Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Folk Clubs Dying Out

GUEST,Mandoman77 22 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM
Richard Bridge 22 Jul 14 - 06:39 AM
Roger the Skiffler 22 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM
Nick 22 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM
The Sandman 22 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 22 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM
GUEST 22 Jul 14 - 07:20 AM
The Sandman 22 Jul 14 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,big al whittle 22 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 22 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM
Les in Chorlton 22 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,OldNicKilby 22 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM
Musket 22 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Peter 22 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM
Nick 22 Jul 14 - 09:08 AM
TheSnail 22 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM
Les in Chorlton 22 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Peter 22 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM
Vic Smith 22 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM
Paul Davenport 22 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Mandoman77 22 Jul 14 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Eric_Sharp 22 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM
Vic Smith 22 Jul 14 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Mandoman77 22 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM
r.padgett 22 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM
Steve Gardham 22 Jul 14 - 03:03 PM
Musket 22 Jul 14 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Mandoman77 22 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,davemc 22 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM
Herga Kitty 22 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM
Herga Kitty 22 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM
Musket 22 Jul 14 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Roger in Baltimore 22 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,FloraG 23 Jul 14 - 04:31 AM
Paul Davenport 23 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,Graham Carter 23 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Mandoman77 23 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,matt milton 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,Fyldeplayer 23 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,matt milton 23 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM
GUEST 23 Jul 14 - 07:27 AM
Musket 23 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM
Dave Sutherland 23 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM
Nick 23 Jul 14 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 23 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM
Nick 23 Jul 14 - 09:48 AM
TheSnail 23 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM
The Sandman 23 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM
r.padgett 23 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM
Nick 23 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM
davidharley 23 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Steve 23 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM
The Sandman 23 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Oggie 23 Jul 14 - 03:27 PM
TheSnail 23 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM
The Sandman 23 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Oggie 23 Jul 14 - 05:46 PM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 14 - 06:50 PM
The Sandman 24 Jul 14 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,FloraG 24 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM
GUEST 24 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 24 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM
GUEST 24 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Brimbacombe 24 Jul 14 - 09:52 AM
The Sandman 24 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM
The Sandman 24 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Jon Dudley 24 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM
Jack Campin 24 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM
TheSnail 24 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Desi C 24 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM
Dave Sutherland 24 Jul 14 - 12:25 PM
The Sandman 24 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Ed 24 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,oggie 24 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 24 Jul 14 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,FloraG 24 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM
TheSnail 24 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM
GUEST 24 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM
Jack Campin 24 Jul 14 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,FloraG 25 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM
Tattie Bogle 25 Jul 14 - 06:13 AM
The Sandman 25 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Vic Smith 25 Jul 14 - 06:52 PM
The Sandman 26 Jul 14 - 02:38 AM
TheSnail 26 Jul 14 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,ST 26 Jul 14 - 05:01 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 14 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Mandoman77 26 Jul 14 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,big al whittle 26 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM
Musket 26 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM
The Sandman 26 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM
The Sandman 26 Jul 14 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,raggytash 26 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM
TheSnail 26 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,tony Rath aka Tonyteach 26 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,big al whittle 26 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM
growler 26 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 14 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Rachel 26 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,kenny 27 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM
Tattie Bogle 27 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 27 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,FloraG 27 Jul 14 - 04:44 AM
The Sandman 27 Jul 14 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Peter 27 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach 27 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,big al whittle 27 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM
The Sandman 27 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM
mikesamwild 27 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,big al whittle 27 Jul 14 - 04:21 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Rachel 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Mandoman77 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM
The Sandman 27 Jul 14 - 07:05 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,# 27 Jul 14 - 09:22 PM
Stanron 28 Jul 14 - 12:07 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 14 - 12:56 AM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,kenny 28 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM
Richard Mellish 28 Jul 14 - 05:29 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM
Will Fly 28 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM
GUEST 28 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM
TheSnail 28 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Mandoman77 28 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM
Tattie Bogle 28 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM
The Sandman 28 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM
Musket 28 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,FloraG 29 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM
Vic Smith 29 Jul 14 - 05:50 AM
GUEST 29 Jul 14 - 06:04 AM
GUEST 29 Jul 14 - 10:21 AM
TheSnail 29 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Mandoman77 29 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,FloraG 30 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM
Rob Naylor 30 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM
Vic Smith 30 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,The Goose Is Out! 30 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Mandoman77 30 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,SqueezeMe 30 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM
Vic Smith 30 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 30 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Peter 30 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM
Vic Smith 30 Jul 14 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,chris 30 Jul 14 - 12:15 PM
oggie 30 Jul 14 - 06:38 PM
Rob Naylor 31 Jul 14 - 02:36 AM
Richard Mellish 31 Jul 14 - 03:03 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Mandoman77 31 Jul 14 - 06:46 PM
The Sandman 31 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Ed 31 Jul 14 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,Mandoman77 01 Aug 14 - 12:00 PM
Betsy 01 Aug 14 - 06:12 PM
The Sandman 02 Aug 14 - 04:06 AM
r.padgett 02 Aug 14 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Mandoman77 02 Aug 14 - 06:01 AM
Betsy 02 Aug 14 - 06:13 AM
Brian Peters 02 Aug 14 - 07:53 AM
The Sandman 02 Aug 14 - 09:11 AM
Jack Campin 02 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Aug 14 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,FloraG 03 Aug 14 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 03 Aug 14 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 03 Aug 14 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,bathfolkfest 03 Aug 14 - 07:10 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM
The Sandman 03 Aug 14 - 07:58 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM

Am I imagining it or are Folk Clubs slowly dying out? It seems to me that as the generation who set these clubs up slow drop of the edge, there is nothing to replace them. Open Mic's are popular and these days proliferate so is this the future, if so I fear for Folk Music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:39 AM

There seems to be a bit of an influx of younger acoustic people into some folk clubs and song sessions. I even noticed that Morris dancers are getting younger (or is that me getting older?).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

If you think the folk audience is getting old and sparse you should see the jazz clubs!
RtS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM

You heard it here first


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM

it is up to people particularly young people to support home made acoustic music, they must start running their own clubs , places where people go to listen. I do not fear for folk clubs or folk music. people were saying this in the 1980s, probably before people like Nick were born.
Get off your backsides and start organising,
an excellent role is model woody guthrie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM

I think we are going to see more Trad. based singers clubs and singing weekends, where nobody gets paid. This is a good thing for all concerned, and I believe it will have a positive effect on clubs and festivals and will regenerate both when the wheels turns again. The interest is there and it will come out sooner or later. I might have a full gig diary by the time I'm 80! or better still some youngsters will have musically matured to take my place. Don't worry Folk Music is safe, it's tougher than all of us put together.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:20 AM

Young people seem to prefer festivals. They are more fun than going to a folk club where the grey heads can be pretty serious. People are still singing about coal miners when most young people have never seen a piece of coal!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 07:30 AM

what an uninformed remark from anonymous guest people in folk clubs sing about many things other than coal miners,if young people want to be in their own age group they would in my opinion be well advised start their own folk clubs, why? because clubs are about communities, festivals can tend to be some extent them and us, the stars entertaining the consumers, which smacks of the pop world, the stars sometimes become stars because of clever hype and publicity. in my opinion singers clubs, guestbooking clubs and festivals are all needed, so that ideally there is a graduation and a ladder where performers can move upwards on merit, not suddenly become stars because they have been hyped, those shooting stars disappear the next morning.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

we'll have to see. those of us who are lucky enough to survive. when i think of some of the crap i've sat through -its amiracle its lasted so long really.

i'm afraid GGS's imploring young peopleto form folk clubsreminds me uneasily of john donne's invitation to young lovers to study the stones in the graveyard - nocturnal on st lucies day. great man though Dick is.

it will be their world - their call. the world we grew up in won't be the one they have to take on. that was our parent's mistake - they thought their knowledge and insights were so substantial that we couldn't do without them.

not only had we to tear the rule book up -we had to endure seeing our government taken over by backward looking reactionary cadres that had to be resisted every inch of the way.

don't let's make the same mistake.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

Perhaps the vast majority of young people don't want to play or listen to folk music or go to folk clubs? I know I didn't when I was one - too busy soaking up the adrenalin buzz of punk! Round my way there are loads of kids who play instruments, but folk isn't really on their radars, and why should it be? I never used to want to listen to the same stuff as my parents and their friends, and to be frank I still don't...

Having said that, my neighbour took his dad and his teenage son top see Neil Young and Crazy Horse, so there is some stuff that spans the generations... Just not necessarily folk.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

Hey Mr Cringe we haven't had the pleasure of yourself for time what could possibly be called our 'Folk Club':


Beech Band at The Dulcimer

Cheers

Les


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

Dick, you are correct, there are far too many "Vunder-kinder". with little talent apart from a degree in hype. Soon ripe, soon forgotten or was it rotten. Folk Clubs can be in my experience be almost "Care in the Community " depositories. Some are superb well run with singers of immeasurable skill and ability with thoughtful song repertoires. Almost always un-assuming, singing for the sheer love of the music and democratic in the allocation of slots. Singing sessions will survive as will Home based events, who wants to sit in a scruffy pub back room. The worst I remember was, we were told we could sit in the Back Yard. The Gents Urinals had been over-flowing for so long that there was a thick layer of salts and stench all the way to the drain.. It is performers like Dick that we need to survive to form the basis of a skills datum to make sure that younger people can see the road ahead


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM

We do seem to call open singarounds folk clubs..

I suppose for me, folk club is a term of nostalgia. I stopped going to any for a few years, what with working away a lot, raising a family and whatnot. When I decided to get back into it, they had gone from an audience and small corner / stage affair to people sat around with pieces of paper in front of them. When you sing a song for them, try not to look at those you think are listening as they are often rummaging through their books to see which 3 chord Tom Paxton they think you will be thrilled to hear next, once this bloke who insists on standing, introducing his songs and playing ones you don't get in "100 Pub Songs for Guitar and Piano" has stopped playing.

Mind you, there is small hope. I once said I was to sing a Child ballad. Afterwards, a bloke corrected me to say it wasn't a Child song at all, as Martin Carthy must have written it as it was on an album of his, his father lent him. But that's Leeds for you...

Sorry, been a long day already....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:50 AM

Perhaps people just aren't looking for the youngsters in the right places.

Some clubs are definitely going to fail in the next 10 or 15 years as their organisers fall of the perch. What is replacing them isn't necessarily in the classic club format of guests and floor spots but does have a lot of younger folk fans.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 09:08 AM

Dick you make me feel so young. :)

I used to help a friend in running a folk club back in the 1970's. I didn't start my own one until the 90's though it was more of the communal let's-all-get-stuck-in-and-play-and-sing-together rather than the formal sit in rows and listen sort.

