AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:53 AM

So no change there then.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

Lloyd's position as a conflater, improver, and inventor of songs isn't really comparable to that of post-1960 revival singers.

Few of them have had Lloyd's expertise, and few ever suggested they were doing more than making music. They were city people who had learned the songs from books and from Lloyd and MacColl. No one really thought of them as being especially close to "the folk," though they certainly hoped to be.

Lloyd, however, stressed the importance to the songs of history and culture, and the significance of the songs *in* history and culture. He seemed to be just one small step away from a supposedly living tradition. He talked with and learned rare songs straight from ordinary people, or so it seemed. He'd been a whaler. He was the chanteyman in Moby Dick. He was dedicated to folk styles, and he sang unaccompanied or with Alf Edwards's atmospheric concertina. He wrote some of the most knowledgeable and literate sleeve notes in trad music. He had a great stage and LP presence.

When that sort of person lets you down, you notice.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:13 PM

1-9-5-4 what are we waiting for?

Bert Lloyd SELECTED some great songs VARIED them and in so doing contributed to their CONTINUITY in the revival repertoire.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 05:46 PM

No need for the CAPITALS, Stuart. We've all already said this.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:14 PM

Sorry Steve, I'm suitably chastised. Just stuck in that hazy Woodstock mode - skim the details, thrust hands in the air and shout slogans.

But Times New Roman is a migraine-inducing font...

Subject: RE: ALloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:54 PM

When that sort of person lets you down, you notice. Unless your name is Nick Dow. Then you stumble across the truth and hardly believe it.
I'm still taking consolation in the bigger picture though.
I wonder why Bert felt he had to fabricate information when he was respected and admired by so many

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:12 PM

LLOYD, is someone that many people of of the revival, owe a lot. he improved many songs and did much good to the tradition,
scholars and wankers, who are more concerned with academia get their knickers in a twist about him, well, that is their problem., he contributed much to,the UK folk revival. sound man, Bert.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM

Dick, why mention "wankers"? Who do you have in mind?

It's not only in academia that bogus information is to be deplored. Brightly shining teeth are a fun concept, but some people have been misled by those words. (Not that Lloyd was the first to produce a spoof: Baring-Gould did it with The Brown Girl.)

It has been pretty clearly demonstrated that Lloyd invented some of his supposed sources. There's a German proverb that translates as "If he tells lies, don't believe him even when he speaks the truth".

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:58 AM

The point is precisely the one Lighter makes - most of us think Lloyd's song reworkings are excellent, but the problem is that he wrote a bloody great book setting English folk song in a historical context, which many of us lapped up, and which coloured our approach to and presentation of the songs. People can hardly be blamed for feeling let down if that fascinating and colourful account turns out to be a bit dodgy in some respects.

'Scholars and wankers' Which one am I, Dick? Or do you mean the two categories are indistinguishable?

I thought Stuart Reed's post was clever, though.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:08 AM

I may have said this before:

"If they had to alter songs, make up songs and talk 'seriously' about folk songs then they did - does it happen in any other genre of music that the performers explain the origin and meaning of songs before they sing them?. They did this essentially for political reasons - to raise working class consciousness and bring Revolution nearer."

In fact most of us enyoyed the pre-song chat and the seriousness that it lent to singing old songs in public. Lots of us did it and still do. I think Dave Bishop described Singarounds as "Singing folk songs and talking b*llocks".

It's a bit like the manufactured folklore that is still perpetrated by men who dance the Morris. I guess it's because most men cannot simply dance together in public.

