BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA

Subject: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:26 PM

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/06/23/detroit_shuts_off_water_for_residents_united_nations_asked_to_help.html

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:41 PM

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/06/20/3451488/detroit-water-shutoffs-complaint/

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:43 PM

http://www.occupy.com/article/apartheid-detroit-water-corporations-not-people

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:44 PM

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/6/24/water_is_a_human_right_detroit

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 08:14 PM

From Detroit Free Press.

323,000 customers.
150,000 delinquent water accounts.
$118 million in outstanding bills

April, 44,200 shutoff notices mailed;
Water cut off to 3025 properties, both commercial and residential.
Targeted are customers who are more than two months late.
65 percent come in to make a payment after water is shut off.

Average monthly water bill $75.00

The city has approved an 8.7% increase in water bills.
The system is old and needs repairs and replacements.

The City is in receivership.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 08:27 PM

The factories have moved elsewhere, and jobs are scarce. Detroit is just one of several cities who have lost their purpose.

After the depression of 1929, Pennsylvania and New Jersey cities faced a similar situation.

Boom and Bust has been a facet of capitalism since the early 1800s; Europe has faced similar situations.
UK- depression in 1857-58, the first global recession.
UK- Panic of 1873 (lasted into the 1890s)
UK- 1010-1921
etc.

Failure of governments to effect controls.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 09:49 PM

First of all, posting four separate article saying essentially the same thing much from a common source is a bit of rhetorical overkill. While acknowledging, as I do, that something needs to be done to help Detroitites, I am adamantly against going to the United Nations for a domestic economic problem. There must surely be ways to take care of this without having 3rd world dictatorships dictating to us.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 10:13 PM

Hi, John. Great to 'see' you posting.

________________________________________

The following site has a really good article about a MIT study of 150 smaller cities that have and are facing the same things Detroit is. Takes five minutes.

http://sap.mit.edu/resources/portfolio/forgotten_cities/

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 10:29 PM

Incidentally, I do not agree with the title of this thread. IMO, capitalism isn't in crisis. The distribution of wealth resulting from that capitalism is in crisis, and that isn't the same thing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 01:15 AM

Richest country on earth. Land of the free.

Keep banging the rocks together guys.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:06 AM

Good article, John. Thanks. We all have our ideologies, but if ideology only leads to either outrage or condemnation, ideologies get us no where. Not true. They get us riots in the streets and repressive legislatures. It is always encouraging to hear about attempts to actually solve problems and especially when those attempts have incremental effectivenss, as imperfect and as ideologically impure and therefore offensive as they may be to those who are married to "no solutions but the perfect solution and the perfect solution is mine" (be it to the left or to the right.)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:26 AM

I agree with Guest of 10:29. Personally I think that Capitalism has many built-in flaws but I don't see this as a crisis of capitalism. Unless you mean that the devastation of Detroit came about because of the built-in flaws of capitalism culminating in 2008, in which case I would agree with you.

(I don't understand what you are saying, Janie.)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:27 AM

The Cat is being a bit squirrelly, btw. My above post, admittedly not profound, did not take after 3 tries. finally cut and pasted it it to Pages, refreshed the thread, then copied it. For those who suspect they are being censored on occasion then lied to about it not happening, please note that. Might be more interesting and erudite if boring observations such as I usually post were censored, but no one has ever believed that "boring" gets censored then denied on Mudcat. It is not unusual for posts simply to not "take."

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:32 AM

Janie, I think you were referring to Richard Bridge in your praise of the article. On his behalf, thank you.
John

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:57 PM

We do not need to bounce back and forth between the extremes of unfettered, corrupt capitalism and inefficient, corrupt socialism. We can admit that some people do much better under capitalism, which is my belief...and that some do not have the necessary skills, resources or personalities to navigate it..I am probably more of the latter group. We can arrange things so that people who need more structure can have places of employment that they do not have to seek out..giving them as much choice as possible of course..this would work for people with certain handicaps, people with lower energy, sometimes people with less education and skill training..there could be all sorts of greenhouses, small dairies, construction and maintenance projects in places like Detroit...and I think there are...

The true creative capitalists should not be stifled, but they should of course be regulated to avoid abuse of the environment or people. Capitalism does work very well if somewhat restrained and if properly taxed with profits diverted to the common good. The other group of people, on a quasi-socialistic plan, can provide superior food, lodging, health care, etc. for elements of society that can not obtain them otherwise. The poor should be a resource, as my Detroit roommate said, rather than a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:18 PM

Perhaps the poor should be thought of as people. Capitalism does not do that.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:19 PM

Capitalism is people in action.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:23 PM

Not really about capitalism, this is all about politics-this quote, from this article, gives a good summary.

How Detroit Went Broke

"Detroit is broke, but it didn't have to be. An in-depth Free Press analysis of the city's financial history back to the 1950s shows that its elected officials and others charged with managing its finances repeatedly failed — or refused — to make the tough economic and political decisions that might have saved the city from financial ruin.

Instead, amid a huge exodus of residents, plummeting tax revenues and skyrocketing home abandonment, Detroit's leaders engaged in a billion-dollar borrowing binge, created new taxes and failed to cut expenses when they needed to. Simultaneously, they gifted workers and retirees with generous bonuses. And under pressure from unions and, sometimes, arbitrators, they failed to cut health care benefits — saddling the city with staggering costs that today threaten the safety and quality of life of people who live here."

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:26 PM

Sorry Ebbie. Was referring to the link to the MIT study made by Guest at 10:13pm 6/24

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:38 PM

Richard Bridge & Musket- since it is so clear to you how the US is failing, perhaps you can explicate in some detail what we should do to solve these situations... and do, please, clarify how the UK's policies & overall system is superior.

As you formulate your replies, keep in mind the 'interesting' details of our Constitution, the position of the US Supreme Court, and the recent Gerrymandering of voting districts to ensure that such problems as Detroit is facing will continue to be decided by extreme Conservative values.

(ummm... we had one Civil War over similar value systems that Michigan is facing- we'd sort of rather not go that route again. Perhaps you'd like to reclaim your errant colony & 'administer' things?... as soon as you have dealt sensibly & fairly with YOUR immigration problems, independence movements by Scotland & Wales...etc. Let us know...)

what..me? sarcastic?... naaawwwww..

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:38 AM

I give you a Thumbs Up, Bill. No sarcasm meant to onlookers, of course. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:52 AM

When I lived in Detroit as a kid in the 1950s, it was a beautiful city with all sorts of amenities one might not expect. Schools and libraries were excellent, as was the park system. I loved visiting downtown Detroit with its amazing skyscrapers and the ore boats gliding down the river. Belle Isle Park and the Detroit Zoo were amazing. And the city was safe - I could ride two or three miles from home on my bicycle, and I wasn't ten years old yet. My younger sister and I rode the city bus to visit my grandmother many times.

It was a first-class city - but first-class cities are expensive to operate. Once industry left Detroit, what was the city to do? There were no jobs, so the people moved away.

I last visited Detroit for a family reunion four years ago. I spent a week visiting places I remembered. The suburbs were still prosperous, but the City of Detroit has very few places where anyone would want to live.

It's a shame.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM

Bill. It's simple.

The business of America is business.      Allegedly.

So what happens when business leaves town?

Oh.. Hadn't thought of that one. They thought the rest of the world was interested in V8 guzzlers made from tin foil and styrene. The sad truth is, Detroit with its rather stunning automotive heritage spent the glory years making cars at a loss and hoping to cover the margin with the finance spread. Nobody outside of The US wanted them so it was a self serving industry.

The Detroit I used to visit on business regularly in the '90s was unsustainable and even then, business leaders were holding their breath waiting for the bubble to burst. And burst it did. Sadly and spectacularly.

That's the problem with capitalism. It has to be real.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 09:45 AM

Globalisation means we are faced with a sort of stateless uber-capitalism. Companies are now able to effectively ignore borders as they operate in an economic sphere that's almost separate from the countries it operates. By basing specific operations in certain locations they can avoid paying the taxes they owe, can exploit cheap labour markets that are largely unregulated. They have leverage in the government lobbies of the world that we as citizens can only dream of, and can act with impunity and ignoring any moral, social or ethical considerations.

Here in the UK this means we are now competing with far east labour markets; slowly but surely workers are drifting back into the sort of rights our ancestors suffered under in Victorian times. Zero hour contracts (essentially casual labour), wages that are so low they don't keep up with inflation thus condemning increasing numbers of working people to poverty. As for the workers in the far east, they're reduced to sewing labels into Primark clothes to send messages to the outside world.

This type of capitalism, unregulated and allowed to do what it wilts, means democracy is essentially dead. We can pay lip service via elections and the like, but we all know we're getting the same sort of person in whatever. No politician dares speak against these anti-nationals (as opposed to multi-nationals), they commit crimes and take our money and no-one gets prosecuted. They are unregulateable in terms of pricing etc, and are answerable to nobody.

What this actually means for the future I dread to think; basically we're powerless consumers herded like cattle to our eventual demise: and we pay for everything along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM

Tame runaway corporate control of America through socio-capitalism

byProgToddNorCalFollow

"The industrial revolution brought us our current model for capitalism, and it has served us relatively well for over a century. Yes, the system has had its flaws, yet somehow we have always managed to recover.

But the parameters have changed for the 21st century. From Reagonomics through to the Bush era we've received a near lethal dose of the worst aspects of capitalism. The current level of corporate power would make even robber barons jealous. And finally America has woken up to this. Between the Occupy movement and the recent elections, the rumblings towards fixing a broken model have grown louder and gone more mainstream.

The problem with capitalism as it now stands is that large multinationals have a disproportionate influence on politics, media, the economy, the environment, and the middle class. These corporations have slanted the tax, anti-trust, and environmental laws further in their favor with lobbyists. Corporate profits are through the roof, yet CEO's salaries have gone even more stratospheric because taxpayers have had to shoulder the external costs of these behemoths. We pay the healthcare costs for those stricken by their pollution, or in the case of oil companies, the cost of our military's protection of American tankers in the Middle East.

Add to this picture the fact that many board members receive most of their compensation as stock options, which under current law are only taxed at 15% as capital gains rather than 39.6% as regular earnings. The end result is that we've created a class of super-rich where the top 1% in America hold 65% of all wealth.

""Throughout time, massive income disparity between the haves and have-nots has been at the core of how civilizations collapse. Our current corporatist tendencies push us towards that brink; it's a downward spiral that is hard to break.

This is how runaway capitalism can be our downfall, and it's a hard rut to crawl out of. Since a corporation's key goal is to maximize profits, CEOs and board members have a fiduciary responsibility to game the systemvia these aforementioned lobbyists. Wolves in multiple henhouses are part of the multinational business model.

But what if we find a way to use the forces of each CEO's own greed to help benefit society rather than leech from it? What if tax rates vary dramatically dependent on how well a corporation treats its employees, its physical neighbors, the environment, and society as a whole through the quality of its products or services?""

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:22 AM

Christopher Meyer produced an interesting perspectivebon runaway capitalism, and potential fixes.


Runaway Capitalism 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:58 AM

Musket- I didn't ask you to give some cursory description of Detroit's situation. You posted a short slap at the US in general:

"Richest country on earth. Land of the free.

Keep banging the rocks together guys."

Right-- really helpful.

In the 50s & 60s & into the 70s, those big V-8s were a natural response to post-war exuberance, cheap oil, the creation of an inter-state highway system and a country 3000 miles wide. Detroit sold enough of them here to make huge profits.

(insert long analysis of globalization & rise of Asian imports here)

The country is still wide & deep, but it's not easy to change all our habits & paradigms overnight.... especially that" Land of the free " part. Companies ARE free, in general, to cope with changing demographics and international trade as they 'think' it will work. Some of the obvious tries do NOT work.
You were invited to clarify what would work.

In the meantime, the American auto industry is "banking together" smaller rocks, and doing pretty well, considering we have to drag certain parties kicking & screaming into a saner business model. (insert long review of political idiocy here)

So.. any substantive suggestions? Or just more empty condemnation?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:40 PM

Well cutting off the water is because the supply of water is seen as a business. Try thinking Hugo Chavez.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:51 PM

Interesting that in the UK, the American companies Ford and General Motors hold 1st and 2nd place in sales.
Volkswagen is 3rd, and BMW and Audi tie for 4th.
Most of the British industry and market is held by non-British concerns.

The auto industry provides what the people want, large or small, and still do.
Companies based in Detroit (not only automotive) moved out because they wanted new modern factories and cheaper labor, which they found elsewhere. The old site (Detroit) was unable to come out with anything that would hold industry there.

For a time, the American auto industry, along with many other industries, was in severe depression, 2008-2012, but they are profitable again. Bailouts were needed (Germany was another who supported large companies in trouble).
World-wide, sales in all industries were down and unemployment swelled. That downswing is correcting itself.

