you are investing in Scotland. If you continue to ignore the point of view of the paysans - maybe you should withdraw your investment. Remember that bit in Godfather 2, where the money guys are considering investing in Cuba? This is a nation who never voted for Tebbit and Thatcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM

To be quite blunt Dave, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about....How could you know?

Errrr, because my family background helps me to understand what repression of a nation means maybe?

What has your family background got to do with this thread?

Errrr, because my family background helps me to understand what repression of a nation means maybe?

What happens in Poland has nothing to do with this thread and does not equate in any way.

Can you not understand that the world is such a small place nowadays that everything affects everything else? Scotland want's to join the EU in it's own right. Hopefully, if it does go it alone, your politicians will understand that even if you do not.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:17 PM

I don't blame governments, I blame the global capitalist system.

But I thought you said what is happening around the globe has nothing to do with this thread and does not equate in any way.

BTW - I am not Muskets love child. I thought you said you know my Father was Polish. So unless Musket is a woman with whom Dad had a fling you are wrong again. :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:59 PM

DTG If you dont reply to Akentons pish he cant keep the thread going unless the "trolls" want him to.
The bottom line is that he does not represent the MAJORITY of Scottish voters, the silent MAJORITY who dont rant and rave either in the media or on minority view websites like this.
If you want comedy there are other outlets ..... like Holyrood.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM

Give your Dad my regards...

Al is trying to see reason here but missing the point. The comment that folk music is about the underdog being a point in case. Too many songs celebrating fox hunting for that to wash. Too many Dylans on celebrity rich lists.

Akenaton does make a valid point about globalisation. In fact, it is so succinct it completely contradicts his wishes for an independent Scotland. Big governments are needed to stand up to big multinationals.

Governments may set the agenda and may interfere but with every government since the war, every child in The UK has the opportunity to strive to where they wish to be. His incessant rambling on about nobody gets a chance just exacerbates knocking the stuffing out of people.

Your aspirations may be whatever they are, but I doubt anybody told a careers teacher they aspired to sitting in their underpants watching Jeremy Kyle. Yet many adults, as exemplified by Akenaton, seem to be happy letting kids look forward to such an existence. Drugs help the numbing experience of watching it, apparently.

Al. Just because I dismiss Akenaton for his awful bigotry doesn't mean I can't dismiss him for doom mongering. In some ways it is worse because decent people won't become bigots by reading his diatribe but plenty are taken in by those who blame everybody but themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM

Aye - Fairy Nuff, Triplane. You have a good point. Thanks.

I'm seeing him today, Musket. He is 92 now and never talks but he does seem to know what is happening. Which one were you? The blond from 1947 or the brunette from '48? :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM

Ian, your lack of comprehension obviously extends to "folk music" :0)

"Your aspirations may be whatever they are, but I doubt anybody told a careers teacher they aspired to sitting in their underpants watching Jeremy Kyle. Yet many adults, as exemplified by Akenaton, seem to be happy letting kids look forward to such an existence. Drugs help the numbing experience of watching it, apparently."

If that is a response to what I have posted, I do not see the connection.

The type of society created by Mrs Thatcher and Blair, the destruction of our manufacturing capability, the "parking" of the victims on long term benefits, the dependency on monopoly money and financial services, the betrayal of the original purpose of the NHS, by filling it with pen pushing drones, short term political thinking for paper profits, etc, etc, has resulted in the debris we see all over the UK.......to do nothing is not an option we cannot allow future generations to vanish into oblivion as a large percentage of the last generation has done.

The worship of money does not work, only providing satisfaction to those with the capability to switch off the empathy gene, carry a couple of aces up their sleeve....and have complete disregard for the future of our grandchildren.

Thanks Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

"Big governments are needed to stand up to big multinationals." :0)

Is that another one of your "piss takes" Ian?

The bigger the government, the bigger and more numerous the multinationals.   The multinationals are integral to the system, the governments are incidental.

Scotland is a brand in its own right. The world wants what we produce.
We could be one of the most prosperous nations on earth and use that prosperity to further a socialist agenda, rather than to wage war, or rob our poorest folks in the cause of "globalism".


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 05:42 AM

As to that sink of iniquity, Westminster, regular revalations put it on a par with the court of Louise X1V of France. This is what all Empires in decline have come to throughout recorded history and the reactions of a prolific poster on this thread are symptomatic of the death throes of that empire.                                       

I for one welcome the opportunity to become detached from the sordid machinations of such a regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

let me put it more bluntly - I find the way you talk to him disturbing.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

Yes. I have been trained in speaking with such people during my time inspecting prisons and forensic mental health units. I wouldn't call it disturbing. Dismissive and reluctant maybe.

You read how he speaks of sections of society, you read of his dismissal of anything English as being the blame for whatever he seems to want to moan about..

And you think my rebuttal of his creed is disturbing?

When he can speak with a civil tongue, he will get one back.

Dave. I was the one in '52 he keeps quiet about. I was pre op and society had issues accepting us in those days sweetie.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM

"We were, and I believe still are, a separate nation with separate history, separate culture and sense of national identity."

Absolutely, and one of the big mistakes of the UK is to deny the fact the home nations are not homogenous. That said, the same is true of the regions of all the home nations to a lesser degree as well.

The thing is, Scotland, Wales and the North of Ireland have very strong cultural and national identities, with the majority of the English* occupying some hinterland of confusion about who they are. The culture and identity of the home nations are no longer under threat from a central government; their uniqueness is threatened by the homogeny of the corporate jackboot and the apathy of the populace that brings with it. Anyhow, the Scots are a feisty bunch and I don't fear for any long-term erosion of identity etc. I believe that Scotland is in no danger of ever finding its own culture under threat from anyone else on these islands.

However, our history is most certainly NOT separate, it's just that our actual history rarely fits in with any nationalist narrative, of any country. The threads of our culture, identity and history are and always have been intertwined in a most intimate and subtle way. We are genetically identical, and for most of our history as a people on these islands we have not had nations and borders, but were a multi-faceted collection of tribes that had more in common than they did apart. The imposing of borders was a disaster for us all in a sense, as it began the splitting of a creative and vibrant people along lines that suited the elite rather than us, the ordinary folk.

*I say "the majority of English" because I'm sure that as folk musicians we often have a far better handle on our respective cultures and identities than the general population. We sing the songs, tell the stories and keep the flame of our culture burning, albeit very quietly in the case of the English.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

the trouble is Musket, that there a lot of people with weird views. you think rationalism will always prevail - try reading the average Muslim kids essay on homosexuality, abortion, etc.

my old man was a copper in the days when policemen staked out the bogs in the park to catch men and women cottaging. you can imagine his views on the liberalisation of the laws forbidding homosexuality. all kinds of circumstances can lead to you having contrary views.

you can't just cut these people out of the fabric of society. and cutting up rough - well its just a blind alley which leads only to despair.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM

Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it normal. Doesn't make it respectable.

