What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 10:56 AM

"Folk is half a term. Traditional, contemporary, traditional rock, easy chuffing listening if you want!"

Folk Disco seems to have been a bit of a non starter.... shame really...

Shirley and Dolly Collins or The Silly Sisters LP produced by Nile Rodgers - I'd have bought that !!!

Has Grace Jones gone folk yet..????

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 10:59 AM

Al, you should immediately register that with PRS

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 12:43 PM

I want my 50% if he does.. We will buy Jim a pint from it, honest!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 03:11 AM

"Folk Disco seems to have been a bit of a non starter.... shame really..."
Matter of opinion whether its a shame but I'm not surprised it's gone - neither had anything to offer to the other.
Regarding the urban myth that 'the folk' (after whom folksong got its name), this, from an interview with American singer Jean Richie, who collected from the older generation of singers in Ireland in the 1950s
It's from our note to a Clare version of Barbara Allen.
Jim Carroll
   
"Bronson gives around two hundred versions, and ethnomusicologist Charles Seeger edited an LP record containing thirty American recordings. The enduring popularity of the ballad among country singers and a revealing insight into how it was viewed by them, was amply illustrated in an interview with American traditional singer Jean Ritchie who spoke about her work collecting folk songs in Ireland, Scotland and England in the early nineteen fifties.
She says;
"I used the song Barbara Allen as a collecting tool because everybody knew it. When I would ask people to sing me some of their old songs they would sometimes sing 'Does Your Mother Come From Ireland', or something about shamrocks.   But if I asked if they knew 'Barbara Allen', immediately they knew exactly what kind of song I was talking about and they would bring out beautiful old things that matched mine; and were variants of the songs that I knew in Kentucky.   It was like coming home"."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 04:10 AM

barbara allen, pepys described as a scotch song, but what did he know?scotch song is as accurate than horse song.
good point however, jim, they all understood what was being sought, why not call them barbara allen type songs instead of folk songs.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 04:21 AM

Quite possible, of course, in fairness to old Sam Pepys, that Mrs Knipp, on the occasion Pepys described of 2 Jan 1666, sang a Scottish version and announced it as a "Scotch song".

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 04:49 AM

According to Wiki, she was probably one of Pepys' mistresses.'When they wrote notes to each other, Pepys signed himself "Dapper Dickey," while Knep [aka Knipp] was "Barbary Allen" (that popular song was an item in her musical repertory)'.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:54 AM

> But if I asked if they knew 'Barbara Allen', immediately they knew exactly what kind of song I was talking about.

Because the words "Barbara Allen" have a clearly identifiable reference for everyone: you know the song or you don't. And you have an opinion about what songs are "like it."

The word "folk," however, has no such clear reference.

It is useful - for specialists - to prescribe one. But prescribed meanings that carry no consequences for misuse are impossible to enforce.

One consequence, in this case, might be ridicule from professional
folklorists. But as we've seen, not even they agree on what they want to talk about when they want to talk about folksongs.

A very small group, on the other hand, like the folksong societies, can certainly enforce their specific usage on members - but the general public will continue to ignore them, just as it ignores the microbiologists.

The technical definitions of "virus" and "folksong" (to the extent that the latter has one) are just too obscure and complex for the average uninformed and uninterested person to care about.

And everyone around them is using the words just as they do.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 08:38 AM

lets go down to the Barbara Allen club, sounds a bit darby and joan, OR The Barbara Ann club?,that sounds like a beach boy tribute night.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 08:53 AM

makes me want to re-write Barbara Allen with a jolly singaround chorus and a happy ending.

if that's how we recognise the buggers, we've got them cornered!

folksongs only hope is to remain elusive. confound all these academics and professionally serious types - escape down the pub lads!

really its like an overgrown garden - the horticulturists come along with their horrid secateurs and cut off the bits they don't approve of. but thank god they haven't a selective weed killer for everything!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 09:22 AM

