BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:58 AM

Oh, Greg F., while you're compiling your references to circumstantial evidence, you also might tell us what you mean by "50% of the time isn't."

Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence isn't circumstantial evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually direct evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually no evidence at all? Is it possible that circumstantial evidence can be so overwhelming, as to overcome substantial and convincing doubt as to guilt?

You might want to start, if you haven't already, with mayomick's post of earlier this morning. However, I do recall from many of your posts over the years that you are not a fan of wikipedia. Well, ya gotta start somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:07 AM

John from Sunset Coast . I don't know how accurate the 50% figure is but this from the wiki entry on circumstantial evidence deals with the perception of such evidence being of less value than direct evidence :

"Indeed, the common metaphor for the strongest possible evidence in any case—the "smoking gun"—is an example of proof based on circumstantial evidence. Similarly, fingerprint evidence, videotapes, sound recordings, photographs, and many other examples of physical evidence that support the drawing of an inference, i.e., circumstantial evidence, are considered very strong possible evidence."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:41 AM

The Iranians were advised not to let the aircraft take off on it's flight from Bandar Abbas to Dubai - They ignored that advice.

There was Iranian Air Force activity in the area as well as an ongoing maritime incident that involved the USS Vincennes, a USN Aegis Missile Cruiser.

The Aegis System on the USS Vincennes automatically "identifies" and prioritises threats that it "sees" then fires automatically and that is what happened to the Iranian Airbus in 1988. Under the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the USS Vincennes was justified in firing.

In the 1960s during the Indonesian confrontation with Malaya, the Guided Missile Destroyer HMS Devonshire was advised enroute to Singapore that attack by Indonesian "Badger" Tu-16 bombers was likely and that it was not known whether or not these aircraft were armed with "stand-off" Kelt Missiles. Devonshire's missile systems relied on manual firing and only the Commanding Officer could give that command. An airborne radar was detected operating in "Search" Mode and the ship went to action stations with both Director and Launcher tracking the target, at this point the General Operations Plot was started. As the target closed to a point where a "stand-off" weapon could be fired the characteristics of the airborne radar went from "Search" to "Acquired" Mode. The Gunnery Officer asked for permission to fire, the Captain refused and stated that he wanted visual confirmation as to the identification of the target aircraft. By this stage the 4.5" Guns on the Devonshire were also tracking the target. After a few minutes the Director Operator for the 4.5" Guns reported - "Aircraft, Aircraft, Aircraft, bearing whatever it was - aircraft identified as Boeing 707 - Civilian aircraft, repeat civilian aircraft". The Captain ordered all weapons systems to train on safe bearings. When the General Operations Plot was examined, the juncture at which the airborne radar went from Search to Acquired the aircraft, the ship and the radar beacon for Kuala Lumpur Airport were in line, the Captain of HMS Devonshire would have been perfectly justified in firing at that point, he chose not to.

Time had moved on a great deal from 1964 to 1988 the Captain of the USS Vincennes potentially faced a far higher threat level and did not have the luxury of choice open to the Captain of HMS Devonshire - It was why the Aegis Defence System was invented.

The Missile system that brought down the Malaysian Airliner is supposed to be used as part of an integrated air defence system designed to protect mobile armoured formations, used as it is supposed to be used and operated the target aircraft would have been identified, but if that mobile missile launcher was operated as I believe it was in this case "In Local" control then no such target identification would have been possible all the operator would have seen would have been a blip on his radar with no further information. He fired thinking that this was a Ukrainian Military Transport.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

"Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo."

Greg F., where did you get that statistic? Please provide the source for your statement, or did you just pull it out of thin air?
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

argely circumstantial evidence

Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:14 PM

There is overwhelming, but largely circumstantial evidence that Russian-backed rebels mistakenly brought down the Boeing 777, killing all 298 people on board, having mistaken it for a Ukrainian military aircraft.

It is almost certain the aircraft was brought down by a Russian-made SA-11 missile fired from a Buk mobile launcher that had crossed into Ukraine from Russia.

A spokesman for McCue & Partners said in a statement: "There has been talk of civil suits against Malaysia Airlines, but those immediately responsible are not only the separatists who are alleged to have fired the rocket at Flight MH17, causing the death of hundreds of innocent victims, but those, be they states, individuals or other entities, who provided them with financial and material support and the means to do so.

