BS: Church joins real world

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:27 PM

Gfs, I have a copy of Wordsworth's Complete works, 1888, and it is about as tough a read as your last few Beethoven posts-though to your credit, yours are somewhat shorter. (Who knows, in a hundred years, or so, from now, scholars may be studying and trying to figure out tge meaning of a couple of those same posts).
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM

GfS... any chance you were forced to read Hegel as a kid? Your posts are getting harder & harder to unravel enough to GET your points.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:17 PM

Church joins real world?????????

REAL world??

Agreeing with your politics, is NOT the 'real world'...the next batch looking for 'change' will teach you that. Your political 'real world' is just a passing delusion, that seems all so 'urgent' now, and will be completely irrelevant, after the passing of time...and not too much time, at that! Go back to the illustration I gave you about Beethoven's music, verses the German Empire, AT THAT TIME....WHICH is still with us???...and being as music activates more neurons of the brain, than most any other activity on the planet, are we now supposed to adhere to concepts, contrived by those using LESS of their brain...and stretching their limits to do so????
Whatever music is activating, whatever portions of the brain, now being activated, cannot be 'judged' by those who haven't experienced that REALITY, using LESS of their brains, nor can it be fully understood, UNLESS you have that data running though the activated, LARGER portion of that brain...which perceptions run deeper and clearer, than those trying to get a grasp of it all, USING LESS of their brains trying to do it!!! It opens up circuits of THINKING, not opened UNTIL that input is analyzed using MORE of the brain, than without!
IF that AWARENESS, senses and perceives greater and deeper, then perhaps it DOES run into something that IS an attribute of 'God'....Now we 'can't say that', because what we ARE talking about, is NOT comprehended, by people who elect to avoid opening up that part of their brains, and responding to it!!...so in turn, we get stupid, uninformed, inexperienced, less intelligent OPINIONS from people who 'just don't know'!....and often, studying and spouting 'politics' is about as high as they can go!..and the same goes for even 'So-Called Religion'!
'In the beginning God created man in his own image...and ever since man has been trying to return the favor.'...but there IS a fuller side to reality, and unless you allow it in, your 'opinions', no matter where or how you base them, are rather immature!..(and so are your posts, that show just how immature they, and you are!!)....so much, that you end up denying God and/or the attributes of God, like LOVE, patience, faith, forgiveness, PEACE, hope of a higher revelation, the brotherhood of man, and the reasons to see us as one family under 'Heaven'...(BTW, Earth is located in 'Heaven')..which has misconstrued conceptions, due to bogus interpretations of man, and the 'churches' that they have created, in accordance to their small and unused portions of their brains!!!, which short-steps the REAL WORLD!
So to say, the 'Church joins real world', in reality, is saying the religious delusion agrees with the political delusion...but in reality, they are BOTH ILLUSIONS, shaking hands...but they have NOTHING to do with REALITY!...being as REALITY HAS TO INCLUDE the 'whole'....and you don't even have a 'clue' of what the whole is, using less parts of your brain in trying to perceive it!!!! ....and the toughest part is trying to impart knowledge that a greater reality DOES exist...and right in front of your own blind noses!
Besides, some idiots, beyond the moronic, push that 'there is no God', because they are trying to have the 'State' viewed as 'God'!!..Whatever that means to their non-functioning, and ignored brains!!

Musket: "Mind you, I'm happy to let him carry on."

GOOD, you might LEARN something, unless it causes you to consider your own fulfillment, and it terrorizes you!.....
...or you could continue to think and write nothingness, as you've been doing, for a long time...and then 'think' you're being 'so hip'.
Wake up...it's in front of you!....activate more of your brain and you will see it!
...and as a side note, the music will become more 'alive'..and if you're a player, you'll be on the next steps to being AWESOME...or as I used to tell my kids growing up, "If you want to be 'different'..Be Excellent!!"

GfS

P.S. I'm NOT trying to 'put you down', but rather, ...and if you think Beethoven was the only one who 'heard things'
..check out what the composer of this piece is describing! ..and it's all consistent!..but you can't 'see' it....try using the rest of your brain...it becomes obvious!!!

Peace!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:03 PM

You puzzle me in your recent posts, Pete 7*.

All respects....but:
I can't figure if you are genuinely trying to understand something new and increase your knowledge from others? It surely does not seem so, as what has been oisted and linked are complex concepts to grasp.

It seems more likely that you are attempting to merely reinforce your belief and spread ithem to others here.

If it is the latter, you are doing a very poor job at it. In addition, you have selected a challenging community to "spread your faith" to.

It may serve your interests better and be more fruitful if you focus on converting the already converted in your locale. While it is your choice, it seems to be a good time to fold 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:43 PM

"...but seems to me that your post is spin, and the efforts of the authors of the links, damage control and spin..."

The point of my post is that it was NOT 'spin'... that they were forced to integrate the new data with all other known data in order to make sense out of it. They have no religious or moral need to discover a pre-determined set of answers... they simply do not. And if new evidence appears to force a re-evaluation of THIS finding, it will be part of a newer set of answers.

YOU have trapped yourself into a never ending 'damage control' based on far less. It is YOU who believes something that cannot be ever proven, and YOU discredit science in general because it doesn't always support YOUR simplistic, narrow belief system.

There is little more I can say....

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:13 PM

Go on pete. I shall ask, purely in clarification of your posts.