The Detroit suburbs, as Joe says, are still prosperous as many other businesses are located near the City itself, but they use people who are skilled for work outside the assembly line or have other skills and education. Like Denver and some other cities, the well-to-do gravitate to suburbs, not city centers. Detroit is left with people unskilled in new work areas, no income is generated to support the city, and so the City rots.

Large city infrastructure is expensive to maintain. In the U. S., it is cheaper to move and start over in a new site. This is a grave fault in North America, and government action and the will of the people is needed to change that situation.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:51 PM

"Interesting that in the UK, the American companies Ford and General Motors hold 1st and 2nd place in sales.
Volkswagen is 3rd, and BMW and Audi tie for 4th.
Most of the British industry and market is held by non-British concerns.

"The auto industry provides what the people want, large or small, and still do." Q

What? Nobody wants the American automotive products? Assuming that Q's stats are accurate, it appears to me that the Brits' disparaging comments stem from disdain born of jealousy at little brother having become too big for his britches.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:08 PM

A combination of Ford and GMs early production history in the UK and growth through mergers and aquasistions likely contributed to their recent success, versus Toyota's growth strategy, more organic in nature, takes more time to bear fruit.


Part of the UK auto story 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM

Yeah but Ford doesn't sell American cars here. Ford are affiliated to The American Ford, who are shareholders and nobody has even heard of General Motors. They own Vauxhall in the same way banks own them. They build and sell far different cars built to far different standards. Our cars are more expensive but believe me, having spent a fair proportion of my working life driving rental cars in The States, there is a reason ours are more expensive.

Ford and Vauxhall are British and European cars. Toyota design and sell in The UK. BMW design and sell their British brands here.

My point is that exports drive economies, and nobody buys American cars. We take the piss out of them. When An American car is reviewed on Top Gear, they make a point of driving between Lincoln and Scunthorpe on the basis of the longest stretch of road without a bend, as suspension was never the strong point. Most cars made in The States fail European safety and emissions tests anyway. Most of my trips over start with arguments at the rental desk until they put the Chrysler keys away and get the German ones out.

Detroit is based on the American dream, not the American reality. A bit like your sport. World Series? I genuinely cannot recall whether that is baseball or American football. It certainly ain't World. That isn't a cheap comment, it is an indication of unsustainable attitudes that simply do not work.

I make no argument for what used to be British cars. Most manufacturers design and research here and that feeds the economy, just no longer feeds the jobs, sadly. Our car industry was awful in the '70s and '80 s with government owned British Leyland trying to learn from Detroit, thinking everybody would buy poor quality if you could sell an image. Jaguar is far better off and far better cars now they are owned by Indian money.

Come to think of it, we don't buy spray on cheese from you either.

For the record, I drive BMW and Mrs Musket drives Mercedes. When I was looking to buy last year, I can't even think of an American model in the sector I was looking that merited consideration. Jaguar, Audi, BMW, Mercedes... Nope. The only car America had to offer was the Chrysler 300, I looked in the showroom, sat in it and declined a test drive. The only thing you could say in its favour was last decade's Mercedes parts in the engine. The build quality was absolutely shocking. If I want to drive a shed, I may as well take a couple of axles up the garden and start converting one.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:34 PM

Kinda funny Musket, as to what cars are best suited to different local conditions. The local memories of Vauxhauls and British Ford brands from years ago are scary, and haunt those brands locally...they rusted so bad, and just so soon.

Where I live, North American brand cars have notaproven to be as resiliant as Japanese and (recent) Korean brands. Obe example I recall in recent years is a GM introduced Australian model, the Epica, , while it may be seen as a good car in Australia, it was proven to be "a piece of crap"in our local conditions.

Generally speaking, most German cars don't seem to do very well over the long-term in the local conditions where I live (excluding the VW diesel engine). While engineered well, repair bills can drive you to the poor house (beyond the warranty period, that is) if you arent rich. As to the other brands, French,Italian, British-branded, or the rest....the may be suited to the local market, but can't meet our extreme climate and road demands

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:37 PM

Of course I was referring to company ownership. There is little British company ownership involved in British car sales.

American-made cars are built for the longer distances and highways of the U. S. and Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:27 PM

"American-made cars are built for the longer distances and highways of the U. S. and Canada." Q

Yeah. We don't like driving with our heads scraping the roof or our knees under our chins.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:30 PM

There is something to be said for Mr. Bean cars:)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 12:36 AM

Sure, Ed. In the right places and circumstances.

Musket and Richard, et al, I would be interested in thoughtful and well informed, solution oriented responses from you, and anyone else with a good grasp of the complex issues to Bill D's query. It is obvious that these are tough situations without easy answers. Those of us who care and are foundering for viable solutions are eager for suggestions. Not just possible realistic movement toward solutions here in North America, but around the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:22 AM

Janie. I already said it.

Keep banging the rocks together.

Stop selling the dream, people tend to wake up from dreams.

In the words of Dick Gaughan

I heard a lot of talk about the land of the free
So I went to see it for myself
But what I found was misery and poverty
In a land of incredible wealth

They have a thing they call a constitution
To defend your civil right
That's provided you have plenty of money
Are Protestant male and white.

By the people for the people
That what Lincoln vowed
But what the hell would Abraham Lincoln say
If he could see America now?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 02:44 AM

Ye gods. I just wonder what an impartial person would say about the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:02 AM

Well, I've listened to Dick Gaughan on YouTube now- love his voice. Not too sure he likes the UK. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:26 AM

He made me laugh when he said "if the English want their independence, let them have it.."

He is an idealist, nationalist and slightly to the left of Lenin. However, he is possibly one of the most wonderful guitarists and to have a voice that is in itself a musical instrument, he is really gifted.

I did once have him crawling up the wall but wind up is all I can offer, not having his talent.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:43 AM

Don't ask for breadth folks, Ian is a "one trick pony"

You have to look hard at Capitalism, see where it prospers and WHO prosper from it.
Under Capitalism, the system is ALL....any benefits are incidental, or designed to keep the system operating at perhaps reduced efficiency.
Its purpose is to enrich the few at the expense of the many, it depends on theft of resources and exploitation of labour to survive, it disguises these tactics by cloaking them clothes of "democracy" and "equality.
It is aware. When the necessary conditions no longer exist for its survival it moves on, leaving the debris we are beginning to see in the UK and the US.
The East will be its new home, the West will be the new Third World....and god help us!
At least you Yanks still have your wonderful optimism and naivety(in a good way).....I think and hope that you survive.

Whats to blame?......well we know don't we? We all think we can will the lottery :0).

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 07:03 AM

Ye gods! I agree with the Pharaoh!

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:46 AM

Runaway capitalism sure works for a few;)

Capitalism in action in Canada 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:29 AM

Interestingly enough Bridge, although I slightly recognise where he cut and pasted part of it from, I just can't quite understand what it has to do with me.

There again, I don't suppose he does either.

If you see capitalism as a concerted conspiracy theory, (which it can't be by mere definition) then you need a producer and a consumer in order to cream off the top and bottom. As the East needs to produce and the West isn't quite so willing to accept the sweat shop conditions the East offers, it is in the interest of the multinationals for the West to remain consumers.

Economics 101 really.

The worrying widening gap between rich and poor merely shifts the emphasis on which goods to sell, (Volvos in Kent, faux leather bus pass holders in The North, pacemaker monitors and deep fat fryers in Scotland.)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 10:52 AM

Socialism bankrolls capitalism 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 11:07 AM

Check out number three:)


Five top capitalist countries 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 12:18 PM

"For the record, I drive BMW and Mrs Musket drives Mercedes. When I was looking to buy last year, I can't even think of an American model in the sector I was looking that merited consideration. Jaguar, Audi, BMW, Mercedes...

I'm not sure that anyone with both Mercedes & BMW in the family ought to say much about capitalism. (What..no Bentley?)

I have no problems with Mercedes & BMW. I'd love to drive either one.... or a Landrover.. For the record, *I* have never owned a new car. I have owned & driven older VWs, Volvos.... we are now at 120,000 miles on a 2002 Ford station wagon.

Y'know, Musket... there is a limited market for Mercedes & BMW & similar cars....something about the capitalist system. Why would we TRY to compete with entrenched German engineering from the MOST capitalist country?

------------------------

The point is: I am not arguing with your choice of vehicles... or even with your ability to afford them. I am just tired of the years of generalized America Bashing from 'over there' by guys who can only see he down side of our system & its cultural vagaries. I see issues with ALL cultures & countries, but I prefer to spend my time seeing the good side of them.

I ask again... explain, please, exactly how the UK is so superior.... and why you and Shaw & others feel the need to point fingers on a regular basis.
(we can even get American beer that rivals anyone now.)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:02 PM

"I ask again... explain, please, exactly how the UK is so superior.... and why you and Shaw & others feel the need to point fingers on a regular basis." BD

Even they don't know. Kind of like the political right-wing conservatives in the US- they spout but cannot explain.


:) (Kind of)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 01:11 PM

So RB , you have read Super Capitalism?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM

Musket trying to defend British cars (or so I read his comments, and then saying he and his wife drive the German BMW and Mercedes.

(Oh, well, my favorite car, which I passed on to my son as a collector's item, was a BMW coupé. He drives a Porsche Cayenne. The other son drives the BMW-Mini and a Japanese SUV.)

BMW has a plant in Spartanburg, South Carolina.
Neither one of us is reliable since we drive German marques (I also have a Jeep Cherokee, ideal for comfort in the Rockies and Foothills).

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 02:21 PM

It's called class. You either have it or you don't. We do this side of the pond. You know what? Hollywood keeps telling us we have.

Live with it.

What my choice of car has to do with capitalism I don't know? Mrs Musket and I worked our bollocks off for what we have. She still does for that matter. Always in the public sector, possibly one of the few surgeons of her speciality who doesn't do any private work. You say you haven't ever had a new car. I have. I never said my car was bought new (although it was) but you assumed it was, and that is interesting. I was saying less than nice things about capitalism yet the Bentley and capitalist dig was there, wasn't it?

I love The USA. I have right of residency and many many friends over a number of States, and I visit regularly. Most people I know have a sense of humour, but the rules are the rules. Take it seriously and it just gets worse. Spray on bloody cheese... Ye Gods.

That's part of the answer to your question. In The USA, everything has a price.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 02:26 PM

Ebbie writes, " Kind of like the political right-wing conservatives in the US- they spout but cannot explain."

I think the problem is that most liberals and vitually all ultra-liberals cannot understand. They think of people as puppy dogs, needing the constant care and feeding from government.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 02:38 PM

" Spray on bloody cheese... Ye Gods."The Musket

I would agree with you but so far as I know, I've never seen 'spray on' cheese. Probably in common with many another American.

Class, baby? Truck full of instant mashed potatoes?

lol

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 04:49 PM

Never tried it. Instant mash was an American import some used to buy in the '70s so far as I know.

Q. Read where I pointed out my dismay at British Leyland before saying what I defend or otherwise. The more intelligent here noticed I was pointing out that without export, industry is ultimately doomed and the export end of Detroit has never really existed. Most American manufacture never did RHD which killed Asian and British commonwealth exports before you even got to build quality, engineering and raw material.

I have a Triumph Stag, a '70s British Leyland GT. You can sit in the garage staring at a wheel arch and despite careful restoration, you can almost watch the rust coming through. Take it for a spin and have fun seeing how long before it overheats. Yes, I too can have affection for junk. My BMW 5 series has no soul whatsoever, no character but no faults.   Fucking Germans.

Ditto her SLK.

I fully accept the soft suspension and high torque gas guzzling engines are suited to long distance wide roads and The USA has plenty of them, but that doesnt help sell exports.

The last SUV a rental place insisted I took American was when I drove up from Boston airport to Killington Vermont. I took a Dodge Durango (?). As I said, keep banging the rocks together eh?

Still, the indignation expressed about me taking the piss does show a sense of national pride that is as ever, a credit. It's just that the credit is running out in places.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:19 PM

Spray on cheese...were you at a US of A bawdy house, by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:25 PM

Durangos do suck, as most chrysler products do.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:38 PM

"Instant mash was an American import some used to buy in the '70s so far as I know." The Musket

I guess what you are saying is that the mash truck that recently befell a mishap was a very old one? Couldn't find a buyer, no doubt. Class does show, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:15 PM

nuts! Lost a long post! I am usually more careful...we'll see if I'm up to re-doing it tomorrow

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 01:01 PM

Musket, why export cars when you can place factories for them in all parts of the world and give the locals what they want?

GM, Ford (and VW) are the three biggest sellers in China.

Sales from American factories in Europe are tough, but in Germany Opel and Ford did well, ranked in sales behind VW, Mercedes, BMW and Audi in 5 and 6 positions at 204,000 and 193,000 resp.

In the UK, Ford placed 1, 3 and Vauxhall no. 2 in sales in 2013; tough opposition from VW.

