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BS: A question re Islamic teaching

MGM·Lion 26 Aug 14 - 01:12 AM
DMcG 26 Aug 14 - 01:51 AM
George Papavgeris 26 Aug 14 - 02:01 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 26 Aug 14 - 02:05 AM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 14 - 02:09 AM
GUEST,Stim 26 Aug 14 - 02:20 AM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 14 - 02:21 AM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 14 - 02:33 AM
GUEST,DMcG 26 Aug 14 - 02:46 AM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 14 - 03:15 AM
Musket 26 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM
DMcG 26 Aug 14 - 03:36 AM
Doug Chadwick 26 Aug 14 - 04:46 AM
Jack Campin 26 Aug 14 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 26 Aug 14 - 08:03 AM
Musket 26 Aug 14 - 08:34 AM
Howard Jones 26 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,# 26 Aug 14 - 10:18 AM
Jack Campin 26 Aug 14 - 10:35 AM
Mrrzy 26 Aug 14 - 10:49 AM
Uncle_DaveO 26 Aug 14 - 10:54 AM
Musket 26 Aug 14 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 26 Aug 14 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Stim 27 Aug 14 - 11:32 PM
Bill D 28 Aug 14 - 12:10 AM
Joe Offer 28 Aug 14 - 01:12 AM
George Papavgeris 28 Aug 14 - 01:15 AM
Musket 28 Aug 14 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,LynnH 28 Aug 14 - 04:32 AM
bubblyrat 28 Aug 14 - 05:52 AM
Musket 28 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 28 Aug 14 - 06:10 AM
Musket 28 Aug 14 - 01:03 PM
Bill D 28 Aug 14 - 01:08 PM
Musket 28 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM
Joe Offer 28 Aug 14 - 03:56 PM
Bill D 28 Aug 14 - 04:36 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Aug 14 - 05:01 PM
Musket 28 Aug 14 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Stim 28 Aug 14 - 08:12 PM
Joe Offer 28 Aug 14 - 08:56 PM
LadyJean 29 Aug 14 - 12:28 AM
Musket 29 Aug 14 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 29 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 29 Aug 14 - 08:00 PM
GUEST 29 Aug 14 - 08:35 PM

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Subject: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 01:12 AM

"Muslims revere Jesus, but believe that their later prophet was "greater", said a post on the "Caliphate" thread.

So I have always understood. I was taught in a series of excellent comparative religion lessons given to the VIth form by my headmaster back in the late 40s that, though to a Muslim Mohammed is the one True Prophet, he himself named others, among them Moses & Jesus, who should be regarded as predecessors of his to whom much of the Truth was revealed, so that they should be revered as minor prophets by his own followers. I have never been able to reconcile this with the obvious and ever-manifest hostility of Islam towards Judaism & Christianity.

Have I got this right? If so, can anyone explain this apparent anomaly in traditional Islamic thinking?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 01:51 AM

That is what I was taught as well, but a don't see the contradiction you do. Christians and Jews do not regard Mohammad as a higher authority than Jesus or Moses. That' sort of disagreement is all it takes for any group to become the enemy of any other group


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:01 AM

MGM, I believe the reason for this apparent anomaly, as you rightly call it, lies in the fact that we are no longer comparing "pure" religions, i.e. based simply on the original tenets of each. Very quickly religions absorb cultural, ethnic, local etc characteristics. This happens either intentionally (dressing up an external belief or practice as "religious" in order to give it weight or to help subjugate others or to ratify a war or exclusion or a pogrom etc), or simply organically, by virtue of the location and culture where the religion is "growing".

So after not too many decades you end up with variants of the religion - see the variants of Christianity for example: Catholicism and Orthodoxy split apart because of geopolitical considerations, dressed up as different interpretations of the religion; Protestantism and Catholicism similarly; North African Kopts on the other hand were separated (I think) mainly for reasons of local culture and distance from the rest. In Judaism you have the Sephardic (Spanish/Middle Eastern) and Ashkenazic (German/Eastern European) Jews. In Islam you have the Shias, the Sunnis, the Sufis and so on.

The tragic aspect of all this is that followers of each of the sects I mentioned (and the many I have missed out) each believe that they are the true believers, that only they have the absolute truth. And any depictions and icons etc linked to religions are culturally driven. It is no accident that the Christian "God" is traditionally shown as white and male, which is pathetic to say the least, when one considers that all major religions were founded by dark-skinned people!

