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BS: Caliphate

Mrrzy 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM
Joe Offer 01 Jul 14 - 02:02 AM
Teribus 01 Jul 14 - 02:29 AM
Musket 01 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM
Teribus 01 Jul 14 - 04:10 AM
Musket 01 Jul 14 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM
Teribus 01 Jul 14 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,# 01 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,# 01 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM
Musket 01 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM
Stu 01 Jul 14 - 07:34 AM
Ed T 01 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM
Teribus 01 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM
Teribus 01 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,# 01 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,# 01 Jul 14 - 10:14 AM
Greg F. 01 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM
akenaton 01 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM
Stu 01 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM
akenaton 01 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM
Mrrzy 01 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM
Ed T 01 Jul 14 - 06:33 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Jul 14 - 07:31 PM
Teribus 02 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM
Mrrzy 02 Jul 14 - 02:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 14 - 02:37 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 14 - 05:02 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM
Musket 02 Jul 14 - 05:22 AM
Stu 02 Jul 14 - 06:45 AM
Ed T 02 Jul 14 - 07:06 AM
Musket 02 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM
Ed T 02 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM
Teribus 02 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM
Musket 02 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 14 - 10:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM
Stu 02 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM
Musket 02 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM
Stu 02 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM
Greg F. 02 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM
akenaton 02 Jul 14 - 02:17 PM
Ed T 02 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM
Ed T 02 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,# 02 Jul 14 - 04:22 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Jul 14 - 05:01 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM
bobad 02 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 02:45 AM
akenaton 03 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM
Teribus 03 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 09:39 AM
Musket 03 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM
beardedbruce 03 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 14 - 11:17 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM
pdq 03 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 03:58 PM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 04:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 04:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 04:48 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM
GUEST 03 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 06:11 PM
bobad 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM
Ed T 03 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Mrr 03 Jul 14 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,# 04 Jul 14 - 12:16 AM
LadyJean 04 Jul 14 - 01:14 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 04:45 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM
akenaton 04 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM
Stu 04 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM
akenaton 04 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM
akenaton 04 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM
akenaton 04 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM
Teribus 04 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 09:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM
bobad 04 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM
bobad 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM
akenaton 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM
Ed T 04 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jul 14 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Bruce Murdoch 04 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Jul 14 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,Bruce Murdoch 05 Jul 14 - 12:33 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Jul 14 - 02:00 AM
akenaton 05 Jul 14 - 04:01 AM
akenaton 05 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,CJB 05 Jul 14 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM
MGM·Lion 05 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 14 - 07:32 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM
akenaton 05 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM
Musket 05 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Jul 14 - 12:29 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM
GUEST 06 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
akenaton 06 Jul 14 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM
akenaton 06 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM
bobad 06 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Jul 14 - 10:52 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM
akenaton 07 Jul 14 - 02:39 AM
Musket 07 Jul 14 - 03:38 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM
beardedbruce 07 Jul 14 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead 07 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM
Musket 07 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM
Mrrzy 07 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead 07 Jul 14 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM
Mrrzy 07 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 02:21 PM
Ed T 07 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM
bobad 07 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead 08 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Musket 08 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jul 14 - 06:17 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 06:20 AM
Musket 08 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 14 - 08:57 AM
Musket 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM
bobad 08 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM
Musket 08 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM
Mrrzy 08 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jul 14 - 02:26 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM
Mrrzy 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 PM
Ed T 08 Jul 14 - 09:42 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Jul 14 - 10:05 PM
Mrrzy 09 Jul 14 - 12:44 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jul 14 - 02:09 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 14 - 02:35 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 14 - 05:10 AM
Musket 09 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jul 14 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead 09 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 14 - 07:54 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 08:02 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM
bobad 09 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 14 - 09:30 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jul 14 - 09:54 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM
bobad 09 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 14 - 01:46 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM
bobad 09 Jul 14 - 02:23 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 02:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Jul 14 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Jul 14 - 03:13 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 09 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM
Lighter 09 Jul 14 - 08:45 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 09 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 14 - 02:10 AM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Jul 14 - 07:57 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jul 14 - 09:13 AM
pdq 10 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM
beardedbruce 10 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 10 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 10 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM
MGM·Lion 12 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 09:07 AM
Ed T 12 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 14 - 09:58 AM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM
pdq 12 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM
Greg F. 12 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 12 Jul 14 - 04:25 PM
bobad 12 Jul 14 - 05:06 PM
Don Firth 12 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 14 - 02:26 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM
Greg F. 13 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 13 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 02:20 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 13 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM
Mrrzy 13 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM
bobad 13 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM
Ed T 13 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM
Ed T 13 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM
Ed T 13 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM
akenaton 13 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM
Musket 14 Jul 14 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 09:40 AM
GUEST 14 Jul 14 - 09:57 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 14 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 10:41 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 11:01 AM
pdq 14 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM
Musket 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jul 14 - 02:07 PM
pdq 14 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Jul 14 - 05:29 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM
bobad 14 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 14 - 09:25 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Jul 14 - 11:29 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 01:41 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 14 - 02:40 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM
Musket 15 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM
Musket 15 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM
Musket 15 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 11:10 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM
Stilly River Sage 15 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 11:32 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jul 14 - 11:34 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM
Mrrzy 15 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 06:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 14 - 09:00 PM
bobad 15 Jul 14 - 09:37 PM
Teribus 16 Jul 14 - 01:39 AM
Musket 16 Jul 14 - 02:37 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM
Teribus 16 Jul 14 - 03:33 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 03:44 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM
Teribus 16 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 07:25 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jul 14 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM
pdq 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM
Musket 16 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 14 - 12:09 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Jul 14 - 12:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM
Mrrzy 16 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 14 - 04:48 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 09:21 AM
Ed T 17 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM
Ed T 17 Jul 14 - 09:53 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 17 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jul 14 - 11:22 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM
Musket 17 Jul 14 - 12:31 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 14 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jul 14 - 01:30 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 05:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 14 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Mrr 17 Jul 14 - 08:02 PM
Greg F. 17 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jul 14 - 12:52 AM
Teribus 18 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 14 - 02:40 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 03:19 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 14 - 03:48 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jul 14 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 14 - 06:52 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM
Ed T 18 Jul 14 - 06:59 AM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM
Musket 18 Jul 14 - 07:06 AM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 07:09 AM
bobad 18 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 14 - 07:36 AM
Ed T 18 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM
Ed T 18 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
Ed T 18 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM
pdq 18 Jul 14 - 09:43 AM
Greg F. 18 Jul 14 - 12:38 PM
Mrrzy 19 Jul 14 - 01:08 AM
Musket 19 Jul 14 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM
Musket 23 Jul 14 - 07:59 AM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 09:10 AM
Greg F. 23 Jul 14 - 09:15 AM
bobad 23 Jul 14 - 09:17 AM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM
Musket 23 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM
beardedbruce 23 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Jul 14 - 05:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Mrr 23 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 02:50 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 03:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 14 - 04:08 AM
Ed T 24 Jul 14 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 07:16 AM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 01:16 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM
Musket 24 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM
Greg F. 24 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM
beardedbruce 24 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 14 - 03:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM
Ed T 24 Jul 14 - 05:05 PM
robomatic 24 Jul 14 - 05:17 PM
Greg F. 24 Jul 14 - 05:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM
Greg F. 24 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM
Mrrzy 25 Jul 14 - 01:56 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 02:35 AM
Musket 25 Jul 14 - 03:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM
Musket 25 Jul 14 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 07:20 AM
Musket 25 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 07:30 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 08:14 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 08:17 AM
Greg F. 25 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 14 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 14 - 03:46 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jul 14 - 03:56 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 03:51 AM
Musket 26 Jul 14 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 06:28 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM
Musket 26 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM
bobad 26 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM
Musket 26 Jul 14 - 09:12 AM
bobad 26 Jul 14 - 10:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM
Mrrzy 26 Jul 14 - 02:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 14 - 02:08 PM
bobad 26 Jul 14 - 02:29 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Jul 14 - 02:38 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Jul 14 - 01:06 AM
Musket 27 Jul 14 - 02:23 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Jul 14 - 03:43 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Jul 14 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM
Musket 27 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 03:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 05:19 AM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 07:49 AM
Teribus 28 Jul 14 - 09:13 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM
beardedbruce 28 Jul 14 - 03:24 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 04:10 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jul 14 - 04:29 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Jul 14 - 04:31 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jul 14 - 04:47 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 05:11 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 05:15 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 05:28 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 05:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jul 14 - 07:13 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 07:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jul 14 - 07:24 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 07:53 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 08:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jul 14 - 08:06 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Jul 14 - 08:19 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Jul 14 - 08:21 PM
bobad 28 Jul 14 - 08:26 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 09:12 PM
Greg F. 28 Jul 14 - 09:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Jul 14 - 10:26 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Jul 14 - 01:34 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM
Musket 29 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Jul 14 - 05:19 AM
Musket 29 Jul 14 - 05:34 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 14 - 07:52 AM
Musket 29 Jul 14 - 08:23 AM
bobad 29 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM
Teribus 29 Jul 14 - 09:03 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 12:41 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 14 - 12:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 14 - 10:01 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 14 - 10:03 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 Jul 14 - 11:28 PM
Teribus 30 Jul 14 - 01:29 AM
Musket 30 Jul 14 - 03:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM
akenaton 30 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM
Musket 30 Jul 14 - 05:11 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 09:44 AM
akenaton 30 Jul 14 - 09:55 AM
beardedbruce 30 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM
Donuel 31 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 14 - 03:58 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM
Musket 31 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM
bobad 31 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM
beardedbruce 01 Aug 14 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 14 - 10:01 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 10:10 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 14 - 11:14 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 14 - 12:34 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 12:46 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 14 - 01:25 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 02:22 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 14 - 03:50 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Aug 14 - 04:22 PM
bobad 01 Aug 14 - 05:12 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 14 - 10:52 AM
bobad 02 Aug 14 - 05:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 07:21 AM
Musket 03 Aug 14 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 09:10 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM
bobad 03 Aug 14 - 09:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM
Musket 03 Aug 14 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 10:43 AM
bobad 03 Aug 14 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 10:52 AM
pdq 03 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM
Musket 03 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 03:11 PM
Musket 03 Aug 14 - 04:20 PM
bobad 03 Aug 14 - 04:44 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Aug 14 - 02:01 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 14 - 07:17 AM
bobad 04 Aug 14 - 08:02 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Aug 14 - 08:24 AM
Greg F. 04 Aug 14 - 10:06 AM
bobad 05 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM
bobad 05 Aug 14 - 09:33 AM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 14 - 11:13 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Aug 14 - 11:22 AM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 14 - 11:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 14 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 14 - 12:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 14 - 12:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 14 - 12:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Aug 14 - 01:31 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM
Greg F. 05 Aug 14 - 04:40 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 14 - 05:23 PM
Musket 06 Aug 14 - 03:09 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 14 - 03:36 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Aug 14 - 04:20 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Aug 14 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 05:13 AM
Musket 06 Aug 14 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 14 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 07:28 AM
Jeri 06 Aug 14 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Aug 14 - 09:00 AM
bobad 06 Aug 14 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 09:14 AM
Jeri 06 Aug 14 - 09:26 AM
Greg F. 06 Aug 14 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 14 - 10:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 12:13 PM
Musket 06 Aug 14 - 12:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 14 - 01:31 PM
bobad 06 Aug 14 - 04:43 PM
bobad 06 Aug 14 - 05:05 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Aug 14 - 06:01 PM
Teribus 07 Aug 14 - 02:37 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Aug 14 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 04:33 AM
Musket 07 Aug 14 - 04:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 14 - 06:01 AM
Teribus 07 Aug 14 - 06:11 AM
bobad 07 Aug 14 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 06:34 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Aug 14 - 06:52 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 14 - 06:56 AM
Teribus 07 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Aug 14 - 08:40 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 14 - 08:46 AM
beardedbruce 07 Aug 14 - 11:59 AM
beardedbruce 07 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM
beardedbruce 07 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 12:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM
beardedbruce 07 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM
beardedbruce 07 Aug 14 - 01:27 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 14 - 03:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 03:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 03:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 14 - 03:43 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Aug 14 - 06:06 PM
bobad 07 Aug 14 - 07:01 PM
bobad 07 Aug 14 - 07:35 PM
bobad 07 Aug 14 - 09:15 PM
bobad 07 Aug 14 - 09:53 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Aug 14 - 11:19 PM
Teribus 08 Aug 14 - 01:27 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 02:58 AM
Richard Bridge 08 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 03:19 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 14 - 04:05 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 05:04 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 14 - 05:17 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 05:44 AM
Musket 08 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 05:57 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 08:11 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM
Musket 08 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 10:11 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 10:15 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 10:21 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 10:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 10:54 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM
Donuel 08 Aug 14 - 01:49 PM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 01:53 PM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 14 - 02:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 03:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Aug 14 - 03:38 PM
Greg F. 08 Aug 14 - 04:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 14 - 05:18 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 05:27 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Aug 14 - 05:32 PM
Greg F. 08 Aug 14 - 06:21 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 14 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Aug 14 - 04:33 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Aug 14 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 14 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM
akenaton 09 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,# 09 Aug 14 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,William of Oakham 09 Aug 14 - 12:42 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 09 Aug 14 - 12:59 PM
Greg F. 09 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 14 - 04:00 AM
Musket 10 Aug 14 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 14 - 04:48 AM
bobad 10 Aug 14 - 07:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Aug 14 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 14 - 08:13 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM
akenaton 10 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM
Greg F. 10 Aug 14 - 12:15 PM
bobad 10 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM
bobad 10 Aug 14 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM
pdq 10 Aug 14 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 14 - 03:00 PM
Greg F. 10 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Aug 14 - 04:54 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 14 - 05:45 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Aug 14 - 01:43 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Aug 14 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 08:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 08:42 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 09:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 11:41 AM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 11:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM
bobad 11 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM
bobad 11 Aug 14 - 12:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 01:26 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 01:45 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 01:54 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 01:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 02:41 PM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 01:42 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 02:45 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 14 - 04:20 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Aug 14 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 06:16 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Aug 14 - 08:38 AM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 14 - 10:25 AM
Greg F. 12 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 14 - 11:05 AM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 14 - 01:02 PM
Greg F. 12 Aug 14 - 01:28 PM
Teribus 13 Aug 14 - 02:08 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 14 - 02:25 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Aug 14 - 03:06 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 14 - 03:09 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 14 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 14 - 05:26 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Aug 14 - 06:06 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 14 - 06:15 AM
Musket 13 Aug 14 - 06:21 AM
bobad 13 Aug 14 - 09:46 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Aug 14 - 10:17 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Aug 14 - 10:35 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 14 - 10:38 AM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 14 - 12:23 PM
bobad 13 Aug 14 - 01:03 PM
Greg F. 13 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM
bobad 13 Aug 14 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 14 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 14 - 02:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM
Greg F. 13 Aug 14 - 05:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Aug 14 - 05:24 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 14 - 06:12 PM
bobad 13 Aug 14 - 08:12 PM
bobad 13 Aug 14 - 09:25 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Aug 14 - 11:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 14 - 07:33 AM
Musket 14 Aug 14 - 09:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Aug 14 - 11:38 AM
bobad 14 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 14 - 02:49 PM
bobad 14 Aug 14 - 06:25 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 14 - 06:52 PM
bobad 14 Aug 14 - 07:00 PM
bobad 14 Aug 14 - 07:06 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 14 - 07:19 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 14 - 07:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Aug 14 - 04:52 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Aug 14 - 05:44 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Aug 14 - 06:27 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Aug 14 - 06:38 AM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 14 - 08:05 AM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 14 - 08:24 AM
Greg F. 15 Aug 14 - 09:03 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 14 - 09:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Aug 14 - 09:18 AM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 14 - 10:02 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Aug 14 - 10:22 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 14 - 12:19 PM
Greg F. 15 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 15 Aug 14 - 12:50 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 14 - 02:52 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Aug 14 - 03:02 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 14 - 04:15 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 14 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 15 Aug 14 - 04:31 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Aug 14 - 12:40 AM
Greg F. 16 Aug 14 - 10:32 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Aug 14 - 10:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 14 - 01:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 14 - 01:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 14 - 02:01 PM
Greg F. 16 Aug 14 - 02:32 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Aug 14 - 04:10 PM
pdq 16 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Aug 14 - 03:49 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Aug 14 - 03:57 AM
Greg F. 17 Aug 14 - 08:27 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 17 Aug 14 - 03:48 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Aug 14 - 07:43 PM
Greg F. 17 Aug 14 - 09:40 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Aug 14 - 12:26 AM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 14 - 09:49 AM
Mrrzy 18 Aug 14 - 10:45 AM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 14 - 10:47 AM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 14 - 10:55 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 14 - 12:28 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM
akenaton 18 Aug 14 - 01:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 14 - 07:39 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Aug 14 - 02:02 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 14 - 08:01 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 14 - 08:16 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 14 - 10:38 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 14 - 03:39 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 14 - 04:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 14 - 04:46 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 14 - 05:00 PM
Greg F. 19 Aug 14 - 08:08 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 14 - 08:29 PM
akenaton 20 Aug 14 - 03:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM
Greg F. 20 Aug 14 - 08:59 AM
bobad 20 Aug 14 - 09:12 AM
akenaton 20 Aug 14 - 09:51 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Aug 14 - 10:19 AM
Greg F. 20 Aug 14 - 11:02 AM
Musket 20 Aug 14 - 11:28 AM
Greg F. 20 Aug 14 - 11:54 AM
akenaton 20 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Aug 14 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 14 - 02:26 PM
akenaton 20 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 14 - 03:48 PM
bobad 20 Aug 14 - 07:30 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Aug 14 - 08:34 PM
akenaton 21 Aug 14 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Aug 14 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 14 - 07:19 AM
bobad 21 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 21 Aug 14 - 02:48 PM
robomatic 21 Aug 14 - 03:31 PM
beardedbruce 21 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM
bobad 21 Aug 14 - 04:43 PM
Greg F. 21 Aug 14 - 05:36 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Aug 14 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Jebidiah LaCount 21 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM
Stilly River Sage 21 Aug 14 - 10:30 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 14 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 05:18 AM
Musket 22 Aug 14 - 06:46 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 14 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 06:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM
bobad 22 Aug 14 - 09:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 14 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM
Musket 22 Aug 14 - 12:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 02:18 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 14 - 02:58 PM
Musket 22 Aug 14 - 03:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 05:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Aug 14 - 05:26 PM
Musket 23 Aug 14 - 02:34 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 03:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 14 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 14 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Teddyboy 23 Aug 14 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,Teddyboy 23 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,Teddyboy 23 Aug 14 - 07:21 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 14 - 03:16 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM
Musket 24 Aug 14 - 03:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 14 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 14 - 06:50 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Aug 14 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 14 - 08:29 AM
Musket 24 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 14 - 10:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Aug 14 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 14 - 11:27 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM
Mrrzy 24 Aug 14 - 05:39 PM
Lighter 24 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM
Greg F. 24 Aug 14 - 09:00 PM
Musket 25 Aug 14 - 03:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Aug 14 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 14 - 12:04 PM
Musket 25 Aug 14 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 14 - 03:35 PM
beardedbruce 25 Aug 14 - 04:46 PM
beardedbruce 25 Aug 14 - 04:48 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Aug 14 - 02:26 AM
Musket 26 Aug 14 - 02:42 AM
bobad 26 Aug 14 - 06:58 AM
Musket 26 Aug 14 - 07:44 AM
akenaton 26 Aug 14 - 10:48 AM
Musket 26 Aug 14 - 11:26 AM
Musket 28 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM
bobad 31 Aug 14 - 12:36 PM
bobad 02 Sep 14 - 06:27 AM
Greg F. 02 Sep 14 - 10:17 AM
bobad 02 Sep 14 - 10:27 AM
bobad 02 Sep 14 - 10:49 AM
Greg F. 02 Sep 14 - 10:59 AM
bobad 02 Sep 14 - 11:23 AM
Musket 02 Sep 14 - 12:51 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 14 - 02:13 PM
bobad 02 Sep 14 - 07:18 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 14 - 08:08 PM
bobad 02 Sep 14 - 08:18 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 14 - 09:53 PM
Teribus 03 Sep 14 - 03:01 AM
Musket 03 Sep 14 - 04:49 AM
Greg F. 03 Sep 14 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Sep 14 - 04:20 PM
Musket 04 Sep 14 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Sep 14 - 04:37 AM
Greg F. 05 Sep 14 - 05:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 14 - 05:50 AM
Greg F. 06 Sep 14 - 09:36 AM
bobad 06 Sep 14 - 10:34 AM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Sep 14 - 02:27 PM
Bill D 06 Sep 14 - 04:17 PM
Greg F. 06 Sep 14 - 05:24 PM
Greg F. 06 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM
Musket 06 Sep 14 - 05:32 PM
Greg F. 06 Sep 14 - 06:05 PM
bobad 06 Sep 14 - 08:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 14 - 04:41 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Sep 14 - 05:16 AM
akenaton 07 Sep 14 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Sep 14 - 09:51 AM
Musket 07 Sep 14 - 10:00 AM
akenaton 07 Sep 14 - 10:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 14 - 12:40 PM
Musket 07 Sep 14 - 01:07 PM
bobad 07 Sep 14 - 01:25 PM
Musket 07 Sep 14 - 04:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 14 - 04:09 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 14 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 14 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 14 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 14 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Sep 14 - 06:55 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 14 - 07:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 14 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 14 - 10:38 AM
Musket 08 Sep 14 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Sep 14 - 11:44 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Sep 14 - 12:06 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Sep 14 - 07:10 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Sep 14 - 07:13 PM
bobad 08 Sep 14 - 08:23 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 14 - 06:07 AM
Teribus 09 Sep 14 - 07:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 14 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Sep 14 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 14 - 11:47 AM
Musket 09 Sep 14 - 11:56 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 14 - 12:11 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Sep 14 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Sep 14 - 06:16 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Sep 14 - 10:20 PM
Teribus 10 Sep 14 - 02:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 14 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Sep 14 - 04:34 AM
Teribus 10 Sep 14 - 05:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 14 - 06:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 14 - 08:56 AM
bobad 10 Sep 14 - 09:06 AM
Teribus 11 Sep 14 - 01:53 AM
akenaton 11 Sep 14 - 01:45 PM
akenaton 11 Sep 14 - 01:49 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 14 - 03:04 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Sep 14 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM
Mrrzy 11 Sep 14 - 09:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 14 - 01:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 14 - 01:35 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Sep 14 - 03:39 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 14 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 14 - 05:02 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 14 - 05:29 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 14 - 05:56 AM
bobad 12 Sep 14 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 14 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 14 - 10:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 14 - 10:23 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 14 - 11:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 14 - 11:55 AM
Musket 12 Sep 14 - 12:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Iznogoud 12 Sep 14 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 14 - 06:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 14 - 05:14 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Sep 14 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 14 - 10:20 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Sep 14 - 12:13 PM
Musket 13 Sep 14 - 12:59 PM
Greg F. 13 Sep 14 - 04:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 14 - 05:17 PM
bobad 13 Sep 14 - 05:19 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Sep 14 - 05:39 PM
Greg F. 13 Sep 14 - 06:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 14 - 04:39 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Sep 14 - 05:18 AM
Greg F. 14 Sep 14 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 14 - 09:38 AM
Greg F. 14 Sep 14 - 09:45 AM
bobad 14 Sep 14 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 14 - 10:11 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Sep 14 - 10:48 AM
bobad 14 Sep 14 - 12:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 14 - 01:04 PM
Greg F. 14 Sep 14 - 01:09 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Sep 14 - 01:45 PM
robomatic 14 Sep 14 - 07:05 PM
Greg F. 14 Sep 14 - 09:51 PM
Greg F. 14 Sep 14 - 09:54 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Sep 14 - 12:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM
Greg F. 15 Sep 14 - 09:52 AM
Greg F. 15 Sep 14 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 14 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 14 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM
robomatic 15 Sep 14 - 05:10 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Sep 14 - 05:37 PM
Teribus 16 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM
Greg F. 16 Sep 14 - 09:15 AM
Greg F. 16 Sep 14 - 09:19 AM
bobad 16 Sep 14 - 09:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 14 - 10:10 AM
Greg F. 16 Sep 14 - 11:13 AM
bobad 16 Sep 14 - 11:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 14 - 11:38 AM
Mrrzy 16 Sep 14 - 01:20 PM
Greg F. 16 Sep 14 - 02:09 PM
bobad 16 Sep 14 - 04:22 PM
Greg F. 16 Sep 14 - 05:21 PM
bobad 16 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM
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bobad 16 Sep 14 - 06:26 PM
Greg F. 16 Sep 14 - 07:51 PM
bobad 16 Sep 14 - 07:57 PM
robomatic 16 Sep 14 - 09:51 PM
Teribus 17 Sep 14 - 02:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Sep 14 - 05:03 AM
Greg F. 17 Sep 14 - 09:23 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM
Greg F. 17 Sep 14 - 09:41 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Sep 14 - 09:50 AM
Greg F. 17 Sep 14 - 10:19 AM
bobad 17 Sep 14 - 10:32 AM
Greg F. 17 Sep 14 - 10:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Sep 14 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Sep 14 - 05:21 AM
bobad 18 Sep 14 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM
Greg F. 18 Sep 14 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Sep 14 - 10:05 AM
Greg F. 18 Sep 14 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Sep 14 - 02:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Sep 14 - 02:18 PM
Mrrzy 19 Sep 14 - 02:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Sep 14 - 04:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Sep 14 - 02:39 AM
Thompson 20 Sep 14 - 06:08 AM
Musket 20 Sep 14 - 07:59 AM
bobad 20 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Sep 14 - 12:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 14 - 07:15 AM
Teribus 22 Sep 14 - 02:50 AM
Musket 22 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 14 - 04:23 AM
Musket 22 Sep 14 - 07:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 14 - 08:17 AM
Greg F. 22 Sep 14 - 09:39 AM
Teribus 23 Sep 14 - 04:00 AM
Greg F. 23 Sep 14 - 09:45 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Sep 14 - 03:53 PM
Teribus 24 Sep 14 - 02:07 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Sep 14 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Sep 14 - 04:35 AM
Teribus 24 Sep 14 - 04:43 AM
Greg F. 24 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM
Teribus 24 Sep 14 - 09:49 AM
robomatic 24 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Sep 14 - 05:28 PM
Greg F. 24 Sep 14 - 07:31 PM
Mrrzy 25 Sep 14 - 06:54 PM
Lighter 25 Sep 14 - 09:10 PM
Musket 26 Sep 14 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 14 - 05:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 14 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 14 - 06:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 14 - 06:24 AM
Musket 26 Sep 14 - 09:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 14 - 09:10 AM
Musket 26 Sep 14 - 11:54 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 14 - 05:00 PM
Lighter 26 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 14 - 06:00 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 14 - 06:35 PM
bobad 26 Sep 14 - 06:58 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 14 - 08:03 PM
bobad 26 Sep 14 - 08:45 PM
Mrrzy 26 Sep 14 - 11:36 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Sep 14 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Sep 14 - 03:53 AM
Musket 27 Sep 14 - 12:50 PM
Greg F. 27 Sep 14 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 14 - 02:57 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 14 - 02:06 AM
Greg F. 28 Sep 14 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 28 Sep 14 - 07:25 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 14 - 08:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 14 - 04:10 AM
akenaton 29 Sep 14 - 06:09 AM
Teribus 30 Sep 14 - 01:41 AM
Musket 30 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM
akenaton 30 Sep 14 - 04:01 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 14 - 04:35 AM
Teribus 30 Sep 14 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 14 - 05:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 14 - 06:33 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 14 - 08:43 AM
Greg F. 30 Sep 14 - 08:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 14 - 08:54 AM
Musket 30 Sep 14 - 09:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 14 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 14 - 09:56 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 14 - 07:26 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Sep 14 - 07:33 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 14 - 07:46 PM
Teribus 01 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM
Musket 01 Oct 14 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 14 - 05:00 AM
bobad 01 Oct 14 - 07:54 AM
Teribus 01 Oct 14 - 08:16 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Oct 14 - 06:30 PM
Teribus 02 Oct 14 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 14 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 14 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM
bobad 02 Oct 14 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 14 - 08:11 PM
Mrrzy 02 Oct 14 - 11:43 PM
Teribus 03 Oct 14 - 02:50 AM
Musket 03 Oct 14 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Oct 14 - 04:41 AM
Lighter 03 Oct 14 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Oct 14 - 12:58 PM
Musket 03 Oct 14 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Oct 14 - 02:13 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 14 - 03:44 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 14 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 14 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Oct 14 - 10:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 14 - 01:40 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Oct 14 - 02:05 AM
Musket 04 Oct 14 - 02:52 AM
bobad 04 Oct 14 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 14 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Oct 14 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Rahere 04 Oct 14 - 06:28 PM
Mrrzy 04 Oct 14 - 08:37 PM
Musket 05 Oct 14 - 02:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Oct 14 - 04:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Oct 14 - 08:59 AM
robomatic 07 Oct 14 - 04:25 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Oct 14 - 06:50 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 14 - 06:54 PM
robomatic 07 Oct 14 - 07:19 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 14 - 07:56 PM
GUEST 07 Oct 14 - 08:23 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Oct 14 - 08:39 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Oct 14 - 01:38 AM
Teribus 08 Oct 14 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Rahere 08 Oct 14 - 08:32 AM
Musket 08 Oct 14 - 08:40 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Oct 14 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,Rahere 09 Oct 14 - 03:59 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 04:51 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 04:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 14 - 11:37 AM
Teribus 20 Oct 14 - 03:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 14 - 05:18 AM
bobad 20 Oct 14 - 08:00 AM

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Subject: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Can they really just assert dominance over all moslems, and does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:02 AM

It sounds like it might be very similar to the Ottoman Empire....only not as benign.

Nobody can "just assert dominance over all Muslims," since there is no structure, no heirarchy, no pecking order in Islam.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:29 AM

"Nobody can "just assert dominance over all Muslims," since there is no structure, no heirarchy, no pecking order in Islam."

Is that "in theory"? Certainly not in practice (I mean the bit about a "pecking order")

The self-styled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who set the Arabs against the Jews and worked damned hard at keeping that pot boiling for his entire life.

The 12 Old Gits and the Ayatollah in Iran certainly make strides in their assertion of their dominance over their Muslims

Al-Sistani in Iraq and the Shia of Iraq.

And now al-Baghdadi of ISIS or ISIL or whatever you want to call it.

It should be handy having them all gather inside their Caliphate - any trouble - declare it the largest live firing range in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

I doubt my newsagent recognises it.

He'd possibly recognise Teribus's final comment as demonstrating that shocking inflammatory comments aren't confined to wannabe Caliphs though.

There's a disused camp in Poland and blueprints for hermetically sealed sheds if you'd rather gather "them" all there instead Teribus. Get them to form two queues, women and children on one side...

Or maybe your first idea of murdering them in situ might be more fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM

Teribus, that's a shocking and disgraceful remark, even if made only in fun. I agree with Musket, it's no different to the death camp mentality of the thirties. My husband is a Muslim, and inflammatory comments such as yours hurt me deeply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:10 AM

My sincere apologies Eliza but I somehow doubt that your husband is at this moment in time running about in a "technical" crucifying, beheading and murdering people purely because they are not Sunni Muslims, or even if they are, are not considered "devout" enough.

The Iraqi native Sunni population and tribes of Anbar Province have seized on the coat-tails of this ISIS "invasion" in an opportunist attempt to regain power by destabilising the entire country and threatening all minority groups therein. The publicly declared and clearly stated governance of this Caliphate extends to all Muslims whether those Muslims wish it, or desire it, irrespective of the country where that Muslim community lives.

My remark was not made in fun and would apply to any other region whose inhabitants think that they can host terrorists with an international agenda and spread terror throughout the world by attacking indiscriminately civilian populations - No "Boots on the Ground" merely retribution - it seems to be the only language they understand.