Doesn't make it inclusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

I was the one in '52 he keeps quiet about.

Ahhhh, that one. Did you have the mattress removed when you got the other bits added?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

I kept the elbow pads that stopped me slipping on the cobbles in the rain.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM

Al you find Ian's words disturbing, because he is a disturbed individual. He is completely ruled by an equality agenda which is simply a myth.
We are not equal, we are not even born equal, but we do have different individual qualities and failings.
Ian does not disturb me, he can call me what he likes, it has absolutely no effect. I have seen his kind a thousand times in my life, they would not recognise rationality if it rose and bit them on the arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:22 PM

If rationality is defined as seeing others as inferior, I'm proud to be disturbed.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

We are not equal, we are not even born equal

We've known that Ake isn't equal to the task of interpreting reality for many years now. Or his own arse (or perhaps elbow).

Real "inequalities" of course as any real human recognises, are not the obvious ones. The grossly overpaid mutually validating big nobs of companies or public concerns are self-evidently lower than cockroaches. Butler bloody Sloss? Heads an inquiry when she's been recorded as biased against exposure of child abuse?

Put that shower of shit against the everyday people who are trying to bring up families on a hundredth of their rakeoff in the face of a shifting, devaluing job market and progressive withdrawal of all that made society cohesive for the last seventy years.

So which do you do: tug the forelock, or expect others to do it to you? Which side are you on, acky, which side are you on?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:24 PM

Is Musket really Nigel Farage?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:56 PM

GUEST...I don't really know why you are railing against me, I more or less agree with what you are saying regarding the demolition of society.

What side am I on?.....Hmm there are no sides, there are the rulers and the serfs. We have been trying to fight then for centuries, yet they keep consolidating while we get progressively weaker.

Small is beautiful, the bigger the union of nation states, the easier they are to control and manipulate......Just look at the EU.

Who ever thought the hard right would be fighting for democracy?
Radicals to the left and to the right are protesting about "liberal fascism"


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM

GUEST guest..... no, Mr Farage is intelligent and lucid.

He also appears to live in the REAL world.....a case of mistaken identity I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM

'Mr Farage is intelligent and lucid'

no he's a crafty populist. his truths are simplistic. complex problems reduced to a reduction ad absurdum. mind you, you could say the same for Maggie and her shopping basket. and all that Falklands flag waving bullshit, that made patriotism a dirty word.

I agree with you that Scotland has not been served well by Westminster, and needs to be run with a greater degree of self interest. the same could be said for other parts of England.

but Farage is not your boy - look at the title of his party -that's a clue!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

Thanks, Al, I KNEW he was Nigel Farage.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

Yeah, I smoke, don't understand economics and want to be out of Europe... If that keeps guest happy.

Although Musket has urges to set off fire extinguishers in the face of smokers, has been a government advisor on aspects of commerce in certain sectors and is a non executive director of companies he used to run in Germany, Italy and France. Probably got more Euros than Sterling if I broke the piggy bank and counted.

Naw, not Farage.. Fascism may deliver nicely pressed shirts and sensible haircuts but the detail I leave to crypto fools such as Akenaton.

In fact, I'm a socialist who has never voted anything other than Labour to date. Not afraid to vote otherwise but there you go

Who is the guest who thinks I am a racist neo fascist then? You see, Farage is to the right of the American Tea Party and anyone who voted for him is dangerous with a voting card.

What this has to do with a region of The UK, I don't know. The good people of Scotland gave Farage a less than friendly welcome the other month, I believe...

Except perhaps one Loch monster, who happily puts liberal and fascist in the same phrase. If someone can give him a second book to crayon in, he might start linking some other words too.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

ha ha a socialist who would prefer a Tory Westminster government than a independent Scotland which would have the chance of a Labour government. Definitely Nigel Farage in disguise.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

"I'm a socialist who has never voted anything other than Labour to date." - Musket

Ah got your start and your business or businesses going during the Thatcher and Major years, had made enough to grin and bear it during the catastrophic period of Boom-n-Bust of Blair-n-Broon.

Taking into account the Labour Party's track record in government since the end of the Second World War I would say that anyone who confessed to being a repeat Labour voter could be considered totally irresponsible and should be stripped of their right to vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM

You should be stripped of your fucking keyboard. That would be a positive step..

I got my business going in the days of.. {name any party / leader for UK / USA /Italy / Germany / France / Ireland / Singapore from 1989 onwards.}

The three of us who got it going created over 4,000 permanent decent pay jobs, and those who bought us out, or partly in my case, have added another 6,000+ jobs. Many in The UK.

For the last ten years, I have waived fees and salary for my NHS and Dept of Health work, donating in effect over £1.2million back into NHS care. I still carry out academic work pro bono, but have just stopped my other work in disgust at Jeremy Hunt's stewardship.

What have you done other than whinge about those who contribute rather than moan, as we seem to be getting our cocks out on the table?

Daft twat.

If it weren't for post war labour governments, you wouldn't have the cerebral process to form views. Education can be wasted you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

And a coo flew bye!!

Absentee landlord socialist!.....now there's a label to conjure with.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:39 PM

Der Fuhrer (SNP) mitaus oberlippenbart "Alex Salmond" heute appeared on mein fernvoyoure mit keine necktie and flustered to give his boring flat denials to everything and anything anyone suggested was ein problem.
Gott in Himmel would you vote such ein manns ideas.
BTW what happened to our taxi driver humourist
BTW2 Al, would igloos not be a more appropriate than hotels in case Scotland ends up out in the cold. :<}

B V Richthofen (smiling)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:12 AM

"I got my business going in the days of.. {name any party / leader for UK / USA /Italy / Germany / France / Ireland / Singapore from 1989 onwards.}" - Musket

That was the BFC's reply to my statement:

"Ah got your start and your business or businesses going during the Thatcher and Major years,

Now let me see Musket:

Margaret Thatcher - Prime Minister from 1979 to 1990
John Major - Prime Minister from 1990 to 1997

So according to your own trumpet blowing it would appear Musket that I was perfectly correct in stating what I did - Or are you too stupid to realise that? YOU DAFT TWAT (Your pet phrase - not mine).

I then went on to say that you:

"had made enough to grin and bear it during the catastrophic period of Boom-n-Bust of Blair-n-Broon."

