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Song challenge. PC national anthem

Mo the caller 27 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Eliza 27 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 27 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM
Stanron 27 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM
Newport Boy 27 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 27 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 27 Jul 14 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,ketchdana 27 Jul 14 - 12:33 PM
Musket 27 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM
Nigel Parsons 27 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM
Musket 27 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM
Padre 27 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM
GUEST, topsie 27 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM
Richard Mellish 27 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 14 - 05:56 PM
Ged Fox 28 Jul 14 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 28 Jul 14 - 05:23 AM
Richard Mellish 28 Jul 14 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Jul 14 - 05:29 AM
GUEST, topsie 28 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM
Mo the caller 28 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM
Gallus Moll 28 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM
Joe_F 28 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Texas Guest 29 Jul 14 - 01:03 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Jul 14 - 01:11 AM
Jim McLean 29 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM
Musket 29 Jul 14 - 05:31 AM
Joe_F 29 Jul 14 - 09:10 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Jul 14 - 01:13 AM
GUEST,Manuel 28 Oct 14 - 01:02 PM
GUEST 28 Oct 14 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Manuel 28 Oct 14 - 07:10 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Oct 14 - 06:20 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Oct 14 - 12:55 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 14 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,giovanni 30 Oct 14 - 03:52 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Oct 14 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 30 Oct 14 - 05:54 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Oct 14 - 07:01 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Oct 14 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Andy Capp 30 Oct 14 - 06:49 PM
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Subject: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

After reading a discussion elsewhere about the Commonwealth Games I wonder if the time for National anthems is past.
Read the words of e.g.
God Save the Queen, Land of Hope & Glory, Jerusalem.
They make assumption about the religion of the citizen (Protestant, with a God who fight for us and against everyone else or a mystic version of Christianity)
They glory in colonialism 'wider still and wider'

So, if you were starting from scratch, what would you write for your country (state which).
It's got to be singable and suitable to celebrate it's triumphs without denigrating other countries. Is that possible?

I could say no parody and making fun of PC (which is just a useful abreviation and by which I mean polite & sensitive), but this is Mudcat so I doubt if that would stop you :)


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

Billy Connelly's suggestion is my favourite; The Archers theme tune sung to 'la la la'.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM

There is a suitable song already written. Leon Rosselson's The World Turned Upside Down is a brilliant song, set to a superb tune, and reflects the kinds of values, IE., sharing, co-operation, everybody working for the common good, which any national anthem should express.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

I might be wrong and I'm not intending to offend anyone here but from what I know about catters my guess is that 'Keep the red flag flying' would be just about perfect.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Newport Boy
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM


After reading a discussion elsewhere about the Commonwealth Games I wonder if the time for National anthems is past.


I think "jingoistic" should be added - the time for jingoistic National Anthems is certainly past. Any anthem that proclaims superiority over other nations is a driver of conflict.

We don't need to start from scratch in Wales - we have a good anthem, diolch yn fawr!

Phil


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 12:19 PM

Jingoistic. That was the very word I was looking for. Wiuldn't that be dandy. A national anthem which extolled the virtues of its people or its lakes and rivers and mountains, or even of its folksongs. Even better if it was set to a decent tune instead of Dah dah dah dah dah dah etc.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 12:24 PM

And one which celebrated world peace and farternity with the rest of the human race.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,ketchdana
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 12:33 PM

Lou & Peter Berryman sing a template (for U.S. states) which perhaps could be adapted to countries.
One of many on youtube: "Your State's Name Here"


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM

I suppose a song that brings us all together?

There ain't one...

There are songs that celebrate the diversity of a land / community / village / world / universe / tap room of a pub but celebrate diversity and you are accused of giving too much credence to "that lot over there."

Anthems celebrating national boundaries are boundary forming, so rather odd if they waffle on about world peace or fraternity.

I prefer irony. Songs about kicking the shit out of Scots, pretending to believe in God and celebrating murdering, pillaging and raping Johnny Foreigner. That's the stuff! We are getting close to when The BBC cameras will at the Albert Hall, the front row with the flags, singing along to Glory Pomp and Circumstance of Glorious War. Elgar's stunning music to less than stunning thoughts...

