BS: Church joins real world

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:30 PM

Keith said

"I quoted our census data.
There is no reason why anyone would deny their atheism on a UK census return"

Think! Thousands of people who filled in the form said they belonged to the Jedi Knight religion!

Also, I know of a number of people - in my circle of friends - who filled the form in with their spouses - spouses who belong to religious organisations - and put themselves down as Christians for their partners "peace of mind"!

Also - as previously stated - being an atheist could most certainly work against a person in various employment situations, and one can't be sure that census info won't find its way into the open market/

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

I cant prove it, of course, but I reckon ,that even though evolutionism is currently the ruling paradigm, that most people have got more sense than to believe that there was absolutely nothing, and then out of nothing, and via no one there was something.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:39 PM

I quoted our census data.
There is no reason why anyone would deny their atheism on a UK census return.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:16 PM

Well, of course, the real percentage of atheists is without doubt is a lot higher than any "official" figures will show.
For example, I believe that no elected politician in the House of Representatives ( or whatever it is called) claims to be an atheist!
That can't be right!
Based on the percentage of atheist in the USA as a whole, there must be many atheists among that body of politicians.
And, that situation will be repeated over and over again in the business sector, and, indeed, in all walks of life!
Would it wise- in relation to career advancement/opportunities, for example, for a public school teacher to state that he/she is an atheist?
Probably not!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:02 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

An usual methodology for your survey, but if you used a large and representative sample of windows I expect your results will confirm the professional polls.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM

Hang on, I'll just hang my head out of the window.

"Oy, world! How many of you believe in the old bloke with the white beard who doesn't give a fuck about you after all?"

Hang on Keith. You yourself are living proof that not everybody is rational, sophisticated and able to think for themselves. Give it time, someone might answer.

"Not you vicar! You don't count. You are paid to make others believe what you are taught otherwise in vicar school!"

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:57 AM

If you believe in God you are not an atheist, whether you go to church or not.
Actual atheists are still a small minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Keith forgets that he calls anybody without any religious baggage an atheist in earlier threads. Now he seems to be saying otherwise.

Perhaps if he read what he cuts and pastes before putting it forward as his own, he might stop making an arse of himself.

Lack of religion is growing but it has not been a minority post war. Church attendances dropped off dramatically after the war, and new found freedoms, lack of cap doffing and the slow but sure dropping of social class as an overt barrier meant the oppressive nature of churches went west at the same time. Whether or not someone exercises their right to have a religious faith is neither here nor there. Having the right to exert the aims on a public that ignores it is another thing entirely. We are, as we have been for hundreds of years in some parts, a multi faith society in The UK. The idea of one having political influence on the basis of dodgy christian counting is not the answer. In some ways of counting, I would be classed as Christian. Convenient eh?

Joe, the bit about coveting your neighbour's ass. Always a tricky one.... At least as I was neither religious nor married at the time, I enjoyed breaking it.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:57 AM

Tunesmith if you are English or American - alas you have been so represented - Dubya or Bliar. Oh dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

Well, if your God commanded you to kill a family member, would you?
Of course, God probably would ask this of you directly, but rather he would inspire you to do his bidding?
In your commandments, God comes before everything!
Before family, friends, country etc.
Therefore, when push comes to shove, you are bound to abandon family, friends etc and follow the will of God.
Therefore, if you were a politician your first allegiance will always be to God, and not to your country or those who elected you.
I wouldn't want to be
represented by a politician with that mind set!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:33 AM

Should have said, Don IS a believer.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:31 AM

"The number of Christians in England and Wales fell by more than four million in the last decade, the 2011 census has suggested, while the number of people identifying as atheists increased by six million over the same period.

The data from the Office for National Statistics showed there were 33.2million Christians last year, compared to 37.3million in 2001.

Christianity declines in census as atheism rises
Despite the figures, the Archbishop of Canterbury said the Church of England was not 'fading' (Picture: Getty)
The number of people declaring themselves to be atheists rose by more than six million to 14.1million meanwhile."

