BS: lets develop Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:53 PM

what property deals have you been doing, Musket?

Musket....the man who is to capitalism what Rolf Harris is to childcare...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM

Losses? I will only make losses should property values fall over 50% ish and I decide to sell up. No. Scotland is a decent cash cow, thanks. Never been anything different. In fact, I am driving up next week to look at a few cottages in Anstruther that have come on the market. A German investor is selling his holiday lets and I may put an offer in.

No. I invest in Scotland and help the economy. What makes it delicious is when whinging gits say things like Gutcher just did. Nothing worth saying so make up some shit about losing money in Scotland. I might if and when IMF call it toxic should King Alex I get his Celtic tiger dream, but the people aren't that stupid. My investments are safe.

I have yet to condemn lots of people, mainly because they are not relevant to this thread. If you think Scottish MPs have a more altruistic approach than English ones, I'm afraid I can't help you. I can only deal in reality.

A Scottish bloke disagrees with the treasury figures? Not surprising as they often are less than fully accurate, but as they have the figures and Salmond doesn't, or refutes them without reading them, I repeat..

The people of Scotland need to have the facts presented before making a decision. Whilst ever we see contradiction by both sides, whilst ever Salmond says The UK and EU will change their stance whilst he will keep to his.... It is voting with a blindfold for short term personality politics. The future of Scotland is more important than a fool's ego.

No wonder he was booed the other day. No wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:04 AM

Al Whittle. The man who is to music what Lord Franklin was to cartography.

If you sold a few more songs and got a few more gigs, you'd probably sink the proceeds into property too Al. Most successful heros of yours do.

The pathetic hypocrisy of chippy buggers who whine about the trials and tribulations of making a crust on the music threads whilst berating those who got off their arse in the BS threads are worthy of ridicule. I just provide it, that's all.

Our posts crossed it seems. Gutcher confused me by saying I had failed in something. I stopped failing in 1985 when I stopped having others decide my future and started ploughing my own furrow. Dunno what he is on about. I do rather well out of my Scottish investments. Having such a stake, I tend to also have my say and my say doesn't seem to strike resonance with romantic nationalism.

The songs above are wonderful eh? Did you know , North Korea has a satellite constantly broadcasting patriotic songs? It too reckons people respond to propaganda through music rather than analysis of information.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM

You want info on EU, here's some:

Agenda: Legal arguments that would keep Scotland in the EU after a Yes vote
Joanna Cherry
Wednesday 2 July 2014
In its White Paper the Scottish Government argued convincingly that an independent Scotland would remain a member of the EU after the legal route that is available under Article 48 of the Treaty of the EU.

Both Graham Avery, veteran EU negotiator and European Commission Honorary Director General, and Sir David Edward QC, former British judge at the European Court of Justice, support the plausibility of this route. It would be the UK Government's obligation to table a proposal for the amendment of treaties under Article 48 to take account of the fact Scotland had voted to become independent.

The other EU countries would require to agree to the amendment which effectively would mean that Scotland would continue to be a member state. They would be likely to do so for practical reasons. Scotland is EU's largest oil-producing nation, also boasting 25% of Europe's renewable energy potential. The Spanish fishing fleet, among others, fish extensively in Scottish waters. Is it really likely that the other member states of the EU would want to be deprived of the benefit of Scotland's oil, renewable energy potential and fishing stocks?

Lawyers for Yes consider there is a second powerful legal argument for Scotland's continuing EU membership after a Yes vote. This argument is based on the right of people living in Scotland to continuing EU citizenship. It also received support from Sir David in his evidence to Holyrood.

The argument runs as follows; Scotland is part of a member state and has been for more than 40 years. Accordingly, all the citizens of Scotland enjoy the benefits of EU citizenship. It would not be acceptable in terms of the EU treaties for Scotland's citizens to be stripped of EU citizenship and all rights that go with that status simply because they had exercised their right to self-determination in a legally constituted referendum. An expert on European Law, Aidan O'Neill QC, although not one of our number at Lawyers for Yes, has written: "The fact of continuing EU citizenship of the formerly British national residents of an independent Scotland seems to me to be a trump card in any negotiation for the territory of Scotland remaining within the EU, albeit now represented as a distinct Member State by an independent Scottish Government."

