A worrying circular from a folk club

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Fergie
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

GUEST. If you are a member of Mudcat then please sign in. If you are not a member please signup. Otherwise go someplace else where you can flame away to your heart content.

Goodbye

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Tradsinger
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:15 PM

Without wishing to prolong the topic longer, I just want to say one thing. There seems to be a trend in humanity to look down on certain groups of people different from your group. These might be gypsies, or indeed Jews, Muslims or Christians. They might be immigrants or foreigners, or even a different colour from you. So you start to compile anecdotes of their bad/unsociable/ unacceptable behaviour, as they are somehow inferior to you, not conforming to your norms. This then seems to justify your treating them poorly, after all they are only gypsies....Jews....Romanians... etc.

All people should be treated equally and fairly, that's all I say.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:08 PM

I too support Jim's case. As I have said from the outset. However I dotake objection when it is suggested that I am racist, especially by someone who by his own comments on previous a thread is "guilty" of racism himself. I refer to his comment on 11 January 2013 AT 04.04am when he stated(and I quote)"I know that rubbish is only part of the traveller problem". My last post on that subject (Thread Title 'No travellers' common UK sign) was on the same day at 02.23pm. It was an observation that Jim was as guilty, as many of, are of racism without meaning to be. I do not doubt his care of, and concern for, the travelling community but I do strongly object when he accuses me of racism.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM

I'd support Jim Carroll's case

I also support Jim on this matter and I have sent him a PM explaining why I posted as I did at 13 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Fergie
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:42 AM

I'd support Jim Carroll's case. Travellers rarely get an even break in the mainstream media. And it is my experience that you don't have to probe to far into the attitude of many people who profess themselves to be tolerant, liberal and progressive to find deep-down racist opinions.

Why does Mudcat tolerate anonymous GUEST posters to indulge in trolling, windup and baiting exercises? Please Mudcat make a stipulation backed by a software sentinel, that ensures that non-members are allowed to post once and once only to a post. That alone would go a long way to bringing a lot of this abuse of these threads to an end.

Fergus

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM

Sorry Vic - have said allI have to say on this matter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

Could I suggest that you two get one another's email addresses and carry on you your nit-picking semantics using that method? You may find your interchanges - 21 posts of them so far - fascinating, but I can assure you that there are others of us who find them less than compelling.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM

What can I say but ........... astonishing arrogance

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM

"truly shocking" - "justice" meted out to the Travelling community", two unconnected statements, both go without saying and unless they are addressed to specific issues, pretty meaningless in the light of this discussion.
My apology was a qualified one and will remain so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Jim, I have stated, twice, that the McNally case was "truly shocking" I have stated that I support your argument regarding the "justice" meted out to the Travelling community. I have stated it is not acceptable. What more can I say to convince you that I believe Travellers are, on many occasions, badly treated by the justice system. I cannot comprehend how you could find my attitude to these cases ambiguous.

Finally Thank you for the apology.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

Last post seems to have gone missing
"I have supported your argument that the travellers were not given the justice"
Throughout these you have cast doubt on whether these cases are connected in any way to the extreme prejudice that exists against Travellers here, and more-or-less everywhere else
" similar evasions of justice have occurred in each group, both settled and travellers"
That, as far as I can see, continues to be your case.
My accusation was a general one aimed at those who either support that prejudice or refuse to recognise its existence.
If I worded my statement as to leave the impression that it included you, of course I apologise; I was then and remain unclear on your own view on these particular cases.
Whenever these arguments arise I'm always reminded of Jeannie Robertson's wry comment that she now had an O.B.E. to hang on her wall, but she or her family still couldn't get served in many of her country's pubs or shops.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:24 AM

Jim, Throughout my posts I have supported your argument that the travellers were not given the justice that we should all be able to expect, irrespective of our part in society. Yet you have again made the allegation that I by "ignoring or denying the facts of what is happening to them makes you part of the 'cleansing' process" Again I say you should have the decency to make an apology without obfuscation.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM

Tell you what
You have cast doubt throughout this argument that either of these cases had anything to do with the victims being Travellers
It was not my intention to specify you as being a racist in regard to Travellers, but I'm happy to apologise if you are prepared to say that, in the light of the overall evidence, it probably was
If not, I think my point stands that "Ignoring and denying the facts of what is happening to them makes you part of that 'cleansing' process."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM

"Ignoring or denying the facts of what is happening to them makes YOU part of that 'cleansing' process" That to me looks exactly like an accusation of racism on my part. I object most strongly. I would expect an apology, not an attempt to avoid such with prevarication.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM

"However you still infer that I am racist"
And i point out that my accusation was a general one - not aimed at you specifically - which part of that do you not understand?
"My "you" was generally aimed and not at you specifically."
No apology needed - just a reiteration of my explanation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

Which part of my agreement with you do you not understand. I have stated quite clearly, in words that most people would comprehend, that the examples you gave are not acceptable. I have also stated that justice needs to be equitable to all in society. However you still infer that I am racist. I object most strongly to your assertion and would expect an apology from most people. Whether such would be coming from yourself is doubtful.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 05:58 AM

"However justice has to be equal for all of society"
Yes it has, and these examples and the general situation show it is not the case with Travellers
Ward was killed when a farmer administered a coup de gráce while he was crawling away wounded - the defence was that the farmer was in fear of his safety - he was acquitted.
The policeman's son was tried for manslaughter after it had been established that he walked home, armed himself with a knife and returned to settle a shouting argument.
I the prevailing atmosphere towards Travellers here, the conclusion is that both results were due to the victims in each case being Travellers - these are not isolated incidents, but regular occurrences which I have been aware of throughout the the forty years I have been associated with Travellers - it is pretty well accepted here that this is the case.
I don't know who you are, so I don't know if we have argued on those subject before, but I have argued with others proffering the same arguments.
My "you" was generally aimed and not at you specifically.
I approach these arguments with some degree of experience of the prejudice that is and has always been adopted to Travellers.
I followed both of these cases with some interest at the time they happened and was actually involved in the incident of the family being driven out.
Probably the most interesting aspect of all of them, the verdicts of the court case being a foregone conclusion, were the phone-in discussions that took place afterwards - the general wave of hatred towards Travellers was chilling.
Failing to take these incidents out of the context surround them is to miss the point.
I repeat - the verdicts in both of them would have been very different if the victims had not been Travellers, especially taking into consideration the proximity of both of them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:48 AM

Please do not twist my words, which experience tells me you are apt to do when someone puts another side to a discussion.

I am neither denying or ignoring the facts of anything. I clearly stated what had happened in the cases you mentioned was not acceptable. Justice abjectly failed the travellers on those, and probably many other, occasions

However justice has to be equal for all of society not just one section that you have decided to champion.

Finally do not accuse me of racism merely because I question your assessment of any given situation. That is unacceptable.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM

Come off it - justice has always weighed against Travellers - at the present time by the local popul;ation as well as the police and judiciary.
Some Christmases ago, a Travelling family here were burned out of their home by an accidental caravan fire (these fires are not always accidental).
Totally out of character, our Council agreed to house them over the holiday period in an empty house.
Local people set up a banner carrying picket outside their home over several days, demanding their removal and chanting "Travellers out, residents in".
The couple and their seven children were going to brazen it out due to the extremely cold weather, until the woman was stopped while shopping in town and told that if they didn't make themselves scarce they would be needing the services of the fire department again.
They spent their Christmas in a combination of a borrowed touring caravan, a small van and a tent made from a canvas sheet down at the local beach car park.
Travellers are in the process of being ethnically cleansed in these islands; within a decade or so they will have disappeared altogether from our roads if the process isn't quickly reversed - if it is not already too late.
Ignoring and denying the facts of what is happening to them makes you part of that 'cleansing' process.
We've been through this sort of discussion so many times before.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:49 AM

Like I said Jim, Truly shocking but similar evasions of justice have occurred in each group, both settled and travellers. Not just on one side or the other. If you want to see justice done on behalf on the Traveller (which no-one should object to) you have to see justice done on behalf of the remainder of the population.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM

You and everybody else knows damn well that if it had been settled people involved in these incidents and not Travellers, both of the culprits would have been banged up for their crimes.
As it was their victims "got what was coming to them" on both occasions!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM

Hi Jim, Truly shocking, however I would think similar evasions of justice have occurred in each group, both settled and travellers.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM

The killing was an execution pure and simple.
Ward was shot while fleeing from the premises, he had been wounded and severely beaten - totally incapacitated.
McNally went into the house, reloaded his gun, came out and shot him in cold blood.
Had his victim been anybody other than a Traveller, McNally would have been banged up for murder.
A not unsimilar case happened around the same time in our Market town of Ennis.
Two groups of youths, travellers and settled lads, got into a shouting match (no more than that) on the main street.
One of the settled lads went home, got a knife, returned to the scene and stabbed an 18 year old Traveller lad to death - no dispute of any of this.
The lad was tried for manslaughter and received piddling sentence considering the crime
The killer was a policeman's son
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:57 PM

Jim, I have read further on Wikipedia (not the best source I realise)and can understand the valid argument for a conviction. I also realise that McNally probably thought he could not rely on the Garda for realistic support and thought to take the law into his own hands.
I can have a degree of sympathy for his position and sadly given a similar situation may have even reacted violently myself.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:35 PM

Fair enough Jim, I can see where you are coming from. I would like to see the remainder of the trial. From that report it would seem like a total miscarriage of justice.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: meself
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM

Whoops! Sorry, I assumed it was that other case that was the subject of some interest here (Mudcat) awhile back.

(As to the quote - a lot of crossed wires here I'm not going to try to untangle.)

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

"Actually, Jim, your quote was from my post "
This was the case I was referring to.
McNally was the farmer, John Ward was his victim.
Jim Carroll

Traveller murder

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: meself
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:32 AM

Actually, Jim, your quote was from my post - not that it really matters.

******************

GUEST:

" ... Tony Martin, the farmer, who was jailed for shooting dead a burglar who broke into his isolated home in Norfolk in 1999."

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

Jim,

At the risk of being pedantic, could you name the case involved and the year.

Thanks

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:50 AM

"Jim - I believe you missed the irony in my post of 10 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM ..."
meself
Didn't mis the point - missed the posting altogether - am in the middle of a week-long music event and snatching a peep into this when I can.
Take your point entirely
The attitude towards Travellers in Ireland is now being referred to openly as 'ethnic cleansing' in the press and during radio phone-ins.
In Britain, Travellers have a degree of protection from harassment and prejudice under the law, though it has been seriously undermined by all Governments, from and including John Major's.
Here in Ireland, they have no such protection; prejudice right though Irish society and includes the police, judiciary and Government bodies.
A few years ago, a Traveller caught trespassing was killed by a farmer (shot, beaten with a stick whilst lying wounded, then, after the farmer went indoors to reload his gun, dispatched by a final shot to the head)
At the trial, the farmer fully expected to be jailed for his crime, he said later he had made arrangements to cover his inevitable sentencing.
He was acquitted - you can't say it clearer than that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: selby
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:03 PM

What i find interesting is how we immediately fall into camps the for,s and the against,s what we seem to forget is like every race and creed there are good and bad. Experience tells what happened in the past then dictates the future.I live in a rural area and had a work mate who was the best mate a man could have BUT put a pint down his neck instant nut case and you did not want to be in his company
Keith

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Tradsinger
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:44 PM

I'm sorry, but the organiser's explanation still does not wash with me. Does he mean that the pub would close for any big funeral, or for any large sporting event or street carnival etc in the area, for example, or is he specifically singling out gypsy funerals? Would he refer to other groups as "that lot"?

If the police had specific information that there would be trouble, then so be it, but "trouble is anticipated" sounds like paranoia to me.

It's a big event. So, it's up to the police to manage it, like they would any other big event.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: meself
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM

Jim - I believe you missed the irony in my post of 10 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM ....

************************************

I'm wondering where all those Mudcatters are who declare themselves such vigorous enemies of racism and bigotry ... ?

