BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 11:35 PM

Take a look at the list of contributors to this thread,
a fair few dedicated 'serious musicians' amongst us, I'd say...

.. and I'm merely one of the least experienced musicians here, I've only been playing for 40 years.

Cliff Richard may be a complete unknown to most Americans.
He may be proven in court to be a very damaged human being.
But to many of us, he, or more specifically, his backing band,
is the reason we ever started playing in the first place.

Stilly River Sage, you are considered a very valuable member of mudcat community,
and can be very helpful in your areas of expertise.
For that we thank you.

However.........................

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 02:03 AM

please allow me to continue that pfr

However...........this thread is "below the line" where supposedly any subject can be discussed.

Amazingly, I find that the behaviour in the thread has been remarkably good.

Except for the intrusion of a mod who wishes to bring nationality into it.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:28 AM

I disagree, I find nothing to criticise in the moderators decision to delete posts on this thread., that is just my opinion, for what it is worth.
The moderators are volunteers, who are doing their best to be even handed and who are trying to prevent threads getting out of control and unpleasant, please give them a break.
this forum would be worse without moderators, moderating, if you dont like it dont visit the forum, and dont visit this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:49 AM

With all respect, you're way off on a tangent there soldier, but feel free to disagree with whatever you choose.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:06 AM

At heart an american site?

What exactly do you mean by that?

Do these sort of comments question your qualification to moderate?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:44 AM

I sing more like Cliff than Sam Larner. Youe SRS, we never had music stations like you did. Everything was on ration. And this young guy standing up and fronting a guitar band was the most exciting thing on our young horizon.

To say he was influential to Brits would be a massive understatement. He let us down getting involved with cheesy god botherers and - forces of repression like Mary Whitehouse.

But I think i can say with certainty a shudder is running through many English people. You see Cliff has always been schtum about his sexuality. People thought maybe it was because he was gay. but why remain schtum when so many others were open - Freddy, Elton, will Young etc.

We are really dreading - musicians or civilians - finding out that something more sinister was the reason for silence all these years....

watch this space, as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:55 AM

i agree, Al.
however nobody should be named until they are charged with a crime.
I am very suspicious of Cliff, it wouldnt surprise me if people much higher in the establishment than him like members of the royal family were even guilty, but it all has to come out.
but should not come out until someone has been found guilty. the media have a lot to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 09:56 AM

punfolkrocker brought up the nationalities, giovanni. I responded. And a site situated in the U.S. northeast owned by an American individual, yes, I'd say it's an American site. Not exclusive in coverage, but American.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 10:21 AM

oh, is it a blame game now ???

I reluctantly raised the point that this is one of the threads of particular interest and concern to UK members and guests.

I would not need to do this, if it was'nt for the fact that a dictatorial mod with clearly no sympathy of respect
for certain UK based issue discussions,
seems to be obsessed with aggressively intruding, interfering, and disrupting our flow of debate in such threads ???.

It would perhaps be better if there were a few more UK mods on the team.

I'd might even suggest myself for the position if I had more time to honour the commitment.

However, as I have a deep distrust for anyone who volunteers for positions of power and authority
over other individuals in a community.

No worries about that ever happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 10:40 AM

My two pence (aka, cents, or pesos in the actual Americas).

It always makes me uncomfortable (and puzzled) when a referee seems to become a quasi sports player, a judge acts more like a prosecuting attorney than a judge, and a policeman acts more like a judge than a policeman.

Moderators, like the rest of us are free to have their own opinions and express them about whatever they wish (after all, it is not our site) and, not being infallible, getting caught up in an issue.I also have respect for the mods here, as it is is likely a trying and thankless role.Thanks for your work.

But, it also makes me feel a bit uncomfortable when mods get directly into the thick of a discussion, versus participating and "being seen" as "the referee" - being above the many disputes (some that seem personal, others not as much). No one wins when this happens, especially the discussiin at hand.

I am not attempting to take sides, nor single anyone out for not acting appropriately. Just sharing my gut feelings on the evolution of this (below thetline, non musical) thread, that IMO, does not seem that much worse, or embarassing to Mudcat, than many others in thd past.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:20 AM

"It always makes me uncomfortable (and puzzled) when a referee seems to become a quasi sports player, a judge acts more like a prosecuting attorney than a judge, and a policeman acts more like a judge than a policeman. "

.. yeah.. even more so when such police & judges have the power to make statements and evidence disapear,
and control who can and can't speak to court, as and when it suits them.....

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:28 AM

""It's always the people that know you the least, that judge you the most. ""

Not who said this quote?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:41 AM

Briefly back to topic.

Innocent or not, Cliff Richard is certainly able to afford the 'best' defence lawyers money can buy.
Plus he has had plenty of head start to get his case together
if and when it ever goes to cout.

On a side note.
I recently spent a day in the company of a large number of devout British Evangelicals.
A branch of my family & their church congregation I don't see too often.

It'd be interesting to know how their informal discussions on Cliff are going right now...???
Especially one Pastor who has the honour of being the most obnoxious individual
I have encountered in quite a few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM

I would hope, punkfolkrocker, that my fellow evangelicals will be withholding judgments until the matter is [if ever] resolved. certainly I will be very disappointed if it is proved that he is lying and is guilty, but it wouldn't be my first disappointment !.
I am also sorry you have had negative experience of believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 12:27 PM

"I am also sorry you have had negative experience of believers."

Encountering someone who fervently and unquestioningly believes in something invisible, for which there's no evidence is always a negative experience for me, pete!

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:54 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:20 AM

"It always makes me uncomfortable (and puzzled) when a referee seems to become a quasi sports player, a judge acts more like a prosecuting attorney than a judge, and a policeman acts more like a judge than a policeman. "

.. yeah.. even more so when such police & judges have the power to make statements and evidence disapear,
and control who can and can't speak to court, as and when it suits them...."
The establishment call it justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:58 PM

still its not right to gob on people -even if you are a punk.

Cliff wouldn't gob on people - not even Americans. Cliff is a Christian. not to mention being an engaging showbiz personality.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:05 PM

Wtf is gob?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:17 PM

gob is spitting, cliff doesnt gob on people, cliff is an upright christian, he is also a white engaging showbiz personality, the same as jimmy saville.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:21 PM

olde Englishe custom at punk rock concerts

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:27 PM

olde Englishe custom at punk rock concerts

with punk gobbing you don't gob spit. you get a mouthful of beer and gob it on your fellow punks. its a sign of bonhomie and mutual jokey disrespect.

i thought you had you had punk rock in America.

reminds me a bit of Zappa - looking out at a tiny audience. 'This is where the twist revival starts ....Bristol is ready for the twist..'

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:05 PM

I skipped out on the punk culture way back. Never really had much interest in most of the music nor the internal social aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:05 PM

anyway, back on thread, the latest is theat Keith Vaz, the Chairman of th House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, confirms that the South Yorkshire Police have used the term "cover-up" in respect to the BBC, which the Committee takes a serious view of: the shadow of Leveson looms large. The hearing is on 2nd September.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:28 PM

yeah, remember now, hadn't thought about that for a while...

all that gobbing, safety pins, and sniffin glue.. what a bunch of bonehead bellends !!!

Me and my mates were 6th form college & youth theatre smart arses playing in a punk band
who took the piss out of brainless followers of tabloid inspired prefab punk culture trends & fashions...

I did have a johnny and a tampax pinned to my onstage T shirt.

Even bigger joke is, the arsewit punks thought we were serious and all rather cool...

..and we slipped in the odd punked up Shadows instrumentals at gigs...

Oh those heady days of 6th form girls on the pill, cider and magic mushrooms...

To think we all thought Cliff was a middle aged god bothering square..


If only anyone suspected what scary dark sordid things he might really have been getting up to..???

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Claire M
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 11:27 AM

Hiya……. & rather boring. I hope not too. Mind you I also hoped so w/ someone else, who used to light me up like a Belisha beacon. I was friggin' desperate for them not to be guilty……they were. Nearly brought me to tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 07:01 PM

Well, I was very glad when punk rock emerged. After all those years of British Glam Rock it was a breath of fresh air. As in all decades some bands were better than others but music did need the edgier sound of the punk influence for the kids at that time IMO in Britain anyway. Thank goodness audiences now appreciate all genres of music and the musicianship of bands from all decades etc. You only have to watch Glastonbury to see the variety of performers that top the bill there.

.... Back to Cliff Richard he had built up such an enigma about himself through the decades that someone somewhere would have been out there trying to find any mud to dig up. Maybe he brought it upon himself I don't know but I hope he is innocent of whatever it is supposed to be about because once tarnished with rumours like this it sticks whether innocent or not that is the problem. What about the people no longer with us or in the public eye, how is really known about them especially if they had been cunning enough to cover the tracks? It is good that victims are able to blow the whistle on abusers but it would be a travesty if someone else has got away with worse things. I don't know what all the details of what he is accused of only that the alleged victim was under 16. It seems to be more about homophobia to me. If there were more accusations against him then that would be different but one solitary accusation?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 01:49 AM

one solitary accusation? if I was on a jury I would like to know why he allegedly visited elm park guest house, a place where people convicted of peadophilia also visited at approximately the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 04:12 AM

why wait til you're on the jury - write to him and ask him. then you can tell us.

peadophilia - would that be garden, processed, or mushy..?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 04:22 AM

I've stayed in many hotels and guest houses over the years, some reputable, others less so. I'm fairly certain that, based on the law of averages, thieves, wife-beaters, murderers, rapists, paedophiles (note spelling, Dick), and a whole raft of other sundry undesirables, stayed at them at one time or another - possibly even at the same time I was there

That doesn't make me, or anyone else, any of those things.

A person's name written on a peice of paper doth not a paedophile make.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 04:23 AM

Fuckfuckfuck! PIECE!

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 04:39 AM

Backwoodsman, "peadophilia" was a joke - the clue is in the rest of the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 06:35 AM

Backwoodsmn, you may hve stayed in all sorts of places ,that is not relevant, if i was on a jury, I would like a explanation, from Sir Cliff as to why he was visiting, that is not unreasonable, now would you kindly take your insults [see your earlier post of some days ago],off to your feckin backwoods.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 06:45 AM

Cliff Richards has been a millionare since the early sixties - he is hardly likley to have frequented the Elms Guest house as a resident is he? So why was he there?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 06:56 AM

If I was on the jury, before asking WHY he was there, I would want to know whether he really WAS there.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM

Topsie - I understood Al's humour, but my comment was to Dick (Good Soldier Squeak) who mis-spelled paedophile initially.

Squeak - if you're insulted by someone pointing out a mis-spelling, I'd suggest you're far too sensitive. I've no recollection of insulting you earlier, if I did it was not intentional and again, I'd suggest you're far too sensitive.

So I'd recommend you take your foul temper back to your Irish bog and shove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 08:21 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM

"the shadows were technically ok but just fecking boring, start comparing them to hendrix or to jazz musicians or blues musicians they are soulless."

Well, a concertina-squeezer should know all about 'fecking boring' and 'soulless'. Describes a concertina perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

a stupid generalisation, backwoodsman, its not the instrument but the player. mean whileChris Beardshaw told BBC Radio 4's Gardeners' Question Time that flowers kept near to the musical highlights of Cliff Richard had all died.

"Those in the Cliff Richard house all died. Sabotage was suspected but we couldn't prove it," he said.

Black Sabbath music was played in a second greenhouse, while a third was kept silent.

The plants kept in the other two greenhouses survived the experiment, the study revealed.

"The ones with Black Sabbath - great big, thumping noise, rowdy music - they were the shortest, but they had the best flowers and the best resistance to pest and disease," the findings stated.

The experiment was undertaken by horticultural students to see whether music affects plants.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 09:07 AM

I did make that comment, Squeaky, and it was not intended to insult you, it was a comment which referred to my dislike of the concertina as an instrument, nothing else, which you chose to take offence to. Don't try to blame me for your own hang-ups.

The rest of your above post is, quite frankly, irrelevant to this issue.

Incidentally, I didn't notice you attacking the poster who did insult you recently when he/she called you 'pompous and illiterate', so why attack me?

Now grow up and get off my case.

BTW, I don't like Pukeleles either. And I don't give a damn if that 'offends' you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:32 AM

Years ago some preachers claimed that rock music killed plants.       Personally, I think the evidence was planted !

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:40 PM

What's all this about Cliff being rich so wouldn't stop in a guest house?

I've enough for a beer or two myself and woke up in a field the other week... (I never quite made it back to the tent I had put up lovingly earlier that day, and the party after the festival gig was a bit good...)

I note the police removed some evidence from his house. I hope it was just porn.. they'd better not have discovered his latest album...

(By the way, note it is South Yorkshire Police, who have a tricky time with child abuse themselves at present....)

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:53 PM

they removed evidence....?
evidence of what....?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:10 PM

You couldn't make it up, could you? One thousand four hundred complaints against the same circles, nothing, one complaint about a celebrity, SYP launch a paparazzia. These aren't cops, they're fame hounds. They most certainly have a very distorted vision of what abuse is, so I think it'll be a doddle to clear Cliff if they do charge him. The trouble is, that kind of argument is one of heading to the lowest quality of justice, which is about all that's left after this. What I would suggest is they start recruiting Police trainees, because with that number of complaints, it's clearly time to follow up on each and every officer who was involved in it, high and low: there won't be much of a force left afterwards as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:23 PM

Evidence is the BBC term although by coincidence, I can say with past authority that you can only remove evidence under code B of Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. So unless they feel it could be of interest to their enquiries it is theft.

So Occams Razor and BBC seem to agree, it is potential evidence. No comment from me beyond that as it could be evidence that clears him. Investigations in general should be to find truth.

I just couldn't resist the joke about his latest album.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:12 AM

BACKWOODSMAN The other comment was a personal attack, and has been removed, yours is just ill informed offensive[ to all concertina players and ridiculous, its as ridiculous as dismissing all guitars as boring

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 10:23 AM

I told you to get off my case.

My comment was about the concertina, which IMO is a boring instrument, not concertina players. Concertina players weren't mentioned, so it is not offensive to concertina players, except idiots who have themselves chosen to make it about concertina players.

Take your insecurities and hang-ups and look for another victim for your rudeness and aggressiveness. I don't roll over and die for anyone, especially notoriously argumentative players of boring instruments.

Got the message yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Musket
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM

Imagine if Cliff Richard played a concertina?

A fairly two dimensional instrument in my view, but has it's place in about half a dozen songs...

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 12:42 PM

I used to dream of playing two dimensions. However space is final frontier -I think George Washington said that.....

I say (chortle! chortle!) fancy all these yanks shooting each other....they must be a bit daft.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Silas
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 12:43 PM

I like concertinas. Played well they are brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Silas
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 12:44 PM

And, with apologies to Bill caddick et al - I don't like 12 string guitars

Subject: RE: BS: Cliff Richard - police investigation
From: Musket
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 01:31 PM

You know Al, John and Dick are two examples of why we don't have guns this side of the pond....