And I never knew Woody Guthrie was a model. Did he do that when he wasn't singing to supplement his income perhaps? A bit like Twiggy and Jean Shrimpton?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM

What is replacing them isn't necessarily in the classic club format of guests and floor spots but does have a lot of younger folk fans.

Wnenever this sort of discussion comes up someone always says something like that. So what is it? Where is it? Or is it being kept secret so us oldies don't get to find out about it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

"The Gents Urinals had been over-flowing for so long that there was a thick layer of salts and stench all the way to the drain"

We still dream of that


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM

Depends where you are. In London try Softly Softly, Jamboree, Upstairs at The Ritzy, The Glad, The Harrison, Nest Collective, Ceilidh Club and more that I can't remember.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:44 AM

So what is it? Where is it? Or is it being kept secret so us oldies don't get to find out about it?
Well, in our area, Brian, they are just venues that put on gigs. The venues do not present "genre-specific" music but folk gigs take their place amongst other types of music.
For example, Tina and I went to an event recently at the Green Door Store under Brighton Station. Main artist was the wonderful Glaswegian singer who we have booked a few times at the Royal Oak, Alasdair Roberts. The support was local singer, Elle Osborne.
The size of audience was about the same as when we booked him but much younger. Alasdair's repertoire and presentation style was no different from the way he put things over in a folk club. We were a good twice older than the next oldest person there. I was amazed to see the attentive young audience hanging on his every word as he sang a string of traditional ballads with no compromise using a small but efficient and not over loud PA. he sang to his own guitar and had an excellent pianist with him.
When we arrived and Tina saw that it was a standing venue, she said, "Oh no! I can't stand all night!", The young doorman told us to hang on and he rushed off and came back with a couple of seats for us. He came up to us to ask if we were all right at the interval and again to check that we had enjoyed the evening at the end. We would not have been made more welcome if we were making a first visit to a folk club.
There are a number of venues that operate like this in Brighton that we have been to, a couple in Hastings and the Underground Theatre in Eastbourne. They don't advertise in THE FOLK DIARY but if you seek them out, their publicity is good and generally they are well run.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM

I suppose it depends on where you are placed geographically. Liz and I have been travelling around recently just for the hell of it and have discovered that folk clubs, far from being a dying phenomenon, seem to be cropping up all over the place. But…they are now more likely to be monthly than weekly events as in the past. They are also less likely to book artists from outside their area. However, the scene is pretty vibrant at the moment. I was at a club last night that I'd never been to before. It's run by people in their 20s and its trad enough to have caused us to review our set list before going on. It was like travelling back in time, one act actually looked like Tim Hart & Maddy Prior as I remembered them from back in 1968! They had a similar repertoire too. A fresh and lovely evening that I shall make sure I repeat.
This is not unusual in our experience and I could also wax lyrical about the Devonshire club that sported a Dylan look and soundalike, so well observed that it was again like time-travel. They're out there folks but perhaps we are actually lamenting the loss of paid gigs rather than the loss of folk clubs per se?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 12:42 PM

Virtually all the clubs in our area, "the midlands that is", are being run by the same people who set them up twenty or thirty years ago. All seem to be struggling, with lower audience numbers, higher artists fees, smoking bans, beer prices etc etc. Its unrealistic to expect young people to take on the responsibility of club running. Its true there are just as many people out there who wish to perform, but the Open Mic route is now the preference of many. Where does that leave Folk Clubs?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Eric_Sharp
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

Any musical format and genre has a lifespan. Folk music as it was, for example Kerns and Ceilidhs, has long ago ceased to be, and we are in the second or third revival depending on your historical perspective. The kids now attend open mics and festivals. But the term 'folk' is hardly used. Perhaps as well, as it came out of a flawed 19th century mystical view. I have been attending folk clubs for 45 years, and I am not sure if they have another generation in them. But live music is alive and well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:49 PM

Its unrealistic to expect young people to take on the responsibility of club running.

Is it? Why is it? I was running my college folk club before I was 20 then started one in south London as soon as I left college.

....being run by the same people who set them up twenty or thirty years ago.

... and how old were they when they started running clubs? How old was Sam Lee when he started his very successful venture?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

It seems to me that your experience Vic does not represent the situation generally. Of course some new clubs will form, but my observation is that the overall situation is one of decline. When you say "how old were they when they started running clubs", thats the point the next generation is not taking up the baton.

I do think it is unrealistic to expect young people to take on the responsibility of running clubs, particularly the financial responsibility. In our day we had full employment, no University Fees to pay back, stable and accessible house prices, and many other things I could mention.

The days of the folk Club are numbered, the Open Mic for all its drawbacks is the future, better get used to it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

I am not infavour of Open Mic sessions these (with pa) and yes you can have an Open Mic without pa only serve to benefit the pa guy who gets paid and the publican who gets clientelle. Singers get what? experience with the pa and that's it

The Wakefield sessions in Fernandes and Bull and Fairhouse are well attended normally with room for audience and friends and give good order for singers and musicians

Barnsley folk club is not a Concert club and this can cause problems as we have DOERS who want to sing/play and some dedicated AUDIENCE ~ like many clubs audiences need to be developed and clubs need to attract people to come and be entertained by a range of singers and musicians. It is no longer the Mission of Folk clubs to provide a living (part time or other) to folk artists, CONCERT CLUBS are another matter!

Individual folk clubs have their own reason for being and certainly we (THE FOLK CLUBS) should be doing more to encourage all comers whoever and what ever they do which is "folk" ~ don't ask me to define folk though please

Other venues and pubs and halls as alternatives to the folk clubs are coming more into the picture

Everyone is looking for an Audience, and my view is that nothing should be taken for granted and artists have a duty to put back into the clubs their experience, the cheek of some acts to ask for bookings without considering the potential audience available is sometimes baffling

Clubs should not book artists who they do not wish to see and then make excuses when no one turns up!

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:03 PM

In places where the old guard have allowed things to evolve, like Sheffield, there is a vibrant scene with plenty of mixed generations. In Hull where we didn't see the writing on the wall until it was too late there are massive gaps. The younger generation have largely gone off and done their own thing and they seldom meet together with the old guard despite some attempts to join up the dots. Sad really!

BUT folk music is alive and well in the festivals. What's the problem?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:04 PM

Yeah but Ray... Go back 35 years when you ran The Wheatsheaf and Mitch, Annie and I ran The Boundary. We both had huge successful clubs that put on paid acts (remember when Stirrings ran a list of those who would come for 75% of door takings?) and floor nights gave the appearance of concert for people getting up?

I don't recall a single reading a country and western song from a book, and I do recall good beer, a good laugh and thoughtful memorable friends.

We can't bring it back but still, those comparing today's night out with a song are comparing chalk & cheese.

Get yer bum over to Epworth one night.

Ian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM

The problem is Steve how ever popular Festivals are, the Folk Club is in decline. The Festivals grew out from the Clubs, if the Clubs disappear maybe the Festival will follow. I hope not, but I can see a time when festivals will not be supportable on the basis of just one style of music, so multi event festivals may be the future, and perhaps thats not such a bad thing, as all ages and styles will then have to mix in.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,davemc
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM

Hardly ever go to my local folk club, these days. I'd rather see folk acts in arts centres and other comfortable venues where I don't have to humour resident singers who get in the way of the act I've really come to see. The tickets cost much more but the enjoyment, in my view, is usually greater.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM

It's harder for clubs to find venues where people feel comfortable performing and listening - as mentioned above by Mandoman777, you can't expect young people to take on the financial responsibility of paying for a room and paying artists and hoping to get enough bums on seats if it's a concert club, but even finding venues for informal singarounds and open stage clubs without paid guests is tricky, especially if the venue has to be paid for.

Kitty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM

Davemc - ok you prefer concerts, but where do you think the performers acquired their performance skills in front of audiences...?

Kitty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM

I really only started to get an interest in "folk" when I was looking for an open mic, following the closure of another open mic.
the folk club alternated open mic and singaround, with guests also, which it seems were paid largely from raffle proceeds, though I think the landlord also chipped in.
I find that most young people are in the open mic scene , and I have often been encouraged by young interest in my songs.....though admittedly I am not exactly traditional folk. but I have also seen folk acts well received by all ages at open mics.
so it may well be that for interest in folk to stay healthy that the emphasis needs to be on acoustic and open mic, rather than appear specialist.

on the subject of performers using books or sheets, or these days I-pads on music stands, i think it best not to complain, unless you want even less participants. having said that, it is discouraging to see everyone else fussing about what they will do next, and hardly anyone listening.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:20 PM

That's the problem with the real world.

I endorse everything pete just said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Roger in Baltimore
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM

I currently live in musically sparse location (if you don't count bluegrass. There are three "folk clubs" within a hundred miles of me. These are church venues who offer folk music on a once a month basis. Before I left Baltimore (which has one club run by the same dedicated people) that presents music a few times each month.

What I still hear a lot about are House Concerts. These are performances in people's home that accept donations. In Washington, D.C. they still exist, and I suspect in Baltimore.

I remember the "'60's" when there were regular places where music was presented on a near daily basis. In Baltimore I attended "The Foghorn" and in D.C. "The Cellar Door". There were more I attended, but my memory does not evoke them.

Folk Music is not as popular as it was back then, but it still exists and it is still presented, just not with as much regularity. There are young people who are presenting and they add their own personalities to the music. There is a thriving system for singersongwriters individually in groups. Much of what I hear is "new music" with is presented acoustically by itinerant musicians. So the music has evolved. We can play traditional or we can play "new music."

Much changes, but there is still much music.

