BS: Anyone defend US gun law?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 09:59 AM

But heavy don't know how they carried it in Africa or india big game hunting...

Ah, but they didn't carry it - them days they had a "native gun bearer" to lug it around for 'em until time to take the shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:54 AM

First gun I fired was a Lee Enfield #4, and I was just 14. After that, nothing fazes me - including being taught shotgun handling at Holland and Holland, who put me straight onto snipe. But that is in the past.

Dunblane was NOT simply a referendum, Bill, simply communal expression led by the Press that enough was enough, forcing MPs to act. You can do it, you must do it, JFDI.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:48 AM

Bill -- Notoriously the US claims to be the "can-do" country.

But, because of its Constitution and its fractured government -- split between the Constitution and States' rights -- it would seem according to you to be the "can't-do" country after all.

What a pity. Really nothing you can do about it. No way of going back to ▢·1, and trying redrafting the whole shebang from top to bottom so that the will of what you claim to be the majority might at last prevail over that of the NRA?

Like, maybe, a committee of both Houses appointed to redraft the Constitution to reflect the will of the people: or is the thing so set in stone that one Amendment -- to start all over again, could never happen?

No way? None at all?

Well, then, I say again --

WHAT A PITY!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:28 AM

But Bill. The federal government can ban new car sales on the basis of not hitting safety and emission standards, using public health as the impetus.

Anyway, when the rest of the world finds the interpretation of right to bear arms hilarious, it just shows how facile politics can become.

From the country with the reputation for preaching to others of the joys of democracy and holding to account.

Guns are the main barrier to credibility methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 10:02 PM

Wish rap was still on I am sure he probably shot one. But heavy don't know how they carried it in Africa or india big game hunting

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 09:59 PM

Yeah Greg but the H+H the British had with the double barrel was amazing. My doc buddy does own one they are really expensive if you find one in any condition. I want one to restore

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 08:45 PM

from yesterday, about Dunblane:

" Within a very short time, and despite the protestations of the gun-loonies, the government banned the types of weapons used in that shooting. "

I answered a post about Dunblane earlier.... but one-more-time.
It IS a fine idea to ban such weapons here... and ammunition and more.
The issue is you in the UK have a very different way to DO banning!!!! You can have a simple national referendum and vote in Parliament and it's done! We don't. There are various reasons for this, some of which were not a serious problem until gradually, in the 1960s thru now, they suddenly were.
It's like a lobster in a pot of water with the temp slowly rising... it becomes evident that there is a problem, but even if he realizes he is in water that is too hot, he can't reach the rim to get out! There are people with big sticks pushing him back. THEY are in control. THEY are the NRA, the local legislators, and those who are damned well gonna have lobster for supper.

Laws about tobacco are only tangentially relevant. We have severely limited many tobacco issues, but that took ages because of lobbyists and addictions. There is nothing that is quite like firearms, as it 'seems' to be protected by the Constitution.

Getting around this means fighting political, economic, psychological, cultural, emotional and judicial issues... all at the same time.

We are not just sitting on our hands and acting like wimps, as some would like to suggest. We are in a pot of hot water, trying to dodge sticks and reach the edge. Can't even bite the fingers holding the sticks very often.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 07:06 PM

Too much monkey business for me to be involved in, Dan. I'd just as soon beat myself over the head with a three-pound hammer.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 06:53 PM

I shot one Greg, it will pull the filling out of your teeth damn it kicked. If you hold it wrong you can fracture a collar bone. It's like the old 10 gage goose guns old timers had.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:40 PM

I hate bloody iPad predictive text!

When communication is all thumbs, what can you expect? Another triumph of technology in the digital age.

Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:20 PM

. "Law follows changes in social attitudes, it doesn't lead them".
.,,.,.