Two recent decisions of the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Justice lend support to this argument by asserting the importance of the status conferred on nationals of member states by the Union rules of citizenship. In C-135/08 Janko Rottmann v Freistaat Bayern, judgment of March 2, 2010 it was held that an Austrian man who had moved to Germany to avoid criminal prosecution could not have his German naturalisation cancelled if that would leave him stateless and deprive him of EU citizenship. In Case 34/09 Ruiz Zambrano v Belgium, judgment of March 8, 2011, the court held that Colombian parents of children born in Belgium and who were Belgian citizens could not be deprived of their right to remain in Belgium given their status as parents of EU citizens.

The Court concluded that national measures cannot deprive EU citizens of the "genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of their status as citizens of the union". Lawyers for Yes therefore believe that, according to law, Scottish citizens cannot have their European citizenship suddenly withdrawn. We also believe that, no matter how long the negotiations take for Scotland to become a full member state, Scotland will not find itself outside the EU.

If there is a Yes Vote, it follows, both as a matter of law and realpolitik, that Scotland will not be taken out of Europe against the wishes of her people. By contrast, in the event of a No vote, there is a very real possibility this will happen if David Cameron has a mandate to hold an in-out referendum. Such an eventuality seems increasingly likely after Ukip's first place in the European elections in England and the UK Government's histrionics over Jean-Claude Juncker's appointment as President of the European Commission.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM

Err.. That's a SNP political opinion paper. It cannot be a White Paper in the legal sense as it inflicts legislative commitments that no independent Scottish government can enact. Add the legal opinion they received regarding the paper that you conveniently forgot to mention. It cannot be put to parliament for adoption.

You can't wave that at intelligent people, it is fodder for idealists.

Next.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:34 AM

Al.
The amount of investment in the North Sea oil industry since the Scottish election of 2011 has been widely reported.

Mr A. Darling, the front man for the No campaign in Scotland, changed his address from London to Edinburgh on four occasions when C.O.E., also widely reported. This I understand is called "flipping"

The Muskets nom-de-plume is derived from a hawk, in his case I would say as in one of our old saws "A hawk out of a bad nest".
It would not surprise me if he resembled the Laird of the Ettrick Shaws descendents and they
did not own a furr of ground in the hail of braid Scotland.

Check out the story of the laird of the Ettrick Shaws in the archives of the S.o S.S. in Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM

Musket, the article was written by Joanna Cherry QC, a former lead counsel for Scotland's Lord Advocate.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM

My comment was written by a professor.

Next.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:53 AM

No EU Membership
No EFTA Membership
No NATO Membership
No Currency Union

The referendum to be held on the 18th September 2014, the one that the SNP wanted to hold in 2010 illustrates their total lack of preparedness demonstrates how unfit for purpose this crowd of second raters actually are.

If I was given the task of trying to persuade any group of people to choose one course of action or another I would at least have the commonsense to work out in detail the answers to what would generally be perceived as being the important questions, so that when asked I could give answers that anyone in that group of people could independently verify.

The SNP's approach? Trust us it will alright on the night? Take our word for it. What they are asking the electorate of Scotland to do is to buy a pig in a poke.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

well of course they are.

at least the pigs still in the poke - no one really knows what it will be like. there is the distinct possibility that it will be a nice pig.

the alternative is that you put up with the likes of Musket, this man clearly knows everything, he's a professor,

who are you going with - Sherlock the pig in the sack, or Professor Moriarty.
personally I'd go with the pig every time ....better manners!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

I've never been to Scotland, is it any good ?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:08 PM

Better than knowing fuck all Al.

Mind you, they do say it is bliss.

The naivety of peddling a paper by someone with both feet in the yes camp, who professionally gives views for a living isn't exactly objective evidence. Hence pointing out it is about as useful as me knowing a bit about something unrelated or Al knowing what an upside down mix is. (They don't have them where he lives now.)

