Songs in minor key that aren't sad?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 02:06 PM

I think some folks earlier on in this thread are confusing songs in Dorian, Mixolydian or Aeolian modes with the two Minor modes( Melodic or Harmonic). There are also, as the last poster said, many other modes found in traditional music from other cultures which don't fit into these straight-jackets.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 01:53 PM

quote: Not every scale with one sharp in it is G major. The one you posted is, in fact, an A harmonic minor scale.

Thanks very much, Stim. I always suspected it was A minor, since the chords are Am, Dm, and E. If I had thought about the fact that each line of the melody ends on b, I probably would have been puzzled by that, but I never thought about it before. Now that you've piqued my curiosity, I'll definitely try to read about those 3 types of minor scales.

Usually when I try to read about music theory it leads to the thing you said -- that it's very complicated and I have to learn a lot of other things first. In college I was taught that one test of whether I really understand something is that I should be able to explain it to an educated person who knows nothing about the subject. Maybe that doesn't apply to music.

I'm not against book-learning. I have 9 years of college, and I take continuing education courses every month and learn new technology almost every day. But music is not my profession and I've never felt the need to learn music theory for what I do, which is just sing and play guitar. I can always find lovely chords to accompany any song, mostly by a process of trial and error which I thoroughly enjoy.

Except for the Apolytikia in Tones 2, 4, 5, and 6. I can't find any chords to fit those four hymns. I'm content to sing them a capella, but I am curious about the fact that I can't find chords to fit them. Maybe they'll turn out to be in one of those 3 types of minor keys.

If you or anyone else wouldn't mind analyzing them, these are the notes used in each, from lowest to highest, with the ending note capitalized:
Apolitikion in Tone 2: a, a#, C, c#, e, f, g
Apolitikion in Tone 4: g, A, a#, c, d, e, f, g
Apolitikion in Tone 5: f, g, A, b, c, d
Apolitikion in Tone 6: g#, a, C, c#, d#, e, g, g#

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,jlo
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 09:42 AM

Start in http://www.cimbalom.nl/song.html and follow the alphabet.
It might remain personal, but for me songs like A becsali csárdában, A falusi utca ligetesligetes, A pecellói templom tetejére and many more are not sad

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:17 AM

I gave you a very good idea about how to figure out what key you're playing in. It's usually pretty easy to figure out what key you're in if you know the chord progression you're playing.

The thing is, you want a simple trick that will explain everything. Some tunes are simple, and can be simply explained, and but a lot of music is a lot more complex than that, and so the explanations are more complex. You also have to have a fair amount of basic music knowledge to understand the explanations.

It's true that a G major scale has one sharp in it, but that is F#. Not every scale with one sharp in it is G major. The one you posted is, in fact, an A harmonic minor scale. There is also an A natural minor and an A melodic minor scale. And there are a whole bunch of others.

You have to learn the interval structure of the different scales, and you have to be able to identify them by ear. You also have to learn how the chords and their inversions are constructed.

The answer to your questions is "no". You need to sit down and learn a whole lot of basic stuff.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 12:41 PM

Well, this is really disappointing. Especially after being told "if you don't want music theory don't ask questions like that! We'll never stop!"

Stim gave me a clear and concise rule to tell whether a song is in a major or minor key. I thought I was on my way to finally understanding something about music theory. But that clear and concise rule hinges on what the first step of the scale is, and now it seems that no one can give a clear and concise rule as to what determines the first step of the scale, other than that it's whatever the person who wrote the score decided was the first step and so indicated in the key signature.

So if I write a song using no sharps or flats, and sign it with a single sharp, but in front of all the f's in the melody I put a natural sign, that means the song is in the key of G? And if I write the same melody again, this time signing it with two sharps and putting natural signs in front of both the f's and the c's, is the song now in D-minor? How about if I also sign it J.S. Bach, does that mean it was written in the 18th century?

And since I don't have the version of Misirlou that I learned as a child written in dots, I'm told that I can "count the sharps or
flats". As I said previously, that melody uses a b c d e f and g#. There's only one sharp. So it's in the key of G? Then how can I tell whether it's major or minor? What's the first step of the scale when g isn't even used in the melody?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:55 AM

Like Tattie Bogle said. You look at the key signature if it's written, or count the sharps or
flats if it's not. You do have to learn that 1 flat is F, 2 is Bb, 3 is Eb etc. though...and you have to learn that Dm is the relative minor to F, Gm to Bb, etc.