How old are the dinosaurs then?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM

sorry bill, but seems to me that your post is spin, and the efforts of the authors of the links, damage control and spin.
they do not have an experimentally sound explanation yet. there was nothing new that I had not read previously from my google search.    it was as I said. a pre conceived belief in deep time denies the more obvious conclusion that the dinos are not 65+ myo, due to the extreme unlikelihood of the various soft tissue lasting that long. starting with the assumption that they are that old and therefore there must be something we don't know yet, is a faith position ,not an experimentally validated position.
the iron preserving ostrich blood vessels is not looking that hopeful if the best that can be said after 2 yrs in laboratory conditions is that they were "recognizable" !

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:37 AM

That was pretty desperate, there Ol' Musky Ian.
hey, You two go off, run along, and play, "Try to Insult"....look for clues, and solve the problem.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

One has keyless ignition, one certainly does.

A bit like Goofus's clueless ignition, each time he lights up his keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM

Musket: "In order to be clueless you have to be searching for clues in the first place."

Musket, Have you ever lost your keys, and started to look all over for them....and every place you can think you 'might' have put them...but they weren't there either............then out of nowhere, bang, you find them, and you trot out the door to the car...right?
...or once you found them, did you have to keep looking???

Don: "And before you screw that up as well, when I say "clueless," Goofup, I'm referring to you."


Clues are for people who are guessing....and BTW, as many as I've given you, and you STILL don't have it, says a lot about you and whatever damaged your brain....unless there are large sections that just don't light up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:49 AM

In order to be clueless you have to be searching for clues in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:39 AM

And before you screw that up as well, when I say "clueless," Goofup, I'm referring to you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:35 AM

Clueless!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:06 PM

I got it the first time!..(Jeez, I'm not a political guy...my brain functions!)...and like I said, they haven't had a clue since the day they were founded.
Now, get your head out of politics, and even you could understand it!
Think music...more of your brain works with it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 10:50 PM

By the way, Goofy, read the rest of my post. If you are sufficiently perceptive, you may learn something.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 10:46 PM

I was talking about the Anglican Church's recognition of women as worthy members of the clergy, Goofup.

Or did you miss that?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 10:17 PM

Don: "It looks like the Anglican Church is getting the clue."

The Anglican Church hasn't had a clue since the day it was founded!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:56 PM

Yes Bill D, while some are contented to be "fixed in time", foftunately, science is not. There are plenty scientists moving forward adding to knowledge, making new discoveries, as well as those challenging and fine tuning what we think we know, using credible scientific reasoning that is always open to challenge.

Those "fixed in time" used a closed system, poor logic and reasoning to only seek out information or explanations that reinforce a firm belief -ignoring or dismissing all other worldly explanations outside this belief. I suspect such "tunnel vision" among like thinking people may be comforting, as it reinforces a set of beliefs that are seen as very important to their values and lives.We have seen examples of this through history, and the impacts on free and open scientific and reasoned thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:18 PM

"So , how do evolutionists account for soft tissue in dino bone?"


Read this, Pete... it took me all of 45 seconds to find.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/


and another one. But the first goes into the detail about what was happening... both in research and in deciding what COULD be possible.

It seems no one had ever seen such results because they couldn't imagine LOOKING for something that was 'impossible'. It was when they were confronted with bewildering evidence that they had to do what science is supposed to do- look carefully at results and revise their thinking in order to account for that evidence.
They could have mumbled something about "possible contamination" and "flawed tests" and continued to **believe** that such things were impossible.... but other scientific tests said that no matter what had been **believed**, they were seeing collagen that had been preserved. Now they needed to find a SCIENTIFIC explanation for data that kept refusing to be denied. They did find answers... it is Creationists that continue to **believe** that there must be some mistake, because this old manuscript from 2000 years ago listed some people & ages and when added up, seemed to limit 'creation' to 6000 years ago.

**Belief** can hamper understanding in science OR religion, but science has a built-in self-correcting mechanism, if used properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:39 PM

Back to the subject of this thread:

It looks like the Anglican Church is getting the clue.

In addition to just being bloody fascinating for it's own sake, there is much to be learned by studying history.

In ancient Athens, the world's first true democracy, they had some ideas and practices that we would be wise to examine closely and adopt today! Their Congress consisted of 6,000 citizens. Not elect. The first 6,000 citizens who were interested enough to show up in the field where the meetings were held. Far too many for anyone to bribe. And officials were not elected, they were chosen by lottery from the citizenry at large--and were expected to be up on current events and issues. It was their duty as citizens of Athens. At the end of their term, they would be judged on their performance by a jury of 501 citizens (again, too many to bribe, and an odd number to avoid hung juries). If they had done a really good job, they would be honored and rewarded. If they weren't up to the job, screwed up, or showed signs of corruption, they would be admonished, and if they really blew it, they could be banished.

Proved very effective while it lasted. But it came to an end when Athens was invaded and taken over by Philip of Macedonia, father of Alexander the Great.

Democracy wasn't to emerge again for over 2,000 years. Good attempt, but we're definitely not there yet.

One point where the Athenians blew it: women were not allowed to vote or take part in political deliberations. Men only.

But there were contemporary Greek men who objected to this, saying that by not including women, Athens was wasting half of its intellectual potential.

The Anglican Church seems to have made a good step forward.