"The word "folk," however, has no such clear reference."
Yest it does, in fact it articulates in an analytically way what the older generations of songs grew up with.
Not every singer knew Barbara Allen otherwise we would have thousands rather than the couple of hundred versions we have of it.
They recognised it as a type rather than an individual song - this happened to us over and over again while collecting.
Mary Delaney, a blind Travelling woman, gave us somewhere over a hundred songs - she probably knew twice that many.
She referred to them as "My daddy's songs" that his how she defined them.
Her father gave us less than half-a-dozen.
Walter Pardon referred to his hundred or so folk songs as 'folk songs' another definition
Kerry Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy, called them 'Fireside Songs' and set them apart from his pop and C.& W. songs and his Victorian Parlour ballads - another definition.
Some singers referred to them as 'Come All Ye's', or 'Sean Nós', or 'local', or 'family'..... all definitions which distinguished them from other types.
It seems the modern folkie revival is the only group who have problems getting their heads around this practice - an example of education not necessarily bringing wisdom perhaps.
As far a the 'old Scotch ballad, Barbara Allen' - there is a certain smugness in dismissing Pepys statement out-of-hand.
Despite the fact that he made it his reference to it nearly four centuries ago, we are really no nearer to knowing its origins than he was.
There is no reason on earth why the song shouldn't have originated in Scotland in spite of the highly speculative 'Villiers' theory.
The song was certainly popular there, as it was throughout the English speaking world.
Would be fascinated if the knockers had a better idea of its origins than the rest of us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 09:54 AM

Jim Carroll
Sorry Bryan - not particularly well articulated on my part - the two clubs I mentioned were 'The Singers Club' and 'Court Sessions' both of which I helped to run and sang at (for a short time in the case of the Singers)
What I should have said was, I knew that the type of music I was going to hear corresponded to what I thought folk song sounded like, neither were 'purist' clubs and both encouraged the making and performing of new songs.

Well, that's knocked the wind out of my sails. You seem to have conceded everything I've been saying.

It is the fact that this is no longer the case in many clubs I find objectionable.

But you hardly ever go to folk clubs. What grounds do you have for saying that?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 11:51 AM

Those academics who have done the groundwork tell us that any song referred to as 'Scotch' by the London theatre goers in the 17thc meant anything that was sung in any dialect from further north than Watford, and that included anything written in London that used such a dialect.

I would guess this description applied to the 'Sir John Graeme' variant in vague theatrical Scots, although the Reading/Scarlet version has earlier provenance in print. I would say to me it's pretty obvious that one is a pastiche of the other but I wouldn't like to guess which came first. In the 18thc there was a lot of Scottifying of earlier London pieces, just as at other times there was a lot of anglicising of Scots material.

Whatever, 'Barbara Allen' has been in constant popular print for nearly 4 centuries. This just adds a perspective to the fact that it is the most collected ballad from oral tradition.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 01:27 PM

"As far a the 'old Scotch ballad, Barbara Allen' - there is a certain smugness in dismissing Pepys statement out-of-hand"
I find it rather smug for you to have to keep referring back to traditional singers that you have collected from for the definition of a folk song, it is not just smug but self important, what you are in fact doing is making your definition exclusive, and excluding all the folk who sang but did not sing songs of the barbara allen type, for example you are excluding songs sung on football terraces, which under the precious 1954 definition become folk songs.
it is perfectly reasonable for Jean Ritchie to have made this statement to guide her in collecting certain songs, it is not reasonable for anyone to then suggest this is the only definition of a folk song.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 01:30 PM

"It is the fact that this is no longer the case in many clubs I find objectionable.

But you hardly ever go to folk clubs. What grounds do you have for saying that?" jim has no grounds at all,he is talking horse shit aka horsemusic, it is not convincing for anyone to pontificate about folk clubs if they rarely visit them.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:11 PM

"But you hardly ever go to folk clubs. What grounds do you have for saying that?"
I stopped going to clubs around 14 years ago - by which time the rot had well and truly set in
I maintained my contact with people whose opinions I respect - many of whom I've worked with in the past who confirm what I believe - some have actually packed up altogether and you might be surprised at some who have said they are hanging in by their fingernails.
The dozen or so clubs I have visited since we moved have been further confirmation of my impression.   
Arguments such as these are enough to convince me that many of the clubs bear no relation to the music I came to know as 'folk'.
If nothing else, the inanities that pour forth from one professional 'folksinger' on this forum convince me that some club performances should carry a health warning
I really have said this on numerous occasions - you don't accept it - tough!.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:31 PM