Roger in Baltimore


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:31 AM

I've just come back from Tolpuddle. For those who have not heard of it, its the location of 6 agricultural workers who were sentenced to transportation for union oath swearing. Each year the TUC put on a weekend festival and march the union banners up the high street.
I am always surprised at the number of musicians/singers who go - not just the paid acts. Many write their own songs - often on the protest side.
Artic monkies pay your tax
its our money and we want it back etc.
There is a wide age range.
I do wonder where they go the rest of the year. I certainly have not seen them at my local folk club.
FloraG.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM

Steve Gardham writes; 'In places where the old guard have allowed things to evolve, like Sheffield, there is a vibrant scene with plenty of mixed generations.'
The story there is a salutary one; the old guard didn't 'allow' things to evolve, they created the evolution! Basically two things happened at the same time. Firstly, the South Riding Folk Network was created to 'join up the dots' and secondly the University 'Folk Society' changed its name to the 'Ceilidh Society' or 'CeilidhSoc'. The movers and shakers at the Uni were involved with, and even become officers of, the SRFN and we all played and danced together for a long time. Sheffield's folk life ad the very successful Sheffield Folk Sessions Festival (see; http://www.sheffieldseshfest.org.uk )   
are all the result of a lot of people's hard work and dedication over many years.
By the way, please visit the website and, better still, come and try our festival over next Easter weekend.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

there are people who state categorically that something is the future [how do they know?]if you can predict the future please tell us all the winning lottery numbers.
one sensible person Vic Smith talks from his own experience [he was welcomed]. open mike is not good it encourages the music to be treated as background music, this music should be shown the same respect as classical music ,the words are important and it needs to be LISTENED too, the sooner open mic goes out of fashion the better in my opinion


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Graham Carter
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

We started a new Folk Club in Strathaven, South Lanarkshire recently which has proved popular and been well attended by young and old alike. As a performer myself it gradually dawned on me that it's no good moaning about lack of suitable places to play if you aren't prepared to do something about it yourself. Having been a regular attender and performer at Folk Clubs for several years now, I can't speak highly enough of them. If you want to learn about Folk Music and meet people who walk the walk and talk the talk, they are THE place to go. Where else can you meet people who have seen Big Bill Broonzy live!   I hope others take the plunge and get some more new clubs on the go.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM

We are all entitled to put our opinions on the future GSS, you should not dismiss them just because you don't agree them. Whilst I understand where you are coming from, things are evolving and its better to along with it, than to keep harking back to a world that no longer exists.

My early contact with Folk Clubs was in the days of the Clancy Bros, Spinners, McCalmans, Corries, Diz Disley, Derek Brimstone, Jasper Carrot etc etc, all of which usually involved singing our heads off by 11pm. However, somewhere along the line something changed and it became an exercise in navel gazing, being thoughtful, being responsible, the agony of the worlds problems and the like. Whilst I would not wish to make light of such things, its not going to form the basis of a good night out. Now I don't know if this has anything to do with the demise of the Folk Club, but it sure can't help.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 AM

Folk Club according to model of floorsingers and guests, with a trad-only policy etc, yes that'll probably die out within 20 years.

But I don't see why regular acoustic nights that encourage traditional singing, with a mix of singer-songwriter and "Proper Folk" stuff shouldn't continue til the earth becomes uninhabitable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM

Having spent a lot of time recently digging the internet for club info in hope of gigs/contact, I find a high percentage of 'folk club' links end at what is clearly a non-guest oriented gathering, fine, I attend similar which is titled Acoustic Club.

I think there is two issues changing 'folk clubs' young musical people generally hanging out 'somewhere??' other than FC's and older people with some dosh prefering the comfort and style of concert venues.

This is however a very localised 'southern' view - I expect a bigger view as described by Paul Davenport would show otherwise.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM

There'll always be young people who are interested in folk, but they'll always be small in number and they'll invariably want to sing their own songs that they've written as well as trad ones. That's just how it is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:27 AM

A lot of clubs have "painted themselves into the corner" by developing a demographic where the youngest person in the club is well over 50. You aren't going to get an influx of twenty somethings once a club has reached that position.

The few club organisers who are under 40 need to be aware of how that problem developed and work continuously on keeping a demographic spread and not letting the club develop into a group of mates who all left school within a few years of each other.

I agree with GSS (which makes a change) on the value of the club format in developing not only performers but also the appreciation of the music by the audience. However it certainly isn't my place to tell others that their chosen way of experiencing music is wrong and mine is right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM

Two variables;

Folk versus what the hell is folk anyway?

Singaround versus audience


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

"Folk Club according to model of floorsingers and guests, with a trad-only policy etc, yes that'll probably die out within 20 years."
I seem to remember that being said back in 1991 when we started up Traditions at the Tiger/Tigerfolk.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:17 AM

I can predict the future. These are all the winning lottery numbers for ALL the forthcoming weeks -
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49
All you have to do is pick out a few each week...

We have a very well known and supported Folk Club in the Black Swan in York (mostly a concert venue with a singers night once a month) but Roland has his hands full each year - and a measure of risk - in choosing a diverse range of acts across a year that will attract bums onto seats and keep the clubs finances on an even keel. He manages it very well but he can't really predict what works and what doesn't even with his (good) judgement based on years of doing it.

It ranges from unaccompanied singers (Hissyfit were well received and supported recently) to bands either at the pub or at a larger concert venue.

There are buckets of people though who come to something like Steve Knightley playing in our local village hall (I know a fair number of people but recognised perhaps a tenth of the audience). There are a whole other group of people who go to festivals and pubs and see a band like this - Holy Moly and the Crackers who you would not see at a folk club. And you probably wouldn't see the (young) people in the band at a folk club even if their roots are (self professed) in folk amongst other genres. I pick them because I know some of them through my son and have enjoyed a sing with them in the past in a local pub and at a party in their house; they are typical of many similar groups of people appealing to people of a range of ages.

I think this discussion has been had many times on here.

Folk clubs have this weird personality disorder. To those who don't go to them they have an image of jumpers, beards, fingers in ears and long unaccompanied dirges with lots of death; they aren't. To those who used to go but don't so much they are places that have become divorced from their roots of proper folk music because its purity has been tainted over time; they probably aren't this either. To those who go they are curious mix of wannabe players who may either be good or not supporting artists who will put bums on seats and be something linked to a broad definition of folk.

I'm sure that the ones that do well are the ones who have a very clear idea of what they are doing and delivering to a known (and hopefully evolving) audience, and have a clear idea of market they are in without a need to compromise their vision. Whatever that vision is.

I haven't been to Lewes but, from the outside, am pretty sure that they will survive and grow as they seem very clear on what they do. The Black Swan will keep going for as long as Roland and his team of helpers and supporters choose. Somewhere like Wigan folk club (which I haven't been to for a long time) was a very well supported but very different sort of place. Swinton was another that comes to mind.

My personal experience has been that it is difficult to maintain something that is relatively broad church. There seems a constant pressure for factions to convert a club/gathering into their particular narrower passion. Depending on how popular that particular interest is to other listeners is where it either succeeds or falls on its ass.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

unfortunately, good soldier, s, I find that going to a folk club is not always a guarantee that everyone listens, but thankfully on the other hand sometimes most people at an open mic might mostly listen.
wishing open mics away might not benefit folk by disappearing. folkies at open mics, might even broaden musical interests.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

i am entitled to dismiss opinions on the future, because the future is unpredictable


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:48 AM

The one certainty about the future is that it is unpredictable.

Or is it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

GUEST,Peter
In London try Softly Softly, Jamboree, Upstairs at The Ritzy, The Glad, The Harrison, Nest Collective, Ceilidh Club and more that I can't remember.

Thanks, Peter. That tells me some of the "where" but I'm not sure it helps with the "what". Apart from the excellent Nest Collective which few of us can hope to emulate it seems to be a rag bag of sessions and events barely distinguishable from folk clubs. Perhaps the critical factor is selected acts and "No Bloody Floor Singers".

Vic, the Alasdair Roberts, Elle Osborne event sounds great but I take it they didn't offer you a floor spot. Two well established professionals providing quality entertainment but how did they get there? I first remember Elle as a teenager doing floor spots at the Royal Oak. Would she have got where she is without folk clubs?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM

ic, the Alasdair Roberts, Elle Osborne event sounds great but I take it they didn't offer you a floor spot. Two well established professionals providing quality entertainment but how did they get there? I first remember Elle as a teenager doing floor spots at the Royal Oak. Would she have got where she is without folk clubs?
good points


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM

I certainly applaud all the initiatives which have been instigated as well as those in Sheffield which have afforded the necessary exposure to folk song traditional music etc

Sheffield is a two University city and as such has a large catchment of students as well as many other people from other Nations and Irish and Scottish ~ this has helped foster the playing of music in the pubs and of course specific work on Sword dancing by Ron Day and Paul Davenport and continuation of Ceildihs has all contributed to folks future development ~ outside of folk clubs and Concert clubs

Wakefield is a City but devoid of Universities has few folk clubs but similarly has live folk music and traditional song sessions, sadly few youngsters have made it yet, however Sarah Horn has recently graduated with degree in Physics and was encouraged by her school music teacher [Graham] and is now a highly accomplished fiddler. Watch this space ~ I believe she and James Cudworth are at Warwick ff this year

Amy Condrey is an other name to watch, who has been at college in Barnsley

BTW I am more than happy for new initiatives in Barnsley, for example Alan Jones's Celtic session and Flash sessions have all raised the local scene and attracted excellent comments about live music

Takes years to develop musicianship and longer for singers unless naturally gifted
Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM

York also benefits from a university and there has always been a fair degree of cross over between the university and the various venues in York itself - for example the Victoria Vaults Friday night session is always generally frequented by a fair number of young players during term time.

And quite a lot then spill over into playing at festvals etc - eg Blackbeards Tea Party were originally started from university folk though personnel has altered over time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM

Bryan wrote:-
" I take it they didn't offer you a floor spot. "


None of the venues that I mentioned in my post above are run on folk club lines. Main/support artist is the norm - just as if you were going to a concert at The Dome, The Hawth or wherever in our area, though the numbers at the smaller venue gigs that I mentioned are generally under 100.
They present country, folk, a little jazz, singer/songwriters and rock bands (generally fairly unknown ones that have more intelligent lyrics. The venues are catering for an audience that does not see itself committed exclusively to one genre but will give anything that has a reasonably cerebral approach a listen. I reckon that this is a very common attitude amongst the rising generation of intelligent music enthusiasts.
I am totally committed to traditional music and song, otherwise why would I have been running a weekly folk club for 50 years..... but I don't think that music begins and ends with English folk music.
Yes, I was at the utterly hardcore traditional festival last weekend, but tomorrow I am very excited to be off to four days of lovely music from all over the world at WOMAD. I have been to a jazz event and two concerts by leading African performers during this July. I have also played five gigs this month - all with our dance band and none of them for a folk music crowd. We are playing traditional dance tunes to people who would never otherwise get a chance to hear them. Nearly always there are one or two people who come up to members of the band and ask about the music, its background, the instruments etc.
I think that it would do a lot of folkies good to get out of their ghetto and enjoy a wider range of music. Certainly, in terms of organisation, of the way we present out music, we have lots to learn.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: davidharley
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

Living for a while in an area of the South that was virtually devoid of folk clubs or even acoustic sessions, I found that open mic audiences didn't necessarily regard a PA as a licence to talk over the performance, and that a very mixed audience was often very receptive to folky material (I mean real traddy stuff, not just acoustic singer-songwriter stuff.) Obviously all open mics are not the same, just as sessions and folk clubs vary widely. But they're not the work of the devil. :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM

Would she have got where she is without folk clubs?

One of the most important functions and successes of the folk club movement has been the way that the floor spot system has enabled a wide range of performers to develop their performing skills, their confidence in front of an audience etc....... All true, but we must not run away with the idea that it is the only route to performing success. I have seen great performers in the five countries that I have been in this year and many of them will not even have heard of folk clubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

To the above list of new London folk "clubs" I'd like to add Woodburner, The Lantern Society, The Folkroom Fortnightly, Tooting Folk. Noticeably none of them call themselves "clubs", which can give outsiders an impression that non-members are not welcome.