Let's stare fixedly at Pope Francis for a bit. He seems to be a fairly bright guy. Maybe he'll get the idea too.

Just a thought....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:26 PM

" clear refutations....." Bill?    If they were refutations, were they clear?      A lot of stuff gets repeated on these threads but getting repeats of these supposedly clear refutations don't appear to be included.   Yes there have been some links posted which were pretty tec and it seems the posters were often not able or willing to express the ideas or data in lay mans terms.      And of course your training may help you identify logical fallacies and I hope that I will consider such when examples are given. But in general, I would hope to discuss the substance more than the mode of delivery. So , how do evolutionists account for soft tissue in dino bone?   That is the question I googled that led to the reading I mentioned earlier.   Maybe you can identify the explanation I missed?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:00 PM

Don: "Politics is a very complex field, but not as complex as some think, if one has solid ethical principles and makes one's political decisions on that basis."

Do you mean like, 'Doing onto others as you have then do unto you', and being honest about it...and not letting one's will intrude on the rights of others??..but that's not 'politics'...that is the Judea-Christian principles that the country was attempted to structured from....'Politics' is just the subtle manipulation(and sometimes, 'not so subtle' manipulations) AWAY from those principles, funneling power away from the PEOPLE and into the hands of the elitists who want to control it all!

Now of the two choices, music or politics, music is the higher calling. Music isn't about taking power away from anyone, getting the brain to work at a higher capacity, while touching the heart of man. It seems that the more intelligent one becomes, music is preferred over politics....and lawyers and other bottom feeders gravitate toward twisting good laws and traditions that work, AWAY from one's native intelligence and common sense, into trusting KNOWN liars and their lies. Music makes no such pretense....or as Duke Ellington said,in regards to music, "If it sounds good...it IS good!"
Or you can out your faith into stuff like,"If you like your healthcare plan, if you like your doctor, you can keep your healthcare, and keep your doctor, Period!" ...sorta a 'bait and switch' con-job...which it was, so the insurance companies could have compelled business thrown their way..by a law which coerces, under penalty to do business, with crooks and thieves!!...and/or all the other lies and deception pulled off by this and prior administrations, at the behest of their corporate bribing. Of course you might want to debate that, but why?....It IS the truth, against the majority will of the people, and conned it's way through Congress!...not to mention all those 'selling points' promoted to squeeze more money out of the people for those' shovel ready jobs'..that never materialized....but the money was not refunded!..only clandestinely shuffled over to the Wall Street cronies, who Obama supporters seem to oppose, though they were blinded to the fact, that the Wall Street cronies were Obama's biggest supporters....but that doesn't matter....the supporters of such dishonest con jobs have been issued 'talking points' to defend it all...just like Bush's war in Iraq, had it's talking points issued, to defend a safe environment for Halliburton to rape the people's economy!...but 'politically' it was sold to the people under the guise of 'patriotism', and used 'talking points' to shift the attention AWAY from the real deal!!...Well, that's politics for ya'....but somewhere is a composer whose works will outlast both parties, and the lying, that they inflict on the public, to bilk them and use the money to enslave them further!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

Some one tell Goofus this is thread about Church of England Synod the other week...

Mind you, I'm happy to let him carry on. Giving him a subject to aim at rarely alters wheat he rattles on about.

Keep banging the rocks together Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM

Politics is a very complex field, but not as complex as some think, if one has solid ethical principles and makes one's political decisions on that basis.

Some people don't bother with matters such as ethics, so are unable to make rational political judgments. This shows that either they do not have the mental capacity to learn something about ethics, or are too mentally lazy--or that they simply want to play it deuces wild and too hell with anyone they happen to trample.

Unfortunately, there are all too many people like that. Too dumb or too lazy--or feel that having an ethical code at all will inhibit them from doing what they damn well please, regardless of the consequences to others. That's why the country is in the mess that it's in.

They often say things like, "Let's not talk about that, let's talk about Beethoven (or anything else) instead."

Anything to avoid having to make a moral commitment. Or to do the reading and thinking that would make that possible.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:33 AM

Don: "What the hell are you babbling about?"

See? I just told you and you don't 'get it'...

"Now ya' gotta' admit, people who operate there, more than likely have a hard time to begin to explain to someone, who has always been indoctrinated with a 'cap' on what was considered to be acceptable, as far as topics and 'how far to take it'...."

So I guess politics has shrunk your mind?
Well, at least you can't say you weren't warned.....(but you'd probably don't have the capability to understand).
Stick to politics, then...'Little things amuse little minds.'

Musket: "What did Beethoven have to say about The Church of England's..."

I don't keep up on churches...and who gives a rat's ass about The Church of England. You guys are all in a tizzie over what a meaningless organization, that you DON'T believe in, makes about their policies?????

(Cups hands around mouth and shouts Northwest, across the vast expanses of distance): "Hey Don, I found the guy who didn't have anyone to play with.!!".....

....and then act like it's supposed to be relevant???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 02:36 AM

So...

What did Beethoven have to say about The Church of England's general synod resolution to allow women bishops the other week?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:31 PM

What's the matter, Goofus, don't you have anybody to play with this afternoon?

What the hell are you babbling about?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM

I was laughing so hard, that I hit the 'Enter' key.

OK..OK..Take this objectively, and you might share in the satire of it all.......

Don: "Nor do I consider politics to be any kind of "art form."