But Brian is spot on about Bert and his book. I have read it three or four times and some of it stands and some of it doesn't.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:12 AM

Are people upset with Bert for his manipulation of material and facts, which led to some great songs or themselves for failing to realize what he did for so long?
I think a bit of both

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:21 AM

Probably right Derrick

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:44 AM

Brian, you are a good singer and instrumentalist.
I still think it is the problem of scholars if they think
scholastic accuracy is more important than producing good repertoire and improving the overall repertoire.
yes I do think these people are wankers, because in my opinion they have their priorities confused, as a singer and performer rather than a scholar, I believe that the songs Lloyd "collected" have improved the overall folk song repertoire, and from my perspective as someone who is more concerned with performance and having good material to perform, that this is more important than his lack of scholastic accuracy, or the attempts to discredit Lloyd and disacredit his reputation over scholastic accuracy.
it seems to me to be extremely negative for people to go on about this aspect of Lloyds work, in my opinion it is more important to look at the positives of Lloyd, I have no time for negativity of any sort,and i regard people who harp on about lloyd in a negative way as wankers.
Lloyd has been dead for many years ,please give this tedious, negative stuff a rest.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:17 AM

Dick, Steve Roud has written a very good summary of the arguments regarding the different priorities of 'Editors and Performers' in his introduction to 'The New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs'. Some of the people you describe with your characteristic good grace as 'wankers' are scholars first and singers second, or not at all. Hardly surprising that those people should want to examine the scholarship of a man once considered the leader in the field.

I'm a singer, not a scholar, but as a singer of old songs I'm really interested in where the songs came from, who sang them, why they sang them, and so on. My pursuit of the roots of the 'Bertsongs' is more like unravelling a detective mystery than trying to discredit anyone. I never met Bert, but every single person I've talked to that knew him spoke in glowing terms of his inspiration, intelligence and humour. Dave Arthur's biography gives a great account of his achievements, without skating over the controversial points.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM

Brian, like you I am a singer not a scholar, I am also interested in origins of songs, however if song is a good song or it was written by Lloyd and not traditional it does not put me off singing it, my reason for singing a song is the merit of the words or tune its origins are of interest to me but very much secondary.
I do not like your description "charactristic good grace",I did not single out any one person a a wanker, but all those people who appear to wish to discredit Lloyd and concentrate on his negatives rather than positives are in my opinion wankers, it is fairly well established as to which tradtional songs Lloyd probably wrote, but we will never be 100 per cent sure.. as he is dead, far better in my opinion to be grateful to Lloyd for improving the repertoire than going on a detective mystery which in my opinion cannot be solved, however if you wish to spend your time on that, thats your business, mean while I will look at Lloyds positives and enjoy the songs he "collected" chacun a son gout.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:24 AM

Dick Please pack it in will you. I have got a very long way on the Folkscene and in life generally by keeping my mouth shut and listening and then asking questions of those, including Bert face to face by the way, who know better than me. The first post in this thread was just that-respectfully asking for opinions, not abusing those who have a different opinion to me.
I learned to sing face to face with a traditional singer who taught me all his father taught him. I would have been devastated if he had been proved to be making some of it up. He wasn't but Bert it appears, was, and that hurts. The people who have kindly replied have been trying to make me understand the bigger picture, and taking the trouble to write some very long posts. they don't need to be called 'wankers'.
I stood up for 5 hours once while a Gypsy painter taught me how to decorate a Gypsy Wagon in 23 1/2 carat gold. He took the trouble because I treated him with respect, despite my schooling and ability to read and write, which is something he could not do. If I can do anything at all it's because I have learned from people who can do it better. So if you have an opinion I want to hear it, but if you feel the need to be offensive I would prefer you kept it to yourself.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:29 AM

Well put Nick.

One problem on here is many people don't read the whole thread and it often turns sour after 20 or 30 posts regardless of the topic

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:00 AM

Anyone producing what purports to be a scholarly work should expect to be judged by academic criteria. Presenting made up information and passing it off as true is unpardonable. People exposing such actions are not wankers, they are rigorous academics doing their job.
john

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:27 AM

> I'm really interested in where the songs came from, who sang them, why they sang them, and so on.

The traditional idioms and premises are so different from those of pop genres that such talking such "ballocks" is necessary to introduce any ordinary person to the songs.