Again according to you, you sold your business/businesses and then went into property, by this stage you have everything paid off so you are either living off your wife's income, or off your own investment income and pensions both Government and Private, so I would say that it would be extremely easy for you to work without pay (after all a mans has got to do something even in retirement), might cost you too much to do otherwise - Again I was correct in what I stated you had made enough to survive the catastrophic Labour Governments (1997 to 2010) that you voted for, Gordon Brown f**ked the old aged pensions of everyone in the country, but that wouldn't bother you would it - because you had made enough - So I was correct again - If anyone has demonstrated the characteristics of a DAFT TWAT it's yourself.

The shocking state of the near terminal NHS is nothing to brag about, and the thought of you teaching anybody anything makes me shudder. You appear to be the sort who would deliberately and maliciously set things down the road to destruction just to see the crash.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:27 AM

So everyone who set up businesses in a certain time frame is supporting the government of the time?

You are a weird fucker...


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:36 AM

Now then, you daft twat, where in anything I have written have I said anything even remotely stating that?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:08 AM

Ian, Every empty or holiday let property you have, contributes to the difficulty experienced by our young folk in obtaining a house, to live in and carry out their employment from.

You and your ilk are a blight on this country.
You and your ilk are not as popular in rural as you seem to imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 05:07 AM

Funny that.

The jobs are, according to the Scottish government, increasingly in the tourist trade. The incentives are for inward investment in that industry. Highlands even have covenants on many cottages for sale that they are only for short term holiday lets!

Yeah, your wonderful "once free of Westminster" SNP are my biggest fans it would appear. The ones I completed on in Fife last week? Local builders are awaiting my people to ask for bids. Each and every house has had at least three companies visit them prior to bidding for the refurbishment work I am offering. Cards from cleaners and other domestic services are clogging up the hallways.

If you want to look at bad landlords, instead of attacking those propping the country up, look at Dundee Council. They are worth a whole series of BBC Panaroma......

Funny how real Scottish people roll out the red carpet? Even in your own locality.

The demise of living locally is cyclic. I left the Derbyshire village I was born in, then left the mining town I served my apprenticeship in. You can't live on nostalgia. Following the money has been a constant since the stone ages. Where I come from, we have the caves to prove it.

Pricing people out of the housing market is a problem. So is lack of work. Holiday lets in nice geographic areas is at worst neutral, at best encouraging infrastructure.

Popular? I'm more popular than you for starters. I judge everyone on personal merit rather than wondering what they use their arse for. I encourage people to get on rather than whinge (hitting the wrong target) about how we are all doomed. Doomed I say!

Go and play with your friends on the bishop thread I created. You found a whole new set of admirers there with no help whatsoever. {chortle}


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM

Plenty of work in this area, most of it done by single Poles or Eastern Europeans living in sheds and being paid under the minimum wage....Economic migrants.

Our own young people who want to marry, have a family, buy a house, have no equality of opportunity. Houses are out of reach for most even if they could get a mortgage.

What do they do? some live with their parents, some drift off to the city, live in rented accommodation and watch life passing them by.

But fuck them Ian, you're alright, so all is well with the world.

We must be mad to want independence!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

Yeah, I'm alright. So are those who you reckon are watching life go by but in actual fact are getting on, contributing and enjoying.

You have it in for migrants doing the jobs others won't do? For someone who claims to work hard, you seem to want everybody else to have it easy.

Your young people have every opportunity, same as young people everywhere else. Scotland's economy is picking up slightly after the jitters earlier in the year when employers and investors thought independence might accidentally happen. The latest figures were published this morning. For those who can't "get on" Scotland has the highest per capita social bill of any measured region in Europe.

You are right. It seems the majority aren't mad after all....

Whether I am alright or not is irrelevant. Telling all and sundry they are doomed isn't alright. There are enough people sat in their underwear watching Cash in the Attic without convincing people that's all there is. You damn parts of society and tell the rest that they can't control their destiny. You are a right barrel of fucking laughs...

You haven't done too badly out of investors yourself if you are a local builder round your parts. Many local shops that elderly people rely on are still there because of the holiday lets down the street, not because your wonderful Scottish politicians have cohesive community strategies.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 02:41 AM

Most of the migrants working in this area are single men, here because they can earn three or four times what they can in Eastern Europe....they live in communal dwellings and send almost all their money back to their families.
The guys I spoke to say they have saved enough in 8 years to build a house in Poland.
A married man in Scotland could not live, never mind build a house on the wage rates quoted.
The truth is, we have a whole generation of young people who have been ignored by governments who are using immigration as a tool to bolster a failing economy.
Alex Salmond says he will increase immigration, but that will not work, a start must be made on training our young people, even if the rest of society are forced to take a hit in the process.

If we force our youth to rot on minimal benefits and do not provide a viable future for them, we are simply storing up trouble for the future.
However, if the problem is left in the hands of Westminster governments, there is no hope of future change, just more of the medicine we have been swallowing for decades.

Independence first, then we can make the politicians dance to our tune.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM

Interesting use of the word "our."


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

I tink w all admire the many achievements of Musket. he is obviously a man of great resourceful ness and ability. well done to him. I can't imagine anyone with his lowly origins not being proud and contented with all that his career has encompassed.

but lets face it Ian. you are being less than honest with yourself about the present situations. its not good for lots of people.

I remember the first time I did a days supply teaching at a comp in Hucknall - . about 86. I was stuck at home - couldn't gig, after my hit record as Denise was too ill. i'd tried running a recording studio - but the technology moved too fast for anyone to keep affording.

my first day - and at break time. I was saying to another teacher how nice the kids were, the last teaching I had done was in Newtown , Brum. after big city kids -they were a delight.

this teacher said to me. oh yes the kids are lovely here. the only problem is, after the third year - they know they're going down the mines and the girls know they're going to marry a miner. and it is REALLY difficult to interest them in anything.

there are so many parts of England where education isn't really part of the traditional warp and weft of working class life. and presumably - you know all this Musket -its where you come from.

you aren't being priced out of a job by someone living in a shed. its buggered up wages for farm workers for years, England traditionally has a low wage economy. its not easy for people.

maybe its easy for tories getting cheap labour. and that's why Scotland needs desperately needs to get rid of the bastards, get them off their backs. we could do worse ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM

Al. You miss my point completely. Akenaton was complaining that no matter what you do, you're stuffed.

I go out of my way to ensure the youth of today doesn't listen to such attitudes. We already have three sometimes four generations of families who have never had work. But you know what? The coincidence of it all being not for the want of trying is beyond reason. If you listen to doom mongers, you are impressed by them.

You are right about the past. At my school, it was the pit, Batchelors or Co-op glassworks for the boys, Bairnswear for the girls. The careers teacher hadn't the vision to look beyond.

By bringing out my own experiences, I am not perpetuating privilege, I'm not even trying some old rags to riches shit, I'm saying that blaming governments for situations can only go so far. It amazes me how everybody thinks governments are effective at bad things and incompetent at good things. You can't have it both ways.