Whaddya' mean... I don't "consider politics to be any kind of "art form."????...Politics is 'Galactic Central' for every two-bit,' in for a penny in for a pound', 'wanna-be-a-better' 'Con Artist' on the entire Planet!!!!!....Oh my God!!.. The bullshit these guys make up is phenomenal!!!!...and the trade-off is..."With MY brains and YOUR money, we can make a divide, so that every time I need to bilk some of you suckers, for some money, you can back me, knowing full well, that I'll think of something to make you feel happy...Man, to let you know how much we love you, on our frolicking path to 'Political Utopia' I will do my best to represent making you glad about being on the same side, I would lie to you in a New York second, if it would make you feel useful, and good, and happy! and on the right side..and now that we're just awaiting another attack from the 'other side'......or another cause to make you feel better...so I'll need your additional financial support while I'm thinking!....meanwhile, let's PARTY.................Here, think about this "_______ __ ______", for a while"

... Nor do I consider politics to be any kind of "art form."..Sheesh

What's even more hilarious, with the internet social media and all,
some people, cut from the same ilk, do it not for money but for 'pride of ego', just to rally people, and use them as scorecards for their 'CAUSE'(truth not required), that they already have 'emotion in common', and think its 'Political Activism'...never an 'ego trip'..No, No No ....you can't trust me if 'talking points' aren't the right ones(all the way)..and if my 'lack of indignation' seemed a little bit vulnerable to scrutiny...No, I'm glad to announce that you don't have to worry about THAT any more....I USED to be conceited, but now I'm just PERFECT....trust me."

Meanwhile, Support our Party with donations and support....(even if a few of us blow it, we'll make sure that Party Line is towed.....Oh, you can trust me on that as well...The Party would never go for it!!""

Get it, Got it, Good!
Music As Art                                        by Me
BTW, ..as a side note...music is WAY hipper, EXPANDS the mind, to think in the way it feels to do, rather than confining it to the expectations lesser intelligence, it reaches to the higher....maybe the higher you go, and the mind is open WIDE, SEES, and FEELS..and HEARS.....and you might never knew know who or what you might bump into.......how do you tell those with closed off small minds, by nature of cutting off unseen, life-giving nutrients!....by order and influences of other small minds.....that there IS a level that everything IS different, input is different, empathetic expression, both coming and going can be felt, and translated into auditory, vibrations that communicate both words and emotion, without words...and do so more accurately!!...AND it can be heard by another human, and enhance their perception, in both width, depth, and sensitively. Intelligence is the ability to process information..and music, when inspired by such input, opens more neurons in the brain, than just about any other activity...including sex!!!

Now ya' gotta' admit, people who operate there, more than likely have a hard time to begin to explain to someone, who has always been indoctrinated with a 'cap' on what was considered to be acceptable, as far as topics and 'how far to take it'.... it is in the genius, that only the art, music in this case, can...

...and the arrogance of those who haven't the foggiest idea what the process is, and how it comes about, or why, are going to tell a person that is able to, and DOES, that he is mistaken in his explanation of his sourcing ..... I think he belongs in your political action groups as per above.
See Above"

See?? Wasn't that fun??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:54 PM

"…you could leave out your personal negative opinion of what he must have been thinking…."

Not my "personal negative opinion." It doesn't take a psychiatrist to figure out what Beethoven was thinking on the described occasion, especially when this was not the only time he went out of his way to "put down" another composer. He was famous for this sort of behavior. He had ego problems.

This is not to denigrate Beethoven as a composer. His music speaks for itself.

Frankly, I don't see where God comes into it. Nor do I consider politics to be any kind of "art form." A thorough understanding of the principles of politics is a practical necessity, especially in the modern world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

Don, Once again, when you write regarding the composers, YOUR brilliance comes out...(though you could leave out your personal negative opinion of what 'he must have been thinking).

Funny how brilliance comes out when talking about the conjunction of God and music...and pathetic when talking about politics...a considerably lower 'art' form!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM

A wealthy nobleman invited Beethoven to come to his palace and play his latest piano composition for his guests. This was a standard gig for musicians in Beethoven's day and often how composers earned their livelihood—playing for wealthy patrons and their guests.

When Beethoven arrived in the large salon where the guests had gathered, he discovered that he was not the only one on the program. There was a string quartet set up, prepared to open the program with another composer's new work.

Beethoven sat through the performance scowling and glaring thunderbolts. When the quartet had finished and the musicians and composer had taken their bows, the nobleman introduced Beethoven, who would be playing his latest work.

Beethoven, stood, acknowledged the applause of the audience, but with steam pouring out of his collar. He then walked over to the second violinist's music stand and picked up a sheet of music (the second violinists part), took it to the piano, sat down, and improvised around the part—brilliantly—for nearly an hour! When he had finished, the audience went wild with applause. The other composer shrank down and hid under the carpet.

This was not the only time that Beethoven went out of his way to denigrate other composers.

Beethoven was a brilliant musician and composer. But as a person, he could be pluperfect son-of-a-bitch.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 12:15 PM

" We seek the truth, and that is what is important, and we seek it on a fundamental level"

Thank you, Stu.... and Joe. That says about all of it...except (always an 'except', hmmm?) Except we don't necessarily expect to find many actually 'basic' truths.... it is the process that is exciting.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM

It reminds me of when my brother, working for an aid NGO in an African state, sent a bloke over for my company to teach him a few things about building equipment for manufacturing roof tiles etc locally without electricity etc.