Vladimir Putin facing multi-million dollar lawsuit for aiding separatists who shot down MH17, lawyers say

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM

So was it "poor" identification or "misidentification" robomatic? The Iranian plane was signalling on a civilian channel (contrary to one of the Pentagon's lies), and contrary to the Vincennes crew's claims it was climbing towards 12000ft not diving towards the Vincennes from lower altitude. Big difference. Sounds like the US Navy was too confused to attempt much in the way of identification.

KAL007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor. And yes, I suppose the US is not as bad as the USSR. You must be proud.

What does "barely an attempt at identification" mean, and on what is that claim based? Maybe it would be wiser to wait till we know a bit more/ The Pentagon's behaviour re IAF655 should have taught us to be wary of early claims by one vested interest or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:28 PM

The shooting down of the Iranian jet by the Vincennes was uniquely horrible because it was due to poor or misidentification. The shooting down of KAL007 was uniquely horrible because it was properly identified as civilian and yet the Russian interceptor obeyed orders to shoot it down anyway. The shooting down of Malaysian MH17 was uniquely horrible because it was shot down almost casually with barely an attempt at identification.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

The commanding officer of another IS warship in the vicinity of the Vincennes said the atrocity "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago."

The way the US has behaved - the Pentagon's initial tissue of lies; VP Bush's crass response; honouring Captain Rogers; the refusal to apologise for a catastrophe entirely and unequivocally of its own making - is shameful. That the US now presumes to lecture Putin just beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

Iranian Flight 655 is still generating controversy. According to the commander of the Vincennes, they confused it with a Tomcat F-14A fighter (supplied to Iran by Grumann in the 1970s). They shot it down when they received no response to radio messages. The plane was emitting the typical signal, Mode III Civilian Code, but not Military Code II.

Although the U. S. did not apologize or admit legal responsibility for the blunder, it paid $61.8 million in compensation to relatives of passengers and crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

George H.W. Bush was and is a jackass & his son was and is an asshole. Sounds like the old "My country right or wrong" bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

The US reaps what it sows.

It set the standard for blowing civilian airliners out of the sky way back in 1988. And it set a precedent for Crimea's secession when it agitated for Kosovo's secession from Serbia.

It is interesting to recall what George Bush Snr said after Iranian Air Flight 655 was shot down with the loss of 290 lives, mainly women and including 60 children: ""I will never apologize for the United States—I don't care what the facts are." Whether he was speaking for all the American People I don't know, but it didn't do his presidential election campaign any harm.

There are times when the US would be well advised to keep quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,iain
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

In most parts of the world an airline passenger is subjected to all sorts of humiliating ordeals before being allowed to board a plane, in case they are potential shoebombers ot underpants bombers or terrorists of a similar ilk. Having carefully vetted all the passengers to ensure the aircfraft cannot be destroyed by any of the passengers, the governments responsible totally abrogate their responsibilities and allow the plane to fly through contested airspace where there is a war occurring 24/7.
This would seem a total disconnect to me.
What is the true function of all the security for boarding if the powers that be could not give a s***t once the plane is airbourne?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM

Mr. Parry now seems to be an apologist for the Russians.

The objective of Putin is obvious; having taken Crimea, he wants to add the Donbass region to Russia. The Separatists are well-armed with Russian equipment, and are the advance element of the move by Putin.
Russian aid has been well-documented by reporters from most media.

The Ukrainian government seems hopeless in attempting to deal with the pro-Russians and the Donetsk and Lugansk regions seem firmly under Separatist control.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:01 PM

Robert Parry is a highly respected journalist. Btw, the only proof the US has presented so far has been provided by the Ukraine government and consists of social media which is highly malleable and very easily manipulated. Read the transcript of this briefing: Zero Evidence from a highly based source.
Is this your "verified source"?

This is a false flag operation to vilify Russia and the separatists. It has an underlying agenda that has nothing to do with democracy in Ukraine. Recall the intelligence on Iraq weapons of mass destruction? It was false in tell used to get us into an ill advised war. Obviously the government can't be trusted when they say they have intelligence unless they present it.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:48 PM

"Consortiumnews"-- unverified blogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,UKIE GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

If you want the truth about what is behind the "Ukraine Crisis should go here 

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

Your "infowars" site is run by Alex Jones.