I find nationalism repugnant. One small victory was a paddock I rent out to a bloke with a couple of horses for his daughter. I asked him to remove the union flag he put up in the field. he refused, so now he pays over twice as much to keep his horses elsewhere and I have new four legged tenants with much nicer owners, who also pay on time for that matter...


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM

From: GUEST,Fred McCormick - PM
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 12:24 PM

And one which celebrated world peace and farternity with the rest of the human race.


I love it, "The farternity of Mudcat", all us old farts together.
This one deserves to get into the dictionaries!

However, I see a lot of hits on Google. Surely they can't all be typos.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM

Once you reach an age, it's whenever you bend to get your guitar off of the stand on stage...


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Padre
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM

You could not have it sung in any language other than Esperanto, or you would be accused of favoring one language over another. And you would have to write it in several 'tone clusters; to avoid the accusation of favoring "Western" music (or "Eastern" music). Perhaps the best answer is the anthem should be sung on a single tone (the peoples' key of C comes to mind) with no words other than the Esperanto word for 'Homeland' repeated over and over for 16 bars.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM

We could just ditch the words altogether and only have the tune - it works for Spain.

It always strikes me as strange that 'God save the queen' is played for other members of the royal family, such as for Prince Charles or the Duke of Edinburgh on their birthdays. I can't remember anyone ever greeting me on my birthday with 'Happy birthday. I hope your mother has a long and happy life'.

On the other hand, if a group of British people feel themselves challenged by another nationality and want to sing out in defiance they are more likely to sing 'Rule Britannia', rather than 'God save the queen' or 'Land of hope and glory'. I think 'Rule Britannia', just up to and including the line about never being slaves (keep it short and meaningful), would be a better national anthem, with the current national anthem being reserved for royal occasions.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM

Musket referred to "Songs about kicking the shit out of Scots, pretending to believe in God and celebrating murdering, pillaging and raping Johnny Foreigner." The UK National Anthem is an instance of "God on our side", calling on God to bash Johnny Foreigner.

It might seem a good thing that only the first, reasonably innocuous, verse is normally sung and probably few people know the rest; but perhaps if everyone was reminded of the rest of the words there would be more support for scrapping them entirely (except of course from the far right parties, who would want the whole thing to be sung every time).

Meanwhile, in response to the challenge, I nominate Maggie Holland's A Place Called England.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:56 PM

Britain should embrace Sheer Law (Yorksheer that is) and the Anthem shall be:

Wheer 'asta bin since I saw thee?
On Headingley's sacred ground, baht 'at.
And didst tha catch thi death o' cold
Between the strokes of Boycott's bat?
And could the worms have etten thee
As tha walked o'er the Yorkshire hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Twixt Halifax an' Hull, an' t'mills?

I shall not cease from being tight,
Nor shall my cap rest in my hand
Till we seen, but not said nowt,
Of Dykes and Mills and Boone's Brass Band!


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:22 AM

The UK national anthem may be an instance of "God on our side" but it is not, in the three verses "usually" sung, about kicking Johnny Foreigner.

The third verse calls for blessings on the monarch and expresses the wish that he/she does the job properly.

The second verse, although sometimes said "to be sung in times of war," is a verse asking for protection against internal faction and strife. "Scatter his enemies" applied to Jacobites etc., with their knavish tricks and politicks. If the nation is at war, of course, then a wish to defeat the enemy might be a good thing.

As long as we have a monarch, "God save the king" is almost as p.c. as you could get.

But, just for the atheists:

Cheer for our gracious King
Health to our noble King
Long live the King.
Send him victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
Long live the King.

Let honest people rise,
Scatter his enemies
And make them fall.
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
Confound their politicks,
Peace in our land be fixed,
Union with all.

Let Earth's best gifts in store
For ever on him pour,
Long may he reign.
May he defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice
God save the King.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:23 AM

Sorry about the typo, folks. The one where I spelt fraternity as farternity.