So the differences and anomalies we observe today owe much to the cultural etc "impurities" acquired by religions, and are also influenced by our own personal cultural/religious prism, no matter how hard we might try to be objective. You yourself, in your opening post referred to "the obvious and ever-manifest hostility of Islam towards Judaism & Christianity", unwittingly ignoring the fact that the hostility goes both ways, and indeed the hostility between Shias and Sunnis (for example) is stronger than the one between them and Jews.

A good comparative religion course will try to shed the extraneous influences and compare the basic tenets of religions - and will find many similarities between them, unsurprisingly. It sounds like you have benefited from one such course. But it will not explain the hostility engendered - to do that one has to take the extraneous "impurities" into consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:05 AM

Well, historically, Muslims have been very tolerant to other faiths.
When the Moors ruled most of Spain, Christians were free to follow their faith, but not so the other way around when Christians were in charge.
Also, it was the Western Crusaders who travelled all the way to the Middle-East to pick a fight with the Muslims.

At the moment, Islam has the mutters running riot but in a few years who is not to say that it won't be Christian mutters who are causing havoc!

Religion is the real enemy!

Any group that is guided by ancient texts that can be interpreted in a myrad of different ways is very dangerous!


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:09 AM

Hi, Michael-

It's my understanding that the animosity of Islam toward Christianity and Judaism, is a phenomenon that arose during the last 200 years - fundamentalism wasn't predominant within Islam until sometime in the 19th century. This was a time when Islamic nations were heavily affected by European imperialism - could there be a connection?

There were healthy Jewish and Christian communities in Islamic countries until just recently. And part of that, I think, is because Islam sees the nation of Israel as a threat to the stability of the Middle East.

And of course, fundamentalism has reared its angry head in both Judaism and Christianity within the last two centuries, especially within the last fifty years.

Personally, I don't see fundamentalism as the true nature of religion. Religion, to me, is philosophical and thoughtful. Fundamentalism is ideological, rigid, and anti-philosophical.

Once upon a time, Islam fostered education and learning, amazing advances in science and mathematics, inspiring poetry and literature, and remarkable art and architecture. All that has been suppressed by recent ideologues. In the recent (or ongoing) war in Mali, fundamentalists threatened the ancient treasures of their own Islamic culture, seeing it as profane - that threat now exists all over the Islamic world.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:20 AM

Well, first of all, you have to establish that there is an "ever-manifest hostility of Islam towards Judaism and Christianity". Not sure you can.

There are certainly some people and their affiliated governments who self-identify as Muslims who have conflicts with some people and their affiliated governments who self-identify as Christians. Both groups justify their actions in the name of their respective religions, but I can't think of any warring parties who didn't claim to be acting in the name of their respective religions.

Over the years, I have done some light reading and made polite inquiries into the higher values that several of the religions put forth, and have been struck by a certain inconsistency
between the practitioners behavior and the values that they claim to hold.

I am at loss to explain this. Maybe I am just missing something.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:21 AM

Tunesmith says: Any group that is guided by ancient texts that can be interpreted in a myrad of different ways is very dangerous!

I think just the opposite - I think the ancient tests must be interpreted in myriad ways. The texts are intended to make people think, to ponder; not to adhere to a rigid ideology. It's when an authority imposes a single interpretation on a sacred text and prohibits diversity, that trouble begins.

I don't agree with Tunesmith that "religion is the real enemy." It's political power taking control over religion - that's the real enemy.

It wasn't Christianity that expelled the Moors and Jews from Spain - it was the political power of Ferdinand and Isabella, who used and perverted religion as a political tool. Almost everything that is used for political purposes, ends up perverted.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:33 AM

George Papavgeris says: It is no accident that the Christian "God" is traditionally shown as white and male, which is pathetic to say the least, when one considers that all major religions were founded by dark-skinned people!

George, do a Google image search for Ethiopian Icon and Coptic Icon.