Atheists are a small minority, albeit a growing one.
Non-religious believers are not atheists.
Don T (is he OK?) for instance was a believer but would have nothing to do with churches or any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:07 AM

I guess, Tunesmith, that I do have to concede that religious people do follow the "commandments," as opposed to "commands." But is there something in those commandments that's particularly objectionable, or that would make a religious person less able to perform equitably in political office?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:50 AM

Akenaton spoke of an "equalities" minister but was referring to the equalities minister.

In the same way as he uses the term gay "marriage" when referring to gay marriage.

Keith went on to support his term of reference.

Rather pathetic.

For everybody who tries to justify their belief by insisting not having any is in itself a faith position, I might point out that for many people, religion, lack of religion, faith, scientific discovery and contemplation are all something others get excited about.

It must be difficult for the Mudcat congregation to think that most people go through life without such convictions but they do. Delusion can be all consuming. Even for boutique Christians.

I'm not minded to cut and paste in these discussions as our more shallow members do, I tend to give my view without having to nervously justify it with selective quotes from others (Eyup Keith!) but this from the Office of National Statistics is a good starting point.

In a poll conducted by YouGov in March 2011 on behalf of the BHA, when asked the census question 'What is your religion?', 61% of people in England and Wales ticked a religious box (53.48% Christian and 7.22% other) while 39% ticked 'No religion'.

When the same sample was asked the follow-up question 'Are you religious?', only 29% of the same people said 'Yes' while 65% said 'No', meaning over half of those whom the census would count as having a religion said they were not religious.

You see, it's a bit like parishes and parish churches. Average parish size is over 6,000 and average church attendance is less than 30.

Our local church insists on doing christenings as part of normal services to boost flagging numbers. If they had courage of conviction they'd count people for whom their club is relevant rather than those who partake if a family tradition once in a while. Presumably at funerals they count the people laid in coffins...

I went to a Sikh temple a few months ago for an equivalent of a christening and got talking to a man there when I said the place was busy. Yes, he said, but when the kitchens were being refurbished so the free meal was out of action, attendance was down to a quarter of what you see. He also said it was estimated that only 15% of Sikhs in the city attended either temple.

I reckon 15% is rather high. Churches would stop being turned into bingo halls if Jesus was half as popular.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:08 AM

Tunesmith, am I correct in thinking that you do not believe there's a God?

And yet you say that for religious people, God's commands come first.

But if there is no God, how can there be any commands for you to worry about?

I think that God gave me common sense so I can figure things out for myself, so that's what I do - without relying on commands from anyone. Even if there is no God, I still have the common sense, so I've got all the bases covered. I think for myself.

I suggest you try the same.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:42 AM

Joe, your reply is load of meaningless rubbish!
Which, in turn is not surprising as it consists of an attempt to justify a load of meaningless rubbish!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 05:03 PM

Tunesmith says: Again, I will state that it is crazy to allow anyone with religious affiliations to hold any political power, because, when push comes shove, God's commands comes first!

Again I will say, you certainly have a distorted view of the reality of religious faith. You seem to be able only to understand things literally, and to have no capacity for abstract thinking, or symbolism, or myth. You're like an atheist mirror of fundamentalist Christians or Muslims.

Quite scary, really.

---

SRS says, in a far more tolerant manner: Atheists' worldview is open and enquiring, not bound by the paternalistic overlord. Not requiring a deity to live a moral life, and not requiring approval or acceptance from your religious leader in order to build sound secular communities and governments.

Joe Offer hopes that the same can be said for religious people who have a healthy perspective.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM

Ian, what particular part of the following sentence do you not understand?

"Nicky Morgan: Education Secretary voted against same-sex marriage and for restricted abortion access. Ms Morgan is also Minister for Women and EQUALITIES!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM

Gosh, it must be handy to be able to read.