Even so, it's a thought.

"I'd like to teach the world to fart
In perfect harmony....."


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:25 AM

> The second verse, although sometimes said "to be sung in times of war," is a verse asking for protection against internal faction and strife. "Scatter his enemies" applied to Jacobites etc., with their knavish tricks and politicks.

I acknowledge that Jacobites were the most immediately relevant enemies when the words were first written, but they soon ceased to be significant, and assorted other enemies have been fought since then, mostly external (although these days we also have terrorists to contend with). Many of them were enemies of the political establishment but hardly enemies of the common people, for example the Americans when they fought for independence. And what about Napoleon, with all those English-language songs treating him as the hero?

Anyway enough of this thread drift. Who else is in favour of A Place Called England? And what other offerings are there?


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:29 AM

May the world unite in peace,
Wisdom, friendship, and justice.
And in sports, the best may win;
No more doping! No more sin!


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM

'A Place Called England' would be good as an anthem for England, but 'Rule Britannia' covers the whole of Britain. Maybe we should wait until after the big vote in September.
(Maggie Holland wrote it on a train travelling north. Does she still have a home in Edinburgh?)


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM

The OP was prompted by discussion elsewhere about the 'anthem' used by the English team at the Commonwealth Games, so we need an English one too. I'm not even sure how far God Save the Queen covers, presumably not all of the Commonwealth, IOM? Channel Islands?


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

At least the present one is nice & short ~~ just see how long one has to sit thru some of the other interminably boring ones before they let the match kick off. It's reasonably pacific, rather than as militaristic as the French & US -- both of which have fine tunes, mind: & I rather like the French idea that one's national hymn should celebrate "impure [=foreign?] blood irrigating our plough-furrows"! That's telling 'em!

But my usual plea: why not just stick with what we have, on the basis of that profound piece of wisdom, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

I believe the song used as the national anthem of England / UK was originally written as the Jacobites and Bonnie Prince Charlie were getting closer to London -- the song was sung in theatres and the like to try to rally the locals who were panicking and leaving town? (I am not a historian by the way!)
I am sure I have seen versions of the second verse which actually mentions Scots, not (just) Jacobites -- - - I have always had a strong objection to the whole concept of being required to stand for an anthem (as happened after any function / gathering including cinema, theatre, when I was young. Particularly as the monarch is incorrectly titled (she is Elizabeth I of the UK).
I do not believe that anyone is born 'better' than me, nor do I believe in titles / medals / garden parties / inherited wealth.
For a national - or international - song about humanity. equality, fairness there are plenty from which to choose - the first two that come to my mind are Robert Burns' Is there for Honest Poverty and Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye (Hamish Henderson NoBE!!)


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM

The English, the English, the English are best.
I wouldn't give twopence for all of the rest. -- Flanders & Swann


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:03 AM

I've always felt that "America The Beautiful" should be the national anthem for my country rather than the "Star-Spangled Banner." My understanding is that prior to SSB getting the nod by presidential appointment, the two were neck-and-neck. There have been several attempts to get it changed over the years but too many Americans are into the military thing and it gets shot down. The first verse is all most folks know and it is pretty much about the beauty and bountiful aspects of the nation. Again, a much better song, in my opinion, than the SSB.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:11 AM

But, Joe F, that one would now be archaic, as the pronunciation "tuppence", referring to two old pennies, now obsolete: and "two pence", as we say in new currency [since 1971 when we went decimal] would not have same effect. Tho it has the same advantage as present one, whose retention I urge again on plea that it is, unlike so many of the rest, so mercifully brief.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM

I have no trick with national anthems but in a side note to Gallus Moll's " Hamish Henderson NoBE" He was offered an 'honour' as was Marion Blythman, wife of Thurso Berwick but both refused.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:31 AM

By coincidence, I have been asked to learn Hal an Tow, a band I have agreed to be part of for a one off gig like to end with it.

Listening to the words for possibly the first time since seeing Oyster Band perform it many moons ago, it occurred to me that this song has the jingoistic Englishness about it without being elitist.