I think you'll find some surprises. I don't really see a problem in people seeing deities as sharing their own race - that's what they can relate to. I do see a problem if black or brown or yellow people see God as white. That's a big problem.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:46 AM

Maybe Joe, but I found it strangely uncomfortable that there of the four evangelists in (modern) stained glass windows in my last church had blue eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 03:15 AM

Hi, DMcG - I think if we strive for "accuracy" in religion, we're missing the point. If we strive to depict the evangelists accurately as first-century middle-eastern people (whatever they looked like back then), we create an expectation of factual accuracy that simply does not (and should not) exist. I think we're far better off having people of European ancestry portraying their holy people as European, knowing full well that they weren't Think of all the artistic depictions of biblical scenes with people in medieval costumes in front of medieval buildings. Sure, it's anachronistic and all shades of other inaccuracy, but that inaccuracy keeps us away from the temptation to "factualize" what is and must be myth. When people start viewing sacred myth as incontrovertible fact, that's when we get into trouble.
Myth is meant to capture the imagination of humankind - that doesn't happen when myth is forced into a false conception of accuracy and historicity.
I'm sorry, but I relate to European saints far better than I relate to Filipino ones. And I think that's OK (as long as I don't force European saints upon the Filipinos). To a great extent, my religion is expressed and understood through my culture, because that's who I am and what I understand.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM

I suppose that making an observation such as in the op and getting a huge brush with which to paint millions of people who identify themselves with the teaching of Mohammed is naive to say the least and provocative to say the most accurate.

It's a bit like quoting from pete of the seven stars and asking Joe Offer to justify it.

As Harold Wilson said of The Labour Party, "It's a broad church."

The blue eyed saints and rather European portraits of Adam, Jesus etc, just serve to show that unlike present day fundamentalists, Christians through the ages have been comfortable with their teaching at the parable rather than literal level.

Ditto Muslims. The various crusades and inquisitions meant the Age of Enlightenment and western scientific discovery weren't aware that the groundwork already taken place in Arabian and other civilisations had to he relearned. Back then, we were the Luddite superstitious terrorists and followers of Islam the rational thinkers...


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 03:36 AM

I agree, joe. I don't think my concern is about accuracy as such. It more that images give messages for good or ill and so we need to be careful. In the world as it is today, that an African sees a black Christ bothers me not at all, but an Englishman who sees Christ a a good chap out of Eton (except for those few troublesome days at the end) but the rest of the time well groomed with nicely laundered clothes speaking to other good fellows, we'll, that's not the image I'd promote.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 04:46 AM

........(as long as I don't force European saints upon the Filipinos).

Therein lies the problems of both politics and religion.

Crusaders/jihadists, evangelists, missionaries, fundamentalists of all kinds want to impress their "truths" on other people and their societies. The same goes for fascists, communists, imperialists, western democracies and fundamentalist-led governments. They believe in a one-size-fits-all world and that they have the answer.


DC


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 05:26 AM

Christians don't own Jesus. The Muslim position (for all varieties of Islam I know of) is that the Christians have misunderstood who Jesus was and what he was doing. That doesn't necessarily imply hostility, and historically it usually hasn't. It just implies disagreement.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 08:03 AM

Looking to ancient texts for guidance is crazy! Madness!

The Catholics look at the ancient texts and decide that contraceptives are a sin in the eyes of God! And, in doing so, help the spread of aids!

Jehovah Witnesses look at ancient texts and decide that blood transfusions are a sin against God!

Muslims can look at the Koran and decide women who commit adultery must be stones to death!

It's all madness!

No, what is right or wrong must to hammered out in Parliaments using logical debate which can be scrutinised by the populace.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 08:34 AM

The snag is, the politicians in Parliament need the votes and God botherers wont vote for irrelevance any more than turkeys vote for Xmas...

It is a stain on society how many politicians pretend to believe in God to get the votes.

Still, better than The USA where not claiming to believe in god is a bar to office in a society that claims to be secular, (on a document that gun wearing idiots use to claim their right to look stupid.)


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM

By the Muslim calendar this is the year 1435. I think it's interesting to compare Islam today with Christianity at an equivalent period. At that time Europe was largely made up of what were effectively near-theocracies where the Church exercised a huge amount of secular power and influence, and where dissent and heresy was ruthlessly suppressed with extreme violence. The Middle East now seems to be experiencing something rather similar. Is this coincidence, or is it a phase of development which all religions pass through?

Of course what we are really talking about is how Muslim and Christian societies and cultures use their religion to regulate and control, rather than the religions themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 10:18 AM

"Of course what we are really talking about is how Muslim and Christian societies and cultures use their religion to regulate and control, rather than the religions themselves."