Mostly, it isn't very hard. You can tell what key something is in by just looking at the chord progression. If a song starts in Am and goes to E7, it's in Am. If it starts on a C and goes to G7, it's in C. If the chord is D instead, and it goes to A7, guess what key it is...

If the song starts on a Seventh chord(like G7), it is likely in the key of the chord that follows it, which, most of the time, would be a fourth above (or fifth below).

For that, you would have to learn what that G is the 5th of C, A is the 5th of D and such like.

Mostly (wet noodle time again) this is stuff you should have learned when you were learning to play.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 04:27 AM

There are some that change on the way through, e.g Johnny Cope to the more usual tune - minor in the verses, major chorus.
The Dark Island starts in a minor key, but pretty soon switches to major, then goes back to minor, back to major, all in the first half of the tune: the second half is major, tho' some accompanists will put in the odd minor chord.
Rules: (only talking about standard Western majors and minors here) - the key is determined by the key signature but that only helps if you read music. E.g. 3 sharps is either A major or F# minor. ( The "relative minor", i.e. the one that shares the same key signature, is always 3 semitones below its relative major - which would be 3 consecutive notes on a keyboard or frets on a guitar.) Whether it is major or minor then depends on how it sounds, which reflects what intervals are used in the melody: if it's minor you will hear minor thirds and sixths, even if you don't know if recognise what they are. Melodies very often do not start on the keynote, and in some cases do not even end on it.
As for modes....there are huge long threads about these elsewhere, as well as other types of scale used in other corners of the world. My "rough guide" to modes is - if you can't decide whether it's major or minor, it's probably modal. (Vastly over-simplified I know!)

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 01:40 AM

I must not have made my question clear. I'm not asking about different ways of singing a song. I'm saying once the melody is clearly established, and I know what notes are used in the melody, and what note it starts on and what note it ends on and what every note in the melody is, how can I say for certain what key that version of that song is in, and whether it's major or minor? Is there a rule about that, like the rule about what constitutes a minor key? Surely you're not saying that I can call it any key I want, i.e. that I can pick any note in the melody and say that note is the first step of the scale.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 09:58 PM

The first note of the scale is called the "key note".. also the tonic, so yeah.. A lot of times, the first note in the melody (after intros or pick-ups notes) is the first note in the scale. Sometimes it's not, though, so you look at the note that the melody ends up on.

The thing is, you can play any song in any key, so the first step of the scale is whatever note you want it to be.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 12:41 PM

quote: ...the thing that makes a minor key a minor key is that the distance from the first to the third step of the scale is a minor third rather than a major third.

That's very helpful (after I looked up the definition of "major third" and "minor third"), but it raises another question for me: How do I know which note is the first step in the scale? Usually I figure the final note of the song is the first step in the scale. But with Misirlou (the non-definitive Greek way that I learned it) that doesn't seem likely. And there may be other songs like that, only I've never thought about them in this way. So is there some hard and fast rule that'll tell me what the first step of the scale is for any song? If so, I can use that in combination with the quoted rule above to figure out whether any song is in a major or minor key. And will that also tell me which major or minor key it is? In other words, is the first note in the scale always the name of the key, as I've been assuming?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Guest Betsy
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 11:30 AM

Hi Stim ,
Let's call it a draw .......
Jeez, I've sung Sunny afternoon loads and loads of time over the last 40 odd years - "Sunday" was a Senior moment.
Secondly, though the Original tune / song direct Russian translation ,might well be "Moscow nights" Kenny Ball (as I referred to earlier) released "Midnight in Moscow" in 1961.

Highland man - I've had another think re:- First Time....and I think you're technically correct ythough I feel the minor is a strong influence.

Cheers
Betsy

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 10:09 AM

Joe, I wonder if maybe that emotion-evoking quality is why the OP asked about minor key songs that aren't sad. I.e., maybe it's not that minor key songs are usually sad, but it's that they usually evoke some powerful emotion, whether sadness or joy or love. Only not the kind of emotion that marching bands evoke, if emotion is the right word for that.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 10:02 AM

Yes, that must be a different tune. Is that the one the rock version uses? All the notes are either 1 or 3 frets apart. The way I learned it there's only one 3-fret interval, and three 2-fret intervals. Maybe your version is in a major key but mine is in a minor key? I have no idea.

I learned it from hearing it as a kid in the 50's. My father sang it, and he had it on a record, and the bands at church dances always sang it. I knew it was popular in other cultures, but I never heard other versions before and didn't realize there were different melody lines.

So it's not unfamiliar to me, and in fact it was very easy to learn. Until now I never questioned what key it was in. It seemed like a minor key because of the chords. I never thought about which minor key. I generally don't think about that stuff much. The chords for Schubert's Ave Maria were difficult for me. In that case I knew I was in uncharted territory and that I couldn't say what key it is. It uses such a lot of chords.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 09:39 AM

I've done music for most of my life, and I still haven't learned how to identify a minor-key song with certainty.

If I look at the key signature on music notation and the song doesn't start and end on the notes I expect, that's a pretty good indication it's minor.

If I have trouble learning a song because I can't make the half-steps sound quite right, that's another indication it's minor.

If the song is what I would call "emotionally evocative" (i.e., it draws something out of my soul, that's also a pretty good sign it's minor.

But to identify a minor-key song with certainty, is a skill that has eluded me. I suppose I'd learn quicker if I could play an instrument other than my voice. I sure like a lot of the songs mentioned above, especially Eva's Polka. I wish Mudcat had "like" buttons so I could "like" a number of the posts above.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 08:30 AM

Well, first off, we disagree significantly on the notes. In B, I have B-C-D#-E-F#-G-A#. Next, you talk about "The Greek melody" as if you've got the definitive version. Not so. The song has been around for a long time and is of indeterminate origin. It's been reworked a lot, as you can tell by going here The Mysteries of Misirlou.

Last, you talk about it being weird, confusing, and not what you'd expect. That has to do with you, not with the song. It's different from what you're used to, that's all. It follows some very clear melodic and harmonic rules, and there is a lot of other music that follows similar rules, you just aren't familiar with them. Listen to "Caravan", "On a Little Street in Singapore", and "Uskudara"

That said, I think it's great that you are working with music that is outside of your "familiar"
envelope. It's only confusing at first...once you start to understand it a little bit, a whole
new world opens up.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 12:47 AM

Stim, in response to your post I listened to Dick Dale performing a weird rock version of Misirlou at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y3h9p_c5-M. It reminded me of Jingle Bell Rock and Red River Valley Rock. But I couldn't hear any chords at all.

The tune he played seemed similar to the way it's sung in Greek, but it's hard to say if it's exactly the same. The Greek melody, in the key that I sing it in (whatever that is), uses b c d e f g# & a. I listed b first because all the lines end in b, which ordinarily would make me suspect that it's in the key of B-something. But it doesn't use any of the chords that I would expect to use for the key of B or B-minor. The final chord is E, of all things, and the other two chords are Am & Dm. Except for the fact that it starts and ends with an E chord, the chords are what I would normally use for a song that I think of as being in the key of A-minor. If it's A-minor, then I guess I should say the notes are a b c d e f & g#. Very confusing.

I don't know how to play a Db7, but I tried singing Misirlou with E and F7, which I guess is equivalent to C and Db7. That didn't sound very good to me.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:21 PM

Glenn--Miserlou is absolutely and positively major in the Western sense, because it has a major third in the scale. In western music, this is sometimes called the Double Harmonic Major Scale, owing to the fact that it has two 1 1/2 step intervals, one between the 2nd and 3rd and the other between the 6th and 7th, in the fashion of the Harmonic Minor Scale.

In Arabic music, this is called Maqam Hijaz Kar.

In Arabic music, the scales are called Maqam, and though of as two consecutive trichords, each of which has a name. Hijaz being the name of the trichord that consists of 1/2 step-1 1/2 step-1/2 step-Hijaz Kar consists of two Hijaz trichords, on that starts on C, the other that starts on G.

All of the notes in all three parts of Miserlou occur in two major chords--
in the key of C, those two chords would be C {C-E-G} and Db7 {Db-F-Ab-Cb(B)}.

So GUEST this means that you can play the song using just those two *major* chords. You'll sound just like Dick Dale. No minor chords needed, or even wanted.

That said, I am inclined to play the third part of the melody:(still in C):

||FF/FF/EbEb/EbEb/DbDb/DbDb/CC/CC/
DbDb/CC/CC/DbDb/DBDb/CC/CC||

Jack Campin knows a lot about modes and maqams, and such things(way more than me), but this is probably TMI already;-)

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 08:44 PM

yes you're right about marie's wedding!
sorry!
i think the reason i thought it was that it sounds so much better in dadgad - that sort of modal thing.

lonesome traveller is a nice lively one - definitely in a minor key!