So.. If you must have either an anthem or change of anthem, that'd be my tuppence' worth.

(Where I come from, tuppence means something else as well....)


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:10 PM

MtheGM: A little archaism does no harm in ceremonial texts. Probably few Americans these days could parse "Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation" correctly (not to mention "As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal").

The English, the English, the English are good,
And moral and modest and misunderstood.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:13 AM

Joe F -- indeed. But you miss my point. I have no objection to archaisms; I simply point out that I don't think any of the present generation would know how to pronounce 'twopence' correctly.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Manuel
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 01:02 PM

This is just my personal observation: I am strongly inclined to doubt that the real Eliza is responsible for the above posting of 27 July 2014 to this thread. I firmly believe that it was the real Eliza who, in an earlier posting of 8 July 2014, announced that she would stop posting on Mudcat and bade us all goodbye. If, as I further believe, Eliza is the person whom she consistently made herself out to be, I cannot imagine that she would have quietly sneaked back into the Cafe after having bid us all goodbye.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 01:17 PM

What an odd comment to make three months down the line.

Did it ever occur to you that the world might contain more than one person called Eliza?

Are you a bit dim?


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Manuel
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 07:10 PM

My point is that, after her announcement that she would never again post on this website, the dear and special lady who for years interacted with us in this Cafe, under the name "Eliza", sharing with us her positive outlook, abundant wisdom and winning sense of humour, seems to have been impersonated by someone. As to the timing of my post, I know of no limitation period for posting on any thread which happens still to be open. Your ill-mannered reply, which I find fatuous rather than offensive, reminds me of the old adage: "the hog which shrieks out and gets agitated is the one struck by the falling stone".


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 06:20 PM

Nothing wrong with the tune. Just needs new lyrics that don't mention religion, monarchy, jingoism, war-mongering etc.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 12:55 AM

Don't believe in God. Only pro-Queen coz there she is, & if it ain't broke...

But, even so, on same basis as this latter, just let it be, eh?

And one thing in its favour is that it is a good exemplar for recollection of the main use of the subjunctive. (☝☝☝-up if you hadn't realised that line 1 is a subjunctive, not an imperative! - it is not telling the deity to save her, but expressing the wish that He may do so...)

Send me victorious!...!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 03:16 AM

From my young days in Liverpool

Rule Britannia,
Marmalade and jam,
Five Chinese crackers up your areshole,
Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

Tune obvious
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 03:52 AM

re the decimalised "two pence" versus the old 'tuppence" ......

it's even worse if there's only one of them

You are more likely to hear "a one pence piece" instead of "a penny"

Seems as if some of the populace believes a hundredth of a pound to be "a pence"

Don't you just love it.

g


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 04:46 AM

No, I hate it. I remember that prize fool George Brown once talking of one pence in his Chancellor's Budget speech in the House, no less! Triple-ugh-in-♠♠♠♠♠♠!

The country's going to the dogs. D'ya hear! The dogs, I tell you!.....

Er --- dashit

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 05:54 AM

A thought recently occurred to me. The 3:2 measure (sometimes called the triple hornpipe measure in folkish circles) more or less disappeared from our national music in the 19th century. And so it remains, despite its noble contours and its recent fashionability on the folk session scene. Oddly enough, however, the two (arguably) best-known tunes in modern Britain are both composed in that obscure measure: God Save The Queen and Happy Birthday To You. Anybody noticed?


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 07:01 AM

Hey, I can sing in 3:2! Now there's a good reason for keeping the tune at least. Well spotted, Raymond!


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 04:34 PM

Remembered from my childhood, the Siamese (now Thai) national anthem, to the same tune as God save the Queen:

Owa, tana Siam.
Owa, tana Siam,
Owa tanas.


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Subject: RE: Song challenge. PC national anthem
From: GUEST,Andy Capp
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 06:49 PM

Once, Sir, I had a job
Now I just rub me knob
Gi' us a break

Too many Polticians
All on the bloody scam
And I carry the can
Gi' us a break


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