Air power IS the key that will recover the situation for the Iraqi Government, God knows what MANPADS ISIS have acquired from looted Syrian and Iraqi armouries. Don't know about you Eliza I'd rather have those surface to air missiles used up by those terrorists attempting to defend their leadership rather than watch pictures of civilian airliners fall out of the sky on approach to airports close to heavily built up areas, because if that happened - that would hurt me deeply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:24 AM

And i suppose you will feel obliged to heed the sabre rattling cry of Christian pastors calling on all Christians to hate Muslims.

After all, it applies to ALL Christians, not just the ones who use snakes in their weekly rituals.

Disgusting


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

My husband is in fact Sunni. But, as you say, not a subscriber to the fundamentalist, terrorist brigade. I agree that these war-mongering extremists present a serious threat to world peace. But I don't see that herding them up and killing them is defensible. As with the 'Troubles' all those years ago in Belfast, it will hopefully finally be understood that reconciliation, dialogue and negotiation are the 'weapons' for defusing the situation and removing the Threat. This sadly takes time and forbearance, both in short supply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

It has been going on for well over a thousand years, and reconciliation seems further away than ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Well, that's flushed out the truth about KtheA and JerryTerry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:54 AM

Musket I have never felt obliged to heed the sabre rattling of anyone of any persuasion and I most certainly have not heard any cry of any Christian pastor calling on anybody to hate anybody else - If I were to, I think that I would have the commonsense to ignore it.


Eliza - Who said anything about herding anyone anywhere?

As for the "Troubles" - The PIRA and the INLA had to be fought to a standstill (1985 according to Martin McGuinness) before their "leadership" admitted that their "armed struggle" was getting them nowhere and even then there are still "Republicans/Nationalists" who support the men of violence and are all for continuing indiscriminate bombing campaigns (325 incidents since 1998). Besides unlike ISIS/ISIL clear points of negotiation were evident for all parties/sides associated with the situation in Northern Ireland.

Here by the way is the ISIS/ISIL "roadmap" as seen 5 years from now - and that by no means marks the limit of their plans:

The Caliphate 5 years from now according to ISIS

Now putting that together might step on the toes of a few "Big Boys" in the regions shown:
China
India
Russia
NATO
USA by nature of Articles 5 & 6 of the NATO Alliance.

Generally speaking if someone says they are going to attack you, take it as read that they will, in which case it is usually best practice to prepare for it and forestall the attack by all means at your disposal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

Richard, what "truth" about me is "flushed out" because I referred to the Sunni/Shia split?
What in my post do you challenge Richard?
What would you have expressed differently?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is rabid. Why so little condemnation of his actions? Neville Chamberlain become part of the national psyche?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM

Indeed he is, guest. But that is not a good excuse to condemn all Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM

I agree with you, Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

Teribus feels he would have the common sense to ignore calls from a Christian pastor to hate all Muslims, (unlike Robinson, first minister of Northern Ireland for example.)

Yet in the post above it, he asserts that the call for a Caliphate extends to ALL Muslims.

Presumably, Muslims don't have your intelligence or judgement then? Not even my newsagent it seems. Or many of my friends for that matter.

Bugger. I was getting on with them just fine too.

zzzzzz

Bridge is, and it pains me to say this, right. Flushing now and then stops the turds from floating and causing an unpleasant odour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:34 AM

"It should be handy having them all gather inside their Caliphate - any trouble - declare it the largest live firing range in the world."

Blimey. Did you actually think about this shit before you typed it, or did you just crap it directly into your computer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM

what is a celiphate 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

From Ed's link.

"Is the idea of a caliphate unique to ISIS?

No.

Nearly all Sunni political Islamist movements dream of the eventual resurrection of the caliphate, most by political means, though jihadi groups call for establishing it by violence.

It has been the ultimate ambition of al-Qaeda, but while its late leader Osama bin Laden could once claim leadership of the international jihadi movement, he never went so far as to declare himself caliph."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

By the way Richard who is condemning all Muslims?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM

"Yet in the post above it, he asserts that the call for a Caliphate extends to ALL Muslims.

Presumably, Muslims don't have your intelligence or judgement then? Not even my newsagent it seems. Or many of my friends for that matter."


Ehmmmm NO Musket the chap asserting that his rule and that of his self declared Caliphate extends to all Muslims is one Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

Dear old Musket.
He knows he disagrees but can not actually challenge anything we say, so he makes up things we have not said and attacks that instead.

You too Richard.
Can you challenge anything actually said?
Why did you decline to answer what "truth" had been "flushed out" about us from what we had posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM

All anyone has to do is look at the proposed map of the so-called 'caliphate' to see that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is just a bit unhinged. He needs to be taken out of the picture asap. ISIS has murdered thousands of Muslims. They propose to murder millions eventually . . . hell, look at the damned map, because millions who live in the countries he proposes to have join his 'caliphate' will die as a result of ISIS imperialism. The sooner he's out of the picture--by whatever means necessary--the better. It is at present a Muslim problem. If he is not stopped it will not remain a Muslim problem, and there there be dragons.

Good to see you once again, Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:14 AM

Keith, you should know better by now. Stop trying to provoke a fight. Richard is equally entitled to his opinion/POV. You may or may not like it, but he's a reasonable and often outspoken man. That may grind a few nuts, but so what? Your running fight with Musket carries over to any thread you both post on and it's always one or other of you saying "But he hit me back first." Give it a fuckin' rest, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Keith, you should know better by now.

Now, THAT'S funny!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM

Everyone is entitled to a POV and I enjoy discussing and debating them.

Richard made a statement about me personally but refused to explain what he meant or why he said it.
"Well, that's flushed out the truth about KtheA and JerryTerry"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

Time I think to repeat my post/prophesy of 28/7 which was written before the Caliphate was announced.
Teribus is quite correct, these people(Islamist radicals0, are a grave danger to human life everywhere and should be removed from the equation....First things first, this situation has been brought about by Western "liberal" idiocy and a mistaken belief that "democracy" can be instigated in our interests in Muslim countries.
akenaton......28/7/14.


Although we are at separate ends of the UK political spectrum, I agree 100% with Keith's no nonsense evaluation of the situation in Syria.
The Islamists hate "liberal" western values, even more than they hate other branches of their religion and before long all will be absorbed into an Islamic Caliphate and moderate voices will be silenced.

This is a grave danger and only ideological fools like a few on these pages would consider support of such action.
These people believe all who do not support Islam should be exterminated.
All the Eastern dictators, from Saddam through Gaddafi to Assad, warned us of the danger from Islamist terror, but we preferred to believe that we could set up exploitable Western style democracies in these countries......The result has been chaos and terror.
Our politicians made serious errors in Middle Eastern policy and people like Blair, Hague and Cameron should be called to account.

In Russia, Putin realised the danger of Islamic terrorism having experience of fighting jihadists in Chechnya and Afghanistan, where Russia's defeat was assisted by the West.

Western "democracy" is NOT exportable.....our participation should be against all terrorism and not as political expediency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

"Western "democracy" is NOT exportable"

There is no western democracy to export. What governments like the US and UK are doing is attempting to open new markets and secure new resources; political ideology fails to even consider addressing the long-term, big questions we face as a species and instead continues to involve itself in the petty squabbles of countries we've continually interfered with over the centuries.

There is a massive misunderstanding about the importance of Al-Sham and the wider Levant outside the middle east to it's people. This isn't some recent agitation that a few westerners can clear up by bombing the shit out of innocent people with planes and cruise missiles; this is an area with a complex history that goes back millennia. Modern civilisation was born here.

Memories are long here, and it's entirely possible here in the west we've become so short-termist we can't even comprehend how ancient history can still influence modern political and national disputes.

To paint this as simply one terrorist group charging into an area and imposing a brutal form of Sharia law simply shows how far people are from having the slightest clue what is going on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM

That is an example of the ideological idiocy which I mentioned previously.

When are you going to learn "dear old Ian", that "personal abuse does not an argument make."   (OLD ED's book of proverbs and quotations"
(153rd edition)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM

Oh come on, you guys. I started the thread because the CALIPHATE was claiming jurisdiction over all moslems, not because anybody here thinks anything at all about "all" anybody. Y'all are getting sidelined into pettiness about how people are phrasing things. Not that I blame Eliza for getting upset at the casual suggestion that they be treated as they would like to treat others, which is a bad idea whether your spouse is moslem, atheist, or a moon-howling heathen. Or you are. The upset should be civilized versus barbarian, not Don't say that about me and mine. Sorry, Eliza.
But that has nothing to do with the question, which still is, can they, the Caliphate, just *do* that? Apparently the answer is Yes, if they are allowed to?   Kind of like all Jews can consider themselves Israeli if they want to, which I believe they can?
Note that I personally do not consider that Israel or any nation on the planet has a right to exist because some ancient myth says they should... however I do accept the reality that Israel DOES exist. Am I going to have to so the same for the Caliphate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 06:33 PM

""Western "liberal" idiocy""

An odd (and, IMO skewed ) assessment. The western conservatives pushed as much, or, even morde than the liberals to change and maintain sympathetic governments, where interests warrant.

It seems merely a red herring anyway. The main interest is power and economics, not installing any type of legitimate government, democracy or not While the excuse of establishing some type of democracy is often used, the actual goal is to install and keep a regime in power that sympathic to economic andipower nterest in control.

The Russians have been as guilty as anyone for doing the same in the past, but have had less resources in recent years, focusing more on resolving their own affairs. Maybe they are now on the way to be back on track.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:31 PM

"...it will hopefully finally be understood that reconciliation, dialogue and negotiation are the 'weapons'...." Alas, Eliza, not the kind of language an armchair squaddie like Teribus is likely to understand. I assume he fires his peashooter here because he's not allowed to play with guns any more. I suppose it gives him a buzz.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM

Peter please tell me, a simple "armchair squaddie", what are any of the fundamentalist, radical, Islamic terrorist groups prepared to reconcile?

Tell me, given their track record so far, what form of dialogue you are likely to have with them.

Tell me what are they prepared to negotiate.

Musket came out with this - 01 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

"There's a disused camp in Poland and blueprints for hermetically sealed sheds if you'd rather gather "them" all there instead Teribus."

Musket, as Keith points out, loves to just make things up, then attribute those things to whoever he is arguing with (He does just argue, I have never known him to actually discuss anything or debate any point) then take them to task over something that they have never stated - It must make him feel very "good" - He also loves to compare apples to oranges.

Now then Musket, who was it that arrested, rounded up and herded all those heavily armed foreign Jihadi fighters together and "transported" them to that tiny strip of land that stretches from Aleppo in Syria to Baqubah and Diyala Province in Iraq? Or did they go there of their own free will intent on taking land by force and killing all who stood in their way? Crucifying, beheading and executing unarmed civilians who were not of their brand of their faith and those fighting alongside them deemed by them not to be devout enough.

Tell me Musket what threats have been made by this group? Or have they made none? What threats were made by those on their way to that disused camp you drew our attention to? How heavily were they armed? I most certainly know the threats made, long in advance, long before the event by the man who directed that that camp be constructed. He wanted to establish his own sort of "Caliphate" too didn't he? And you and your like were the ones who ignored the warnings issued by that man and the warnings of the "armchair squaddies" of the day and as a result over 72 million people died.

ISIS/ISIL put quite simply are dangerous, deal with them now, and deal with them harshly, while that is easy to do so - it may save millions of lives further down the road. Going back to your disused camp Musket remind us again how it came to become "disused"? What price was paid, what price had to be paid once you and your like discovered that the "armchair squaddies" had been right all along?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:03 AM

So, can they just DO that? (trying to get back to the thread...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:37 AM

Jim, do you still say this is not about religion?

ISIS leader quoted by BBC yesterday.

"Rush O Muslims to your state. Yes, it is your state. Rush, because Syria is not for the Syrians, and Iraq is not for the Iraqis," al-Baghdadi said in a new audio message on Tuesday.

"O Muslims everywhere, whoever is capable of performing hijrah (emigration) to the Islamic State, then let him do so, because hijrah to the land of Islam is obligatory," he added.

He also called on jihadist fighters to escalate fighting during the holy month of Ramadan, which began on Sunday.

"There is no deed in this virtuous month or in any other month better than jihad in the path of Allah, so take advantage of this opportunity and walk the path of you righteous predecessors," he said in the 19-minute audio message.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:02 AM

It is not about importing religion - it never has been importing religion and it never will be about importing religion - as you and your have claimed.
It is no more a religious war any more than The British Empire was a crusade to import Christianity, or the setting up of Northern Ireland was about setting up a religious state - it is about using religion as an excuse for warfare - as old as history.
Yu bloody born-again Christians really get up my nose - you are as bad as the worst fanatics
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM

Yes, we know that that idiot is saying that sort of thing. That he does so does not justify genocide nor does it justify a generalisation implying that all Muslims are fundamentalist idealogues one way or another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:22 AM

But if you look at everything Keith, Bobad, Teribus and a few others write, Islamaphobia is the driving force behind their comments.

Has to be. Reason isn't getting a look in, so all you are left with is awful bigotry. Why do you think Akenaton has weighed in? He is comfortable and amongst friends for once.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:45 AM

"An odd (and, IMO skewed ) assessment."

Ake constantly misuses the word 'liberals' for some reason known only to him. In fact, no-one is sure exactly who he means in his definition of 'liberals', although I suspect it's meant as a pejorative term to describe people on the left of politics, whatever that actually means these days.

The neocons have played a part in this fuckup, as the weapons they supplied to whatever side they support these days are now in the hands of the most extreme bunch. It's worth remembering they are only interested in protecting or promoting their vested interests so they can continue to make money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:06 AM

Two options on what is meant: from the Urban Dictionary, (may be better than some folks sketchy definition of a liberal).

:))

""Liberal -
Somehow, it has turned into an insult, like the word conservative. Usually used as such by people who have never taken a political science class and don't know what the word means.

If used in a non-political sense, "liberal" simply means "a lot."I'd like a large popcorn with a liberal amount of butter, please.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

He means people who fought for equal rights for women, gays and ethnic minorities. He calls equality a liberal plot.

Simple, clear and creepy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

""Liberal: a power worshipper without power.""
― George Orwell

Sound likd anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM

I like the facebook meme suggesting that Tony B Liar thinks he should be the Caliph...

Oh, I also like the last couple or so of Musket's posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

"Yeah Teribus. I make things up and give money to ISIS." - Musket

Well I knew you made things up, as you've been caught out doing that time and time again, but I didn't realise that you gave money to ISIS - Which one?

Islamic State of Iraq and Syria? (Very foolish of you if you do)
Institute for Science and International Security?
Integrated Student Information System?
Innovative Solutions In Space?
Institute for Software Integrated Systems?
ISIS The Bob Dylon Magazine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM

nor does it justify a generalisation implying that all Muslims are fundamentalist idealogues one way or another.

Where do you see such shit Richard?
No-one on here implies anything like that!

But if you look at everything Keith, Bobad, Teribus and a few others write, Islamaphobia is the driving force behind their comments.
Has to be. Reason isn't getting a look in, so all you are left with is awful bigotry

More completely made up bollocks.
There has been none of either.
You can not challenge anything we say, say you make up bollocks and challenge that!
Hopeless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM

Yes, we know that that idiot is saying that sort of thing.

So, he says such things because he is an idiot!
By your understanding of the issue, only an idiot would say such things in his position.
Also the leader of Boko Haram.

Perhaps they are idiots, but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything.

Their followers, in their tens of thousands, all think they are sane, rational and right.
Perhaps they are all idiots.
Or perhaps, you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

This from Keith over the last couple of posts;

"You cannot challenge anything we say"

Followed by

"but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything"

Oh, I don't know Keith. I understand alright...

I especially love the bit about not being able to challenge anything "we" say. There's no need to. There's nothing of value to get excited over. If you said anything on an intellectual level, I might consider it but your right wing ranting, raving and foaming at the mouth drivel invites nothing other than ridicule.

I don't make up bollocks. I read yours and have a good chuckle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:33 AM

"ISIS The Bob Dylon Magazine?"
Dylan surely - or has Mr Z changed his relgion - or maybe become a colourist?
"You cannot challenge anything we say"
'Course we can't - you've already declared your infallibility on this matter, and who are we mere mortals....?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM

Musket, you accused us of bigotry and Islamophobia when we have never expressed either.
Will you produce an example?
Of course not, because you can't!

What we actually say goes unchallenged, because you can't do that either.

You are hopeless.
You are incapable of debating because you know so little about anything except, possibly, NHS administration.
All you can do is make up shit.

(Like those EU restrictions against Israel)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

". . . but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything."

It is hard to live up to the grasp of nuance and detail you neocons have. For instance:

"All you can do is make up shit."

Ah right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

Maybe, oh right wing and militaristic idealogues, you should talk to some Yoruba people about Boko Haram and Islam. Do you not realise that IFA is one of the fastest growing belief systems?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

"Will you produce an example?"
Doesn't claiming all male Pakistani Muslims are implanted to make them want to shag underage girls count as Islamophobia then - just like it doesn't count as being racist?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

"We"

What is delicious is when you keep bringing up your confusion regarding restrictions in military hardware , comboned with confusing UN resolutions and sanctions. Each time you embarrass yourself, it just seems even funnier.

I take it the rest of "we" are happy to share your confusion and ridiculous notion?

I enjoy knowing nothing. My years of knowing nothing allows me to turn left when I get on a plane. Just think, if I knew anything, I'd have to turn right and sit with the proletariate.

(Sorry. Bridge has agreed with two of my posts. I have to make amends.).


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

"I'd have to turn right and sit with the proletariate."

Which is fine by us. You bourgeois might be minted but in my experience have no taste and your after shave and perfume smells like fly spray or bog cleaner. Best get upstairs to the luxury section. This is the problem: money but zero class. It's an unedifying spectacle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM

We= Teribus and me.

Jim, re that post from over 3 years ago you are so obsessed with, remember I stated unequivocally and repeatedly that religion played no part in the offending.
Evidence AGAINST Islamophobia, which is all you will find.

Richard, now you accuse me of being Right Wing.
I am not.
I am centre/Right which is the majority position in England.
I used to vote Labour in the Blair days.
IFA is very interesting, but how relevant to this?

Musket,
What is delicious is when you keep bringing up your confusion regarding restrictions in military hardware , comboned with confusing UN resolutions and sanctions. Each time you embarrass yourself, it just seems even funnier.

There are no EU restrictions on military hardware to Israel.
Israel is an associate member state, not at all regarded as a "rogue state" as you also stated.

You have much to be embarrassed about.
I do not.

None of you have provided any example of bigotry or Islamophobia.
You can't because there are none.
It is entirely made up.
None of you has challenged anything we actually have said.
You can't.
That is why you revert to false accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

Everyone is entitled to a POV

Not so, FW Keith - everyone is entitled to an INFORMED point of view. This leaves you & several other bloviators out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

"no part in the offending.
Evidence AGAINST Islamophobia, which is all you will find."
And I pointed out that 'Muslim' referes to the religion - you specified that it was not just Pakistanis but Pakistani "Muslims" - if it had nothing to do with their religion why not just Pakistanis?
"None of you have provided any example of bigotry or Islamophobia."
Doesn't claiming all male Pakistani Muslims are implanted to make them want to shag underage girls count as Islamophobia then - just like it doesn't count as being racist?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM

Jim, I was just quoting back to Don his question that I was answering.
That is why it was in quotes.
I did not put in the word "Muslim" at all.
I used quotes to show that the words were not mine.
I had already told Don,

"Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not."

My position was emphatically NOT Islamophobic, and you had to go back over three years to find that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:17 PM

Stu...I put the word liberal in inverted commas when I refer to fascists masquerading as liberals.
There are a fine selection of them hard at work on this forum, attempting to silence anyone who does not agree with every minute detail of their ideology.
I favour a liberal society, but not at any cost, when social experiments are seen not to be in the interests of society people must be allowed to speak against them without being called bigots, racists, or homophobes.    That is Fascism at work.

Politically I am of the left, always have been, but I look at issues not from a politically ideological position but look at each issue objectively and work out what I think to be in the long term interests of society.

The unregulated immigration we have seen for the last decade was always going to cause social problems, as we do not have the infrastructure to cope with huge numbers of immigrants....nothing to do with race or colour, but anyone speaking against immigration a few years ago was immediately attacked by "liberals", for holding "bigoted" or "racist" views.
The political climate has changed dramatically recently as the truth gently sinks in (Thanks mainly to Mr Farage and his party), but still the "liberal" stormtroopers chant their mantra......"Equality" "democracy" "freedom"! In reality we have none of these things and most intelligent people know that our political system is corrupt, our economic system based on greed and the antithesis of equality.

In place of real equality, democracy and freedom, we have homosexual "marriage" and multiculturalism....what a joke!

You will note that I also put homosexual "marriage" in inverted commas, as it bears little resemblance to traditional marriage, is unwanted by most homosexuals, is rarely monogamous and serves no purpose in society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

""Time I think to repeat my post/prophesy of 28/7 which was written before the Caliphate was announced.""


""the best guesser is the best prophet."" Marcus Tullius Cicero)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

"Jim, I was just quoting back to Don his question that I was answering."
Fine - you said you believed it - what's the problem?
You are one of these nasty little bar-steward who responds to criticism of Israel as "Antisemitism", and, when you invent statements by Muslim "experts" (as in your "implant" belief, those who question those statements become "racists".
Yet you make sweeping derogatory statements about Muslims, you plead a special case for yourself.
You seem to occupy a world where you feel you can manipulate where others make their contributions, and where you can misrepresent the statements of others whenever it suits you to do so.
Who the hell do you thing you are, with your "infallibility" and your "I win, you lose"?
Your good fairy may think you are a good debater (maybe he should have gone to oxford - I believe they have a good debating society there) - I think you are an arrogant little know-nothing with a tendency towards religious mania.
Behave like an adult on these discussions or go and play in the garden
At least Ake doesn't try to pretend he isn't a homophobic racist - take a lesson from a season out-of-the closeter - then you'll be a man my son (sort of)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

Abu Bakr is leading a group of Islamic hardliners and jihadists with a small group of Sunni extremists who wish to return to a position of power.
Using weaponry from the Iraq invasion and heavy armaments abandoned by poorly led Iraqi troops, the group ISIS has occupied an area stretching from Syria across Iraq and called on all Muslims to support its goal of an independent Islamic state in what is now a large part of Iraq and Syria.

Moderates of all Islamic sects want no part of this move toward a hardline Islamic state.

Iran is providing its brother Shias in Iraq with ground fighter planes and other armaments, and the government of Syria also is providing some help, including air strikes.

ISIS may have some support from Sunnis, but it is too hardline for the support to last.

Israel has announced support for an independent Kurdish state.

Iraq, with a Shia government that seems to not want help from Sunnis in Iraq nor the Kurds, seems too weak to do much, unless the U. S. makes the grievous mistake of doing more than providing advisors and some air strikes.

The map may eventually become more realistic, with independent Kurdish, Sunni and Shia states, the last closely allied with Iran.

The development of the situation, and its resolution, however temporary, will be interesting to watch, but "hands off," with the possible exception of air strikes against "caliphate" leaders, seems the best option at present.

Whether Israel will provide more than just verbal support to the Kurds also could have an important effect on the future of the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM

An interesting article on Iraq from 2007. It indicates this countries borders are artificially pulled together from theboutside, are loosely held together by strong-arm leaders and only after its citizens can work out its own boundaries, reflecting ethnic and religious differences .

Cause of Iraq's chaos: bad borders 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:22 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/opinion/the-caliphate-fantasy.html

That's an interesting and informative article from the Opinion page of the NYT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:01 PM

Thank you Guest#. Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

The Cambridge Union Society's debates are at least as good as those at its Oxford equivalent, which it preceded in foundation by eight years (Cambridge Union 1815; Oxford Union 1823 obviously in imitation).   I debated in the Cambridge Union frequently 60 years ago in my student days, & was also a member of one of its administrative committees. So I don't quite know what Jim on about at 0258 pm; but that's nothing new: he does rather tend to make his facts up, rather than ascertaining what is correct -- Cambridge Union Society & Oxford Union Society can both be easily accessed on Wikipedia.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM

Guest#, your link to the NY Times article by Khaleb Diab says virtually the same as he does in the link I posted here: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=154376&messages=1412&page=2&desc=yes#3636008 the one to which Musket remarked "What's all this bollocks about wine etc?" and to which I responded "Good ol' Musket, clueless as ever - talk about thick. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 AM

Bobad and Akenaton.

Serving the community in restoring your cynicism in the human race.






Jesus fucking wept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:45 AM

"The Cambridge Union Society's debates are at least as good as those at its Oxford "
If you think Keith is a "good debater" it's a pity you didn't attend more of them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM

This issue has gone beyond debate, these people are dangerously crazy and dangerously well armed.
Every day they become more powerful, the "fifth columns" are already at work in every country in the world.

Aided by.....what did Stalin call them?    "useful idiots"?
These "idiots" are drawn to every divisive and destructive cause, social and political.

In truth they are in themselves a menace to society.
They have created a Disneyland Society, where all is sunshine and flowers, problems are carefully airbrushed away, until, as Teribus has remarked, some poor bastards have to face up to them.

Are they fools or enemies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM

Jim,
Yet you make sweeping derogatory statements about Muslims,

This is a lie Jim.
I have never criticised Islam or Muslims in general.
Never.
In that thread I was at pains to state over and over that it was nothing to do with religion.
I had made abundantly clear that the word "Muslim" in Don's question had no relevance, but I quoted him.

If you want to discuss it with me further, do it on pm or I will open a dedicated thread so no-one has to see us rehash this shit yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

It is very odd, Keith, how you say you do not intend to slur all Muslims, but so many of us see that your repeated comments - almost all of which criticise some Muslims or persons of colour - can only, in reasonable eyes, convey the impression that you seek generally to denigrate Muslims or persons of colour. These are the preponderance of your posts. The only reasonable interpretation is that that is your agenda.

Much the same goes for Terry, and Ake.

I have not checked but I think I have seen posts by Bobad on other topics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM

"I have not checked but I think I have seen posts by Bobad on other topics."
Bobad has a tendency to draw his cut-'n-pastes (he offers nothing else) from extremist sites like 'White Supremist' and 'Muslim Watch' (probably the largest selection ever on this forum).
Recently he has tended towards 'Gatestone' and extremist Zionist site.
"I have never criticised Islam or Muslims in general."
Sorry - "all Male Pakistani Muslims" isn't quite all Muslims, but the entire male gender of a million and a half people is enough to be going on with.
If not religion - why specify Muslims?
As Richard points out, your persistent attacks on Muslims, not to mention your domination of thread after thread on the subject until they disappear into oblivion (known as filibustering) indicates somewhat of a tendency, you might say.
" I will open a dedicated thread so no-one has to see us rehash this shit yet again."
Please don't claim this as a blessing as you have in the past, but open as many threads as you like - that is your right as a member.
I will raise your extremist Islamophobia wherever and whenever I see fit - that is my right as a member.
Don't you ***** dare interfere with that right ever again - who do you think you are?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

You are just believing your own prejudice and preconceptions.
I have no agenda, and you have no grounds to assume such a thing.

You have never highlighted any bigoted statement of mine, only claimed that I must have made them.
I never have.

Instead of just applying labels to me that do not fit, please just respond to what I actually say.
Discuss and debate.

I have never criticised Muslims or Islam, only ever Islamists and Islamism.
In discussing grooming gangs, i referred to a factual over-representation of one demographic, never "people of colour."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

"Doesn't claiming all male Pakistani Muslims are implanted to make them want to shag underage girls count as Islamophobia then" - Christmas wrongly attributing a comment to Keith A of Hertford that HE didn't actually make

Keith A has told you repeatedly that the comment you ascribe to him was a Quote from someone addressing the phenomenon of gangs grooming vulnerable juvenile females for sex in the UK.

Unfortunately Christmas only hears what he wants to hear and only reads and acknowledges whatever suits and agrees with his preformed opinions on any given issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM

"Keith A has told you repeatedly that the comment you ascribe to him was a Quote from someone addressing the phenomenon of gangs grooming vulnerable juvenile females for sex in the UK
And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote - there was never such a quote from any public figure and if there had been, it would still be a racist smear on an entire community.
As it is, he invented his 'quotes' to dig himself out of the Klarts

Perhaps you might like to fill in his omission -
No?
Thought not!
You might have some luck on the 'BNP', 'Muslim, Watch', or similar sites
Read what has been written Corporal Jones
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM

I found this on Wiki and was trying to think what it reminds me of.

"It was the stated policy of the Nazis to kill, deport, or enslave the Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and other Slavic populations, whom they considered inferior, and to repopulate the land with Germanic people.[2][3][4] The entire urban population was to be exterminated by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class.[2] The policy of Lebensraum implicitly assumed the superiority of Germans as members of an Aryan master race who by virtue of their superiority had the right to displace people deemed to be part of inferior races.[3] The Nazis insisted that Lebensraum needed to be developed as racially homogeneous to avoid intermixing with peoples deemed to be part of inferior races.[3] As such, peoples deemed to be part of inferior races living within territory selected to be Lebensraum were subject to expulsion or destruction.[3] Nazi Germany also supported other nations' pursuing their own Lebensraum, including Fascist Italy .[5]"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

Keith has form when it comes to saying something and later saying he was only quoting. Happy for it to be from him till he gets challenged though, on numerous occasions.

Untrue.
Just more made up Musket shit.

I was just quoting back to Don his question FROM THE PREVIOUS POST if you care to look.
That is why it was in quotes.
I used quotes to show that the words were not mine.

What is the demographic you feel ok to demonise as groomers and rapists then Keith?

None.
I did refer to the fact that offenders of one specific crime were disproportionately from the British Pakistani community.



"Mr Shafiq profiles the offenders as Asian men, predominantly Pakistani, who want easy sex and are prepared to pay to abuse girls as young as 13.
Of 68 recent convictions for on-street grooming, 59 were of British Pakistani men.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9252003/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Mohammed-Shafiq-the-campaigner-who-stood-up-to-the-abusers.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM

Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads.
This is the last response I will make here.
I will open another if you keep on.
Pity they closed the last one opened for that purpose.

And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote

I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin-Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation and ascribe it to the culture (nb NOT reigion) of their community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM

Corrected version.
sorry.

Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads.
This is the last response I will make here.
I will open another if you keep on.
Pity they closed the last one opened for that purpose.

And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote

I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation and ascribe it to the culture (nb NOT religion) of their community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 AM

"Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads."
It is not up to you to decide what is "related and unrelated" - you have been told this often enough.
As far as I am concerned, anything you have to say on Muslims id directly relevant to your contempt and hatred of them, as confirmed so clearly by you in your statement - look on it as having your record being taken into consideration before passing sentence, if you like.
You are entitled to open as many topics as you like, just as I am entitled to post where I consider relevant - if you in any way attempt to interfere with my right to do so again I will have you stopped, and if you persist, I will request your removal.
You challenged anybody to show how you have not attacked the Muslim people or their religion - I responded to that challenge - yu don't like the response - tough!
No matter how many names you put up, you have at no time produced a single statement of anybody of note condemning an entire ethnic community in the manner you have - it would have been both illegal and and career suicide for any of them to have done so.
Now, get out of everybody's way and let us get on with these discussions without your interference.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM

Did you two guys ever watch the movie, Fatal Attraction?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Bunny boiling is one of Keith's specialties - I think Jamie Oliver has made an offer for the recipe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:39 AM

I have no contempt or hatred of Muslims and have never expressed any.
In that thread I stated probably a dozen times that it was not about Muslims or Islam.
All you can do is wilfully misinterpret that single three year old post.
Nothing else from that whole thread or all my years of posting supports your made up accusation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

Black is the new white

Demographic is the new Muslim


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

ISIL (Islamic state of Iraq and Levant) threat discussed by Saudis and John Kerry, also support for moderate opposition in Syria. The Saudis increase forces on border with Iraq.
At present, the Saudi king is pressing Sunnis in Iraq to support the Iraqi government (see Reuters report, June 28, "Saudi king tells Kerry he will press Sunnis to join Iraq government." The Saudis distrust Maliki because he seems to represent only Shias in Iraq, but the ISIL forces are getting close to Saudi (Sunni) territory.

