BS: Caliphate

Subject: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Can they really just assert dominance over all moslems, and does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:02 AM

It sounds like it might be very similar to the Ottoman Empire....only not as benign.

Nobody can "just assert dominance over all Muslims," since there is no structure, no heirarchy, no pecking order in Islam.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:29 AM

"Nobody can "just assert dominance over all Muslims," since there is no structure, no heirarchy, no pecking order in Islam."

Is that "in theory"? Certainly not in practice (I mean the bit about a "pecking order")

The self-styled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who set the Arabs against the Jews and worked damned hard at keeping that pot boiling for his entire life.

The 12 Old Gits and the Ayatollah in Iran certainly make strides in their assertion of their dominance over their Muslims

Al-Sistani in Iraq and the Shia of Iraq.

And now al-Baghdadi of ISIS or ISIL or whatever you want to call it.

It should be handy having them all gather inside their Caliphate - any trouble - declare it the largest live firing range in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

I doubt my newsagent recognises it.

He'd possibly recognise Teribus's final comment as demonstrating that shocking inflammatory comments aren't confined to wannabe Caliphs though.

There's a disused camp in Poland and blueprints for hermetically sealed sheds if you'd rather gather "them" all there instead Teribus. Get them to form two queues, women and children on one side...

Or maybe your first idea of murdering them in situ might be more fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM

Teribus, that's a shocking and disgraceful remark, even if made only in fun. I agree with Musket, it's no different to the death camp mentality of the thirties. My husband is a Muslim, and inflammatory comments such as yours hurt me deeply.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:10 AM

My sincere apologies Eliza but I somehow doubt that your husband is at this moment in time running about in a "technical" crucifying, beheading and murdering people purely because they are not Sunni Muslims, or even if they are, are not considered "devout" enough.

The Iraqi native Sunni population and tribes of Anbar Province have seized on the coat-tails of this ISIS "invasion" in an opportunist attempt to regain power by destabilising the entire country and threatening all minority groups therein. The publicly declared and clearly stated governance of this Caliphate extends to all Muslims whether those Muslims wish it, or desire it, irrespective of the country where that Muslim community lives.

My remark was not made in fun and would apply to any other region whose inhabitants think that they can host terrorists with an international agenda and spread terror throughout the world by attacking indiscriminately civilian populations - No "Boots on the Ground" merely retribution - it seems to be the only language they understand.

Air power IS the key that will recover the situation for the Iraqi Government, God knows what MANPADS ISIS have acquired from looted Syrian and Iraqi armouries. Don't know about you Eliza I'd rather have those surface to air missiles used up by those terrorists attempting to defend their leadership rather than watch pictures of civilian airliners fall out of the sky on approach to airports close to heavily built up areas, because if that happened - that would hurt me deeply.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:24 AM

And i suppose you will feel obliged to heed the sabre rattling cry of Christian pastors calling on all Christians to hate Muslims.

After all, it applies to ALL Christians, not just the ones who use snakes in their weekly rituals.

Disgusting

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

My husband is in fact Sunni. But, as you say, not a subscriber to the fundamentalist, terrorist brigade. I agree that these war-mongering extremists present a serious threat to world peace. But I don't see that herding them up and killing them is defensible. As with the 'Troubles' all those years ago in Belfast, it will hopefully finally be understood that reconciliation, dialogue and negotiation are the 'weapons' for defusing the situation and removing the Threat. This sadly takes time and forbearance, both in short supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

It has been going on for well over a thousand years, and reconciliation seems further away than ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Well, that's flushed out the truth about KtheA and JerryTerry.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:54 AM

Musket I have never felt obliged to heed the sabre rattling of anyone of any persuasion and I most certainly have not heard any cry of any Christian pastor calling on anybody to hate anybody else - If I were to, I think that I would have the commonsense to ignore it.


Eliza - Who said anything about herding anyone anywhere?