All this is digression, but capitalism in Europe as well as N. Am. is on the rebound; flawed but the only game in town.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 02:43 PM

If one coukd only capture one percent of the Chinese and Indian vehicle market and profit by only 1000 a unit, I suspect it would be a success story.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 10:54 PM

Someone finally drew a little blood from Musket. Who'd have thought it would be over a couple of cars?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:09 AM

Where?

I'm stood here with a sticking plaster and nowhere to stick it, unless I can email it over Q's mouth?

China sells cars in China. Ford Europe export the most by volume and VAG by value, mainly exports of luxury cars from The UK.   

You know, there is a company in Houston TX that was founded in the '30s, been manufacturing industrial goods all over North America and a fairly decent worldwide market through agents. Every employee is American, to include a few Mexicans in that of course and it bumps along nicely.

By Q's logic it is as British as Yorkshire pudding. On the flimsy basis that my company relied on it for parts that it held patents on and times were tough so we bought a controlling interest. Whilst retired from the business side now, I still hold majority stock.

Of course, it is far more British than our Ford is American. Mainly because I own it, it doesn't own me.

See? The problem with Detroit was unsustainable image. It made parochial cars for a large parochial market that is, like everywhere else, realising there's a hell of a lot better out there for your money.

Capitalism failing or consumer choice succeeding? If The USA is home for business as it claims, it can have no reason for moaning about the effects. Make sustainable goods that people want and hey presto.

My iPhone says "designed in California." That's all you ever need to know about a successful Chinese economy.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:31 AM

usa vehicle exports to China 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:35 AM

Background figures of motor vehicle production by country.

motor vehicle production by country 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:52 AM

An interesting developmentbin the auto production world, Thailand a challenge to Indias auto production growth.

Thialand emerging player in auto manufacturing 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:00 AM

Q. True except let's just point out Ford Europe bailed out Ford Inc. Opel, (GM in Europe to include Vauxhall) wasn't in a position to bail out GM.

You can't point out UK sales and point to America. They are different companies building different cars for a different market.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:01 AM

Where did that come from?

An early draft!

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 01:32 PM

More digression.
No crisis in U. S. auto manufacture.
Ed. T's figures show that the high stakes game in motor vehicle sales is China.
Some details-
1. VW 183,000
2. Hyundai 84,000
3. and 4. Nissan + Toyota, 91,000
5. and 6. Buick and Chevrolet, 124,000
Ford, 73,000 sales set for 2014.

Ford is building its 5th factory in China, playing catch-up to GM, which has 12% 0f the market.
GM is investing 12 billion, including a 1.3 billion dollar plant to make Cadillacs. GM Shanghai plant has 13% of Asian sales. GM is aiming at a total of 5 million cars/year.
(Total China sales all makes now about 22 million/year.)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:45 PM

Not building in The USA.

Case rested.

Belguim built Ford Kugas are sold to China though.....

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:58 PM

It seems that the future car is an international game, with many of the old tariff barriers worked outnor crumbling.

A major concern seems to be quality, beyond design, as workforce isdues have noof been worked out, in all cases.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Danny Joe Morrisimo
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:59 PM

The prodigious number of liberal morons in the country is the foremost danger to the U.S.A.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:19 PM

When I buy a car, I like to know where it is made, as much as what badge is on the front.
Quality in design can be negated by poor workmanship, as has been experienced in some locals by all brands, seeking to get an advantage from a cheap workforce (in addition to access to new markets).

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:19 PM

So.. You allow the likes of Danny Joe Morrismo to purchase guns eh?

How are you getting on with those rocks I gave you?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:38 PM

Send more rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 01:26 PM

Capitalism is doing just fine. Thing is, too many people are broke.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:43 PM

a perspective from one of the .01 percent 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

One side of the tracks - people without homes.

The other? Repossessed homes with no people in.

Er?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Ed T, that is an excellent and insightful article. Thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:46 AM

House demand is up. Some friends who bought up housing at depressed prices are reaping a rich harvest.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

Q ably points out a fault and considers it a virtue.

I thought I was a dirty rotten stinking capitalist but life is full of surprises.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

Truer words was never spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 12:00 PM

"Capitalism is doing just fine. Thing is, too many people are broke."

That is capitalism. You need poor people to build your stuff cheaply so you can sell it on at a profit. Inequality is built into the system. Someone has to suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 12:07 PM

Jus pointing out that rise and fall of commodity prices are carefully followed by investors. The effect on subsections of society is inevitable.

Presently, unemployment is at 6.1 percent. The bottom 4 percent of this section is effectively unemployable.
Capitalism is alive and recovering rapidly from 2008. Some controls are in effect, but more will be needed.

A problem exists, however; the middle income group is being squeezed and no one seems to have a solution. The purchasing power of this group is reduced and is having a negative effect on the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:37 AM

There is nothing wrong with Capitalism... in abstract theory.... just as there is little wrong with Communism.... in abstract theory. (And, there is nothing wrong with labor unions... in abstract theory.)

Trouble is, almost any institution tends to desire as little regulation as possible and to maximize its influence and ability to control.... which almost invariably leads to some degree of abuse.

In the US, labor unions fought for years to get recognition and power to combat the repression of corporations; then when they did, they often became as greedy & corrupt AS the corporations.... and thus lost much of their influence.
Now, with the help of the Conservative packed Supreme Court and less regulation, the cycle is starting over.... with certain hard to clarify differences due to the WWW and international trade.
At the same time, there is a new movement for increasing the minimum wage which is gaining strength... and the predictable resistance from many businesses.

My point? ALL institutions need regulation to keep a sane balance on things, but those who care little about "sane balance" work very hard to become the active force in the regulation! There are SO few voices trying to advocate a balanced system, as most ... on either side... just spout hyperbole about their side of the issues.

One of the latest revelations is that the Koch Brothers, who have billions to play with, have been busy donating to many colleges & endowing chairs in areas designed to tilt the playing field towards NON-regulation and **free market** commerce (translation: "we get to do anything we want")

King Canute had it easy...

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM

Ed T, much you say is true. The sane voices in favor of regulation and moderation are drowned out.
The loud, strident voices must be met by sane political parties who can explain to members how balanced economies can be achieved- and members (the public) who do not idolize "big winners."

Somehow, the best we can hope for is muddling through, with periodic casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

Capitalism is not the problem....corruption is!
Communism is not the problem.... corruption is!
Socialism isn't the problem....corruption is!

...and as long as they keep firing us with lying rhetoric, we FAIL to see the REAL problem...and turn one against another!!!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

The Koch charities deserve a thread to themselves, many of which are supportive of "economic freedom."

Others support cancer research, nature conservancy.

The latter tend to disguise the first.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:14 PM

The only issue with that would be to accept Goofus is presenting a solution rather than a problem. For once.

Looks like you are going to have to look further....

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:28 PM

Corruption is corruption...simple as that. Can you name ONE honest politician?..If you think you can, maybe it's only that his/hers corrupted lies have corrupted your minds, as well!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:41 PM

I can think of a honest politician or two this side of the pond and I am sure there are some your side too.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

"Can you name ONE honest politician?." just one?

Bernie Sanders...

just retired after 30+ years Barney Frank

I can do more.. in fact, as far as I can tell so far, my own Representative, Chris Van Hollen, fits.

In 1978 in Kansas, I worked for the campaign of Dan Glickman who served 18 years, then became Sec. of Agriculture and a respected member of the Intelligence committee. I heard of some who disagreed with him, but never heard anyone accuse him of dishonesty.

It is not necessarily the case that being in politics automatically means 'dishonest'.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM

Barney Frank????!!! You've GOT to be kidding!! Read his record with the housing outfit...corrupt as the day is long!!...Dan Glickman??...Oh, you mean the guy who voted for the health bill, and didn't even read it???...after he swore to uphold the Constitution???..and represent the PEOPLE...instead of his 'party' who was in the pockets of the insurance crooks??...and big pharma..Jeez, just shows you how belonging to a party, causes one to use talking point excuses, in place of the truth!

BTW, nobody is mentioning the 'truthfulness' of our fearless leader!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

"Read his record with the housing outfit.."

Well that's vague enough! You know something I don't? Explain it...clearly.. or post a link


".. the guy who voted for the health bill, and didn't even read it?"

?? What health bill? Glickman has been retired for years. Now in private sector.

" the 'truthfulness' of our fearless leader!"

You first...like certain NON Democrats, you throw mud, hoping some will stick. I debate and/or research specifics, not impassioned arm waving.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:03 PM

All politicians are dishonest, they know the nature of Capitalism, which is cyclical, but never impart that knowledge to the "lumpen electorate"
Capitalism, to work well for the few cannot be regulated, when conditions become difficult, finance moves on to greener pastures.
Capitalism uses stolen resources and exploitation of labour to generate profit, when resources become too expensive and labour rates and conditions become unsustainable, Capitalists invest elsewhere.

What happens to the "lumpen electorate"? They live on "monopoly money," watch Big Brother on TV, listen to Justin Beiber, play the lottery, eat junk food and DREAM OF EQUALITY!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:06 PM

Dan Glickman has not been in politics since 2001.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:46 PM

Barney Frank......check it out...HE even admitted that he is corrupt

Here's a bit about Glickman...(besides the Pigford mess):

"Cong. DAN GLICKMAN (D-Kansas)
In the Clinton administration he became head of the Department of Agriculture. BCCI/Banca Nazionale del Lavoro were implicated in a huge Atlanta scandal where billions of U.S. dollars disguised as "Agriculture" loans, were used by Daddy Bush to supply weapons to Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein. Glickman was reportedly part of the coverup.   

Cong. ROBERT MICHEL (R-Illinois) When faced with an apparent Chicago U.S. Bankruptcy scandal also involving his son, he left Congress.

Cong. RICHARD DURBIN (D-Illinois)      


U.S. SENATE

Here is the reported payoff list of U.S. senators, as of 1990.

Some have since retired or lost elections. Senators....



Steve Symms (Idaho)

Richard Shelby (Alabama) **

Wyche Fowler (Georgia)Alan Dixon (Illinois)

Orrin Hatch (Utah) **

Hank Brown (Colorado) **

Larry Craig (Idaho) **

David Durenberger (Minnesota)

Mark Hatfield (Oregon) **

Howell Heflin (Alabama) **

Daniel Inouye (Hawaii) **

Alfonse D'Amato (New York) **

Wendell Ford (Kentucky) **

Tom Harkin (Iowa) **

Robert Kasten (Wisconsin)

Dan Quayle (Indiana)

Donald Riegle (Michigan)

James Sasser (Tennessee)

Richard Lugar (Indiana) **

Patrick Leahy (Vermont) **

Sam Nunn (Georgia) **

Robert Graham (Florida) **

[** indicates currently in office] [[Note: As of 1995]]"

He appears to be one of those guys who, while working for Bush's corruption, does not get attacked by the 'right'....

More on this scandal and the Bushes

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:19 PM

Patty Murray, Maria Cantwell, Jim McDermott, Jamie Pederson, for openers, some legislators I know personally. But I could go on and build a pretty long list.

There are a lot of honest politicians.

Smartass cynicism is a dead-end street. It's easy to simply say, "Oh, hell, they're all just a bunch of crooks." But it's the sign of someone who doesn't bother to think come election time. If he votes at all.

It takes some intelligence and awareness of what's going on to pick out the honest candidates from the rest and vote for them. Dismissing them all is the lazy ploy of someone who feels he can shut off his mind (if any) and go out for a beer, while other people are deciding who should run the country.

That doesn't stop him from incessant bitching and complaining, however.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM

Posting a link to Yahoo search results in which all of the links are iffy no-name sources is not a ringing indictment against Barney Frank. People can say anything - it's finding the reputable sources that is the challenge. Try to come up with some of those.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:36 PM

I find the post from Gfs scurrilous.

Accusation after accusation, no sources or explication.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:51 PM

SRS: "People can say anything - it's finding the reputable sources that is the challenge."

Then pick some you think would be reliable...there are sure a lot of them!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:26 PM

A reliable source for YOUR claim, Goofus.

It's the person making the assertion that is obligated, when challenged, to provide a reliable source, NOT the person challenging the assertion. (Philosophy 115 - first year Logic).

YOU made the statement. YOU back it up.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

The problem between smart questions and foolish answers is quite like the problem between foolish questions and smart answers.

Neither arrive at the meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:15 PM

"Glickman was reportedly part of the coverup.   .."

By WHOM? You presented no clear evidence by anyone asserting that he was involved in ANY scandal....

GfS...most of the Yahoo links in your search about Frank are 404s. Most of them are also spurious claims by right-wing mud factories.

I am aware that you will CHOOSE to believe and/or repeat any assertion of that sort... especially about Liberals. Get some with some substance or quit huffing & puffing.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

But Bill, do you not think it is dishonest to conceal the true nature of Capitalism?   They ALL do it, "left" and "right", they all try to persuade us that we control capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

"But it's the sign of someone who doesn't bother to think come election time."