Dance music, maybe not.

The singer who visited our public elementary school in 1957 with his repertoire of folksong showed me as a child that songs and stories were more than just shiny (or sometimes mysterious) surface. I don't know about any of the other kids, but I, for one, remain grateful.

To each his own.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 09:12 AM

"Presenting made up information and passing it off as true is unpardonable."
I am referring to to Lloyd making up songs and passing them off as tradtional, I do not think there is anything wrong with that, in fact Lloyd did us a favour, he enriched our repertoire, at that time it is possible and in my opinion probable, that those songs that lloyd collected or wrote, would not have been sung, if Lloyd had been honest. Lloyds actions have to be seen in the context of the time that they were done, it is sad comment on the UK revival at that time.
Tradtional song has always been made up, altered[consciously or unconciously], that is the nature of a living TRADTION.
Nick Dow says"I would have been devastated if he had been proved to be making some of it up".
ok, lets take the song While Gamekeepers lie sleeping, a fragment of a song generally speaking, apart from the version Bob Roberts sings, which has an interesting storyline, I believe although i cannot prove[anymore than anyone can prove Lloyd wrote the recruited collier] Bob Roberts made it up, I am not devastated, I sing the song on its merits, because it is the best version, that should in my opinion be the criteria for singing a song.. its merits.
Bob Roberts [tradtional singer] sang the song and by not saying anything about its origins gave the impression it was traditional, has or did anyone criticise/ criticised Roberts for doing this, I dont think so, yet people are crticising for Bert for POSSIBLY doing something similiar.
Nick Dow says "If I can do anything at all it's because I have learned from people who can do it better"
here he speaks the truth
like myself he listened to traditional singers as well as revival singers and guitarist like Jones and Carthy, and his blues style has also resulted in listening as he says to" people who can do it better"
but rarely do people in other fields other than UK TRAD get so upset about The so called passing off of songs which are in fact composed and then passed off as trad songs, yet they forget that all songs were composed at some point and many trad songs have been altered by anonymous writers sometimes accidentally, sometimes deliberately, the nature of a healthy tradition is that it evolves and incorprates new songs.
I repeat, no one criticises Bob Roberts[trad singer] for improving songs and not admitting to it, yet we have a lot of talk about Lloyd, double standards?

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM

I suspect that most of us agree with most of what you say Dick. but it is becoming clear that Bert was 'editing' songs to make political points about working class culture because he couldn't find what he wanted in the collected tradition of songs.

Most of his interventions were artistically sound. But that is not the point.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 09:34 AM

And there's the rub. The confusion between a modern or ancient Folk process, and the reporting/collecting from that process.
Bert could and did sing what he liked how he liked with the words he liked, same as the rest of us. We swiped his songs right left and centre. so far no problem.
When you become a collector,and remember I've been there, you report what you find, as well as you know how. Rewrite songs if you want to sing them by all means but publish the originals with honesty.
Bert didn't. Problems begin. It's as simple and difficult as that.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:13 AM

"While Gamekeepers lie sleeping, a fragment of a song generally speaking, apart from the version Bob Roberts sings..."

I'll take on trust what you say about Bob Roberts embellishing the story, but Bob Copper knew seven verses of the song, which is a pretty large fragment. Anyway Bob Roberts didn't set himself up as the leading expert, didn't write a book, didn't publish his recreations, etc., etc., so there's no comparison with Bert.

"yet they forget that all songs were composed at some point and many trad songs have been altered by anonymous writers..."