"Equalities Minister" and "Minister for Equalities" are different expressions.

IMHO the view as to what "atheism" is is best served by saying not that it means a position that god can be proven not to exist (proving a negative - not the thinking pathway), but that he (she or it) cannot be proven to exist so the most sensible position is to say that one does not believe that he (she or it) exists until it is so demonstrated.

It may go further to say that the belief that a god exists is irrational.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

Pete states and restates daft in my opinion for anyone to say that atheists don't have a faith position. of course there is no god involved in their worldview, but it is a faith position anyway. they have faith, since , despite the observations of observable science , they believe that everything came from nothing via no one, and furthermore they have faith [or maybe desperation !] that science will one day account for such miracles without a miracle maker.

Pete you're using your own loaded words in a definition that has no requirement of things like "faith" and "miracles" and "miracle maker." It doesn't work that way. Atheists' worldview is open and enquiring, not bound by the paternalistic overlord. Not requiring a deity to live a moral life, and not requiring approval or acceptance from your religious leader in order to build sound secular communities and governments. Understanding that human agency is what it comes down to, without reference to hide-bound and in the last few decades, severely mis-read doctrine. You don't even know how to read your own religious text as an allegorical work, not a literal example.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:14 PM

pete from seven stars link is playing with semantics!
Having a "Faith", with a capital letter, if you like, relates to a person who believes in some sort of supreme intelligent force; a force which - in Christian, Islam and Judaism traditions, also has the ability to know the deeds and inner-most thoughts of all humans ( yes, it is crazy, isn't it?).
And, their main reason for believing this is - wait for it - because someone in the past said that this supreme being - or one of his agents - visited them and passed on all the relevent info pertaining to how humans conduct themselves on Earth;
Yes, I know it's crazy, but that's what they believe!
Now, this "faith", that pete says atheists possess, is in fact just common sense based on science and a enquiring mind that can't find the slightest evidence for the existence of the God the various religious groups.
All the real evidence points to religion being created by ignorant, primitive man to explain the world around him; in other words, ancient mumbo-jumbo.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 01:30 PM

it is absolutely daft in my opinion for anyone to say that atheists don't have a faith position. of course there is no god involved in their worldview, but it is a faith position anyway. they have faith, since , despite the observations of observable science , they believe that everything came from nothing via no one, and furthermore they have faith [or maybe desperation !] that science will one day account for such miracles without a miracle maker.
the "against God" definition is rather apt in many cases. the hateful, foul and aggressive lanquage used by the resident atheists here, would end them up in court if it was used against homosexuals ,imo.
the idea that Jesus may not have existed seems to me a very extreme position that discounts all the evidence. of course, based on the pre-conception that only scientifically attested phenomena is allowed [unless its origins of course !] most skeptics, I suspect, claim that the early Christians exaggerated his power and person.
as usual, there is the charge that Christianity is dangerous, but I should like to see the reasoning that evidences believers in Christ as being any more dangerous than atheists.
mind you, the message of sin, judgment, or salvation by Christ may well be dangerous to the atheist faith position !.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 12:11 PM

Contrary to what Akenaton wrote, The UK does not have an "equalities" minister.

Yes it does Musket.
Akeneaton was right, and you are (as usual) ignorant and wrong.

Minister for Equalities - GOV.UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/minister-for-equality

The Minister for Equalities has overall responsibility for policy on sexual orientation and transgender equality and is responsible for cross-government equality ..

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM

Again, I will state that it is crazy to allow anyone with religious affiliations to hold any political power, because, when push comes shove, God's commands comes first! ( or rather what some primitive person wrote down what he thought God's commands would be).
If it wasn't such very dangerous stuff, I want to laugh out loud!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:36 AM

OK. I repeat.

Contrary to what Akenaton wrote, The UK does not have an "equalities" minister.