The stupid and childish "he said/he didn't say" argument is tiresome and contributes nothing to a cogent discussion about the effect of ISIL on the Iraq-Iran-Saudi Arabia region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM

Historian Juan Cole looks at the history of caliphates, and their varying meaning over time.

Let us please call it the "so-called Islamic State," since it bears all the resemblance to mainstream Islam that Japan's Om Shinrikyo (which let sarin gas into the subway in 1995) bears to Buddhism.
... After Ali's assassination, the Umayyad kings ruled (661-750), and though some scholars have found that they claimed religious charisma, they were just Arab kings. A branch of the family of the Prophet tracing itself back to his uncle Abbas began making claims to rightful rule, however, and they were popular among the new converts from among the Persians in Iran, and in 750 they made a revolution against the Umayyads. They became the Abbasid caliphate, ruling until the Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258.
Following that defeat by the Mongols, the caliphate in its original form was pretty much dead. Cole writes that while many kings and rulers styled themselves as caliphs, they didn't have the religious authority that implied. Though the Ottoman Sultan declared himself Caliph in 1880, he was not always seen that way by the world's Muslims. While the Turkish state's abolishment of the caliphate claim in 1924 is generally seen as a great tragedy, it rests on revisionist history, in Cole's telling.

The end of the caliphate did not matter to most Muslims. You don't need a caliph to pray five times a day or fast Ramadan. In Egypt, Ali Abd al-Raziq, a court judge, argued in modernist fashion that no caliph is necessary. Some Egyptian clerics were uncomfortable with the idea, but they lost the argument. There was some jockeying to resurrect the caliphate in the mid-1920s, and the Egyptian king, Fuad I, threw his crown in the ring. But the fact is that none of the newly forming nation-states wanted a transnational authority like that, and no consensus could be reached, and the caliphate (such as it was, since I don't think most Muslims bought into Abdulhamid's project) lapsed again.
Small groups of cult-like fundamentalists ever after hoped for a restored caliphate, but it isn't something on the minds of 99% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims. Sunni Islam has come sociologically to resemble Protestant Christianity, lacking a formal center and largely organized on the basis of the nation-state.
Col. (Ret.) Pat Lang, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency's Middle East desk, is on the same page.

IMO, this declaration of the caliphate of Ibrahim is a terrible blunder for ISIS.   The Islamic world will unite in hostility against such ambitions and claims. Most people in these countries want to retain their local national ientities or at least to have states that may better reflect their ethnic identity. Even the Saudis, who have toyed with the notion of absulute authority given to their wahhabi faith, will recoil in horror from the evident threat presented by the idea of an umma ruled by the likes of these people.
To be sure, Brigadier FB Ali, a retired Pakistani officer and frequent contributor to Lang's blog, says there is cause for concern.

Undoubtedly, governments in Muslim countries will reject this declaration. However, this 'caliphate' may well appeal to the many Muslims all over the world who want Islam to govern their lives and the countries in which they live, but who reject their present governments as not being Islamic. Especially vulnerable to such ideas would be young men in the Muslim diaspora, many of whom feel this need more acutely than their brethren back home. ISIS can expect an increase in Muslim recruits from the West.
What lends substance to this declaration by ISIS is its capture of a large piece of territory in the Muslim heartland, something the other jihadi outfits cannot match.
Writing at the Long War Journal, Thomas Joscelyn points out that 9 major jihadi groups in Syria have already rejected Baghdadi's claim.

In a series of tweets in both English and Arabic, Abu Sulayman al Muhajir, a top sharia official in the Al Nusrah Front, sharply criticized the Islamic State's announcement. While using the hashtag #Khilafah_Proclaimed in his tweets, Abu Sulayman argued that the Islamic State's failure to consult jihadi leaders before making the announcement "is a clear breach of Islam."
"The situation has not changed at all here," Abu Sulayman said in one tweet, referring to Syria. "Only difference I see is there is a stronger 'Islamic' justification for them [the Islamic State] to kill Muslims." The Islamic State has long justified the killing of other rebel fighters and leaders by arguing that it is the only legitimate authority in Iraq and Syria.
Abu Sulayman, who is from Australia, served as a mediator during al Qaeda's early attempts to reconcile the ISIS with other jihadist groups in Syria. When those efforts failed, he became a vocal critic of the ISIS and is now a staunch opponent of the Islamic State.
Time will tell if Baghdadi's grab for power will allow him to hold on to a piece of Iraq and Syria. The smart money is that he won't, if history recent and distant is anything to go buy. The Ottoman Sultan declared himself a caliph in 1880, partly in the hopes that Indian Muslims would turn on the colonial British administration there. It didn't work - and during World War I, Indian Muslim troops under British command helped defeat the Ottoman Empire in what was to become Iraq.

The Taliban's Mullah Omar tried the caliph gambit too. In 1996, shortly after after conquering Kandahar and on the verge of controlling Afghanistan, he wrapped himself in a cloak purported to have been worn by the prophet Mohamed and declared himself the leader of the world's Muslims. Today, Omar lives in Pakistan."


http://news.yahoo.com/self-declared-iraqi-caliph-wants-rule-world-193418351.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM

Your persistence in driving these threads into the ground with your Islamophobic rantings would be more than enough, if it wasn't for your having summed it up so beautifully in one posting
When you are challenged about your statement, you have confirmed that it is still your belief, you have blamed somebody else for putting the idea into your head (failing to produce a single example from anybody else), now you appear to be claiming you only confirmed it was your opinion because you were quoting Don (whatever that particular piece of gibberish means!).
Whoever said it, it a racist statement, and anybody who says he "now believes it" is a racist.
To misquote my old mun (she of the world's oldest profession, according to Terry the Toy Trooper) - "if Jack Straw put his finger in the fire, would you do the same?"   
Anyway, despite the fact that it's always a pleasure talking to you, song annotation calls - only another 200 to go!!
"Misinterpretation" now - is it - that's a new one to add to the list!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:17 AM

The claim to a caliphate by ISIL has little to do with the caliphate as an historical unit; it died with the sack of Baghdad and the removal of the caliphate to Cairo, where it became a tool of the Mamluk rulers.

ISIL claims to be the successor to the political and religious community established by the Prophet Muhammad. The ideal of a united church and state leadership is an old one, and desired by many Muslims.
With large areas in Syria and Iraq, ISIL has effectively eliminated the boundary between the two areas.

Muslim beliefs at present range from moderate to rigid. Shiites believe that leadership should have followed through descent from Ali; creating an early split. It is doubtful that the groups will get together, especially with the jihadist elements in ISIL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM

"Levant" is used as a translation of part of the Arabic name, ISIL (ISIS); an old term for the eastern Mediterranean area now Syria, Lebanon, Israel and Jordan. This is not what is meant by the leader and self-proclaimed caliph, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

More elements of the rebels fighting the Syrian government seem to be falling to ISIL. Most of the villages along the Euphrates River are under ISIL control.
Associated press, July 3.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

I have long supported the establishment of a free state for the Kurds called Kurdistan.

If it is going to thrive, it must have a port on the Mediterranean Sea.

That would require concessions from Turkey, which are unlikely.

Kurdistan would also need to get land now considered part of Iran, although a trade with Iraq for the Shiite-controiolled area in the southheast is a possibility.

A viable Kurdistan is unlikely with just a division of current Iraqi teritory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM

Your persistence in driving these threads into the ground with your Islamophobic rantings
Jim, I have NEVER posted an Islamophobic rant.

failing to produce a single example from anybody else
I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation, ascribing it to the culture (NOT religion) of their community.

Culture is "implanted" in all of us.
Not a word I would choose, but that is how Don put it to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:58 PM

"They all acknowledge the over-representation, ascribing it to the culture (NOT religion) of their community."
Who is talking about "over-representation" - stop changing the subject
Your claim was over all make Muslim Pakistanis - and you damn well kow this - that is what you claim to have been stated by others and that was an extreme example of extremism
That is what will return to bite your bum for the foreseeable future.
"Culture is "implanted" in all of us."
No it isn't, and certainly not to have it off with underage women
"but that is how Don put it to me."
So now it's Don's fault you made your claim
The more you wriggle and try to blame somebody else the more dishonest you appear - and the more fun this gets
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:43 PM

In the spirit of the thread title and what it's s'posed to be about, I am wondering just how many of you people have contemplated ISIS and part of its end goal.

Here is the ISIS map as they view the future.

Any comments from anyone? Because what we are seeing is a blueprint for World War III.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:46 PM

The more you wriggle and try to blame somebody else the more dishonest you appear - and the more fun this gets

Only you find this tedious old shit "fun" Jim.
Everyone else on Mudcat wants you to drop it.

I do now believe that culture caused the over-representation because all those well known and respected members of that culture said so.
They know more about it than us.

I think culture effects us all to some extent.
If you challenge that, what proportion will you accept Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:48 PM

Guest#, that would be phase 2, not the "end goal."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

Don't know about 'everyone'; but I surely wish Jim would drop it.

Honestly, Jim, in the spirit of our rapprochement, you really have milked this one dry over 3 years of looking for another stick to beat Keith with, not finding it, & having to fall back on this one yet again -- which, as you know, I think you got wrong from the off, but no point going into that again (I at least flatter myself that I know when a topic has served its turn & it might be the time to find a new one, or else shut the hell up).

Give it a rest, Jim. Seriously. You are not going to impress or convince anybody by boring them into a permanent coma...

Best

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Otherwise, I warn you yet again -- You shall not go to the Ball...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM

So, do I have to start a new thread to get my question answered without all the brouhaha about who said what how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:11 PM

Guest, your question was answered days ago. I'll re-post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/opinion/the-caliphate-fantasy.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

My friend, Tarek Fatah, expounds on what constitutes an "Islamic State":

http://tarekfatah.com/what-in-the-world-is-an-islamic-state/


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM

"Shiites believe that leadership should have followed through descent from Ali; creating an early split."

Kinda reminds me of RC church believing that the Christian leadership should follow St. Peter through the Popes-cheating a later spilt and significant discord (even lots of bloodshed) with other Christians, who saw things differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:29 PM

Oops that was me, again, as guest. And I was hoping to get people here to give an answer...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:16 AM

The opening post:

"Subject: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Can they really just assert dominance over all moslems, and does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?"


The answer: No


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:14 AM

Every religion has it's share of crazies. But they do not represent the majority of the faith.

I am a Christian. The Reverend Fred Phelps was also a Christian. (Allegedly) We didn't see eye to eye on much. Most Christians didn't see eye to eye with that jerk.

I knew a group of Iranian Muslims in college. They were very nice people, who dressed and behaved like the rest of us, except that they liked brighter colors, and they didn't drink alcohol. (Just very very very strong coffee.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

"Honestly, Jim, in the spirit of our rapprochement, you really have milked this one dry over 3 years of looking for another stick to beat Keith"
Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.
That he is the extremist he is is fine by me - there are lots of extremists in the world - thankfully they don't saturate the threads after thread of this forum with their extremism with a last-man-standing attitude until they crash to the ground in flames.
Nor do they use this forum as a competition in order to "win" something, or to declare themselves "infallible" and those who disagree "muppets"
Nor do they try to run this forum as if they owned it, telling the rest of us what is and what is nor relevant, or what right we have to comment on subjects because we "no longer live here", or we are "anti-British because we criticise her policies and politicians..... or all the other unpleasant tricks used to divert from intelligent discussion
I really am not interested in Keith's politics - I'm not sure what they are and I don't think he is fully - they are certainly not backed up with any fore-knowledge, so they seem not to inspire enough interest for him to have made any efforts read up on the subjects he declares himself "infallible" on.   
The vast majority of contributors here take part out of a genuine interest in the subjects - to Keith, it is a matter of "I win - you lose" - which fucks it up for everybody else over and over again - go and count how many times he has said exactly that, or how many times he had dominated the thread with his postings, or has been the last poster.
I enjoy discussions like these - I don't get a lot of them here in the wild west.
They help me keep in touch with things and stimulate me to follow them up.
I have learned a great deal from participating in them - mainly from people I don't necessarily agree with - and would not like to see more threads naused up by Keith's attention-seeking and (often self-declared) ignorance on subjects he knows s.f.a. about, but which interest me and others.
Taking part in these discussions with Keith present is like trying to carry on a serious conversation, with a precocious, attention-seeking child in the same room.
Also in the spirit of rapprochement, sometime you give the impression of a proud parent whose child can do no wrong - we rally do need to 'Talk About Kevin' - sorry, should have said Keith.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.

I do not, except to defend myself from your wild accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM

And to occasionally defend yourself from reason...

Sorry Keith, you have form and it isn't just Jim either.

Do you also defend "we" from the "left"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

Will you give an example of my "form?"
Of course not!
You can't.
Just more made-up Musket shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:45 AM

I keep telling you. Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Quite simple really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM

Fine, Jim; I have no wish to be prescriptive. It has become a hobby of yours, and far be it from me...

I think I shall probably just stop following this particular sequence...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Me too (if not provoked otherwise)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM

Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Over thirteen thousand posts.
Not very helpful.

Please produce just ONE example of my "form."
Make it the very WORST example you can think of.

Will you?
OF COURSE NOT!

How could you when there are NONE!
It is all just more Musket made-up shit.

You are a hopeless liar Musket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

In response to Lady Jean, I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon.
He is an intelligent if somewhat "ecclesiastical" man......I have never heard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions.

In fact, I have never heard or read anything of that nature from practicing Christians, all of whom are extremely tolerant, even of my well known atheism.

I have always tried to understand why some folks feel the need for spiritual support, and have learned a lot in the process, Christians on the whole, try to follow the teachings of Jesus.....they are good tolerant people.
Islamists are crazy dangerous fanatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM

"I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon."

There's a lot to be said for atheists attending church. I don't go but can see the attraction, I like the ritual (which I find comforting in its consistency) and who can resist a good sing-song? The fact I don't believe a word of it is irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

Regarding moderation, I think those who habitually lie or misrepresent in discussion, are a menace to the forum and will eventually destroy it.

There are many decent members who stay silent when these people attack, and I'm sorry to say it is often their political views that keep them silent.
This is short term reasoning, as the important thing is freedom of discussion.....and the golden rule is always tell the truth, do not use multiple handles to support your views, and avoid personal abuse.

The moderators do well, it must be almost impossible and so bloody boring to keep checking and deleting the shit. It's up to the membership to speak up whenever gross bad behaviour occurs, its OUR forum too. Forget politics, freedom of expression is much more important, you people from the US should know that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM

"I have nev"eard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions."

I guess the good messages of the minister fell on infertile ground- (Possibly a good example of "doublespeak")?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

Ed I don't know what you are trying to insinuate, but there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

More doublespeak, Ake?
Orwell would "not" be proud of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

No doublespeak Ed. Everything I have written is clear and verifiable.

I take it you disagree? well lets hear your point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

"there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists" - Akenaton


No truer words ever stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

"Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists""
I spent much of the 60s on the streets protesting about Christian America pouring burning petrol (napalm) and carcinogenic chemicals (Agent Orange) on South East Asian peasants, with the backing of much of the Christian world
A decade or so earlier, Christian America, with the backing of Christian Britain dropped two horrific weapons on two Japanese cities, the effects of which are still evident in newborn children.
During WW2, 'Hitler's Pope', Pius XII, looked the other way while Italy's Jews were being herded into the gas chambers.
Christian Spain allowed the Luftwaffe to practice its skill on the market-goers of Guernica
The same church, some a couple of decades earlier blessed the bombs which were destined for the people of Abyssinia
A few years earlier, Christian "Gallant Little Belgium" slaughtered 10 million Congolese in pursuit of rubber.... how far do you want to go back?
"War is hell" - I understand!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

Let's see. Akenaton just said that all Christians are tolerant. He then says Islamists are dangerous fanatics.

What is the link between those two sentences?

Are Muslims as peaceful and tolerant as Christians then? Is there hope for you yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM

Actually, Ake, I spend very little time considering your one-dimentional, predictable and "sketchy" reasoning, as most if it I find quite simplistic in nature. While I am sympathitic that everyoes reasoning power is not objective and the same, I do find prejuduces ugly.

""We are least open to precise knowledge concerning the things we are most vehement about"" Eric Hoffer 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM

I believe many others likely noticed that example of "doublespeak" Musket. But, anyway, thanks for pointing it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?

Most Muslims are indeed tolerant people.
Islamists are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

I wasn't pointing it out to people, I was pointing it out to Akenaton as I do not think he has the intelligence to notice how his blind prejudice comes out.

Tell you what, I shall take his comment at face value and ask how Christians can ALL be tolerant when both Anglican and RC sects don't see gay people as equal. When women are barred from high office. When they fight attempts to lift Sunday trading restrictions so normal people have to suffer for their hobby.

Oh, and the murdering gangs in Uganda and CAR who rape and pillage in the name of their religion every bit as much as Islamist fanatics do in theirs. Not to mention the US baptist churches bank rolling the Ugandan politicians who tried to introduce capital punishment for being gay.

There are many good people on this planet. Statically, many of them are practicing Christians and Muslims. But neither can ignore the bad apples claiming affinity and neither religion is tolerant till every person regardless of their status has a chance at equal membership. A plague on both their houses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

"Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?"

CHRISTIAN TERRORISM

JEWISH DEFENCE LEAGUE

BOSNIAN GENOCIDE

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:38 AM

Yes Keith. I name it Christianism. It was starting to die out as people in The West became less superstitious and felt self conscious pretending to believe in make believe.

However, chiefly through advertising itself in areas of ignorant shit kickers, in particularly areas of Baptist strongholds in Dumbfuckistan, it became popular again. Indeed, you can't become President of the land of the free without claiming allegiance to it.

The most nasty elements are where they can practice their medieval traits such as Uganda.

I believe their slogan is contained in a call to arms song, and is "Christ thy right."




Easy isn't it? And no different to some of the Islamaphobia on this and countless other threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

I did not just mean bad people Musket you old chump.

Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy and the imposition on all people by force of Islamic rule under extreme, medieval Sharia Law.

Is there an equivalent movement in any other religion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

Rather than promote prejudice and hate towards those in other religions, Ghandi reached out to people of all religions, including Muslims (aks islamists).


Mahatma Gandhi's struggle against religious fanaticism.  


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

"Gandhi required Muslims to recognize that Islam like any other religion was neither the whole truth nor nothing but the truth."

" When some women were stoned to death in Afghanistan for allegedly committing adultery, Gandhi criticized it, saying that "this particular form of penalty cannot be defended on the ground of its mere mention in the Koran." and he added, "every formula of every religion has in this age of reason to submit to the acid test of reason and universal justice if it is to ask for universal assent."

Islamists would kill him for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM

including Muslims (aks islamists).

NO!!
Muslims ARE NOT also known as Islamists.
That is a very ignorant and dangerous lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy"
As are many of the groups names above
The U.S. hasn't been above sending in the Marines to overthrow democratically elected governments and even Mrs T described the dictator who murdered the democratically elected Allende as a fine example of democracy.
The U.S. has supplied arms, equipment and intelligence to overthrow democratically elected governments.
The whole Islamist mess came about because of the West's backing fundamentalists like rather than nationally approved leaders.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

Ed, sorry.
Misconception not lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

Definitions are difficult, when Muslims are members of Islam.

Islamist is "a set of ideologies holding that "Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life."
---
"Islamists generally oppose the use of the term, claiming their political beliefs and goals are simply an expression of Islamic religious belief. Similarly, some experts favor the term activist Islam or political Islam and some have equated the term militant Islam with Islamism.."

From Islamism, an article in Wikipedia.

Shouting about your particular usage is childish.

Also childish are the stupid he said/didn't say arguments, gone over and over again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for shouting down the suggestion that Muslims are Islamists Keith. I did notice.

In objective answer to your question, I would point out two things, and the second flows from the first;

Islamism is not a set doctrine. There are many people taking up arms in many different countries and calling themselves or being labelled islamist. Some complain about the others in a macabre "Peoples' Popular Front of Judea" stance. The aims are similar, the structure to follow are very different...

It is therefore a matter of numbers, in which there are Christian equivalents, and we don't need to look at Crusades or Inquisition to find it. When a Bishop declares he answers to a higher authority when commenting on equality law. When American Baptist organisations fund attempts to make being gay a capital offence in Uganda, when they and similar movements bomb abortion clinics and murder healthcare professionals working in them.

They just don't have the numbers, that's all. They claim they are real Christians and that you aren't. An Islamic version of Bobad would possibly quote them as representing all Christians judging by his track record.

In any event, the term Islamism, being two letters away from Islamic and confusingly meaning the same in pure word structure terms, was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people. hence I and many others scorn the term. No problem with another word, call them apricots if you like. But if scum can confuse paedophile and paediatrician, it doesn't take much for them to invoke the word Muslim when thinking terrorist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

"Islamist was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people."

Who coined the term and definition? Source?

The term started out innocently enough in articles 1993-2003, mostly denoting political Islam.

Then came the series of articles and diatribes in the press, notably one in Newsweek by a Hayri Abaza, Is it Islamic or Islamist ? (10-22-10)
The use of Islamist for the radical, extremists was endorsed, but Abaza also pointed out that the public would be confused, not grasping (his and others) distinction between Islamic and Islamist.

Perhaps radical should be added as a modifier; radical Islamist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?"
Are there any specific groups dedicated to the destruction of democracy?
Your claim that religion played any part in any of this has long been shot down - politics and power is what is happening.
Religion plays the same role it always did - validating warfare by giving it a cause - pretty much the same as 'God, King' and country' was used to inspire millions of young man to march to their deaths in WW1 or the way that the Empire was set up to civilise and Christianise the savage world - nothing to do with natural resources and cheap labour, of course!! .
Thes countries aren't democracies - they are by and large feudal monarchies.
To suggest that those fighting in Syria are enemies of democracy and freedom is is nutty as it gets - Syria has neither.
Iraq is a feudalist state torn to pieces by western intervention - there was a possibility that The Arab Spring might improve that situation was blown by cynical non-intervention - which would not have happened if oil had been an issue.
Exactly which democracy that Islamism is dedicated to overthrow are you referring to?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people.

More made up bollocks

hence I and many others scorn the term.


Many others?
Even more bollocks, or can you find one in the whole world?
No.

The word is in common usage, and well understood as being quite distinct from Islam and Muslim.
It is ignorant, dangerous and offensive to equate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

I am off now for a couple of weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the second (more measured and understanding) post,KAof H. Yes, it was my error in my last post- I meant, Islamic, not Islamist.

However, following up on that, I could not find a consistant definition of Islamist that defines it well (some online dictionaries have no definition).

Some of the definitions could well describe orthodox religious fanatics of any religion? Some definitions include only radicals, and others seem to include those dedicated non-violent muslims, mostly promoting a total islamic life, including governing (possibly much like many orthodox religious folks).

As Q notes, adding the word radical or militant Islamists would possibly give a clearer, more accurate meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

"I am off now for a couple of weeks."
Missing you already
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

For those still unclear on the distinction: Islam vs. Islamist


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

"Hamas seems to be losing control of the dozens of terror cells in the Gaza Strip.

    Hamas prevented local journalists from covering the ISIS rally in the Gaza Strip last month as part of its effort to deny the existence of ISIS in the Gaza Strip. But Hamas seems to be trying to cover the sun with one finger.

    The Gaza Strip is no longer only a threat to Israel, but also to Egypt. The only way to confront this threat is through security cooperation between Israel and Egypt."

ISIS Already in Gaza Strip


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

""Islamists would kill him (Ghandi) for that"

Possibly so-but, I suspect it would not have deterred him from reaching out and trying to build bridges?

However, the radicals need recruits. I suspect Ghandis approach would make it a a lot harder to get them and meld them into radicals. I suspect there are many reasons, historic and current, to build a case against those interested in controlling the Arab region, its people and its resources. This area was likely an incubation zone for radicalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM

Well said Keith!   But we must remember that Ian and his like don't care a fig about butchered children or real abuses of rights to life.
His world revolves around a much more important issue....the marriage rights of homosexuals!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

The article below nites the difference between radical and moderate islamists. Putting everyone in one camp is illogical, and simplistic, though it does support some folks distorted thinking towards other groups and people they dont like.

The Myth of Excluding Moderate Islamists in the Arab World 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for the link, Ed T.

Our mayor here in Calgary is a moderate Islamist. A fine man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM

I wish to know why the people who post here have not questioned ISIS's intent. Included in their territorial map is the entire country of Israel. I hereby accuse you of being Jew haters and of less worth than Nazis. You are despicable, the fucking lot of you. Seven million people have less worth to you than your ideal? In the parlance, may your balls rot.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:16 PM

Until something is done about Israel - i.e., giving the Palestinians a state and getting Israel out of the West Bank, they are always going to have a target drawn on them. The U.S. has let them get away with a lot of nonsense for too long. Every time there is progress in peace talks - more settlements are announced. They do it EVERY TIME. Israel isn't an innocent victim in a lot of its own troubles.

I haven't followed this thread, I just looked to be sure that someone signing their name "Bruce Murdoch" really is Bruce. So I'm just responding to your angry outburst - I find myself much less ardent a fan of Israel as they continue to goad their neighbors. Yes they have been victims, in a lot of ways for centuries. But for today and in the here an now, they aren't behaving themselves well. The romance of the Jewish homeland is gone, it is now a long-running tragedy for many people.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:33 AM

You're talking philosophy, ma'am. I'm talking about a pending genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:00 AM

Our guest Bruce is excitable.

The map published by ABC News has been shown to be a fake. So far, ISIS/ISIL has not produced any map showing their intent. They have been consolidating their hold on a swatch of Syria and Iraq. They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims.

In case my mention that the mayor of Calgary may be considered a moderate Islamist was unclear, our hard-working mayor, Naheed Nenshi, is a Muslim, who found almost no opposition in his run for re-election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:01 AM

Bruce is correct, these people are a "real and present danger" to the world....and Israel is right in the front line.
Sorry SRS, I share your views on the Palestinian predicament, but addressing this issue is more important for the safety of all.

It is, as in many other issues, a matter of priorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM

Q..." They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims."

Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones, by having a knife held to their throats?
We are not talking NYC here, more like the Wild West?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:17 AM

Why ISIS will fail - but not before murdering millions:

Al-Qaida's Seven Rules for the Effective Terrorist

ISIS is breaking all of them. It will live to regret it.

By William Saletan

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/06/osama_bin_laden_s_seven_rules_for_terrorists_isis_will_regret_not_following.single.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

"Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones"
So there we have it - we can't trust any of them so we should send them all back to where they came from, and those we can't....?
And maybe we should pack off all those homos at the same time before they give us all AIDS
Ranting racist garbage befitting the most squalid of the gutter-extremist sites.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

I genuinely don't think you help, Jim, by ranting immoderately in return. How about some attempts at rational reply rather than these knee-jerk denunciations, of any opinion differing from your own world-view, as malevolently motivated? We all know you are a man of strong feelings and high principles; but these infuriated outbursts of yours, full of boo-words like "ranting racist garbage" &c, really do your cause & pov no benefit. No-one has advocated "send 'em all back" &c. We are back to your accusing me that time of saying they are here to "steal our jobs", when you had to admit subsequently that I had in fact made no mention of jobs whatsoever, and you were just being "logically rhetorical" or some such evasive locution. Try simmering down a bit ~~ it will be better for your blood-pressure, as well as for your argumentative position.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM

Sorry Mike - this is basic stuff
Ake has been at this far too long to be open to reason - tried it years ago with his homophobia.
Blanket condemnation of the entire Muslim population as being a threat, either actual or potential, leaves you with no foothold n which to begin to argue.
I wouldn't bother to try to get Nick Griffin to see the error of his ways - why shoud I bother with a serial bigot?
I appreciate your intentions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

No Michael. You do not appease bastards. You shout them down and confront them.

You can't educate pork so why bother trying.

There is no such thigh as a moderate Muslim. There is no such thing as a moderate Christian. There is no such thing as a moderate Jew.

There are people who have religious belief and belonging. That does not make them a criminal using religion as an excuse for dominating others.

There are people who use their religion as an excuse for atrocity. But to say that every Muslim is a potential terrorist is no different than saying every Scottish man is a potential patient in Carstairs.

He is getting worse. He needs stamping on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

But, then, I disagree re homophobia, as you may recall from a post I put on another thread late last year & think it worth reposting here ~~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:40 AM

I really feel it time someone objected to all this abuse of Akenaton. He seems to me simply to be trying to draw attention to a statistical conclusion which he finds of concern. He repeatedly quotes the actual statistics, which seem to be from respectable sources, but which nobody SFAICS has actually disputed. Instead, he has been cast in the role of The Messenger To Be Shot.
I do not like the implication of his statistics either; but they do give pause for thought. I do not think the 'whataboutery' to which they have been subjected in any way argumentatively convincing. I particularly think Musket's messenger-shooting, in the form of constantly rendering the penultimate syllable of his nickname as 'hate', to be, not only unwitty in the extreme, but an exceptionally cheap shot: think about it a bit more deeply, Ian -- please.
Instead of constantly abusing the man, why don't some of you try to find a few genuine counter-arguments. You are all reminding me of the ones who oh-so-predictably scream 'racism' any time the values of any ethnicity are questioned or impugned. So why not look for a few convincing arguments to replace these constant squeals of 'gayist', which add nothing to the concerning question as to whether SMS does or does not appear to show a statistical unbalance in regard to STDs?
I repeat ~~ I hate the idea that this might be the case; but accusing the person who adduces evidence ['evidence', I repeat -- not mere assertion] of being purely hate-motivated seems to me but an unworthy, vain, irrational, and counterproductive reaction.


~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:32 AM

Then we must agree to differ on Ake's homophobia here.
I have never accepted his statistics as reliable, but to use them as a form of persecution, even if they were accurate, is unacceptable.
His basic stance has always been that homosexuality ids unnatural, optional and 'curable' - which is the basis of all homophobia.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

ISIS caught people by surprise. There will be pushback. Just because they say they want to do something doesn't mean they will be able to.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

Thank you Michael, you are a man of reason. A gentleman in the true sense of the word.

Ian and Jim, along with their acolytes know exactly what they are doing, their attacks are simply a tactic. They are afraid of the truth, afraid of their ideology, as they have nothing to put in its place. They have invested their lives in a handful of dross and they simply cannot bear to admit it.

It worries me that so many people remain silent when these tactics are used....I think most of the mods understand what is going on, but most of the membership seem to believe that I deserve to be punished for daring to rock the good ship Mudcat.

I have never condemned ALL Muslims, but I have condemned Islamists, who are regarded by most people as dangerous psychopaths.
Jim and Ian know that very well, but find it more useful to attack me personally than address the issue.
I am certainly not a "hater" of homosexuals, but am concerned about legislating in favour of a lifestyle which is so obviously unhealthy, and destructive to society and homosexuals.
The remark about a "knife to the throat" was to elucidate that "moderates" can be easily subverted by fundamentalist radicals when law and order has broken down in society.

Our misplaced interventions in Iraq and Libya have left a bitter harvest to be reaped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

Ake
You have had every opportunity to respond to what I have said; you choose to throw stones from a distance and stay silent.
How dare you suggest legislating for homosexuality to bring the world into the 21st century is "so obviously unhealthy, and destructive to society and homosexuals" - what century to you exist in?
"I have never condemned ALL Muslims,"
"Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones, by having a knife held to their throats" is doing just that - damned if they are terrorists (rightly) damned if they are not, because they could easily be
The issue has always been addressed
Personally, I gave up when you suggested that the Norwegian mass-murder Breivik when he slaughtered all those young people.
You didn't elucidate then and I don't suppose you will now.
I think our friend has made my point for me far better than I possibly could Mike
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM

What is going on is that Akenaton posts views that are a stain on Mudcat. A folk club thread was mentioned at a folk club I was at the other week and the organiser said they don't use Mudcat for anything as they don't wish the club to be associated with some of the hatred that infiltrates it now.