A nice enough bloke but slightly over zealous. He did keep telling me how God had given him this job and it's his promise to Jesus to go back and apply what we taught him.

Funny, I thought my brother gave him the job, and his promise to me to go back and apply what we taught him. By that reckoning, my brother is God the father, I'm God the son. If anybody wishes to apply to be the holy goat, send a cv with covering letter to the usual address.

Also, we paid for him to come over, so if anyone has God's invoicing address, I'd be obliged.

Thanking a man made construction for your own talent is a kick in the face for the parents, teachers, role models and natural aptitude that got you where you are today.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:42 AM

Well, I'm afraid that Jim Webb's God must have abandoned him, as he hasn't produced any memorable tunes for decades!
Or, is it simply that he's run out of ideas?
Back to Beethoven!
We must take Beethoven's comments in the context of the time!
I've read all the major biographies/studies of Beethoven, and I am currently struggling with some of his piano sonatas!
Beethoven lived in a transitional time in the history of "classical music".
Before him, musicians were mainly employed by the church or rich gentry, but within ten years of Beethoven's death Franz Liszt was touring Europe like a modern day rock star, filling concert halls and receiving wild adoration from fans.
And that transition was mainly down to Beethoven.
He saw himself as a genius, who was far superior to the landed gentry who employed him. And he told them so!
He was also a bit of a "spin doctor" stressing the fact that he was inspired by God, and when people attended a Beethoven concert they felt that they were listening to a genius who was a channel for God himself!
Beethoven did such a good job that for a hundred years after his death he was unchallenged as the towering genius of classical music.
In many ways, one come draw parallels with jazzman John Coltane who also benefitted from the fact he was seen as a spiritual player who was a channel for some higher force.
It's all nonsense of course, as it's simply down hard work!
Coltrane, for example, is famous for the amount of time that he devoted to his studies.
As I have already said, "genius" simply builds on what has gone before e.g think of Newton's " standing on the shoulders" quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:39 AM

"We still have a long way to go to find easy ways to be understood in this medium, hmm?"

Theirs lies the crux methinks. I'm not the best at articulating my thoughts in words sometimes. As for the humour, I think you're reading way too much into it, although I think there could be a cultural difference in the way we debate. There's a lot of self-deprecation in British humour, and we're all iconoclasts at heart, apart from Tories (thank god).

One thing I would say is we are loosing our manners here in the UK. One reason I love the US so much is the people are so polite most of the time.This comes as a shock to a cynical old Brit at first, but it soon becomes a pleasure, especially in the smaller towns out in the country.

Thinking about the pint thing, I'm not sure one of those two wasn't a UK catter actually, and the other guy I'd have a pint with after all. Life's too short.

"Bill is the best there is. I'll vouch for him."

Joe, I'm not calling Bill's character into question at all, in fact I think he's got a degree of tolerance I perhaps haven't. I'm calling into question his desire to castigate me for being offended, which itself implies a certain judgement of character, something I apparently should not do to Pete, despite who-knows-how-many posts trying to get him to actually get his information from elsewhere. The Schweitzer posts above are a case in point, and I've been through this in detail with him before, but my motives are questionable, obviously. Mary Schweitzer is a brilliant scientist and deeply committed Christian too, apparently.

The saddest part of this is the fact that people like you guys (Bill and Joe) and myself are even having this discussion. I think we are pursue the same ends, albeit by different paths. We seek the truth, and that is what is important, and we seek it on a fundamental level. I would suggest I'm no less spiritual than you Joe, even though it manifests itself in a different way. My moral foundations are born of a philosophy of science but are still solid, compassionate and inclusive.

This is where the dialogue between science and religion should be, and no doubt our differences are profound, but our basic humanity gives us ample common ground to explore.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:37 AM

Hey Tunesmith, When I asked you if your initials were 'J.W.', it was because your 'handle' was 'Tunesmith'...'J.W.' were the initials of a guy I met in the mid sixties, when he was working in Malibu, at a place called 'Prentiss'...and while working there, at night, he was writing songs. My Dad, worked at the same place, so on several occasions I got to meet this guy and talk to him, and got to know him...I thought it may have been you, and here's the reason why I originally thought that, and why I threw that idea away.....
here's a cut and paste from Wikipedia:

Regarding Jimmy Webb

In 1964, Webb and his family moved to Southern California, where he attended San Bernardino Valley College studying music. Following the death of his mother in 1965, his father made plans to return to Oklahoma. Webb decided to stay in California to continue his music studies and to pursue a career as a songwriter in Los Angeles.

He has written numerous platinum-selling classics, including "Up, Up and Away", "By the Time I Get to Phoenix", "Wichita Lineman", "Galveston", "The Worst That Could Happen", "All I Know", and "MacArthur Park".[2] His songs have been performed by many popular contemporary artists, including The 5th Dimension, Glen Campbell, The Supremes, Richard Harris, Johnny Maestro, Rod McKuen, Frank Sinatra, Thelma Houston, The Temptations, Barbra Streisand, Art Garfunkel, Joe Cocker, Judy Collins, Donna Summer, Linda Ronstadt, America, Amy Grant, Dionne Warwick, John Denver, Johnny Cash, James Taylor, Billy Joel, Tom Jones, Michael Feinstein, Rosemary Clooney, R.E.M., and Carly Simon.