The kind of people you were referring to so disparagingly know all of that very well.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:55 AM

As a singer, Bert was entitled to adapt any song he wished.
The problem came with his 'scholarship' status, and the claims he made for those songs (even as a singer, he stretched things by introducing them as 'typically English" when they were no such thing.
I have been doing some research on Edith Fowke's Canadian collection and have stumbled on several which I have heard Bert describe as "prime examples" of English or Irish songs.
Politically, I always found Bert somewhat wishy-washy, certainly not in the same 'commitment' league as Ewan, but both of them approached traditional songs from a 'class pride' point of view, rather than a political one and believed folk songs were creations of the working classes, mainly rural with some industrial ones thrown in.
Personally, I share that belief - I have been staggered at the number of 'hand-made' anonymous songs that were still being sung here in The West of Ireland up to twenty years ago which never entered the mainstream song tradition because of their local nature and were obvious creations of farmers, fishermen and land labourers.   
I did a little work in Manchester Central Library in the 1960s which threw up songs of the same type from 19th century Industrial Lancashire - working man, it seems to me, has always been a natural song-maker.
To me, Bert did some excellent work which was somewhat undermined by the way he went about things pity.
He may have 'messed about with songs', which didn't please all the academics but, to my ear anyway, he always stayed faithful to the reason they were first created.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:50 AM

"He may have 'messed about with songs', which didn't please all the academics but, to my ear anyway, he always stayed faithful to the reason they were first created.   
Jim Carroll"
Iagree Jim
Brian, Bob Roberts did write books for example BREEZE FOR A BARGEMAN, and i am sure that somewhere i read that he wrote the song" SWELL MY NETS FULL", and he probably wrote The Oily Rigs monologue, he did not claim to be a scholar [true] but he was clearly capable of writing good stories, which brought me to the conclusion that he wrote part of a most unusual and unique version of while gamekeepers lie sleeping., which appears not to have been collected by anyone, which is suspicious.
what is this seven verse version of bob coppers? does it bear any relationship to bob roberts[i doubt it] if its the same as tom willetts version, storywise willetts version may have seven verses but not much of a story, and no resemblance to Roberts' version

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:31 PM

"He may have 'messed about with songs', which didn't please all the academics but, to my ear anyway, he always stayed faithful to the reason they were first created
How is swiping a tune from Somerset called The Irish Boy, attaching it to a song from Kidson, missing out a bit he didn't like about the class status of the characters, inventing a singer then pretending he'd collected it staying faithful to anything?????

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:37 PM

"inventing a singer then pretending he'd collected it staying faithful to anything?????"
can you prove this, or is this one of your assumptions.
you really would be better off doing what you are good at, playing the guitar in either the style of Nic Jones or Martin Carthy.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:45 PM

Last time I heard Nick perform, he wasn't playing in the style of either Jones or Carthy, in fact he was in standard tuning. It was lovely accompaniment, though, and he's in really fine voice these days!

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM

That was uncalled for Dick. Try reading some of the posts here especially the ones between Brian and myself. When you've done that come back and say something relevant to the discussion. It's not about me and how I play guitar, It's about Bert Lloyd.
It isn't clever to keep upsetting people by calling them stupid names your only hurting yourself.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

Yes, Dick. Must follow this drift to say that, though he tends to use full-sweep chords, Nick's style is by no means as percussive as that of Martin or Nic; who also use open tunings, which Nick generally doesn't, but picks or sweeps the chords in standard tuning, with good positional full-keyboard control.

Don't get too like another regular poster, whom I shan't name, but who notoriously tends to let his temper carry him away, to post things he sometimes subsequently regrets.

All best regards, anyhow

≈M≈

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:38 PM

Dick,
You are again making a fool of yourself. You are really the only unreasonably NEGATIVE person on this thread. If you are going to continue here, please take the trouble to read through the whole thread and take note that everyone who has posted has praised Bert for his creativity. All they are saying is that it is a shame about his dishonesty!

