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Portingale (word for Portugal?)

GUEST 17 Sep 14 - 01:21 AM
GUEST,Ed 17 Sep 14 - 02:03 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM
MartinRyan 17 Sep 14 - 03:23 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 14 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 14 - 08:32 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,# 17 Sep 14 - 12:28 PM
MartinRyan 17 Sep 14 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Original Poster 19 Sep 14 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,John Moulden 20 Sep 14 - 11:45 AM
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Subject: Portingale
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 01:21 AM

A recent post in one of the "Over the Hills and Far Away" threads referred to the word "Portingale" sometimes being heard sung in the chorus instead of "Portugal". Ditto in the song "Fathom the Bowl".

Any one ever come across this from a collected source, oral or printed?


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Subject: RE: Portingale
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:03 AM

Child 80: Old Robin of Portingale


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Subject: RE: Portingale
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM

Guest Ed, I am aware of Old Robin, but not really relevent to my interest. But thanks anyway.

I'm more interested in the use of Portingale (presumably some sort of old English name for Portugal) in more modern(ish) times, rather than Portugal in fairly commonly known folk songs.

Would this be from a traditional source, or just some revivalist singer's bit of affectation?


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Subject: RE: Portingale
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 03:23 AM

Curiously, the Irish word for Portugal is "Poirtingéil", pronounced roughly as I presume your "Portingale" is. It's a bit complicated by inflection depending on grammatical case and use of the definite article - but it certainly sounds very similar. I don't recall ever hearing/seeing it in English usage.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Portingale
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 08:05 AM

Now that is interesting, Martin, and could explain its usage in these songs, though to my knowldge I can't recall hearing versions of either of these songs from Irish sources, in either the English or the Irish language, but please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Off to Google "Portugal" in Welsh, Cornish etc. to see if there is a similar connection....

Thanks Martin.


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Subject: RE: Portingale
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 08:32 AM

Portugal, in Cornish, is Portyngal.


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Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM

I note the thread heading has been expanded to "Portingale (word for Portugal?)", as above.

Seeking Portingale on Wikipedia brings up "Portugal (redirected from Portingale"; which would appear to confirm that the answer to the question is Yes.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 12:28 PM

Click here

Worth a read.


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Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:17 PM

Some interesting background in this item from a Portuguese/American journal:
Click here

Given the timelines, my guess is that the older English "Portingale" was imported into Ireland, absorbed into the Irish language and "froze" there when "Portuguese" appeared in modern English.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?)
From: GUEST,Original Poster
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 03:39 AM

Interesting reading. Thank you Martin and Guest#.

It would seem then that the term was gradually replaced by Portugal from the C16th onwards, at least in England, and appearing in print only rarely.

Still wondering whether the usage of Portingale (or Poirtingéil/Portyngal) in the songs mentioned appears in any C19th or C20th collected versions of these songs (or indeed in any other songs).

Did it survive for longer perhaps in regional vernacular (other than in Ireland and Cornwall)?

Just curious....


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Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?)
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 11:45 AM

Eddie Butcher in the song, Anne Jane Thronton, rendered Portugal as Portingale. For more on this see my article on the song and its historical background in Irish Folk Music Studies (the last number published).


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