Webb was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame in 1986 and the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame in 1990. He received the National Academy of Songwriters Lifetime Achievement Award in 1993, the Songwriters Hall of Fame Johnny Mercer Award in 2003, the ASCAP "Voice of Music" Award in 2006, and the Ivor Novello Special International Award in 2012. According to BMI, his song "By the Time I Get to Phoenix" was the third most performed song in the fifty years between 1940 and 1990.[4] Webb is the only artist ever to have received Grammy Awards for music, lyrics, and orchestration.[4]
"In 1998, Webb completed his first book, Tunesmith: Inside the Art of Songwriting, which was published by Hyperion Books. It was well received by songwriters and performers and became a best-seller.[14] One book reviewer described it as "a companion every serious songwriter should read, and read again, and keep handy for referral."[15]

In the 2000s, Webb has talked more openly about his return to the Christian faith of his upbringing and the role it has played in his music. In addition to his cantata, The Animals' Christmas, he has always included religious songs in his albums—"Psalm One-Five-O", "Jerusalem", and "I Will Arise" are a few examples—and his lyrics have included biblical verses and allusions. In an October 2007 interview with Nigel Bovey, editor of The Salvation Army newspaper The War Cry, Webb was quite explicit about his renewed faith.

    'I couldn't write a song without God. Sure, I could hack out hackneyed phrases and clichés, but to write anything meaningful I have to be in tune with God. He is the great source, my inspiration, the current that I have to connect to. Sadly I've not always used the gift He's given me—the answered prayer—as best as I could or should have. I've made mistakes. I've done things I wish I hadn't done.'

Webb has stated, "I am a strong believer in God... God is important to me. God is bigger than any one particular denomination. I don't like it when people try to confine Him. I DON'T PUT ANY LIMITS ON GOD." Webb reads the King James Version of the Bible."

So, if you have a bitch about God and music, this guy is still living...go fucking argue with him!!...see if He and Beethoven are talking about something in common...and/or are they both deluded!

You've been conditioned to think politically, and therefore, small!!

Here's the complete text...and note the LISTS of credits to his name

GfS

P.S. Oh, What have you written of note???

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:39 PM

Tunesmith: "Mohammed said God spoke to him...via an angel, but does that make it true? Does it heck!
You're living in a fantasy land!"

Me??? I'm not the one telling you how I came about writing some of the world's most famous music....He wrote it, and when asked how he did it, he answered the question.

"Hey man, where did you get that really cool rock?"

"I found it while walking home"

"No you didn't! You're wrong...I don't believe you!"

"Why not?"

"I don't believe in walks home!"

"Well, I answered you what you asked me....Oh well. I guess he won't be writing this type of music!"

GfS

P.S. Sometimes the fantasy we live in, is actually below our capabilities of perception....and we believe we don't have access to higher things....
...so stay small, and make silly arguments to keep yourself, and other people down! Let's wallow in our pettiness, and squelch anyone getting free to excel to higher levels...it just wouldn't be politically correct!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 09:19 PM

Stu says: I don't need a lecture Bill; even though you're obviously a better person than I.

Bill is the best there is. I'll vouch for him.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:03 PM

Stu... I do 'get' the humor. I merely suggest that that FORM of 'friendly banter' goes a ways beyond much of the humor that I am comfortable with. If I had days to do a serious project on the topic, I could ...I think.. demonstrate a cultural element in it which mirrors as humor the deeper sense of how some people express disagreement on serious issues.

(My ex-wife could not argue any point for long without taking the stance that she was being disparaged as a person. Discussions deteriorated to meta-debates about the argument itself and whether she was being unfairly treated.)

"..., but there's only one or two I wouldn't sit down for a pint with"

In my time here, there were only 2-3 that *I* would not care to sit down with... but one IS from the UK.. and he 'might' be reconsidered. However, in the case of several others, it might become a bit... ummm... heated. I would still try to debate only the issue and not make assumptions about their character. If they were not able to do the same, I 'might' develop an opinion about character & motivation.


We still have a long way to go to find easy ways to be understood in this medium, hmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Stu, on the verge of giving up
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:56 PM

Pete, we have discussed Schweitzer's work at length before on other threads; I seem to recall providing links to her work but I might be wrong. What's the issue with her comment on bio films?

"although some of the repartee is quite clever & amusing, it includes what seems to me to be amazing amounts of personal insults (supposedly 'friendly') and character critiques"

Bill, with the greatest respect it seems you're not 'getting' the humour. This doesn't matter, until it becomes a comment in a discussion about how we debate. A thought had occurred to me since my last post, and this is connected. Much of this isn't really personal in the sense it's designed to really offend a person. Much of this is simply banter, and it's quite possible to have a big debate with someone, things to get heated and sometimes a bit pointed, but five minutes later it's forgotten or everyone has moved on. I disagree with many people on this forum and will discuss subjects with some vigour, but there's only one or two I wouldn't sit down for a pint with, and none of those are UK catters (whether they'd want a pint with me is a different matter!).

Last of the Summer Wine is pretty gentle (and awful) stuff, 7pm on a Sunday night viewing just after Songs of Praise. I haven't seen it for years, but it never had "amazing" amounts of personal insults as far as I can recall.