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM

Thanks for that, lets get back to Bert. I understood that McColl was a Stalinist, however I did not believe that Bert was. The reason I mention that at all is that the Stalinist philosophy is that the end justifies the means. That might explain Berts' actions. No doubt you will put me right if I'm way off course.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:00 PM

i don't know about the major questions but the bit about pit boots being taken from somewhere..i am sure there are dozens of people describing their boots or aprons or whatever in songs...and it is a line someone would come up with naturally anyway.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:02 PM

This is only an opinion based on reading between the lines in Dave Arthur's excellent bio, but I don't think Bert did what he did with songs as much for political reasons as for a need to be accepted as a scholar, perhaps even The Scholar.

If you have the time, Nick, I strongly recommend Dave's book. It goes into great detail on Bert's political affiliations.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:08 PM

"inventing a singer then pretending he'd collected it "
If that's what he did, I have no doubt you are right as far as his claims and aspirations of 'scholarship' - as a singer, it does't really matter - traditional singers lifted tunes and substituted new directions for songs all the time to suit themselves all the time.- no problem as long as no academic were made of the new production.
As far as you later posting is concerned, I was offered a good piece of advice recently on this very subject - if you don't wind the clock it eventually stops
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:22 PM

'as a singer, it does't really matter'. Absolutely, Jim.

I don't remember anyone on this thread or any other similar thread suggesting otherwise.

I'll even go further than that: If Bert passed on his productions to other singers on the revival this also doesn't matter, all part of the creative process.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM

Yes I get that, but where I am floundering is the responsibilities of the collector to his informant, and to his readers or listeners if it's recorded. Do what you want with the songs after the original is fixed, and thus keep winding the clock. For the record Berts translations and rewrites were masterful Bloody Gardener Twa Magicians etc. that's not dishonesty, its art, however some of his other actions seemed to me at the beginning of this thread, strangely out of character. I'm still a bit adrift, but reassured by the posts here. Just trying to make sense of it all, hence the 'Stalinist' question above.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:54 PM

Writing songs in the folk idiom is perfectly acceptable, and many such songs acquire the traditional label, even though only written decades ago. Reworking old songs for performance is also generally acceptable ( some of a more traditional persuasion may disagree.) What collectors find problematic is people who invent histories for songs which then become accepted as truthful accounts.
The late John Meredith was less than complementary regading Lloyd's song collecting in Australia.
'In my opinion, the best memorial A. L. Lloyd could have would be a bonfire of all the phony concoctions he has passed off as Australian folk songs over the last 25 years or so, the bulk of which has little in common with Australian material collected in the field.' He went on to say that most of Lloyd's texts had been acquired from the work of other folklorists, including Meredith himself, and that he had fitted to these songs 'whatever British tune Lloyd considered suitable--in other words, concoctions'
(A.L. Lloyd in Australia: some conclusions.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A.L.+Lloyd+in+Australia%3A+some+conclusions.-a0154804211
(John Meredith, 'A Depreciation of A. L. Lloyd', Stringybark & Greenhide, 4.3 (1983), 14)

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:15 PM

True, but I have heard from at least one well-informed Australian scholar the opinion that Meredith was unfairly harsh on Lloyd. I've just been looking at a version of 'Wild Rover' that Lloyd recorded, having collected in NSW in 1929. It certainly isn't one that he copied from Meredith or any other collector over there.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:17 PM

Hi John,
Which is why I said earlier that once a scholar/antiquarian/folklorist/collector has been outed then all of their work must come under suspicion, and it can only then be verified and declared suitable for use by scholars as from tradition by extensive study of the alleged sources where they exist.

I think John Meredith's suggestions are totally unwarranted for reasons we have given above; largely Bert produced some damned good songs.

For instance not even Peter Buchan's most extreme apologists deny that he 'eked out' his ballads. The problem is he left no field notes and precious few sources so the only way we can detect the extent of his interference is to study each ballad and his versions collectively intensely. Actually he wrote some really good ballads, though some of his extensions are atrocious.

In fact Bert comes from a long tradition that arguably had more influence on folk song than the oral tradition itself.