"If nothing else, the inanities that pour forth from one professional 'folksinger' on this forum convince me that some club performances should carry a health warning"
another inane comment from jim carroll, what does anything anyone has to say on this forum have anything to do with folk club performance, it is ridiculous as me making a judgement on jim carrolls' folk song collecting based on his statements on this forum.
Jim, you are in a hole stop digging.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:34 PM

pack it in the pair of you...

you both obviously need more Glam Rock and Disco in your lives....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 03:10 PM

By the way Bryan
At he risk of nipping the start of a beautiful friendship in the bud
"You seem to have conceded everything I've been saying"
I have conceded nothing.
I have never at any time promoted a'folk-only' club.
Since day one of my involvement I have sung and have enjoyed newly composed songs written using folk forms.
When I joined the Critics group I was plunged into songwriting workshops run bt Ewan and Peggy - tried my hand at sever of my own, but didn't have what it takes.
I admit, I was taken anback when I first heard Ewan express the opinion that, "without new songs the revival would be little more than a museum" - but it didn't take me too long to change my mind at that one.
My objection has been from the beginning and remains, that club after club I stopped going to no longer presented anything resembling folk song.
It was summed up perfectly for me one time when we had booked Walter Pardon for The Singers and Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area to see if she couldn't get him a couple more to make the trip worth his while.
On spec, she rang one and asked did they want to book him.
The nice lady on the other end said she had never heard of him and cou[ld Pat explain what Walter did.
Pat explained who he was, told her of his experience at clubs and the half dozen solo albums he had made.
"Sorry", came the reply, "we only book folk singers".
Nuff sed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 03:46 PM

"My objection has been from the beginning and remains, that club after club I stopped going to no longer presented anything resembling folk song.
It was summed up perfectly for me one time when we had booked Walter Pardon for The Singers and Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area to see if she couldn't get him a couple more to make the trip worth his while.
On spec, she rang one and asked did they want to book him.
The nice lady on the other end said she had never heard of him and cou[ld Pat explain what Walter did.
Pat explained who he was, told her of his experience at clubs and the half dozen solo albums he had made.
"Sorry", came the reply, "we only book folk singers".
Nuff sed.
Jim Carroll"
jim you are generalising from one particular incident.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:12 PM

Jim. If a rot set in 14 years ago, how come the rest of us enjoy putting our coats on and ignoring Knobenders or MasterChef?

People enjoy folk music. So sad that you don't. Especially after all the work you put into it. But you know what ? Those you dismiss are those taking it to the next generations.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:29 PM

so someone wouldn't give Walter Pardon a gig. someone hadn't heard of him. didn't like the cut of his gib....

welcome to the world of entertainment. as a savvy old drummer once said to me - if you can't handle rejection. you can't handle this job. it eighty per cent of the job.

traddies seem to get a fairly easy ride to me considering their uncompromising views on style and presentation.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:49 PM

Al. Stop it.

I'll end up having to buy you a pint when visiting relatives in Dorset if you are not careful.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Carl Ellis (VT Yank)
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 10:41 PM

Well yes, it was an interesting thread. I have learned from it that if I ever feel an inclination to use the f**k word in connection with anything I intend to sing I had better go wash out my own mouth with soap, and on returning mention merely that I have a kinda song-tune thingie I'd like to try. But don't let me spoil the fun you're all having.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 10:58 PM

... as an educated and cultured Englishman who enjoys using the F word from morning till bedtime...

I am bemused,
why would anyone make up an internet name just to post once on mudcat to moan about the word 'Fuck' ???

Think about it Carl Ellis (VT Yank), you may be a bit odd....???

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:36 AM

People enjoy folk music. So sad that you don't. Especially after all the work you put into it. But you know what ? Those you dismiss are those taking it to the next generations.