As for the "Troubles" - The PIRA and the INLA had to be fought to a standstill (1985 according to Martin McGuinness) before their "leadership" admitted that their "armed struggle" was getting them nowhere and even then there are still "Republicans/Nationalists" who support the men of violence and are all for continuing indiscriminate bombing campaigns (325 incidents since 1998). Besides unlike ISIS/ISIL clear points of negotiation were evident for all parties/sides associated with the situation in Northern Ireland.

Here by the way is the ISIS/ISIL "roadmap" as seen 5 years from now - and that by no means marks the limit of their plans:

The Caliphate 5 years from now according to ISIS

Now putting that together might step on the toes of a few "Big Boys" in the regions shown:
China
India
Russia
NATO
USA by nature of Articles 5 & 6 of the NATO Alliance.

Generally speaking if someone says they are going to attack you, take it as read that they will, in which case it is usually best practice to prepare for it and forestall the attack by all means at your disposal.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

Richard, what "truth" about me is "flushed out" because I referred to the Sunni/Shia split?
What in my post do you challenge Richard?
What would you have expressed differently?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is rabid. Why so little condemnation of his actions? Neville Chamberlain become part of the national psyche?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM

Indeed he is, guest. But that is not a good excuse to condemn all Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM

I agree with you, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

Teribus feels he would have the common sense to ignore calls from a Christian pastor to hate all Muslims, (unlike Robinson, first minister of Northern Ireland for example.)

Yet in the post above it, he asserts that the call for a Caliphate extends to ALL Muslims.

Presumably, Muslims don't have your intelligence or judgement then? Not even my newsagent it seems. Or many of my friends for that matter.

Bugger. I was getting on with them just fine too.

zzzzzz

Bridge is, and it pains me to say this, right. Flushing now and then stops the turds from floating and causing an unpleasant odour.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:34 AM

"It should be handy having them all gather inside their Caliphate - any trouble - declare it the largest live firing range in the world."

Blimey. Did you actually think about this shit before you typed it, or did you just crap it directly into your computer?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM

what is a celiphate 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

From Ed's link.

"Is the idea of a caliphate unique to ISIS?

No.

Nearly all Sunni political Islamist movements dream of the eventual resurrection of the caliphate, most by political means, though jihadi groups call for establishing it by violence.

It has been the ultimate ambition of al-Qaeda, but while its late leader Osama bin Laden could once claim leadership of the international jihadi movement, he never went so far as to declare himself caliph."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

By the way Richard who is condemning all Muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM

"Yet in the post above it, he asserts that the call for a Caliphate extends to ALL Muslims.

Presumably, Muslims don't have your intelligence or judgement then? Not even my newsagent it seems. Or many of my friends for that matter."

Ehmmmm NO Musket the chap asserting that his rule and that of his self declared Caliphate extends to all Muslims is one Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

Dear old Musket.
He knows he disagrees but can not actually challenge anything we say, so he makes up things we have not said and attacks that instead.

You too Richard.
Can you challenge anything actually said?
Why did you decline to answer what "truth" had been "flushed out" about us from what we had posted?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM

All anyone has to do is look at the proposed map of the so-called 'caliphate' to see that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is just a bit unhinged. He needs to be taken out of the picture asap. ISIS has murdered thousands of Muslims. They propose to murder millions eventually . . . hell, look at the damned map, because millions who live in the countries he proposes to have join his 'caliphate' will die as a result of ISIS imperialism. The sooner he's out of the picture--by whatever means necessary--the better. It is at present a Muslim problem. If he is not stopped it will not remain a Muslim problem, and there there be dragons.

Good to see you once again, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:14 AM

Keith, you should know better by now. Stop trying to provoke a fight. Richard is equally entitled to his opinion/POV. You may or may not like it, but he's a reasonable and often outspoken man. That may grind a few nuts, but so what? Your running fight with Musket carries over to any thread you both post on and it's always one or other of you saying "But he hit me back first." Give it a fuckin' rest, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Keith, you should know better by now.