No such thing as Tory. No such thing as Labour. You vote, you get the government. Whether you make what you can out of life is as much down to yourself and those who put themselves forward as role models for you as much as policies decided a couple of hundred miles away.

It isn't about you, me or Akenaton. It's about encouraging people to do something about their lives rather than accept the lazy option of blaming politicians.

Scotland won't do better or worse by removing a layer of legislative decision making yet poor ignorant chumps such as Akenaton are taken in by weasely worded jingoistic claptrap from politicians, who prove their point by blaming err... Politicians.

I'm rather saddened to see you falling for political jam tomorrow. Yes, the present Conservative party is dangerous, especially post reshuffle and yes, Labour do not seem fit or ready to form a government yet.

But worrying about it just gives them influence they don't actually have... I've held positions where I have seen how deluded they are about their influence. The NHS in England alone has a million patient to clinician decisions each and every day, yet a junior minister sits agonising how much their decisions really change things. My time as an advisor was short because, in so many words, I kept saying "fuck all difference minister, just like your predecessor and probably like your successor." Not the best way of keeping your post...

If it helps I can either waffle endlessly about the bailiff telling us we could keep the pram or pushchair but not both, or how I was knocking on doors trying to sell "maintenance chemicals" on commission only with fuck all sales and a family. I decided to get off my arse instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM

Akenaton:
1: "Plenty of work in this area, most of it done by single Poles or Eastern Europeans living in sheds and being paid under the minimum wage....Economic migrants.

Our own young people who want to marry, have a family, buy a house, have no equality of opportunity. Houses are out of reach for most even if they could get a mortgage.

What do they do? Some live with their parents, some drift off to the city, live in rented accommodation and watch life passing them by."


Begs the following comments:
a If there is plenty of work why aren't "our own young people" as you refer to them not doing it?
b If "our young people" are living at home then they are one step better off than the Polish of Eastern European workers who must, presumably, be paying rent for their sheds, hired to them by "our locals" most likely. Or perhaps Musket could tell us if he also lets out sheds? ;0)
c What do they do? Get off their arses for a start and realize that the world and life does not owe them a living

2: "Most of the migrants working in this area are single men, here because they can earn three or four times what they can in Eastern Europe....they live in communal dwellings and send almost all their money back to their families.
The guys I spoke to say they have saved enough in 8 years to build a house in Poland.
A married man in Scotland could not live, never mind build a house on the wage rates quoted."


Bullshit – what one can do, then so can another. It requires sacrifice and exercising free choice. If the migrant can survive and save then so too could the Scot (We used to be famous for it). You will also find that you will not find the migrant worker down the pub, or outside it smoking or in the bookies

3: "The truth is, we have a whole generation of young people who have been ignored by governments who are using immigration as a tool to bolster a failing economy."

Free movement of the workforce has got nothing whatsoever to do with the British Government – the practice is part and parcel of being an EU member state. What we have is a whole generation of young people who have somehow got it into their minds that the world must operate and revolve round them pandering to their every perceived need and demand – unfortunately life isn't actually like that. We also have a whole generation of young people who have been brought up by their parents to believe that it is acceptable for them to weigh up the balance of life on benefits (Which they have never contributed to) versus working at whatever job is available then choosing which pays best – Wake up smell the coffee IT ISN'T – If you want to gain some working experience or if you want to acquire a work ethic then first you have to do some bloody work.


4: "Alex Salmond says he will increase immigration, but that will not work, a start must be made on training our young people, even if the rest of society are forced to take a hit in the process."

Just to make ends meet the Government of Scotland will have to attract and allow at least 500,000 more migrant workers into the country to work in both public and private sectors – They need the tax revenue and the national insurance contributions that allowing these people in to the country to work will eventually generate. No point in training "your" young people if those young people do not want to be trained and are only going to consider well paid jobs on their doorstep. You make decisions that directly affect your life with regard to increasing the options that will be open to you. Restrict yourself too much and all that is left is what is available and you take it – but sitting at home on benefits is not and should not be an option.


5: "If we force our youth to rot on minimal benefits and do not provide a viable future for them, we are simply storing up trouble for the future."

The only people forcing "our youth to rot on minimal benefits" are those youths themselves, their parents and people such as yourself – The State does not owe you, me, or anybody else a living.

6: "Independence first, then we can make the politicians dance to our tune."

Care to tell us how? The politicians you elect will do the same as politicians the world over do. They will con you into voting for them and they will then do all they can to keep hold of the power they have just acquired – You the voter and any of your wishes doesn't even enter the equation after that, until the next election when they con you again – easy to do because people like yourself and Musket are "traditional" voters (Musket admitting for voting for the Party of Blair twice and Broon once – even inspite of the clear evidence of damage they were doing to the country as a whole, apparently nothing would induce him to vote any other way).


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

disagree Teribus.

the country owes no one a living. yes it fucking does!
my parents literally starved during the 20's and 30's. they were working family shovelling coal and shale for a bare living, whilst England clung to the gold standard, or whatever the monetarists called 'honest money' in those days.

then they were called onto fight for the dumb fucks who had armed Hitler.

the deal brokered was cradle to grave. if tory shitheads choose to welch on the deal and they have conned buggers like you to vote for it, the deal still stands.

they owe big time for all those tank crews outgunned by panzer tanks, incinerated in Plymouth and Coventry, the wholesale slaughter on the D Day beaches.........
they still owe. they will always owe. they need reminding of that every time they fuck up the economy and sell British industry down the river, for a tax rebate for the rich bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM

Big Al Whittle - 17 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

Bullshit Big Al - pure Bullshit

You are born and YOU are responsible for your path through life NO-ONE ELSE.

Ah but I forgot - you are a socialist - therefore your automatic default position is that is is - ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:34 PM

no Teribus...........not bullshit.

the culture and history of a caring society. its roots, which should be a source of pride to every true British patriot.

real patriotism....as opposed to the flag waving phoney fuckers in the tory party.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:15 AM

Whatever Big Al whatever.

I believe in encouraging self-reliance and on accepting responsibility. To far too many in the United Kingdom the culture of benefit dependence and taking the welfare system (Put in place to act as a temporary "safety blanket") for every penny they can get can is self-destructive and soul-destroying.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:14 AM

You think I voted Labour without considering others Teribus? Glad to see you know my mind. Just a pity you haven't read where I am a floating voter. One that has for local MP reasons always voted Labour.

In council elections, the conservative local cllr is active, visible and responds well. I wasn't in the country the last time she was up for reelection but have no problem whatsoever considering lending her my support next year. The local conservative MP fought hard and long for rural broadband and as of last week I went from <1Mb to 70Mb and have no issue congratulating his efforts. I wrote to say so. I couldn't however trust a conservative government with EU relations. I am a European by outlook.