Stop lying, the fucking pair of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM

News > UK > UK Politics...The Independent.
Tuesday 15 July 2014

The Prime Minister's announcement that Nicky Morgan has been promoted to the role of Education Secretary has been met with mixed reactions after it emerged she voted against legalising same-sex marriage.
Nicky Morgan: Education Secretary voted against same-sex marriage and for restricted abortion access. Ms Morgan is also Minister for Women and EQUALITIES!!! - but Nick Boles has been appointed to implement the same-sex marriage legislation

Oxford University graduate Ms Morgan worked as a corporate solicitor until her election as an MP for Loughborough in 2010, before her rapid ascension to the position of Minister for Women in April this year.

Her post now includes the added responsibility of equalities to her previous brief as minister for women. Mr Cameron has placed Nick Boles in charge of implementing the same sex marriage legislation.

Having a second minster comes after Ms Morgan, a trustee of the Conservative Christian Fellowship, said she voted against same-sex

Oxford University graduate Ms Morgan worked as a corporate solicitor until her election as an MP for Loughborough in 2010, before her rapid ascension to the position of Minister for Women in April this year.

Her post now includes the added responsibility of equalities to her previous brief as minister for women. Mr Cameron has placed Nick Boles in charge of implementing the same sex marriage legislation.

Having a second minster comes after Ms Morgan, a trustee of the Conservative Christian Fellowship, said she voted against same-sex marriage in 2013 on the basis that she could not reconcile it with her religion.

When asked by The Leicester Mercury why she voted against legalising same-sex marriage, she responded: "I think that was one of the issues people, especially those who asked me to vote against, found hardest to accept and it also tied in with my own Christian faith too.

"Marriage, to me, is between a man and a woman."

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM


The UK government, by the way doesn't have an "equalities" minister. Get your facts right or shut up spreading lies.

Thick old Muppet is wrong again.
Daft as a brush.

Minister for Equalities - GOV.UK
https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/minister-for-equality
The Minister for Equalities has overall responsibility for policy on sexual orientation and transgender equality and is responsible for cross-government equality ...
Jo Swinson MP - GOV.UK

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM

{Sigh}
No children are a legitimate target Musket.
I have explained the law to you, and provided you with the Red Cross' explanation of it, and you still don't get it!
You must be as daft as a brush.

"Thick" does not come close to describing your obtuseness.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:17 AM

Yeah, I'd say that 99% of excellent people, the ones Keith should be blushing for having the gall to use such good people to push his odious point, are or were superstitious. In that sense, they ran the risk of being blinded somewhat in their judgement.

My local vicar knows fuck all about playing musical instruments but he is fairly good at lending a sympathetic ear when someone dies.

I fail to see the point. They weren't useful to society because they had an imaginary friend but because they wouldn't call Palestinian children legitimate targets, to give a random example.

Rolf Harris is still an excellent artist. Akenaton probably knows how to train dogs. My gardener isn't much cop at nuclear physics.



The UK government, by the way doesn't have an "equalities" minister. Get your facts right or shut up spreading lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

Keith A of Hertford said

"Superstitious fools"

Nelson Mandela, JF Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, ...

Well, the fact that these men were "religious" simply tells us about the power of indoctrination!

There is no "common sense" to following a religion!

Take Christianity, it is impossible to prove the Jesus portrayed in the Bible ever existed!
That is the truth of the matter!
There are NO contemporary records of Jesus's existence!
All the stories about him emerge decades after he was supposed to have lived and died!

You've heard of urban legends? That was/is Jesus!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 05:34 AM

I would add to that list, the "Equalities" Minister in the UK government.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

"Superstitious fools"

Nelson Mandela, JF Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, ...

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM

And the presence of gay people isn't an excuse to slur them.

Funny that Akenaton says there aren't many where he lives. Thousands took part in a gay pride day on his doorstep yesterday. Such celebrations are needed whilst ever bigotry denies reality.