Not really. I used to enjoy going to my local folk club - I was a regular performer there for several years, doing cover versions, my own songs & the odd traditional number. I went off it in a big way when three things happened:

a) I heard a lot of traditional songs
b) I realised I liked them
c) I realised that traditional songs were the one thing you very rarely heard at that folk club

I go back every so often & I can confirm that the club's thriving. But you're about as likely to hear a traditional song - any traditional song - as a song by Donovan. Traditional songs aren't going to get to the next generation that way.

In my case there's a happy ending - I've found other venues where you can hear traditional songs half the time or even more. But giving up on folk clubs is totally understandable to me, and it's certainly got nothing to do with giving up on folk music.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:23 AM

as there seems to be a lot of controversy about what is folksong, perhaps it would be best if you gave us a list of the songs you consider to be a folksong and we we will promise to put one or two in if we see you in the audience.

whether you like it or not, the tradition is changing. my instrumental influences were the blues project guys - van ronk, koerner etc; stefan grossman; derek brimstone; paul downes; wizz jones; mctell. stylistically if not substantially -everything I do is folk -it not rock or blues or jazz -its folk.

I can't change the march of history for you, but I promise to try and accommodate you.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:54 AM

Folk clubs play folk music.

It does what it says on the tin.

There is a nudge towards a style that echoes traditional music, and many of us get huge enjoyment out of putting our stamp on traditional songs. I mentioned in either this or the other nonsense thread on the same subject that Imagined Village took this to new heights in my opinion. All that got was Jim Carroll dismissing Martin Carthy, so not sure where to take this discussion really.

"It was the first of May, a righteous holiday"

Go for it Ben!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:06 AM

> whether you like it or not, the tradition is changing. my instrumental influences were the blues project guys - van ronk, koerner etc; stefan grossman; derek brimstone; paul downes; wizz jones; mctell. stylistically if not substantially -everything I do is folk -it not rock or blues or jazz -its folk.

People who want to think of their favorite music as "folk," regardless, won't be influenced by any discussion here. They'll call it "folk," and their friends will agree.

Life is full of ambiguities.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:50 AM

It isn't what they are calling folk. The issue is when they say what isn't folk....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:16 AM

"the tradition is changing. my instrumental influences were the blues project guys"
You are talking to peoples tastes changing - not the music which has been documented as folk.
I can like all the people you mention and still like the music I know to be as folk - in that way I can use the term to cater for all my different aspects of interest of the genre.
"They'll call it "folk," and their friends will agree."
Fine - they can call it 'butty music' if they like but it anin't a butty if it hasn't got butter on it.
You wanted a definition - you have '54 and yo have the Oxford Dictionary one
So far you've come up with "people will call it whatever they wish"
Doesn't mean a damn thing and it helps to confuse rather than to bring people to a specified type of music and help people enjoy and understand it for what it is and what it signifies.
I've described what has happened here in Ireland by deciding what you mean and going for it - I am aware what has happened to folk music in Britain
I'll stick with what I know, thanks all the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM

> "people will call it whatever they wish" Doesn't mean a damn thing.

In fact it means plenty. It means that current scholars disagree with each other about what they mean by "folksong," just as some scholars   disagree with the musicians.

You too, Jim, can use the word in ways that seem most appropriate, and most of the time I'll be inclined to agree with you.

But it's pointless to expect and demand that others, from John and Jane Zilch to the academics we've mentioned, will suddenly reverse course and take a more discriminating view. They don't want to. They don't feel a need to (just the opposite, really). They won't.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:35 AM

On another thread, we are discussing Anais Mitchell and her rather wonderful versions of a few Child ballads. Out of curiosity, I looked at my iTunes listing for the album and it said Country and Western.....

Quite.

As Apple have rather litigious lawyers, I'd rather not support Jim if its all the same to you!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:36 AM

Jim Carroll
I have conceded nothing.
I have never at any time promoted a'folk-only' club.