Nationally, Labour did well domestically under Blair and sadly, only the war mongering will be remembered. Between them, they built up infrastructure and invested in the future. It wasn't sustainable, but the world market wasn't anyway. The only two things I blame Broon for are flogging gold at bottom price and, interestingly, increasing NHS spending a year or two too early.

I may feel strongly that young people need encouragement to get on rather than monkey see monkey do attitudes that promote reliance on the state and black economy, but I disagree completely with your assertion over temporary safety blanket.

Yin and yang. Not everybody can get on. I had an interesting couple of years helping inspect care and nursing homes. I also led on assessing prison healthcare and substance misuse services. That more than anything else cemented my view that we have a responsibility. We need to spend more, not less on those who slip through the net. But for that to happen, we need more contributors. More contributors means less benefit dependence.

Sadly, Westminster through Ian Duncan Smith have seen this as a draconian cost saving exercise and Scotland cannot afford any alternative.

It doesn't take politicians. It takes young people leaving school to be told this is the start of an adventure, grab it if you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

"
I believe in encouraging self-reliance and on accepting responsibility. To far too many in the United Kingdom the culture of benefit dependence and taking the welfare system (Put in place to act as a temporary "safety blanket") for every penny they can get can is self-destructive and soul-destroying."

Mr T.....I think everyone here would agree with those sentiments entirely, but you must remember that huge numbers were "parked" on benefits when our manufacturing industries became uncompetitive and Scotland's oil revenues used to pay the bill.

As I have already said, people have lost patience with the merry-go-round of Westminster, where one shower of corrupt incompetents are succeeded by an even more incompetent shower.
We need to take responsibility for ourselves, just as you say, make our country and our economy work.....yes there will be those who have lost the work ethic or who have become just too dispirited to even try any longer, but Independence can be a new beginning.
Most Scots have an innate sense of national pride, and will make bloody sure whoever forms the first independent government don't let Scotland's name fall into the gutter us the United Kingdom's has done.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM

Many "liberals" were attracted to the Labour Party by the stench of Blair and his accomplices. Since then, we have had no functioning Party of the left, just another seat on the merry-go-round.

There are few conviction politicians any longer, especially in the "Labour" party, being filled by idiot rights campaigners and "socialist absentee landlords"........God help us!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:49 AM

Liberals and rights campaigners.

Anyone else you wish to blame for your failures?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

It must be hard for someone who keeps saying "people around where I live" and then notice two gay Englishmen living down the road who intend to responsibly vote no.

That alone is worth a smile.

Mind you, I don't know where this absentee landlord stuff is coming from. He means me, but of all the titles I have, that certainly isn't one of them. I have no residential lets in Scotland. No intention of having any either. Holiday lets and student digs.

Can't have my premises being used as HQ for Sword and Shield eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

"we have had no functioning Party of the left,"

Not strictly true. The Green Party is a fully functioning left of centre party that is very active locally and has one MP. The real issue for the Greens is the name; they need to reform and embrace the broad church of the left under a different banner as the Greens seem a tad anarchistic as a name. Their policies are progressive, achieved through consensus and consolation and most of all not centred around London.

As capitalism fails, the left would do well to unite to promote a more regulated approach to running the economy whilst encouraging entrepreneurship to flourish. We're not going to compete with the Chinese and Asians, and Africa is still to find it's feet (which it will). We need to look beyond the corporate politics of the right.

The thing is, as Teribus says, trusting virtually any politician is an exercise in futility these days and Scotland will be as vulnerable to their lies and obsfucations after independence as they are now. I'd vote to shake off the Westmonster yoke too, but the utopia of the north is a fantasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

If you shook off a Westminster yoke, what would you replace it with, a Barnsley yoke?

Politicians tinker and the real controllers of destiny, commerce, take political proclamations too seriously. Government tries to be light touch and fails, yet ironically is as influential as if their light touch actually worked. Bankers worked this out years ago.

People used to ask why my company bought out and invested in a factory in Italy, given the Mickey Mouse politics there. Simple. Nobody takes Italian politicians seriously, except UK media who somehow think Italians are as fascinated by their politicians as we are with ours. The commercial interests in Italy get on with providing jobs. Competitively in terms of factory gate prices whilst providing higher than EU average wages. On the back of that success, a further 30 UK jobs in distribution.

They / we still do. (I stepped down 11 years ago but still a non exec')


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM

"If you shook off a Westminster yoke, what would you replace it with, a Barnsley yoke?"

I don't live in Barnsley.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

It's north of Watford.

Apart from Ray Padgett, no bugger else does either.

Tsk


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

"It's north of Watford."

I live north of Watford.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

Congratulations. Here, have a black pudding.

I reckon there are a few thousand towns and villages far away from London, and I picked one at random. I have to admit, I certainly didn't expect anyone to read any further into it than that....


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM

i live north of watford - cockermouth, cumbria, scotland. not achmelvich - no-one lives in achmelvich


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:59 PM

Someone once told me that Achmelvich was like Arbroath without the smokies. Anyway...

Just had the immense pleasure of playing host to a family from Dunkeld. Who reckon Salmond is the devil incarnate. Up to now that is 7 Scots I know who will be voting no. True, I don't know many more but things are looking up for common sense.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:14 PM

2 of my children live in edinburgh and don't know anyone who is voting no. however, they don't expect the yes vote to win. maybe it's the old progressive v conservative and unionist argument again. and scotland, like the rest of the uk is, sadly, mostly small c conservative. shame, i think it would be interesting. surely we don't always have to be run by tories.......


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Stuart Pond, north of Watford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:03 PM

"Congratulations. Here, have a black pudding."

Why a black pudding?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:40 PM

I think the big problem with your analysis Teribus is that it encourages government to be very idle - to shrug its shoulders and see nothing to be done. TINA to doing nothing.

if all our problems are due to the individual - then Thatcher was right to lose 28 per cent of manufacturing industry in one year. and as John Harvey Jones pointed out - some of tHose businesses were good businesses - they had problems - but it was irresponsible to just say nothing to be done.

governments do that too much anyway. its their duty to address the problems we face. not just walk away.

nothing to be done about the economically depressed parts of Britain. to use your own phrase...BULLSHIT!
its not individuals who need to get off their arses, its government. they're a bloody disgrace! Scotland couldn't do any worse on its own. it a beautiful country and its going to waste.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 02:58 AM

Achmelvich....don't lose hope, I agree very much about Scotland being socially conservative, but that is a positive in many ways.
Remember the huge last minute swing when the SNP came to power.

Scots don't like to be bullied or told how to vote by non-Scots, they seldom follow UK voting patterns.