Mind you, I do have manners. Something Al is increasingly forgetting these days. Probably his age...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

Any road up!

You started this thread suggesting accommodation in Scotland was crap!

If you don't mind fending for yourselves, some bloody good cottages hint hint.. Cottages4u have a few. Kingussie, Aviemore, Fife villages perhaps? Howsabout Oban?

No need for Ramada. Just leave the place spotless. Good cleaners don't fall off tossed cabers.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

An independent Scotland's membership of the European Union should be assured with a smooth and straightforward transition process after a Yes vote, a legal expert has claimed.

Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott, a professor of European and human rights law at Oxford University, also argued that Scotland need not go through "a cumbersome accession process as a new member state" and instead could become an EU member by treaties being amended.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM

ould become an EU member by treaties being amended.

Could is the key word there, Jim. Not WILL but COULD. There is no certainty as people have been saying all along. Salmond is gambling with a whole nation. I certainly would not back him.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:43 PM

Think veto.

Think Catalonia.

Think precedent.

Hang on, I'll ask a legal expert..

Rover?!

Woof?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:51 PM

SCOTS can expect to remain ­British citizens if they vote for independence, the UK Government has conceded.
From the Home Office:

In its latest analysis of the consequences of independence, focusing on borders and citizenship, it says it is likely that Scots would be able to hold dual Scottish and British nationality.

The next generation of Scots would also be British, the paper suggests, as children inherit citizenship under present UK rules.

Their children would not be British, as British citizens outside the UK cannot pass on their citizenship more than one generation.

As British citizens, Scots would keep their existing passports and continue to qualify for UK consular help abroad.


Holders of British passports would also be EU citizens according to EU rules.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

its just a matter of common sense. England has never had Scotland's interests at heart. its never been more than an afterthought.

Scotland needs government that puts Scotland first. you could say the same for the entire north of England. And Cornwall.

These should be prosperous places. Instead they are neglected.

Nothing is going to change unless the Scottish people get up there and take control. no one is going to change the attitude of a government that have had three centuries to behave better, but choose not to -time after time.

membership of the EU , currency....... this is just so much administrative guff.
the main point is - stay away from serial abusers. don't walk away ....run!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:39 AM

Jim lots of EU citizens live in non-EU countries that does not make the country they live in eligible for EU membership.

Uncomfortable facts that get in the way of your Prof's train of thought:

The country that joined the Common Market in the 1970s was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Should Scotland be idiotic enough to leave the United Kingdom in 2016 then the United Kingdom as an entity does not disappear it will still exist to all intent and purpose. It was the United Kingdom that has been the national entity that has signed up to all subsequent EU treaties and agreements - So as far as the EU is concerned Scotland as a nation simply does not exist and as such cannot be considered a member.

Any country that is offered membership must go through strict and rigorous procedures and it must meet certain criteria. This takes time and without a recognised currency backed by some form of formal currency union independent Scotland must start at the bottom of that ladder, exactly as Lithuania had to.

Any country having gone through that "cumbersome accession process" then has to gain the unanimous consent of all existing members before being granted membership. Musket mentions "Catalonia", well Spain is not alone, excluding the United Kingdom, I can think of at least six other EU member states who in voting in their own national interest would block independent Scotland from becoming a member.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:07 AM

The Treaty of Rome gives power of veto. This, as per the treaty and subsequent ones gives such power to individual states in order to prevent floodgates of small sections of countries from demanding entry. The original concern was the thought of Italy splitting up with a rich member in the North and a much poorer southern neighbour being a drain on all members rather than a drain on Italy.

Of course present and next generation Scots will hold UK passports. Thousands being born in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, USA etc etc have that status. Nothing special there.

I repeat. I may be taking the piss but I'm not in the same league as Salmond and his dangerous adventure. It's one thing to campaign for a better deal for your region , it's another to go it alone with no guarantees of what the future holds but plenty of messages out there about what it doesn't.

If I were living there and voting, I'd look at what OPEC are saying before basing GDP on a single industry in which your price is decided in The Middle East by a committee of sheiks and Texans.

Or at least, for the next few years.