Profoundly disagree, Jack. In a law-abiding society, that's exactly what it does. See my post 0151 pm yesterday on the effects of our non-smoking laws on public acceptance of the necessity for restriction on tobacco use, and its social effects. The law has changed smoking from something that everybody did [in my youth it was not exactly rude not to smoke, but certainly regarded as a little bit eccentric] to something for which those who can't kick it are perpetually a bit defiantly apologetic.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 04:35 PM

As I recall, Teddy Roosevelt was given a Holland and Holland double rifle in .500-450 calibre by British admirers for his 1909 African safari. Also, if I recall correctly from "African Game Trails" - it gave him a nosebleed every time he fired it.

Now, that's dedication.....

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 04:34 PM

"knife-weirder?? WTF??
I hate bloody iPad predictive text! Knife-weilder!" Backwoodsman

lol Reminds me of one time when a friend and I were assuring each other that we were excellent proof readers and very observant when an error popped up. We wrote back and forth three times and each time, both of us made errors or typos. We finally gave up. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 04:01 PM

What I always wanted was one of those double barrel rifles your african explorers used. They were amazing. Last one I saw was 21k

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 02:26 PM

yes backwoodsman I am, don't forget that either.
so then why worry if your neighbor owns a shotgun ... silly I think

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 02:23 PM

What I like here is that Q's internet provider now has a record of Q searching to see where you can get away with bestiality...

"Take the ribbon from your fur" 🎵🎶

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 01:57 PM

See Jack Camppin post-
Bestiality (zoophilia) is not illegal in UK, but images cannot be transmitted. It is illegal in Netherlands, France, Switzerland.

Fourteen U. S. states have no specific laws against bestiality, 36 do either felony, or misdemeanor).
(Wikipedia and BBC News)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 01:35 PM

For fuck's sake Dude, how many times do we need to tell you - the fucking criminals DON'T go around armed because (1) they don't need a gun because they know they won't be faced by a cop with a gun or an angry house-owner with a gun, and (2) carrying an offensive weapon (gun, knife, crossbow, sword, screwdriver, baseball bat, etc. etc.) in the commission of a crime puts that crime into the category of 'aggravated' and if they get caught, they will get a double-sentence! I've said all this at least twice - Don't you read anything we tell you?

You don't get it because you've got a brainwashed, paranoid, fucked-up mindset - exactly what you get when society treats owning a gun as 'normal'.

We have laws here that ACTUALLY WORK, not just for guns, but for any kind of offensive weapons - strict control on the sale of, strict and regular checks on gun-owners, very severe punishments for those who break the law with regard to the carrying of offensive weapons.

I set you a simple maths exercise earlier, which I noticed you didn't respond to - maybe you did it and didn't like what it told you, or maybe your gun-addled brain just couldn't do it. Either way, the proof is incontestable, except by an idiot.

I think this thread's gone as far as it can. As ol' Musket says, "You can't educate pork".

Time to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 01:22 PM

And what do you do with a Martial Arts Master. If he or she is attacked and severly damages someone of kills them defending themselves, are they wrong.   I am not being a prick I am asking the question because I do want to know. How do you handle them, must they register themselves as a weapon ... don't get it

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 01:19 PM

I can kind of understand handguns. They require an extensive amount of training but why would it bother you folks if your neighbor owned a shotgun and was a kind decent person. I don't get it , what threat to others is that except for the criminal who wants to rob and kill him. I don't get it. Good people owning guns ... I feel a lot safer. Your laws apply only to the good people as the bad people don't give a crap

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:57 PM

Yes but does your criminals follow your restrictive laws
I think most criminals here love laws that good people follow on guns. It gives them piece of mind when they want to rob or kill. The laws protect the criminals as I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:44 PM

The law isn't going to change in the foreseeable future AND IT DOESN'T MATTER.