"] He has accused the U.S. government of being involved in the Oklahoma City bombing,[9] the September 11 attacks,[10] the filming of fake Moon landings to hide NASA's secret technology[11] and the killing of "thousands of astronauts".[12] He believes that government and big business have colluded to create a New World Order through "manufactured economic crises, sophisticated surveillance tech and—above all—inside-job terror attacks that fuel exploitable hysteria".[13] Jones describes himself as a libertarian and a paleoconservative. The Southern Poverty Law Center describes Jones as "the most prolific conspiracy theorist in contemporary America."[14]

In January 2013, Jones was invited to speak on Piers Morgan's show after promoting an online petition to deport Morgan due to his support of gun control laws.[48] The interview turned into "a one-person shoutfest, as Jones riffed about guns, oppressive government, the flag, his ancestors' role in Texan independence, and what flag Morgan would have on his tights if they wrestled".

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

The lack of satellite pics from the US suggests and reliance on youtube pics videos by American diplomats suggests to me that the information in this article may have substance to it.
"A source within the Ukrainian defense department claims that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was accidentally shot down by Ukrainian troops during a military exercise in near Donetsk which took place on July 17.

'"On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile," the source told RIA Novosti.

"Although actual use of the rockets was not intended, they were accidentally fired off when two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft flew parallel with but at a different altitude than the Boeing 777, claims the source. When the three aircraft merged and became a single dot on the missile 's radar system, the Buk-M1 automatically chose the larger target, leading to the demise of MH17.

It is worth noting that RIA Novosti is Russian state media, although the veracity of the story is no less credible than YouTube videos uploaded by the Ukrainian government, which have been relied upon by both Kiev and Washington as the main source of evidence for the contention that separatist rebels were responsible for downing the airliner.

"In addition, the information correlates with what former AP and Newsweek investigative journalist Robert Parry was told by his intelligence source, which was that the U.S. is in possession of satellite imagery which shows men wearing Ukrainian army uniforms firing the missile system that brought down MH17.

"Given that Parry won awards for his work exposing the Iran Contra scandal, one would imagine that he has built up some credible and influential sources over the past few decades.

"Kiev has failed to release transcripts from air traffic control communications which were seized by Ukrainian security services immediately after the incident, although pilots on board an Air India Dreamliner which was flying just 90 seconds behind Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 say they heard Ukrainian air traffic control give the order for the doomed plane to change route minutes before MH17 was shot down by a missile.

"Russia has presented radar evidence which it claims shows Ukrainian fighter jets in the vicinity of MH17 shortly before it was shot down.

http://www.infowars.com/kiev-source-ukraine-accidentally-shot-down-mh17-during-exercises/

*********************

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:57 AM

Would you say the plane was asking for it?

What is your view of girls who are raped walking after dark?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM

No it wasn't a normal route or considered safe :America's aviation authority had forbidden planes flying over that route. I don't know whether or not airplanes from other countries have since been banned .

It seems absolutely crazy that passengers have to spend hours going through airport check-ins , are not allowed to carry liquids aboard a flight and generally get snooped on by organizations like the NSA and GCHQ . At the same time airlines are allowed fly passengers over a war zone where these same state agencies claim armed terrorist militias operate who have the resources and mentalities to bring down airplanes.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:32 PM

Greg F the news has been showing that many planes flew over a similar route within the past week - it's a normal route and considered safe.
Normal commercial plane routes.
If you do Facebook, you can follow events as a memorial to one of the passengers, Cornelius, known as Cor Pan
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

Examples from history should be provided.

The U.S. alone provides thousands! e.g. Noriega. Iran-Contra. Bay of Pigs. Pinochet. The Mujahideen. & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:54 PM

Over 1.2 million Canadians are of Ukrainian origin.

The leaders of the Donetsk Republic are Russian citizens from Moscow. Edmonton Journal (Alberta).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:40 PM

The rebel forces are soldiers recruited from the Russian segment of the Ukraine, some with advanced training in Russia. According to some reports, actual citizens of Russia are involved, especially in the operation of the more sophisticated hardware.
They may be regarded as "terrorists" (Ukraine government) or "criminals" (some of the western press) or rebels, but they consider themselves to be Russian patriots.