Except here in the UK we have discovered a significant number of our politicians were crooks, and it's destroyed the faith of the electorate utterly. Even the 'honest' ones were often on the take, with the exception of the odd one or two. Our MP was one of these thieves and the chap that they parachuted in is a carpetbagger with obvious aspirations to the higher echelons on the party, and won't express an opinion for love nor money (even on local issues), nice chap though he seems.

Of course, another reason they are so utterly distrusted is because they won't regulate capitalism and now the middle classes have twigged they might be on wrong side of the comfort fence everyone is at a loss about who to vote for. This is the reason the right has done so well in the UK recently as they have hoodwinked part of the electorate they are anti-establishment, despite being about as establishment as they come.

Libor, the crash, rigging of markets etc etc etc and not a single prosecution. Nick half a pound of cheddar from Tesco's though and they'll throw the book at you.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

Stu....They know that they cannot regulate Capitalism.
Capitalism is free to roam anywhere in the world in search of victims why should it allow itself to be regulated?
I only really benefits the few with a Capital stake.....no one else really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

Well gee golly, ake,... I believe it is dishonest to do many things that we humans do in order to elbow their way around in various circles.

I also believe it is careless, lazy thinking to 'find' simplistic, knee-jerk answers to extremely complex issues. "They ALL do it!" is a way to avoid even looking for ways to elect those who do NOT do it.

I am aware that access to economic & political power can tempt many to abuse their position. I am also aware that honest politicians must of necessity play by certain rules & learn to compromise and adjust their thinking in order to compete with the obviously dishonest ones. Think: "50% of something is better than 100% of nothing"!

In the US sadly, it is very difficult to get elected without being a good fund raiser... or at least having backers with deep pockets. But one former Senator from Wisconsin, William Proxmire actually refused to accept campaign money in later campaigns. People did not always agree with his votes and reasoning, but no one could say he was 'owned'.


Another one from Wisconsin, Russ Feingold, followed similar paths.

During his 1998 re-election campaign, Feingold once again eschewed big-money campaigning, despite the fact that the National Republican Senatorial Committee had targeted him for defeat.[57][58] Feingold placed a cap on his own fundraising, refusing to raise or spend more than $3.8 million (one dollar for every citizen of Wisconsin) during the campaign.

Both of these... and more I could list... did much to counter the "everyone does it" culture- but they knew they had to work within the system.

It is very hard to work for campaign finance reform when the big money that wants to control things keeps electing those who will vote against it. It seems to be even harder for many in the electorate to bother LOOKING for guys like Feingold & Proxmire... and former Senator Wayne Morse of Oregon...etc. JUst so much easier to wave one's arms and chant.."It's hopeless... they're ALL corrupt!"..hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

SRS: "People can say anything - it's finding the reputable sources that is the challenge."

Then pick some you think would be reliable...there are sure a lot of them!

GfS

You think someone here is going to fall for that challenge?

You want to take on Barney Frank, you do the work. But not the half-assed stuff you've presented so far. Why are only those sources appearing? Because you are being lazy or you can't find evidence because it doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM

SRS: "You think someone here is going to fall for that challenge?"

Only IF they are really interested in pursuing the whole story, and getting to the truth...problem is, as seen here, is that those who are hook-line-and-sinker into an ideology are going to cherry pick whatever 'news' source they WANT to believe, while dismissing anything seen as critical of 'their' chosen ideology....that's WHY I posted the page with ALL the links.
While pretending to be for one side or the other, once money and/or favors enters the scene, as a way of bribing, influencing, covering up, or obligating legislators, whether they claim to be liberal OR conservative, that corrupted practice IS a form of 'capitalism' at its worse!...AND ultimately results in freedoms being taken away from the people who these phonies are SUPPOSED to be representing!...and instead, what we get, is policies that are dictated, in alliance ideologically, to allow such corrupt behavior....and have people look away, as if "My side is 'winning', so it's excusable because it's for the 'right cause'"....when in reality it is corruption, and it is wrong, and those who think otherwise have become foolish, in their own 'wisdoms'!!!

These people in government are SERVANTS of the people, NOT RULERS!...using their feigned pretenses for their own advantage.
It happens on both sides...because the corrupt perpetrators are not stupid enough to only go after 'one's' side' They need BOTH, to control the national dialogue, and 'resolve the problem' with a compromise, not in the interest of the people..but for themselves. Meanwhile, WE have to 'settle' for policies and laws, regulations and freedom choking, while they make off like bandits!

It's on BOTH sides, and often working with each other, to create an illusion that caters to the ideologues. Just take a look at what has been happening all around you for the last few years...including the past administrations, both parties!

If you'd (or anybody) would get off their ideological high horses, and stand for the truth, no matter where the chips fall, this would be highly visible, and easy to see with clarity.
But as long as you try to fit the corruption, and look the other way, because you THINK it is working on 'your side's' benefit, you are self deluding yourselves, and are tolerating the destruction of all of our freedoms.

Like music...do you only like one kind, and the rest are 'no good'???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:18 PM

See post by Don Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM

The reality of Democratopia. Democrats have been in charge of Detroit since 1962, not Capitalists.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

"Only IF they are really interested in pursuing the whole story, and getting to the truth.."

Sounds like the fabled 100MPG carburetor we used to hear about. All the conspiracy folk KNEW it existed- they'd heard about it (from each other) for years! The reason it wasn't available because it was hidden by "Big Oil". It was clear that we had never seen one... because it was hidden!

Once a certain crowd is absolutely convinced of a plot or characteristic, they see only stuff that reinforces their belief- even if the argument is almost totally circular. Then, any items that do seem to fit their theory are hammered as 'proof', no matter how few or significant.
I could list a hundred counter examples to "they all do it", and it would make no difference, because the conclusion is already foregone.... and any you couldn't find problems with are just sneakier than the others. (They are probably complicit in hiding that carburetor.)

and round and round we go...

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

Same applies to you, Sawzaw.

Back up your allegation with solid, verifiable documentation or be relegated to the same waste basket as Goofus.

I'm sure you can find some stuff like the World Net Daily or a number of Republican or other Right Wing websites who will back you up, but--

I said solid and verifiable documentation. Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly ain't gonna cut it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

...from a branch of The Toledo Times, dated today:


"The last time Detroit had a Republican mayor, Germany was the only country whose imported cars threatened the American auto industry, the moon was not a place where any human beings were expected to set foot any time soon, and African-Americans in the Deep South didn't eat in the same restaurants as whites.

Detroit's last GOP mayor was Louis C. Miriani, a son of Italian immigrants, who served from 1957 to 1962. By the time he left office, the Republican brand was ebbing in Detroit, one of the country's most Democratic-dominated cities.

"The last mayor considered to be a Republican would have been Louis C. Miriani," said Berl Falbaum, a former Detroit News reporter who covered Detroit politics in the 1960s and now teaches journalism at Wayne State University.

The former city council president was defeated overwhelmingly in 1961 by a charismatic, John Kennedy-like Democrat, Jerome Cavanagh — the first of a string of Democratic mayors.

It could be argued that 1961 was the election in which Detroit started on the path that led to its economic collapse 52 years later.

Mr. Miriani was elected to city council in 1947 and, as council president, automatically became mayor after Mayor Albert Cobo's death in 1957. He was elected in 1958. Under Mayor Miriani, a convention hall — later named after Mayor Cobo — and other parts of the Civic Center were completed and the city's freeways, water system, and port were expanded.

Mr. Miriani was convicted in 1969 of evading federal income taxes, failing to pay taxes on $261,000 in income. He served 294 days in prison in 1970 and 1971 and died in 1987 at the age of 90 in Pontiac, Mich.

After leaving office in January, 1962, Mr. Miriani went to work as executive vice president of the Aronsson Printing Co., of Detroit. In 1965, he was re-elected to Detroit City Council but left after his conviction.

Jack Casey, a Toledo native and former Toledo Times reporter who covered Detroit politics for the Detroit Free Press from 1956 to 1962, said Mr. Miriani was not an effective mayor, but that he had a lot of institutional support, including from the United Auto Workers.

"He was a do-nothing mayor. He didn't do anything to solve any problems. He created problems," Mr. Casey said. He said he was aware that Mr. Miriani was a Republican, but that "he did not run as a Republican."

"He ran as a reactionary person. He liked people with money," said Mr. Casey, who went on to work for Mayor Cavanagh and then to careers in radio, television, and public relations in Detroit.

The Detroit Free Press wrote in Mr. Miriani's obituary, "Miriani confronted a series of urban problems that plagued subsequent mayors: rising unemployment and demands for public services, racial tensions, falling tax revenue, and the flight of industry and white residents to the suburbs and other states."

The article — co-written by then-Free Press City Hall bureau chief David Kushma, now The Blade's editor — reported that Mr. Miriani was alternately irascible and ingratiating, considerate to supporters and often impatient and insulting to critics. He said he served no special interests, "only the public interest."

In 1957 he refused to welcome delegates to an Islamic convention because some speakers were "anti-American," according to the Free Press. And in 1959 he refused to attend a welcome for a top Soviet official in Detroit as "not in the public interest."

Mr. Miriani pleaded unsuccessfully for more state and federal aid for Detroit, and tried to deal with Detroit's economic problems by cuts in city spending and services. He rejected demands that the city enact an income tax on residents and suburban commuters who worked in Detroit. Later, the city did institute an income tax.

Mr. Miriani presided over a crackdown on crime that outraged black leaders and mobilized black voters to support Mr. Cavanagh.

The Free Press said, "Black ministers and residents held the mayor responsible and vowed to defeat him. They, along with blue-collar and jobless voters and city employees opposed to Miriani's tight-fisted spending policies, backed challenger Jerome Cavanagh, an obscure 33-year-old lawyer and political novice."

Detroit — like Toledo — has nonpartisan municipal elections, and observers say political party is rarely invoked publicly, especially by Republicans. Mr. Miriani identified as a Republican early in his career but was strictly nonpartisan by the time he became mayor.

Bill Ballenger, a former state lawmaker who publishes Inside Michigan Politics newsletter, said Mr. Cobo was the last definite Republican mayor. His party affiliation can be stated with confidence because he was the Republican candidate for governor of Michigan in 1956, losing to incumbent Democrat G. Mennen Williams.

"There never was much [Republican Party in Detroit] even in the '50s and '60s. There were some councilmen who got elected, closet Republicans, but they're pretty much all gone today," Mr. Ballenger said.

Preceding Mr. Miriani was a series of Republican mayors starting in 1933 with Frank Couzens, John W. Smith, Richard Reading, and Edward Jeffries, ending in 1948. Democrat Eugene Van Antwerp was mayor from 1948 to 1950.

Mr. Van Antwerp was followed by Mr. Cobo, a business executive who was "loaned" to the city to help it through a financial crisis. He served seven consecutive terms as treasurer, 1935 to 1949.

Mr. Cobo won two two-year terms and then a four-year term, dying near the end of his third term. Mr. Cobo had decided not to run again in 1957, and Mr. Miriani was already running in the 1957 elections, having easily led the primary contest the week before Mr. Cobo's fatal heart attack.

Though Mr. Cavanagh upset Mr. Miriani in 1961 and he was a popular mayor, his second term was marred by riots in 1967.

Republican power waned in Detroit just as the city's prosperity and population peaked. Roiling beneath the surface was ethnic tension, between the working class whites and blacks who had flocked to the city for its auto factories.

Mr. Falbaum, 74, said Mr. Cavanagh tried to solve problems that previous mayors tried to sweep under the carpet.

"I believe that the seeds for the riot were planted over the years by other mayors — more conservative, less responsive to black complaints. Jerry Cavanagh, who tried to do the right things for blacks — integrated the police department, responding to black concerns — suffered the worst riot in the country at the time. That to me was a great tragedy," Mr. Falbaum said.

After him came a string of Democratic mayors, including current Mayor Dave Bing.

Conservative writers have cited Detroit as a lesson in one-party rule and Democratic policies.

Columnist Rich Tucker wrote, "One-party government quickly became bad government, featuring a stream of liberal, blue-state policies such as sweet deals for government unions. Now, though, the bill has come due for these liberal policies."

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 03:04 PM

I saw a UFO a couple of days ago!

But to be honest, I need to add a thing or two. First of all "UFO" does not mean a disc-shaped alien space ship from Alpha Centauri Three, it simple means "Unidentified Flying Object."

With prevailing winds, the apartment in which I live is under the landing approach to the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport. The UFO was a conventional commercial airliner, four jet engines, but it was dusk and I couldn't tell whether it was Boeing, Douglas, or Air Bus. Hence, "unidentified."

So I did see a UFO a few evenings ago. That's undeniable.

Especially in politics, people often tend to blurt out a lot of verbiage, but neglect to include the relevant data. Because the whole story negates its propaganda value.

Another point: Goofus and Ake seem to have a great deal of contempt for the voter, the "lumpen proletariat," as to how easily they can be manipulated. Especially strange viewpoint for someone like Ake, who, althought he deigns not to make his position too specific, seems to lean heavily toward Communism or State Socialism, which purports to be for the "common man."