There are certainly plenty of talented young folk musicians around today, and looking for places to play. Just look at Folkstock .

Some established folk clubs work very hard to discover and encourage new, young, up-and-coming talent, whereas others simply book known acts that they know will bring in their regular audience. However the support & main act format naturally lends itself to fulfilling both of these needs. I have new discovered many great new artists originally as support acts.

Folk clubs (and folk music) is bound to evolve and change with the generations, particularly now, having skipped the last one or two generations. So there is definitely going to be a bit of a step change.

I think most folk clubs - and festivals too - could do A LOT MORE to really encourage and support new artists. But in many cases they need to discover these new talented artists first. They're all out there with their own websites, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, SoundCloud etc. and presented to you on a plate by songsfromtheshed.com, Ont' Sofa Gibson Sessions, Sofar Sounds, Folkstock etc. etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM

Vic,but we are discussing the uk folk clubs.
wht happens elsewhere is not relevant to the discussion, because we do not know if their had been folk clubs in those countries whether more performers would have benefited, we simply do not know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Oggie
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:27 PM

Singers and musicians are getting their experience at open mikes, the unpaid part of the bill at festivals, local music venues, on the streets wherever music is being played.

Blackbeard's Tea Party was mentioned, they are long time buskers on the streets of York where their ability to hold an audience and perform was measured by the takings in the melodeon case.

Most of the singaround clubs I've been to recently certainly won't teach anyone how to perform or put a set together with a format of one tune/song around the room.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM

I'm still at a bit of a loss to know what folk clubs can do to bring younger people in. The answers I seem to be getting are for folk clubs to stop being folk clubs and for organisers to stop being old.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

old people must not enjoy themselves they must die disgracefullyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NOZH0y7VxE andWhen you walk along the street
How often times you'll meet
Some poor old man who's getting old and grey
His age is feeble spent
In his pockets not a cent
And for shelter he has nowhere to go
His relations by the score
They'll turn him from the door
They'll meet him on a street, they'll pass him by
If you ask them why they do
They'll answer you and say,
"He is poor, he's old, he's only in the way"

Now let us cheer them all
For they won't be with us long
Don't point at them because they're old and grey
For remember while you're young
Old age to you will come
And you'll be old and grey and only in the way

There was a time, I hear
When young was not so queer
But since that time there's been an awful change
Young men with strength and might
To the parents they would strike
Yes, it happens every day, that's nothing strange
They strike for fear of toil
Whose children they would spoil
And sure for death ofttimes they do pray
For himself and faithful wife been toiling all their lives
To find they're old and only in the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT1TRFrIeXI not bad for an old one, when you young whippersnappers can do better, put it up if you cant shut up


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Oggie
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:46 PM

Dick, what is happening around the world and in the UK is very relevant. The unpalatable (to some) truth appears to be that Folk Clubs (as in booking guests on a regular basis so that said guests can earn a living) are dying out. That doesn't mean that the music is dying, that young people aren't making it, they (and a large band of older ex-folk attendees) are doing it outside the traditional Folk Club circuit.

There are notable exceptions, they're noticeable because they are the exceptions, but I have been to too many truly lousy gigs in traditional Folk Clubs in the past decade for me to make a point of visiting one. Given a choice between a concert style gig and a folk club I'll now take the former anytime even when it's in a non traditional (often standing) venue.

I'm also finding that a lot of folk clubs (for understandable reasons) play it very safe. The same guests seem to come round on a two or three yearly cycle. Is that helping young talent along?

There are exceptions, but many of these are the ones that break the mold, concerts on a Sunday afternoon, guests and promotions aimed at a festival event later in the year etc. I regretfully think that the fact that Vic couldn't find someone to take over a good folk club on his retirement says a lot about the way folk clubs are perceived and going.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:50 PM

"Vic,but we are discussing the uk folk clubs. wht happens elsewhere is not relevant to the discussion,"

Without getting bogged down in an argument which I won't do on Mudcat, let's consider someone that I have mentioned previously - Alasdair Roberts. I became aware of him through receiving review copies of his albums and playing them on the radio. It was clear to me right from the start that here was a major talent with a precise knowledge of the Scots tradition and who had a totally engaging way of performing Scots songs and ballads. He is a fascinating, interesting man to talk to with a deep understanding of the tradition. The first four times that I saw him was in concerts. I urged him to try to get bookings in folk clubs and he told me that he had just signed for one of the leading folk music agencies in the hope that this would happen. We booked him for our club in Lewes and he was very well received - but he has not become a folk club fixture. Look at his website; you will see that he has a full diary of dates but not one of them is to at a specialist folk music venue.
By not taking him up - and by not taking up others new names , all very talented performers of traditional material, the folk clubs have done themselves a great disservice.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:57 AM

if young people only want to go to folk clubs that have people of a certain age,their own, that shows that primarily they want to be in the company of their own age group, I dont accept that all young people are concerned about primarily mixing with their own age group., it may be a factor, but it is not always more important than the music
here is one way that folk clubs can increase audiences regardless of age, keep a data base of all visitors ,exchange info with other club organisers, organise a club swap with one of the clubs mentioned that has a predominantly young audience, that is one way to break down age barriers, each club has to make the different age group welcome.
    Vic, has just given his subjective opinion about a performer he thinks is talented, undoubtedly he is, but he cannot expect another organiser to have exactly the same booking policy as him, here is an example I have been booked 25 times in fifty years at Stockton folk club, 10 times in 35 years at Faversham folk club, 3 OR 4 TIMES AT LEWES SATURDAY CLUB and once at Vic Smiths old Lewes club, would it be correct for the other organisers to suggest to Vic that he should be booking me more often, in my opinion it would not., because the organiser is the one who carries the financial burden , he therefore has the right to make his own decisions based on his knowledge of his audiences preferences it is unfortunately not just about talent.
Vic if you bring up an issue and make this statement," All true, but we must not run away with the idea that it is the only route to performing success. I have seen great performers in the five countries that I have been in this year and many of them will not even have heard of folk clubs." you must expect it to be answered.
I will continue to point out that your comment is weak, because we do not know whether there would have been more great performers if there was a folk club floor spot system in those countries.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

I think I might be to blame for the decline in folk clubs.
There was one on last night with a guest. A good folk club - and we are members. I usually help with the chairs at the end and play support if asked. I thought - OK, the guest is not totally my cup of tea - but add entrance fee £8 each, rounds of drinks at nearly £8 a go, petrol - its a bit of a distance and of course the raffle, and decided I did not rate the guest that much.
Is going to a folk club a habit that we have grown out of - less of a club and more like choice of entertainment for the night - as it is now not an inexpensive mid week option.
FloraG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Audiences need to have more say in who gets booked?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM

I think Vic's example of Alasdair Roberts is a good one.

Though Ali has early grounding in folk music, in so far as his Dad was a folk musician, he didn't arrive as a performer via the usual 'new generation of folksingers' route. He first came to music fans' attention via his experimental indie/folk band, Appendix Out, who were far removed from the folk scene in terms of the venues and events they played, the range of music they played andf the fact they released their albums on the US indie label Drag City. They built a small but loyal fanbase completely outside of and independently of the folk scene.

When he released his first solo album of traditional songs, 'The Crook of my Arm', this was seen at the time as a brave move - the scene he played to was largely made up of people with little interest in or knowledge of traditional songs and ballads, so in a way he was sticking his neck out by nailing his colours to that particular mast. Since then he has continued to release both traditional albums and albums of his own songwriting - influenced by folksong but, lyrically especially, taking in a broad range of influences. Even when he has done versions of traditional songs, he has made few concessions to the expectations and norms of the folk scene. In fact, it can be argued that he aleady had a fine track record as a folksinger before the vast majority of people in the folk scene had even heard of him, and I'd wager he is still a mystery to many.

The point of this is to say that the folk club scene is only one aspect of how folk music gets out into the world. Historically, it was an important one in the UK context, without a doubt, but is far from the only model for the future. Like Vic, I listen to a lot of folk/traditional influenced music from other parts of the world, which has survived and thrived without the benefits of a folk club scene. I'm firmly of the opinion that the particular cultural and sociological phenomenon of the folk club, which undoubtedly had its heyday in previous decades and is now possibly entering its dotage, served a fantastic purpose, and for a relatively small number of people still does, but rather than mourn its passing or try to maintain it by means of a variety of life support machines of varying effectiveness, we should celebrate what it has given us and meanwhile let the young people do as they see fit. If some of them learn from, replicate or adapt the model, all well and good, but if they don't, it takes nothing away from what came before. Times change, nothing lasts forever. Those who want to play folk music will do so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM

"Audiences need to have more say in who gets booked? "
Unless the organiser is funding the club as a vanity project the audience has the ultimate say. If a guest can't bring in enough punters to cover the fee then they don't get booked again. That's how the market works.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 09:52 AM

As a semi-lapsed folkie (as far as attendance goes) still desperately clinging on to the last flushes of youth, I have had some unusual experiences of folk clubs. Being steeped in folk tradition, I generally love them for what they are. But I always find it interesting when someone asks me to introduce them to a folk club.

I must admit that I do tend to try to steer them more towards a day at a folk festival as an introduction. The variety and freedom on offer means, I think, that they're more likely to return/explore further. However, the handful who have said 'no, I'd like to try a folk club' have generally not enjoyed it I'm afraid to say. Each time I've tried to take them to see a headline act that I think will entertain a newcomer (based on many factors including mid-song conversation, liveliness of songs, etc…) they've generally already made their mind up by the time the feature act has got started as they've sat through floor singers of, let's say, variable quality. On more than one occasion the length of time the floor singers have taken up has eaten into the time the main act had.

This isn't an anti-floor singer tirade, however. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who has the bravery to stand up in front of a group of people and sing unaccompanied, and I have seen plenty of very good floor singers in my time. But the thread is based around what folk clubs can do to increase their chances of survival/attract new attendees. Based on my admittedly limited experiences on this score, if folk clubs want to attract more 'passing trade' (and that's a big if - of course folk clubs shouldn't change everything that their regulars hold dear in the hope of attracting a handful of newcomers who may or may not stick around) then this is something that a good many could better address.