MacColl I think is one useful exception to this in that whatever he did earlier in rewriting Child Ballads etc., he did a damned good scholarly job with the 'Travellers' Songs' book.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:24 PM

Yes Meredith is rather harsh, but as has been seen here before in other threads, for some collectors integrity of the collecting process is non-negotiable and passions can be roused.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:34 PM

"all part of the creative process."
Agree Steve, but not part of the tradition (whoops!!!)
"the responsibilities of the collector to his informant"
In our experience, it doesn't really matter to them one way or another.
Every single one of them we questioned said (in so many words) that they considered themselves 'storytellers' whose stories came with tunes.
A lot of singers we recorded learned their songs from 'ballad sheets' bought at the horse or cattle fairs with no tunes indicated, so they put their own to them.
They had two distinct attitudes to the printed word - either to treat it as writ in stone or to use it as an aide-memoir and chop and change it as they saw fit.
Oddly, it was the non-literate Travellers who stressed the need for accuracy.
The common complaint of the ones we met was that "the young ones coming up don't seem to make sense of the stories - they don't mean nothing any more".
I think that, when putting the songs into print, either faithfulness to what you have been given is essential or, if you make changes because of memory lapses, you need to indicate that you have done so and explain.   
End justifying means is certainly not a major feature of Stalinism any more than many other political (or cultural) philosophies.
MacColl's 'Stalinism' was misleading in the sense that, when he was growing up the Soviet Union was believed to be to only workers state - some of my family shared his view - it was a generation thing.
He was, for a time, an admirer of Mao, but I once saw him go spare when the Chinese Government issued an edict on "the bourgeois nature of Stanivlaski's 'Method'".
MacColl's attitude to his work was a class rather than a political one, though he was happy to use it for political and social causes such as C.N.D., the Anti-Vietnam movement and Anti-Apartheid.
I honestly believe that Bert's approach was more or less the same, though he wan nowhere near as active.
John - would agree with most you say as long as creating songs in the folk idiom, especially on historical subjects, doesn't end up with writing pastiche - which is a tendency.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:54 PM

Re: "The end justifies the means."

What people generally mean when they say, "The end justifies the means" is that "A favorable outcome justifies *any* means," with the emphasis on "any."

Which is quite a but different, when you think about it.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:56 PM

You will be relieved to hear that it's finally beginning to sink in. Thanks Jim. Only last week the wife of my best friend (a Romany Gypsy) said to me that I could do what I wanted with her families songs.
So I said make a million quid then, she said except that! You are right it probably does not make too much difference to the informant.
when I recorded Bill House he was highly amused that I was in raptures over his version of 'One night as I lay on my bed' his favourite was 'Timothy Briggs the Barber'
As for Bert, well he's still a hero of mine, but a flawed one. I'll just have to get over it.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:01 PM

Lloyd, MacColl, Sharp, Baring Gould, Scott, Buchan, Motherwell, Jamieson, Percy, et al have all rightly come under scrutiny and criticism, but what can't be denied is that their contribution by far outweighs any flaw in their work.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:18 PM

Agreed

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:01 PM

Steve, you overlooked the Lomaxes.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:34 PM

Bert made a telling (?) remark to me years ago while giving him a lift back to the station after a gig he did in Brighton.

I was babbling on about how his book had come to my rescue while I was scrabbling to complete my much under-researched thesis on the transition from rural to industrial songs. The conclusions I had drawn were tendentious, not to say largely spurious but he just laughed and said that pulling the wool over people's eyes was OK if it had the desired effect.

And apropos the academic vs. singer elements in this thread, as he got out of the car he said, "From what I've heard tonight, you're a better singer than you are a scholar, so stick to what you do best."

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:28 PM

So Bert has the last word. Might take his advice.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 09:16 PM

Wow! I didn't know that there was still any energy left in Mudcat to discuss anything of importance. I was wrong. And on balance this may turn out to be one of our classic threads.

Thanks, Nick, for initiating it.

Charlie Ipcar