Goofus HAS no political philosophy. He has said so. With him, he hates all politicians.

Convenient way to avoid having to think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

pdq, here's a simple question:   

If the Democratic government of Detroit was so bad, why didn't the citizens of Detroit vote them out and elect Republicans instead?

They could have done that, you know.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM

Good grief, pdq! Do we really need the complete history of Detroit's mayors since the 60s to agree that some were less-than-competent or honest? That applies to Chicago and other places... and we can easily make lists of Republican mayors & other politicians who were...whatever.
   And... having a mayor of one party doesn't necessarily tell you a lot about the details of business in a town. It's relevant sometimes, but any mayor of any town party has to cope with 'capitalism' and help commerce.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 03:42 PM

"If the Democratic government of Detroit was so bad, why didn't the citizens of Detroit vote them out and elect Republicans instead?"

That would be something the voters would have to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:02 PM

Nice dodge, Sawz.....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

Firth: "Goofus HAS no political philosophy. He has said so. With him, he hates all politicians."

What a dumb statement!!!..I never said I didn't have a 'political philosophy'..I said I wasn't affiliated with either 'party'!..There is a difference!

See, a perfect example of what I was talking about!

Oh, and while we're at it, Don, you say, "Another point: Goofus and Ake seem to have a great deal of contempt for the voter, the "lumpen proletariat," as to how easily they can be manipulated.....
...Convenient way to avoid having to think."

Yes they are being manipulated...and I don't hold contempt for them...but I do find manipulating them is VERY contemptible!...
and as far as avoiding people thinking....I'd rather that people take the interest in HOW to think, rather than WHAT to think, as dictated by manipulating crooks masquerading as political activists!!!

..and as to, "Back up your allegation with solid, verifiable documentation or be relegated to the same waste basket as Goofus."

Back up your gene nonsense, instead of relying on the emotional whipping up of unverified speculation!!!

Can't do it! YOUR waste basket is awaiting your patronage!

Oh, and manipulations???....."

Inspector General can not find 2.8 million people that have signed up for ACA. What happened to these people? Where are they? Poof!!! They're gone, no where to be found.

So much for that 8 Million people, count. Another lie that many of Demo's sucked up with pleasure.

They like it when it's given to them with a smile. BTW, there is a new book out now, it's called 'Blood Feud', you Demo's should read.

It's in the top 10 list. Hilary's new book is touching 40 on that same list. I wonder why?
        

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:35 PM

"There must surely be ways to take care of this without having 3rd world dictatorships dictating to us."

The US is already being dictated to by dictators from Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen and other middle East sites and Israel should be included as one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM

"Clinton bristled at Benghazi deception

By Edward Klein

June 22, 2014 | 2:32am

Edward Klein explains what happened the night of the Benghazi attack — and Hillary Clinton's reaction.        

In his new book, "Blood Feud," journalist Edward Klein gets inside the dysfunctional, jealous relationship between Bill and Hillary Clinton and Barack and Michelle Obama. Here, he explains what happened the night of the Benghazi attack.


By 10 p.m. on Sept. 11, 2012, when Hillary Clinton received a call from President Obama, she was one of the most thoroughly briefed officials in Washington on the unfolding disaster in Benghazi, Libya.

She knew that Ambassador Christopher Stevens and a communications operator were dead, and that the attackers had launched a well-coordinated mortar assault on the CIA annex, which would cost the lives of two more Americans.

She had no doubt that a terrorist attack had been launched against America on the anniversary of 9/11. However, when Hillary picked up the phone and heard Obama's voice, she learned the president had other ideas in mind. With less than two months before Election Day, he was still boasting that he had al Qaeda on the run.

If the truth about Benghazi became known, it would blow that argument out of the water.

"Hillary was stunned when she heard the president talk about the Benghazi attack," one of her top legal advisers said in an interview. "Obama wanted her to say that the attack had been a spontaneous demonstration triggered by an obscure video on the Internet that demeaned the Prophet Mohammed."

This adviser continued: "Hillary told Obama, 'Mr. President, that story isn't credible. Among other things, it ignores the fact that the attack occurred on 9/11.' But the president was adamant. He said, 'Hillary, I need you to put out a State Department release as soon as possible.'"

After her conversation with the president, Hillary called Bill Clinton, who was at his penthouse apartment in the William J. Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock, and told him what Obama wanted her to do.

"I'm sick about it," she said, according to the legal adviser, who was filled in on the conversation.

"That story won't hold up," Bill said. "I know," Hillary said. "I told the president that." "It's an impossible story," Bill said. "I can't believe the president is claiming it wasn't terrorism. Then again, maybe I can. It looks like Obama isn't going to allow anyone to say that terrorism has occurred on his watch."

Hillary's legal adviser provided further detail: "During their phone call, Bill started playing with various doomsday scenarios, up to and including the idea that Hillary consider resigning as secretary of state over the issue. But both he and Hillary quickly agreed that resigning wasn't a realistic option.

If her resignation hurt Obama's chances of winning re-election, her fellow Democrats would never forgive her. Hillary was already thinking of running for president in 2016, and her political future, as well as Obama's, hung in the balance."

Obama had put Hillary in a corner, and she and Bill didn't see a way out. And so, shortly after 10 o'clock on the night of September 11, she released an official statement that blamed the Benghazi attack on an "inflammatory (video) posted on the Internet."

The Benghazi Deception was in full swing.

"Blood Feud: The Clintons vs. the Obamas" by Edward Klein is out this week from Regnery Publishing."

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM

I think I'd want to know a bit more about Edward Klein before I'd accept anything he says as Gospel. From what I've read, he hasn't established a very reliable reputation with his fellow journalists.

Klein has been criticized for his biography of Hillary Clinton, titled, "The Truth About Hillary: What She Knew, When She Knew It, and How Far She'll Go to Become President," which was released on June 21, 2005. Politico criticized the book for "serious factual errors, truncated and distorted quotes, and overall themes that don't gibe with any other serious accounts of Clinton's life."

The book was attacked not only by liberals, but by conservatives as well. John Podhoretz wrote in the New York Post, "Thirty pages into it, I wanted to take a shower. Sixty pages into it, I wanted to be decontaminated. And 200 pages into it, I wanted someone to drive stakes through my eyes so I wouldn't have to suffer through another word."

In National Review, James Geraghty wrote, "Folks, there are plenty of arguments against Hillary Clinton, her policies, her views, her proposals, and her philosophies. This stuff ain't it. Nobody on the right, left, or center ought to stoop to this level."

Sounds like Klein has it in for Hillary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 06:13 PM

Only IF they are really interested in pursuing the whole story, and getting to the truth...problem is, as seen here, is that those who are hook-line-and-sinker into an ideology are going to cherry pick whatever 'news' source they WANT to believe, while dismissing anything seen as critical of 'their' chosen ideology....that's WHY I posted the page with ALL the links.

If you make a charge, you find the credible source to back it up. I'm not wasting my time to disprove some nonsense you posted. How difficult is that to understand? Oh, wait, you want people to waste their time following your red herrings.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:38 PM

The CIA guy who was technically in charge and who monitored all the back & forth about Benghazi, explained in tortuous detail on PBS who heard what, who knew what and in precise order... and who had responsibility for what at each stage.

I take it you didn't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 08:16 PM

Stringsinger @05 Jul 14 - 04:35 PM

Your citation of my post, while accurate, provides no context. It was written when the thread was new (June 25), and about the crisis of turning off water to Detroit's poor, despite the over broad title posted by Mr. Bridge. Someone who has not read the thread from the start, and owing to the phenomenon of massive thread creep might not know that.

Your response, today, to my comment, conflates this thread with with the many anti-Israel threads you've posted to previously, because all of your supposed countries dictating to the U.S. are Arab nations, except Israel...which is neither a third world nation, nor a dictatorship except in your mind. I had been thinking in terms of countries primarily in north and central Africa, as well as some of Israel's (a 2nd World country by the way) neighbors, which actually are dictatorships. I was not thinking of in terms of international politics, but in having them interfere in Detroit's local problems.

Now everybody, especially you, has context for my comment and your response, even if they have not read the early posts at this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 09:17 PM

SRS: "If you make a charge, you find the credible source to back it up. I'm not wasting my time to disprove some nonsense you posted. How difficult is that to understand? Oh, wait, you want people to waste their time following your red herrings."

But before that you posted: "Posting a link to Yahoo search results in which all of the links are iffy no-name sources is not a ringing indictment against Barney Frank. People can say anything - it's finding the reputable sources that is the challenge. Try to come up with some of those."

"Like those"???..."...iffy no name sources"??

Pardon me, Ma'am, but all the sources are there, and you should have checked them out, before you you call them ALL 'iffy'...that's WHY
I didn't post just one that I found...because it IS the TACTIC of ideolouges to start to try to discredit the source....so I gave you an impartial first page(there are more pages, too!).
Talk about slinging mud everywhere hoping it sticks...how about deflecting everything and every source...regardless of the charge, and the shear panic of finding out, that you've been manipulated???

Maybe, I'm more on your side than you think....especially if I'm directing you to find the truth!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 10:20 PM

It occurs to me that only one thing is proven when somebody claims that everybody does it and that is that he does it.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 10:27 PM

That's not a rebuttal to what Stilly said, Goofus.

Cite your "authoritative" sources, don't expect other people to go searching for them. That's not the way it's done, except by phonies, charlatans, and con men. And flunk-outs.

Didn't you ever have a high school teacher or college prof who required you to use specific footnotes? Or was that the point at which you dropped out of school?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:07 PM

Goofus, proper documentation requires that you cite the source of your quote or piece of information with author, name of book, and page where the information is to be found. The more specific, the better. That specificity also applies to the internet.

Citing the library in which the book may be found ain't gonna cut it! Nor is posting a whole list of Yahoo or Google citations and expecting people to sift through it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:30 AM

Just a small point, when are one of the mods going to ask Don politely to stop name calling?

It has thankfully almost disappeared from these pages, lets make it history.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

Don Firth--

I would agree with you about sourcing if one were in a formal debate, writing a formal essay or paper, thesis or dissertation. We are not even close to doing that here. When, for instance, I source from the internet, I cut and paste (less often link) the complete address of the website. For purposes, here, that should suffice. As to print material, author and title should suffice. Generally nobody is going to go to and read that source. Your suggestion is really obstructionism, designed to keep people from posting.

A much better suggestion would be to post in good faith, and with respect. Demeaning folks by calling them names, or by making fun of their names is far worse than not getting every jot and tittle for a reference, to my way of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM

Agreed with Akenaton and John of the Sunset Coast.....

As to the others bitching...haven't you ever heard of 'DOING YOUR HOMEWORK'!

I gave you a search page PROVING what I said, and instead of checking it out, you piss, bitch and moan. Why not check it out??

AND..if you don't like the information on the search page, take it up with the website that posted it!.....(probably don't want to because there are TOO MANY telling you the same thing!).

....and if the going gets too tough, SRS will close the thread, in an attempt to keep people uninformed to any input other than the ones the 'bogus crusaders' approve of!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 11:11 AM

While it is likely irritating to some, and seems kinda sophmorish, and in cases likely limits discussion, being upset when a name calling target does not use their actual name seems odd to me.

IMO, the mods could better use their time focusing on those promoting prejudice against groups, (for example homosexuals), across many thread topics.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM

Remember the days when 'folk songs' criticized what was going on, in our countries??? Remember the great lyrics that came out of that era? Remember when they were bringing up things that the 'establishment' was hypocritical about to justify wars, and policies of oppression??...and kept the general public in the dark?....
...Guess what?....The followers of the protests grew up and became the very hypocritical establishment that they once denigrated...and just LOVE to keep people in the dark, except for THEIR narrow minded view of the world through their hypocritical eyes. Remember when the Republicunts were the 'establishment' of oppression??
Guess what??...So are the Democraps.....and God forbid another point of view that just might contain obvious truths in it!!...They're just rabble-rousers...just like before.....

God Save Hypocrites...without them politicians would be out of work!!...and phonies couldn't defend them, and pretend that they are doing something politically correct!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 11:57 AM

Threads get closed when they are reduced to name calling and totally off topic. When they're nasty toxic cesspools. When they're so incredibly embarrassing that civil people hold their noses and tiptoe past. Keep going, GfS, you're getting there.

Don has been asked to stop the name calling. So have all of you. It doesn't seem to work.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

The cycle:
Republicunts try to hold onto yesterday's bullshit...
Democraps try to invent new bullshit....to hold onto
When they grow up, and hold onto the new bullshit, then they become the same thing!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:00 PM

SRS: "Keep going, GfS, you're getting there."

Just itchin' for a reason, aren't you?...but I'm not doing the name calling...just making common sense.

Don't you just hate that?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:17 PM

To repeat: It occurs to me that only one thing is proven when somebody claims that everybody does it and that is that he does it.