Taking the piss is a national pastime here, and long may it remain so. No-one's safe from it. As it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:38 PM

"but many of these discussions have been revealed some clues to how a person thinks. He gets very evasive on some difficult subjects and refuse to commit to an opinion...

Obviously... what else can he do when someone posts a clear refutation of something which his conscience has adopted? He explained that he came to his religious beliefs by 'being convinced' of them by some religious group. (He didn't say, but Seventh Day Adventists come close from what I read of them)


"Please, I beg you, go back and read the threads; .."
I have... I was in most of them. Read MY attempts to correct obviously false data & show flaws in his reasoning.

"I don't need a lecture Bill; even though you're obviously a better person than I."

I am not 'lecturing' YOU, Stu.. any more than I am Pete. ... and I am not 'better' than anyone...just different in my orientation due to my chosen discipline (see below)
I am critiquing a position.. or part of one, just as I am with Pete. (sorry, Pete, but that's how it is) I'm sure you are a decent, thoughtful, trained scientist, Stu, and I am aware that there are issues in science that you cannot bear to see distorted & misrepresented. I have a degree in Philosophy, and there are issues in flawed logic and argument form that drive ME up the wall! Pete has had me on his case for several years as I find embedded premises, circular reasoning and simple errors in research and facts in his assertions.

So: "I'm not sure how you think I should react to his constant dissing of the work I and other do in good faith, and with open minds. "

I think, if you choose to bother any more at all, you should present the best available information possible while pointing to the skewed & flawed ideas & beliefs that you find....my ONLY criticism is with attributing malicious intent to Pete's... or anyone's... opinions when you have only typed words to go on.
(in a couple of early threads, two different people who have met Pete vouched for his integrity and decency as a human.)

It is frustrating to take this much time to conduct a debate, when I'd much rather sit in pub and listen & counter over a pint... but I doubt I'll ever get to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

Sorry bill, I assumed you would know who I was referring to. Mary Switzer ( not sure of spelling) and her boss jack Horner .          I have been doing some more reading ,and not only creationist, and can find nothing extra . Only claims that soft tissue was not there, or that they are looking for some unknown as yet mechanism for the previously thought impossible to have happened. Switzer herself said quite recently.......this is the evidence for biofilms we have found.......and held up a blank board!   The ostrich bone .....close to T. rex?.......was found to be .......recognisable.......after two yr in blood ?   Presumably that means that decay has at least begun, so do you think the iron connection will solve the problem.          Well at least you know that I don't only read Cmi , contrary to the accusations of some.                                                                  Just to clarify stus comments. You may notice that "conspiracy" was in inverted commas indicating another's quote which I was replying to. What I was saying was that there has been some dishonesty....but that every scientist is conducting his investigations coloured by his own worldview but not likely deliberately falsifying his findings.         My main contention is that evidence is interpreted and worldview will influence interpretations.                                                                                                                   Bill, not sure what you mean about church and state, or if I have a particular view anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Some good points Bill D.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:30 PM

"Orators no longer need apply to be MPs."

This.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

Prime ministers question time has been a bread and circuses cock waving session ever since it was televised. Real debate goes on in committee. Available on BBC iPlayer.

Ironically, such distasteful showmanship is a product of American influence on presentation politics. Orators no longer need apply to be MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:59 PM

"but I have never felt that my "integrity" was being questioned."

Congratualtions! So you're not a scientist then? Well, I am a palaeontologist (PhD, part-time, self-funded, old git, broke, graphic designer by day) and my integrity has been called into question.

"All I am concerned with here is YOUR embedded premises about the intent & motivation of another person- as if you read minds over the internet."

I've debated long and hard with Pete, I don't know him personally and my opinion is based on the way he acts on this board. It's a 2D impression to be sure, but many of these discussions have been revealed some clues to how a person thinks. He gets very evasive on some difficult subjects and refuse to commit to an opinion. However, I might be wrong about the chap and remain to be convinced. That said, he gives as good as he gets. Go back and read the threads.

I'm not sure how you think I should react to his constant dissing of the work I and other do in good faith, and with open minds. Pete thinks this is a lie and we're misguided and manipulate data or go into research with the intent of confirming our assumptions: the exact opposite of what we strive for. If that isn't a direct challenge to a person's integrity I have no idea what is.

"I much prefer to confront & question the idea, the concept, the claim, the logic, the data, the interpretation and the sources"

Please, I beg you, go back and read the threads; I've posted links, challenged him to get to grips with the science, countered arguments etc etc I am probably at fault for descending to ad hominem and I'm not proud of it, but then I don't apologise because if you give it, you have to be able to take it. I'm sure that's a fault too.

I'm probably a shite scientist, that's for others to judge. I have no idea if I'll be able to complete my degree but I will be published, so that's a start. I'm as full as shit as the next person and happy to admit it, but I am never dishonest in my approach to any of my work, science or otherwise.

I don't need a lecture Bill; even though you're obviously a better person than I.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:59 PM

"... nobody seems to want to tackle it!"

In your opinion, is this merely a natural result of a " robust debating tradition"? I am not competent to give an 'absolutist' opinion.

I have been watching reruns of "Last of the Summer Wine" and although some of the repartee is quite clever & amusing, it includes what seems to me to be amazing amounts of personal insults (supposedly 'friendly') and character critiques. This show was hugely popular for 30 years. Is there cause & effect... in either direction... involved?