Bingo!


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 10:35 AM

Islam has never been homogeneous since the generation after Muhammad. This has not generally led to much sectarian strife, except when geopolitical factors have intervened.

The present wave of fanaticism is primarily due to one man: Ronald Reagan. It all dates back to him funding the Afghan mujahideen as a Cold War strategy. Build an army of totally amoral thugs brutal enough to bring down the Soviet Union and it isn't going to go away or grow a spirit of tolerance any more than the Freikorps did after WW1.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 10:49 AM

ALl the monotheists are "people of the book" to islam, no? And I have to agree with the above posting about Reagan. He is also the one who decided to restaff the Beirut embassy with civilians and drop the barricades to kind of declare peace, which made it so *possible* for the embassy to be bombed in 1983, and again, with some of the same civilians who'd survived the 1st bombing, in 1984. If we hadn't made it so easy they might not have been so emboldened.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 10:54 AM

George Papavgeris told us:

It is no accident that the Christian "God" is traditionally shown as white and male, which is pathetic to say the least, when one considers that all major religions were founded by dark-skinned people!


A few comments on that:

The "and male" has nothing to do with the asserted dark-skinned founders, so probably shouldn't appear in the subject sentence. And if by "the Christian 'God'" you mean Jesus, he WAS male, was he not? How else would you portray him?

And "all major religions were founded by dark-skinned people"? Jesus and Paul were both semites, and nothing I've read in the Bible suggests that they were particularly dark-skinned. And those are the two Great Figures in the founding of Christianity. The same comments on skin color apply, as far as I can tell, to Mary Magdalen, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, and the other apostles, along with Jesus's brother James, who was the leader of that section of early Christianity which saw Christianity's mission as properly intended and to be limited to Jews.

But the major growth of Christianity, largely created by Paul, occurred with little loss of time with the expansion to the Gentiles, who were very largely Hellenic populations. Yes, there's the Copts. The Coptic church is one of the oldest Christian movements, but they are the few remnants of the original, "old" Egyptian population, not the Arab and other later "invaders" of Egypt, mainly dark-skinned. I don't know for sure, but I don't believe the Copts are/were particularly dark skinned.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 11:13 AM

Assuming any of these people actually existed..

Building a folklore figure of an amalgamation of deeds of many is a common historical issue.

Considering nobody was the "son of God," and nobody rose from the dead or turned water into wine etc etc, why should any of the more normal tributes of a person be believed? I'm sure that there was a person who resented the way the Judean elders were too comfortable with Roman rule and a bloke called Jesus questioned it and got nailed to a tree for his trouble. I'm equally sure that this was considered martyrdom by those of a similar opinion. The conjuring tricks and "better than the rest of us" persona is easy to see as a way to elevate his reputation.

A bit like Mohammed owning a two stroke flying carpet with performance exhaust and front disk brakes. If you want ignorant peasants to be impressed, make your hero do things they can't. It is beyond my comprehension though why intelligent educated people in the c21 can say that they honestly think the fantasy bits are actually true, whilst laughing at the scientologists and mormons.

I'll tell you what, though. I doubt any inhabitants East of the Mediterranean two thousand years ago were particularly light skinned.... Whatever they were, the classical images of such people have been fairly European, and that is just a sign of the bigotry of the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 11:17 AM

Oh dear! Deranged silliness!

"Of course what we are really talking about is how Muslim and Christian societies and cultures use their religion to regulate and control, rather than the religions themselves."

1) Religion is not some separate entity! It was created and shaped by   man!
2) We only know about Jesus and Mohammed through organised religion!
3) Religion is the problem! A very dangerous, insidious problem.
4) The world will never find anything resembling true peace and understanding until religion is consigned to the primitive, ignorant past from which it was born!


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Aug 14 - 11:32 PM

You seem harmless enough, Tunesmith, but those last two ideas of yours have been used as a springboard to genocide by Robespierre, Hitler, Stalin, such like. Just sayin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 12:10 AM

As hinted in earlier posts, current attitudes among many Muslims of today are shaped by politics, economics and perceived slights. The seriously 'offended' fundamentalist Muslims then view any criticism of policy and/or behavior as an 'insult' to Islam, which requires some sort of response, up to and including (violent) Jihad. Add to that that there is no clearly defined power structure within Islam as there is in, for example, the Catholic church, and any halfway influential cleric can push an agenda.