Their missiles shot down two more Ukraine jets today; the Ukraine seems unable to use airpower against the Separatists.

Here in Alberta, with a large Ukrainian population (350,000) in the central belt centered on Edmonton, events are being closely watched. The fear is that the entire Ukraine will eventually be reabsorbed by Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM

Here's something I think should be taught in high school in all countries:

It's easy to hire criminals to do your dirty work, it's very hard to get them to stop when you want them to. This applies whether you are an industrialist, a rebel, a prime minister or a mob boss.

Examples from history should be provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

I know.
I do not think that Putin should arm them.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM

Southern Oblasts, from Kharkiv on the east, Odessa on the south, and Moldova on the west, are considered by Separatists to be part of Novorossiya.

This area probably will be united with Russia in the next three years. The Crimea already has been absorbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM

They are very well armed and dressed, but they are untrained civilians in Russian army kit.
They are indisciplined and unaccountable to anyone.
The aviation inspectors were turned back by some who were drunk and firing in the air.
It is scary that they are playing around with such things as high-altitude sams.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

The pro-Russian fighters are well-armed and dressed, and under a unified command. Some division leaders may act too much on their own, but I would not call these rebels "rag-tag."

With the formation of the Donetsk Peoples Republic, and the Lugansk Peoples Republic, now merged into the Federal State of Novorossiya, they are the advance forces of the Russian takeover of the eastern part of Ukraine.

Igor Girkin is in charge of the military forces.

The region is known as Donbass to Russians, and by them has long been considered an integral part of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

You like to think something flying at 38,000' at almost 600 mph needs hardware only government forces have access to..

Agree Musket.
The real issue is Putin delivering powerful and sophisticated weaponry to rag-tag militias.
Also to Assad's Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:43 AM

If I think of recent flights over the last year alone I have been on, I noticed we have flown over the disputed Azeri / Armenian zone, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Northern Thailand... (For Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bangkok and Durban.). Looking at Google Earth, I am sure Ukraine too, the others are ones I noticed when looking at the in flight "where the hell are we" screens.

You like to think something flying at 38,000' at almost 600 mph needs hardware only government forces have access to....

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:29 AM

The decision is left to individual airlines.
BA did not overfly.

Had this not happened, we should still be concerned about Putin's policy towards Ukraine, especially his supplying powerful weaponry to the separatists.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:19 PM

Hey, John: ya gotts to assume some intelligence on the part of the airline folks not to route flights thru a war zone -

Or in this case, not.

Stupidity has its consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:56 PM

The last several posts seem to be blaming the victims (the Airline and IATA) for MH17 being shot down. Civilian aircraft had been flying that route, just outside the hot zone without incident. Some trigger happy Russian or Russian proxy fired that missile either on purpose or by mistake...the result is still the same. Period end of story; don't blame the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

IATA represents some 240 major carriers; it has complained, but did not warn its members away from the Ukraine.

The U. S. and I believe the UK forbid flights over the territory.

Iain, I agree, I can't understand why IATA didn't issue a general warning.

Perhaps, because the path is used by many carriers, they failed to act because jet fuel costs would have increased for the airlines using that path.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:03 PM

Surely the real question to be asked is why a commercial airline was overflying a known warzone? To put passengers's lives at risk just to save a bit of jet fuel strikes me as being crimminally irresponsible.
Whenever a ragtag semi guerilla army has it's hands in the toybox of modern munitions it is a pretty safe bet that events will occurr that should not. To further add to the confusion many varied agendas are being pursued in the area. This makes pointing the finger accurately almost impossible. Perhaps the real truth will emerge several decades down the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM

The wreckage was picked over not only by the rebels but by nearby dwellers seeking cash and valuables. BBC news and photos.

Now two experts have found a piece of wreckage with evidence of fragments from a Buk missile. NY Times, today.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM

What have the rebels been doing to the wreckage, so busily all these days?
Nothing should have been touched before the investigation team got there.
I can think of no innocent explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM

It doesn't get much more disgusting than this: The Malaysia Airlines Corpses Were Used as a Sickening PR Stunt for the Ukrainian Rebels' Fake Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

I think enough of the facts are in, and now the mud is being spread. You can identify the parties and the spreading ink. From this point, the argument will be over what constitutes 'fact'.