Now, THAT'S funny!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM

Everyone is entitled to a POV and I enjoy discussing and debating them.

Richard made a statement about me personally but refused to explain what he meant or why he said it.
"Well, that's flushed out the truth about KtheA and JerryTerry"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

Time I think to repeat my post/prophesy of 28/7 which was written before the Caliphate was announced.
Teribus is quite correct, these people(Islamist radicals0, are a grave danger to human life everywhere and should be removed from the equation....First things first, this situation has been brought about by Western "liberal" idiocy and a mistaken belief that "democracy" can be instigated in our interests in Muslim countries.
akenaton......28/7/14.


Although we are at separate ends of the UK political spectrum, I agree 100% with Keith's no nonsense evaluation of the situation in Syria.
The Islamists hate "liberal" western values, even more than they hate other branches of their religion and before long all will be absorbed into an Islamic Caliphate and moderate voices will be silenced.

This is a grave danger and only ideological fools like a few on these pages would consider support of such action.
These people believe all who do not support Islam should be exterminated.
All the Eastern dictators, from Saddam through Gaddafi to Assad, warned us of the danger from Islamist terror, but we preferred to believe that we could set up exploitable Western style democracies in these countries......The result has been chaos and terror.
Our politicians made serious errors in Middle Eastern policy and people like Blair, Hague and Cameron should be called to account.

In Russia, Putin realised the danger of Islamic terrorism having experience of fighting jihadists in Chechnya and Afghanistan, where Russia's defeat was assisted by the West.

Western "democracy" is NOT exportable.....our participation should be against all terrorism and not as political expediency.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

"Western "democracy" is NOT exportable"

There is no western democracy to export. What governments like the US and UK are doing is attempting to open new markets and secure new resources; political ideology fails to even consider addressing the long-term, big questions we face as a species and instead continues to involve itself in the petty squabbles of countries we've continually interfered with over the centuries.

There is a massive misunderstanding about the importance of Al-Sham and the wider Levant outside the middle east to it's people. This isn't some recent agitation that a few westerners can clear up by bombing the shit out of innocent people with planes and cruise missiles; this is an area with a complex history that goes back millennia. Modern civilisation was born here.

Memories are long here, and it's entirely possible here in the west we've become so short-termist we can't even comprehend how ancient history can still influence modern political and national disputes.

To paint this as simply one terrorist group charging into an area and imposing a brutal form of Sharia law simply shows how far people are from having the slightest clue what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM

That is an example of the ideological idiocy which I mentioned previously.

When are you going to learn "dear old Ian", that "personal abuse does not an argument make."   (OLD ED's book of proverbs and quotations"
(153rd edition)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM

Oh come on, you guys. I started the thread because the CALIPHATE was claiming jurisdiction over all moslems, not because anybody here thinks anything at all about "all" anybody. Y'all are getting sidelined into pettiness about how people are phrasing things. Not that I blame Eliza for getting upset at the casual suggestion that they be treated as they would like to treat others, which is a bad idea whether your spouse is moslem, atheist, or a moon-howling heathen. Or you are. The upset should be civilized versus barbarian, not Don't say that about me and mine. Sorry, Eliza.
But that has nothing to do with the question, which still is, can they, the Caliphate, just *do* that? Apparently the answer is Yes, if they are allowed to?   Kind of like all Jews can consider themselves Israeli if they want to, which I believe they can?
Note that I personally do not consider that Israel or any nation on the planet has a right to exist because some ancient myth says they should... however I do accept the reality that Israel DOES exist. Am I going to have to so the same for the Caliphate?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 06:33 PM

""Western "liberal" idiocy""

An odd (and, IMO skewed ) assessment. The western conservatives pushed as much, or, even morde than the liberals to change and maintain sympathetic governments, where interests warrant.