Poor-quality acts hogging the limelight isn't going to pack in the punters. The better/more established clubs are probably aware of that and have ways of limiting it when they have featured acts on, perhaps by giving these singers more time on open-floor nights. But for all but one of the half-dozen people I've taken to folk clubs, their first time was also their last, I'm sad to say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM

if folk clubs need reviving, then revive them, people like Vic who have organised clubs for many years should perhaps advise
in the meantime i will repeat my suggestions, folk clubs should try and do a club swap with places like sam lees nest collective, to bring down the age barrier, then try this... reduce prices [and publicise that] for students and people below the age of thirty,and for young unemployed people.
explain to older people why you are doing this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

if you are competing with open mics, promote the club, explain the advantages of the folk club, market the club, keep a data base, be positive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

Maybe you'd attract more youngsters if you stopped calling them Folk Clubs.
A whole bunch of us 17 year olds went to the dark haired Vic Smith's Folk Club in Lewes back in the late 60s; for some unaccountable reason it was deemed kind of cool...and some lovely girls used to attend too. Mind you, Lewes always had a political edge with the influx of academics based at Sussex University, which seemed to go very much hand in glove with folk music. I was introduced to the Lewes Arms by a school friend whose professor dad would play us Woodie Guthrie, Seeger plus Django...no escape really.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

My pet hate in folk clubs is the raffle. The whole ceremony makes me cringe and it must totally alienate anybody under 60. It makes the event feel like bingo night in a care home.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM

In these hard times, foreign travel has been a bit limited lately. Been to Whitby a few times and did get an overseas booking a few years ago on The Isle of Wight.

Booking policy has been a bit reactive of late. I get flooded with requests from a wide range of artists from the wonderful to the bizarre. I'm sure Vic had the same. The job is mainly selecting the best and finding polite ways of saying no to the ones who do look as if they have at least taken the effort to look at our website. Alasdair Roberts is indeed excellent but we haven't been approached. Perhaps he should get a better agent or perhaps the agent thinks we're too down market. If we did book him, of course we would have to drop someone else. I'm not sure if the implication is that, if we booked him, the audience from the Green Door Store would turn out in droves to see him. I doubt it. If they did, would they come along to the Come-All-Ye the next week?

The only alternatives that I have seen so far seem to work on a main act with selected support basis with no clue as to how you get to be selected unless it's videoing yourself in your garden shed and sticking it up on YouTwitFace.

I realise I am slipping into the trap of thinking, along with others, that the purpose of folk clubs or even singarounds is to promote the careers of aspiring professionals. Folk clubs and singarounds and tune sessions exist as an end in themselves. They need no other justification. Oggie says "Most of the singaround clubs I've been to recently certainly won't teach anyone how to perform or put a set together with a format of one tune/song around the room.". No, that's not what they are for. The are for like minded people to get together and enjoy their own and each other's singing. If someone chooses to use it as a way of honing their skills in the hopes of moving to higher things, fine.

Oggie also says (sorry, but you keep coming out with useful quotes) - "The unpalatable (to some) truth appears to be that Folk Clubs (as in booking guests on a regular basis so that said guests can earn a living) are dying out.". No, they book guests on a regular basis to provide entertainment for the people who have laid down good money on the door. Some of those guests maybe be doing it to earn a living but I suspect the majority have day jobs.

Let's not forget that this is Folk Music and, whatever it's dubious origins, folk is a folksie sort of word for people. It's about people making music together.

(That'll learn me. Just had a general circular from Alasdair Roberts agent. I withdraw my crack about getting a better agent, one of the best in the business. Of the four acts being specifically plugged, one we booked quite recently and another turned up at the Lewes Arms quite some years ago, did a floor spot and was offered a booking there and then.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM

From a conference I attended a few years back, the Folk scene was on a par with the 60's folk revival! And attendancs were up. However the Guest Booking clubs were certainly in decline. I believe due to too many same old faces, unfriendly atttitude to anyone not playing English Trad, and the usual reluctance of Folk Clubs to organise and work together i.e Rock clubs would never survive if they took the same attitude. There is an Org Folk21 currently working to address the problem.
As for open Mic clubs, they have very much increased, because unlike the trad clubs they welcome young people and a wide variety of genres. I hear traditionalists say they don't regard this as 'Folk' I say Folk is music from numerous countries and people and the more the merrier


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 12:25 PM

When did "Trad" clubs stop welcoming young people???
Ours certainly doesn't and hopefully our booking policy which has included the majority of youngsters playing folk music today would confirm this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM

well said, Dave.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

When did "Trad" clubs stop welcoming young people???

I don't believe that they ever have.

However, young and indeed older people find concerts and festivals far more appealing entertainment than the tedious drivel that many floor singers and club residents offer.

I think it's as simple as that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,oggie
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

My comment about learning how to put a set together was actually in response to an earlier comment about where will people learn if there aren't folk clubs.

I also agree that the function of a club is to provide entertainment to a paying audience. I fear some have forgotten that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:47 PM

That is....assuming it is a paying audience. The ones I go to, I never pay, other than a raffle ticket and a drink. I get to play a few songs, and listen to others, and give support even if I think sometimes it could have been better. It just depends what you want out of a club.   And for me, it is not listening to one or two acts all evening, and not being able to sing myself.   Seems to me that such a scenario is a poor description of a club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM

Surely the function of a club - if it has a function - is to please the committee and mebers.
If by having a headline act you make enough to pay for the loss on the next few nights - then so be it. Sometimes its the other way round - the singers night subsidise having a paid guest. As long as the members liked the evenings then purpose satisfied.
FloraG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

Sorry Oggie but, as I said, you provide useful quotes. Without a context, I have to take what you say at face value.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM

"Surely the function of a club - if it has a function - is to please the committee and mebers."
That's the problem. Once the committee is pandering to the old guard in the membership the club becomes inward looking and unwelcoming and decline is inevitable.

A significant proportion of clubs run by people who came into folk music in the 60s are in this condition. Younger people and those new to the scene start or go to new events and don't participate in the information exchange circuits of the classic folk scene such as local magazines (or Mudcat).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:48 PM

I doubt if many people under 40 have any experience of participating in organizations led by committees. They'll react to that sort of institution in the same way that most folks would to the priesthood of an alien religion. The more visible the committee is, the more it'll repel newcomers.

For any other genre of music, you can go to a concert without having to sit quiet for ten minutes at the interval while some Voodoo Hoodoo priest does an incomprehensible ritual with with slips of paper and a hat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

A club can be inward looking - it depends on how it recruits new people.
Its my experince for things to happen you need some sort of organisation. It can be formal/ informal. Both can work. If you are dealing with a lot of money you need account records. Young people are not inexperienced in team work - most jobs demand it.
The idea of doing things without pay for the benefit of yourself and others is coming back. Just look at the Glasgow games. The Thatcher erea has passed.
FloraG.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:13 AM

Living in Central Scotland, we are spoilt for choice of both clubs and sessions (not open mikes), some of which are weekly, some monthly. Sure there are some nights when the audience is thin on the ground, sometimes unexpectedly - "thought more of you would come out for XXX" - but as far as I know all the clubs I attend are not in danger of going under. I am treasurer of one very small one, which would possibly be hovering on the brink if it were not that we get the use of the back room of a pub for free, and only run 3 guest nights per year: people therefore pay a very small sum for attending the session nights in between, which helps to pay for the guests, and oh yes, we have a raffle!
Raffle income is important to clubs, tho' I agree it can go on too long in certain venues: one group I know just dispenses with all the "fun" and running about, and just publishes a very large print list of winning numbers for people to check on their way out. This gives us a lot more playing/singing time!
As for audiences having a say in who appears, most clubs I attend either ask for suggestions at their AGMs or have suggestions boxes in which you can post any ideas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM

so my suggestions are this in order to encourage all acoustic music venues that require people to listen and participate.
I. if you live in the north east encourage graduates and students from the folk degree course to visit by charging reduced admission for them, occasionally book students from the degree course[ i believe some clubs do this already.
2. initiate club swaps if you are in the home counties with sam lees nest collective.
3. reduce the price drastically[ and use this as a selling point and promote this] for under 30s.
4. keep a data base of all visitors.
5. exchange info with other folk club organisers.
6. make everyone welcome particularly young people.
7. run workshops and make them cheaper for young people.
8.if you are near a college promote the club with the college aloow their young students, to come in cheap
9, possibly, occasionally have an under 30s perfomers night only, with a young guest performer, flexibilty required here, older resident singers may be required, if the initial turn out is poor, this could be tried every 3 months or so.
just some ideas, that may or may not be worth trying


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Vic Smith
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:52 PM

I've found them! Thousands of them! Young People all enjoying traditional and folk music. ! They are all at WOMAD this weekend. Not much British stuff but some fantastic music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:38 AM

ok vic, but how does that relate to the comment are folk cubs dying out, you have had years of experience of successful organising, do you think there is any merit in my suggestions, do you have any suggesions yourself


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:59 AM

Excellent news, Vic. I hope you're telling them all about the delights of folk clubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:01 AM

Why should it be a problem if folk clubs are dying out? As far as I know they were an artefact of my generation, getting going in the 1950s and gradually suffering from a variety of age-related ailments now. Or is it the lack of a training ground for professional folk club singers/musicians that is being lamented? Again, are these professional club performers (as opposed to concert artists) not a product of the very same, probably passing, phase/generation? Folk song and music was going long before folk clubs and it's still going but now, as people here have mentioned, at festivals (some "folk", some not), concerts, sessions and singarounds. The latter (which are plentiful if you know where to look but often not well publicised) seem to cater for what were the floor singers (and do a better job of it in my opinion) and the former for the "professionals". Their apprenticeship route may be different now but there are plenty of new, young performers at festivals and in concerts who have made it without apparently visiting many folk clubs.
It may well be that the Mudcat generation would like to see the clubs continue after them, in which case follow some of the suggestions below, but perhaps the folk clubs were just for a generation: folk music goes on even without them and that is surely what matters.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:59 AM

Dick, at the moment I am still recovering from the fact that no-one wanted to take over the successful club that we had been running for decades and that has influenced my opinion on the future of clubs. As has been pointed out many times on this thread, there are other ways that the music will survive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:02 AM

I'm sure music played in informal settings will always survive, its one of the things humans do when they get together. The problem occurs when you try to fomalise, catagorise, sectionalise, start inventing rules and regulations, putting labels on things etc. For me thats the problem, there should be no such thing as Folk, its just music, enjoy it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM

whilst I agree with Dave Sutherland that his club has been welcoming, and maybe in the last few years trad clubs have been welcoming - a by product of the bbc young tradition - and raised consciousnesses - there was a long long period when this was not the case.