Which reminds me, I wonder how long McSweens haggis lasts in the freezer? Might become a rising investment soon.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:55 AM

More detail:
Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott, a professor of European and human rights law at Oxford University, has added her voice to those legal experts who believe Scotland would retain EU membership post-independence.

She said: "Despite assertions to the contrary from UK lawyers, EU lawyers and EU officials, any future independent Scotland's EU membership should be assured, and its transition from EU membership qua part of the UK to EU membership qua independent Scotland relatively smooth and straightforward.

"It would take the form of an internal enlargement of the EU using the procedure for treaty amendment in Article 48. These arguments are made on the basis of EU law itself, which, it is argued, provide all the resources necessary to assure an independent Scotland's EU membership through EU treaty amendment, and not through a cumbersome accession process as a new member state."

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

The Guardian, 5th July, 2014

UK ministers and pro-UK party leaders have repeatedly warned that the Royal Navy will no longer award major warship contracts to Scottish yards if there is a yes vote because it never builds warships outside the UK. ..................

Meanwhile, Hammond confirmed to the Guardian that work on fitting out the Queen Elizabeth and on building a second carrier, the Prince of Wales, would continue at Rosyth even if Scotland did vote yes in September.

So? Scotland will not get to build UK warships ...... But then again, YES.

More threats exploded.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:13 AM

Still doesn't hold water Jim.

Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty sub-para 4 states:

"The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."

And that independent Scotland is not likely to get.

Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty sub-para 7 states:

"Any initiative taken by the European Council on the basis of the first or the second subparagraph shall be notified to the national Parliaments. If a national Parliament makes known its opposition within six months of the date of such notification, the decision referred to in the first or the second subparagraph shall not be adopted."

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

'
UK ministers and pro-UK party leaders have repeatedly warned that the Royal Navy will no longer award major warship contracts to Scottish yards if there is a yes vote because it never builds warships outside the UK. ..................'

well okay. why not. this is what its about. its not as though English shipyards are doing that well.

lets see where the apples fall. but I reckon the first thing the Scottish government should be on to is chucking out the English landlords who obtained vast tracts of land in a very questionable style in the clearances.

still its up to them. I reckon they could make it work. big place, virtually uninhabited, plenty of land undeveloped. adjacent to a country where you can't buy a litre of petrol without being overtaxed. also theres a lot of yank expatriats, who would maybe like to refloat their mother country - like they did with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:21 AM

"UK ministers and pro-UK party leaders have repeatedly warned that the Royal Navy will no longer award major warship contracts to Scottish yards if there is a yes vote because it never builds warships outside the UK"

Perfectly correct and I think the warships being referred to here are the new Type 26 Frigates - If Scotland votes for independence they will be built in England or in Northern Ireland.

" Hammond confirmed to the Guardian that work on fitting out the Queen Elizabeth and on building a second carrier, the Prince of Wales, would continue at Rosyth even if Scotland did vote yes in September."

Again perfectly correct as they are existing contracts that would cost too much to cancel plus the fact that construction of the Prince of Wales at Rosyth relies on the Chinese crane on loan to the Yard.

Big Al, so pleased that you see fit to advocate the transfer of jobs away from your native country merely on the premise that English yards aren't very good - Thatcher said the same about coal, yet you castigated her for it.

"I reckon the first thing the Scottish government should be on to is chucking out the English landlords who obtained vast tracts of land in a very questionable style in the clearances."

Ah a Mugabe style land grab eh? That would of course do wonders for any foreign investment the new Scottish Government might like to attract.

As for rich Scottish expats? Any rumours yet of Shurr Shawn leafing through Estate Agents literature? Indeed any talk of him returning his knighthood?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:28 AM

Yeah, I'm so scared of Salmond's Zimbabwe style threats, I am in Scotland to increase my property portfolio later this week. Or invest in Scotland as less chippy people call it.

If I had any doubt as to his threats meaning anything, I would be having a sale on, no low bid limit. Instead, I have confidence in a British Scottish counties.

Do you recall the shipyard workers booing him on the big screen when HM The Queen launched the ship last week? She was referred to as Queen Elizabeth II not I for that matter.