It seems merely a red herring anyway. The main interest is power and economics, not installing any type of legitimate government, democracy or not While the excuse of establishing some type of democracy is often used, the actual goal is to install and keep a regime in power that sympathic to economic andipower nterest in control.

The Russians have been as guilty as anyone for doing the same in the past, but have had less resources in recent years, focusing more on resolving their own affairs. Maybe they are now on the way to be back on track.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:31 PM

"...it will hopefully finally be understood that reconciliation, dialogue and negotiation are the 'weapons'...." Alas, Eliza, not the kind of language an armchair squaddie like Teribus is likely to understand. I assume he fires his peashooter here because he's not allowed to play with guns any more. I suppose it gives him a buzz.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM

Peter please tell me, a simple "armchair squaddie", what are any of the fundamentalist, radical, Islamic terrorist groups prepared to reconcile?

Tell me, given their track record so far, what form of dialogue you are likely to have with them.

Tell me what are they prepared to negotiate.

Musket came out with this - 01 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

"There's a disused camp in Poland and blueprints for hermetically sealed sheds if you'd rather gather "them" all there instead Teribus."

Musket, as Keith points out, loves to just make things up, then attribute those things to whoever he is arguing with (He does just argue, I have never known him to actually discuss anything or debate any point) then take them to task over something that they have never stated - It must make him feel very "good" - He also loves to compare apples to oranges.

Now then Musket, who was it that arrested, rounded up and herded all those heavily armed foreign Jihadi fighters together and "transported" them to that tiny strip of land that stretches from Aleppo in Syria to Baqubah and Diyala Province in Iraq? Or did they go there of their own free will intent on taking land by force and killing all who stood in their way? Crucifying, beheading and executing unarmed civilians who were not of their brand of their faith and those fighting alongside them deemed by them not to be devout enough.

Tell me Musket what threats have been made by this group? Or have they made none? What threats were made by those on their way to that disused camp you drew our attention to? How heavily were they armed? I most certainly know the threats made, long in advance, long before the event by the man who directed that that camp be constructed. He wanted to establish his own sort of "Caliphate" too didn't he? And you and your like were the ones who ignored the warnings issued by that man and the warnings of the "armchair squaddies" of the day and as a result over 72 million people died.

ISIS/ISIL put quite simply are dangerous, deal with them now, and deal with them harshly, while that is easy to do so - it may save millions of lives further down the road. Going back to your disused camp Musket remind us again how it came to become "disused"? What price was paid, what price had to be paid once you and your like discovered that the "armchair squaddies" had been right all along?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:03 AM

So, can they just DO that? (trying to get back to the thread...)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:37 AM

Jim, do you still say this is not about religion?

ISIS leader quoted by BBC yesterday.

"Rush O Muslims to your state. Yes, it is your state. Rush, because Syria is not for the Syrians, and Iraq is not for the Iraqis," al-Baghdadi said in a new audio message on Tuesday.

"O Muslims everywhere, whoever is capable of performing hijrah (emigration) to the Islamic State, then let him do so, because hijrah to the land of Islam is obligatory," he added.

He also called on jihadist fighters to escalate fighting during the holy month of Ramadan, which began on Sunday.

"There is no deed in this virtuous month or in any other month better than jihad in the path of Allah, so take advantage of this opportunity and walk the path of you righteous predecessors," he said in the 19-minute audio message.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:02 AM

It is not about importing religion - it never has been importing religion and it never will be about importing religion - as you and your have claimed.
It is no more a religious war any more than The British Empire was a crusade to import Christianity, or the setting up of Northern Ireland was about setting up a religious state - it is about using religion as an excuse for warfare - as old as history.
Yu bloody born-again Christians really get up my nose - you are as bad as the worst fanatics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM

Yes, we know that that idiot is saying that sort of thing. That he does so does not justify genocide nor does it justify a generalisation implying that all Muslims are fundamentalist idealogues one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:22 AM

But if you look at everything Keith, Bobad, Teribus and a few others write, Islamaphobia is the driving force behind their comments.