I can remember Downes and Beer never getting a gig at the jolly porter in Exeter, ian Campbell's kids being disenchanted with the brum trad scene. and indeed my own lukewarm and sometimes hostile reception in trad clubs like the grey cock, the prince of wales, the star. different interpretations of the tradition were certainly not welcomed.

many of the present young acts that I see nowadays would have been given very short shrift.
the folk clubs I don't will ever die out. and the reason for this is simply that modern culture - as presented by television is so awful. macdonald hobley and lady Isabel Barnett drove the masses out of their homes in the fifties, Rolf Harris and Val Doonican did in the 60's. Chris Evans and a host of other talented celebrities are carrying on this good work

how ever horrid the trad folk clubs used to be -sometimes they were the only game in town. and I think that's how things will continue. i'd rather have the dowie dens of yarrow intoned lifelessly to me from a ringbinder than sit through the x factor.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM

There's a huge resurgence of interest in what we could call folk music, and by young people.

But what is of interest to them , sat round in a noisy pub whilst an old man with a beard gets a three chord book out and strums an old country and western song whilst other old men are leafing through their similar books?

There are some folk clubs out there still. When I find them, I also find a large younger audience.

Nothing wrong with old men and books, just don't expect anybody under 65 to say wow...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM

vic, fair enough i understand how you must feel , i am just trying to be positive


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 09:21 AM

my point is that if we can get young people into more clubs, either by club exchanges as i suggested earlier, or by reduced admission, one might hope they would take over the running of clubs eventually in situations such as LEWES THURSDAY WOULD BE AVOIDED.
if i lived near LEWES, I would attempt to run it in the meantime.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM

Yes they are, they've been doing it since I first went in one in about 1969!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM

Could I just point out that folk music in Lewes is alive and well at Lewes Saturday Folk Club.

Sorry to hear that things are so bad at the folk club you play at Musket. Perhaps you should get Big Al in to liven things up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM

I have heard this story so many times. The magazine Banjo Mandolin and Guitar in the mid 60s anounced that it was JUST possible to make a living as a folk performer if you slept on the floor and could scrape by on £20 a week which was an existing wage then. Most gigging musicians do not make much money unless you are doing covers or in a function band. You make work a lot indeed but the outgoings outway the incomings.

The decline in the pub market has also had an impact and the Kim Howell legislation put a lot of publicans off live music. in our part of London there is a vibrant acoustic music scene but it is not trad folk Young people go to blues and acoustic clubs where younger people play

Folkies tending to be older do not
Hence the old joke Whats 50 yards long has five teeth and smells of piddle. The front row at a Willie Nelson concert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

I think we have to accept that its not us lot running things. the heroes of my generation have all gone - Gerry lockran. noel murphy, Derek brimstone, tony capstick, tommy Dempsey, alex Campbell, ian Campbell.......these guys and many more were all my nights out.

theres been a change of regime. theres some great stuff around....oh but I do miss those guys.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: growler
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM

Reading the above, we are lucky at The Good Intent in Rochester. The club welcomes anyone of any ability. The pub also has an 'open mike night'. It is well attended, despite other folk clubs within driving distance, the nearest being 300 yards away. I am proud of what we have achieved, over the last ten years and from my local experience, folk is not dying but becoming more healthy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:13 PM

" folk is not dying but becoming more healthy "
I agree but the point under discussion is the folk club rather than folk generally. The two are not the same.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM

I regularly attend the folk club at the Good Intent too, having being involved in the 'Folk Club scene'for only about three and a half years; so compared to some I am a newbee really. The folk club in question, is highly welcoming, a place to grow and develop musically, listen to great music, enjoy collective singing where I'm beginning to learn a lot of the choruses...and with regard to the 'point under discussion', is certainly thriving.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM

It might be easier to form an accurate judgement as to whether or not "Folk clubs are dying out", if people were to give some indication of the number of people currently attending these clubs mentioned above on a typical night, and in particular, compared with 10 or 20 years ago.
If your club's been going for 10 or 20 years, are you getting smaller or larger audiences now than you were then ?
Just to take one instance from the post immediately above - Rachel - how many of an audience constitutes a "thriving" club these days ?
I've no axe to grind here, but am just genuinely curious.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

I meant to say in my earlier post that we have many excellent young folk and traditional music artists up here. They haven't all been through the folk music degree courses or the Plockton "Centre of Excellence" school. It is easy for people to be disparaging about them (along the lines of "all technique but no musicality") but my experience of listening to them has, on the whole, been different. They get gigs at folk clubs as well as festivals, and usually bring in an enthusiastic crowd of young supporters to the audience, at least on those nights, if not every week: they mostly know their subject very well, having researched the provenance of any songs or tunes they do. And there are many great projects throughout Scotland to encourage young people to take up an instrument and play folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

Yes, well, in this country (UK) the folk world is a closed down community and woe betide ANYONE not of the right heritage (that being the folk world itself) who DARES to try and make it more popular...

You wanted it kept your own little world, you have it.

The one thing you all forgot was that you won't be here forever and instead of letting others try to get the word out, be they artists or those who love the music, you pounce on them, ridicule them, shut them out and do all you can to shut them up....

Ho hum


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:44 AM

I think that the trad music universities could do a module on ' running events'. ( from folk clubs to festivals).It would not be everyones cup of tea but event management is a growing occupation.
FloraG.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:50 AM

excellent,Flora, Very good idea.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 AM

Lizzie as usual goes right over the top but there is a germ of truth in her post.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM

A quick look at the on-line guide to the Newcastle degree suggests that they do an optional module on "enterprise" but it looks as if it is more about being a self employed musician rather than branching out into being a promoter or agent.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM

FAO Big Al Whittle

I agree about most of the names you quoted However they were persons who refreshed themselves frequently and with great damage to the internal organs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

the problem is not wit the maeketing opportunities or festival organisation.

on the contrary the middle class gang at bbc4,etc has given the folk world repeated creative opportunities ordinary musicians can only dream about.

the problem is the music. you have laboured mightily to create a style of music that alienates the general listener. you have suceded beyond your wildest dreams - now even great songs from the folk world are not making it to a wider market in the way that Ralph Mctell and the dubs did with in our generation.

all this stuff about the ist world war - where are Eric Bogle's - not in the charts. its old news to us, but might it not stir hearts that missed out June Tabor nearly forty years back. perhaps in a more accessible style.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM

another worthwhile idea in my opinion is to start Song Writing Clubs, Clubs where people can go to perform their own material and where the music is listened to in the same way as it is in Folk clubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

When I got into Folk Clubs in the mid 1950s I wanted to learn from older singers and players and to sing to and with my own age group. After a while I joined the grownups and went into the public bar with traditional musicians. I still supported the clubs but agreed with Ralph Vaughan Williams' who said that the collecting and conserving etc of the first revival was really to give the songs back to the people. The second and now 'New English' third revivals are still doing that.

I don't think clubs will die as young 'Nu Folk' fans will still have to go upstairs in pubs and maybe other venues. They will also no doubt walk past the 'Nu Trad' singers and players in the bar on their way to rediscover and reinvent our heritage.

meanwhile if the music has permeated popular music in its many forms should we lose sleep? Keep it live and keep it alive!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:21 PM

Not all of them Tony. Some are just too old to go out on the road - like Derek. Ewan - he's gone too - he was never a pisshead.

Ithink I would like to add - that maybe the tradition was too determined to look back at the past of the music - rather than forward at the audience - and their needs. Needs which change in every age - but was there ever an age with as much change as the 20th century,

It caught everybody out....church, state, political institutions, social frameworks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

@ Kenny
I can't make a comparison between numbers attending on a typical night now and twenty years ago as my experience only spans three years.
A typical night at my club has around 20 people attending. I've seen numbers reaching almost thirty.
From my own observations, as a relative newcomer, thriving isn't just about numbers attending. For me, It's also about inclusivity,diversity of players/singers, range of abilities, feeling safe to try something out and make mistakes without judgement, having a laugh, sharing ideas,sometimes instruments, a warm welcome for newcomers ( and there have been several while I have been attending,)masses of sandwiches served on the night( including cheese and onion!) good ales (although I'm a lager drinker, I'm afraid),regular concert nights, special folk events involving loads more ale and more sandwiches.
The regular folk nights sees regulars attending that neither play nor sing, but just like to listen to the music, as does the landlady.
This is my own definition of 'thriving'and it keeps me coming back week after week, work willing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Sorry re. above post...that was me...Rachel


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Great idea Big Al, singer songwriting clubs, but wait a minute who would that leave to perform at Folk Clubs, but then again who cares if the bar is open.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:05 PM

it was me not big al, it would leave plenty of people in folk clubs , because there is nothing to stop people who are song writers going to both, or the many people who like blues and tradtional songs would still go to folk clubs,
mandoman 77 your comment is plain silly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

Got news for y'all. Folk clubs ain't dying out.

First, there are as many definitions of folk clubs as there are people.

Second, Dick Miles--with whom I have a love/hate affair unbeknownst to him--is correct. "if you are competing with open mics, promote the club, explain the advantages of the folk club, market the club, keep a data base, be positive."

I do disagree that explaining means much: it's better to show.

Folk clubs aren't dying, imo, folk singers are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,#
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:22 PM

That was me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:07 AM

I do like this idea of a singer songwriters club. Anyone interested in setting one up in Manchester UK?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:56 AM

if people are singing folk songs,how can folk singers be dying?, of course we are all dying from the time we are born, generally I prefer to think that I am living from the moment I was born,the other philosophical outlook seems a trifle pessimistic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Al yearns for the the same times as me, I think. My drinking apprenticeship was getting them in for Tony Capstick... But the problem is, we turn up at these "people sitting around with books" nights and try to compare them to folk clubs.

Perhaps we are also trying to capture a well misspent youth when bemoaning what people call folk clubs now?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

@Rachel - thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I can't agree with you, but wish you the best of luck with your music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:29 AM

GUEST,kenny said
> @Rachel - thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I can't agree with you, but wish you the best of luck with your music.

Was that a reply to a PM? I can't see how it relates to her 27 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM post.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM

clubs whether they be song writing clubs or folk clubs or acoustic music or blues clubs are important in my opinion, because they have a root in a community, they are places where people make their own music, and where people turn up specifically to listen. open mics are not acoustic and there is in my opinion a tendency for it to be background music, when that happens, i feel it is disrespectful to the performer and the music. of course it does not mean that every open mic is going to be treated as background music, but ic acan mean that there will be a number of people there who are not there to listen to the music, unless the open mic is held in a seperate room.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM

For various reasons I've not been active on Mudcat for a few weeks, but I thought I'd just add a personal comment on a question that's cropped up here and there on this thread: Why did no-one take up the reigns of the highly successful weekly, Royal Oak Club in Lewes, after the retirement of Vic and Tina Smith?