How dare you say that normal people getting on with their lives are destructive to themselves and society? How dare you call normal people "moderate" and infer that they could be subverted?

You are an embarrassment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM

Are Islamists in Tunisia terrorists?
In the Tunisian Assembly, a coalition of Islamists, leftists and liberals worked out a new constitution, "laying the foundation for a new democracy." CTV (Canadian) news, Jan 2014.
The moderate Islamist party, which holds 40% of the 216 seats in the assembly, backed down on putting religious inspired measures into the constitution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:29 PM

The leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, is destroying Shite mosques and holy places in territory his group controls. He is calling himself Caliph Ibrahim.
He is now the world's most wanted man.
I think his rule won't be long; only the most radical Sunnis and jihadists will support him.
An Iranian-supplied plane or a drone will end his roll.

Left behind, however, is the continuing Sunni-Shia split, just how the Iraqi lands will be divided, and whether a truce can be forged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

Good question, Q.

It will be interesting to seen if Tunisian Islamists mature into a responsible party in governance, or if they are biding their time. I think most of us are hoping for the former.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Shite Mosques? Hmmm. Freudian slip?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:14 PM

Jim....If "radical Christians" were about to slit my throat, or butcher my family if I did not accept their belief....and there was no structure of law and order to protect us, my atheism would be swifly abandoned, my views subverted.

Fortunately I do not live in Iraq, Syria, or Libya and I know of no Christians who would dream of such subversion.
Radical Islamists think it their duty to rid the world of those who disagree with their faith.

Rather like Ian thinks it his duty to rid this forum of me.
Their mindset is remarkably similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

In all the countries mentioned the conflict is a reaction to the West's actions - drones - Falluja - illegal oil wars, Abu Graib, Guantanamo, non-action on Assad (unless you count arms and equipment sales as action), Israel...
It is yet to be established that any of this has anything to do with "faith".
The only threat to the UK is in the part it has played and continues to play in all of these.
To use a conflict which started as an attempt to democratise the Middle East is simply agenda driving to back up your obvious hatred of Muslims - second only to your hatred of homosexuals.
If there is a risk to Britain, the answer lies in gaining the support of Muslims, not in antagonising them with hatred such as yours.
As far as I am concerned, people like you are as much a threat to our safety and well being as any radical islamist.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

What do you mean when you say that I am more of a danger than radical Islamists Jim? Do you mean that my words may upset them and cause them to slit all our throats, or blow us up, or fly aircraft into our tall buildings?.......I don't flatter my self that my views go any further than the pages of this forum, they are driven by other ideologies.

Get a grip man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM

Sorry- lost an 'i'.

Shiite or Shi'ite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

"I just looked to be sure that someone signing their name "Bruce Murdoch" really is Bruce."

Why would you question if it really is Bruce? If you don't know, he is someone who has been championing the fight against prejudice and injustice since the 60s and there is certainly much of that in evidence here at Mudcat. I say bravo Bruce - call them out for what they are and keep on fighting the good fight!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 10:52 PM

Bruce had a rather unflattering imitator stalk him for a few years, the old mudcat troll. If Bruce signs his name it's rare so we check to be sure that it's real. I know who he is - I hope we all know who he is!

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM

"What do you mean when you say that I am more of a danger than radical Islamists Jim?"
Because your hate is not aimed at them, but at Muslims.
You and your associate terrorism with being a Muslim - their religion, the way they dress, communities being "hotbeds" for terrorism - the classic Thatcherist "enemy within".
Despite the fact tat there are one nd a half million Muslims in Britain today, you have sneered at the idea of 'multiculturalism'.
If there is a problem with multiculturalism, it is because of those who are not prepared to accept 'strangers in our midst', certainly not because those coming to Britain are not prepared to integrate.
Survey show that Muslims, of all immigrants, are prepared to settle in Britain and be recocgnised as British, yet they remain the most persecuted and terrorised - and this pre-dates any 'Islamism' - Paki-bashing was a phenomenon throughout a large part of my life, certainly when I lived in London.
You have talked about terrorism among the Muslim communities - you claim that those who aren't terrorists are potential terrorists because of "the knife to the throat", in the past you have linked terrorism with immigration - you have merged the fact of Muslimism and terrorism into one single entity.
Simple question - what exactly do you propose should be done about the million and a half Muslims living in Britain today - send them back to their place of origin, electronically tag them - issue them with identity papers with a legal demand that they produce them on demand - ghettoise them so the can't move freely with us 'real Britons - or something else???
f there is a problem with returning Jihadists, a key factor to solving that problem is to win the hearts and minds of the Muslim people as a whole - even morons like Cameron have recognised and reiterated that fact.
This is not going to be possible if they continue to be made outsiders and are depicted as a threat.
Of course you views go further than this forum - they are to be found on every extremist site available, Muslim Watch, the N.D.L. the B.N.P., Ukip (though toned down there a little for the sake of political respectability)
You and yours have been long with us - you are a shameful part of history.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:39 AM

Jim, I can only assume that you do not comprehend what I have written.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:38 AM

Most of us would rather not comprehend what he writes either. I never thought there could be so much twisted hatred and cynicism in one person.

Even when there is nothing original in what he writes. He lets far right websites do his talking through cut and paste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM

"Jim, I can only assume that you do not comprehend what I have written."
Seems a good way to say nothing but try to give the impression you have.
You have a number of simple questions - assume I have a modicum of intelligence and answer them - doesn't get any more simple.
So far you have given a politicians answer - I'm surprised you didn't open with "I'm glad you asked me that question , but what I would like to make clear that my party is doing its utmost....."
Give us a break Ake!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:59 AM

Tha Palestinian Arabs have had a Homeland since 1923 or so.

775 of the Mandate Palestine territory, in violation of the treaty creating the Mandate, was split off and made into the Arab Homeland of TransJordan, where NO Jews were allowed to settle or even own property. This was accepted by the Arabs.

The REAMAINING 32+ % of the original Mandate were to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the treaties.

In 1948, THAT (Jewish Homeland) land was divided, but the Arabs would not accept any division less than ALL for the Moslems, so they attacked the Jews. Jordan occupied the West bank, and removed all of the Jewish population that had been there previously.


The Arabs LOST, and have been demanding the unconditional surrender of Israel ever since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM

You and your associate terrorism with being a Muslim

No-one has.
Only with being an Islamist, which if you have been following recent events is regarded currently as the greatest terror threat by far.

Survey show that Muslims, of all immigrants, are prepared to settle in Britain and be recognised as British,

That is good, but what surveys?
We know from MI5 and Anti-Terror Police that there are thousands of them here who regard the public as legitimate targets to attack and kill.
That may be a small proportion, but you seem to be denying it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

"Bruce had a rather unflattering imitator stalk him for a few years, the old mudcat troll. If Bruce signs his name it's rare so we check to be sure that it's real. I know who he is - I hope we all know who he is!"

Fair enough SRS. My first thought on reading your post was that you were questioning his identity because of his stand on this issue. My mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

Whatever appeared on a scrap of paper to suit the colonialist powers, the Arabs have occupied that territory for millienia
Neither side accepted the treaties fully - the Israelis went along with it and immediately began to slaughter to occupants, even as the Brits were steaming out to sea - they have been clearing the area by force ever since.
Whatever agreement is finally reached, it has to take that fact into account, including the millions of refugees Israel has refused to allow to return to their right homeland.
the lie that the Palestinian leadership ordered Palestinians to leave the area until the fighting sorted itself out surfaced recently - no such thing
Irish radio, under the direction of Erskine Childers, monitored broadcasts coming out of Israel at the time was in fact, the opposite was the case.
The instruction was to hold ground and remain where they were.
The problem here is a massive human tragedy - not documents drawn up decades ago which have no relevance to political expediency
Live with that fact
Ake just has, with his "knife to the throat" - you have always denigrated Muslim people with attacks on their culture.
We've learned to live with that
"That is good, but what surveys?"
You've been given them ad nauseum - read what has been put up.
Jim Carroll
MUSLIM BRITISHNESS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

"There are thousands of them here who regard the public as legitimate targets.."

No.

Wrong.

Unsubstantiated bollocks.

I thought we were getting two weeks off from stupid rash remarks?

Oh, and who are "they"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

Of course terrorism is associated with being moslem. You can't *be* a radical moslem (termed here islamist) without being moslem. The association is statistical - there were only three real types of terrorists in the recent before-time: ETA, Basque terrorists, who targeted Spanish and French civilian targets to gain political points for independence for the Basque countries; the IRA, Irish terrorists, who targeted British civilian targets to gain political points for independence for northern Ireland, and the (no neat set of initials) moslem (and arab, then) terrorists whom targeted American people and things which they believed to be christian, to gain political points against the West. After 9/11 ETA and the IRA decided not to do it anymore, so all we have left are the radical moslem terrorists, who are not only arabs anymore, see Nigeria for instance, but are still radical moslems. It is being moslem that does not predict being a terrorist, not the other way around.
Yes, an American christian couple of guys did bomb an American building full of government civilians who weren't civilians in their twisted little minds, but there is no global movement among christians or Americans in general to target we Americans for being perceived as christian. (There is a massive American christian movement against those who aren't both, but that's another thread.)
When the WTC was bombed the first time it pretty much *had* to be moslem radical anti-Western terrorists, but I was accused of racism when I said so, although the particular accuser shut right up when I was right. But who else targeted Americans, at the time? This was pre-OKCity, after all, we didn't know about the homeboys, but still, if you are a terrorist today, you are certainly radical, religious, and moslem.
Being moslem, however, does *not* make you likely to be a terrorist because so few moslems are that radical, even though all the radicals left are moslem.
It's exactly like being a New Yorker compared to living in the States. You can't live in New York and not live in the States, but just because you live in the States doesn't mean you have any likelihood at all of living in New York.
And those of you who know me know whereof I get my experience with terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:23 PM

"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks, the director general of MI5 has warned."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24454596


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM

"You can't *be* a radical moslem (termed here islamist) without being moslem."
Fine - in which case the current cases of clerical abuse must be implicated with being a Christian - not individual examples, but a decades old practice.
The religion - culture - nationality of criminals has nothing to do with their crimes, until such time it is established otherwise
So far it has not been.
On the other hand, oil wars and illegal invasions can be linked directly to belonging to an oil hungry and dependent nation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

The priest-child-abuse thing is more than "associated with" being christian, it's a christian priest child abuse thing. Doesn't make christians child abusers, or make them priests, although to be a priest you do have to be a christian and to be a child-abusing priest you have to be a priest. Doesn't mean christians are child abusers any more than moslems are terrorists that terrorists are moslems and priests who abuse children are christian - the latter doesn't mean christians are either priests or child abusers.   It doesn't even mean that *priests* are child abusers that child abusing priests are priests. You can't go in that direction. That's what I'm saying. But you can't divorce the two just because inclusion is one-way either, there is that inclusion you have to allow for. Not to end too many sentences with prepositions.

But this thread has morphed into a version of the Islamic Radicalism thread and I'd really, really like to get back to the question of the Caliphate. If people followed them, would that make them legit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM

MI5's chief said "thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK;" What are the safeguards? How were they identified? Can they be deported?

Parker said "the most direct and immediate threats to the UK" are Al Quaeda and its affiliates in Pakistan and Yemen.

Will extremist elements in the UK and other western countries recognize ISIL as a leader, or remain apart from the "caliphate?"
I think they will ignore the "caliph."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:21 PM

"If people followed them, would that make them legit?"

I guess that would depend on the number of people following them. As it stands the "Caliphate" is being derided by many Muslims so time will tell. Azzam Tamimi, an academic who writes on Islamic movements, says that it is unlikely anyone except "some frustrated youth" would be receptive to Baghdadi's declaration.

"Such fanatic and desperate movements emerge usually in response to a profound crisis. Yet, their demise is usually rapid because of their tendency to be nihilistic," Tamimi said. They "fail miserably when it comes to winning over the normal and decent".


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM

Not sure what the standard for "legit" would be?

However, most governments are seen as the governing body after awhile if they establish a working government to run the cohntry, regardless of how they acquired power and if they are democratic, or a military or religious-run government or not-look at Iran, for example.

If a new power piss people off, nationalize resources, and fail to play ball with other countries, it is often a rougher ride to be seen as legitimate by other nations. Take what we now see as China, for example. Cuba, which has a similar givernment to China) is an odd example, which is pretty much recognized as legit, except by the US of A. The PLO had an observer seat at the United Nations before they really ran a government. (Oddly enough, the Holy Sea has permanent observer status at the United Nations).


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

That is not a complete list of terrorist "wars".

Here are a couple of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

Hmm, what happened there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam

Even if you support the "freedom fighters" they all attacked civilian targets at least as much as military ones.

Even the first victim of the Mau Mau was a non-combatant woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

"Doesn't mean christians are child abusers any more than moslems are terrorists"
Drink to that a hundred times over - whoops - I already have done.
"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks"
MI5 holds information on and considers security risks: those of us who took to the streets protesting about Vietnam, or Chile, or the Greek coup, or protests about the illegal Iraq invasion, or the Poll Tax protests, or those of us who supported the miners strike .... you may go back at least as far as The Russian Revolution and The Spanish Civil War to find a long list of enemies of the state.
Their suspects have included Trades Union leaders, politicians, cabinet ministers, even Prime Ministers....
Anybody vaguely to the left of Attila the Hun is considered a security risk by them - it is part of their job description to regard any challenge to the status-quo as 'a threat' - no doubt more than one Mudcatter appears on their long list of 'risks'
If there is a risk from returning fighters, then we have to know what that risk is and how it should be dealt with - little response on that score from our usual suspects.
The alternative is, as they have persistently done, pointed the finger at the entire culture.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM

A Twitter post Thursday by supporters of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), now calling itself the Islamic State (IS), has promised a Holocaust against the Jews.

"The Real Zionist Holocaust is Predicted in the Hadiths! The Hour [resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the tree will say: "Oh, Muslim, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, kill him! THE PROMISED Holocaust," the terrorist group's Islamic State Media a graphic posted on its @ISIS_Conquests's Twitter account said.

This hadith has proven popular with Islamic extremists of all stripes, ranging from IS to Hamas – and even on television in the Middle East.

Daniel Pipes, an expert on jihadism, said the hadith likely was a recruitment tool.

"​Yes, ​calling for a holocaust against Jews refers to a violently anti-Semitic strain among jihadis and will surely appeal to some of them," Pipes said in an email to the Investigative Project on Terrorism.

Anti-Semitic propaganda has played an important role in the terrorist group's recruitment effort. Its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, placed Jews on the side of evil in a speech posted Tuesday on the Internet in which he called on Muslims to join him.

"O ummah of Islam, the world today has been divided into two camps and two trenches … The camp of Islam and faith, and the camp of kufr (disbelief) and hypocrisy … all being led by America and Russia, and being mobilized by the Jews," al-Baghdadi said.

In another such video released on Twitter, IS told jihadists to "Break the crosses and destroy the lin­eage of the grand­sons of mon­keys."

Some jihadist supporters are calling on the group to open a new front against Israel.

"@ISIS_Conquests Hey #ISIS please do us all a favour & open up a front against Israel. Surely they are the greatest enemy of humanity?" Akhmet Qassam, a supporter from Scotland, asked the group on Sunday. "@ISIS_Conquests If you open up a front against #Israel I'm sure your numbers will increase hugely. Also give you some legitimacy."

At the same time, IS may be growing cautious about drawing unwanted attention from Western intelligence and law-enforcement agencies even as it seeks new recruits.

"All Brothers and Sisters...Don't meet with IS members while you're living in the West...Move out of the West & than (sic) you get in touch with IS," @Dawla_Newsmedia wrote a day after U.S. law enforcement caught Shannon Maureen Conley, a 19-year-old woman from Denver, trying to leave the U.S. to join the IS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM

Anybody vaguely to the left of Attila the Hun is considered a security risk by them

"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks, the director general of MI5 has warned."

Not quite the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM

Alarmist nonsense. Extrapolation of statistics.

Thousands of UKIP, BNP and English Defense League see British Muslims as legitimate targets too, but why don't you point that out Keith?

I wonder...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:17 AM

"Alarmist nonsense" eh?

Said it before; shall probably say it again --

If you are not alarmed, that is because you are a

hidebound doctrinaire self-satisfied head-in-sand mind-made-up-so-no-facts-please

½·wit.



~M~

Oh shut-the-hell up, Michael. What's the bloody use!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:20 AM

Do "Thousands of UKIP, BNP and English Defense League see British Muslims as legitimate targets for attack too?" Musket?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM

According to A&E statistics, police crime figures etc, yes. Not just potentially, but hate crime reality.

I have no issue with accepting the dangers in radicalised disaffected young men. I lost a colleague in 7/7 and was at Kings Cross at the time myself. But alarmist crap misrepresented in the media just serves to divide the society some are trying to harmonise. You aren't going to solve domestic risk by wondering if the nice man in the corner shop has a nephew with a rucksack. The likes of Michael can sit there all day with the door locked shitting their trousers if that's what they want to do, but some of us see that as letting a few thugs win some weird victory or other.

As I said, Muslims are fighting Islamists, not opportunist politicians, not government agencies justifying their existence and hawking ideas for a bigger budget and influence.



Michael, shut up, you know I'm not talking to you. {snigger}


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

"According to A&E statistics, police crime figures etc, yes. Not just potentially, but hate crime reality. "

Not quite Musket - "Thousands of UKIP, BNP and English Defense League see British Muslims as legitimate targets too"

You then attempt to pass hate crime statistics off as an argument supporting your point of view.

2009 - there were a total of 52,028 recorded "hate crimes" in England Wales and Northern Ireland. The vast bulk of those were put down to "racial" attacks only 2,083 of them were incidents where the religion was the reason for the attack.

Why pick 2009? Iraq and Afghanistan both still running at full tilt


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:57 AM

" mind-made-up-so-no-facts-please "
You have produced no solid evidence of your own Mike, other than your distaste for Burkahs(you certainly have not responded to the possible reasons for Islamism, and as for a solution, you seem happy to leave that to the boys in uniform.
Everything else appears to be alarmist volcano-squatting
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

Err.. No. Passing off opinions on this subject just gets Keith and other childish fools screaming that you can't have opinions unless you can find "eminent" people on the internet to put it in words for you. I am capable of forming my own, which makes it difficult to engage with them.

My opinion is just that. The facts I gave merely reflect some of what helped me form my opinion. Considering the criteria for forms of hate attack, culture and religion are in different categories, as I found out in court when giving evidence on behalf of the local A&E (I was on call director at the time of the admissions after a hate attack on a house) so I do have a bit of an inkling of what I speak about, even though, unlike some here, I know my limitations on the subject.

2014. Iraq and Afghanistan in extra time period, awaiting the penalty shoot out.

I repeat, as it gets ignored.. The risk from home grown fanatics is there, present and proven. The extent is not tested, whilst the test of the exact opposite is not just proven, but filling prisons as we speak. Successive governments use risk of terror to curtail freedoms in society so it is best to have a slight amount of sceptical assessment rather than wade in with it presented as irrefutable facts as Keith does. He lacks the intelligence to look beyond what he googles, but I am somewhat disappointed in Teribus. His views are sometimes suspect but hitherto I thought his intellect was sound.

You know, your inference that I used such figures cynically says more about you than you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

"The vast bulk of those were put down to "racial" attacks only 2,083 of them were incidents where the religion was the reason for the attack."


The MAJORITY of which were against Jews, even though the proportion of the population the is Jewish is much smaller than the proportion that is Muslim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM

Speaking of opinions I think that having heard them repeated hundreds of times over and over ad nauseam we are, by now, quite familiar with everyone's opinion on these matters. By now it's just repeating the same shit which some of us don't even bother reading as that horse died a long time ago. I am much more interested in hearing the opinions of informed people. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM

"I am much more interested in hearing the opinions of informed people"
Aren't we all - nothing more tedious than a long stream of cut-'n-pastes and links to ultra-extremist web-sites.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

My posts are "alarmist", Jim, if that's the word you choose, because, I repeat, I am alarmed. If you're not, that's up to you, & goody for you and I hope it keeps fine for you; and your children & grandchildren... But this is not a very sanguine hope if you & all your well-meaning but oh·so·priggish lot insist on keeping your heads down there in the sand.

That's all. No good going on. Time will tell···

···but I shan't be there to see the outcome; nor any descendant of mine as I am childless.

Regards as ever

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Nice one Bruce. Making assumptions about the victims when the point was about the perpetrators.

Not everybody is as gullible as Michael, as gormless as Keith or as blinded as yourself. Some people are capable of reading a post for what it says, without silly twisting by those with an agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

You still have produced no facts for your alarmism - rather like the man on Oxford Street with his. 'THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH' placard.
Name-calling still doesn't hack it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM

Oh the catholics hate the protestants and the protestants hate the catholics and the hindus hate the moslems and everybody hates the jews but during national brotherhood week...

We used to be able to sing about this stuff.

Facts for alarmism include my father being killed by terrorists back in 1983 when they invented the carbomb in Beirut and nothing, I mean nothing, has been learned by Americans in the decades of anti-American terrorism since. To the point where many people still think 9/11 was the start of it all.

People should be alarmed, yes, but not just if they are Americans nowadays.

It, being the WWIII being waged since Nov. 1979 or earlier, is truly is turning into the barbarians versus the civilized and that is why it bothers me when people only mind the racism inherent in the wrong-way causation (that you have to be a moslem to be a radical islamist doesn't mean that if you are a moslem you have more than a minuscule chance of being a terrorist) and not the general fact that It's not just the moslems who should object to terrorism being linked to islam. But as I've said, that is a subject for the radical islamic thread, and not this one, which I am trying to limit to talking about the idea of a global moslem global mpire that isn't rooted in territory.

No homeland for the palistinians is unfair since the jews have taken theirs, I think. If there is going to be a Caliphate it should be rooted in a PLACE, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:26 PM

What you mean, "Facts"? The fact is that I am alarmed. If you mean "reasons", then say so. Any days papers will provide you with plenty of material to choose from. Start with those of 10 September 2001. Then 3 Nov 2004. Proceed to 8 July 2005. Perm any dates up to, & beyond, 23 May 2013...

Bit more there to work on, seems to me, that your Oxford St sandwichman had.

And what 'names' am I supposed to have called you -- other than such as ref your obtuse pigheadedness in refusing to see what is manifestly before you here?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM

Mrrzy,

The Palestinians have HAD a state since 1923 or so.

77% of the Mandate Palestine territory, in violation of the treaty creating the Mandate, was split off and made into the Arab Homeland of TransJordan, where NO Jews were allowed to settle or even own property. This was accepted by the Arabs. The British did this when there were riots between the Jews and Muslims.

The REAMAINING 32+ % of the original Mandate were to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the treaties.

In 1948, THAT (Jewish Homeland) land was divided, but the Arabs would not accept any division less than ALL for the Moslems, so they attacked the Jews. Jordan occupied the West bank, and removed all of the Jewish population that had been there previously.


The Arabs LOST, and have been demanding the unconditional surrender of Israel ever since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM

None of which is a reason to mistrust the Muslim community as a whole.
There are infinitely more attacks on Muslims than there are by Muslims, indicating that the Muslim population has far more to fear from the indigenous population than we have to fear them.
All this is a fair indication that we need to mend fences - your hatred and mistrust is doing exactly the opposite - you are not attempting to reason how the problem can be solved - you are the problem.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM

If they came to us and asked to negotiate, as you keep urging, to 'mend fences', & really mean it, everybody on here, at least, would I am sure be delighted. As would all rational, well-intentioned people.

Can you see it happening, Jim?

Honest, now...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 PM

The palistinians have had a state since prehistory, actually, but we (the rest of the world) don't recognize it as a place today... and yes, they lost, but they still seem to be there and not be israeli, so what are they? Stateless? Citizens of Jordan etc? If they could belong to a greater nation that wasn't jewish, wouldn't they want to? And if so, why aren't they hip to the idea of the Caliphate? Are they the wrong kind of moslem, Ali v. Omar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:42 PM

More than 92% of Jordanians are Sunni Muslims.


Jordan 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:05 PM

Mrrzy makes, it seems to me, a good point. I would in some respects go further. The establishment of the mandate was never by lawful authority, only the result of power. The relevant Arab peoples were freed from the oppression of the Ottoman Empire by its collapse. The lawful right of a fresh conqueror, terrified by Zionist terrorists, to impose - by agreement with other invading colonial powers - a new religious homeland in lands that had been Arab since time immemorial has never been clear to me.

Equivalently, the establishment of a caliphate would be an unacceptable imposition of a theocracy on many independent people. A murrain upon religion!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 12:44 AM

Bully! I mean that in the British, approving way, BTW, not the American bad way!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:09 AM

"The establishment of the mandate was never by lawful authority, only the result of power."
.,,.
How so, Richard? It was established at the end of WW1 by the League of Nations, after General Allenby had captured the territory from the Turks, prior to which it had for several hundred years been part of the Ottoman Empire. After that, even before the League came into being, the British were regarded as being responsible for it, whence the Balfour Declaration of 1917 in response to a request from Weizmann after he had expressed desire for his people, rather than himself, to be rewarded for his contributions to the Allied victories {see Chaim Weizmann in Wikipedia}. The staying on of the British after the League was dissolved led to all sorts of complications which need not be gone into here, leading up to the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948; when another narrative takes over as we all know ad nauseam from googol threads. Arab residents who had remained there were, & remain, full citizens of Israel. Try googling Arab [or "Palestinian"] Members Of Knesset, for instance.

Richard has to a considerable extent got hold of the wrong end of some stick it seems to me.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:35 AM

"Can you see it happening, Jim? "
I can see no other solution Mike - you certainly haven't come up with an alternative.
The present Government have said as much - the the Muslim population have to become involved in 'combating terrorism'
British Muslims have shown themselves ready to play a full part in British life - far readier than I would have thought given the circumstances and the history of racism shown towards them - if it can't happen, it will have been because of that history.
I won't ask for your alternative because you've already told us that it's not your job.
Fine - leave it to the boys in uniform - it's worked well enough in the past!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

Quite, Jim. You see no other solution; and this solution is unattainable, I fear.

If the Palestinians even wanted to negotiate, 'mend fences' as you put it, which I take leave to doubt, Hamas & ISIS & all such Arabist militant movements would step in & scare them off by threatening to kill their leaders if they took even a step towards the negotiation table. You know this is true.

I'm as unhappy about it all as you are; but you shouldn't be so scornful of me, really, I think, for saying I can't think of a solution to a problem to which I honestly do not believe there is one. I have quoted 12th Night in this particular before; make no apology for doing so again --

"Oh, Time, thou must untangle this, not I.
'Tis too hard a knot for me to untie"

And so say, unhappily, all of us!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:10 AM

I think you make my point for me, MtheGM. Nobody who purported to do so had proper right to give any part of Arab land to Zionists (or to anybody else). The only people who could do that would have been a properly established government of the Arab peoples.

What would you say if the UN decided that the Celts deserved a homeland in Surrey or Essex?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Of the two, Essex. Mrs Musket stands to inherit land in Surrey and we can't have property prices depressed, what?

Actually, that was a bit daft. Bridge makes a goo...   good po......poi..........poinnnnnnnn....

Oh bugger it.

Bridge makes a good point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:43 AM

Richard: My position is, as you can extrapolate from my posts in all threads on this topic for years, equivocal, one of complete ambivalence. But the only place to start is here. Do not, please, be like the yokel in the joke asked for directions and replying "Well, you can't start from here". It's the only place to start, without going into the ins-and-outs, moral or historical, of how we got here. Whether we should admire or denounce those early Russian-Jewish pioneers who just moved in and founded Kibbutz Daganiyah; whether Lord Balfour should have made his 1917 Declaration to reward Weizmann for help in winning WW1; what the British Mandate authorities should have done; whether negotiation was ever possible; what would have happened if the 1948 partition plan had been accepted by all sides ~~ all these are vain conjectures -- as vain as trying to re-establish Celtic rule over Essex.

There Israel is, like it or not. Its enemies are not going to accept its presence. It isn't going to go away.

Hence my reply to Jim a couple of posts back. Here we jolly well are, Nowhere to go from here. But we have got to go somewhere.

So -- somebody's move.

Whose?

And whither?

You tell me...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM

Someone could say that the Arab people have rather a lot of land apart from that tiny little sliver, and it is hardly worth another eighty years of killing just to try to get that silly little bit back from people with nowhere else to go anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM

Richard,

If the treaties ending WW I and the countries created are not valid, I think that you should look at how many nations you have just made illegal- Lebanon, Jordan (twice over!), Syria,Iraq,Much of eastern europe,etc.

If you insist that ONLY Israel is illegal, while the others are OK, then you fall under the EU definition of an Anti-Semite.

Mandate Palestine was as legal ( and not more so) as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq)

"The decisions of the San Remo conference confirmed the mandate allocations of the First Conference of London (February 1920). The San Remo Resolution adopted on 25 April 1920 incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It and Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations were the basic documents upon which the British Mandate for Palestine was constructed. Under the Balfour Declaration, the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. Britain received the mandate for Palestine and Iraq; France gained control of Syria, including present-day Lebanon. Under the agreement, Great Britain granted France 25 percent of the oil production from Mosul and France undertook to deliver oil to the Mediterranean. The draft peace agreement with Turkey signed at the conference became the basis for the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres. Germany was called upon to carry out its military and reparation obligations under the Versailles Treaty, and a resolution was adopted in favor of restoring trade with Russia.[12]

Recognizing that not all parts of the Middle East were ready for full independence, mandates were established for the government of three territories: Syria and Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Palestine. In each case, one of the Allied Powers was assigned to implement the mandate until the territories in question could "stand alone.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

Richard,

"lands that had been Arab since time immemorial"

You mean that there were not previous Jewish states in that region- that were destroyed " never by lawful authority, only the result of power. " ?


Or is it that you CHOOSE to look ONLY at the timescale you desire?

If 2200 years is too long, then so is 600.

If 47 years ( since 1967) is too short , then so is 66 (since 1948)

So either Israel has historical precedent, or it has right of conquest.




Which are you claiming is valid????


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:54 AM

No Bruce. The treaties to which you refer could not lawfully give land that had reverted to the Arabs on the fall of the Ottoman Empire to anyone else.

19-8 (or 20) to now is a very big difference to the time scale from when you assert that the Jews left the relevant area. You say 2200 years. The Ottoman Empire was established in about 1300 - about 700 years back from now, 600 from then.

So the Zionists did not control what is now Israel (under any view of the borders) for 1500 years. That negates any valid claim they had to the area.

Mither - we have to stop meeting like this!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:02 AM

So you agree that in 3467 Arabs will lose all rights any part of the West Bank?


All Israel has to do is wait it out...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM

"The treaties to which you refer could not lawfully give land that had reverted to the Arabs on the fall of the Ottoman Empire to anyone else.
"

So the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan are no more valid than Israel is.

All set up by the Mandate Powers.


Non-democratic governments at the time they were formed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM

Being displaced doesn't remove rights as indigenous people NO MATTER HOW LONG THEY ARE DISPLACED FOR. If people do not lose their indigenous status through being displaced, and people do not subsume indigenous status through conquering indigenous people and "replacing them," then the Arabs are not indigenous to the ancestral lands of the Jewish people. Jews have been there for three thousand years and everything that makes them Jews began there."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:30 AM

"You see no other solution; and this solution is unattainable, I fear. "
Then there are only the options I have mentioned - send them all back or gas them all.
I was referring to how any problems arising from returning Jihadists to Britain should be dealt with.
Trying to enlist the general Muslim population has never been tried, in spite of the goodwill that has always been forthcoming.
It seems to me that those who are not prepared to try it, or not prepared to come up with their own suggestions are the problem, not them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:54 AM

"Then there are only the options I have mentioned - send them all back or gas them all."

.,,.
But you are well aware that these are not 'options' at all, aren't you, Jim? As Penelope Keith as Margot used to say innocently in The Good Life: "You're making fun, aren't you?"