In much of the US, bestiality is legal. That doesn't mean you see people shagging dogs in every Walmart carpark. Law follows changes in social attitudes, it doesn't lead them. The US just needs to get in line with the rest of the world culturally and lump the gun-owning weirdos along with the puppy-fuckers: we may not want you in jail but you certainly aren't getting left alone with our kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:36 PM

Just curious - no hidden agenda - request for info only: what ARE the regulations concerning knives - pocket, pen & otherwise- in the UK these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:24 PM

And just to catch that one before the gun fetishists try using it against us, we ALSO treat knives the same way these days in the UK, and there's the legal trend that any dispute may head in the same direction. Once discussion turns negative to the point where there is no common ground to agree on, the most logical conclusion is to recognise the fact and walk away. There is never any justification for violence between adults, and it always takes two to make an argument. Remove one - yourself - and the causus belli disappears. The other side has as much a right to an opinion as you do, and you as much right to yours as they do to theirs: live and let live.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:22 PM

It really is very frustrating and difficult in discussions like this, where those with the paranoid, fearful mindset of the Americans are completely incapable of understanding, as we do, that it's perfectly possible to live safe, peaceful lives in a society where guns have no place. We live that life, and it really does exist.

The only reason you believe you **need** guns is because you've got the bloody things coming out of your ears. Trust me, you'd be amazed if you spent time here, that criminals don't carry weapons, there aren't 'mad-dog killers' around every corner, and 'the bad guys' are mostly on TV.

It's not a good idea to believe everything you read in the newspapers, or hear on Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:12 PM

Knife-weirder?? WTF??
I hate bloody iPad predictive text! Knife-weilder!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 12:09 PM

Ebbie, over here it's a crime to threaten anyone with a gun, no matter what the circumstances. A gun is an offensive weapon, and can not be used to threaten anyone. In such circumstances both the knife-weirder and the gun-waver would be committing the same offence, and receive the same sentence.That's the point.

FWIW, I have disarmed someone making threats with a knife, also young men with baseball bats on more than one occasion. On each occasion I didn't feel at all pleased with myself, I was disappointed that I'd allowed the situation to escalate to such a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:52 AM

Fists were made for kneading bread, winning arguments and in Germany, bedroom games.

Guns were made to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:37 AM

If you, with your fists, stopped someone who was threatening someone else with a knife, would you be pleased with yourself? That is probably a fairer assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:56 AM

OK. Banning guns doesn't stop crime.

Looking at the statistics it stops many deaths though.

You can have federal laws dictating green credentials of new car designs in order to make The USA as a whole safer yet...

Look on the bright side. You get less vigilante crime too. The thought of someone over here admitting they once threatened someone with a gun... Yet we read on this thread of people proud of the fucking fact!

‼️‼️‼️

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 09:41 PM

http://www.sassnet.com/clubs/Clubs_list.php?state=European

https://www.ipsc.org/ipsc/regions.php

http://www.issf-sports.org/

http://www.paralympic.org/shooting

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sports/2014-09/25/c_133672153.htm

http://www.britishshooting.org.uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:56 PM

Looks like the US is fucked, if those numbers are to be believed.
Goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:16 PM

Quinnipiac University poll, June, 2014

Do you support or oppose stricter gun control laws in the United States? (1446 queried)
Support 50%
Oppose 47%

New York Times poll, 2014
Support-
More strict- 54&
Keep as they are- 36%
Less strict- 9%
A sharp division between Republican and Democrat voters. Independents close to overall average.

Gallup poll
More strict- 43%
Keep as they are- 43%
Less strict- 11%

28% of Americans favor a handgun ban.
The South and West are split from the North and East; much less support for change.

Not promising for a start.

General agreement that the 2nd Amendment would have to be repealed, which seems unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:17 PM

And I originally said start with autos etc. because I thought that would be less sensational, and less difficult, than starting with handguns. But in truth, handguns are where you need to start.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:14 PM

OK, start with handguns, but FOR FUCK'S SAKE, START SOME-FUCKING-WHERE!!!!

If there's a constitutional problem which the Supreme Court can solve, do what the gun-crackpots at the NRA do - ORGANISE AND LOBBY, drive it home, make the buggers take notice. If all you ever do is whine about how difficult it all is, nothing will change.

I'm constantly amazed that the minority bullshit brigade are allowed by the majority normal people to have it all their own way.