When I heard the news that Vic and Tina were bowing out at the Royal Oak, I considered having a serious shot at running it - perhaps not in quite the same way as it had been run by Vic and Tina, as we all have our own views on how things should be done - but certainly with a view to keeping it going. I felt it was a great shame that such a successful club, with a number of good residents and an excellent reputation in the folk world, should just close. I had had experience of running clubs in the past, for example the BBC Folk Club (Clanfolk) back in the '60s. Having thought hard about it, I did three things:

(1) I set down on paper my own thoughts on how to keep it going and what I felt would be needed
(2) I contacted - and was coincidentally contacted - by two or three like-minded friends in the area
(3) I spoke at some length to Vic and Tina about the whole situation

Without going into details about my conversation with Vic and Tina, suffice to say that they were both very supportive of the idea, had a great of sympathy with many of my own thoughts, and had a huge amount of excellent advice for me on lots of practical procedures. They also gave me some insight into their own "succession planning" and how, for various reasons, it had not turned out as they had expected. So far, so good.

Armed with this data, I had more detailed conversations with the people who had indicated that they might like to be involved. It very soon transpired that, although there was a great deal of theoretical interest, there was - for various quite understandable reasons - a reluctance on the part of those same people to commit time and energy on a regular basis. In effect, it would have been virtually a one-man band - with me as the band. Quite simply, I couldn't do it on my own. None of the people involved, including myself, lived in Lewes, making publicity (and even travel in some winter conditions) a difficult task. None of the people involved could commit to a regular routine. None of us was getting any younger - I'm just a few months younger than Vic and reach my "threescore years and ten" very shortly.

Ironically, and without wishing to blow our own trumpets, those of us who had contemplated getting the club up and going again also had good performing and musical skills - I say "ironically", because, in the end, that was probably the crucial factor in not being able to commit to the club. We were just too busy gigging and doing our own things in performance to be able to spare the extra time needed to run the Royal Oak club. For example, I play jazz and ragtime in one duo, music hall and instrumental music in another, and play regularly in a ceilidh band. I help Stu Reed to run the monthly Brighton Acoustic Session, and I run my own monthly session/singaround in my local Sussex village. All of this as well as participating in other local sessions and musical events.

In hindsight perhaps it was just wishful thinking on my part to have contemplated taking on the burden in the first place - but I felt genuinely sad that the club had folded, and still do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

@ Richard Mellish. No PM sent, only my post.
@ Kenny. No agreement or good opinion sought, only stating my perspective. Good luck with your music too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

I can't avoid the image of Big Al and Musket slumped in big comfy armchairs in their Home for Old Folkies grumbling that the weekly singaround organised by their kindly carers isn't like the folk clubs they remember from their youth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

well you can keep yer thieving hands off my ringbinder, musket! i'll have a chocolate hob nob with me cocoa and Countdown's on in a minute....anyway, what are you doing here?. i thought rich gits like you went in BUPA homes!

Didn't Tony Capstick have a beautiful voice. Who before or since sang the Bonny Bunch of Roses with a voice that could tear you heart out? I'm sure he got fed up with me requesting it.

'By the margins of the ocean.....etc'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

I think Will Flys post, illustrates the problem in a nut shell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM

Aye, it was his party piece and I try to sing it to the same tune.

Incidentally, Amazon have an MP3 download of various live songs and intros of his on sale. I bought it. Yes, Bonny Bunch of Roses is on it, as well as The Recruited Collier, Wine with Dinner, Sheffield Grinder and a few more old chestnuts. Took me back to The Boundary, that did..

BUPA homes? Are you serious? They allow council funded referrals. I'm not cohorting with the proletariat in my dotage! It's going to have to be far more exclusive than that! Mind you, after a couple of years of inspecting the buggers as part of my work with CQC up till last year, I have mixed views on the whole idea..

You can't get stuck in any old home, they might allow the likes of The Snail in them. Clapton forbid who else from Mudcat you might bump into!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

OMG you might even have some "young" (60-ish) folkies come round and sing to you! And of course you would be expected to know "Keep the Home Fires Burning" and "Tipperary".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQE3AS3Vzb0 a good version.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

Meet me at the folk club, don't be late,
I need to sing some Richard and it just wont wait.
Blow out the candles and turn on the light,
I don't want to hear "The Bright Lights" tonight.

Naw, you're right. It'd be Tipperary...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM

Folk clubs are a lot of work. The easiest to run are those that stick to the same format eg a guest every week or a session every week. The most time consuming are those that mix and match - club nights - open mikes - showcases of open mikers -the best open mikers supporting paid guests.
It helps if you have a supportive venue, real ale, free room, and donated food or raffle prize.
There is a case for paying admin fees to committee over and above expenses- but I'm not sure how the tax authorities would view this?
There is also a case for having a list of good agents. Some ask for thing like accomodation when the artist does not need it. Do agents communicate with their artists? Too many do not do their basic research, trying to promote artists charging £2000 when the club room takes 40.
Would mudcat be a suitable place for listing good agents?
FloraG.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:50 AM

Would mudcat be a suitable place for listing good agents?

The problem would be to try to make the the listing anything more than experiential or anecdotal. I had a very bad time with one booking made through a Bristol agent, but others probably found him fine to work with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:04 AM

"Do agents communicate with their artists?"
A club organiser who I know once received a contract that was pitched at a pop concert with requirements for a private dressing room with fresh fruit etc. She had known the artist for decades and on phoning was told to just put a line through those sections.

Admin fees - HMRC would expect their cut from the recipients. I would be more worried about the arrangement getting classed as employment with a whole raft of regulations to think about.

Agents - its a lot easier to do a single mail out than to customise each one and just because the club room takes 40 doesn't mean that the club doesn't get involved with bigger events either in it's own right or in conjuncton with others.

Which is of course another aspect of promoting the club, be proactive and get involved in local music and arts festivals to put quality folk music in front of a non specialist public and promote the club.

Remember a person doesn't become a prospective new member until:
1. They decide that they like, or at least want to try, folk music
2. They know that there is such a thing as a folk club


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:21 AM

As a young person it would appear a lot more attractive a proposition to go to a festival at the weekend - there are enough for every weekend in the year now - than to go down the local folk club and feeling in an alien environment with much older people. Although folk club s describe themselves as friendly it often means that folks who started the club together aeons ago are friendly to each other. Young can have chats with strangers at festivals and make friends. Not sure club give the time and space for that. Folk clubs are painting themselves into a corner.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM

Folk clubs are folk clubs, festivals are festivals, singarounds are singarounds, concerts are concerts and (Heaven help us) open mics are open mics. They all serve different needs and all make their own contribution. There is no need to set one against another.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

GUEST spells out the problem. Unfortunately its irresolvable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM

Young guest - what would you advise to change things?
In one folk club I go to a lot of the tables are reserved so the same people sit together so you don't get to know them. I would not recommend that.
FloraG.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM

FloraG: The youngsters I know don't see a need to change things. They have their own places to hang out musically, whether they be festivals, open mics or "acoustic evenings" at a local pub. The people who seem to want to change things are the existing, and largely older, denizens of folk clubs started in the 60s who's members have grown old along with the club and who now, finally, see the writing on the wall for their beloved institutions.

I've said here before that there's a vibrant musical scene all around where I live, but that the various age groups seem quite cut-off from each other, with a few notable exceptions. I've managed to get a number of young people along to some of the "established" folk clubs/ events in the area but they never stick. At least they give it a go...I've never yet managed to get one of my "more mature" acquaintances from one of these clubs to go along to an event organised/ attended by younger people. Too far out of their comfort zones I guess.

Personally, these days, I prefer going to open mics, singarounds and the kind of session that Will Fly alluded to that's held monthly in Ditchling. They seem a lot more relaxed and open to different styles of singing/ playing than a typical "old-fashioned" folk club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM

Rob,
I would agree with a lot of what you said. The atmosphere at the Ditchling session is great (though I hated the acoustics of the room at The Bull) and open mics and singarounds play an important part.
What they don't have and what a folk club does and should have is the ability to bring a variety of the very best performers of varied ages and styles to an area. The ability to see top singers and musicians in an intimate atmosphere should be inspiring to non-musician enthusiasts and to the area's aspiring musicians. The folk club is in a unique position to do this and will only succeed if it takes on this role. If it descends into being a gathering of regular old cronies that does not seek to achieve the presention of excellence then inevitably it will fail.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,The Goose Is Out!
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM

many people on here saying that up and coming clubs don't run the 2 45 minute sets by guest artist and floorsingers format, we've been doing that since we started several years ago -

I see plenty of activity around and about from younger up and coming people starting their own clubs, It's quite refreshing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM

It is a fact of life that old and young won't mix. The very last place I wanted to be when I was young was with a lot of older foggies listening to the likes of Doris Day, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald etc, thats one of the the reasons I went a Folk Club in the first place. Sure you will get some young people through the door, but they tend to go when they have done their spot and rarely come back. The only other youngsters who may stay a bit longer are the sons and daughters of the older performers. Its just the way the world works.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,SqueezeMe
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM

I read this thread title as "Folk Clubs Drying Out". Consequently I ignored it till now as I imagined the op suggesting a return to the coffee bar scene of the '60s. But then again, perhaps this is worth some consideration (or not?) Certainly, the breathalyser has had some effect on reduced attendances, and there are a fair number of people who won't attend functions in pubs for other reasons.

MC (ducking to avoid flying glasses and bottles, though, luckily, no ashtrays these days...)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

It is a fact of life that old and young won't mix. The very last place I wanted to be when I was young was with a lot of older foggies listening to the likes of Doris Day, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald etc, thats one of the the reasons I went a Folk Club in the first place.

You may be right, but I, for one, find this baffling.

When I first started running folk clubs when I was 20. The guest performers that I booked included Bob Copper, Packie Byrne, Willie Scott, Seamus Ennis, Rev. Gary Davis, The Border Shepherds, Scan Tester etc. people old enough to be my grandparents. We had two families who had three generations as club regulars.

Last year, when I was 70, I booked Ben Copper, Jim Causley, Hazel & Emily Askew. Debs Newbold, Laurel Swift and a teenage quartet from Brighton. Matt Quinn was one of the club's residents. All these people are young enough to be my grandchildren.

I find it difficult to see what age has to do with it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

I was thinking along the same lines Vic, where Irish music is concerned it's not at all uncommon for young and old musicians to mix and play music together. Speaking for myself, some years ago I used to play a lot (and recorded a Cd with) a very dear friend who was maybe 35 older, the last time I was playing out (at the end of the Willie Clancy week) I spent several hours playing with a lovely fiddleplayer who is about forty years younger than I am. Not a bother.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM

Vic - I have been to plenty young performers in clubs where every audience member was old enough to be their parents if not grandparents.