You have, for a long time, said that folk clubs should do "what it says on the tin" modified, in this thread, to "exactly what it said on the label". In this thread, you have said "Walk into a folk club and you your probably be told "Piss off, we don't need a definition". When challenged, you produced a list of names that you considered acceptable outside the 1954 definition but denied that it was subjective. Then you turned round and said "I knew that the type of music I was going to hear corresponded to what I thought folk song sounded like". That would work pretty well as an illustration of the meaning of subjective. "What Jim Carroll thinks folk song sounds like" is very unlikely to be written on the tin or label of any folk club. OK, if your name is on the list of organisers, it's there by implication. Equally, if Musket's name (whatever it is) was on the list that would imply that it was whatever he thought folk song sounded like. Your voice carries no more authority than anyone else's.

You say "the two clubs I mentioned were 'The Singers Club' and 'Court Sessions' both of which I helped to run" confirming what said I said the other day "It was on your watch that things went tits up not mine.

Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area
she rang one and asked did they want to book him
Nuff sed.

No, nothing said at all. I seem to remember you saying a while ago that, after Walter had decided that he wasn't going to perform any more, you got pestered by organisers to try and persuade him to do a booking at their clubs. Likewise, over twenty years ago. On your watch. Nothing to do with what is happening now.
I bet Al Whittle has been turned down far more times than Walter Pardon.

I maintained my contact with people whose opinions I respect

Circular argument Jim. You only respect people who share your opinions.

I stopped going to clubs around 14 years ago - by which time the rot had well and truly set in

I have been going to folk clubs for forty years, quite often more than once a week. I'll be going to the one I help organise in a few hours time. On our publicity it says -

Our interest is mainly (but not exclusively) in British traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition.

We have booked numerous people within that range over the years including several members of the Critics Group. I presume these people get sufficient bookings elsewhere to make it worthwhile them continuing.

I really have said this on numerous occasions - you don't accept it - tough!.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM

> contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition

Not to dispute your tastes, but "derived from the tradition" is a lot like Hollywood's "based on actual events," which often implies minimal resemblance to what really happened.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:49 AM

In any case, the re-enacted events, like the newly written songs, are still imitations - good, bad, or indifferent.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:51 AM

Stop dragging me into it snail.. You are confusing me on the basis I largely agree with you.

Here's a good one. I love using a carbon fibre acoustic guitar, (Rainsong) when playing acoustic and especially folk clubs. A few months ago, someone said in an email to the folk club organiser after I had been to their club that carbon fibre guitars have no place in folk clubs and only traditional wooden guitars should be tolerated!

He forwarded it to me. What he must have thought of "Senile Skifflers" a song taking the piss out of folk club musicians, written by my old partner in crime Mitch, I shudder to think! It got a good laugh at the time, which is the main thing I suppose.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:20 AM

Not to dispute your tastes, but "derived from the tradition" is a lot like Hollywood's "based on actual events," which often implies minimal resemblance to what really happened.

We don't know much about folk music but we know what we like. (Actually, some of us know quite a lot about folk music.)

In any case, the re-enacted events, like the newly written songs, are still imitations - good, bad, or indifferent.

Um? Er? Yes. And your point is?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:24 AM

Musket
Stop dragging me into it snail.. You are confusing me on the basis I largely agree with you.

That's TheSnail to you Musketman. Anyway, what's the problem? I was citing you as someone whose opinion was just as valid as Jim's.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:56 AM

That's The Right Reverend Prof Sir Musket VD&Bar to you...

The problem is, I largely agree with your previous post. That is unnerving and causing me to question myself....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:58 AM

I suppose the alternative would be supporting Jim's cosy restrained definition of something with no definable boundaries..




Ok. You win.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:26 PM

The Right Reverend Prof Sir Musket VD&Bar

Shouldn't that be Emeritus now that you've given up your visitor's chair?

That is unnerving and causing me to question myself....

Excellent. Now, if we can just get Jim to do the same...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:46 PM

"Excellent. Now, if we can just get Jim to do the same..."
Perhaps some straightforward responses rather than snideswipes Bryan
We can all be right by not answering arguments
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:11 PM

Ok try again. Lord Musket of the tap room.

Will that do you?

Any references to reality were purely accidental. Insisting on The in your title is somewhat pretentious for that matter.

We booked a caller for a ceilidh last year for a family do. The band was a scratch band of mates but we needed a caller. Her card gave her title as (her name) M.E.F.D.S.S.

Wonderful.