A cynical person is not to be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:21 PM

Excellent! Akeanton makes a point but as ever, gets his arse about his face.

Yeah, when are the mods going to delete Akenaton's account? Name calling one person for outrageous or irrational comments on Mudcat is one thing, but name calling a large section of society is quite another. especially when it is a criminal offence to publish it, as posting on Mudcat constitutes where he lives.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

Akenaton has been repeatedly commended for posting links, while keeping it free from name calling...WHILE he was being called every name in the 'Liberal Ideologues Debate Handbook'!
...speaking of 'name calling', Musket, check out how many times you've referred to me as 'Goofus'....and even on this thread....but at least 'Goofus' is far least than your normal itinerary of 'bigot' 'homophobe', 'racist' etc etc....all, of course from the meaningless, 'Liberal Ideologues Debate Handbook'!

Now back to the topic... 'The crisis of capitalism in the USA'...and the hypocrites who brought us into that point!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

Ebbie: "A cynical person is not to be trusted."

We used to say, "Never trust a desperate person."...and my, how the current batch of politicians are not only desperate, but led a lot of this country into feeling desperate, as well!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:45 PM

GfS....I like you, respect your views and value your support when you offer it, but I feel you are being a bit unfair on SRS.
I used to have negative views on her, but I have discovered a woman with a heart and great understanding of the people who make up this forum.
You don't have to agree with everyone to respect them, and SRS has to perform a difficult balancing act, especially in the circumstances which have arisen oven the last couple of years.
I'm sure SRS values your contributions, but perhaps wishes they were expressed in less combative terms.
In saying that I take into account the abuse you have had to suffer over the period and I hope you do not take this as any sort of reprimand. Your views are interesting and often insightful....and as Joe is fond of saying "of inestimable value"   :0)

Best wishes.....keep on truckin'.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM

Ake, I found Maggie very compassionate at times toward Don Firth when he was falling apart, and she closed the thread on his behalf....that being said, let's call a spade a spade...and not look for reasons to delete posts and close threads when her particular political view is being in veritably torn apart with obvious truths.....

...other than that, she's a musician...and that deserves all our love!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

Pulling you back into the forum when you were in the hospital for surgery or a heart attack some years ago, GfS - you've forgotten perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM

Other than expanding "GfS" to "GoofuS," I don't see that I am calling Guest from Sanity any insulting names as some seem to think I am doing. There was a time when GfS was referring to my initials, "DF," in close proximity to the expression "Dumb Fuck," which is not normally capitalized. It was pretty hard to miss that he was being highly insulting. I do not indulge in that sort of uncalled-for nastiness.

Nor have I, with no evidence to go on, accused GfS of picking up women in bars, "knocking them up," and then "dumping them." I have never picked up a woman in a bar in my life, nor have I gotten a woman pregnant and then "dumped her."

So if anyone wants to twit someone for insulting others, I don't think I really qualify as a good target, especially compared to GfS himself, who insists on referring to me, an admitted political Liberal (based on readings in political philosophy and general regard for people) as a "loony liberal," and other expressions of contempt and abuse.

As to sourcing the material one cites as evidence for one's assertions, a bit more rigor is definitely in order for people in general when the assertions are especially controversial. And linking to a whole cluster of websites, rather than the one or two from which one is quoting is an obvious device intended to discourage people from trying to check those sources, because anyone with a life at all does not have the time and energy to wade through a long list of links from Yahoo and/or Google to try to find the source of what someone like GfS is alluding to—if, indeed, it is there at all. It's a ploy to discourage people from checking.

I thoroughly dislike the rude and insulting tone many (most) that these more controversial threads are taking, but on the one hand, I don't believe that an erroneous statement or an outright lie should go unchallenged. And on the other, one certainly has the right respond to personal allegations (and often outright lies) that have nothing to do with the discussion but are simply ad hominem attacks on the one who challenges the assertion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:38 PM

Republicunts

Democraps

Goodbye, thread, the excrement is getting too deep.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:27 PM

Republicunts.

Democraps.

That's the sort of stuff that one might expect from the schoolyard's foulmouthed bully. Mouth full of smut and a head full of empty.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

That's the sort of stuff that one might expect from what they've become!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 08:05 PM

What specific actions has each of these parties taken that you disapprove of? And why do you disapprove? With documentation, please.

NOT some general condemnation, but what actual actions that each of them has committed?

And no simple generalities. Specifics.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM

I personally feel no urgency about proving each and every thing I say..if I want to I will and if I don't want to I won't. It is like trying to do that in a conversation...mg

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM

Mary, the difference is that you aren't making wild claims, suggesting charges exist against people then telling your listeners to go do the work to prove you wrong.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Oh is that a fact??...Check this out....from Don Firth"

From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:24 PM

"Beardedbruce, your post at 16 May 13 - 01:27 PM is a personal attack on me, which demonstrates that you did not grasp what I said.

I said, in response to GfS's claim that The Politico is Liberal, that it is run by a man who was part of the Reagan administration and patently NOT Liberal. I said nothing about the CONTENT of the article because I hadn't had a chance to read it carefully yet.

By the way, I have heard that allegation against Obama before. I heard it on NPR. And they are waiting for more facts to come in before they comment. As any good news source should.

DO learn to read! (And yes, "DO learn to read" IS intended to be an insult!"
..................................

So this has been an ongoing tactic for some time...problem is, had Don and a few others on here BEEN READING, the already documented posts, perhaps some of the bickering would cease, and the things you have asked for, you would have already had the scoop on.I suggest that a lot of the die-hard, so-called liberals' should re-visit the "Popular Views: the Obama Administration" thread...where there is a PLETHORA of documented posts...which, BTW, in the time since they were posted, have proven to be true!!
But as Don posted above: "I said nothing about the CONTENT of the article because I hadn't had a chance to read it carefully yet."

So, I suggest that some of the 'so-called liberals' start actually READING the posts, and stop slamming the poster, and dismissing the posts, just because of your unlearned biases to that particular poster....Such as THIS:

From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:25 AM

"You were talking earlier about kind of dismissing the Benghazi issue as one that's just political and the president recently said it's a sideshow," said Woodward. "But if you read through all these e-mails, you see that everyone in the government is saying, 'Oh, let's not tell the public that terrorists were involved, people connected to al Qaeda. Let's not tell the public that there were warnings.' I hate to show, this is one of the documents with the editing that one of the people in the state department said, 'Oh, let's not let these things out.' And I have to go back 40 years to Watergate when Nixon put out his edited transcripts to the conversations, and he personally went through them and said, 'Oh, let's not tell this, let's not show this.' I would not dismiss Benghazi. It's a very serious issue. As people keep saying, four people were killed. You look at the hydraulic pressure that was in the system to not tell the truth, and, you know, we use this term and the government uses this term, talking points. Talking points, as we know, are like legal briefs. They're an argument on one side. What we need to get rid of talking point and they need to put out statements or papers that are truth documents. Okay, this is all we know."

....and yet if you look at the Benghazi thread, the same old cast of characters, are smearing anyone who was telling you the truth!

...and this:

From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:54 PM

Another oddity is your inability to read facts, reason, or make a post without attacking those you disagree with.

Too bad you are unwilling to share any of "a variety of different viewpoints on the matters under discussion" with us, but I guess you are too busy insulting those that do not slavishly agree with whatever you state."

So, IF the ideologues would just read, follow the sources, perhaps you wouldn't come off as being so illiterate!!!!....and resent someone suggesting that you should do your own homework!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:04 PM

...AND THIS, from the same thread..BEFORE it made national news!!!


From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 13 - 02:28 PM

"(CNSNews.com) - Rep. Sander Levin (D.-Mich.), the ranking member of the House Ways and Means Committee, has joined Rep. Dave Camp (R.-Mich.), the committee chairman, in demanding that the Internal Revenue Service answer by next Tuesday thirteen questions posed by the committee relating to IRS discrimination against conservative and pro-Israel groups and, where relevant, provide all internal agency documents and communications substantiating the answers.

The committee's bipartisan demand for documents includes all communications between the IRS and the White House about the IRS's targeting of conservative groups.

The committee also warns the IRS in the letter not to destroy, modify or remove any of the records the committee is seeking.

This document-and-information demand, sent in a letter dated Tuesday to acting IRS Commissioner Steve Miller, ups the ante from a letter that Rep. Charles Boustany (R.-La.), chairman of the Ways and Means Subcommittee on Oversight, sent Miller last Friday demanding that the IRS provide the committee by today (May 15) not only with all internal communications using the words "tea party," "patriot" or "conservative," but also with the names and titles of all officials involved in discriminating against tea party and conservative organizations.

As of Tuesday, the IRS was not saying whether it would comply with that request from its congressional oversight committee. But, now, the agency must deal with the more comprehensive demand for documents and information communicated directly by the committee's bipartisan leadership.

Camp's and Levin's letter includes a list of detailed instructions explaining to the IRS the scrupulosity with which the committee expects the agency to respond to the document demand.

"In complying with this request, you shall produce all responsive records that are in your possession, custody or control," the committee instructed the IRS. "Records responsive to the request shall not be destroyed, modified, removed, transferred, or otherwise made inaccessible to the committee."

The most striking question that Democrat Ranking Member Levin and Republican Chairman Camp are asking the IRS goes to the issue of potential White House involvement in the scandal.

Specifically, Levin and Camp ask: "Did the IRS at any time notify the White House of the targeting of conservative or other groups? Provide all documents and communications between the IRS and the White House on this matter."

Levin and Camp sent this inquiry to the IRS a full day after President Obama publicly declared that he personally had only learned about the IRS targeting of conservative groups when he saw news reports about it at the end of last week.

"I first learned about it from the same news reports that I think most people learned about this," Obama said Monday at a joint press conference with British Prime Minister David Cameron. "I think it was on Friday."

Levin and Camp also told the IRS that the committee wants all documents and communications relevant to the agency's reported discrimination against pro-Israel groups.

"Media reports have detailed that the IRS conducted special reviews of organizations whose missions involve Israel," Levin and Camp wrote. "Did the IRS undertake special reviews of these and other organizations whose activities contradict or are inconsistent with administration policies? If so, provide all documents relating to these practices."

Levin and Camp additionally directed a question at Acting IRS Commissioner Miller asking why he did not tell the Ways and Means Subcommittee on Oversight about the targeting of conservatives in testimony he delivered to that subcommittee last July.

"In your testimony before the Oversight Subcommittee on July 25, 2012," Levin and Camp wrote Miller, "you were directly asked about the reports that the IRS had been targeting conservative groups, to which you responded 'I am aware that some 200 501(c )(4) applications fell into this category [the determination letter process]. We did group these organizations together to ensure consistency, to ensure quality.'

"It has come to our attention," Levin and Camp continued, "that you were briefed on this issue in May 2012. If at the time of the hearing you knew that IRS personnel had targeted groups for extra scrutiny based on their political beliefs, why didn't you share all of this information with the subcommittee at that time?"

Miller will testify in the full committee on Friday alongside Russell George, the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration whose office has just completed an audit of the IRS on this issue.

Levin and Camp have instructed Miller to answer the questions in their letter and provide the documents the committee is requesting by next Tuesday, May 21."

.........

Instead, you ran him off....when you should have been thanking him!
He was accurate!

GfS

P.S. If you think this took up too much space, Don's silly request would have used megabytes, that he would simply dismiss.

Go back and re-read the posts of that thread...and you may even be embarrassed to some of your ideological brain-lock!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:11 PM

GfS is doing it again, folks. Loading the matter with so much verbiage, both by him and by others, that nobody is going to want to spend (waste) their time trying to plow through it all.

And note that he doesn't identify which thread he is talking about. He expects YOU to go hunting for it—or preferably, just take his word for it. Basically, he's taking you for some kind of gullible fool.

I have worked as an editor for an accounting firm analyzing residential weatherization reports from Pacific Northwest Public Utility Districts for the Bonneville Power Administration and the Department of Energy (translating "governmentese" into coherent, understandable English), and as the news director of a radio station (ABC network affiliate), so I'm fairly adept at distinguishing between the meat and the goat feathers. And that's oftentimes without having to read the whole article. Get the writer's editorial slant, and then a quick scan to see if he actually says what I think he's going to say, and what verification he claims for it, and the job is done. A broadcast news director / news editor has to learn to quickly weed out the chaff from the real stuff, what with all the material he or she has to plow through every day.

I don't have to do a detailed reading of a whole article by, say, Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter, or for that matter, Bill Moyers, to have a pretty good idea of what they're going to say on most any subject. Then, just a quick scan to be sure, and the job's done.

GfS's ploy is to present so much material, much of it totally irrelevant, in hopes that rather than go through all that crapolla, people will simply take his word for it!

Don't fall for it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:35 PM

My apologies to GoofuS. He actually did identify the thread he's cutting and pasting from. It's "Popular Views: the Obama Administration."