(this probably ought to be a separate thread instead of taking this one off point)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

Bill D said:

"I occasionally see "Prime Minister's questions" on BBC America, and am startled at the noise, cat calls, shouted insults & general furor as members take issue with each other's opinions"

This is a national disgrace, but nobody seems to want to tackle it!
They're a bunch of idiots...and the person - The Speaker - who is supposed to be controlling matters, is the biggest disgrace of all!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:15 PM

"See how honest your mate is. See how he evades discussion of any real depth"

(He is not "my mate") however-----Does not follow that evading = dishonesty. Evading can simply be one interpretation of what I have accused Pete of: faulty reasoning based on unproven, embedded premises.

"He implies that myself, colleagues and friends who work in the earth sciences are dishonest, we're working to some sort of agenda and we manipulate our data to fit our a priori assumptions. I'm sure this happens with some scientists, but not in any I know... ...... It's bloody insulting to have your integrity called into question by someone making groundless and quite ignorant assumptions."

Yes, he does sometimes imply that some 'liberal' scientists pick & choose their data AND their interpretations. I combat that idea constantly..... however: there are subtle but crucial differences between "insulting" and "frustrating". I argue with Pete constantly, but I have never felt that my "integrity" was being questioned. You make the leap from what seem to be "groundless & ignorant assumptions" to having your integrity questioned with amazing agility.

All I am concerned with here is YOUR embedded premises about the intent & motivation of another person- as if you read minds over the internet.

Now- you do make important points:
" People want to teach the crap pete believes (based on the CMI website) as science in our schools. " Indeed... and in other threads *I* have noted this as a major concern. We have the problem² in the US, led by Texas. I was raised in Kansas, and remember how pervasive the issue was when I was in school.
I have never actually heard Pete himself advocate that, and I would react strongly if I did.

(are you reading this, Pete? What IS your position on separation of church & state?)

So....

"If you think the country I come affects the way I structure discussions, then widen your reading from both sides of the Atlantic. We have a very robust debating tradition in the UK, and this extends from the monkey house of the Commons to two blokes in the pub or around the Sunday dinner table. It's the way it is."

Yes...☺.. that seems to be the way it is:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit
I occasionally see "Prime Minister's questions" on BBC America, and am startled at the noise, cat calls, shouted insults & general furor as members take issue with each other's opinions. A "robust debating tradition" does not NEED to require taking a difference of opinion as "personal insult".... but once one side does so, the basic point often gets lost in the race to attach insults and question the integrity and motives of the opponent.
This happens to some extent in almost every society, and I have dealt with a few personal examples of it in MY life... but in a forum like this, I much prefer to confront & question the idea, the concept, the claim, the logic, the data, the interpretation and the sources, rather than 2nd guess the basic character of someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 09:55 AM

"If I understand that correctly, you are saying he 'insults your intelligence'... or some such."

You understand wrongly; intelligence doesn't come in it and I'm the first to say I'm as thick as pigshit. Have a gander at this, for example:

" I am not able to quantify how much if any, amounts to "conspiracy", how much to the bias in education, how much to peer pressure, or fear of job loss or sidelining from advancement. certainly I believe there must be an element of deception/delusion involved, for educated people to believe unproven and impossible things."

He implies that myself, colleagues and friends who work in the earth sciences are dishonest, we're working to some sort of agenda and we manipulate our data to fit our a priori assumptions. I'm sure this happens with some scientists, but not in any I know who take great pains to be as open as possible about their research. We care. Most of the scientists I've met are very generous with their time and knowledge. It's bloody insulting to have your integrity called into question by someone making groundless and quite ignorant assumptions.

No equviocation. All I said is what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

"*I* have been insulted (ad hominem) for treating him as honest and attempting to clarify science"

Everyone gets attacked ad hominem some point, and some people seem to take pleasure in it. I don't. Read back through the discussions where I have attempted to address this issues with Pete. I dares you. Find the refs and links I've sent him and read his replies. See how honest your mate is. See how he evades discussion of any real depth.


"You, Stu... and others in the UK... seem to be somehow programmed to make a couple attempts at reason... then to dismiss anyone who does not agree with invective and ridicule."

Yawn . . . UK catters blah blah blah. If you think I've only made a couple of attempts at reason, then go back and read the threads. Seriously. If you think the country I come affects the way I structure discussions, then widen your reading from both sides of the Atlantic. We have a very robust debating tradition in the UK, and this extends from the monkey house of the Commons to two blokes in the pub or around the Sunday dinner table. It's the way it is.


but at least all this allows ME to hone MY arguments and give some reasonable responses."

I've said before on other threads, I consider pete a teacher. Being nothing but a fat, talentless tosser with only a half-decent education I need all the help I can get understanding some of the concepts I need to get to grips with. Compiling replies for pete has been really useful for this, and in that respect I'm deeply grateful to him.

But here's the rub. People want to teach the crap pete believes (based on the CMI website) as science in our schools. They want to turn the clock back, abandon reason for superstition and allow religion to dictate as much of our lives as possible. They want to abandon the inclusive morality of secular culture for ambiguity of scripture. If I defend my position and the veracity of science with vigour it's because the alternative, a world ruled by religion, is unthinkable, undesirable and almost certainly appallingly violent.

"One thing we can both agree on, is bad mouthing is not intelligent ,useful discussion."

Doesn't stop you though, does it? You've called me a hypocrite before.