He reminds me of Iran saying they don't have that phenomenon, days after footage appeared of two 15 year old male children hanged for being lovers.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 11:28 PM

And it occurs to me that were it not for heteros, there wouldn't be any gays...."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:24 PM

""Without heteros the human race would disappear from the face of the earth.""
With developments in reproductive science, this may not be accurate any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:23 PM

I might add that the rare case in which an adopted child might be sexually abuse by a gay adoptive parent is more than offset by the number of heterosexual parents who abuse their own children.

So don't even start.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:31 PM

Gays can take pride in the fact that they are not adding to the burgeoning overpopulation of this planet. If they have children at all, they adopt, often children that their natural parents don't want. One gay couple adopted two children from a Chinese orphanage, and the kids have a far better life now than they would ever have had if left where they were.

And the accusation that they abuse these children is a scurrilous slander.

I know this from observing a number of gay couples within my rather wide sphere of acquaintances.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:07 PM

Tunesmith: "Atheism is not a faith!"

Do you believe that?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 07:54 PM

Ian I wish you would try to be even a little consistent in your idiocy.

Homosexuals march to proclaim "pride" in their sexual orientation, so if we are to have the "equality" that you value so highly, surely it would be permissible for heteros to proclaim their pride in being heterosexual?......or does equality only work for sexual minorities in your crazy little world?

I mean, heteros have a lot to be proud about, don't they Ian. Without heteros the human race would disappear from the face of the earth.

But that's as nothing compared with the pride shown by homosexuals in being allowed to use the word marriage out of context. Wow! now that's cool!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:09 PM

Err.. pete. Atheists don't have any faith position. In fact the term atheist is wrong as that means anti theist.

The huge mast majority of people in The UK, including those of heritage of Christian, Muslim, Temple dwellers whatever, are irreligious.

Or in other words, don't give a flying fuck for your apology for a pathetic God. He hasn't got a dick so he hasn't got any relevance to normal people. Superstitious fools can get on with saying how wonderful he is, but he doesn't even exist. He is an excuse for hating people who are different.

Forgive me for pointing out that makes the God concept laughable, as it is to most people.

Keith asserts he is relevant and puts forward doctored and tampered statistics to apparently prove it. This is the same Keith who said the other day that Israeli terrorists were working within the law when they murdered children playing on the beach.

Well done Mudcat. This is what the BS section is about. Criminal fascist thugs getting the oxygen of publicity. Goes well with the homophobic criminal scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 04:30 PM

Atheism is not a faith!
I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty certain that, apart from those stupid humans, the word's animal kingdom is totally atheist!
Now, you wouldn't say that animals possess a faith, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

in fact, I read recently that in a survey, somewhere, that the children of atheists were the least likely to retain their parents faith position.
and of course the contempory evangelicals that musket disdains are , I think, the churches that are growing, and maybe to some extent at the expense of traditionalists that water down christian teaching.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:59 PM

"Atheists are a minority?"

"Yes, they are.

And that is just more proof of how pathetically stupid the human race really is!

Of course, most of the world's intelligentsia are atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

Atheists are a minority?

Yes, they are.
We have had the discussion and you will remember the surveys.
Meanwhile, the growth of the Muslim, Hindu and Sikh communities, and the surge of Polish Catholics more than compensates for the fewer Anglicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

Musket: "I'd make your fucking eyes water boy."

Laughing my way to tears!

GfS

P.S. More deleted posts....but they must LOVE Musket talking about the size of his pecker!..Tells you something!!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 12:20 PM

You must be joking!   I'll be in Glasgow, but watching something which really makes ME proud, my brave hounds.

If heteros were to hold a "pride" march they would be hounded by idiots like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM

Back of the net.

And which closet would that be here in the twenty first century?

I thought you would be out cheering on the thousands of Scots parading in the gay march in Glasgow today?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

. Most people in The Uk are too sophisticated to actually be superstitious.

If you mean not atheists, you are wrong.
British atheists are a minority and, in proportion, a shrinking one.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

I think Ian has finally come out of the closet. :0)