Unfortunately there is some debris from the historic sectarian feud, which I thought had been binned long ago, allied to the English "carpetbaggers".....it'll be close.


Al....if we win our freedom, you are going to be made an honorary Scot

Big Al MacWhittle...   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM

"We" being people happening to live in Scotland as of a certain date in September. Salmond didn't even manage to negotiate a vote for Scottish people. Cameron wiped his arse with him in the negotiations. The only time Cameron has shown us he has a pair of balls and can win something.

Still, the opposition wasn't as hard as a room full of school children.

You know, I do blame Thatcher for lots and would dance on her grave if they had been foolish enough to give her one, even with my trademark miner's dodgy knees. But again, we blame her yet it was the stock market that kept the pound strong and UK manufacturing weak. Salmond is promising that Scotland would want a strong currency so the oil dollars get a good exchange.

I suppose next he will be saying a strong groat / whatever makes package tours from Prestwick more affordable.

Meanwhile, nobody wants to buy empty industrial units. I could have bought half of Cumbernauld (Deerdyke industrial area) for what I paid for a few old fisherman's cottages the other week, but industry is toxic until this blows over.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

hello dave gnome

re: your friends frae dunkeld - are they being a wee bit hysterical here? salmond the 'devil incarnate'? really? i can think of a few people who seem a good deal more evil or dangerous than him. seems like a quite inoffensive and canny bloke to me. anyway, it's not a referundum on alec salmond. for scots with the choice to make, i recently read a bit about if you were thinking of buying your dream house would you choose not to if you didn't like the wallpaper in the front room? salmond is the wallpaper - buy the house and change the wallpaper. your friends need to calm down a bit -give them a large whisky or some free prescription sedatives


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:24 AM

In Victorian times, the wallpaper and paint was toxic and lowered life expectancy.

If the Celtic tiger {snigger} wins, you are stuck with the wave he will ride on all the way till grown up countries agree to bale Scotland out subject to the usual usury rates.

See the other "Celtic economies for details.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 11:01 AM

in what sense is scotland not a grown up country? do you think the current westminster lot have a grown up view eg of life; europe; human rights; the world? and you want these self-interested eejits to continue to 'look after' feckless wee scotland? you are a weird one.....


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM

You have to born in order to begin to grow up.

Scotland may have been a principality a few hundred years ago, but hasn't had an embassy since it set one up on the Darian venture. The rest of the world only knows Scotland as a country from Hollywood sources.

Least said soonest mended eh?

My point was that The UK is a player. When we make a stance, the world listens. Might have a laugh but it listens. Who listens to Bulgaria? After all, it is a country and is a present member of The EU.

Got a much higher population and land mass than Scotland and is strategically in an important place on the map.

That's what I mean by grown up. Influence. Something you need to turn groats into porridge.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

i don't agree that 'influence' on the world stage is the most important thing. in fact compared to the well-being of the people in a nation it is of no importance whatsoever. the last time i can recall the uk making a stance on anything in europe was on the right to not cap bankers' bonuses. in my memory our government have never taken a stance on anything that was contrary to the interests of the american military/industrial elite.
whenever i see eg william hague making some portentious statement on eg syria it just seems pathetic. i imagine that not one government - or probably one individual - with real influence could give a damn what our spokesmen say. europeans despair at our attitude and americans know we will just agree so don't care.
understanding our place in the modern world and attending to what is most important are better indicators of being grown up.
england and scotland are great places for most of us to be but the mark of a successful and civilized nation is how it looks after the vulnerable and least fortunate.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

I'm not worried that you agree or disagree.

You are entitled to your view as I am mine.

But to international trade, very important. Without The UK apron strings, even more so.

My cat calling and piss taking has a serious point. Without facts, it isn't a case of voting no, it is grossly irresponsible to vote at all. The referendum should be based on what independence means, not what a politician tries to convince people it means.

Saying others will change their stance whilst he will remain wedded to his is not what intelligent people will vote for.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:23 PM

Not only are the statements made by Mr Hague on foreign affairs, pathetic, but also dangerous and destructive.

The support for "liberal" elements in Libya and Syria have been a complete disaster and have led directly to the rise of radical Islam over the Middle East and North Africa.

The less we try to "influence world opinion" the better for everyone.

As far as trade is concerned, Scotland has nothing to fear. We are a strong brand, and produce services, energy, food and luxury articles that the whole world is eager to buy.
We have our history, beautiful land and seascapes etc, which will encourage tourism when properly promoted by a Scottish government.

Most importantly, we will have a government which reflects the will of the Scottish people....

It is interesting that those on this thread who are most strongly opposed to Scottish independence are those who have no vote and no real interest in the future of Scotland, or her people.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

oh yes we all remember that.........the market that couldn't be bucked.

its right up there with the Jim'll Fix It medal.

you've heard of the ghost in the machine - that was the shit in the machine.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:13 AM

sorry,you've lost me there, al.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM

Al thinks money should come his way without having to work for it. He hadn't worked out it is trade and markets alone that allow any social welfare system to exist. Ugly? No. Real politik.

Akenaton speaks of tourism in one breath and berates those of us developing Scottish tourism the next. The Scottish government see me as an investor in the future of Scotland. Mrs Musket and I received an invitation to a weekend at Gleneagles next month courtesy of Akenaton's tax bill. We can't make it , and having politicos fawning over you isn't really my scene. We stay there on our way to the North most years anyway.

By the way, not having a vote does not mean not having an interest. Unless wealth is actually created, success is at the cost of failure elsewhere.

Just to remind people. Scottish people do not get a vote. People registered in Scotland do. Far different thing with such a small population.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:56 AM

The only reason that there are any benefits at all under this system, is to continue its survival.

If is was in the interests of the wealthy to let the poor die in the streets, they would certainly do so.
Benefits are simply used as a tool to keep the masses quiet, but as we can see, that soon becomes unsustainable and capital moves on.
That's where national pride self responsibility and a different mindset about life and values comes in.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM

If you want to know how efficient Scotland is today,let alone after beakaway , then try booking a seat/berth on the night train to Scotland !! As soon as Scotrail staff twig that you're a Sassenach ,you've had it !! I had to cancel a much fancied holiday aboard a Clyde Puffer ( actually a former RN Victualling Inshore Craft or VIC and it doesn't "puff" either !) because every time we tried to GET to Scotland in the first bloody place we had nothing but frustration from sullen,unhelpul,staff .The vessel's "skipper " (an Englishman ) told me he had the same problems getting from Inverness to England with Scotrail !! Come on,Jock; buck your ideas up !!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

Akenaton just said that if you are wealthy, you'd let the poor die in the street.