But to comment on Joe Offer's earlier post: "It's political power taking control over religion - that's the real enemy."'

Yes and no... obviously political meddling can distort even the most seemingly benign religion, but to those who are not IN a religion, or whose general attitude is not particularly religious, it often appears that the very idea of metaphysical entities and divine commandments lends itself to any interpretation that one wants for whatever purpose. Many cults are obvious distortions, but if the details of what is BEING distorted are themselves in doubt, where is the 'remote cause'? (technical philosophical term).

I often post the basic principle: "From false premises, anything follows."

This does not disprove anything... it merely warns that IF there are clear & fundamental differences in several claims or interpretations which cannot all be true, some premises somewhere MUST be false. The corollary is that one need be very careful what one accepts as 'gospel', as there are competing versions. The 'out' many of us choose is to just not subscribe to any proffered alternative. The other alternative is to just choose a 'religious association' that feels comfortable as to message, without claiming absolute divine faith in all the details.

Me? I just surf the concepts and kibitz...


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:12 AM

DMcG says: but an Englishman who sees Christ a a good chap out of Eton (except for those few troublesome days at the end) but the rest of the time well groomed with nicely laundered clothes speaking to other good fellows, we'll, that's not the image I'd promote.

Well, said, well said. And it gave me a good laugh, too.

I'm not all that comfortable with the shrine at Fatima in Portugal, where the Virgin Mary was supposed to have appeared to three children and given them three anti-communist messages (one to be kept secret until revealed by the Pope). How much of that whole thing is healthy, and how much is a product of Salazar's fascism?

But anyhow, I went there about five years ago, and I was a little taken aback by presence of soldiers in the evening candlelight procession. It was a very nice procession, but it was led by a soldier carrying a neon cross, and there was a military color guard accompanying the Blessed Sacrament about two-thirds of the way back in the line of a thousand or so pilgrims.

But anyhow, what I meant to say is that the shrine has a new basilica, a simple, one-story cylinder of white stone. The inside feels quite intimate, although it holds 6,500 people. The most notable thing inside is the crucifix. The body of Christ on the crucifix is twice life-size, and it is supposed to incorporate characteristics of all the ethnic groups on earth. The artist did a good job - I really liked the result.

After Fatima, we went to the shrines at Santiago and Lourdes, where the pilgrims seemed to be far less serious and far more interested in having a good time. I liked those places better, although I have to admit I found a wonderful Irish singaround in the bar of our hotel in Fatima.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:15 AM

Good correction on the colour perception, Joe.
Dave, I did not mean Jesus as the Christian God, but "God" - as in "the father of..." or the combined Trinity.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:25 AM

Stim. I take it you don't think superstition hasn't been used as a "springboard to genocide" then....


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:32 AM

I recently heard a radio programme about religious fundamentalism, particularly about the IS in Iraq and Syria. The point was made that there is ONE Sure in the Koran which specifically 'orders' the killing of non-believers etc. and there are at least 40 others, possibly even more, which either seriously limit the application of this Sure or even countermand it. As I see it, any religious book- Bible, Koran, Talmud, Communist Manifesto etc.- is open to abuse by those with particular agendas- whatever doesn't suit the agenda will either be ignored or so deviously re-interpreted until it fits, and reading between the lines is taken for granted.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:52 AM

I think that,from an anthropological perspective, people tend to interpret real events and,particularly , phenomena, according to their own history,culture,and teachings / beliefs .For example "Manna from Heaven" in the Christian religion and the "Cargo Cult " of isolated island tribesmen ; there has to be some kind of link.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM

Yeah, it's called the quest to explain things. Religion being the lazy option.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:10 AM

........springboard to genocide......?          Not half as much as atheist atrocities, if you want to play that card, musket.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:03 PM

I was thinking of how to answer that but you know what pete? You win.

Yep. Atheist atrocities.

Cos they sure as fuck aren't "love thy neighbour" acts...


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:08 PM

Those who feel the need to commit atrocities will find a reason... that's why I say over & over that one of the characteristics of being Human is the ability to rationalize.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM

OK, time for Voltaire (again)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:56 PM

Bubblyrat, I feel compelled to point out that no Christians were around to partake of the "manna from heaven." ;-)

The date of that event is estimated at approximately 1200 years before Christ.....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:36 PM

Oh, I like Voltaire:

"The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe." (as I said earlier)
― Voltaire

"Love truth, but pardon error."
― Voltaire


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:01 PM

A drift -- on my own thread at that.

But Joe's remark above reminds me that I have always found it fascinating that, according to most estimates of when the two most influential events of our bit of the ancient world happened, Moses was leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt at round about the same time as Agamemnon and his allies were setting sail for Troy.

Exciting times round the Mediterranean shores, eh?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:32 PM

Can someone explain the physics behind manna from heaven?

I remember reading an essay from Isaac Asimov, taking the piss out of a book that explained biblical nonsense as the planet Venus flying by the earth at that time and the hydrocarbons in its tail falling as carbohydrates.

Not much of a chemist but even I had a laugh at the idea of two very different compounds that share elements being... Hang on. He wanted us to believe Venus wandered er.

The book was called " When worlds collide " and a quick google shows that some Christian Science bookshops still sell it.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 08:12 PM

Musket--I wasn't talking superstition. My comment was addressed specifically at the two comments that Tunesmith made, which, though he may not have intended them that way, were the same rationalizations
that have been used in the not so distant past to the immediate present for religious persecutions.

When one says "Religion is the enemy!" one incites people to eliminate religion, either generally or specifically. Generally, they do that by eliminating religious people. History bears me out on this.

So when people introduce those ideas, I feel called upon to talk about where they come from, and where they lead.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 08:56 PM

Musket, when you start applying physics to the poetic idea of manna from heaven, you completely miss the point. Have ye no sense of poetry, man? No imagination?

You and the fundamentalists get too bogged down in the physicality of it, and completely miss the sense of wonder.

I used to get the same thing from kids - they'd keep interrupting and demanding explanations. Don't ask for an explanation, kid, that's what the story says.

Exodus 16:1-36.
    13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was.

    Moses said to them, "It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat. 16 This is what the Lord has commanded: 'Everyone is to gather as much as they need. Take an omer[a] for each person you have in your tent.'"

    17 The Israelites did as they were told; some gathered much, some little. 18 And when they measured it by the omer, the one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little. Everyone had gathered just as much as they needed.

    19 Then Moses said to them, "No one is to keep any of it until morning."

    20 However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.

    21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers[b] for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the Lord commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'"

    24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."

Numbers 11:1-9
    4 The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, "If only we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost—also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. 6 But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!"

    7 The manna was like coriander seed and looked like resin. 8 The people went around gathering it, and then ground it in a hand mill or crushed it in a mortar. They cooked it in a pot or made it into loaves. And it tasted like something made with olive oil. 9 When the dew settled on the camp at night, the manna also came down.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 12:28 AM

My 7, possibly 8 generations back grandfather preached against slavery in Abeeville South Carolina, because he believed that God did not want Christians to own slaves. A great many people in South Carolina thought otherwise. What he did took a fair amount of guts, and, incidentally, he was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: Musket
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 02:52 AM

YES! I do have an imagination Joe!

Sadly, religion is such that many adherents don't have an imagination and look for literal reality in fantasy designed to give comfort for those escaping from the real world for a while.

My reference to "When worlds collide" and for that matter, the rest of the contents of "Christian Science" was making the point that shallow people spoil religion for the rest of you. Despite your devotion to your faith, your defence of the fundamental aims in the face of failures in hierarchy and your study, it must piss you off a bit when a fairly ignorant fool such as pete dismisses you as not being a real Christian?

Tell you what though, when you release your imagination beyond the confines of scripture, you know how to smile indulgently when a person wedded to a religion asks if you have no imagination.....


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM

playing to the house , musket. you usually mock pick and choosing as well.
as far as the manna is concerned, i.ll settle for miracle. no problem if you believe the bible.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 08:00 PM

What an interesting question.

ALL the Old/New Testaments are available FREE on-line...as is a four part parallel translation of the Quoran.

Seek an YE shall find.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle.



if you require a "short-cut" Severe Mercy by C.S. Lewis or Evidence by Josh McDowell might help.


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Subject: RE: BS: A question re Islamic teaching
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 08:35 PM

"and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor."

Edible fungi, enabled to grow by the moisture? Some fungi grow swiftly enough to actually watch them spread.


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