Has to be. Reason isn't getting a look in, so all you are left with is awful bigotry. Why do you think Akenaton has weighed in? He is comfortable and amongst friends for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:45 AM

"An odd (and, IMO skewed ) assessment."

Ake constantly misuses the word 'liberals' for some reason known only to him. In fact, no-one is sure exactly who he means in his definition of 'liberals', although I suspect it's meant as a pejorative term to describe people on the left of politics, whatever that actually means these days.

The neocons have played a part in this fuckup, as the weapons they supplied to whatever side they support these days are now in the hands of the most extreme bunch. It's worth remembering they are only interested in protecting or promoting their vested interests so they can continue to make money.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:06 AM

Two options on what is meant: from the Urban Dictionary, (may be better than some folks sketchy definition of a liberal).

:))

""Liberal -
Somehow, it has turned into an insult, like the word conservative. Usually used as such by people who have never taken a political science class and don't know what the word means.

If used in a non-political sense, "liberal" simply means "a lot."I'd like a large popcorn with a liberal amount of butter, please.""

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

He means people who fought for equal rights for women, gays and ethnic minorities. He calls equality a liberal plot.

Simple, clear and creepy.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

""Liberal: a power worshipper without power.""
― George Orwell

Sound likd anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM

I like the facebook meme suggesting that Tony B Liar thinks he should be the Caliph...

Oh, I also like the last couple or so of Musket's posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

"Yeah Teribus. I make things up and give money to ISIS." - Musket

Well I knew you made things up, as you've been caught out doing that time and time again, but I didn't realise that you gave money to ISIS - Which one?

Islamic State of Iraq and Syria? (Very foolish of you if you do)
Institute for Science and International Security?
Integrated Student Information System?
Innovative Solutions In Space?
Institute for Software Integrated Systems?
ISIS The Bob Dylon Magazine?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM

nor does it justify a generalisation implying that all Muslims are fundamentalist idealogues one way or another.

Where do you see such shit Richard?
No-one on here implies anything like that!

But if you look at everything Keith, Bobad, Teribus and a few others write, Islamaphobia is the driving force behind their comments.
Has to be. Reason isn't getting a look in, so all you are left with is awful bigotry

More completely made up bollocks.
There has been none of either.
You can not challenge anything we say, say you make up bollocks and challenge that!
Hopeless.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM

Yes, we know that that idiot is saying that sort of thing.

So, he says such things because he is an idiot!
By your understanding of the issue, only an idiot would say such things in his position.
Also the leader of Boko Haram.

Perhaps they are idiots, but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything.

Their followers, in their tens of thousands, all think they are sane, rational and right.
Perhaps they are all idiots.
Or perhaps, you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

This from Keith over the last couple of posts;

"You cannot challenge anything we say"

Followed by

"but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything"

Oh, I don't know Keith. I understand alright...

I especially love the bit about not being able to challenge anything "we" say. There's no need to. There's nothing of value to get excited over. If you said anything on an intellectual level, I might consider it but your right wing ranting, raving and foaming at the mouth drivel invites nothing other than ridicule.

I don't make up bollocks. I read yours and have a good chuckle.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:33 AM

"ISIS The Bob Dylon Magazine?"
Dylan surely - or has Mr Z changed his relgion - or maybe become a colourist?
"You cannot challenge anything we say"
'Course we can't - you've already declared your infallibility on this matter, and who are we mere mortals....?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM

Musket, you accused us of bigotry and Islamophobia when we have never expressed either.
Will you produce an example?
Of course not, because you can't!

What we actually say goes unchallenged, because you can't do that either.

You are hopeless.
You are incapable of debating because you know so little about anything except, possibly, NHS administration.
All you can do is make up shit.

(Like those EU restrictions against Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

". . . but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything."

It is hard to live up to the grasp of nuance and detail you neocons have. For instance:

"All you can do is make up shit."

Ah right.