The Guardian, as you mention them, conducted a poll recently and most 16 year olds hadn't heard of William Wallace and Jacobean seemed to be a furniture style.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM

"but I reckon the first thing the Scottish government should be on to is chucking out the English landlords who obtained vast tracts of land in a very questionable style in the clearances."

Well, perhaps the Irish should throw out all the Scot plantation owners? The Scots should throw out the Lairds who happily fucked over their own people? Where does it end? Ethnic cleansing? Nice.

The people of these islands have long been fucked over by the rich, and continue to be so. From the highland clearances to the Acts of Enclosure the ordinary people have been treated like utter shite for millennia. Even our higher caste Celtic ancestors treated ordinary folk (that's us) no better than slaves.

The real issue here is there is no trickle down of wealth in the nationless global economy of today. No country in the world can stop the uber-rich from taking huge amounts of cash offshore and out of any particular nation's economy. Cash does not roll downhill, in this respect Thatcherite capitalism has failed utterly (see here, for example).

There is no way as a people we can stop this if we are divided, and be sure this point is not lost in the boardroom of the anti-national corporations of the world; for them any further division of the workforce is to be welcomed. You have to wonder why the NO campaign has been so utterly ineffective, or even had the opposite effect of its campaign aims.

If I were Scottish I'd vote yes simply to get rid of the corruption and influence of Westminster, but it's naive to believe that somehow Scotland has managed to grow a crop of politicians that are any different to those in the rest of the world and are going to work tirelessly for the people and not the vested interests who stand to earn in any way they can from the labours of ordinary British folk.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

An article in the defence publication Jane's with widespread coverage in other business press has once again highlighted the long term security for naval shipbuilding on the River Clyde following a Yes vote in September.

In the article, Geoff Searle, BAE Systems' Type 26 Global Combat Ship programme director, said the company was only looking at a 'single site' solution to build the next generation of warships and that all of their planning is 'based on the assumption that we will build at the revamped Scotstoun facility' on the Clyde.

Mr Searle made clear that BAE Systems had 'no plan B' for the build of Type 26 elsewhere in the United Kingdom' if there is a Yes vote - reflecting the fact that they are ending shipbuilding capacity at Portsmouth.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

Ehmmm Mr. McLean, the go-ahead for the Type 26 Frigate is being held over until after the referendum vote.

At that point Geoff Searle, BAE Systems' Type 26 Global Combat Ship programme director will be told in no uncertain terms that those vessels will be built in the UK not in an independent Scotland. The UK has NEVER had a single vessel built for the Royal Navy in a foreign yard and they will not depart from that doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

I repeat:

Mr Searle made clear that BAE Systems had 'no plan B' for the build of Type 26 elsewhere in the United Kingdom' if there is a Yes vote - reflecting the fact that they are ending shipbuilding capacity at Portsmouth.

So, Teribus, either in Scotland or not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:53 AM

In any event, BAE are not expecting rash stupidity. They are giving the people of Scotland credit for a bit of common sense.

In the meantime, BP are, according to The FT, acquiring bits of planning permission for the land they bought on the coast in Northumberland. You see, it isn't which 90 mile or whatever square of the North Sea has the field, it is where it gets landed, as the Norwegian gas industry realised years ago. BP need to land it within The EU in order to sell it in The EU without tariff. The risks surrounding uncertainty in an independent Scotland are not in the interest of multi national companies. Oh, and a lot of executive style houses for sale around Aberdeen, as most top executives at BP are relocating to their Sunbury HQ near London.

The sooner this referendum is out of the way, the sooner the people of Scotland can wake up to the irresponsible reckless harm the nationalists have caused the country they say they try to protect.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

In August 2011 it was reported that the UK Government, together with BAE Systems, was considering entering into partnership with the Indian MoD and private defence shipyards in India to jointly design and build the Type 26/Global Combat Ship.[25]

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

The Chairman of BP – Carl-Henric Svanberg has made clear that a Yes vote for Scottish Independence would not have "any major implications long-term" and stressed that "our commitment to the North Sea certainly continues."