My sympathies to the Netherlanders! And everyone on Malaysian Air Flight 17, and to their relatives and loved ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

Fook me, he can't even ignore people successfully..

Sorry, I shouldn't accuse old codgers of getting a stiffy. Double insult and all that. Luckily, it was a metaphorical stiffy eh?

The problem is, he wants me to behave like a gentleman. Presumably wants me to take a glove off, waft it in his face and call him a cad for joining in the encouragement of Israeli bombing of civilians.

Gentleman... Let me see now.

"If you were a gentleman, you wouldn't have done that!"

"If you were a lady, you wouldn't speak with your mouth full."

Whoops, that's buggered my chances of vacating his sulky step.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM

Caught the tailend of another bit of Musketry -- can't always help it. It's bits like

"getting a hard on from upsetting others"

that deter me from reading any of his posts if my eye can avoid them. Can he really not find more seemly modes of expression? Nasty little vulgarian. Did he, I wonder, carry on like that in meetings of all those important bodies [NHS Trusts & suchlike IIRC] that he never tires of telling us he used to chair, & was honoured by HMQ for doing so? If not, then why should we have to put up with it? Still up on the sulky step till he learns to behave something like a gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

U.S. publishes trajectory of missile it says downed MH17

Video of Buk missile launcher in the town of Snizhne

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:59 AM

It isnt just an excuse to mock, not that I for one need an excuse for pointing and laughing at people who should know better..

Its how unhelpful they can be. A teacher friend told of when talking of Newtonian concepts, he spoke of the relative weight and constant mass of the astronauts on the moon and one boy pointed his father, who was not to be contradicted, told him it was a desert in Arizona etc. The poor boy ran schoolboy cruelty for months after that.

Granted, I told mine the first wind farms we ever saw were to combat global warming by cooling the fields and that the large black plastic sacks in fields after cutting the hay were in fact sleeping bags for cows on night shift.

The time such things become dangerous is when conspiracy grows legs and muddies the search for truth.

The relatives of Princess Diana and Dodi al Fayed must hurt like fuck whilst irresponsible insensitive bastards enjoy their little games, getting a hard on from upsetting others.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

I can understand people mocking conspiracy theories after official inquiries have concluded . In the case of Flight MH17, people who pointed to the lack of proof about the downing being the work of pro-Russian rebels were being called conspiracy loons within hours of the plane hitting the ground .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:30 AM

Even Wackipedia goes only so far as to say there that MM and JFK "reportedly" had an affair.

Doesn't quite add up to murder, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:21 AM

Eeh. As Bob Hoskins once famously said, "It's nice to talk."

Perhaps you could review some of my essays, as you like reading what I put?

I reckon I am going to hide a few cherry bombs inside long paragraphs for you. We'll soon have you off the sulking step...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:01 AM

Re post above: I avoid, as is known, even reading posts from the egregious Mather, let alone responding; but as I have said before, one's own name leaps out, and one has read before being aware who the poster is, which is what has happened here; and for once in a way, I feel a response to the general point is required in my own interests.

Far from being a pushover for trendy conspiracy theories, I despise pretty well every one of them. I am sure that Neil Armstrong walked on the Moon not on the Utah desert. I am convinced that Myra Hindley died in Holloway & was buried, and that they didn't surreptitiously release her and bury a coffin full of bricks because they knew that public opinion would not countenance her ever getting out...

Nevertheless: as to both Marilyn Monroe & ex-Princess Diana, OTOH, their deaths were just too peculiarly convenient to certain well-placed personages, and both died in a fashion that any apprentice special-agent could engineer in his sleep; to say nothing of such awkward questions as, would a trusted and experienced professional driver ever have allowed himself to get drunk while at work with a distinguished passenger, unless his drinks had been spiked or interfered with in some way? So I continue, to put it no higher, to suspect that both these not dissimilar deaths were probably not accidental or suicidal, but contrived. That is the current limit of my alleged addiction to belief in any such nefarious phenomena.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:48 AM

Gather round and read the post above.

One of those internet conspiracy theories that we read about... PM it to Michael rather than post it, he is into that sort of thing.