In fact, tho, you are just being deliberately provocative. It's actually a dishonest bit of rhetoric, Jim. I assert that we have a problem without an evident solution; so you can imply that I have suggested your two putative non-'options' when I have not even implied either in any manner whatever.

You may try to deny it, to yourself as well as to us; but that is a typical Jim Carroll mode of argument; and if you hadn't realised that before, realise it now, for crying out loud. And then realise you will really have to do better. All of a piece with your notorious 'here to steal our jobs' accusation, which you had to climb down from with some fatuous piece of evasion about its being a 'rhetorical assertion attained by following the impetus of the argument", or some such silliness.
.,,.

"Trying to enlist the general Muslim population has never been tried, in spite of the goodwill that has always been forthcoming"

A dubious assertion, I think. Look at the part played in our national life by many prominent Muslims, who have come forward with goodwill, and been embraced by the nation as a whole --

from Wikipedia

"Muslims are playing an increasingly prominent role in political life.[67] There are currently eight Muslim MPs[68] and twelve Muslim Peers (there have historically been about fourteen, starting with Lord Stanley, a peer that lived in the 19th century). The majority of British Muslims vote for the Labour Party,[69] however there are some high profile Conservative Muslims, including Minister for Faith and Communities and former Co-Chairman of the Conservative Party Sayeeda Warsi and Economic Secretary to the Treasury Sajid Javid,[70] described by The Guardian as a 'rising star' in the Tory party.[71] The Guardian stated that "The treasury minister is highly regarded on the right and would be the Tories' first Muslim leader."
British Muslims are well represented in various media positions across different organisations. Notable examples include Mehdi Hasan, the political editor of the UK version of The Huffington Post[73] and the presenter of Al Jazeera English shows The Café and Head to Head,[74] Mishal Husain, a British news presenter for the BBC, currently appearing on BBC World News and BBC Weekend News, Rageh Omaar, special correspondent with ITV and formerly Senior Foreign Correspondent with the BBC and a reporter/presenter for Al Jazeera English,[75] and Faisal Islam, economics editor and correspondent for Channel 4 News'.'[76]
There are several Islamic television channels operating in the UK, including Muslim Television Ahmadiyya International (MTA International),[77][78] Ummah Channel,[79] and Ahlebait TV."


Does all this suggest the universal failure you suggest, Jim, to make any accommodation with that section of our demographic? If others prefer to live in enclaves in Bradford, Southall, Leicester, or wherever, then what are you yourself doing about trying to bring them forward into the mainstream as the ones named above have done?

Just asking --

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

Perhaps after

"If others prefer to live in enclaves in Bradford, Southall, Leicester,"

I should insert

"or set out to reject with violence our institutions and lifestyle, and instead convert their energies into fighting and threatening us, murdering our citizens, &c, as a small but vocal and disproportionately effective minority have done, and are still doing from their present jihadi strongholds in Syria"

and then resume from

"then what are you yourself doing about trying to bring them forward into the mainstream as the ones named above have done?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM

Bruce: There will come a time at which continued occupation gives legitimacy, yes. It isn't yet. For example the Irish were ruled by the English for several hundred years but on this forum are widely thought to have been in the right in ejecting the UK from the Republic of Ireland. Conversely, we would I think widely accept the succession to UK governance that was rooted in the Norman Conquest (a vile piece of genocide - about 94% of the then English upper classes (and nearly so) were exterminated). A Latin claim to rule over what was the Roman Empire would be thought laughable.

Bobad - yes they do. See above. You want the Welsh in Essex? If there is no cutoff date (or at least soft floor) then the takeover by Israel of Canaan (if the Bible is right about that) makes the Israelites the invaders of an earlier pan-Semitic population. The diaspora represented an abandonment of rights to dominate the area, quite long enough ago to be valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

And this all without prejudice to my stated and acknowledged alarm as to the future, stemming from your (individually & as a type) complacent refusal to take account of the effect and influence liable to be achieved by that minority I adduce, and trying to discount it as an ineffectual non-threat. Just ask the widows Van Gogh and Rigby how ineffectual and worthy of ignoring and discounting this minority is.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

"If there is no cutoff date..."

Pray tell us what is this "Cutoff date"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

Richard,

If the treaties ending WW I and the countries created are not valid, I think that you should look at how many nations you have just made illegal- Lebanon, Jordan (twice over!), Syria,Iraq,Much of eastern europe,etc.

If you insist that ONLY Israel is illegal, while the others are OK, then you fall under the EU definition of an Anti-Semite.

Mandate Palestine was as legal ( and not more so) as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq)

"The decisions of the San Remo conference confirmed the mandate allocations of the First Conference of London (February 1920). The San Remo Resolution adopted on 25 April 1920 incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It and Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations were the basic documents upon which the British Mandate for Palestine was constructed. Under the Balfour Declaration, the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. Britain received the mandate for Palestine and Iraq; France gained control of Syria, including present-day Lebanon. Under the agreement, Great Britain granted France 25 percent of the oil production from Mosul and France undertook to deliver oil to the Mediterranean. The draft peace agreement with Turkey signed at the conference became the basis for the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres. Germany was called upon to carry out its military and reparation obligations under the Versailles Treaty, and a resolution was adopted in favor of restoring trade with Russia.[12]

Recognizing that not all parts of the Middle East were ready for full independence, mandates were established for the government of three territories: Syria and Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Palestine. In each case, one of the Allied Powers was assigned to implement the mandate until the territories in question could "stand alone.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:46 PM

Did you not read my earlier answer, Brucie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM

And my reply was:




"The treaties to which you refer could not lawfully give land that had reverted to the Arabs on the fall of the Ottoman Empire to anyone else.
"

So the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan are no more valid than Israel is.

All set up by the Mandate Powers.


Non-democratic governments at the time they were formed."




Did you not read my earlier answer, Dickie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

No interest in Ibrahim's caliphate actions, financing and successes?

All this stuff about treaties belongs in the threads on that subject.

Iran is sending more fighter jets to the Iraq government, to fight the caliphate. Iran also offered help to Lebanon to fight the threat.

ISIS has taken over six Syrian oil fields (one with 75,000 bbl/day capacity) and a pumping station.

Threatening to Iraq and its Shias is the fact that some Syrian Sunnis are turning to ISIS.

ISIS has taken large areas in Syria and Iraq, but the BBC asks, whether they can rule what they have taken.
The tribes of the region are occupied with the Syrian civil war, so cannot be effective against ISIS.

ISIS is well-armed, well-funded, and intolerant. No real opposition in the lands they have taken.

The Saudi government, Sunni, is not funding ISIS, but they cannot block individual donations.

ISIS levels about $8 million/month on local businesses. It has the funds of the banks in conquered Mosul.

ISIS will continue to control large areas for some time to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:23 PM

It seems people around here are not too interested in ISIS because there are no Jews involved...........yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

The Jews in Iraq (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים בָּבְלִים, Babylonian Jews, Yehudim Bavlim, Arabic: يهود العراق‎ Yahūd al-ʿIrāq) is documented from the time of the Babylonian captivity c. 586 BC. Iraqi Jews constitute one of the world's oldest and most historically significant Jewish communities.

The Jewish community of Babylon included Ezra the scribe, whose return to Judea in the late 6th century BC is associated with significant changes in Jewish ritual observance and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Talmud was compiled in Babylonia, identified with modern Iraq.[2]

From the Babylonian period to the rise of the Islamic caliphate, the Jewish community of Babylon thrived as the center of Jewish learning. The Mongol invasion and Islamic discrimination in the Middle Ages led to its decline.[3] Under the Ottoman Empire, the Jews of Iraq fared better. The community established modern schools in the second-half of the 19th century.[4]

In the 20th century, Iraqi Jews played an important role in the early days of Iraq's independence. Between 1950-52, 120,000-130,000 of the Iraqi Jewish community (around 75%) were transported to Israel in Operation Ezra and Nehemiah.[5]
…..


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM

more on Iraqi Jews

In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades (one of the most important anti-Zionist Jewish businessmen in the country) was arrested and executed for allegedly selling goods to Israel, shocking the community (Tripp, 123). Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of anti-semitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty. 1948, the year of Israel's independence was a rough year for the Jews of Iraq:

In July 1948, the government passed a law making all Zionist activity punishable by execution, with a minimum sentence of seven years imprisonment,
On August 28, 1948, Jews were forbidden to engage in banking or foreign currency transactions,
In September 1948, Jews were dismissed from the railways, the post office, the telegraph department and the Finance Ministry on the ground that they were suspected of "sabotage and treason,"
On October 8, 1948, the issuance of export and import licenses to Jewish merchants was forbidden,
On October 19, 1948, the discharge of all Jewish officials and workers from all governmental departments was ordered,
In October, the Egyptian paper, El-Ahram, estimated that as a result of arrests, trials and sequestation of property, the Iraqi treasury collected some 20 million dinars or the equivalent of 80 million U.S. dollars,
On December 2, 1948, the Iraq government suggested to oil companies operating in Iraq, that no Jewish employees be accepted.[16]
"With very few exceptions, only Jews wore watches. On spotting one that looked expensive, a policeman had approached the owner as if to ask the hour. Once assured the man was Jewish, he relieved him of the timepiece and took him into custody. The watch, he told the judge, contained a tiny wireless; he'd caught the Jew, he claimed, sending military secrets to the Zionists in Palestine. Without examining the "evidence" or asking any questions, the judge pronounced his sentence. The "traitor" went to prison, the watch to the policeman as reward." (Haddad, p. 176).[17]

In 19 February 1949 , Nuri al-Said acknowledged the bad treatment that the Jews had been victims of in Iraq during the recent months. He warned that unless Israel would behave itself, events might take place concerning the Iraqi Jews.[18]

The great emigration to Israel[edit]
By 1949, the Iraqi Zionist underground had become well-established (despite many arrests), and they were smuggling Iraqi Jews out of the country illegally at a rate of 1,000 a month.[19] Hoping to stem the flow of assets from the country, in March 1950 Iraq passed a law of one year duration allowing Jews to emigrate on condition of relinquishing their Iraqi citizenship. They were motivated, according to Ian Black, by "economic considerations, chief of which was that almost all the property of departing Jews reverted to the state treasury" and also that "Jews were seen as a restive and potentially troublesome minority that the country was best rid of." (p. 91) Israel was initially reluctant to absorb so many immigrants, (Hillel, 1987) but eventually mounted an airlift in March 1951 called "Operation Ezra and Nehemiah" to bring as many of the Iraqi Jews as possible to Israel, and sent agents to Iraq to urge the Jews to register for immigration as soon as possible. Between 1948 and 1951 121,633 Jews left the country, leaving 15,000 behind.[20]

From the start of the emigration law in March 1950 until the end of the year, 60,000 Jews registered to leave Iraq. In addition to continuing arrests and the dismissal of Jews from their jobs, this exodus was encouraged by a series of bombings starting in April 1950 that resulted in a number of injuries and a few deaths. Two months before the expiration of the law, by which time about 85,000 Jews had registered, another bomb at the Masuda Shemtov synagogue killed 3 or 5 Jews and injured many others. The law expired in March 1951 but was later extended after the Iraqi government froze the assets of departing Jews, including those who had already left. During the next few months, all but a few thousand of the remaining Jews registered for emigration, spurred on by a sequence of further bombings that caused few casualties but had great psychological impact. In Operation Ezra and Nehemiah, some 120,000 Jews were airlifted to Israel via Iran and Cyprus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:37 PM

The history of the Jews of Iraq began, in fact, with the exile of the Jews of Palestine by the Assyrians and, later, the Babylonians. The deportation of Palestinian Jewry to Babylon occurred in three waves:
1.        The Exile of Samaria (721 B.C.E.), in which ten Hebrew tribes were exiled by the Assyrians.
2.        The Exile of Jehoiachin (597 B.C.E.), in which ten thousand inhabitants of Jerusalem were brought to Babylonia by Nebuchadnezzar.
3.        The Exile of Zidqiah (586 B.C.E.), which marked the end of the Kingdom of Judah, the ruin of Jerusalem and the destruction of King Solomon's first temple. About forty thousand Jews were exiled by the Babylonians during that time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:44 PM

And what of the "Caliphate of Ibrahim?????

Old history can be found in books and on the net.

Were the Neanderthals the first "tribe" in Iraq's current area?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

"A dubious assertion"
Tell that to the Muslims who live in fear of having ptrol poured through their letter boxes, or have to board up their windows, or accompany their children to school for fear of them being attacked....
Or those whose sons fall victim of the recognised institutional racism in the police force.
None of those Muslims you mentioned as being afforded privileges in Britain would com anywhere near to being affected by any of this - these are not the people who need to be won over.
I didn't respond to you when you replied to my question of how many Muslims you had met by telling me of those you knew at Uni
Rather like the judge at the Lady Chatterly trial asking the jury if they would be happy if their servants read the book.
We appear to live in different world Mike.
"Van Gogh and Rigby how ineffectual and worthy of ignoring and discounting this minority is."
How about you asking the family of Bijan Ebrahimi (who?) beaten and burned to death for trying to stop white yobs from vandalising his home - or the many thousands of Muslims who live in fear for their safety, their property, even their lives.
If you have no answer and are nor even to consider suggestions, you are little more than a rabble-rouser whose only contribution is to gve support to the thugs
Jim Carroll

http://www.voanews.com/content/anti-muslim-attacks-nearly-double-in-britain/1832260.html

MUSLIM WOMEN IN BRITAIN


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

Now the Caliphate will drive out ( or kill) the Christians and then the remaining Islamic groups that do not agree with them.

And they are not even the ones who lived in Iraq- Most supporters of the Caliphate seem to be from Syria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

And IF 1950 is "ancient History" then 1967 is not much better- So why the demands to roll back the borders of Israel to 1967, to take advantage of the military conquests of the Arab League, when the military conquests of Israel are considered illegal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

O,

From the opening post:
"does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?"

Thus the discussion of the PRESENT Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan ( now Jordan),
created in violation of the Mandate by Great Britain

"On 21 March 1921, the Foreign and Colonial office legal advisers decided to introduce Article 25 into the Mandatory Palestine, which brought Transjordan under the mandate and stated that in that territory, Britain could 'postpone or withhold' those articles of the Mandate concerning a Jewish national home. It was approved by Curzon on 31 March 1921, and the revised final draft of the mandate (including Transjordan) was forwarded to the League of Nations on 22 July 1922.[14][15] In August 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved by the League on 12 August.

Abdullah established his government on 11 April 1921.[16] Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine, and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan.[17] Technically they remained one mandate, but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. In May 1923 Transjordan was granted a degree of independence with Abdullah as ruler and St John Philby as chief representative.[18]"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

Jim,

Your post belongs in the other thread…

"If you have no answer and are nor even to consider suggestions, you are little more than a rabble-rouser whose only contribution is to gve support to the thugs
"

So please tell us your answer, since you reject everyone else's suggestions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:13 PM

He's already given us his answer, Bruce; "we must negotiate, 'mend fences'" ···

and an excellent answer it is too; if only they would. But he has not answered my point, that they wouldn't for fear of what Hamas or any of such would do to them if they suspected they even thought of it.

So then I am deficient, and a mischievous "rabble-rouser" for not thinking he is talking much sense. Precisely which 'thugs' I am giving support to, because I confess myself unable to suggest solutions to insoluble problems, & remain alarmed at the foreseeable consequences of the complacent head-burying shrugging off of the problem of militant islamism in our midst by such as him, he doesn't specify.

I am no more responsible by my thinking for deplorable attacks on individual muslims than he is for the killing of Mr Rigby -- much less, in fact, I would submit. But just try to get that idea into J Carroll's permanently locked up intellect.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

"The palistinians (sic) have had a state since prehistory, ..."

Mrrzy, that is an over broad reading of history (or prehistory), and has no basis in normative scholarship. I do not claim to be an expert of the ANE, but it was my area of study for my B.A. in History, and I have been an interested layman for over fifty years since. I know that to most folks, here, history of the area has no meaning. I personally prefer the term Levant, a term not used quite so much now, to describe the area from NE Sinai along the Mediterranean Coast to SE Anatolia (Turkey) and eastward into what is now parts of Jordan and Syria. The reason for my preference is that "Levant" carries no emotional religious, ethnic nor racial baggage in discussing the history of that place.

Palestine is the English form of the Latin word for Philistines, an arch foe of Israelites in the pre-Monarchic period and the early kingdom period of Israel from the 10th century BCE (BC). Philistines were neither Arab peoples or Semitic peoples; they came from the Mediterranean islands, most notably Crete, Cyprus and Sardinia, and were kin to the later Greeks.

Arabs (that is folks from the Arabian peninsula, were not a major player in the area, except for traders, until the Roman period in the Levant (2nd century BCE. And, of course, there was no Muslim presence until the mid-7th century CE(AD), which coincides with a great Arab influx into the Levant, even until modern times.

If you, Mrrzy (or anyone) are truly interested in the History, PM me. If I get a few requests I will put a small reading list together for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:45 PM

Those who ignore history are doomed to be held in esteem by zealots who don't give a damn.

Those who know history are mostly doomed to be ignored by everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM

"So the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan are no more valid than Israel is." "All set up by the Mandate Powers." beardedbruce @8:09 AM today.

More to this--
The Mandates set by the League of Nations in the Middle East were
Iraq - British
Palestine - British
Syria - French
Lebanon - French

The French mandates evolved into independent countries in 1946.
Iraq, in which the Hashemi family of Arabia was installed as rulers gained full independence in 1932.

Which brings us back to Palestine. The British made promises to two groups for independent states, Jews and Arabs, fore homelands in Palestine. In 1923 the area of Palestine east of the Jordan River was split off as the Arab homeland. BUT the Brits did not choose a local Arab as ruler. The Brits brought into Transjordan a non Palestinian from Iraq, another branch of the Hashemis (which had expected to rule Iraq) as a consolation for British perfidy. Transjordan (as Jordan) became fully independent in 1946.

Perhaps because there was no Palestinian leadership allowed in the country consisting of Palestinian population, and because of anti-Jewish sentiment and pogroms in Palestine from the 1920s to the 1940s, the Palestinians recognize Jordan as the Palestinian homeland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:10 AM

"and an excellent answer it is too; if only they would. But he has not answered my point, that they wouldn't for fear of what Hamas or any of such would do to them if they suspected they even thought of it."
If you are talking about Israel/Palestine - ho many peace conferences have there been so far, and how many times has Israel been the direct cause of sabotaging those attempts at peace?
Even Israel's strongest ally, the United States, declared that she Israel's behaviour was the direct cause of scuppering the last on - not Hamas.
Israel has no interest in any peace that doesn't involve her being allowed to expand, to keep what she has won by military force and to allow her to continue her aim of an Apartheid state.
The idea that Hamas "holds a knife at the throat" of the Palestinian people is as much of a dishonest cop-out as is the idea that mending fences with the Muslim population in Britain is not possible because of a similar threat by extremists here.
The Islamist bogey-man is an argument for vilifying all Muslims, no more - an excuse for doing nothing.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

Thank you, John.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:57 AM

That is interesting John, but surely the more important question is who occupied the lands before the Ottoman Empire. It seems to me that the history is very relevant. You for the first time suggest that the population of the Levant (a useful naming suggestion) was then not Arabian but "Philistine" - that is to say from other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean. At least I think that that is your thesis. I should like to see more support for that, and perhaps it turns at least in part on who is "an Arab".

However, if they were "Philistine" (which you equate to "Palestinian") then upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Philistines became, by reversion, those entitled to the Levant.

I progress from there to say that the difference between Israel and the other states to which BB refers is that Israel was given to invaders who had not been there for thousands of years, whereas although the rulership of other states may have been from outsiders the people there were those to whom reversion (under government) occurred.

I do note however that BB offers some factual support for the view that the proposers of what has become Israel were terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 09:13 AM

an excuse for doing nothing.
Jim Carroll"

.,.,

All v well being selfrighteous, Jim. But what is to be done? See bobad's post of just a few minutes back on the Small Hope thread: Hamas will not negotiate, and will not allow anyone else to either. Do you think our internal Islamists here will allow any such accommodations either? & if you think that's just a 'bogeyman', then I ask again, what did Mr Rigby die of -- nasty attack of hay·fever, wasn't it?

♫ ···
Oh what's the use
Why do I bother?
Think I'll just go back
To bed ··· ♫♫


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM

"However, if they were "Philistine" (which you equate to "Palestinian") then upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Philistines became, by reversion, those entitled to the Levant.


The Philistines have been gone for many centuries. Mostly went to Egypt I understand.

The people called palestinians are just garden variety Arabs with no historical claim to the area. Many countries sent Arab people into the area when the Zionist movement was observed. They were supposed to block the Jews, perhaps terrorize them.

Mark Twain visited the area in the late 1900s and found it nearly empty.

There are now far too many Arabs to fit back on the Arabian Peninsula. In fact, The Arab World is now composed of 20 Arab-speaking countries, not including Israel, which they also claim.

As used by Balfour, Palestine = Canaan = Israel = Holy Lands. Yes, a Jewish Homeland which is what The Mandate was supposed to re-estalblish.

Present use of palestinian is a public relations ploy used by Yarir Arafat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"an excuse for doing nothing."
As I said - an excuse for doing nothing - go back to bed.
Can't find anything from Bobad - but then again, I can get most of whet he has to say direct from the horses mouth - Muslim Watch, White Supremist or Gatestone.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM

'During the period of the Mandate, it was the Jewish population that was known as "Palestinians" including those who served in the British Army in World War II.

The current myth is that these Arabs were long established in Palestine, until the Jews came and "displaced" them. The fact is, that recent Arab immigration into Palestine "displaced" the Jews. That the massive increase in Arab population was very recent is attested by the ruling of the United Nations: That any Arab who had lived in Palestine for two years and then left in 1948 qualifies as a "Palestinian refugees". After the 1967 war this was changed to "Israeli refugees.

What was to become of "Palestine" after the Mandate? This question was taken up by various British and international commissions and other bodies, culminating with the United Nations in 1947. By 1948, the Arabs had still not yet discovered their ancient nation of Falastin. When they were offered half of Palestine west of the Jordan River for a state, the offer was violently rejected. Six Arab states launched a war of annihilation against the nascent State of Israel. Their purpose was not to establish an independent Falastin. Their aim was to partition western Palestine amongst themselves.

They did not succeed in killing Israel, but Trans-Jordan succeeded in taking Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and East Jerusalem, killing or driving out all the Jews who had lived in those places, and banning Jews of all nations from Jewish holy places. Egypt succeeded in taking the Gaza Strip. These two Arab states held these lands until 1967. Then they launched another war of annihilation against Israel, and in consequence lost the lands they had taken by war in 1948. During those 19 years, 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt never offered to surrendar those lands to make up an independent state of Falastin. The "Palestinians" never sought it. Nobody in the world ever suggested it,much less demanded it.
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM

"As I said - an excuse for doing nothing - go back to bed."
.,,.

OK Jim.

Goo'night.

Oh, BTW ~~ still haven't answered my question, have you...

Like -- what are YOU going to DO?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Correction to my post yesterday
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM

"Perhaps because there was no Palestinian leadership allowed in the country consisting of Palestinian population, and because of anti-Jewish sentiment and pogroms in Palestine from the 1920s to the 1940s, the Palestinians recognize Jordan as the Palestinian homeland."

The last clause should have read, "...the Palestinians DO NOT recognize Jordan as a Palestinian homeland."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM

Richard Bridge—Thank you for your response. I'm sorry to have to use your full post to frame my answers to you in brackets [-], but I know not HTML to colorize or italicize what I wanted to say...and I didn't want to use all CAPS, lest you think I'm yelling at you. It is difficult to present thousands of years of history into a few paragraphs, so I'm happy to clarify my post for you. Richard, I make you the same offer I made Mrrzy, PM me and I will send you a brief reading list, but everything I've written can be easily searched on the web.

                                                                   ======================
That is interesting John, but surely the more important question is who occupied the lands before the Ottoman Empire. It seems to me that the history is very relevant. You for the first time suggest that the population of the Levant (a useful naming suggestion) [maybe on this thread, but over the years I have used 'Levant' on occasion on the 'Cat] was then not Arabian but "Philistine" - that is to say from other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean. [The Philistines did not control the Levant, only a small portion in the southwest around Gaza-five cities] At least I think that that is your thesis. I should like to see more support for that, and perhaps it turns at least in part on who is "an Arab".

However, if they were "Philistine" (which you equate to "Palestinian") [This is not my equation, it is the accepted etymology of the word.] then upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Philistines became, by reversion, those entitled to the Levant. [The irony of the Roman renaming the area for the Jews most feared enemy, is that they had disappeared as an entity centuries before.]

I progress from there to say that the difference between Israel and the other states to which BB refers is that Israel was given to invaders who had not been there for thousands of years [this is incorrect. Jews, always were a portion of the population of the Levant, although not in control of any of it after the failure of the Bar Khochba revolt in the 2nd century CE] whereas although the rulership of other states may have been from outsiders the people there were those to whom reversion (under government) occurred. [I'm sorry, I don't understand what your conclusion, here, is.]

I do note however that BB offers some factual support for the view that the proposers of what has become Israel were terrorists. [It is true that the Romans considered Judeans to be what we call terrorists, the historic term is the Zealots. In modern times the British considered some Jews--both Palestinian born and immigrants—who were denied their promised portion of Palestine for a homeland after the Palestinians had received theirs].


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

"Like -- what are YOU going to DO?"
As you say - it's somebody elses job to do things - I have mede my suggestions - you have yet to do so.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM

Yes, Jim. I am really not trying to be quarrelsome, or merely score points, this time. But you honestly have not answered [what I consider to be] my unanswerable objections to your proposed solution; that it would be, literally, a non-starter, because the main necessary participants would not come to the negotiating table under any consideration whatever: as you will see if you will just read that bobad post on the other "Small Hopes" thread that I have already ref'd you to; and which can't be as difficult for you to find as you claimed, as it is immediately adjacent to one of yours. In fact, I hope he won't mind, but I copy it here for you to consider; in, I repeat, a spirit of opposition to your views, but I hope not aggressively:

"I spent hours yesterday morning and afternoon trying to convince my main Hamas contact to speak to his leaders to call for an immediately unconditional 24 hour ceasefire in order to prevent the escalation. My message made it all the way up to Khaled Mashal. I wanted to try to prevent the inevitable death of innocent people and the destruction that this war would cause.
The Hamas leadership decided to ignore the possibility of the ceasefire and challenged Israel to "bring it on". These irresponsible leaders are criminals to their own people. I can honestly say that Netanyahu did not want to escalate this war. It is so unfortunate that these Hamas leaders, some sitting in hotel abroad and others safely hiding underground in Gaza put the innocent people of Gaza in the direct line of fire. This is criminal.
Force alone will never be a proper response to the problems of human suffering. Israel had to respond with force, I am sorry to say, but Israel must also present a plan for addressing the real and urgent human needs of the 1.7 million people in Gaza, or else this ongoing war never end." ... Gershon Baskin


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

"Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire" ~~~~~

Of all the horrid, hideous notes of woe,
Sadder than owl-songs or the midnight blast;
    Is that portentous phrase,

          "I told you so."

    Byron - Don Juan (canto XIV, st. 50)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:07 AM

Then too, Israel at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire.

Got a poem for that, ~M~?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM

Like with Tango, It normally takes two to cease-fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:58 AM

"unanswerable objections "
Can I make something clear Mike - it really shouldn't be necessary.
My reference to mending fences has been throughout, the problems raised by Muslim fighters returning to Britain - it is why I have emphasised the docile and to some degree co-operative position of British Muslims.
The Middle East is a different matter, and is a case of seeking an international solution.
I feel that the U.S. has to drop its use of the veto on behalf of Israel, (half-way there at present anyway) and a world-wide boycott of Israel should be called for to force her to take peace talks seriously.
Whatever the feelings of the Palestinian leadership and Hamas towards Israel, they are in no position to present a serious military threat.
It can be validly claimed that the rocket attacks are a direct response to expansionism, the blockage and the history of atrocities carried out against the Palestinian people.
Israel is a sophisticated, well armed (to the point of nuclear capability) and wealthy State - Palestine is an extremely impoverished Third World one - David and Goliath was a Biblical fairy tale, nothing more.
Without world intervention, led by the U.N., both of us will live to see an encore of the Holocaust.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

The confirmation comes hours after Ynetnews reported that Egypt and another Arab nation, most probably Qatar, were working on an initial draft of a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, which was presented to both sides Saturday.

Hamas had refused to discuss the terms of the cease-fire, while Israel has expressed its willingness to meet to negotiate the details of the deal.

Egypt confirms push to end Israel-Hamas fighting


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

The name Palestine was adopted by the Moslem residents of the Holy Land and used for their advantage. "Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel... " (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977).


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM

Jee, PeeDee, and here I thought the name "Palestine" dated back at least to before the Crusades...... come to think of it, its mentioned in Genesis, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM

The dispute surrounding the name Palestine has been part of Israel's denying the Palestinian's right continue to occupy the area they have done for millenia - it is immaterial one way or the other.
It's official use to identifya part of the Arab lands dates back at least to the 7th century - in anybody's book, thirteen centuries is long enough to give the right of a claim to live in the area, except the Israelis, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

"The name Palestine is given to the region spreading from eastern Mediterranean coast to the Jordan Valley to the area covering Galilee Lake in the north and southern Negev Desert. The origin of this word lies in "Plesheth". This is a name appearing frequently in the Bible and have started being known as "Philistine" in English. The world root of "Plesheth" lies in the word "palah" was is a term used generally in the sense of migratory, referring to the Palestinian's conquest of the coast of Mediterranean. These people were mostly originates of Asia Minor and Greece and gradually became a part of the Arab world".


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate what means Palestine?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:25 PM

"The dispute surrounding the name Palestine has been part of Israel's denying the Palestinian's right continue to occupy the area [Wrong]they have done for millenia - it is immaterial one way or the other."
"It's official use to identifya part of the Arab lands dates back at least to the 7th century [Further back]- in anybody's book, thirteen centuries is long enough to give the right of a claim to live in the area, except the Israelis, it would appear.[Opinion not factual]" [-] = mine.
Jim Carroll
>
>
Palestine is the term given to the whole area by the Romans after quelling two Jewish attempts to remove Roman control of Judea (75CE and 135CE). They chose that name, as a form of irony, to de-Judaiize the area politically, in naming it for the main Israelite/Judean enemy, the Philistines--who had, incidentally disappeared as a polity centuries before.

The Philistines had never controlled the area as a whole. At their peak their control was mainly five cities in the southwest of what is now Israel, abutting Sinai Peninsula, one of which was Gaza. The Philistines were not Arab, nor were they Semites. They came from Mediterranean islands, such as Cypress and Sardinia.

After 135, some Jewish presence throughout Palestine. In the early 7th century CE Palestine was part of the Persian Sassinid empire. Jews were allowed local autonomy for about ten years, until the Arab Muslim conquest of Palestine. And there still continued to be a Jewish population there, no matter who controlled the area. And such there was forever into the 20th century.

Following WWI, the victors, the League of Nations, divided up the Middle East in to what eventually became Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan (split off from the original Palestine Mandate). The remainder of the Palestine Mandate remained in limbo from 1923 on owing to the fecklessness of the British Government. From 1923 Arabs (Muslim and Christian), and Jews (native born or immigrants) considered themselves Palestinean (or at least acknowledging they lived in Mandated Palestine). Area Jews ceased considering themselves Palestinian with the declaration of the State of Israel.
>
>
Jim, Greg F. or whomever: do not ask for sources; I am not writing a term paper, nor am I quoting a source directly. You guys do not usually provide sources either for you posts. You can get sources,as I did, simply by googling or yahooing, or searching your favorite search engine. You can get documents and books from libraries as I have. You can get sources on both sides, as I have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 05:06 PM

Thanks John, I appreciate your effort at elucidating the complex history of that part of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but in going through some of the earlier posts, this occurred to me:

I've heard these three friends several times on KUOW-FM, my local NPR affiliate. Very interesting—and friendly—discussions.

http://interfaithamigos.com/About_Us.html.