To be fair, she was rather good, but unnerved the band by stating the tempo she needed by number.....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:32 PM

Jim Carroll
Perhaps some straightforward responses rather than snideswipes Bryan
We can all be right by not answering arguments

Indeed so, Jim. Bearing that in mind, perhaps you would take the trouble to read and respond to my post of 06 Sep 14 - 10:36 AM.
While you are at it, you could take a look at my post of 02 Sep 14 - 01:13 PM which you also ignored.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM

"In fact it means plenty. It means that current scholars disagree with each other about what they mean by "folksong,"
How do you get from "people" to "scholars Lighter - or is that another term you have redefined?
Bryan
"exactly what it said on the label" - the clubs I referred to when i used that term were The Singers Club and Court sessions - neither of which use 'folk' in their title, but presented folk and folk based songs - that is what I meant and to suggest otherwise is totally disingenuous.
I have never advocated a purist club, I have never supported such a narrow idea, I think I only ever experienced one some time in the sixties.
You know damn well I am talking about clubs who adopt the title folk as a flag of convenience and provide nothing of the sort
But if you wish to score by claiming this as a concession, please feel free to do so - always happy to help the needy.
""It was on your watch that things went tits up not mine."
Not true - The Singers Club ceased after I was no longer anything other than a member due to other pressures - Court Sessins continued until lat year - about fourteen years after we moved to Ireland.
"I have been going to folk clubs for forty years, quite often more than once a week. "
Well done you -- about the same time I was involved - and your point it....?
"Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area
she rang one and asked did they want to book him
Nuff sed."
Didn't you miss a bit out?
What I actually wrote was:
"Pat rang around several clubs in the South East area to see if she couldn't get him a couple more to make the trip worth his while.
On spec, she rang one and asked did they want to book him.
The nice lady on the other end said she had never heard of him and cou[ld Pat explain what Walter did.
Pat explained who he was, told her of his experience at clubs and the half dozen solo albums he had made.
"Sorry", came the reply, "we only book folk singers".
Nuff sed."

At no time have I used the term pestered to my recollection ``- we continued to get some calls after he retired from the clubs but not that many.
Pat wasn't Walter's agent - she got him extra bookings when he visited us - if he wanted them.
The few calls we continued to get were from those regulars who had booked him before
The example I gave was of one that is being argued here - a folk club that didn't know its folk arse from its elbow.
"You only respect people who share your opinions."
I assume that its the 'Royal You' - I certainly respect many people I disagree with - I just don't agree with them, that's all.
What exactly is your point here Bryan - that the folk revival is booming and I'm making it all up - that people who have no interest in folk music yet call their clubs 'folk' are figments of my imagination.
Are all the people who take part in these forums and say their experiences the same as mine lying.
Are those who agree with that conclusion yet defend the situation by saying nobody wants to listen to the old stuff anymore because its had its day figments of my imagination?
Can British folk song both in performance or as a research topic look forward to a glowing future - or any future at all when those of our generation snuff it (without hopping on a train to Lewes, that is?).
There was little sign of that being the case fourteen years ago - even less now.
There certainly wan't much sign of it when I spent a week in London earlier this year - but happy to five it another go.
Off to Oxford next month to do some research work on two radio programmes on Ewan - any suggestions of what to look out for (general question - haven't got time to head for Sussex)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM

"tap room"!? Come off it. Never get you out of the VIP lounge these days.

TheSnail isn't my title, it's my identity.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 03:18 PM

>Um? Er? Yes. And your point is?

That wax fruit is not the same as real fruit, that a singer-songwriter "folksong" isn't much like a 1954-def "folksong," and that those who still observe the semantic distinction are not the dimwits you seem to think they are.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 03:30 PM

Jim, the folklore encyclopedias I quoted earlier are written by and for scholars. If they can't or won't agree, how can you expect musicians to agree?

One can "correct" the usage of a few people who accept one's authority, but one can't "correct" the usage of millions who couldn't care less.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:23 PM

Yes, but the VIP lounge is applicable because I am, in the words of Billy Connoly, windswept and interesting.

Any road, if I am to gain topics for folk songs, it does pay to cohort with the proletariat occasionally.