The confirmation of BP's continued commitment to the North Sea comes after Norwegian oil giant announced that it is to invest £4.3 billion in the North Sea creating 700 jobs in the process, including 200 onshore jobs in Aberdeen.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM

"Mr Searle made clear that BAE Systems had 'no plan B' for the build of Type 26 elsewhere in the United Kingdom' if there is a Yes vote - reflecting the fact that they are ending shipbuilding capacity at Portsmouth.

So, Teribus, either in Scotland or not at all."

Nope Jim, the choice facing Mr Searle will be build them where we tell you or you will not build them at all. In that case BAE will build them where they are told to build them and decisions relating to Portsmouth could easily be reversed.

"In August 2011 it was reported that the UK Government, together with BAE Systems, was considering entering into partnership with the Indian MoD and private defence shipyards in India to jointly design and build the Type 26/Global Combat Ship"

Perfectly correct it is highly likely that Type 26 Frigates will be built for Australia, Brazil and India. Those being built for Australia and Brazil would be built in the UK along with those being built for the Royal Navy, while there would be no problem at all with India building their Type 26's in India.

The one place they will not be built is in independent Scotland. The decision to award the contract will be political as much as anything else.

If Scotland votes YES on the 18th September 2014, then no Government or political party in their right mind will sign all that work away to a foreign country with a UK General Election happening in late spring early summer 2015 - to allow that work to go "abroad" would be political suicide - same thing goes for the Currency Union that Jowly Eck says will happen - absolute political poison for any UK political party.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

Yes, they are committed to The North Sea. But just read your quote from the Chairman again. This time, actually read what he said. Then read what his Chief Executive said..

The Northumberland base may not be needed, but if it is, it demonstrates that an independent Scotland would not have "any major implications" and shows their "commitment to The North Sea."

In any event, Reckless Alex would give them unsupportable tax breaks in order to keep some Aberdeen operations going, so some of the jobs would remain. Just won't pay the welfare, health and social care bills...

Joking apart, I'm not in either camp. I don't want to keep propping up Scottish social costs if there is some bugger else willing to do it. I don't care who runs the bloody place. It has a Parliament anyway. I genuinely don't think the voters have enough information in order to give an informed vote. I also think a stable region of a stable country wanting independence is a laughing stock in these global economy times.

If Scotland were a business, (and in some respects it is,) it would fall foul of the recommendations of The Higgs Report 2003, requiring non executive directors to be familiar with sufficient facts and figures to cast an informed vote.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM

It really is quite amazing that neither of you can make comments without making derogatory remarks about Alex Salmond. I am not a member of the SNP but you really are quite puerile and demean your arguments somewhat.
I expect when a YES vote is returned pragmatism will take over after all the threats and program Fear are dead.
At the moment the MoD use a French firm to supply periscopes and submarine equipment and a German firm to install communication systems. "Follow the money" the man said and BT, as a global company, won't find working in Scotland undue difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

"I genuinely don't think the voters have enough information in order to give an informed vote."

EXACTLY - I couldn't agree more

"At the moment the MoD use a French firm to supply periscopes and submarine equipment and a German firm to install communication systems.

Nothing wrong with any of that the MoD acts on behalf of the British Government (EU Member State) to purchase equipment from two other EU Member States


"Follow the money" the man said and BT, as a global company, won't find working in Scotland undue difficult.

Apart from the fact that Scotland will not be an EU member state - will it.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:33 AM

You think Salmond is leading this without party gain in mind?

What was that tripe about Westminster politicians all being cads and bounders and all those North of the border genuine and trustworthy??

King Alex I of Scotland and The Kingdom of Fife. He'll probably end up deploying troops to the ethnic British enclaves of Ellon and Avimore. UN forces will declare Balmoral a neutral zone.

No matter, plenty of Dutch tourists for my holiday lets and Norwegian students for the Edinburgh tenements, regardless of what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:35 AM

ITALY has effectively declared the European Union's neutrality on Scottish independence as it takes over the bloc's rotating presidency.