A chance to hear them in action HERE.

Rather than taking militant religious types of various flavors out and shooting the lot, how about lining them up and giving them all a hearty dope-slap?

Nah. Probably wouldn't do it. Okay, back to reading more of this thread. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:26 AM

"complex history of that part of the world"
Complex, disputed - and totally immaterial.
Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Arabs have occupied the area they are no being told they have no claim to for millenia.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

The story of the Caliphate in Syria-Iraq has been lost in all the rehash of Palestine (several threads), but a bit of news today.
There are divisions in the Sunni groups from which ISIS is soliciting support.
Taliban in both Pakistan and Afghanistan have refused to comment on the caliphate, support is not favored by all fractions.

Naqshbandi leader Al-Douri (head of a group of Sunni loyalists to Saddam Hussain's Baath Party)) has released an audiotape praising ISIS.

Iraqi UN envoy Miadenov says Iraq needs a "firm hand" (the Parliament dissolved in disarray and the country has no overall governance) but it is not known who can lead strongly). The Sunni political group is trying to elect a parliamentary speaker in hopes of a return to power.

The Kurds announced that they now control two more large oilfields, and are fighting ISIS at their "border."

Above in part from Assyrian International News Agency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

"Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep."
Sarcasm becomes you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

"Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep."

So I guess you were wrong in thinking that as you are in so many other things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

Gee, I don't think so, Boo - since I got that impression of The Muslim Menace from you, Keith & BB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:20 PM

Keep trying Greg - you may eventually figure it out:

Islam vs. Islamists


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM

"versus"
I have just consulted five (5) dictionaries, and as I expected each notes the use versus as a comparison or contrast. It seems bobad's use was quite correct.

Do you feel a bit like what you called him, now? Of course you don't, Musket; you'd rather call him names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM

I love it when a plan comes together.

Really, ads hominem ill become anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM

John, that's the title of the documentary I linked to. I fear Mr.Musket is losing it as has been evident for some time now. Poor chap, I feel for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

""Ask yourself:  Does this appearance (of events) concern the things that are within my own control or those that are not?  If it concerns anything outside your control, train yourself not to worry about it.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

Last quote, Epitetus


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

Oops, Epictetus


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM

I fear Ian may have the drink taken?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

Jim,

Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia.

But then, we know that YOU do not consider Jews to be human, or to have the rights you are demanding for Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:14 AM

I was heartened to see Prof Stephen Hawking has refused to attend a scientific conference in Israel out of respect for oppressed Palestinian scientists.

It takes respectable people to wipe the veneer of respectability from repugnant oppressive governments who use terror of their own people as justification for carrying on what causes the terror in the first place.

I believe Germany called the French resistance terrorists...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

"Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia."
In practical terms , the Palestinians have had no rights to occupy the land thy have occupied for millenia, other than that which is of no use to Israel - not being "told they have no right" - a practical fact.
Israel have not proved themselves good neighbours from day one - their hand-granading occupied homes being proof positive of this.
You say I don't consider Jews human - you are the one who claim them to be terrorist implicated in the mass murder of refugees, the use of chemical weapons and the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins - as far as the rest of us are concerned, it is the Israelis who are the culprits.
Please go on blaming 'The Jews' as long as you wish - it underlines the Antisemitism of you and your little gang.
Jm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:40 AM

Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia...

Well, BB, Per Boo: Being displaced doesn't remove rights as indigenous people NO MATTER HOW LONG THEY ARE DISPLACED FOR[emphasis his]. ... Jews have been there for three thousand years...

Ergo, I guess the folks occupying the area prior to 3000 years ago have prior claom over "The Jews" & the land should be teturned to them, then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:57 AM

Israel have not proved themselves good neighbours from day one - their hand-granading occupied homes being proof positive of this.


Did all Israelis do that?
Of course not, and they were also victims of atrocities.

Israel's neighbours proved themselves bad on day one by invading with five armies to sweep Israel away!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

So, GregF,

Your post indicates that the Palestinians have NO right to any land whatsoever, since they were AFTER the Jews that you claim have no right to the land.

Waiting for you to tell the Palestinians to go away…..


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

"Ergo, I guess the folks occupying the area prior to 3000 years ago have prior claom over "The Jews" & the land should be teturned to them, then."

Let the Canaanites put in a claim then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

Greg F.
Maybe if you can find, today, any folks who as a polity, a folk with an historic memory, controlled what is now Israel then maybe your 'ergo' would have meaning. The fact is those folks don't exist. They assimilated into the prevailing culture, or otherwise disappeared from history. The Jew/Israelites/Judeans, conversely, have such a history: Exile,return; exile/return; exile/return; exile/return while during the exile periods there was always Jewish presence in the homeland.
As it stands your 'ergo' is 'absurdum'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

John, I was simply commenting upon the sophomoric claims of Boo, BB & Co. RE: "my claims of prior occupation are better than your claims of prior occupation" & therein lies your 'absurdum'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:41 AM

Jim,

:"you are the one who claim them to be terrorist implicated in the mass murder of refugees, the use of chemical weapons and the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins -"

These have been YOUR claims, not mine- I have asked for your factual evidence and you have failed to present any.


But you have established that you would rather lie than have a reasonable discussion based on facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

GregF,

So you will allow "claims of prior occupation" as long as they are not by Jews?

The post you are complaining about are in reply to the claims that the Palestinians have a MORE valid claim to the land by prior occupation, which YOU state is not true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:49 AM

"my claims of prior occupation are better than your claims of prior occupation"

I don't think anyone has made that claim Greg but some have claimed that the land belongs to the Arabs and that the Jews were stealing it from them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

2"These have been YOUR claims, not mine"
Yes they are - throughout all your arguments to use your own arguments - prove otherwise!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:01 AM

Jim,

YOU have show you are a bigot and anti-Semite according to the EU.

Your last few posts prove you are a liar.


All of this is proven- Now YOU prove otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM

"1695-6
The Dutch scholar and cartographer, Adriaan Reland (Hadriani Relandi) , wrote reports about visits to the Land of Israel. He was fluent in Hebrew and Arabic. He documented visits to many locations. He writes: The names of settlements were mostly Hebrew, some Greek, and some Latin-Roman. No settlement had an original Muslim-Arab name with a historical root in its location. Most of the land was empty, desolate, and the inhabitants few in number and mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, Acco, Tzfat, Jaffa, Tiberius and Gaza. Most of the inhabitants were Jews and the rest Christians. There were few Muslims, mostly nomad Bedouins. The Arabs were predominantly Christians with a tiny minority of Muslims. In Jerusalem there were approximately 5000 people, mostly Jews and some Christians. In Nazareth there were approximately 700 people - all Christians. In Gaza there were approximately 550 people - half of them Jews and half Christians. Um-El-Phachem was a village of 10 families - all Christians. The only exception was Nablus with 120 Muslims from the Natsha family and approximately 70 Shomronites."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM

It's a damned shame so much of the world knows how to read and write. To draw maps. If they hadn't figured out how to record their history and the battles they've fought (remembering that history is usually written by the winners, but lots of everyday folks keep diaries about events) they would have forgotten a lot of the small details and might not be parsing the dispute so finely today.

Some of you are harking toward the Ur status of things - back how it was in The Very Beginning. Whenever that was. It isn't going to happen. Today's Americans aren't going to move off of the continent if they find that they have no blood quantum of American Indian. Protestant former Scots aren't going to move back to Scotland from Northern Ireland. White South Africans who are still in South Africa are probably going to stay there. India Indians who live in various nations around the world are going to stay where they settled. Etc., etc.

Events in recent history - lets make that the last couple of hundred years - are plenty to keep people busy. It lets the Armenians fight with the Turks about how much land they are really entitled to, it lets the Kurds continue to try to carve out their historic homeland from Turkey as well as northern Iraq. It lets Japan fight with Russia about some inhospitable islands off the coast of Siberia and yet a logical extension of the Japanese archipelago. It lets American Indians continue to fight battles to prove they were tribes and receive compensation for lost assets (just because they protested the Dawes rolls in 1887 doesn't mean they weren't Indians). It lets ethnic regions artificially joined by colonizers fight to disassociate. The fact that European Jews left Europe under the worst of possible conditions and moved into the thousands-of-years-ago-historic-homeland of Jews in Jerusalem means they displaced the people who had been living there for a very long time since they left (if they were ever there to begin with). There are bound to be some misunderstandings.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

If certain folks were to limit themselves to more recent times rather than several milennia ago they'd be forced to face some very unpleasant (to them) truths, SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

So the airstrikes by the criminal Israeli forces that have killed a couple of hundred innocent men women and children in the last week are ok then because a lying scrap of parchment from a couple of thousand years ago justifies murder.

Nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM

Those are Reland's IMPRESSIONS as a tourist, PeeDee - a late 17th Century "how I spent my vacation". He didn't take a census, nor was he a resident. Interesting, but hardly conclusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

"If certain folks were to limit themselves to more recent times rather than several milennia ago they'd be forced to face some very unpleasant (to them) truths, SRS"

Agreed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

I agree with that also.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

I find it interesting that in this thread when the history of the region was first invoked it was to legitimize the Arabs' claim to it but when the same history is invoked in support of the Jews' claim to it all of a sudden it's all; "that is ancient history anyway it's only recent history that counts".


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:07 PM

"it's only recent history that counts"


You mean it is only the RIGHT recent history that counts.

Military occupation BY ARABS in 1948, driving out the previous Jewish Population is RIGHT, and approved of.

Military occupation BY ISRAEL in 1967, resettling Jews in the West Bank is WRONG, and disapproved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM

In Mark Twain's book "Innocents Abroad" he travel through the Holy Land and observes that it is dry, inhospitable and nearly empty. That was 1867, many years after Adriaan Reland observed similar things, although Reland was more of an accurate historian than Twain, and entertaining curmudgeon.

The Arabs started the modern push to flood the Holy Land with their people after Balfour declared that a Jewish State would be carved out of Ottoman-occupied territory, around 1917.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

PeeDee, Clemens' "Innocent's Abroad" is humor. Its not a documentary. You going to be quoting Walt Disney movies next? Or Flip Wilson?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

There are several issues being tangled up in propaganda here and about the only person talking historical sense (Musket is talking some political sense) is John on the Sunset coast.

There is a time after which conquest and control confers legitimate domain - for example the Norman Conquest. That leads to two questions. First, how long is that time? Second who can reclaim after the removal of a conquering power?

The (Islamic) Ottoman Empire kicks off about 1300. It's gone (and this date is more critical) by a date that I'd put somewhere between 1919 and 1922.

I assert (and the Zionists here disagree) that none of the resulting treaties mandates etc derive power from a previous legitimate authority. They are accordingly in my view based on recent (ish) invasions and subjection. If (as many here will argue) several hundred years of English rule of Ireland did not confer historical authority, then the shorter periods since the mid-1920s do not cut the mustard.

So, the Ottomans being gone and the English etc not having legitimacy, who does have a legitimate claim to the areas that JohnotSC so usefully dubbed "the Levant".

Option 1 would be the then occupiers. That would leave most of the area vaguely Arab with a few Jewish hotspots - mostly Jerusalem (it seems - I am open to more historical detail here). If that is a sound foundation then a quick look at a map will show territorial expansion on a considerable scale by the Zionist (linguistic disconnect intended) state.

Option 2 would be the pre-Ottoman occupants. We seem to remain unclear who they were and where their descendants now are and whether they have a claim to statehood. It is however clear, whatever BB says, that the Jews (to use a perhaps not entirely apt collective description) were at the highest watermark, not very much there and had not been so for centuries and maybe more. To look at this further we'd need to look more closely at the issue of territorial abandonment (compare the Falkland Islands).

My current view (on balance) is that a Zionist claim to a historical right to so much land looks distinctly iffy.

I'm not yet persuaded that we need to look back 3,000 years or more to find a logical view on entitlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:29 PM

I can see what you mean to some extent, Richard; but you seem to me to pay insufficient regard [in fact, none at all] to GB's mandate from The League Of Nations, which was internationally regarded by treaty at end of WW1 as a recognised arbiter in such matters; which mandate, as has been pointed out above, subsumed the 1917 Balfour Declaration.

And as to

"My current view (on balance) is that a Zionist claim to a historical right to so much land looks distinctly iffy"

what IYO is the conclusion to be drawn from this. Abolition of Israel? Starting from the somewhat dreary, but surely incontrovertible axiom that the only place one can start is where one happens to be, that scarcely appears a viable option, does it now? I mean, dash·it·all, dontchaknow, there the bloody country is, and it isn't just going to go away, or vanish just·like·that into the ewigkeit...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM

The League Of Nations, which was internationally regarded by treaty at end of WW1 as a recognised arbiter

Very much like the United Nations of today, which Israel consistently ignores.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

"Very much like the United Nations of today, which Israel consistently ignores."

And for very good reason, see: UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:25 PM

You bet, Boo - play that anti-Semitism card again.

Predictable. Boring. And still silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:29 PM

The League of Nations had no mandate from those whose lands in the Levant it claimed to give away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:41 AM

Oh, come on Richard. We surely don't have to go again into all the biznis of the fact that the bit of land at issue here had been for centuries part of the Ottoman Empire, which had ceased to exist as a consequence of Turkey's having been an ally of the losing side in WW1, so the disposal of its parts had, by greement of the victorious side's members, come under the aegis of the League of Nations when it was formed; and as this bit had been captured in 1917 by General Allenby so was at the time under de facto British government...

All of which you know perfectly well. You really are too intelligent to imagine that retrospective Bridge-Law almost a century later is going, even emotionally, to trump the internationally recognised settlements internationally agreed in the years following 1918.
Might as well question the legality of the Nuremberg Trials at this time of day.

Meanwhile, an answer to my question, please. What is to be done about the fact that the State of Israel, little as the great and powerful Bridge may like the fact, is there, and unlikely to cease to be there? Are you at one with Hamas, Isis, Muslim Brotherhood et al, that it must be swept into the sea? Or what?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:40 AM

"YOU have show you are a bigot and anti-Semite according to the EU.
If I am an Antisemite, so is Chomsky, Haaretz, Jews for Peace, all the Israeli soldiers who have testified to the behaviour of the Army in Gaza, every Jew who is critical of Israeli policy in Gaza, every Jew who is now describing what is happening in Israel as 'ethnic cleansing'... and as was Einstein when he warned of the risk of fascism in the State of Israel due to the behaviour of the Israeli freedom fighters following Independence.
Last year I watched a film where six retired heads of the Israeli Secret Service all of whom were critical to the point of condemnation of Israeli behaviour in Gaza - the last one made it clear that he believed what was happening was comparable to Nazi Germany.
You are using those who died in Nazi gas ovens as a shield, much as you are claiming that Hamas is using the Palestinian people as a human shield, to justify behaviour that is recognised as an abuse of human rights and, in some cases war crimes.
You quote the E.U. definition because it suits you, yet you totally disregard their condemnation of Israeli behaviour as well as that of the U.N. and many of the nations of the world - and all of the war crimes and human rights organisations - by your logic, all of these are 'Antisemites' as well - I have never claimed anything that they haven't said or are still saying over and over again.
Not only is hiding behind the dead to excuse and support your extremism and inhumanity, a despicably and cowardly act, but in attributing Israeli war crimes and atrocities to 'The Jews' rather than the Israelis, you are a prime example of Antisemitism yourself -it is something I would expect from David Irving and the like.   
The first person I ever heard describe Israel as 'fascist' was the daughter of Holocaust survivors; her mother made a point of showing me her tattoo.
I grew up in a family who supported the dream of the State of Israel even before its establishment.
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jews in Germany; he fought alongside Jews from Europe and America who were there for the same reason he was.
You claim I am an Anti-Semite, yet you have never once produced a single statement of mine attacking the Jewish people - on the contrary, by describing criticism of Israel as "Antisemitism" it is you who accuses the Jews of facilitating Sabra/Shatila, of using chemical weapons and heavy artillery on civilians: men, women, children, schools, hospitals - on establishing a doing on for a decade long blockade to starve the Palestinian people into submission - not the Israelis, but 'The Jews', according to you.
You say you have not - where in all your postings have you been anything but totally supportive of every single action of the Israeli regime?
You have yet to produce one single example of my attacking or even criticising the Jewish people, yet you describe me as an Antisemite and demand that I prove I am not - PROVE I AM - that is how natural justice works (go and read it up if you don't understand it, which you obviously don't).
The Israeli regime has betrayed the Jewish people and turned their dream into a nightmare, and you, with your strutting extremism, have supported that betrayal wholeheartedly.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM

Regret that I must agree with this bit at least of Jim's post --

"The Israeli regime has betrayed the Jewish people and turned their dream into a nightmare"

As I never tire of saying, present-day Israel as it has evolved is one of the greatest disappointments of my entire life (even tho it must be admitted that it remains the only outpost of anything approaching a modern civil entity in the region). I do not think I am alone in this.

What, if anything, can be done about it, I wonder?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM

"greement of the victorious side's members" - precisely, MtheGM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM

Richard: You really have not taken on board that I was replying to your fatuous assertion that "The League of Nations had no mandate from those whose lands in the Levant it claimed to give away", by pointing out that the entity "whose lands" we are here concerned with, the Ottoman Empire, whose lands these had been for centuries, had ceased to exist; and so one of the vital functions of the newly formed, by agreement of the victors of the recent conflict, LoN, became to determine what should become of its component parts. So whose lands, precisely, are you claiming the League had no warrant, or 'mandate', to give away? It had a warrant, or mandate, from all those upon whom victory had devolved the responsibility of establishing order amongst the chaos inevitably left by so destructive a conflict as had just occurred. And who should that be but the victorious allies?

A precise answer, please.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

I don't think the dead women and children were around in the days of The Ottaman Empire, let alone when scriptures claimed lands a couple of thousands years ago...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM

To have legitimacy in such determinations the League of Nations needed the proper consent of and derived from the peoples of the lands in question. I almost cannot believe that you don't get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

Which particular 'peoples', Richard? There was a mixture of nomadic Bedouin, indigenous Arabs, and Jewish settlers who had occupied much of the land by actual purchase, ie by paying in actual hard cash money for the parts of the land they colonised, this payment being made to the Turkish landowners under the Ottoman regime, who had freely agreed to sell their land. That is how the settlements in Galilee and around Lake Tiberias (under its various names) were established. The idea that the Jewish settlers just came in & settled on land without anyone's by-your-leave is one of the great myths. But of course, after the Turkish withdrawal, and the consequent mandate given to the British by the League of Nations, all sorts of new accommodations needed to be made. But why you should have any objection to those who had paid its then legitimate owners for land continuing in possession of it, I cannot see. It's you who just are not getting it.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM

When bulldozers forcefully remove people who were born on a piece of land whilst some bloke nods his head with an old book in his hand, you tend to feel Balfour, The Ottoman Empire and the bronze age aren't all that relevant to those who become displaced, contrary to The Human Rights Charter...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

"When bulldozers forcefully remove people who were born on a piece of land whilst some bloke nods his head with an old book in his hand"

So obviously those JEWS that were driven out of the West Bank in 1948 ( as well as the ones driven out of the OTHER Arab nation ) should get their land back, and the Palestinian Arabs who settled there after 1948 should be removed.


Or do you not think that JEWS have the rights you are giving Arab Muslims ( Since a number of Arab Christians were also driven out at that time).


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

What the fuck have Jews got to do with it?

A government is using it's predominant religion as an excuse for land grab. Got nothing to do with religion, either side. Religion is an excuse, not a fact.

1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:10 AM

They were driven out by the Arab League BECAUSE they were Jews.

Do you agree THEY deserve their land back?

YES OR NO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM

Don't be silly MtheGM. Anyone can buy a house, or a garden. That is a private transaction. It may, if done correctly, confer title to the land bought. It does not make the buyer a conduit for representation of the people of the region.

Those with the relevant titles might very well be a proper electorate for the communities occupying the land so bought. But only those areas.

Now compare those areas with those that Israel now claims to rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM

"YES OR NO."

Good luck with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

What about 1967? That was when Israel took back the land that the West Bank Jews had been driven off of, and had been settled by Arabs after 1948.

I know several Palestinian families- They had homes in Ramallah, a Christian town, and were driven out in 1948 by the Arab League. So when can I expect the Palestinian Authority to vacate their property?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

If it were that simple, BB, it would have been solved by now. What they "deserve," who is "entitled," and what is "fair" - all difficult questions in the layers of activity.

But those who support Israel all-out 100%, with blinders on, who can only see jewish victims struggling to find a place in the world after WWII are not seeing the abuses Israeli politicians have visited on their neighbors. Leon Uris wrote lots of novels and managed to create a romantic view of Israel that many people have since then had to get over, to see how she actually behaves herself today.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM

"Those with the relevant titles might very well be a proper electorate for the communities occupying the land so bought. But only those areas."


So those areas with NO resident population, such as MOST of the land of Mandate Palestine in 1921, have NO proper electorate, and can be transferred by the nation controlling it (Turkey, as the follow-on to the Ottoman Empire) to the league of Nations , which placed it under Mandate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:32 AM

And those who claim that Israel is not permitted to defend itself?

I see how Hamas behaves, yet am criticized for judging them by that behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:34 AM

It is NOT unreasonable to require that the same standards that are applied to Israel should be applied to the others in that region, and that not doing so is an indication of bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM

You're going to have a tough time showing that whole areas of "the Levant" had zero population (except for Jews) at all relevant times - particularly if you take account of a recent "right to return" (NOT one based on religious texts from bazillions of years ago)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

Now c'mon, SRS - all that land was given to the Israelis BY GOD. Doesn't pay to trifle with God's Will.

Do be careful or you'll end up on the BeeBoo Anti-Semite Enemies of Eretz Yisrael List.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM

OK, there is also confusion on jewish v. hebrew - the jews didn't exist, according to their own mythology, until the hebrews got out of bondage and decided to dedicate themselves to their god and become jews. Both hebrews and arabs are semites, a term for humans who evolved for the deserts in what is often referred to as the levant, wih big noses for the dryness etc, and they have hated each other since before the hebrews got into bondage in the first place. And nobody knows how they got there (into slavery and far away from their home), but the chances are that either the people who hated them sold them, or that they were captured in a war and taken by the people who ended up bonding them, but then why didn't they take the arabs too, and either way you have resentment between the hebrews and the arabs. Then you add in a god who has chosen the jews, and forget rational discourse between the 2... so back at the dawn of time when people are talking about the Mess o'Potamia they should not talk about jews, that is an anachronism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM

I'm sure I'm already on it. Israel has a real knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when it comes to peace talks.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

Ya got it in one, SRS. And apparently they don't ever learn - Israel's been doing it for decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:22 PM

"Israel has a real knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when it comes to peace talks."

I would posit that if you were to do a little research on the number of proposed agreements accepted by Israel and rejected by the other side since 1947 and posted the results, Greg wouldn't be so quick to honk his approval.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM

Bobad, I'v got your number. I'm not about to run off to do research to prove your theory that I happen to think is misguided. Do your own research. Better yet, let this one go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM

It's not a theory it's a fact but since you've got my number I'd better let it go - you have the power here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:00 PM

The "powers" are likely after you, Boo, because they're anti-Semites, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:37 PM

Sure thing Greg, you bet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:39 AM

Actual recorded fact in the matter of solutions proposed to establish the "Two-State" that Abbas says he is striving for comes down on the side of Bobad in this discussion.

Originally offered by the UN in 1947 the Jews of Palestine agreed to it and the Arabs of Palestine rejected it and encouraged by their Arab neighbours they elected to go to war with the express intention of "driving the Jews of Palestine off their land and into the sea". The importance of this is that as one side rejected the proposals there are no fixed boundaries, there are no "official borders" that any party in this conflict agree to - until there are then no meaningful negotiations can take place. Another important facet of this from the perspective of the Arabs of Palestine centres around divisions in their own ranks. Back in 1947 half of the Arabs of Palestine split along tribal lines followed the self-styled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in wanting a separate Arab Palestine, while the other half wanted the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to annex Palestine (The latter actually gained something out of the war of 1948 in that the Jordanians invaded and occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank areas of Palestine - in 1967 the Israelis liberated those areas and drove the Jordanian occupiers out restoring the land to Palestine).

Those who have agreed peace deals with Israel since 1949 and who have honoured those agreements have never subsequently been attacked by Israel. Those who have not and who harbour terrorists who continue to attack Israel and her people are, quite rightly attacked.

The latest "ceasefire" was agreed to by Israel and renounced by Hamas - TRUE?

Let them get on with it, they have had 67 years to sort it out and failed each and every time, fight on and be done with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:37 AM

This thread and the similar one are a La la land equivalent of what goes on in the real world.

Israel has far too many blinkered apologists for them to engage in real peace negotiations and the Palestinians have been kicked to fuck and let down so often, the world shouldn't really scratch it's head when they match the Israelis in sabre rattling and voting for hard nosed militants to sort this.

Just like in the real world, point out how disgraceful Israeli forces are being and you are accused of being a fan of the holocaust.

The likes of Bobad and beardedbruce have an agenda. Michael and, when he gets back, Keith like supporting any agenda if people such as Jim or I don't like it.

Sigh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM

"fight on and be done with it."
Yeah - lets kill them all because politicians can'r get it right.
By that logic, we'd all be a long time dead.
These are civilians - men women and children being slaughtered - and this has been the case from the beginning; slaughtered refugees, homes razed to the ground, ordinary men, women and children going about their daily lives being bombarded and showered on by flesh-eating chemicals, daily humiliation by uniformed thugs... fuck them all because politicians cannot arrive at a situation where two groups of people cannot live together in peace.
Yeah - let the Israelis bomb them into the Stone-Age - they have the capability, and they seem to have the will.
This sort of chocolate-soldier 'humanity really does suck!
Jim Carroll

From Yesterday's Irish Times;
"I WOULD RATHER DIE AT HOME": residents prepare for threatened onslaught.
CASUALTY FIGURES RISE AS ISRAEL CLAIMS PRACTICES 'CAREFUL' AND 'HUMANE'
IN AN AREA THAT IS HOME TO BETWEEN 70,00 AND 100,00 PEOPLE, THE ISRAELI WARNING HAS CAUSED WIDESPREAD FEAR.

In a side street in Gaza's Shati camp, an Israeli warning missile has just "knocked on the roof of Alaa Hadeedi's house, filling the road with a thin mist of smoke. A few ambulances have rushed to the scene and are waiting 100m or so from the house. Behind them, a crowd of wary neighbours gather to watch.
There is a sudden shout as someone hears the sound of the second missile - a live bomb this time - and the crowd surges backwards. Alaa Hadeedi's house explodes in a billowing cloud of concrete and wood fragments.
A driver by trade, Alaa Ha-deedi - who was not at home when the missile hit - stored gasoline inside his house. It ignites in an orange fireball.
This is the reality of Israel's campaign of house destructions: a missile fired into a street in which perhaps 150 people are gathered barely 100m from the target; people anxious to help and equally anxious about their shops and houses.
According to al-Mezan, a Gaza-based Palestinian human rights group, in the past week 869 Palestinian homes have been destroyed or damaged in similar Israeli attacks that have also claimed the lives of 173 people, many of them civilians. Even as talk of a ceasefire is growing, the attacks by both sides continue.

COLLATERAL DAMAGE
The way the Israeli military tells it, "knocking on the roof is a careful and humane practice, its drone operators and pilots holding back against the risk of collateral damage. But too often it is not careful, as the civilian death toll from the last week of attacks on Gaza attests.
A mile or so from Alaa Hadeedi's house, in the same Shati neighbourhood, Dr Nasser Ta¬tar, director general of Gaza's largest medical facility, the Shi-fa hospital, is examining the ruins of his house and of his private clinic.
He says he had just returned to his family on Sunday night after working a week straight at an overwhelmed hospital short of resources. "We've had tens of deaths and hundreds of injured. I needed to be at the hospital," he says. "It was just after the time for breaking the Rama¬dan fast at 7.50pm.
"The IDF called my nephew with a 10-minute warning saying that they planned to destroy my house. Because it took him several minutes to find me, it was less than 10 minutes. I got my family out quickly and warned my neighbours to take care. Then they hit my house with a rocket and then a second."
He walks through the destruction, picking up a book left on his consulting desk now covered in dust, and examines the tangled crater at the centre of his gutted home.
"I'm at a loss to explain why they did this," says 59-year-old Tatar. "I have been a doctor for 30 years. First I was a cardiologist, then head of cardiology, then director general. I have tried to reach out through channels to find out why this happened, but I've had no reply."
It is not only individuals who are feeling the impact of Israel's campaign but now whole communities, after Israel on Sunday advised the residents of large areas of the north of Gaza - which it says is the site of rocket launches - to leave before a threatened large-scale attack. In an area that is home to be¬tween 70,000 and 100,000 people, the warning has caused widespread fear and panic.
Farmers
On the edge of Attatra, a mile or so from the Israeli border and one of the threatened areas, Hiba Abu Halima, 34, is walking with her sister. "We left yesterday before the 12 noon dead¬line," she says. "We moved to a UN school in Gaza City. But we are farmers. I wanted to come back with our brother to water the crops. So we returned at nine this morning. We are afraid because no one is here, ft was already too dangerous with the shelling and we were fright¬ened by what the Israelis said they planned to do."
There is a sharp detonation close by from a tank shell. Hiba's sister presses herself to the wall bolt upright, her face crumpling as she bursts into tears. A lift is offered back to Gaza City but the sister refuses. "My brother is back there," she says, sobbing. "I don't know where he is. I have to wait to see that he is safe."
Others from Gaza's north who fled on Sunday are now living in crowded UN schools that have been opened as shelters.
At the Alfakhoura school in Jab-aliya yesterday families were still arriving, boys carrying in their bedding balanced on their heads.
Outside a classroom turned into a dormitory, 56-year-old In-shira Salman is sitting with her family of 15. "We slept on the ground outside last night," she says. "All the rooms were full and we had no bedding. So we didn't sleep last night.
"We came here in a panic. We live in a village only 700m or so from the border, which they have been shelling. Yesterday we heard on the television and on the radio that the Israelis had said they planned to attack and we should leave. We were so worried that we left. We'll only go back when it is over."

HUMILIATED
Not everyone, however, is prepared to stay the duration of the war in the UN refuges. Back in Attatra, 42-year-old Yasser Kh-deir, an air conditioning engineer, is sitting outside his business with his son Faris (16) and other local boys.
He tells the story of Gaza's re¬cent wars, Israel's Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009 and Operation Pillar of Defence in 2012. "My nephew was killed just up the road in 2012. During Cast Lead I spent 20 days living in a UN school. I won't do that again. It did not feel safe and I felt humiliated," he says.
"My wife and other children are in Gaza City but I wanted to come home. I am staying in my house because it is the only option. If I am killed, I would rather die at home."
(Guardian service)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:33 AM

Christmas is really great at clipping isn't he, shortening:

"Let them {The Palestinians and the Israelis} get on with it, they have had 67 years to sort it out and failed each and every time, fight on and be done with it."

To: "fight on and be done with it." Coupled with the usual Christmas style "over-the-top-but-inaccurate-knee-jerk reaction":

Yeah - lets kill them all because politicians can'r get it right.

"lets" Christmas??? WTF

lets as in "let's" = Let us??? We ain't even in the fight so just who the F**K are we going to kill and why? The world and it's dog have been bustin' a gut since 1947 to get this settled and in the meantime the cancer of Islamofascism has spread. Using this idiotic conflict as an excuse militant Islam declared war on the West over 40 years ago.

Bloody right let THEM fight it out once and for all and get done with it, get it over and finished with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:44 AM

Islamofascism - sums up your brain-dead partisanship.
Kill them all and be done with it.
Yeah - we know all about that Terrytoon - save it for closing time - you are a friggin' caricature.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM

It seems to me that the assertions from Teribus above rather support the view that the local inhabitants (apart from the Zionists) consistently opposed the Zionist land-grab.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

"Kill them all and be done with it."