But you have to plow a long furrow before he tells you that. And the posts in question are deep in the thread and taken out of context.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM

First you want me to 'document everything' so you can read it...and now you're bitching that you have to 'plow through' it,(as in reading it).

What can I say....that you haven't already......???

But take heart...I didn't call you a name, for it....but don't push it...AGAIN!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:30 PM

Relevant documentation, not seventeen copies of the National Enquirer and a forty-year-old Sears catalog.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:35 PM

Here's some more reading for you.....snap now, and avoid the rush!!!

Will Obama approve the XL pipeline?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 04:32 PM

..Oh, and I forgot..one of the promises included that we would not drill much here..the cover story was given to 'environmental issues'..but that was NEVER the truth..but it was 'given' to the 'liberal left environmentalists..so they could 'claim a 'victory and ally' in Carter and his administration.
So now the 'so-called' left gets 'new concessions'...The environmental issue as raised by Bobert, and many others, will be a 'talking point argument' used, but that would only be used to maintain the illusion that it was ever a 'concern'. Just for public consumption.
Meanwhile, the 'right' blames the 'left' and so on and so forth..back and forth...and the banks laugh all their way through the capital!"

"As I posted before, Henry Kissinger, in 1979, under the Carter Administration made a trade agreement with Saudi Arabia, that if they would buy or Treasury bonds, we would buy their oil. Saudi Arabia, happens to be one of our nation's largest debt holders (2nd or 3rd, I think). I am believing that much of the Mid-East war problems, are being allowed, and/or 'sponsored', to bring the region into an untenable, unreliable source of our oil..THEREFORE...next logical choice..drill here, and blow off the debt owed to the 'soon to be Defunct' Saudi Regime, to whom the promises were made. I think Jordan will see problems first, though. ...and who wins?..The oil corporations and the banks, to whom the money is owed. Where does the oil go?..To China, the other big holder of debt...along with, believe this or not, Mexico.

Now this is what I posted about two years ago..and every day that goes by, I see it taking shape....
..and Bobert, if this is true...it really IS both parties..owned by the folks, that you've been NOT blaming....for corrupting both parties."

THEN THIS PIECE OF FORETOLD ACCURACY!!

Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 12:27 PM

"I've posted some stuff about a years or so ago, that looks more and more related. You may recall my earlier post, in which I put forth, that two countries had to 'go' before the U.S. could get out of the 'agreement' that Kissinger made with the Saudis, back in 1979, under the Carter administration. Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Is it just coincidental that Syria threatened to attack both Israel AND Jordan, if the U.S. took military action against them(Syria)...and now we got this story? If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, I'll post some more on it...but bottom lining it is this: To get out of the 'deal' that Kissinger made with the Saudis, was they buy our Treasury bonds, and we buy their oil, and not drill here. I tend to think, that this has more to do with justifying the U.S. breaking that agreement with the Saudis, and let them being ripped off and just 'holding the bag', as we move forward with the Keystone pipeline...and come off, 'smelling like a rose'. To accomplish it, the whole of the Mideast has to be either 'hostile' to us, or in turmoil. Next part of the story to 'justify' the scam, is the weapons came from Saudi Arabia, as the alleged 19 terrorists, (out of 22)who took part in 911. I remember Bush's speeches about invading Iraq, AND ANY other country where they were, or who were supplied from....somehow, Saudi Arabia just seemed to 'slip through the cracks...repeatedly....but as I posted before,(and you can look it up), the Saudis would be the LAST on the list....and then, oh goody, we get our pipeline!!!
It was a scam from the beginning (a brilliant one, depending on your point of view)..and it's a scam now! That is not to say that the Saudi connection is true or not....but it sure adds 'acceptable momentum'!!!

As 'insane'(?) as ever,

GfS

...and by golly!!....Co-incidence????.....I D-O-O-O-N'T THINK SO!!!


From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Feb 13 - 09:13 PM

So...If Obama does the deal, signs off, and the pipeline gets underway, what would you think of him?
Still the guy you thought he was??

GfS

P.S. Too bad that ideologues can't see it coming!...They're half blind!!

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 10:04 PM

Newsmax, an arch-conservative news "service" that operates out of Florida and makes a specialty of publishing anything that will trash President Obama, whether true or not.

I get that, along with World Net Daily in my morning e-mail, so I can keep up with the latest stuff that the Tea Party is peddling.

Interesting, Goofus, that you claim you have no ideology, favor no political party, keep yelling "A pox on both your houses!" and yet the sources of most of your whining are extreme Right Wing web sites, e-mail newsletters, and similar publications.

Cute!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:43 PM

Foreign Holders of U. S. Bonds

China- 1263 billion
Japan- 1209 billion
Belgium- 366 billion
Carib Bank Credits- 308 " (6 centers, inc. Bahamas, Cayman, Netherlands Antilles, Panama, British Virgin Is.)
Oil Exporters- 255 billion ( 8%; 15 countries, Saudi Arabia is one)
Brazil- 245 billion
UK- 186 billion
Switzerland- 178 billion
Taiwan- 176 billion
Hong Kong- 155 billion
Luxembourg- 141 billion
Russia- 116 billion
Ireland- 112 billion
Singapore- 93 billion

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:47 PM

Above figures from www.treasury.gov (U. S. government)

Norway- 85 billion
Mexico- 71 billion

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:55 PM

GfS, NewsMax is a no-name source that doesn't even have an "about" section to identify themselves. It's more of your dodgy Yahoo results.

Look up the New York Times. The Washington Post. The LA Times. The Seattle Times or the Seattle PI. Look up the San Francisco Chronicle. The Chicago Sun-Times. The Sacramento Bee. Reputable newspapers. Are you afraid of them? Forbes, Time, The Atlantic, some of the reputable European newspapers and journals.

Long cut and paste is frowned on here, and cutting and pasting already too-long entries from other posts is pressing your luck and all just for window dressing. You don't have anything substantive to back up your claims and when challenged all you can manage is name-calling. Your case is bankrupt. You're running in circles. No one should be paying any attention to the nonsense you're posting.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:49 AM

"Look up the New York Times. The Washington Post. The LA Times. The Seattle Times or the Seattle PI. Look up the San Francisco Chronicle. The Chicago Sun-Times. The Sacramento Bee. Reputable newspapers. Are you afraid of them? Forbes, Time, The Atlantic, some of the reputable European newspapers and journals."

Reputable = liberal/progressive? I don't know the ed. position of the Seattle papers, but I suspect them to be on the left as they are in Seattle. All the other named titles, perhaps excepting Forbes, are all left leaning. The LA Times ceased to be paper worth reading years ago, except for the very occasional investigative series.

I notice that you did leave off The Wall Street Journal. They have well thought out, and well written editorials, and columnists of all stripes, but mostly lean right. Could it be because the ownership is Murdoch, although the paper is still run as if it were owned by Dow Jones.? Hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:35 AM

The Seattle Times has received nine Pulitzer Prizes and has an international reputation for its investigative journalism in particular.   Its editorial policy seems to swing both ways, backing a Republican candidate—and the legalization of same-sex marriage in the last State election. And a general tossed salad of candidates and issues. They generally present both sides of an issue.

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer (The Seattle P-I) used to be owned by Hearst, but was sold some time ago. It now has a joint operating agreement with the Seattle Times, but has its own editorial board. As of 2009, it no longer puts out a print edition. Internet only.

With any news source, it behooves one to read or listen with one's brain in gear.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:35 AM

From over here, President Obama does seem out of his depth, but seriously I don't suppose any of us who study politics ever thought he could effect change, even had he wanted to.

The system determines change, not the President.....nor the people.

Look what President Bush achieved, plunging the US into foreign wars, simply because it was in the interests of a few capitalists to do so and that the system demanded a show of strength.

President Obama has a weak administration, and his leadership qualities must be called into question.
The party is riven with divisions and political infighting. The American people have been successfully divided over social issues and the System marches on.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:52 AM

There you guys go again...just as I said originally....SO, I'll go back to this Take your pick ...the UK Telegraph is on the list..is that one good enough for ya'?

Or This:

Jordan is looking like it's next....or at least 'on the short-list'......and if your 'so-called liberal' approved 'news' sources ain't even carrying articles relating to that, then get another source, especially when you SEE it happening, and you were told beforehand, and the 'prestigious' Pulitzer Prize Wonder Papers left you stupid and in the dark....until some spin-master, fluffs it up for you after the fact!
It's going to happen....I said it a couple of years ago, on Mudcat,...then, Mudcat should be up for its own Pulitzer Prize, for breaking the story!!

Remember when I just posted that ideologues are half blind???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

While you were so busy 'attacking the sources' golly-shucks, nobody addressed the content...(seemingly another diversion 'co-incidence')...

It goes like this:

Akenaton: "Look what President Bush achieved, plunging the US into foreign wars, simply because it was in the interests of a few capitalists to do so and that the system demanded a show of strength."

NOTE: "...simply because it was in the interests of a few capitalists..."

"President Obama has a weak administration, and his leadership qualities must be called into question.
The party is riven with divisions and political infighting. The American people have been successfully divided over social issues and the System marches on."

"President Obama has a weak administration..."

I wouldn't say 'weak' that is a narrative given by the synthetically exploited 'political divide'..but rather 'corrupt'...because he is working for the same bunch that Bush did!...and Clinton....

"The party is riven with divisions and political infighting.
The American people have been successfully divided over social issues and the System marches on."

The national dialogue has been fraudulently orchestrated to focus attention AWAY from the REAL players and string-pullers and their motives...the 'political parties' are tools to them...to keep the suckers stupid!

Call me anything you want...but when it happens, just remember your own behavior, and WHY you were so intolerant to the truth!

Meanwhile, of think of names that fit that kind of blind stupidity...but I won't post them...for now!!

Happy Songwriting!

GfS

P.S....ever wonder why nobody's listening??

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM

Typo in other one...this one is correct


While you were so busy 'attacking the sources' golly-shucks, nobody even addressed the content...(seemingly another diversion 'co-incidence')...

It goes like this:

Akenaton: "Look what President Bush achieved, plunging the US into foreign wars, simply because it was in the interests of a few capitalists to do so and that the system demanded a show of strength."

NOTE: "...simply because it was in the interests of a few capitalists..."

"President Obama has a weak administration, and his leadership qualities must be called into question.
The party is riven with divisions and political infighting. The American people have been successfully divided over social issues and the System marches on."

"President Obama has a weak administration..."

I wouldn't say 'weak' that is a narrative given by the synthetically exploited 'political divide'..but rather 'corrupt'...because he is working for the same bunch that Bush did!...and Clinton....and it is according to their schedule, that the events unfold.

"The party is riven with divisions and political infighting.
The American people have been successfully divided over social issues and the System marches on."

The national dialogue has been fraudulently orchestrated to focus attention AWAY from the REAL players and string-pullers and their motives...the 'political parties' are tools to them...to keep the suckers stupid!

Call me anything you want...but when it happens, just remember your own behavior, and WHY you were so intolerant to the truth!

Meanwhile, I'll of think of names that fit that kind of blind stupidity...but I won't post them........................for now!!

Happy Songwriting!

GfS

P.S....ever wonder why nobody's listening??

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

No fucker is reading either...

What, in all that crap is the point you are trying to make?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM

Musket: "No fucker is reading either..."

Do you mean you're the only one that did?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

Gfs, certainly no one should listen to your nonsense. Unfortunately, it has been posted in thread after thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:46 PM

Like my neighbor's Yorkshire terrier, he yaps incessantly, but each and every yap sounds very much like the ones before. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:52 PM

Q: "Gfs, certainly no one should listen to your nonsense."

Well, not if ya' wanna learn something that's outside the parameters of political correct so-called liberal gibberish!....I can see your point of view....

GfS

P.S....'cept what I've been posting, among others, that the 'nonsense crowd' has been shouting down, has been coming to pass..... If I want to be stupid, I'll join your party madness...
.....'But I'm NOT with the 'Party'...I'm with the band!'

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM

""a narrative given by the synthetically exploited 'political divide'.""

Huh? Comprend pas?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:27 PM

Que pasa, No comprende?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:32 PM

Gfs, It is a puzzling grouping of words, that does not have a clear meaning to me, as I attempt to follow the conversation...not wishing to be part of it, mind you.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:40 PM

Ed: ".... I attempt to follow the conversation...not wishing to be part of it, mind you."

OK.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:05 PM

Gibberish.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:37 PM

Thank you for your condensed analysis, of what would normally have been one of your posts!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:07 PM

I almost thought you might have commented on 'The crisis of capitalism in the USA' and how the corruption in Washington, both parties, have been corrupted by it...regardless of ideology...that's for the victims to debate!!...Oh, the theater of it all!

Before a decision is made, do you think the Conservatives whip out a copy of the Constitution??...or the 'so-called liberals' whip out a book of Marx??...Hell NO!..they whip out the ledgers, and figure how much they can profit by promoting a bullshit 'cause', either side..not for money...that's just a step toward the power..which is what the money can get them. The ultimate goal is control....and do you actually think this is just confined to one party????