The country's European Affairs minister, Sandro Gozi, warned anything said by Brussels officials could be manipulated and said the vote should be up to Scots.

His remarks, couched in ­diplomatic language, mark a clear departure from the stance of former European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, who said it would be difficult if not impossible for Scotland to rejoin the bloc.

Mr Gozi, a former EC official and diplomat, said: "We are not worried by the referendum in Scotland and we have no position on it because they are responsible for deciding their own future.

"We don't believe it is necessary for the European Union to take an official decision in advance and we don't want to have any kind of influence. We don't want to say anything because any word could be manipulated."


He should just ask Teribus, he knows the answer and by the way, Teribus, England might not be an EU member soon, if Cameron and Farage have their way.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Of course The EU aren't interfering. It is a matter for a nation state member's internal affairs.

What has that got to do with anything? The EU cannot comment on an application when there is no country and it hasn't applied! Member states can though, including comment from Spain, on record.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:42 AM

And why won't the UK government ask? Surlely that would end some uncertainty.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:44 PM

If they did, you'd be whinging that they were trying to fetter a vote they agreed the terms of.

Anyway, it isn't a question of law, so no point in asking. It is when an application is forwarded, there is a process to follow and to preempt that process would be to undermine the whole membership system.

That's why Salmond can't ask either.

Or assert he knows the answer for that matter.....

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

This is all getting rather silly, no sensible debate.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:52 AM

And that attitude is what is scary. If enough voters follow the Dylan Thomas maxim of "there are none so blind as those who will not see" Scotland might walk into a disastrous future, all in the name of Rob Roy idealism.

Surely the education system has sown enough seeds to prevent such reckless action? What concerns me is that Cameron only agreed to it on that basis, and his judgement hasn't been seen to be his best asset lately...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:08 AM

As far as I am aware, absentee landlords do not have a vote.
You have no emotional stake in the future of Scotland Ian, you are only interested in protecting your investments.

I hope the first truly Scottish government makes you and your kind squirm.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM

Judging by Salmond's excellent track record on promoting equality, I reckon you and your kind will be doing the squirming.

Everybody in The UK has a stake. The people physically residing in Scotland get a vote, (you do not qualify for a vote by being Scottish, I thought I'd just point that out,) and the rest of The UK has a right to influence, comment and point out folly.

I have an emotional stake and I am not just interested in protecting my investment. Please take that back, worm.

No?

The Scottish government has been attracting investment and I assume a hypothetical independent one will too. SNP say they will at any rate. Looks like I will get to squirm alright. Squirm with delight when I complete on three more Fife cottages later this week. I am investing in Scotland. Irrelevant pipsqueaks like you should be grateful, not bitter. Anyway, train to Waverley tomorrow morning, on to St Andrews, get my pen out, have a nice night in one of my favourite hotels drinking with my youngest who is coming up with me, back on Friday. You can't stay there too long in case you bump into one of the 0.0001% similar to Akenaton.

Oh, you can't help being bitter. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:42 PM

From Dougie McLean's excellent album "Indigenous", the song "Thundering in" relates the unsympathetic attitude shown to Scottish history, culture and people, by the money rich, emotionally starved, invaders from the South.

"Thundering in"




You found chances in this place
To build upon your affluence and build upon your grace
You'd have come sooner if you'd known
Now you're brushing up the velvet and the beads upon your throne

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering

Once the old ones used to meet
With stories told before the fire the whisky tasted sweet
You did not want them to be seen
Now you're polishing the vinyl on your video machine

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering

How can you repay them for stealing their pride?
For stealing the place that they keep deep inside?

So you'll move these ancient stones
You'll cut away these green and spreading towers that have grown
And when we ask you where they've gone
Well, you polish your excuses for the made man must move on

You come thundering in
You come thundering in
You want and you're taking plenty
And all the things that we knew
You've plundered them through
And you'll drink till our cup is empty
Blindly thundering.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM

The great man himself.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

Bad link try this one
Dougie McLean

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

lovely track Ake! thanks for that!

he sounds young but he can't be. Caledonia must have been thirty years ago.