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:32 AM

I believe that I am a fair-minded person so I must say that I was encouraged by the subsequent message from the organiser which includes these statements -

"My e-mail was sent in haste to try to prevent our members travelling unnecessarily and reading it again this morning I can see that some of it was badly worded." and elsewhere "I had no intention of maligning gypsies in general." and again " I believe that all people should be treated equally regardless of race, religion, orientation, disability, age etc., and I believe that I do treat people so." Well, good, that's a great improvement on the first circular.

He even has the grace to say that the slow pace of the cortege and the long traffic delay was being directed by the police though he did not realise it at the time

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM

"As with many events I suspect the police look at evidence of previous behaviour"
You mean if a rowdy group of footballers made a nuisance of themselves, then all football supporters would be automatically banned - sorry John - doesn't happen.
Travellers we knew in London in the 70s and 80s campaigned to have 'no Travellers served', which were common in those days, removed from pubs - the campaign was largely successful in having them made illegal, but nowadays the discrimination exists in different forms, the end result being the same.
Automatically assuming that all Travellers are troublemakers is every bit as racist as claiming that all black men have big willies and lust after white women.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

I used to live near the New Forest , a traditional home for Gypsies ,as we were wont to call them ( ......".play with the Roma in the wood " doesn't quite have the same ring to it ); I was interested in their historical "stewardship" of the Forest , and even had a namesake , "Brusher" Mills , who had lived in a woodpile,and caught adders which he sold to medical researchers to fund his far from moderate alcohol consumption ! I also learned of their attachment ,if that's the right word ,to the Gorse / Furze bushes, the dead wood of which really IS a good fuel!
             But then,whilst working as the Stage Door Keeper at The REgent Centre in Christchurch, I was rudely surprised to witness the APPALLING and lawless behaviour of a whole convoy of Irish "travellers" who invaded the theatre car-park in their unlicensed,untaxed vehicles, let their children defaecate and urinate opely on the ground,and went round testing the fuel-tank cap on every vehicle and dismantling the boundary fence ! The police didn't want to know. I complained to my employer (Christchurch Council ) who threatened me with disciplinary action if I said ONE WORD against the "travellers" who , I quote ,were " an ethnic minority group with their own culture and language " -----I pointed out that I, too, was a member of such a group ( The English !!) which didn't go down too well ! But as for being "Gypsies",these dreadful Irish people bore no resemblance at all .Eventually they left and set up shop in .....guess where ?? YES !! The Council Office Car Park ; HOORAY I cried !!!

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: BobKnight
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM

My post was intended to point out that not all travelling people are the same. Travellers are not gypsies and vice versa, although they share a nomadic, but dying lifestyle.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: johncharles
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:47 AM

I doubt that the police would concede they were picking on a cultural minority. As with many events I suspect the police look at evidence of previous behaviour and make a risk assessment on the strength of this evidence. A classic example of this will be the championship football match between Leeds and Milwall. I have no doubt restrictions will be in force, on the basis of previous behaviour.
If police were not to give advice and trouble occurred no doubt they would be pilloried in the press for neglecting public safety.
john

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:28 AM

"Don't make the mistake of thinking "Travellers," are gypsies, and please don't confuse REAL Travellers, with New Age Travellers of the late sixties, seventies."
Not that it matters, even if it were true - they are all human beings and are being discriminated against.
The supposed difference between Traveller groups have long been used to scapegoat 'not-real' Travellers.
Changes of life style due to urbanization, abandonment of old customs, intermarriage.... and a host of other reasons, have made the 'difference' between all those on the road indistinguishable to the point of non-existence.   
Even 'real Gypsies' have been persecuted because they fail to live up to the romanticised George Borrow image of what Gypsies are supposed to be and how they should live and look.
"No, he doesn't sound racist "
I have been to dozens of Traveller weddings, funerals and christenings and have never at any time seen any more trouble than you might expect on a boisterous stag night or hen party.
The fact that Travellers are picked out for discrimination makes this exactly what it is, a racist attack on a cultural minority.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM

Umm, yes perhaps it does have a racist tint about it. On the other hand there is good reason why most pubs (certainly in my area Wolverhampton)display signs saying 'NO GYPSIES' The reason is there are a few Gypsy camps in the area and several pubs lost their licences due to Gypsy Violence. A fol club I was a member of had Gypsis regularly come in, in just 3 3weeks they caused so much trouble it had to close. Finally please don't equate Irish people with Gypsies/Romanies. I am Irish, and they are much LESS tolerated back home, their accents are I assure you the only Irish thing about them. This is not a racist rant against them, it's just some facts based on persnal experience. Gypsies seem to have an inherent problem with alcohol, the medical profession would bear that out and police do frequently warn pubs about Gypsy events

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM

"From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM

I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known,

I have, of course, been in contact with him and he with me."
"why, of course",are we supposed to be mind readers.
Vic, in my opinion contacting the organiser is the ONLY correct thing to do

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: meself
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:53 AM

No, he doesn't sound racist - he just sounds pee'd off at a certain racial/cultural minority.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: vectis
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:52 PM

I used to work in a town where the school had a large (very large) number of Romany, Irish traveller and Roma children from the locality. Whenever there was a funeral for any of these groups the town ground to a standstill because of the huge numbers that would turn out to said funeral.
If staff wanted to get home they had to go out of the other end of town. I seem to remember that the schools and pubs were all notified (not warned) of the time and place of the funerals so that those who wanted to close could do so.
Nearer London I can imagine that traffic chaos would ensue, people trying to get places would be delayed and get frustrated and a few hotheads could easily start an affray which opportunists could quickly inflame into real trouble.
Adding alcohol into the mix just makes the likelihood of trouble greater.
Folk organiser sounds pee'd off rather than racist in this instance.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:16 PM

New Age travellers are just as real as any other human beings, and they are NOT a legitimate target for persecution just because they fail to be Gypsies or Scottish Highland travellers.

"Go harass that other lot instead" isn't even going to work as a strategy for defending Gypsies' rights.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: BobKnight
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:57 PM

Don't make the mistake of thinking "travellers," are gypsies, and please don't confuse REAL travellers, with New Age Travellers of the late sixties, seventies. The name, "Gypsy/Travellers" is merely a term of convenience for the authorites, a pigoen hole.

Recent programmes on TV, referring to gypsy this and gypsy that are invariably about Irish travellers, with not a gypsy in sight, yet another term of convenience for the ignorant.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:44 PM

Nothing new then:
Surrey 19/11/2009 "Many landlords said they decided to close the pubs saying they acted on advice given to them by Surrey Police.
Keith Huddlestone, the manager of The Running Horse, in Bridge Street, Leatherhead, claims he had a warning from police about the funeral."
Henley 16/12/13
Conflicting reports:
The pub, which normally opens at 11am, stayed closed until 4.30pm when the travellers had gone.
Manager Joanne Burton said: "The decision to close was just a precaution because in the past we have had a little bit of trouble with travellers.
"The police and the council let us know what was happening but it was our choice whether or not to open
The Flowing Spring in Playhatch also closed amid fears the travellers might look for another pub to visit.
Nick Willson, who owns the pub with his wife Hazel Lucas, said: "The information we got from police and pubs in Caversham was that there would be about 1,000 travellers and it would be advisable to close.
Warrington 14/1/13"The road will be closed from King Edward Street to Padgate lane. Access will be maintained for residents and local businesses during this time although pubs have been told to close"

It seems sometimes pubs are told to close, sometimes they are advised to, and sometimes they are left with the choice.
Are the police abrogating their responsibility? Either there will be no trouble (pubs can stay open), or there is a small chance of trouble (police should handle it), or police believe that trouble is unavoidable, and should deal with it as they would any other event (Football match, protest rally) where they are expecting problems.

What is the betting that the police/licensing authority's advice to these pubs is rarely in writing, so that they cannot be effectively quoted.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM

I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known,

I have, of course, been in contact with him and he with me.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

Apologises Jack, I've realised my contribution sounds patronising. Sorry no offence meant.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM

Wonderful idea Jack ...............except the club shut on the day of the funeral .....................Duh!!

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM

It would be a constructive gesture if a delegation from the folk club went to the funeral to dissociate themselves from the local authority's ruling. They might also offer to sing requests.