I remember during the Nixon fiasco, that it was quite obvious...the Presidency was expendable, to gain control of the press's credibility. that being said, who is in charge of what the press releases??...and do you think that it is all true??..Either side??..
Meanwhile, the drugs for guns continued, while remaining covert, complete with plausible cover stories....Iran/Contra, for instance...which got it's start in Vietnam....or even getting into Vietnam in the first place with the 'Gulf of Ton-kin' horse-crap, under Johnson! ..Did you know, that at that time, the oil companies found massive deposits in the Ton-kin Gulf?....meanwhile, during that time, we were transferring guns and other hardware from Vietnam, to the Shah of Iran??....and was the press covering it?? Then they moved their operation to Central America, which morphed into Iran/Contra...while VP Bush's(ex CIA head), was flying the cargo in and out of Mena Arkansas, under Clinton's Governorship.....oh, they're 'buddies' from way back!!....If you think this is 'old' and irrelevant news, maybe it would help explain Iran's present 'attitude' towards the U.S...especially when the U.S. was propping up Saddam, and even selling him chemical weapons....that's how we 'knew' he had them...we had the receipts!...Did you notice, that in the recent 'news' reports, about the 'concern' about ISIS recovering chemicals in Iraq??....Jeez, you would have thought that while we were there, after invading it, for that 'reason' that there wouldn't be anything like that to be concerned about.........ya' think????

I already ran down the oil thing with the Keystone Pipeline, and disrupting the Mideast....but it's all in the timing. Obama is not being weak or uncertain, as claimed by many....somethings take time to mature...and really, isn't it just a matter of time??

This has NOTHING to do with ideologies, and to get your hopes up is just a futile exercise, while their domestic policies are being set in place.

This is not rocket science.

I just hope they like good music!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:14 PM

Pretty limp, there, Goofus. At least try to learn to write a complete and meaningful sentence before you mouth off at those smarter and more articulate than you.

Let me help. Get a copy of "Elements of Style" by Strunk and White. It's a small book filled with excellent information on how to write meaningfully.

Don't say I never did anything for you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:23 PM

Cross posted.

Where did you get the cockamamie idea the Liberals spend time reading Marx? Or that Conservatives give much of a damn about what's in the Constitution?

Another display of your ignorance.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:29 PM

OK..Let me be clearer.....Shut up with the 'condescending' bullshit, and try a civil discussion regarding the topic of the thread.

You say I'm wrong about the corruption in both parties.....offer an adult reason as to 'why'?....when I've provided historically correct proof.
Get out of the 'Avoiding Topics for Stupid Ideologues Handbook', and address the issues of the topic. Your analysis of writing style, is another Dodge...("Wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?").

The crisis of capitalism in the USA in nothing but a product of the corruption that exists in Washington, and their relationships with the multinational/banker/corporations...and BOTH sides are selling out...and still for sale.....(or rent), as in our military.

Care to comment?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:33 PM

Cross posted, with ya'...

"Where did you get the cockamamie idea the Liberals spend time reading Marx? Or that Conservatives give much of a damn about what's in the Constitution?"

Are you being silly, again?...I DON'T think that...I was pointing out what they really believe in...the debate over ideologies is for the victims....

Jeez....and I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, for being able to read and comprehend........(figures you were in the 'news department'..and morphed into a wannabe political activist....but let's not divert too much)!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:39 PM

Ye GODS, Goofus!!

When you get around to asking a straight question without all the attendant horsefeathers, I'll answer it!

Don Firth

P. S. But not tonight. I'm watching a two-hour NOVA on PBS.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:44 PM

He's actually watching 'Sponge-Bob Square-Pants'....(He told me...after all, I believe all news reporters!)

...Well, I got an overdue library book to return, too....after I get it out of my dog's mouth....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:46 PM

Shit...he's already eaten some pages.....Get me Lois Lerner's attorney!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:56 AM

A lot of reasonable debating points from Sanity and nothing but abuse and very lame jokes from Ed and Don?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM

Lurking, personal insults and trolling again Ake.
And, you claim to be " the one" beyond that?
Really showing your "true coulours".
Doublespeak would be more like your perspectives, that are most often cited on Mudcat as "disgusting". Why not choose logical instead?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 12:33 PM

"Reasonable debating points?"

Ake, you've got to be kidding!!

But then, I'm not sure what your standards for "reasonable" are.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:08 PM

No, actually, Goofus, the two-hour "Nova" was on the network of artificial satellites that are scanning the earth and providing huge piles of data to earth sciences about weather systems, ocean currents, and in general, how the earth works. Fascinating!!

Did you know that particulate matter that blows off the Sahara Desert crosses the Atlantic and has a lot to do with the lushness of the Brazilian rain forest? Or that a massive undersea waterfall (cold water sinking) off the Antarctic has a great deal to do with ocean currents? Or a much larger number of underwater volcanoes than they ever imagined are constantly feeding nutrient material into the water for sea life, which in turn.....

Is "SpongeBob Squarepants" where you get your political views?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:19 PM

I re-iterate:

"OK..Let me be clearer.....Shut up with the 'condescending' bullshit, and try a civil discussion regarding the topic of the thread.

You say I'm wrong about the corruption in both parties.....offer an adult reason as to 'why'?....when I've provided historically correct proof.
Get out of the 'Avoiding Topics for Stupid Ideologues Handbook', and address the issues of the topic. Your analysis of writing style, is another Dodge...("Wouldn't you really rather have a Buick?").

The crisis of capitalism in the USA in nothing but a product of the corruption that exists in Washington, and their relationships with the multinational/banker/corporations...and BOTH sides are selling out...and still for sale.....(or rent), as in our military.

Care to comment?"

GfS

P.S. Akenaton: "A lot of reasonable debating points from Sanity and nothing but abuse and very lame jokes from Ed and Don?"

Par for the course.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:01 PM

It is true that there is a great deal of corruption in both political parties and the American people are often presented with a choice between the lesser of two evils. Always has been, always will be.

But this does not absolve the voter from studying the issues and the candidates, then choosing wisely and voting for who they judge to be the best candidate.

It is counterproductive and defeatist--along with downright lazy--to just throw up your hands and declare that they're all corrupt, so why bother analyzing, campaigning, and voting.

As I indicated elsewhere, I DO know a number of honest politicians who are doing their damnedest to serve the American people. They are not ALL a bunch of rascals and crooks. And it is incumbent upon YOU as a citizen to make intelligent choices, then campaign and vote.

To simple dismiss all politicians as corrupt is to abdicate your obligations as a citizen. And chances are you will GET exactly what you DESERVE.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:10 PM

Good post, Don. Most politicians represent what they think their constituents want. By voting, one is selecting representatives that represent their views, at least in part.

The capitalist philosophy is almost a genetic trait in cultures; it is the only game in town, but it needs thoughtful restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

OK, Don..I agree with most of your post...but would like to add one vital feature....There should be a push for the truth, and prosecution for all those who broke the public's trust, by participating in ANY corruption that affects laws and policies to accommodate them or the outcome of that said corruption!

Wouldn't you agree?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:04 PM

"The capitalist philosophy is almost a genetic trait in cultures; it is the only game in town"

Well history disagrees with you there. Modern capitalism didn't even exist before the 1700s. Although trade was widespread before then economies were not based on capitalism, but often on the labours of a large underclass that supplied the goods. Governments taxed individuals or areas in order to generate wealth.

So although trade is as old as humankind, it is very wrong to suggest it is capitalism. Other cultures also were more agrarian in makeup, small communities would survive as hunter gatherers as part of a more balanced system of ecosystem and resource management. There were feudal systems, dictatorships and lord knows how moony other economic systems apart from capitalism.

What are the alternatives? Communism has never been tried properly, socialism needs tweaking to accommodate entrepreneurship and trade, but has greater moral and ethical integrity than capitalism, which as economic system that has started to replace democracy; a revival of feudalism based on wealth rather than birth.

The irony is that the very riches we were promised by the capitalists have never appeared. Trickle-down was a fundamental miscalculation of how the non-redistribution of wealth would occur.

In the end capitalist excesses must be regulated, or the system will fail. We cannot continue to use finite resources to fuel growth because they're, er, finite. We need to remove infrastructure and healthcare and welfare from the control of capitalists as we do with the military, and we need to ensure energy is nationalised for our own security.

So some form of socially democratic system incorporating capitalism would make sense; keep the ability to innovate and develop but encourage long-term thinking.

I'm guessing this won't happen, but throughout history when a small elite holds all the aces, when life becomes difficult or dangerous for people then the pitchforks come out. It's happened to much longer lasting civilisations than that of the modern capitalist states of the Americas, Europe and the Far East.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:48 PM

NOT disagreeing with you!!....However, you posted, "So some form of socially democratic system incorporating capitalism would make sense; keep the ability to innovate and develop but encourage long-term thinking."

We had that, but through corruption and side-stepping anti monopoly laws, that have been weakened, to the point of non compliance...EXCEPT for those companies, and 'special interests'(?) to whom either will not merge, or who are in competition, with the larger corporations, who can also 'afford' to corrupt the laws that were already in place!

And: (Still NOT disagreeing with you).."Well history disagrees with you there. Modern capitalism didn't even exist before the 1700s. Although trade was widespread before then economies were not based on capitalism, but often on the labours of a large underclass that supplied the goods. Governments taxed individuals or areas in order to generate wealth."

"Governments taxed individuals or areas in order to generate wealth."
AND to pay for socialized services.....but that, too, has been corrupted!

By 'Modern capitalism' are you referring to the stock and commodity exchanges?

"What are the alternatives? Communism has never been tried properly.."

China did try it...but until they incorporated a form of 'capitalism', did they flourish economically....BTW, that being said, the U.S. based multinational corporations, have exploited them, and have hurt our economy, by doing trade with them..even with incorporation of slave labor conditions producing the products.

"In the end capitalist excesses must be regulated, or the system will fail."

..and the laws ENFORCED. We had them at one time, but through corrupt practices, 'lawmakers' have been 'persuaded' (read: Bribed) to make loopholes in the laws, that once enacted, get the loopholes closed again, as a masquerade of 'reform'..but long enough to get THEM through the loophole....so it appears to be 'legal', though not right.

As of note, socialism, to some degree NEEDS a form of capitalism to function and fund it...the two can be compatible...but once the balance has been tipped, favoring one side or the other, is when the corrupt opportunists make their move...and at that, fall back on ideologies to gain support!!!

Good post, Stu!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:50 PM

200...or is that $200.00??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:17 PM

Assyrian Profit-seeking merchants were active 2 millennia BC. Merchant capitalism was practiced by the Romans.

Modern mercantilism dates from the late Middle Ages.

People always have looked for a profit. To me, that is the root of Capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:30 PM

Even if you wrote a song and sold it?..or performed it for some money?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:45 PM

There is nothing wrong with profiting, or if one uses it to make more. Where the problem lies is in greed, and hurting other people, and doing so either unlawfully or unethically.

Or in other words, infringing one's will over other people's rights, for one's own personal greed and leveraging one's profits to infringe on other people's freedoms.

Agree?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM

..and ironic as it may be, those who bitch about capitalism, usually do it because they're not doing too well at it!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM

Had to re-phrase....'IT' sounded awkward and unclear.

..and ironic as it may be, those who bitch about capitalism, usually do so, because they're not doing too well at it!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:47 PM

" those who bitch about capitalism, usually do so, because they're not doing too well at it"

If everyone does well, capitalism doesn't work. You need people to be poor in order to balance the books.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM

"..and ironic, as it may be, those who bitch about capitalism, usually do so, because they're not doing too well at it!!!"

Thought I'd put in your missing comma. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

YOU??? adding a comma, FOR ME???.....I'll 'root' for ya'!
I've never misspelled 'root' with route since you pointed that out..a l-o-o-ng time ago...
By the way I've got some more cartoon characters for ya'....

Harry Reid--Farmer Alfalfa (and the mice)
Rand Paul--Woody Woodpecker
Nancy Pelosi--Olive Oyl
Michelle Bachmann-- Betty Rubble
John McCain-- Bart Simpson
President Obama--Mr.Potato Head (without glasses or mustache)
Barney Frank--Mr. Magoo
Paul Rand--George of the Jungle

...and what is 'Ebbie' short for??...I was ruling out 'Ebola'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM

oops..I meant Paul RYAN..(not Rand)..George of the Jungle.....more to come..

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

Boy! Now THERE's a political commentary that'll show Fox News how it should be done!

Bill O'Really? Listen up!!

Don Firth
(the Don Firth who is the real Don Firth)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM

Don't get a twist in your knickers...'Guest, Not Don Firth' is TIA posting under that name....(trying to hide)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:18 PM

Transient Ischemic Attack?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:36 PM

No, Don...the poster named TIA....but I liked your inquiry..it fits!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:00 PM

Mutant capitalism?