Not much point in engaging with filth.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:09 AM

Bubbly....shurely shome mishtake?? Ian says Scots are all lovely helpful gay people.....except me of course!! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 12:38 PM

musket - are you calling the poor filth? really? there is probably a wee bit more compassion around in scotland. hope so, anyway...or we're al doomed


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 01:49 PM

Aye, whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

so you reckon the amount of work we do should be reflected in our earnings......theres a novel concept.

the trouble is that inequality is enshrined and protected and ourroyal family puts the rubberstamp on it. when I suggested earlier that maybe the highland clearances were not fair and equitable - and that maybe some restitution was due to the Scottish people, I was accused of advocating 'a Mugabe type land grab'.

things are in a mess in this country, because the nobs fucked it up. they'd bitch about the unions at British Leyland striking for a decent wage - but the poor sods were flogging themselves to death on sixty year old track. cos there was no investment.

they had all the power and they will take NO responsibility for getting things right.its always the fault of the spendthrift working classes.

i'm retired now pretty much. I do a pubgig when its offered. but I worked hard all my working life and from the age of twenty seven, I've been my wife's carer. saved the country thousands by not leaving her and putting her in a home.

do I think I got the full measure of what my Dad drove Sherman tank for and saved this country from Hitler = penny for penny maybe. but did they owe and do they still owe - you betcha!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM

BL may have been on strike for a decent wage but the people "our fathers fought for" would have settled for a decent fucking car...

The nobs didn't fuck the country up. The knobs do try though. Both sides of the artificial divide. Luckily they aren't very successful. Society isn't any better or worse than before, and the austerity of post war UK makes the austerity of now seem to be something you'd rather not shout about.

Society is letting a hell of a lot of people down. Politicians can hinder rather than help that situation. But the arguments are all on the side of what to do with the money you spend on social infrastructure.

Go back a stage to how do you create that money in the first place and this chip on shoulder comparison argument goes out of the window. Any of us could propose how to turn life expectancy from 34 to 80 in many third world areas. But without wealth creation, the countries in question can't. Some actually won't. Same here. Every scheme to help society could be a success if the money was there.

Al mentions being a carer. Without family carers, social care would collapse. Take the army of unpaid carers out of the equation and you would need an extra few billion in residential care and domicillary care. You can't find that money and knock the wealth creators at the same time.

In terms of Scotland, as that particular part of The UK is in debate here, that means wealth creation to support the largest public sector per capita of the whole of The UK. Not easy without Westminster bailouts.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:47 AM

This just in...

Beeing a gentleman of leisure for the foreseeable, I thought it a good idea to subscribe to a newspaper iPad edition for the in depth stuff, reviews etc.

Well....

At the end of the article there is as ever an opportunity for readers to comment.

An article about Scottish independence has a post from a person calling himself Akenaton opposing independence and saying how difficult it is to be gay when people in his neck of the woods include a few old bigots.

Excellent!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

and your point is?

I always spell akenaton with a small a......:0)

And I never comment on newspaper articles.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

I guess spelling it with a small a is about right for a small person. Mind you, the chances of two Scottish blokes misspelling Akhenaten and never correcting it...

Don't worry, it might be someone enjoying having a nom de plume the same as yours behaving as a civilised member of the public. This one seems to be British to the core, gay, animal rights activist and in favour of big business to help Scotland recover. He feels independence is a smoke screen for fanciful nationalists with a William Wallace fixation and no clue.

Somebody must be having a laugh..

Good to read it though. Which one reveals the real Alex?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

'every scheme to help society could be a success if the money was there'
- as the scots try to demonstrate by choosing to spend more on preserving health and social care programmes than the rest of the uk. the westminster government are more concerned with selling off our national assets to (often overseas) financial interests, then our common wealth is bound to decline. however, we are still a very rich country and could easily afford to properly look after the more vulnerable in our society with a more progressive system (and progressive tax system) Less wasted on vanity projects like trident, military spending generally, the monarchy or hs2 would also be a big help.
public spending can also be a very profitable way of generating business and employment. money spent on educating the workforce (as the scots successfully demonstrate) is never wasted.
when the private/financial sector completely screwed up they had to rely on us -the public sector- to bail them out. having wasted countless billions of our money they have learned that there is no risk - they won't be prosecuted and are free to come begging again next time it all goes wrong.
it is surely not beyond the wit of government to run a rich country for the benefit of all their citizens. westminster has abandoned that goal which is why many scots would like the opportunity to try to make a better job of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 05:06 PM

And they do via the Scottish government. Removing a layer that doesn't dictate health and social care isn't going to affect health and social care.

That said, the relative ageing population and huge health inequalities in Scotland together with low birth rates would make any English, Welsh or Ulster person hope the yes vote wins...

If the next UK government carries on with Trident, I can almost guarantee an independent Scottish government will wish to host it as the loss of jobs would be of frightening proportions. The service level agreement would include liability anyway so what would be different? Trident is strategically based where it is by request of NATO anyway. Salmond when asked said he expected Scotland to remain in NATO. George Robertson cemented Scotland's commitment nicely.

If you want to believe the politicians, you have to honestly ask yourself why you can trust all those wishing for independence as being on the side of the angels and all those in the no camp as being lying bastards.

I doubt the vast majority of Scots are that naive.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 05:44 PM

i don't imagine for a moment that all those pro-independence are on the side of the angels. but i did say that many scots would like the opportunity to try to make a better job of government than westminster have managed- hardly a contentious point. there is also no argument that we are a wealthy country that could be run more fairly. many -not all- scots have more sympathy towards a more egalitarian approach to government. and are quite rightly aggravated by being told they are not capable of managing their own affairs without the benign generosity of rump uk.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:29 PM

But they aren't capable.

Real politik.

They would need a currency. The UK chancellor has said he cannot allow sharing unless this was in the interest of The UK, which is correct. Therefore, if Scotland wants to use sterling, they would be bound to UK interest rates and international exchange rates influenced by UK policy.

Doesn't sound like independence to me.

If they wanted to join The EU, they would , as every new member has to, use The Euro. Again, fiscal policy set abroad.

A long term future based on short term oil at a price set by OPEC in a currency exchange set by London or Frankfurt? Might work if you shoot your pensioners.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:25 AM

the part of bl that i worked for made dumper trucks - not cars. they were very proud that they had a waiting list of five years, couldn't be arsed to get spares to people, and were bloody expensive.

takes some real management skills to work out a policy like that. not the fault of the workers. i bet the whole bloody company was the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:33 AM

anyway who is knocking wealth creation!   ,that's the whole problem. england scratches its arse and whistle whilst every industry in scotland goes down the tubes.

shipbuilding, motorbikes, fishing - Mark Thatcher even had a job advertising Japanese whisky. the scots aren't against wealth - they are just saying a polite tone that the Irish never mastered = piss off Sassenach!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:59 AM

Five year waiting list..

