Folklore: border morris

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:58 PM

I would bet good money that almost none of those who dance border would have any idea what Blackface Minstrely was, when it was, who did it, and why. Nor would a vanishingly tiny proportion of the population - and the vast majority of those would be white people taking offence on behalf of minorities who also don't know and care less.

This accusation, that appears only here and sometimes on the MDDL list, is completely fatuous since it assumes some esoteric historical knowledge and racist intent. Neither is likely.

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:47 AM

Intrestin points you make Morris-ey - sounds like you dance

"And something else that I said later on in the same thread:

'Finally, a few people have said that it would be interesting to hear from a black person what they feel about all of this. Well, the article from EDS that I quoted earlier interviewed several people about the practice, including a dance caller named Nigel Hogg. This is what he had to say:

"I have watched many different dance groups around the country, and on certain occasions I have seen groups black up to perform. As a mixed race man I do find this tradition offensive because I see it as a parody mocking people of colour. I would imagine that the people who perform these dances are not racists, and on some levels the people involved have not even though about the implications these dances might have to people of colour." '

The vast majority of English People know little or nothing of morris and care even less. The vast majority of Black People are probably in the same position and would be indifferent to white people blacking up. But some feel uncomfortable and some are offended.

Some respondents on here (Mudcat) have said it's only a few, which of course - we don't know, and anyway they don't care. So, this is people putting on entertainment in a public place, they don't know how many people they offend and they don't care.

Part of the problem is the invented history and purpose that Morris has created for itself

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:10 AM

Some people find alcohol offensive should the country go tetotal to cater for their offence?
Some Moslems believe women should be totaly covered should the burka be introduced to cater for them?
The majority of people believe its no one elses business what they do within reason, who's right Les?

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 06:18 AM

Interstin points again Derrick ............

Multiculturalism, a much abused and misunderstood concept, is I think, an attempt to reflect on the kinds of issues you raise so that we can live with the Irish, whom some English people have treated dreadfully, the Welsh, ditto and all the other people who trust us enough to live here.

I go to parties, generally thrown by 'white Brits' and attended by UK Muslims and loads of other people from various countries and faiths.

We drink a lot and the Muslims and some of others don't. We have a good time and a common cause helps us with our differences and it helps us to forge aliances for a common purpose. We also enjoy each others company.

Scruffy youths pass me in the street with most of their faces covered by huddies - such that no one is allowed in local bars with a hud up. A small minority of women wear the Burka - I try to smile at them as an act of friendship and minor resistance.

Some Border Morris Black up and it probably matters about as much.

However, some people in Morris circles (!) say the 'History of The Morris' is an important part of our culture. Well, if that is so it has to be an honest history not the usual fictional stuff we find on most Morris websites.

And so back to Blackface. Its roots are in 19C Music Hall. Lets be honest and say so. Dances can green up, red up blue up and if anybody asks they can explain why the have decided to do that in the same way the might explain why "They dance dances they have made up, to tunes that were almost certainly never used for morris and on instruments sometimes invented in the 20C. They wear costumes sometimes unrelated to the custom they claim to be reviving".

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:08 PM

Les you said some time back that You Could only find one reference to diguise and black face morris prior to 1750.
The wikepedia page on border morris seems to have found several references prior to that date both in Britain and Europe. The piece seems   be balanced as it refers to the minstrel theory as well.
Having read it I think it shows that the jury is still out on the matter.
No doubt supporters of both sides will read the article to support their preffered view.

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:22 PM

Thanka Derrick - I will check it out

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:45 PM

Les: "And so back to Blackface. Its roots are in 19C Music Hall. Lets be honest and say so. "

As I said above I doubt any blacked-up morris sides would know or accept that. Your saying it does not make it so.

Also, people do not cause offence, people choose to take offence and that is their problem.

Whatever is legal is OK by me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:53 PM

I think this is the wiki link that Derrick refers to:

I have only read it once and found it difficult to reach any kind of conclusion. I have never doubted the practice of some kind of blackface in theatrical and folk customs and that is described here. Some confusion arrises when morris, mumming, begging and so on are desciribed without clear differentiation.

I guess we could all cherry pick what we want from the wiki page, remembering that it is wiki - some of wich is reasonably sound evidence and some is part of the hear say that passes around Morris circles.

I would challenge anyone to come to any clear conclusion other than blackface in some form has a long history - even then with a tenuous connection with Morris and that its prescence becomes much clearer after the influence of Blackface Minstrelsey in Music Hall

Bes wishes and thanks to Derrick for the link

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:55 PM

Wiki on Border Morris

Sorry Here

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:22 AM

Hi Morris ey,

I am surprised at your claim that Border dancers don't know about the origins of what they are doing. I have danced with 2 sides and on and off we discussed what our origins might have been. Here is the last side I danced with:


Gorton Morrismen


And some History

Maybe not all dancers would be familiar with the history but don't the Squire and other organisers know quite a bit?

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:53 AM

We are taliking specifically about blackface border, so I maintain that most will never have heard of your Blackface Minstrelsey.

Subject: RE: Folklore: border morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 01:39 PM

Ok, if that's what you have found I cannot doubt what you say. Just seems most unlike the many Morris people from all brands of Morris that I have known over 50 years


Best wishes