The age of booked guests isn't the issue.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 11:32 AM

Vic - I have been to plenty young performers in clubs where every audience member was old enough to be their parents if not grandparents

Spot on, Peter, but in the 1960s this did not seem to be such an issue (three generations of families together in a folk club as I mentioned.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:15 PM

Will we have 'professional'singers for much longer if clubs are turning into sing-arounds or closing? One wonders who will influence and enthuse budding musicians then?
How are folk 'degree' courses recommending that their students use their learning to make a career in music?
I think,much as people disliked it, I think banning smoking had an effect - changed the nature of pubs. Music licences of one sort or another didn't help - a lot of pubs seem to be changing into eateries in order to survive - does folk music fit into this scenario? One of my earliest folk clubs ran in a Bernie Inn!
There seems to be questions - unfortunately not to many viable answers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: oggie
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 06:38 PM

The students on Folk Degree courses are making their careers wherever they can, either in music or without (I belong to that generation where the label on your degree didn't mean that that was what you did afterwards, there isn't much call for professional Economic Historians).

If you look at the Folk courses (or Dog Training or whatever) you'll see they're very similar to a lot of other degrees, only the subject that carries the degree is different. The best (or most hungry) will find a way to make a career in music, most will enjot the degree and then get a "normal" job and music will be a hobby. Whether or not Folk Clubs are still booking guests won't matter to either group, they'll find other outlets as many are already doing.

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 02:36 AM

Guest Chris: Will we have 'professional'singers for much longer if clubs are turning into sing-arounds or closing? One wonders who will influence and enthuse budding musicians then?

I think they'll find outlets. I know of 3 individuals who started off at one open mic I attend who now regularly get paying gigs. Two of them are very "folky".

The young organiser at that one has, in the last year or so, started to get a lot of airplay on 6Music, Radio 2 and some local radio stations, as well as having 3 of his songs played regularly as "background" in a TV soap opera.

I've promoted folk acts myself, including a very successful gig for Katriona Gilmore and Jamie Roberts at The Plaza in Sevenoaks where we managed (by dint of a lot of leafletting and other publicity and holding ticket prices down to £6) to pack in around 120 people. I don't do it to make money (I just did slightly more than break even on that one....I did think I'd made £55 profit until the venue sent me a PRS bill for £36, despite all Katriona and Jamie's songs being either traditional or their own compositions!!!). I just like trying to get better exposure for people I've seen, enjoyed, and think ought to be brought to the attention of more people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:03 AM

One or two on this thread have muttered about the smoking ban having been a negative influence. I am one of the many for whom it's an enormous blessing. I gave up my local club in the 80s apart from very rare visits, partly because I was finding smoke more and more distressing. (It later became non-smoking, but smoke could still come in from just outside.) In the 90s I started going to a different club which was already non-smoking.

A large proportion of those who come to Sharp's sing and/or play, few are really dire (but even those people are invited to perform and get applauded), some are very good indeed and there are all ages, albeit with a majority the wrong side of 50.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

I have been to quite a few folk clubs in the last few years. Some times they are run by the Old timers but the audience usually has a few young people too. The places that seem to do best are the ones who include a bit of Blues, Jazz and C&W as well as traditional Folk. I would travel to any venue that had Harvey Andrews or Winter Wilson or young David Gibb. Others have their favorites and most of these venues get by between big name by playing songs they like and know well and generally end up being Folk playing and singing music they like. Even if its not called a folk club the essential ingredient will still be there


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:46 PM

True people always have and always will get together and create music. However, thats not the issue, the original purpose of Folk Clubs was surely to provide, encourage, sustain, whatever you like to call it Folk and Traditional Music, if you don't call them Folk Clubs, then eventually they will become something else and not do that. As thing stand I cannot see how they can survive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM

thats your problem, mando man go and see your analyst.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:18 PM

I've read this entire thread, and can only come to a single conclusion. Things pass.

Let it go. Does anyone in the pop world still try to hang on to The 2i's Coffee Bar? Of course not. Things change.

Folk music is alive and vibrant amongt young people. Rejoice in that, and don't expect it to be as it was before. That will only bring disappointment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:00 PM

ED you make a good point, whereas Good Soldier Schweik, can only make stupid comments


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:12 PM

When I was a kid my mam used to take my Nanna to something called a Darby and Joan Club ( early 1950's) "What for Mam ?". My mam explained that she met other peope her age and talked about local things - only they knew about. The also had cups of tea , biscuits and a sing song.
(Those were extremely austere times don't forget).
I see a bit of a parallel here in that the Folk clubs seem to comprise people who have retired or are reaching that stage.
Young ones seem reluctant to engage unless they are given the opportunity to perform and preferably paid.
Also in the mix are many people who have taken up the guitar and want to perform with their beloved Lowdens , Taylors or Martins, which many of them only play to a very basic standard.
They want to on THAT STAGE and who can blame or deny them?
Organisers are delighted to have their numbers in attendance and it also helps develop a social side and friendship within the Club. However , as with the Darby and Joan club situation, the Folk club will slowly die out in its' present format as a natural part of social decay.
It may well re-invent itself, but I fear that, todays young people lack( no fault of theirs-just times are different) the things which drove-on the "revival generation" , and e.g. those songs ( which many of us find a pain in the arse now ) i.e. the Wild rover etc etc were an absolute wonder when first we were exposed to them.
There was originally much merit in chorus singing, and, effort by performers to " get the chorus across", all done without the aid of a P.A. system which has to my mind created a barrier between performer(s) and audience in smallish (max 100 folk) rooms.
I still rejoice at listening to Christy Moore , Barbara Dickson , Maddy Prior with Tim Hart , Aly Bain , Matthews Bothers , Carthy - he list is endless - all performing witout P.A.
For me, the P.A. in a smallish room has created an amateur "X factor" feel.
Affluence has been a contributory factor in my thoughts about the Subject matter ,and I'm left with a song which was compiled by Gene Raskin (spelling ) which was rarely sang at folk clubs - because it entered the hit parade and I shall sing it whenever I think about all the lovely people I've ever met in the Folk scene over these last 50 years - " Those were the days my friend(s) ".
If I look to the future and don't forget our British society is rapidly changing from the WASP (plenty of Catholics as well!!) of the REVIVAL, my guess would be that there will be acoustic clubs ( with P.A.) which will incorporate Folk music (as we generally term it) and combine it with the likes of the Beatles, Kinks and other enjoyable music which young folk might regard as nostalgic and entertaining. Who knows ???
The Folk clubs are coming to a dignified end, purely related to the ages of their attendees - no worries - let's hope it's just like a dying fire and that there's still plenty of wood around to get it blazing again.
Might see yaz at Saltburn next weekend Friday 8th August if not , all enjoy what you're doing .
Cheers Betsy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:06 AM

"For me, the P.A. in a smallish room has created an amateur "X factor" feel."
correct, please forgive me Betsy for agreeing with you,I wouldnt want you to by association be accused of making a stupid comment.
"There was originally much merit in chorus singing, and, effort by performers to " get the chorus across", all done without the aid of a P.A. system which has to my mind created a barrier between performer(s) and audience in smallish (max 100 folk) rooms"
agreed , with the proviso there still is much merit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:39 AM

Get out into the pubs in your area on a weekend having asked the publican if they would like live folk music and song, publicise it in music shops, colleges and shop windows


Play and sing and wait for the response

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 06:01 AM

Betsy, a pretty good critique if I might say so, everything you say highlights the problem others seem to deny.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Betsy
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 06:13 AM

Hi Padge , you forgot to insert " Sam Smiths " Pubs.
OK -- I'm just being a bit mischievous.
A number of us (varying between 8 and 12) meet on Mondays in a pub.
Some good musicians, and, anyone can sing what the F8ck he or she wants, when and for as many songs as they want.
It really works - tunes the same.
The Landlord populates an empty space, and punters listen, come and go
and of course spend a few bob on "pop".
If the same musicians went to a Folk Club they'd have to pay a couple of quid entrance privilege, and need to hang about to sing one song or a couple of tunes, but THAT suits some people.
Padge I'll see ya next weekend at Saltburn mate.
Dick ,I'm thrilled that we seem to concur - not 100%, but that's good enough for me ( and you ) I hope.

Cheers

Betsy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:53 AM

Betsy's first post is very true but I also agree with what Vic Smith sais some way back. Although the home-made music and choruses were very much a part of what turned me on to this stuff, it was also a huge thrill to able to watch really top-notch singers and musicians performing jut a few feet away, in a room maybe just twice the size of my living room. And, although people have moaned for years about 'library-like atmosphere' and so on, those small acoustic spaces were and are probably the best place to put over a ballad and get rapt attention from an audience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 09:11 AM

"And, although people have moaned for years about 'library-like atmosphere' and so on, those small acoustic spaces were and are probably the best place to put over a ballad and get rapt attention from an audience."
absolutely because the audience have come specifically to LISTEN to the music


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM

How many folk clubs ever get rid of their MC?

How many pension-age MCs ever get rid of their decades-old presentation style?

I'm sure a lot of younger people would find the acts in a folk club just fine, but wouldn't get past the toe-curling introductions by geriatrics who sound like a cross between Jimmy Savile and a church fete bingo caller.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM

is that right. I wonder. aren't we better at home listening to Paul Brady sing Arthur Mcbride or Peggy and the Soldier on the stereo, than the last few versions I've heard.

the folk club -   sometimes - well it puts you under a microscope -sometimes the scrutiny doesn't help some performers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:20 AM

and again - lets face it - there are no longer (for whatever reason) enough clubs to support all of us who perform.

gone are the days when Christy Moore could embark on a two month tour of Lancashire.

so that means either the musicians, those of us who wish to attain some proficiency in our music, the kind that comes from devoting your life - either we find work outside folkclubs. or its just an absorbing hobby.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:39 AM

Al - you make me ponder about how much demand there is -and is it growing or declining? I looked at the Broadstairs programme and was surprised to see very few of what I would think of as headliners. As most people buy season tickets my thoughts were - are they cutting back on the cost of these acts?
FloraG.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:58 AM



On the other hand, he now manages to sell out runs of several nights in venues seating thousands in a matter of hours.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:01 AM

That previous post was in response to:

gone are the days when Christy Moore could embark on a two month tour of Lancashire.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,bathfolkfest
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:10 AM

In Bath we've realized that the only way to keep folk alive is to get kids involved. We run workshops for 8-18 year olds and have just got Arts Council funding to set up a youth band. The band will be performing their first gig alongside Ards CCE(the highly acclaimed youth band from Ireland) as part of the Bath Folk Festival(9th -17th August.) We also run a traditional summer school as part of the festival which is open to adults and children. It's a great way for people to practise new skills or maybe rekindle those that are a bit rusty. If you're in the area we would be delighted for you to join us- lots of great headline acts, sessions on every afternoon and evening, ceilidhs etc etc. If you're not local you can camp for £30 for the whole festival. Check out the website if you want to find out more www.bathfolkfest.org Hope to see some of you there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM

Sorry - the website you need is www.bathfolkfestival.org.
Too many late nights- don't know what I'm doing!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:58 AM

well done bathfolk fest, a positive response.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 25 September 10:42 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.