You advocating that solution Christmas? Because having read through what I have written I most certainly am NOT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM

"'course you're not"
You've just described them all as "Islamofascists"- who the **** are you suggesting should "fight on and be done with it" - the Palestinians whose homes are presently under attack from Israeli bombardment and inevitable annihilation - if not, who? (it's just been announced that it's re-started)
There's an insightful cartoon in this morning's paper showing a heavily armed and armoured Israeli soldier with a shield bearing the word "warmonger" about to kill a fish in a barrel - the fish is spitting back - sums it up really.
There is no doubt that, should it come to it, the Palestinian people are in no position to offer any resistance and will either be slaughtered or driven to join the five million or so refugees scattered all over the world
This has never been about 'defence, as far as Israel is concerned - go and look at the casualty figures down the years and see how they balance out - and see how many of them are non-combatants - particularly children.
For all the bluster about defence, so far, the casualties of these rocket attacks has been precisely none - that's what this overkill is defending the people of Israel from.
It's the serial school bully complaining that one of his victims "kicked me sir".
When it comes down to it, it's about two groups of people, each with equal rights to a territory, being led by messianic zealots.
Richard is right - when it comes to worms-eye level, people are people and are happy and willing to get along with each other, whatever their differences in culture and religion.
Encouraging them to slug it out would suit the Israeli regime down to the ground - survival of the richest, strongest and most aggressive.
All the bullshitting bar-room-bluster from a wannabe warrior doesn't alter that one iota.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

Be fair, Jim. I know you feel very strongly on this isuue, but please do not let your feelings carry you away.

I can't see how you can asset that T's statement that

"the cancer of Islamofascism has spread. Using this idiotic conflict as an excuse militant Islam declared war on the West over 40 years ago"

equates to "You've just described them all as "Islamofascists"'. What "all"? He was saying was that those Islamists, whom he has specifically described as the "militant" part of Islam [which they clearly are, or else they wouldn't be doing whatever it is they are doing] who commit such enormities as 9/11, 7/7/ &c, have fascist temdencies which they have been displaying in various attacks for 40 years. Again, who are the 'all' whom you accuse him of applying the name to. It's clear that it only the destructive militants that he labels thus.

You are quick enough yourself to fling words like "fascist" and "Nazi" and such about in application to those of whose views and activities you disapprove. It has, as you know, been a big bone of contention between us for some time. Why should you deny him the right to apply a similar name where he deems it appropriate?

Sauce for the goose and all that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

Jim is "special".


The rules that have to apply to the rest of us do not apply to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:25 AM

"You are quick enough yourself to fling words like "fascist" and "Nazi"
So are Jews and non-Jews alike - you have never responded to any of those Mike - how about doing so now?
If he is suggesting that battle should commence - who is he referring to if not the Arab people as a whole
That the Palestinians should have expressed an opposition to Israel from the start cuts both ways, from the time Israeli "freedom fighters" went through the villages hurling grenades into occupied houses in order to create a "Jewish State" - that, for me has too much of the "Aryan people" ring to it as far as I am concerned.
If one side is wrong, both are.
At the present time we are talking about whether the Israelis should be allowed to bomb the Palestinian people as a whole into submission in order to return to the good old days of ghettoisation, blockade, Berlin walls and gradual but inevitable total displacement
Sure, Hamas isn't doing any favours to to Palestinians, in fact all it seems to be achieving is to give Israel a chance for stepping up its militarism, but it really doesn't need that anyway.
Don't let my feelings carry me away - sorry - none of us have any answers here, and certainly, we have no say over what is happening - al we are left with are our right to express what we feel.
The last place I would look for advice is a wannaba goose-stepper who probably couldn't pass the intelligence entry test if he tried (does the army have one of those?)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:15 AM

OK Jim -- you know I agree substantially, esp such as 'If one side is wrong, both are.' But you know my passion for accuracy; and I still think you were mistaken in accusing him of calling all of them by that particular designation when it was perfectly clear that he had only meant a particular, specific, part of the demographic. I still don't know quite what you meant by that "all" whom you accused him of denouncing but it's probably not worth your while explicating. Meanwhile I am not engaging further in this particular exchange; it was only that particular [what seemed to me] unwarranted accusation I was engaging with.

Best

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

Sorry Mike - I asked who he was referring to when he said, "let them get on with it" - the only reply I received was a typo correction.
This is part of a long-running diatribe from this unpleasant individual - apart from attacks on long-dead parents, he even showed us all his gun one time to prove his manhood - a real piece of work.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

Hamas is not a political organization in the normal sense of the term.

They were not formed to provide competent leadership over their people.

They were formed to wage jihad on Israel and kill Jews.


"According to Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, 'The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day Mein Kampf.' According to the charter, Jewish people 'have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world.' The charter claims that the Jews deserve God's/Allah's enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets. 'The Day of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

So.. This objective observer called Abraham.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:09 PM

Musket,

We have quoted the Hamas Charter from the Hamas website. If you do not care to accept something that THEY state, I see no reason to even bother discussing anything with you- You obviously are not open to facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:11 PM

"So.. This objective observer called Abraham......."
Is there a point to your unfinished post? Or are you really just trying to get us to finish your thought. Do you have anything to factually refute what was posted? Guess not, or you would have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM

Wanted Poster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

The Abraham post said it all. Not partial (says someone not partial to the petty bickering that so amused Data, said Tom wholesomely).


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:48 AM

So.. This objective observer with a Jewish sounding name...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

So, Musket,

We will now discount ALL statements and reports from those with either Jewish OR Arab sounding names, regardless of the factual basis that they present.


That IS what you are saying, isn't it? Or is it JUST statements by those with Jewish sounding names that should be ignored?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

That IS what you are saying, isn't it?

Idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:21 AM

Keep going beardbruce. All the sympathisers of Israeli terrorism on this and the other thread have failed to see the irony.

Which proves my point...

By the way, nice of the Israelis to give notice. A trick they learned from The IRA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Some folks say that views on the Israel-Hamas issue has nothing to do with anyone having anti-jewish vuews.
Then there us a suggestion that news from someone with a Jewish sounding name is suspect as being biased, or grounds alone for it not being reliable?

Puzzling?

Should, or can, we have it both ways?

Like with many folks worldwide, because of name changes, history, sharing of names worldwide etc., it would be an inexact exercise to guess at ones ethnic or religious background, or political beliefs, from their names alone.


Resources 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

Not according to Musket, who even GregF calls an idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

By the way, nice of the Israelis to give notice. A trick they learned from The IRA.

You would prefer them no to??
You are very ignorant of these issues Musket.
The requirement to give adequate warning before an attack that might endanger civilians is written into international law.
Israel seeks to comply.
Hamas flouts it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:53 AM

Please do not get me wrong, from my last post. I am not taking sides on tgis issue, not attempting to target anyone here.So, no need to either blast me, nor harbour resentment to be used in a future thread response on another unrelated topic.

My perspective on dumb statements:

We all say dumb things on occasion, (I am in this group)and more likely so in the heat of an emotional discussion. When we do so, it "looks better on us" when we admit it was so and everyone can then move on to more fruitful discussion. On the other perspective, there comes a time to move on from identifying and dwelling a dumb statement. Others likely noticed it-dwelling on it just reflects on you as being argumentative, not reinforcing the dumb statement itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

Giving 100,000 non-combatant civilians notice of a lethal bombardment of their homes, irrespective of age, health, mobility or alternative shelter is is murder, plain and simple.
It has already been suggested as a massive war crime, should it take place - the fact that such an act is even being considered is an indication of the depravity of such an act, whether it takes place or not.
A letter form the Palestinian Ambassador, to the Irish Times in response to one by the Israeli Ambassador defending such an act points out that while Israel has places of shelter for its people, Gaza has none.
So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none.
Murder, plain and simple
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

"So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none."

A false statement, but I am sure that ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM

"So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none."

Jesus, Jim, since you're so hung up on death statistics, let's get it right! From various news sources, one being CNN, I kept hearing, yesterday, that one Israeli had been killed. Does that make you feel better, sir?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

{Sigh} As we are debating with people of limited intelligence, it is sometimes reasonable to point out what you put rather than expect understanding...

If you don't they hilariously waffle on as if you said it at face value. The others think you might have said something or have a view. That's the problem with internet chat, you can't see me waving wanker signs at you whilst taking the piss.

Beardedbruce, PooBad, Keith, Michael etc love to judge people as being Hamas if they are Palestinian. I take the piss out of this by pointing out that a bloke called Abraham can't be objective. Ask your carer to look up satire in her dictionary.

Right.

Keith talks of legal bombing of civilians. I know he has no idea of military matters, but even a wannabe soldier might cringe at that..


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:22 AM

BeardedBruce said A false statement, but I am sure that ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy.

BB, that is sick, and you need help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM

Having read JIM"S posts, HE is the one who is sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"that one Israeli had been killed"
Whoops - missed that one - that changes things completely!!
No - it doesn't make me feel better - as far as I am concerned, this is about dead people, not "statistics" (interesting choice of word) and I don't give a shit what religion colour or taste in ties is, they are all human beings - which is why I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer.
"ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy"
I'm sure the Palestinian dead has fallen far short of your obvious wishes Brucie, but the Israelis are doing their best - don't lose hope just yet.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

-- "statistics" (interesting choice of word) --

Well you're the one who keeps bringing up the numbers, Jim, I just used the appropriate term for that type of number. I expect you, and those who agree with you, will keep bring up statistics as long as these threads last.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

"every single individual concerned is the only answer."
Whoops - far too idealistic and unobtainable - should have written,
"will tace into consideration the views and interests of all sides in this dispute.
Can't please all of the people all of the time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM


Keith talks of legal bombing of civilians. I know he has no idea of military matters, but even a wannabe soldier might cringe at that..


(Sigh)
You expose your ignorance yet again.

 Under the Geneva Conventions, as well as customary international law, if
a military objective, such as a missile launcher or weapons stockpile, is
placed in the heart of a civilian area, it does not cease being a lawful
military objective. The primary responsibility for civilian causalities arising
from the 'shielding' lies with the party that deliberately placed civilians at
risk.


 International law also requires that any military operation be 'proportionate'
in the sense that expected collateral damage to civilians and civilian
objects must not be excessive in relation to the military advantage
anticipated. This is a complex and difficult calculation and international law
relies on the best determination of the commander in the field in the heat
of the conflict to weigh all relevant considerations, including the security of
his own forces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:31 PM

Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.

It was when Bomber Harris and Churchill did it too, but victors dictate victory.

Aiming at schools, hospitals, residential areas and beaches full of playing children. As much as Geneva isn't my favourite city, I don't think even they would wish to be associated with Israel's response to the response to their oppression of neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

"Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.
"

YOU mean EXCEPT when the civilians are Israelis.

At least that is what you seem to be saying, supporting the Hamas War Crimes and declaring they the legal response by the Israelis is a war crime because the Gaza Government, under Hamas, discourages any attempt to move civilians out of attack zones, and specifically put legitimate military targets so as to maximize the Palestinian civilian casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has demanded "full respect for the sanctity of its premises" after discovering 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip.

The organisation said it "strongly condemned" those responsible for placing weapons inside the building, in what it described as a "flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law".

The incident is the first of its kind in Gaza, the group added, and comes as a five-hour humanitarian ceasefire expired. The end was marked by renewed cross-border fighting, as officials dismissed reports of a new truce agreement.

The UNRWA said: "This incident endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA's vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:48 PM

Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.

Wrong Musket.
Civilians must not be targeted, but with certain provisos (warnings etc.), military targets may be attacked even if civilian casualties are likely.
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jpzn.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Oh, good, FA - then lets bomb the living crap out of those civilians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:30 PM

In areas where civilians are concentrated, clearly-separated military objectives should n ot be treated as a single military objective. Unless circumstances do not permit it, each party to the conflict shall give an effective advance warning prior to an attack which may affect the civilian population.

In some cases, civilians and prisoners are used as human shields to protect military objectives from attack. In others, the red cross or the red crescent emblem is used to mislead the enemy and conduct military actions. Simulation of protected status by using the red cross, the red crescent, UN or other protective emblems are considered as acts of perfidy, amounting to a grave breach of humanitarian law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:39 PM

That sounds contorted enough to be original Bruce bullshit! Now lets see if he can render that in comprehensible English.

Unless its the usual un-attributed C&P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:03 PM

BB is quoting from the International Committee of the Red Cross Greg.
The English is completely comprehensible to anyone with a basic education and a modicum of intelligence.
Perhaps that is your problem Greg.

The link was just given in my post.
Do you need help in using it Greg dear?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:02 PM

If you are a civilian and you know they are bombing you why are you at the beach?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

BB, that is sick, and you need help.

Well, SRS, that's hardly his worst effort, and he could be helped right off the forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM

"I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer.
.,,.
So you never tire of saying, Jim.

But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas ~~~
'...the reply from the Hamas bomb-making chief Mohammed Deif was instant. On the website of the Izz-al Din Qassam Brigades he declared: "I thank Allah the exalted for his support in the Jihad of our people. I ask for your assistance to our jihad… We shall not rest until our entire holy land is liberated … To the Zionists we promise that tomorrow all of Palestine will become hell for you…"...
'Hamas rejects all possible compromise with Israel, and all possibility of a negotiated peace in the following terms: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavours."
                                    Daily Telegraph 16 Jul 14'

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:52 AM

The URL for the Telegraph article I quote above -- (please, Jim, in justice, do read it, even if the idea of reading from such a source is anathema to you. It really is quite a well-informed piece, at least worth any fair-minded person's consideration)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100280272/its-time-to-bust-the-israeli-blockade-led-to-hamas-rockets-myth/


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM

"I don't give a shit what religion colour or taste in ties is, they are all human beings - which is why I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer." - Christmas

Terrific Christmas - care to tell us how you are going to get Hamas to that table? Considering that:

1: The political wing of Hamas has got absolutely no control over its armed militants or any allied group working in their midst.

2: That the only "accommodation" that will satisfy Hamas is the complete and utter destruction of the State of Israel

I would dearly love to hear how you, Christmas, would "negotiate" as part of the Israeli delegation once sat round that table in the full knowledge that those sitting opposite you have not once complied with anything they have previously solemnly sworn to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 02:40 AM

"But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas ~"
No Mike - you tell us your alternatives - after all, your Christian humanist mate has told us how it is perfectly legal to carpet bomb the Palestinians into the Stone age.
As you say, it's not my job to come up with solutions, just to express my opinions on what should happen and what is happening in my name.
Despite Israel's serial aggressive behaviour at the conference table, you and braindead and Terry-the-Wannabe-Trooper take sides and point fingers, blaming 'the enemy', you at least have paid lip-service to Israel's betrayal of the Jewish people, yet continue to back their genocidal behaviour by blaming only 'the other side'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:19 AM

Beardedbruce. If you lie once more, saying I support the terrorist Hamas wing, I will ask searching questions about you and child porn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM

Isn't it nice here? Discussing the circumstances under which some people support murdering innocent civilians, including children.

What were the children doing on the beach? THEY WERE FUCKING PLAYING! Just like any children would. After all, there are no military installations on the beach so only terrorists would choose to bomb it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:48 AM

"If you lie once more...."
Give him a break Muskie - the only defence these people have for Israeli terrorism is lying, and wouldn't life be dull and boring without them?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:00 AM

Again, Jim -- I haven't got any 'alternatives'; but I fail to see why you think that simple fact adds any validity to your vain repetitions of the impossible.

I will just add that the day Hamas comes to the conference table I promise I will give you a nice red apple.

Till then, by all means go on saying at regular intervals that "negotiation is the only solution - hey ho for the conference table" like some sort of demented parrot if that's what turns you on. Does me no harm -- quite amusing and entertaining, in fact. But what possible satisfaction you are getting from this endless pointless rehearsal of something that's as likely to happen as "Next July we collide with Mars"*, I really cannot conceive.

~M~

*From 'Did You Ever', Cole Porter, from film High Society, 1956. Sung by Crosby & Sinatra -- one of their few collaborations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

"vain repetitions of the impossible"
If peace is impossible, discussing the subject is a waste of time - we may as well sit on our hands and send flowers when the time comes- wonder if we can book tickets for the show!
By ponting the finger, as you have done, "But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas" you have obviously chosen your side by absolving Israel in any of this - your prerogative.
Israel has made it perfectly clear that it is not interested in any peace deal that doesn't include them continuing to occupy and expand, and continue to allow the to treat non-Jews in the territory as lesser mortals.
It deliberately sabotaged the last round of talks to the extent that eve n their strongest supporters, the U.S., drew back.
Peace talks as before are obviously a waste of time; without American blanket support and with full U.N. participation, things could be different - otherwise what - another Syria, where the world stands by and does nothing about the butchery until it has escalated into something else?
At the moment, we are getting nothing from Israel but belligerence and vengeance, from Gaza, fatalistic despair and 'spitting fish'
We both know how far things can go when the world stands by and does nothing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

Israel has made it perfectly clear that it is not interested in any peace deal that doesn't include them continuing to occupy and expand, and continue to allow the to treat non-Jews in the territory as lesser mortals.

That is completely untrue.
All Israel seeks is an end to the bombardment of its people from Gaza.
Gaza could be prosperous and stable if it would only call off its war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM

Tell all sides then, including the rather transparent Israeli flouting of UN requirements to back off. Neither side trust the other. Whilst one side has it's western apologists, they never will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM

UN requirements to back off.
Huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:52 AM

"That is completely untrue."
Sure it is - "Up Israel" and "Onward Christian Soldiers" - same mixture as before
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM

'"By ponting the finger, as you have done, "But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas" you have obviously chosen your side by absolving Israel in any of this - your prerogative.'
.,.
Genuinely can't see how anyone can interpret that as my having 'chosen my side' or 'absolved' anyone of anything. I was referring, not to the problem as a whole, as to which I have nothing to contribute at present, but simply to the fact that the solution, that Jim kept asserting was the only one, was impossible of achievement. Instead of replying to this point, he replies in typical Carrolliian fashion with unsustained [and unsustainable becoz not the case] accusations of bad faith on my part.

I don't know how many times I have to say that Mr Carroll seems sometimes to be a permanent brick wall against which I am getting fed up with knocking my head. Think I'll give up and find a new, less stressful and more worthwhile, hobby: pulling my beard out hair by hair, perhaps...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:59 AM

Anyone see any reports as to why Hamas dix not abide by what was reported as a temporary cease fire-to allow the entry of humaritian supplies, and continued to launch rockets? That puzzles me?

I ask, as that was one reported reason for the current ground operation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM

Gaza Beach Shelling Eyewitnesses
Let's review eyewitness accounts of yesterday's sheeling of the beach when four Arab youngsters were killed:

NYTimes photographer:

    I had returned to my small seaside hotel around 4 p.m. to file photos to New York when I heard a loud explosion. My driver and I rushed to the window to see what had happened. A small shack atop a sea wall at the fishing port had been struck by an Israeli bomb or missile and was burning. ...
    ...A small metal shack with no electricity or running water on a jetty in the blazing seaside sun does not seem like the kind of place frequented by Hamas militants, the Israel Defense Forces' intended targets.

The IDF seems to have targeted a specific structure, not an open area or the boys.

From a Guardian correspondent:

    Beaumont, who has been in Gaza for the last nine days, said that during the time he has been at the hotel, that area of the harbor has been hit by the IDF "at least three times." Following the explosion, "on the retaining wall there were puffs of smoke and we saw four people running along it.


The area, having been attacked "at least three times" previously, would seem to indicate a terrorist target. You don't waste ordnance on children.

Was Hamas launching rockets from there?

Was it a naval base?

From Washington Post journalist:

    It is not unusual for militants to launch rockets from sites near my hotel. Israeli missiles and shells have also landed pretty close to al-Deira, an old red stucco inn with a large terrace overlooking the Mediterranean Sea. Just a few hundred yards down the beach is the fishing harbor.


UPDATE of an acknowledgement from The Guardian:

>
> A witness who identified himself only as Abu Ahmed said the boys had been scavenging for scrap metal when the first shell hit a nearby shipping container used in the past by Hamas security forces. He said the boys fled but a second projectile "hit all of them".


There you have it --- one, two, three.

And because of Hamas terror, four young kids lose their lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:06 AM

No, because of an Israeli finger on a US supplied button.

You really are sick, aren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:09 AM

Hamas Interior Ministry To Social Media Activists: Always Call The Dead 'Innocent Civilians'; Don't Post Photos Of Rockets Being Fired From Civilian Population Centers

"Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don't forget to always add 'innocent civilian' or 'innocent citizen' in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza."

"Avoid publishing pictures of rockets fired into Israel from [Gaza] city centers."

Hamas interior ministry social media guidelines


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM

"Anyone see any reports as to why Hamas dix not abide by what was reported as a temporary cease fire-to allow the entry of humaritian supplies, and continued to launch rockets? That puzzles me?"

They want the Israeli ground invasion. It will give them the opportunity to kill or capture Israeli soldiers and thus be able to make some claim of success something which they haven't been able to do up to now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:36 AM

"I don't know how many times I have to say that Mr Carroll"
Total annihilation it must be then - will you tell the apalestinians or shall I?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM

Egypt on its cease fire attempts 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

The Gaza ISIS connection,nite that it is an opinion piece not news:

Another longer term perspective-,Opinion  


From an Israeli news group (cant vouch for its accuracy).

ISIS on Gaza 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

Rather than picking a side, this person seems to be looking for a route to a potential solution to benefit all- (well, maybe not ISIS). In addition, Turkey seems to have links to the EU, USA and Russia, and has historic connections to many Arab countries.


GAZA from one Turkish perspective 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:43 AM

"The Islamic State, or ISIS, has responded to critics who have questioned why its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is not actively supporting Hamas in fighting Israel.

After capturing vast swathes of Iraq and Syria, ISIS declared the regions under its control as a "Caliphate", or Islamic state, and appointed Baghdadi as "leader of the Muslims". While many jihadists celebrated the announcement, others - including Al Qaeda, which ISIS broke off from last year - have criticized the move for a variety of reasons.

Since the recent escalation between Israel and Islamist terrorists in Gaza, some of those critics have questioned why a self-declared "Caliphate" is not rushing to the aid of Muslims in the Hamas-controlled territory.

In a statement a spokesperson for the group, Nidal Nuseiri reaffirmed that conquering "Bayt el-Maqdis" (Jerusalem) and destroying the State of Israel is central to the group's "jihad", or holy war.

However, he pointed out that ISIS has been taking a systematic approach in its campaign, and outlined six specific stages it said needed to be fulfilled before taking on Israel.

Some of those "stages" - building a firm base for an Islamic state in Iraq, and using it as a springboard to wage war in Syria and Lebanon - have already been achieved. But he said a number of other criteria still needed to be fulfilled before challenging Israel directly.

Among them, Nuseiri said that the US - seen as Israel's greatest ally - needed to be weakened politically and economically via attacks on the American mainland, as well as US interests in Muslim countries. Additionally, the existing "Islamic State" needed to expand its borders to cover all of "Greater Syria" (which would include Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and possibly Gaza); such a state, he said, would then be in a position for a direct confrontation with Israel."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:38 PM

One word, PeeDee: Blowback.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:08 AM

*sigh* at least they haven't shot down a civilian plane full of AIDS researchers... yet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:27 AM

I notice Obama has told Netanyahu to back off and stop indiscriminately killing innocent people. He said the right to defend has a fine line and Israel jumped over it without a pause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

"*sigh* at least they haven't shot down a civilian plane full of AIDS researchers... yet..."
Haven't read the news this morning, but unless there are new developments, the responsibility for that one was largely democratic, post-communist Russia - according to Obama, that is.
They did facilitate the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - don't suppose that counts as an atrocity - doesn't seem to to some people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

ISIS, which recently rebranded as the Islamic State, has solidified its control over Iraq's second-largest city by imposing Sharia law and expelling Christians who won't convert to Islam. The end of last month marked the first time a mass wasn't held in the city in more than 1600 years.

Then, matters got worse. From the Daily Beast:

Friday at noon was the deadline for Christian families to meet ISIS's demands: Convert to Islam, pay an anachronistic Islamic tax for non-Muslims known as jizya, leave Mosul, or be killed. But the day before the final exodus, Christians were informed jizya was no longer an option. The order came to convert, leave, or die.
On the way out of town last week, the final 1500 families of Mosul's Christian population were reportedly robbed at ISIS checkpoints. And following Friday's deadline, ISIS reportedly set fire to a 1800-year-old church.

Last month, ISIS shocked much of the world by swiftly capturing Mosul in an offensive that allowed the group to take control of major parts of northern and western Iraq. As Reuters reported, the group has managed to shore up its control over communities with a combination of force and fear. After meeting armed resistance in the town of al-Alam for nearly two weeks, here's what the group did:

They kidnapped 30 local families and rang up the town's most influential citizens with a simple message about the hostages: "You know their destiny if you don't let us take over the town."
Weeks later, according to the report, only a few gunman patrol the town at night "so comfortable is the Islamic State in its control through fear." Since then, with Baghdad as the prize in mind, the group has grown in size from 3,000 by earlier estimates to 20,000 as last month's offensive bolstered their standing."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:59 AM

Daily Beast? Is that you or a newspaper?

If I want to read a newspaper, I tend to take on board the political position of the editor first. Just cutting and pasting tells us nothing of what they want people to believe.

Not everybody is as gullible or as single issue as you. There are enough bad things going on without over dramatisation by someone with an agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM

Musket,


YOU state:
"
If I want to read a newspaper, I tend to take on board the political position of the editor first. Just cutting and pasting tells us nothing of what they want people to believe.

Not everybody is as gullible or as single issue as you. There are enough bad things going on without over dramatisation by someone with an agenda."


My post is from:
http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/isis-torches-1800-year-old-mosul-church-after-expelling-christians/374834/


I expect that you will now provide the SOURCE for any factual ( if any) statements you make here, so that the rest of us can judge how gullible and over dramatized YOU are being.

Or are you demanding a special set of rules that YOU do not have to follow?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

You should know the drill by now Bruce....when you can't challenge the facts attack the source....or the messenger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:10 AM

Musket, here is the same story in the Independent today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-sets-fire-to-1800yearold-church-as-christians-families-flee-violence-9622541.html

And last Sunday.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/conversion-of-iraq-as-isis-drives-christians-out-of-their-homes-the-groups-genocidal-intentions-take-on-horrible-clarity-9617651.html?origin=internalSearch


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:15 AM

You should know the drill by now Boo & BB....when you can't challenge the facts

Scream Anti-Semite!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:17 AM

No need to scream it - it's coming through loud and clear enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:16 PM

And for those out there thinking Israel is so bad… And this is only through June 30.


"The violence in Iraq has killed more than 5,500 civilians over the first six months of the year, according to a report by the United Nations that documents the massive humanitarian toll of the Sunni militant offensive.

The Islamic State (Isis) and other Sunni insurgents seized control of the city of Falluja, as well as part of nearby Ramadi in Anbar province in early January. The militants then launched an offensive in June that has brought a huge swath of northern and western Iraq under their control.

In its report, the UN mission to Iraq says at least 5,576 civilians were killed and another 11,665 wounded from 1 January until the end of June. Another 1.2 million have been driven from their homes by the violence, it adds.

The pace of civilian deaths over the first six months marked a sharp increase over the previous year. In all of 2013, the UN reported just over 7,800 civilians killed, which was the highest annual death toll in years.

The fighting "has inflicted untold hardship and suffering on the civilian population with large-scale killings, injuries, and destruction and damage of livelihoods and property", the UN report says."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM

"The violence in Iraq has killed more than 5,500 civilians over the first six months of the year, according to a report by the United Nations that documents the massive humanitarian toll of the Sunni militant offensive."
Difference in numbers only - sliding scale again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM

I don't quote any fucking sources, prick.

I am capable of debate, hence I am typing in a debate tread.

I am sure there are websites for cutting and pasting things you don't understand and passing them off as your considered views, but Mudcat doesn't offer that.

Some of us can form our own views and challenge others. That is why Keith can confidently challenge people to defy his views, because he cuts and pastes them from his far right favourite sources. Just like you. You can't educate pork and it isn't worth arguing with those who cannot defend their posts because first, they have to understand them, having posted the words of others.

Beleive it or not, having your views articulated for you by others I leave to God botherers and those who have their best interests advocated for them due to their lack of mental capacity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM

"
I don't quote any fucking sources, prick.
"


So your opinions are NOT based on any factual basis, and should rightly be ignored as the opinion of an ignorant asshole.



YOU said it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

"The violence in Iraq has killed more than 5,500 civilians over the first six months of the year"
Yup - agree with you totally one is as bad as the other- maybe, there's a chance for Israel to draw even by facilitating another Sabra/Shatila - they're certainly working all out in Gaza at present - 647 and counting
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

No, Jimmy boy

That is the TOTAL count- Not all are civilians in Gaza.

The UN report is ONLY on civilians, not armed militia and other forces.


So a factor of 10 is just a sliding scale-

THAN THE ISRAELI CIVILIAN DEATHS BY HAMAS are just as significant as the Gazan ones- EVEN ONE IS YOO MANY.

SO WHAT IS HAMAS doing to REDUCE Israeli civilian deaths? Launhing more rockets at those civilians?


I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

"those who have their best interests advocated for them due to their lack of mental capacity"

Ah, yes; the "mental capacity" of the perpetrator of that post is well exemplified by its opening ---

"I don't quote any fucking sources, prick."

What was it that old song I recall from years back used to say? -- something like ♫♫"Isn't he a sweetie! Isn't he a lamb!"♫♫

LoL in ♠♠♠♠❢❢❢❢ Dontcha just luv him❣❣❣

X❤♥~MtheGM~♥❤X


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:02 PM

Bearded in reference to dingleberries?

Anything to justify killing of Palestinians and Israeli expansion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM

What Israeli expansion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM

What dingleberries?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:50 AM

So cutting and pasting is expressing your view? Perhaps if braidedbeardedbruce reads up on the word debate, he might learn what expressing a view is. Based on applying reason to what you read hear or see.

No wonder you have no clue what the Israeli militants are getting up to. Or he does and it excites him. Don't know which is worse, noisy ignorance or noisy repugnance.

Hi Michael! As you seem to read my posts in detail, perhaps you can help me and ask your newsagent to pass this rucksack on to his nephew?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:35 AM

"That is the TOTAL count- Not all are civilians in Gaza."
The vast majority are civilians and a large percentage of them are children
It really doesn't matter anyway, the Israelis are not discriminating who they kill, maim and drive from their homes - theirs is a scorched earth policy aimed at the general population - nothing whatever to do with defence an never has been.