Mind you, you are right about incompetent inept management. I waste time and money restoring a a Triumph Stag. The cooling system had a huge design flaw that became apparent on the prototypes but because the permission to alter signature was on leave, it was decided to continue to production selling a faulty car. A memo mentioned that it would be a good idea if Lucas designed and sold customers a replacement kit once the fault showed itself.

The one interesting part of this is how one of the elements, Unipart, have gone on to become a huge success story. Their six sigma approach is something they sell to other industries and I encouraged NHS trusts to adopt their communication cell approach with huge success. One of my favourite companies.

Back to Scotland. Hillman Imp anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM

Well, this Sassenach isn't pissing off, and I'm not interested in your petty nationalism or sudden denial of the Scots part in empire and government of these either. That'll come back to bite you in the arse, as many English can tell you.

What I am interested in is the kick in the arse the ordinary working people of England will get if the Scots choose independence. It might be our last hope of reviving the sort of social radicalism that the English actually do well: Wat Tyler, the Putney debates, the reformists who died at the Peterloo massacre, trade unionism, the Chartists, Luddites, Suffragettes and the inspirational Diggers. We too have suffered for the common good.

So go for it Scotland; you'll still be in hock to the supra-nationals that control our governments and world markets in the same way the remaining UK will be, but at least you've awoken a degree of fighting spirit in your people (I say "your" people, but we are one people in reality, divided by nationalism).

Be bold - chuck out Trident, start with your own currency, instigate land reform to return stolen land from the people. Rewild your wildernesses, reject inequality and the blinkers of consumerism. Educate and care for your people for free. Continue with your scientific and technological research, as the future lies therein, not in lining the pockets of the rich.

Vote yes, wake up the people of these islands and perhaps we can build a fairer society for all our children, whatever country, region, parish or street we live in. Then one day we can tear up this artificial, retrogressive divide and be one people again, as we should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

let's be honest. its just that I really fancy Anita Manning - from BBC's BARGAIN HUNT


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/lovesong-for-anita-manning


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

Normally, I appreciate how songwriters get their inspiration, but Al, you really ought to get out more....

Scotland for instance. cottages4you have a place in Aviemore with an empty week, 3rd week in August. All ground floor, easy access, off road parking. Little chance of accidentally bumping into Scottish people up there too. If you rent out your places to Glaswegians, they only take the doors off and burn them. (Ok, I'm getting bored now...)


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

she's a hot little number Musket!

she can toss my caber anytime!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM

I used to have a girlfriend with the same surname but this was a Nottinghamshire lass.

Hope you get your oats, you scotch porridge you!


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

Stu....I liked that, fire in the belly!

But though we become independent, we will always be "one people" the human species.
Nations protecting their own historic cultures is a good thing, who wants to live in a featureless desert?

This issue is important to me personally, as I have invested 70 years of my life in service to our community and still doing so.
This will be my last chance to help bring about a new mindset regarding how we see society and nationhood.
"Its comin' yet" said Burns, and it surely will even if it does not this time.   Humanity can be brothers under the skin AND proud of their nation and culture....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM

""Japanese (artificially aged scotch-style) whisky""

I tried it once on a Japanese ocean research vessel. It was excellent, very tasty and smooth. Yummy.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:11 PM

Are you proud of the large and worthy gay culture Scotland enjoys?

Are you by any chance understanding what the fuck you say when you use words such ad humanity and brothers under the skin?

70 years eh? Pity you are so fucking bitter. Your nation is far too good for sad twisted bigots. I wouldn't worry about Scotland if I were you. The last thing it needs is holding back by listening to irrelevant yesterday's failures.

Your historical culture is far more inclusive than you.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:19 AM

A personal attack on my views, has no relevance to this thread.
Brotherhood and equality in my book, does not run to legislation in favour of a tiny sexual minority which is associated with such high rates of ill health, even if it only affects 1 in 100 of the population of Scotland

Mr Salmond and the SNP can bring forward whatever policies they wish, as long as we achieve the goal of independence......the end in this case, justifies the means.

After independence has been won, there will be much to do regarding all issues, political AND social.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:44 AM

Fuck me gently.....


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM

"Brotherhood and equality doesn't run to 1% of the population if I don't think they are equal?"

I really do hope people read your post there. it is possibly one of the funniest I have ever read.

The health inequalities in Scotland are well documented, and trust me, the gay 2.8% (not one in a hundred) are amongst the healthiest. I'd worry about CHD, COPD, obesity and alcohol related morbidity if I were a Scottish politician. Then I'd probably worry about the huge heroin issues in urban areas. Then perhaps access to services that cause late presentation in more rural areas.

What was that about gay people again? Probably the fittest you've got if you treat them as a demographic.

Pathetic.

Yeah, an independent Scotland will err... Actually, they will do exactly what they do now, regardless of whether there is a Westminster angle. The first thing they will do is ensure views like yours, not that there are many thankfully, get marginalised, ignored and left to die out.

Trust me. They will. Bigotry such as yours isn't popular, doesn't win elections and isn't tolerated by decent people any more. Back in your hole worm.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:29 PM

The Office of National Statistics say 1.5% including females.
Deduct the females who are hardly affected at all by HIV and you have a figure of around or just under 1%.
The ONS study was of over 250,000 people, a huge sample for statistical purposes.

A new study conducted by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) highlights urgent HIV prevention needs for have sex with men, especially young men and men of colour.

Approximately one in five (19 percent) men who have sex with men (MSM) in a study of 21 major U.S. cities is infected with HIV, and nearly half (44 percent) of those men are unaware of their infection, according to a new analysis from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In the study, young MSM and MSM of color were least likely to know their HIV status.
The findings were recently published in CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:43 AM

Like I said, 2.8%.

The issue isn't how many people are in relationships with people of the same sex any more than people with ginger pubic hairs or prefer a certain brand of toothpaste.

It's your revelation above that in one sentence you claim brotherhood and equality doesn't run to including gay people in your book.

So brotherhood and equality of what? Old men with a personality disorder?

You really are about as low as anyone can possibly be aren't you? You aren't fit to have a vote in the future of a country you are so out of step with. It deserves better than the likes of you. Luckily, The UK will remain in place and you will be able to crawl back under your insignificant stone.


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Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM

By the way, Scotland has free access to all aspects of healthcare and is utilised by most people. Using USA figures just makes you look an even bigger chump.

Try using Uganda. It is about as relevant. Hell, a book about aboriginal dental care in Queensland AU is more relevant about Scotland than what you put.

How can you live somewhere 70 years and know fuck all about the place, it's culture, its people?


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