NOTHING is impossible. It just takes the will and the organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:55 PM

I agree with Backwoodsman that the heavy automatic weapons should be banned, but the problem is complicated by the States' different regulations.

There would seem to be a Constitutional conflict, and the Supreme Court could uphold the States rights to decide, if the Federal Congress ever passes a bill outlawing them.

Would the change make any difference? Gun-involved homicides are not carried out with heavy weapons; only the so-called "militia" types would be affected. Members of these groups are a threat, at least in my mind, but gun-related homicide statistics would be little affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:25 PM

Mikes right, we do understand, Ebbie, and we understand it won't - can't - happen overnight. But change has to start somewhere, and a good start would be simply to outlaw automatics and other high-power weapons. Give those who have them an amnesty in which to surrender them, pay them compo for the monetary value of the weapons they've surrendered, then throw the book at the ones who don't comply with the ban. Once that's in place, and given time for the dust to settle, other measures could be put in place to further tighten up on who can possess guns and who can't.

Currently, all your governments are doing is weeping crocodile tears and wringing their hands every time something bad happens.

We had a school shooting-spree here - remember Dunblane where the guy used legally-owned firearms to shoot a large number of children and teachers in their local school. Within a very short time, and despite the protestations of the gun-loonies, the government banned the types of weapons used in that shooting. Anyone caught with those types of weapons now will get jail-time, and they've disappeared almost completely.

It's called 'Growing Some Balls'. Maybe its what your leaders need to do? They have to start somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 01:51 PM

Tobacco is a very good analogy indeed, Ebbie. What has been amazing is the success that antismoking legislation, legal restrictions of rights to smoke in workplaces, restaurants, pubs, shops, &c, has had on the public perceptions as to what is acceptable. So that, just a personal example, I have had guests who, despite my saying, as I felt hospitality demanded, that they could smoke in my home while my guests, they have nevertheless insisted on going out into the garden to do so.

So -- in that instance, the legislation came first, and the public acceptance of its pejorative implications for the activity under consideration followed.

Could not some similar effect perhaps result if your government were to LEAD with some sort of meaningful legislation, which public opinion might then follow?

As has happened with smoking -- over here, at least.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 01:39 PM

I have wracked my brain trying to come up with an analogy that would help UKers understand the situation in which we in the US find ourselves.

How about tobacco? What if the reigning powers dictated that tobacco in all its uses will be as of a certain date banned forthwith, that tobacco in the fields will be razed to the ground, that there will be no legal sales, that anyone caught smoking or chewing or snuffing will be prosecuted, and that anyone caught importing tobacco in any form will be haled into court, the rationale being that there is no earthly use for tobacco but ample evidence of its harmful properties?

It will, of course, require investigators, snoops if you will, who will be mandated by law to report any infringement of the new policy, i.e. if the snoop smells burning tobacco or has other reason to deduce that someone is breaking the law to immediately report the facts to the Enforcement Council, under penalty of their own arrest.

Keep in mind that there are many nooks and crannies and remote areas that would be hard to police, that some people would consider it an issue of freedom, an infringement of individual rights. A person who had smoked for 40 or 25 or 10 years might well expostulate that s/he is not about to stop smoking just because somebody in some office dictated they must.

What about tobacco?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:39 PM

Well, in summary, there's no doubt the US is in a mess. The gun lobby continues to demonstrate its unreliability as a source of authority by twisting and distorting every fact it can get its paws on, by bringing in every red herring it can, and by using every dirty tactic in the book. Which tells a tale in itself, I guess: their spokesmen here don't want to change, they don't feel the burn. Which is sad for those who are getting burned by their refusal to act. Not just them, of course, but their like: responsibility doesn't divide, though, it multiplies, because each and every one of them could be the one who turns the vote. It's not enough to say you're against something, you've got to act on that, and they're not: otherwise you're not being adult. America's a young country, and it's youth shows: but given a call to grow up, it's not got the commitment to do so. Sorry, but that's the way it is: they risk going down in history with other young nations as a cause of bigger problems, as a result. I don't know what it'll be, but the US is big trouble in the making.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:09 PM

What's even grimmer and more ironic is that the same keyboard warriors here are still defending the indefensible. And resorting to distortions with regard to the UK, perhaps even to the point of telling barefaced lies, in an attempt to deflect from the truth of the situation in the US. And that's not the least bit amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 11:39 AM

It is grim....and a bit ironic... and not at all amusing.