"What Israeli expansion?"
Haaretz
By Akiva Eldar | Mar. 30, 2012 | 3:37 AM |   48
"Israel Defense Ministry plan earmarks 10 percent of West Bank for settlement expansion
Newly released maps indicate Civil Administration secretly setting aside additional land for Jewish settlements, presumably with the intention of expanding them.
For years Israel's Civil Administration has been covertly locating and mapping available land in the West Bank and naming the parcels after existing Jewish settlements, presumably with an eye toward expanding these communities.
The Civil Administration, part of the Defense Ministry, released its maps only in response to a request from anti-settlement activist Dror Etkes under the Freedom of Information Law.
In some places the boundaries of the parcels outlined in the maps coincide with the route of the West Bank separation barrier.
The state has argued before the Supreme Court and the International Court of Justice in The Hague that the route of the separation barrier was based on Israel's security needs. But Civil Administration's maps and figures, disclosed here for the first time, suggest the barrier route was planned in accordance with the available land in the West Bank, intended to increase the area and population of the settlements.
A total of 569 parcels of land were marked out, encompassing around 620,000 dunams ‏(around 155,000 acres‏) − about 10 percent of the total area of the West Bank. Since the late 1990s, 23 of the unauthorized outposts were built on land included in the map. The Civil Administration is endeavoring to legalize some of these outposts, including Shvut Rahel, Rehelim and Hayovel.
Etkes believes this indicates the settlers who built the outposts had access to the administration's research on available land − more proof of the government's deep involvement in the systematic violation of the law in order to expand settlements, he says.
The maps name numerous communities that do not exist. These include Shlomzion, on land belonging to the Palestinian town of Aqraba, east of Nablus; Lev Hashomron, on the land of Kafr Haja, between Nablus and Qalqilyah; Mevo Adumim, on the lands of al-Azariya and Abu Dis; and Mitzpeh Zanoah and Mitzpeh Lahav, in south Mount Hebron.
The names of several sites suggest they are earmarked for the expansion of existing settlements, although some of the parcels are several kilometers distant from their namesakes. These include Immanuel Mizrah, Elkana Bet, Beit Aryeh Gimmel and Tekoa Sheet'hei Mir'ey, among others.
The maps also mark 81 sites on 114,000 dunams in areas A and B, which are under Palestinian civil control, indicating the Civil Administration began identifying available land before the Oslo Accords. But these parcels have not been updated in several years because Israel cannot build settlements on them.
All the other areas − 506,000 dunams in Area C, have been updated in the past decade. This implies the administration earmarked the sites as reserves for future use, says Etkes.
More than 90 percent of this land is east of the separation barrier, beyond the main settlement blocs.
"This means the administration currently updates the 'land bank,' flouting the peace process, which is based on the two-state principle," Etkes said.
Most of the marked areas − 485,000 dunams in area C − are classified as state lands. About 7,600 dunams are classified as "Jewish land" from before 1948, and 12,800 dunams are unclassified. way. Presumably the administration sees them as state lands, says Etkes.
Under international pressure Israel has drastically reduced new claims of land for the state. In a letter to Nir Shalev of Bimkom − Planners for Planning Rights, the Civil Administration said that in 2003-09 a total of 5,000 dunams were declared state lands, as opposed to hundreds of thousands of dunams in previous decades.
Some 375,000 dunams in Area C are not included in the jurisdiction of the settlements, which take up some 9.5 percent of the West Bank.
A 2007 Peace Now report indicated that only nine percent of the land in the settlements' jurisdiction were in use. The administration's map reveals the existence of another land reserve. Although only a small part has been officially allocated to the settlements, it is being constantly updated by the administration.
The Civil Administration said in a response that the maps are a data bank that is updated from time to time and does not indicate plans to expand settlements, which is a complex procedure requiring discussions and permits."

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:08 AM

That is not expansion.
It is emigration.
Israel has shrunk back to a tiny sliver of land surrounded by vast Arab nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:02 AM

With other events in the news, ISIS has taken a back burner. That does not mean there is a pause in its actions.

ISIS in the news 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM

Indeed.
There are other threads for other events, but this thread has to be hijacked to attack Israel too.
Such obsession suggests irrational phobia.

"genocide" (Independent)
Who cares?
Burning truly ancient churches.
Who cares?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:16 AM

Discussing Israelis slaughtering Muslim civilians an "obsession"?
Maybe to sick obsessive who openly support such things - not to normal people who consider fragment bombs used on non- combatants obscenity.
Thread drift rides again, as it always does when our resident hate-merchant finds himself in a hole
"It is emigration."
WHAT!!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM

"Islamists may be planning imminent attack in Norway: police
Reuters
2 hours ago

OSLO (Reuters) - Militant Islamists with ties to Syria may be planning an attack in Norway, the head of the Norwegian police intelligence service said on Thursday.

"We also have information to suggest that any act of terrorism against Norway may take place shortly, probably within a few days," said Benedicte Bjoernland, the director of the Police Security Service, declining to reveal the source of information. "The people (named in the threat) participated in the fighting in Syria."

NATO-member Norway has been working to clamp down on militant activity, and in May it arrested three people suspected of aiding The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, an al Qaeda offshoot fighting in Syria.

Also in May, the spy chief of neighboring Sweden said the country's biggest security threat came from around 200 Islamists who could become involved in militant attacks, including young people radicalized after fighting in Syria. A botched suicide bomb attack four years ago in Stockholm and the conviction in 2012 of three Swedes for plotting to kill people at a Danish newspaper after it published cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in 2005 have shown the Nordic countries are not immune to attacks.'


http://news.yahoo.com/islamist-militant-group-may-planning-attack-norway-police-085935292.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM

Jimmy boy,

"not to normal people who consider fragment bombs used on non- combatants obscenity. "


So you have defined yourself as other than normal- YOU have supported Hamas using those bombs, as long as they ( sort of) aim them at ISRAELI civilians.


So far, Hamas has killed Palestinian civilians and Bedouins living in Israel with those rockets,


BUT YOU MAKE NO COMMENT AT ALL SINCE YOU CAN'T BLAME THOSE DEATHS ON ISRAEL.


That is part of the DEFINITION of Anti-Semitism as defined by the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

"So you have defined yourself as other than normal- YOU have supported Hamas using those bombs, as long as they ( sort of) aim them at ISRAELI civilians."
You are lying Brucie - always a sign that you are in a corner
Feel free to produce of ANYBODY OTHER THAN YOUR OWN CROWD BOMBING CIVILIANS - LET ALONE USING ANTI-PERSONNEL FRAGMENT SHELLS
We can't stop you lying anymore than we can stop you calling those who oppose Israeli terrorism, "Antisemites - nor would we want to, as far as I'm concerned.
Your doing so is a clear indication of the type of fascist-supporting ratbags you really are
Fell free to either keep up the good work or humiliate us by producing evidence of your lying claims - won't hold my breath
Have a good day - d'you hear - plenty of entertainment on the television at present now the death toll has topped 700
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

Jimmy boy,

"You are lying Brucie - always a sign that you are in a corner
Feel free to produce of ANYBODY OTHER THAN YOUR OWN CROWD BOMBING CIVILIANS - LET ALONE USING ANTI-PERSONNEL FRAGMENT SHELLS
"

YOU are the lie- as usual. The ROCKETS that Hamas has admitted firing at Israeli civilians, have been seen being launched from hospital yards, schools, and apartment blocks, and found in UN schools ARE ALL ANTI-PERSONNEL FRAGMENTATION WARHEADS.

Your failure to understand that is proof that you have no interest in the truth or in reducing civilian casualties- YOU have NEVER said that Hamas should stop firing them.

YOU, Jim Carroll, have shown yourself to be an Anti-Semite by the EU definition.





Point proven, you have been humiliated.

Not that that will stop your bigotry and encouragement of civilian casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM

to repeat:

Hamas rockets ARE ANTI_PERSONNEL WARHEADS.

Hamas rockets fall in Gaza and kill Palestinians with their ANTI-PERSONNEL WARHEADS.


Jim Carroll is a liar and has the blood of Palestinian civilians on his hands for his support, by repeatedly lying about facts in order to excuse Hamas war crimes.


"A Palestinian Arab girl was killed and three others wounded in Gaza after a rocket fired at Israel by terrorists in the Hamas-enclave fell short, landing in Gaza itself.

The rocket was the third of four fired within an hour from Gaza. The Iron Dome anti-missile defense system shot down the first two, which were launched within minutes of each other, and the fourth hit a town in the Sedot Negev Regional Council, causing no damage.

Hamas medical sources say the fatality is a three-year-old girl.

Over 20 rockets have been fired at Israel since Operation Brother's Keeper began two weeks ago to rescue the three Israeli teens kidnapped by Hamas terrorists, with the IDF noting that over 200 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the start of the year.

Another failed missile was recorded last Friday. After Iron Dome shot down a rocket earlier in the day, another terrorist rocket was fired but fell short of its mark, landing in Gaza. No damage was reported in the incident.

In addition to the four rockets on Tuesday, Arab media sources reported mortar fire being launched from Gaza towards the Erez Border Crossing. IDF sources said the incident is being investigated; no damage or injuries were reported."


Note that Hamas NEVER admits that ANY of their rockets hit Gaza, even when observed to do so. NOT ONE PALESTINIAN CASUALTY ADMITTED- They blame them all on Israel even when there had been NO Israeli attack at that time or place.

And Jim Carroll repeat these lies, in support of a declared terrorist organization that has stated it's goal is to KILL JEWS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM

Propaganda from Juicy Brucie's friends - note that even here the disparity in arms is self-evident.

http://beyondthecusp.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/hamas-rockets-and-israeli-munitions/


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 12:45 PM

Israeli militants under the command of Netanyahu have bombed a UN run school, used as a shelter. It is the fourth time, according to The BBC that UN facilities have been bombed.

725 Palestinians have now been killed, and 30 Israelis.

If braidedbeardedbruce wants to waffle on about killing Jews, not a single Jew nor Arab has been killed.

Just 755 humans.

You see, it doesn't matter which imaginary friend you have when you are alive, there isn't one for when you are dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM

U.N. School casualties announced as 15 dead, dozens injured
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:16 PM

Palestinian HAMAS officials claim that it was Israeli tank shells-


— Israeli tank shells hit a compound housing a U.N. school in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, killing at least 15 people and wounding dozens who were seeking shelter from fierce clashes on the streets outside, Palestinian officials said, as Israel pressed forward with its 17-day war against the territory's Hamas rulers.

Related Stories

Gaza fighting rages amid cease-fire efforts Associated Press

Pools of blood stained the school courtyard in the northern town of Beit Hanoun, amid scattered books and belongings. There was a large scorch mark in the courtyard marking the place where one of the tank shells hit. Dozens of people, including children were wheeled into a nearby hospital as sirens wailed."

This sounds a LOT like an Hamas rocket, and NOTHING like a tank shell of any kind.



"The Israeli military said it was reviewing the incident, saying that rockets launched by Hamas had landed in the Beit Hanoun area during fighting with its forces, and that those rockets may be responsible for the deaths."

Amazing how a tank shell that puts holes in concrete just leaves a black mark in an undamaged courtyard, like those Hamas rocket ANTI_PERSONNEL Warheads do.


But of course we HAVE to believe Hamas, and CANNOT believe Israel NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE.


What a bunch of shit-for-brains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM

And MORE from Musket and Jimmy's friends in Iraq…I wonder if they are getting paid, or just support ISIS for the fun of it.


Geneva (AFP) - Jihadists in Iraq have ordered that all women between the ages of 11 and 46 must undergo female genital mutilation, which could affect up to four million women and girls in the war-ravaged country, a UN official said Thursday.

The UN's second most senior official in Iraq, Jacqueline Badcock, said, "It is a fatwa (or religious edict) from ISIS, we learnt about it this morning. We have no precise numbers."

The Islamic State, formerly known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), took over large swathes of the country last month and has begun imposing its extreme Salafist interpretation of Islam.

Badcock said that if you took UN population figures as a guide, around "four million girls and women could be affected".

Female genital mutilation is unusual in Iraq and is only practised in "certain isolated pockets of the country", she added.

She said only 20 families from the ancient Christian minority now remain in Mosul, the northern Iraq city which ISIS has taken as the capital of its Islamic state. Most have reportedly fled north into Kurdish-controlled territory.

Badcock said some Christians have converted to Islam, while others have opted to stay and pay the jiyza, the tax on non-Muslim's ISIS has imposed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM

"The Israeli military said it was reviewing the incident,"
And about to find themselves not guilty as they have after every other massacre they have taken part in.
Who knows they may make the feller who did the killing prime minister, like they did the one responsible for the Sabra/Shatila massacre - watch your back Netanyahu - there's somebody after your job.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

Jimmy boy,

SHOW ME ONE CASE WHERE HAMAS HAS ADMITTED THAT THEIR OWN ROCKETS HAVE KILLED PALESTINIANS. THERE IS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE that they HAVE misfired, and hit populated areas of Gaza, yet NEVER has Hamas admitted it., Nor have YOU.


You seem to think their coverup is just fine- another example that proves YOU ARE AN ANTI-SEMITE according to the EU definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

Jimmy is just fine with DEAD PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS, so long as he gets to try to blame Israel for them.

When SOMEONE ELSE Kills Palestinian civilians, or other Arab Muslims, he is so quiet. I guess he does not want to upset his friends in Hamas and ISIS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

Beardedbruce.

You are supporting terrorists. Stop saying decent respectable members of the human race such as Jim and I do.

We don't. We are humans with a conscience. You are the one exhibiting personality disorder here and it ain't pretty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

Musket,

To the contrary. YOU and Jimmy are the ones who support war crimes and the murder of innocent Palestinians civilians by Hamas. You are hardly decent or respectable members of the human race- You fail two present any facts to support your opinions, and attack those who disagree with you rather than present facts to show where they may be wrong. THAT makes you scum.

"We don't. We are humans with a conscience. "

More lies- YOU have shown no conscience or humanity, just support for attacks on innocent civilians, both Israeli and Palestinian, by Hamas.

You are the one exhibiting personality disorder here and it ain't pretty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM

Ah, BullshitBruce is off his meds again.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM

GregF,

YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie, and got caught at it. Do you think you might stop having your friends try being as much of a scum-sucking asshole as you have been?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:37 PM

"YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie"
No Brucie - you have called everybody who thinks the people who have just bombarded a school full of refugees murdering bastards, supporters of Hamas or Antisemites or liars or naive - now, but your money were your moth has been and defend your owqn support for terrorism rather than name calling and skulking behind the Jewish dead
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM

There is a current thread for Israel already.
Why must you use this one too.
The Caliphate has announced compulsory FGM.
Who cares?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:05 PM

From BBC:

Doubts grow over Isis 'FGM edict' in Iraq 


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:17 PM

I doubt that the Sunni fundys known as ISIL, ISIS, or IS, have a statutory position mandating FGM. FGM is not Islamic, it's cultural, happens to be cultural in Islamic countries mainly.
there are plenty of real horrors to accuse IS for, FGM probably not one of them.
If you don't care, then don't drag in extraneous untruths (Just the straneous one).


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:47 PM

YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie

Please specify and document your accusation , or is it simply more of the usual Bullshit we all expect from Bullshit Bruce?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM

Another thread that should be terminated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM

Or, perhaps, another poster that should be terminated ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:56 AM

Female genital mutilation is too (not to mean overly, but contradicting is not) islamic. Look it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:35 AM

"Who cares?"
Nobody cares what propaganda you and you cabal of brothers care to throw up, especially when you either openly suppor or deny out of hand what is now appearing nightly on our televisions - destruction of hospitals, slaughter of men, women and children, use of horrific weapons... the potential wiping-out of an entire Third World people by fascist thugs.
Bring your proof and we'll care Keith - you can open a newspaper or turn on the television and see ours (or are they "in the pay" of Hamas, as your sick moth-frothing friend has suggested all of us are disgusted by what is happening is.
It is easy to see how pre-war Germany happened when you come into contact with you people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:03 AM

Keith quite rightly asks if anyone cares that ISIS wish their caliphate to include FGM.

Sadly, that's what happens when religion has too much influence in society and wicked people use it to justify misogyny and bigotry.

The thread I started on the positive steps the Anglican Church has taken in allowing women to apply for senior posts shows that interpretation of scriptures can be altered if you come under enough pressure from the rest of society.

Somehow though, I don't see the militant genesis of this caliphate being about the will and needs of those caught within it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

This was in the Guardian yesterday.
"The United Nations said on Thursday that militant group Islamic State (Isis) had ordered all girls and women in and around Iraq's northern city of Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation."

I hope the claim has proved false.
The point I was making was that serious issues and concerns regarding the caliphate appear not to concern many contributors here, who would rather use the thread as just another platform to attack Israel.

There are hundreds of threads about Israel including a current one.
What drives those people to carry on as if nothing else in the world matters?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

Why, Keith, antisemitism, of course.

And as that rather well conceived character, the barrister in Shaw's 'You Never Can Tell' would have put it --

They think it isn't, but it is.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:07 AM

Nothing else in the world matters if the aggression in Gaza proves that neither Western nor Arab league influence actually works. It also may prove, as if we didn't know already, that there are no rules.

Back to caliphates..

I hope The UN report proves to be taking a local story and extrapolating it. The will of the leadership would encourage it though, as they use adherence to religion as a tool to ensure the people do their bidding.

Awful. Truly awful. I was one of many who fought hard, unsuccessfully, to remove the right of rabbis to perform circumcism on baby boys.   Other faiths and no faiths need qualified medical staff to undertake it, citing health (the original biblical reason funnily enough) as the legal reason. If you banned it, it would go underground. I have seen this when doctors doing it privately for Islamic reasons had to register with CQC and some didn't like the cost. Being struck off and in one case jailed was the satisfactory real cost.

Mutilating children for superstitious reasons is sickening and abhorrent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

Video here of the destruction of the ancient mosque which marks the tomb of the prophet Jonah.
Nice people.
https://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/07/24/isis-destroys-prophet-jonahs-mosque-in-mosul/


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM

Funny, Keith, I'd have inferred that you approved of the destruction of mosques.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM

"Video here of the destruction of the ancient mosque which marks the tomb of the prophet Jonah."
Oh dear - pity it wasn't a hospital, do you mean?
"I hope the claim has proved false."
No you don't - you hope it is true - the Guardian report points out that the UN have dropped the idea because the report is a year old and there is no evidence to back it up - you forgot to mention that bit of 'unnecessary' information
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:20 AM

GregF,

YOU stated that I had called someone a "Dumb Ni**er"


Your explainanition was that SOMEONE ELSE had used the term "Black, and Democrat", which YOU read as "Dumb Ni**er"


You even admitted that you had the wrong person- after the fact.


In this area of the country, people are fired from their jobs for using such terms as "niggardly" , even correctly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM

Michael just said that we are only interested in the horrific events in Gaza because we are somehow antisemitic.

So.. The whole world looks on in disgust at the Israeli militant terrorists because of something to do with hating anybody of the same religion as most of the Israelis?

Truly awful.

Its a good job that once you reach his age, nobody listens to you and your views are no longer relevant to the real world. Does nurse know you have access to a keyboard?

I've just read The Guardian piece. Turns out Keith was being economical with the timeline. Still, the ISIS leaders would use such barbaric practice as part of their misguided misogyny, as religious people tend to, so vigilance is still a watchword here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:30 AM

Jim, the report has since been updated.
Yesterday it was just the Guardian quoting UN stating it was so.
If it is false, good.

Richard, perhaps you will reconsider your prejudice against me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM

We can hope that it is not true, but it is being reported in the world press.


http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/07/24/-ISIS-order-female-genital-mutilation-in-Iraq.html


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/ISIS-jihadists-order-genital-mutilation-of-all-women-in-Iraq/articleshow/38


http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/iraqonthebrink/did-isis-order-mass-female-genital-mutilation/article1-1244306.aspx


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

The report has not been updated
The 'evidence' from the UN had come from an official, Jacqueline Badcock, who based her statement on a year old statement which has been challenged on the basis factual errors contained in the document and the fact that it was headed using a long-abandoned title for the supposed declaration - in other word a fake.
The plan has been denied, both by ISIS, who are in the position not to have to bother their arses about denying anything, and by area officials.
All these facts are contained in reports published in the Guardian and other Press outlets , and it is typical of your 'honesty and integrity' that you have seen fit not to mention them.
Nobody doubts that extremists like ISIS are capable of shch atrocities, any more than we are in any doubt of your own extremsim in removing information in order to make political/ religious capital out of it.
What excuses do you have for the killing of two demonstrators and the wounding of scores more by troops in Israel - no doubt you have one?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:14 AM

So, Jimmy,

When the UN states something you approve of, you use it as evidence without ant fact-checking..

When they state something you don't approve of, they need to verify there facts before you will believe it.


I certainly hope you will allow the REST of us to apply the rules you have given yourself, and will henceforth accept OUR judgements as being as valid as your own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:17 AM

ENTIRE TEXT of Al Arabiya News article- I do not see what Jimmy has claimed to "KNOW" about this report.



"ISIS orders female genital mutilation in Iraq


A family fleeing the violence in Mosul waits at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Arbil, in Iraq's Kurdistan region, June 11, 2014. (Reuters)
Text size A A A
Staff Writer, Al Arabiya News
Thursday, 24 July 2014
The al-Qaeda-Inspired Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has ordered all girls and women between the ages of 11 and 46 in and around Iraq's northern city of Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation, the United Nations said on Thursday.

"It is a fatwa (or religious edict) of ISIS, we learnt this this morning," said Jacqueline Badcock, the number two U.N. official in Iraq.

The "fatwa" would potentially affect 4 million women and girls, Badcock told reporters in Geneva by videolink from Arbil.

"This is something very new for Iraq, particularly in this area, and is of grave concern and does need to be addressed," she said, according to Reuters.

"This is not the will of Iraqi people, or the women of Iraq in these vulnerable areas covered by the terrorists," she added.

No one was immediately available for comment from Islamic State which has led an offensive through northern and western Iraq.

Also read:

ISIS takes jihadists on honeymoon in Iraq and Syria

Photos surface of ISIS leader Baghdadi's wife

ISIS unveils 'cabinet' lineup: report

How ISIS conquered social media



The world body has "zero contact" with ISIS, but works through tribal leaders in the affected areas, Badcock said. "I can't give you any more details until we have been on the ground to get information," she said of the directive.

FGM, the partial or total removal of external female genitalia, is a tradition practiced widely in many countries and often justified as a means of suppressing a woman's sexual desire to prevent "immoral" behavior.
Female Genital Mutilation in U.S. sparks warnings

Worldwide, more than 130 million girls and women have undergone FGM and more than 700 million women alive today were children when they were married.

The practice of FGM previously occurred only in isolated pockets of Iraq, mainly Kurdistan, according to Badcock.

Mosul city currently has some two million people, more than half of whom are women as there are many female-headed households in the area, she said. Several more million people live in surrounding areas, she added.

"There are reports of rapes of women, of forced marriages," Badcock added.


Last Update: Thursday, 24 July 2014 KSA 17:46 - GMT 14:46"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

But BB, in your area of the country, are people are fired from their jobs for using such terms as "anti-Semite" incorrectly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM

"24 July 2014 KSA 17:46 - GMT 14:46"
Report issued 6.pm this morning
"However, later reports cast doubt on the viral story. As it turns out, the Islamic State's leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi suggested the practice over a year ago, while Badcock herself admitted to having "zero contact" with the extremist group, alluding mainly to rumors heard from tribal leaders in the area."
As the organization tries to ascertain what went on, a number of journalists with contacts in Iraq has shared what they believe to be the reality behind the ghastly rumors.
I am aware of the practice of female genital mutilation, just as I am aware of other religions carrying out such operations, including the circumcision of 8 day old boys because their religion demands it - I deplore them all as barbaric.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

I would not know, GregF.

MOST of us here have agreed to use the EU definition, to avoid falsely accusing anyone.

Since YOU qualify under that definition, there is no problem that I would be using the term incorrectly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM

The Times has the story just 3 hours ago.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4156906.ece


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:07 PM

Jim, your "6pm this morning" report was Russia Today I see.

Irish Times covered it yesterday, and no retraction yet printed.
You chose not to paste in that story as you so often do.

Let us hope the story is still false.
Not much doubt about the destroyed mosques and churches though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:46 PM

"Jim, your "6pm this morning" report was Russia Today I see"
No it wasn't - but it might well have come from there originally - so what
Which a bit of the information given do you actually challenge.
The fact of the age of the document was reported all day yesterday throughout the world, as were the denials of its having been distributed = denied by local people?
"Not much doubt about the destroyed mosques and churches though."
Nor about the half dozen destroyed hospitals, the health centres, the many thousands of homes- not to mention the 800 dead so far.
Which is the greater crime - homes, hospitals, human beings? - a few churches, obviously
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:56 PM

The GREATER CRIME is the thousands killed by ISIS that YOU seem so desperately to ignore, since you cannot blame them on Israel.

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE CALIPHATE-

Your bringing up Israel in all your posts is proof positive of your anti-Semitism as defined by the EU.


When you learn to judge EVERYONE EQUALLY, perhaps you will show some concern for those Muslims being killed by your friends, both in Gaza (HAMAS) and Iraq (ISIS)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:51 AM

"Irish Times covered it yesterday, and no retraction yet printed."
You have obviously scoured the press and failed to come up with anything new in the way of confirmation.
The story did not need to be "pasted in" - you had already put it in and I pointed out the doubt that surrounded it - that doubt was available to you also - you chose to present it as a fact, when it was an unconfirmed statement by a U.N. employee on the basis of dubious evidence.
Your hoping is not true is as sickening as were your crocodile shed for the victims of the Homs snipers, shed at the same time as your proposing that it was o.k. to sell Assad "only a few sniper rifles" (your exact words) and suggesting that he be sold more riot control equipment to keep his dissidents in order "even democracies have a right to keep public order" (also your exact words)   
" anti-Semitism"
Blaming the Jews again 'Brucie the Bombast' - Hitler aint dead, he just posts to Mudcat" as the song should go.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:46 AM

The issue here isn't about discussing Isis and their interpretation of a Caliphate, but the idea of a Caliphate itself.

Most of the cultural, scientific and community development of the past thousand years has been through caliphates. Whilst democracy and holding to account is the predominant form of government and is to be encouraged in my view, a caliphate in itself is not about FGM, oppression of groups of people or adherence to any form of superstition.

Some of our less talented fools here seem to put forward the idea a caliphate is a form of fundamental Islamic rule. Perhaps the idea of a caliphate offends their particular superstition?

The bastardisation of the caliphate form of government is awful, but some here need to distinguish between caliphates and Islamic formed oppression. It's a bit like Israel using superstition of most of its population as an excuse to oppress neighbours and claim land contrary to International law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM

Jim, I agree that a church is just a building.
It is always sad when any ancient building, church or not, is wantonly destroyed.
The destruction of the churches and mosques is also a part of the genocide of the Christian community and the brutal persecution of the Shia that is going on.
The death toll is horrifyingly worse than Gaza, as it is in Syria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

"It is always sad when any ancient building, church or not, is wantonly destroyed."
Far sadder when human beings are massacred - you have condoned and supported that and are still doing so.
"genocide of the Christian community"
You have supported the ethnic cleansing of itinerants and are suprting the genocide tat is going on in Gaza at present.
Taking sides in which genocide to support and which to oppose - is that a 'Christian ethic?'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM

Some of our less talented fools here seem to put forward the idea a caliphate is a form of fundamental Islamic rule.

This caliphate unashamedly is Musket.

Far sadder when human beings are massacred - you have condoned and supported that and are still doing so.
It is sadder, and it is a lie that I have condoned such things.

You have supported the ethnic cleansing of itinerants


Another lie. Why do you always make up shit about me?

and are suprting the genocide tat is going on in Gaza at present.


There is no genocide in Gaza.
Find me anyone else but you and your mates who make such a moronic claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:28 AM

"There is no genocide in Gaza."
How many deaths of one particular group of people does it have to be to count as gencocide?
Noam Chomski - that well known "Anti-Semite" has used the term, as have numerous other Jews, in reference to Israeli policy
Chomski also refers to Israeli policy as ethnic cleansing
Jim Carroll

Statement from someone other than "me and my mates"

Israel's Crimes against Palestinians: War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity, Genocide
by Francis A. Boyle

(The author served as Legal Adviser to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East peace Negotiations from 1991 to 1993. The viewpoints expressed here are his own.)

The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation
Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: "Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;..." Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are "protected persons" within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.
There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.
So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian People are defending Themselves and their Land and their Homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.

The U.N. Human Rights Commission
Indeed, it is far more serious than that. On 19 October 2000 a Special Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a Resolution set forth in U.N. Document E/CN.4/S-5/L.2/Rev. 1, "Condemning the provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians." The U.N. Human Rights Commission then said it was "[g]ravely concerned" about several different types of atrocities inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinian People, which it denominated "war crimes, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law and crimes against humanity."
In operative paragraph 1 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: "Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity;..." And in paragraph 5 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission: "Also affirms that the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians and children by the Israeli occupying authorities constitutes a flagrant and grave violation of the right to life and also constitutes a crime against humanity;..." Article 68 of the United Nations Charter had expressly required the U.N.'s Economic and Social Council to "set up" this Commission "for the promotion of human rights."

Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians
We all have a general idea of what a war crime is, so I am not going to elaborate upon that term here. But there are different degrees of heinousness for war crimes. In particular are the more serious war crimes denominated "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Since the start of the Al Aqsa Intifada, the world has seen those inflicted every day by Israel against the Palestinian People living in occupied Palestine: e.g., willful killing of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army and Israel's illegal paramilitary settlers. These Israeli "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention mandate universal prosecution for their perpetrators, whether military or civilian, as well as prosecution for their commanders, whether military or civilian, including Israel's political leaders.

Israel's Crimes Against Humanity against Palestinians
But I want to focus for a moment on Israel's "crime against humanity" against the Palestinian People -- as determined by the U.N. Human Rights Commission itself, set up pursuant to the requirements of the United Nations Charter. What is a "crime against humanity"? This concept goes all the way back to the Nuremberg Charter of 1945 for the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. And in the Nuremberg Charter of 1945, drafted by the United States Government, there was created and inserted a new type of international crime specifically intended to deal with the Nazi persecution of the Jewish People.
The paradigmatic example of a "crime against humanity" is what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People. This is where the concept of crime against humanity came from. And this is what the U.N. Human Rights Commission determined that Israel is currently doing to the Palestinian People: Crimes against humanity. Legally, just like what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews.

The Precursor to Genocide
Moreover, a crime against humanity is the direct historical and legal precursor to the international crime of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The theory here was that what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People required a special international treaty that would codify and universalize the Nuremberg concept of "crime against humanity." And that treaty ultimately became the 1948 Genocide Convention.
In fairness, you will note that the U.N. Human Rights Commission did not go so far as to condemn Israel for committing genocide against the Palestinian People. But it has condemned Israel for committing crimes against humanity, which is the direct precursor to genocide. And I submit that if something is not done quite soon by the American People and the International Community to stop Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian People, it could very well degenerate into genocide, if Israel is not there already. And in this regard, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is what international lawyers call a genocidaire--one who has already committed genocide in the past.

Mr. Francis A. Boyle is a Professor in International Law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM

In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), published a working definition of antisemitism,
.,,.,.

The above, which I have cited before, comes from Wikipedia, where this definition can be found. It is generally taken to be a reasonable statement of the case as to what, by agreement, constitutes antisemitism; and I think it is incontrovertible that there are several repetitive posters on this forum, and on this thread, who demonstrably fall foul of it. If they then feel aggrieved at being denounced as 'antisemitic' by Bruce, or by Bobad, (or by me for that matter; tho I have rather given up on contributing to threads like this, becoz, as I have mentioned before, heads against brick walls or pulling out of beard can be more constructive & satisfying), then they will do better to take the matter up with the Fundamental Rights Agency named above, than to keep arguing that we are making false accusations against them as some sort of unworthy defensive measure.

I say again, in the Words of Shaw's character: THEY ARE ANTISEMITIC [WITHIN DEFINITION CITED ABOVE]; THEY THINK THEY AREN'T, BUT THEY ARE.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM

Who are you quoting when you say "ethnic cleansing of itinerants?"

Its just that it reads as if I said that?

If I did, I am more astute than I thought. That said, all my complaining over Keith's attitude is valid and based entirely on his posts. I wish to debate, hence I am on these threads in the first place. It isn't possible when people post outrageous views then attack anybody who questions them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM

Stop hiding behind bits of paper Mike
The logic of your argument is that if Israel set up gas chambers and herded the Palestinian people into them it would be "Anti-Semitic" to compare them to the Nazis - give us a break!
Let Israel be judged by its actions, not by committee rules.
I have little doubt that anybody dreamed that Israel would ever sink to the depths they now have - I certainly didn't.
Why not address the criticisms Einstein, Chomski, and the Mossad people made rather than creating no-go areas in Israel's defence - or do you, as Booboo, consider them all Antisemitic?
A little Canutish to try and hold back the inevitable comparison.
"ethnic cleansing of itinerants?"
Can't remember exactly who said it, but it came up in relation to the Prawer plan and its two attempts to move Beduoins onto a toxic rubbish site
A quick shuufti pulls up these
Jim Caroll
GLOBAL RESEARCH

SIR BOB RUSSELL



Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate