BS: Anyone defend US gun law?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:52 PM

The reason the US risks descent into anarchy is because of the NRA argument that weapons are needed to defend the civilian populace against the forces of order.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 04:42 AM

Some gun ownership is allowed here, for sport or pest control.
Not for self defence.
Guns can not be carried in public but can be kept at home with mandatory security of them.

The law here has changed in recent years to give home owners more rights to use force to defend their home and family.
We previously had cases like the man arrested for fighting against an intruder armed with a knife because the intruder died, stabbed with his own knife.
Inevitably someone will shoot an intruder and we will see how it is dealt with.

Musket mentioned the Martin case.(deleted)
He lived on a remote farm where police response would be too late, and had suffered numerous break ins.

He shot the boy, but outside in his grounds and in the back.
He left him to die and did not call for an ambulance.
He was convicted of murder, not manslaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM

The facts:

'Martin was convicted of murder, later reduced to manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility, and served three years in prison, having been denied parole'   Wikipedia

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Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:35 AM

You did not say he was convicted of anything Musket.
I was just emphasising that he was not just convicted of manslaughter.
It is not all about you Musket, and no-one is plotting against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM

Didn't you guys have some wacko who killed women with a crossbow. Griffen or something like that. Every country has its share of nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:20 AM

"Didn't you guys have some wacko who killed women with a crossbow. Griffen or something like that."

Never heard that one Dude. Evidence?

"Every country has its share of nuts"

They do, Dude. But the evidence suggests that yours has considerably more than its share:-

Top 5 Guns For The College-Bound

Options For Your Child's First Gun

Top 5 Guns To Scare Your Daughter's Boyfriend

What a bunch of absolute loonies.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:47 AM

Another post deleted. Its when Keith posts that mine get deleted..

Be buggered if I know what the link is...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:07 PM

Not comparing nut jobs.. Mine would win hands down for sure. There was a tv show on yesterday about the guy who used the crossbow in england. He wanted his 15min of fame.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:09 PM

You forgot Smith and Wesson. They make a pretty pink gun for the fashionable ladies

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:13 PM

His name is stephan Griffiths
The crossbow cannibal from Bradford. Key in cross bow cannibal in Google and read

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:20 PM

Don't forget your Harold Shipman
. Wasn't it 215 people murdered. I am beginning to think you guys a sitting ducks. At least we can fight back

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:39 PM

When I look at your list of killers I think per population you are as bad or worse than the US. I agree we need laws that make sense but I will keep my 2nd admendment thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 01:14 PM

The fact that you guys didn't know about your own serial killer that murdered women with a crossbow and ATE them makes me ponder the question. Does you goverment hide it in the closet? In America that would have run for a month on national news. We tend to put such things in a window to tell people there are crazies be careful. You seem to put them in the closet .. I also supect it is just our news media wanting the highest TV placement . However things may not be as you say in your country as I see it from what it reported. Sadly you cannot defend yourselves ... not good

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 01:27 PM

Yes, only bad people can go armed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 01:31 PM

But supposing I had been walking about with a gun in my pocket, just like you, Dan: what good, precisely, do you think that would have done the poor women that the crossbowman ate?

& why is it that your murder rates, esp those committed by shooting, are so much in excess of anyone else's [see posts passim, or google the statistics], if your sacred 2nd Amendment makes you all so safe?

Just asking.

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Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 01:52 PM

Mike I agree with you. Our states are really so messed up. Some states carry permits are way too easy and it alarms me also my friend. The only good about being able to carry is maybe you could stop a problem before it becomes one. I don't have all the answers for all the violence in the world. It is all insane I wish no one ever needed the things myself but I have t. Be real and know its not that way. Any way it is a good discussion. And the nra is nuts and the gun companies get richer. Nothing is good about any of it. Proper laws would help a lot if we had them

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 02:36 PM

I viewed the links that Backwoodsman posted. Or at least, as much of them as I could stomach. Their lighthearted approach to deadly weapons is a tad offputting. Or course, they are gun dealers.

The part that absolutely boggles my mind is that when they are talking about guns, how to shoot, how to conceal (they even have guns that fold in half in order to easily fit in a backpack), what you can do on a campus where gun carry is not allowed- don't they realize that all of their 'tips' are real handy for the criminal?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 02:40 PM

Heck, I may as well say it: It is like a rape manual for the good guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 03:31 PM

Dude, what does Harold Shipman have to do with this discussion? He wasn't a shooter, he was a doctor who murdered his geriatric, and often terminally ill, patients by injecting them with a lethal dose of medication which he had prescribed, and he then faked their death certificates. They trusted him, and they never knew what he did to them.

How, precisely, would those bang-bangs you get such a hard-on talking about have helped his victims?

And it really is false equivalence to try to use the fact that I forgot about one murderer as some ridiculous justification for your proposal that UK gun-death rates are greater than those of the U.S.

UK population - approx. 60 million
UK average gun-deaths - 50 per annum

US population - approx. 360 million
US average gun-deaths - approx. 11,000 per annum

Do the maths and report back with the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:30 PM

Yours are being reported Dude that's my point yo . Got more than your share of murders and you have no rights none but to take it in the ass at least here we can defend

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:33 PM

Not being reported. Shoot in a mall in my homestate and 40 ppeople will shoot back you will wait for the police and maybe 100 more will die

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:40 PM

If they are trained pass all the Fbi tests I would arm everyone that wants
That's thousands of more defacto cops out there then before. And no taxpayer dollars. Cause you see a cop is not magical wood elf
It's your neighbors who decided to do law enforcement. Same handgun training and license requirement in my state anyway. Now ifevery sstate had it great.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:48 PM

I don't fear honest and decent people with firearms. I fear for the honest decent people without them. Now you want to talk to me about real meaningful gun laws to keep them out of criminal hands you will have my full support

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:58 PM

Your stats are flawed yes you have less gun violence big deal. You have equal or more violent crime per population. Dead is dead from a gun or crossbow or anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 06:58 PM

"40 ppeople will shoot back"

Kind of like a circular firing squad?

When that congresswoman was shot, a 'good guy' with a gun came very close to firing at the wrong person.

I personally do not like the idea of 40.. or even 20... or even 5.. well-meaning bystanders trying to be heroes. Those bullets don't swerve when they approach the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:05 PM

"Shoot in a mall in my homestate and 40 ppeople will shoot back"- Whoa. Has that ever happened, olddude? And heaven forfend that I'm ever present at such a scene.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 10:28 PM

""When I look at your list of killers I think per population you are as bad or worse than the US. I agree we need laws that make sense but I will keep my 2nd admendment thanks""

Sorry to piss on your picnic Dan, but the real facts are as follows:

-snip- "In England and Wales, the murder rate has dropped by eight per cent to 1.04 per 100,000 population since 1995.
In Scotland, the rate has dropped by 19 per cent to 1.8 per 100,000 population and in Northern Ireland it has fallen by 61 per cent to 1.4, according to the data.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760631/Murder-rate-global-violence-hotspots-plunges-40-15-years-policing-improves.html#ixzz3Er0pBrHZ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

USA 2012
All homicides
·        Number of deaths: 16,238
·        Deaths per 100,000 population: 5.2
Firearm homicides
·        Number of deaths: 11,068
·        Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.6 " -snip-

From which, you will note that our total murders are two and a half times fewer than your gun murders, and nearly four times fewer than YOUR total.

By April 2013 the homicides in the US outnumbered the dead of 9/11, a rate of about 30 per day.

WE put that difference down to the fact that only trained firearms officers are allowed to use hand guns in the UK.

Watching US cop documentaries and seeing officers emptying their weapons with rapid fire and failing to score a hit on their target (not by any means a rare occurrence), we get some sense of the likely effect of John Doe being allowed to carry.

I wouldn't feel safe anywhere within range, even behind him, and if I were black, I wouldn't want to be in the same County.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:00 PM

Troubadour you I believe and I am wrong on my stats. I am happy to be wrong also. I think if loopholes in our laws were closed good people would not be so armed. Last week an 80 year old held two punks at gunpoint that were trying to Rob his house. They were armed. He held them till police came. They had a string of violence against the elderly. They picked the wrong guy

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:06 AM

I would add to valuable point in post just above, "WE put that difference down to the fact that only trained firearms officers are allowed to use hand guns in the UK", that these officers do not carry firearms all the time, but are only issued with them ad hoc to enable a specific situation to be dealt with where the senior officer in charge has determined that the use of firearms is the appropriate action to be taken. That senior officer will almost certainly be required to justify that decision to a subsequent committee of enquiry.

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Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:54 AM

Dan wonders about unreported gun crime?

Oh yes. Forgot to mention. When our police get it wrong there are usually high level resignations and fallout, rather than another day at the doughnut stand.

Our citizens are indeed armed. Armed with a single police protocol and coordination to try to keep us safe. It seems to work too, given the statistics Backwoodsman offered.

The idea of a national guard would be abhorrent. We only see military dudes when rivers break their banks or laying poppy wreaths.

There's a reassuring reason for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:23 AM

Does anyone else find it grimly amusingly ironic that this thread should be continuously running more or less adjacently to another one called "Another Black Man Shot By Cop"?

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Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 11:39 AM

It is grim....and a bit ironic... and not at all amusing.

At least camera technology caused the last stupid officer to be summarily fired for using his gun hastily and lying about what had happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:09 PM

What's even grimmer and more ironic is that the same keyboard warriors here are still defending the indefensible. And resorting to distortions with regard to the UK, perhaps even to the point of telling barefaced lies, in an attempt to deflect from the truth of the situation in the US. And that's not the least bit amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:39 PM

Well, in summary, there's no doubt the US is in a mess. The gun lobby continues to demonstrate its unreliability as a source of authority by twisting and distorting every fact it can get its paws on, by bringing in every red herring it can, and by using every dirty tactic in the book. Which tells a tale in itself, I guess: their spokesmen here don't want to change, they don't feel the burn. Which is sad for those who are getting burned by their refusal to act. Not just them, of course, but their like: responsibility doesn't divide, though, it multiplies, because each and every one of them could be the one who turns the vote. It's not enough to say you're against something, you've got to act on that, and they're not: otherwise you're not being adult. America's a young country, and it's youth shows: but given a call to grow up, it's not got the commitment to do so. Sorry, but that's the way it is: they risk going down in history with other young nations as a cause of bigger problems, as a result. I don't know what it'll be, but the US is big trouble in the making.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 01:39 PM

I have wracked my brain trying to come up with an analogy that would help UKers understand the situation in which we in the US find ourselves.

How about tobacco? What if the reigning powers dictated that tobacco in all its uses will be as of a certain date banned forthwith, that tobacco in the fields will be razed to the ground, that there will be no legal sales, that anyone caught smoking or chewing or snuffing will be prosecuted, and that anyone caught importing tobacco in any form will be haled into court, the rationale being that there is no earthly use for tobacco but ample evidence of its harmful properties?

It will, of course, require investigators, snoops if you will, who will be mandated by law to report any infringement of the new policy, i.e. if the snoop smells burning tobacco or has other reason to deduce that someone is breaking the law to immediately report the facts to the Enforcement Council, under penalty of their own arrest.

Keep in mind that there are many nooks and crannies and remote areas that would be hard to police, that some people would consider it an issue of freedom, an infringement of individual rights. A person who had smoked for 40 or 25 or 10 years might well expostulate that s/he is not about to stop smoking just because somebody in some office dictated they must.

What about tobacco?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 01:51 PM

Tobacco is a very good analogy indeed, Ebbie. What has been amazing is the success that antismoking legislation, legal restrictions of rights to smoke in workplaces, restaurants, pubs, shops, &c, has had on the public perceptions as to what is acceptable. So that, just a personal example, I have had guests who, despite my saying, as I felt hospitality demanded, that they could smoke in my home while my guests, they have nevertheless insisted on going out into the garden to do so.

So -- in that instance, the legislation came first, and the public acceptance of its pejorative implications for the activity under consideration followed.

Could not some similar effect perhaps result if your government were to LEAD with some sort of meaningful legislation, which public opinion might then follow?

As has happened with smoking -- over here, at least.

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Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:25 PM

Mikes right, we do understand, Ebbie, and we understand it won't - can't - happen overnight. But change has to start somewhere, and a good start would be simply to outlaw automatics and other high-power weapons. Give those who have them an amnesty in which to surrender them, pay them compo for the monetary value of the weapons they've surrendered, then throw the book at the ones who don't comply with the ban. Once that's in place, and given time for the dust to settle, other measures could be put in place to further tighten up on who can possess guns and who can't.

Currently, all your governments are doing is weeping crocodile tears and wringing their hands every time something bad happens.

We had a school shooting-spree here - remember Dunblane where the guy used legally-owned firearms to shoot a large number of children and teachers in their local school. Within a very short time, and despite the protestations of the gun-loonies, the government banned the types of weapons used in that shooting. Anyone caught with those types of weapons now will get jail-time, and they've disappeared almost completely.

It's called 'Growing Some Balls'. Maybe its what your leaders need to do? They have to start somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:55 PM

I agree with Backwoodsman that the heavy automatic weapons should be banned, but the problem is complicated by the States' different regulations.

There would seem to be a Constitutional conflict, and the Supreme Court could uphold the States rights to decide, if the Federal Congress ever passes a bill outlawing them.

Would the change make any difference? Gun-involved homicides are not carried out with heavy weapons; only the so-called "militia" types would be affected. Members of these groups are a threat, at least in my mind, but gun-related homicide statistics would be little affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:14 PM

OK, start with handguns, but FOR FUCK'S SAKE, START SOME-FUCKING-WHERE!!!!

If there's a constitutional problem which the Supreme Court can solve, do what the gun-crackpots at the NRA do - ORGANISE AND LOBBY, drive it home, make the buggers take notice. If all you ever do is whine about how difficult it all is, nothing will change.

I'm constantly amazed that the minority bullshit brigade are allowed by the majority normal people to have it all their own way.

NOTHING is impossible. It just takes the will and the organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:17 PM

And I originally said start with autos etc. because I thought that would be less sensational, and less difficult, than starting with handguns. But in truth, handguns are where you need to start.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:16 PM

Quinnipiac University poll, June, 2014

Do you support or oppose stricter gun control laws in the United States? (1446 queried)
Support 50%
Oppose 47%

New York Times poll, 2014
Support-
More strict- 54&
Keep as they are- 36%
Less strict- 9%
A sharp division between Republican and Democrat voters. Independents close to overall average.

Gallup poll
More strict- 43%
Keep as they are- 43%
Less strict- 11%

28% of Americans favor a handgun ban.
The South and West are split from the North and East; much less support for change.

Not promising for a start.

General agreement that the 2nd Amendment would have to be repealed, which seems unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:56 PM

Looks like the US is fucked, if those numbers are to be believed.
Goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 09:41 PM

http://www.sassnet.com/clubs/Clubs_list.php?state=European

https://www.ipsc.org/ipsc/regions.php

http://www.issf-sports.org/

http://www.paralympic.org/shooting

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sports/2014-09/25/c_133672153.htm

http://www.britishshooting.org.uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:56 AM

OK. Banning guns doesn't stop crime.

Looking at the statistics it stops many deaths though.

You can have federal laws dictating green credentials of new car designs in order to make The USA as a whole safer yet...

Look on the bright side. You get less vigilante crime too. The thought of someone over here admitting they once threatened someone with a gun... Yet we read on this thread of people proud of the fucking fact!

‼️‼️‼️

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:37 AM

If you, with your fists, stopped someone who was threatening someone else with a knife, would you be pleased with yourself? That is probably a fairer assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:52 AM

Fists were made for kneading bread, winning arguments and in Germany, bedroom games.

Guns were made to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:09 PM

Ebbie, over here it's a crime to threaten anyone with a gun, no matter what the circumstances. A gun is an offensive weapon, and can not be used to threaten anyone. In such circumstances both the knife-weirder and the gun-waver would be committing the same offence, and receive the same sentence.That's the point.

FWIW, I have disarmed someone making threats with a knife, also young men with baseball bats on more than one occasion. On each occasion I didn't feel at all pleased with myself, I was disappointed that I'd allowed the situation to escalate to such a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:12 PM

Knife-weirder?? WTF??
I hate bloody iPad predictive text! Knife-weilder!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:22 PM

It really is very frustrating and difficult in discussions like this, where those with the paranoid, fearful mindset of the Americans are completely incapable of understanding, as we do, that it's perfectly possible to live safe, peaceful lives in a society where guns have no place. We live that life, and it really does exist.

The only reason you believe you **need** guns is because you've got the bloody things coming out of your ears. Trust me, you'd be amazed if you spent time here, that criminals don't carry weapons, there aren't 'mad-dog killers' around every corner, and 'the bad guys' are mostly on TV.

It's not a good idea to believe everything you read in the newspapers, or hear on Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:24 PM

And just to catch that one before the gun fetishists try using it against us, we ALSO treat knives the same way these days in the UK, and there's the legal trend that any dispute may head in the same direction. Once discussion turns negative to the point where there is no common ground to agree on, the most logical conclusion is to recognise the fact and walk away. There is never any justification for violence between adults, and it always takes two to make an argument. Remove one - yourself - and the causus belli disappears. The other side has as much a right to an opinion as you do, and you as much right to yours as they do to theirs: live and let live.