At least camera technology caused the last stupid officer to be summarily fired for using his gun hastily and lying about what had happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:23 AM

Does anyone else find it grimly amusingly ironic that this thread should be continuously running more or less adjacently to another one called "Another Black Man Shot By Cop"?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:54 AM

Dan wonders about unreported gun crime?

Oh yes. Forgot to mention. When our police get it wrong there are usually high level resignations and fallout, rather than another day at the doughnut stand.

Our citizens are indeed armed. Armed with a single police protocol and coordination to try to keep us safe. It seems to work too, given the statistics Backwoodsman offered.

The idea of a national guard would be abhorrent. We only see military dudes when rivers break their banks or laying poppy wreaths.

There's a reassuring reason for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:06 AM

I would add to valuable point in post just above, "WE put that difference down to the fact that only trained firearms officers are allowed to use hand guns in the UK", that these officers do not carry firearms all the time, but are only issued with them ad hoc to enable a specific situation to be dealt with where the senior officer in charge has determined that the use of firearms is the appropriate action to be taken. That senior officer will almost certainly be required to justify that decision to a subsequent committee of enquiry.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 11:00 PM

Troubadour you I believe and I am wrong on my stats. I am happy to be wrong also. I think if loopholes in our laws were closed good people would not be so armed. Last week an 80 year old held two punks at gunpoint that were trying to Rob his house. They were armed. He held them till police came. They had a string of violence against the elderly. They picked the wrong guy

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 10:28 PM

""When I look at your list of killers I think per population you are as bad or worse than the US. I agree we need laws that make sense but I will keep my 2nd admendment thanks""

Sorry to piss on your picnic Dan, but the real facts are as follows:

-snip- "In England and Wales, the murder rate has dropped by eight per cent to 1.04 per 100,000 population since 1995.
In Scotland, the rate has dropped by 19 per cent to 1.8 per 100,000 population and in Northern Ireland it has fallen by 61 per cent to 1.4, according to the data.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760631/Murder-rate-global-violence-hotspots-plunges-40-15-years-policing-improves.html#ixzz3Er0pBrHZ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

USA 2012
All homicides
·        Number of deaths: 16,238
·        Deaths per 100,000 population: 5.2
Firearm homicides
·        Number of deaths: 11,068
·        Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.6 " -snip-

From which, you will note that our total murders are two and a half times fewer than your gun murders, and nearly four times fewer than YOUR total.

By April 2013 the homicides in the US outnumbered the dead of 9/11, a rate of about 30 per day.

WE put that difference down to the fact that only trained firearms officers are allowed to use hand guns in the UK.

Watching US cop documentaries and seeing officers emptying their weapons with rapid fire and failing to score a hit on their target (not by any means a rare occurrence), we get some sense of the likely effect of John Doe being allowed to carry.

I wouldn't feel safe anywhere within range, even behind him, and if I were black, I wouldn't want to be in the same County.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:05 PM

"Shoot in a mall in my homestate and 40 ppeople will shoot back"- Whoa. Has that ever happened, olddude? And heaven forfend that I'm ever present at such a scene.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 06:58 PM

"40 ppeople will shoot back"

Kind of like a circular firing squad?

When that congresswoman was shot, a 'good guy' with a gun came very close to firing at the wrong person.

I personally do not like the idea of 40.. or even 20... or even 5.. well-meaning bystanders trying to be heroes. Those bullets don't swerve when they approach the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:58 PM

Your stats are flawed yes you have less gun violence big deal. You have equal or more violent crime per population. Dead is dead from a gun or crossbow or anything else.