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Gda Music
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 04:41 PM

Nothing sad about this one .... Lord Kitchener - *Pan in A Minor*

http://youtu.be/DGPwBXUKK7I

GJ

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 02:03 PM

Guest, if you don't want music theory don't ask questions like that! We'll never stop!

Misirlou is neither major nor minor in the Western sense -- it's not even Western after all. As best I can tell you it's in something like "double harmonic minor" but it should more properly be referred to as one of the Arabic modes -- but there I've gone off the reservation and will say no more, as I don't know anything really about Mideastern music.

Betsy, I say "no" on "The First Time." I hear that as a major key that happens to start on the second degree chord (dm if the key is C). Most of my theory sources say that it's where a progression ends rather than where it begins that defines its key, and TFTIESYF definitely ends each repeat on the major.

I think Phil Cunningham's "Eilidh" one of the saddest songs ever sung in a major key.

Cheers
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:37 AM

So is Misirlou in a major key? It sounds weird and murky, and the chords are Am, Dm, and E. I always thought that's what makes a song minor key; but I know nothing about music theory.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 11:04 PM

I want to point out that the thing that makes a minor key a minor key is that the distance from the first to the third step of the scale is a minor third rather than a major third. By this logic (which has prevailed for a good number of centuries) Miserlou, for instance, is *NOT* in a minor key.

Beyond that, thirty lashes with the proverbial wet noodle to Jason above for not knowing that C is the relative major to Am, and that as often as not, minor melodies tend to pass through the relative major--"Sunny Afternoon" (NOT "SUNDAY) AND "Moscow Nights" being examples.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:41 PM

Good question .....someone more eloquent than I, may be able to express it more succinctly , but surely the whole of English-speaking countries, Europe, Scandinavia and Russia heve evolved and developed musical tastes using the Minor as a serious / sad tone - especially classical music.
Incidentally , Big Al says on 23 Sep 14 - 06:05 AM Mhairis's Wedding is Minor - Sorry Al I'm not having THAT - deffo a Major.
Anyway , back to the thread - I would think many of Jake Thackaray's songs would be in the Minor key , and I sing a Benny Hill humourous song in the Minor, and on occasions when I'm in good company (and tiddly) The Kinks' "Lazing on a Sunday afternoon " .
In my formative years, Kenny Ball also played Midnight in Moscow which I thought was sensational.
I suppose McColl gets in the picture with "The very first time I saw you face".
BTW - As I have read most of the above Posts, IMHO "Step it out Mary" is an extemely emotive song, which I adore, but has no place in this thread. When the subject boy and girl drown themselves at the end of the song - I'd say THAT'S fairly sad and doesn't meet the Thread's criteria
That's enough brain-storming from me for now.

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:31 PM

Come to think, many Israeli songs (in Hebrew) are in a minor key as well, including happy ones (e.g., Finjan).

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Sonya
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 01:26 PM

Perhaps
I Will Survive
Dance me to the End of Time

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: kendall
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 11:31 AM

Lather & shave. Joe Hickerson used to sing this one.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Barbara Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 10:57 AM

Hey ho, nobody home.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Richard Robinson
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 07:28 AM

God rest ye merry, Gentlemen

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:25 AM

Eagles and Horses by John Denver is a real delight, too.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:52 AM

yeh that's a minor


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4om1rQKPijI

very nice too!

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:44 AM

i don't know the piece, but if the second verse resolves itself on a minor chord, i would say it was. but i take your point.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 01:29 AM

I think one of the problems is how to define "a song in minor key".

Take the aforementioned "Eva's Polka" for example, the chords to its first verse are "Am - Em - Am - G - Em - Am", and the second verse "C - G - Em - Am - C - G - Em - Am".

So, does it become "a song in major key" if you put the second verse before the first verse? I don't think this is plausible.

Any idea?

Jason

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:23 PM

Ca' the Yeowes Frae The Knowes"

The Fairy's Love Song (That Mi Skiddle in Gaelic>)

"Babylon is Fallen"

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:31 PM

Something seems to have happened to a lot of people's cookies, including mine. The mention of Yiddish songs was by me.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:42 PM

Searching for Lambs

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: 12-stringer
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:44 PM

When It's Chittlin' Cookin' Time in Cheatham County

Nellie Coming Home from the Wake

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 11:15 AM

The Lark in the Morning.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:41 AM

Leather Wing Bat

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Dave Illingworth
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:32 AM

Donald where's your troosers.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:24 AM

Nature Boy

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:03 AM

I might be able to help if I knew what a minor key was, but you might as well ask me what colour the music is as what key it is in.

I have tried to understand music theory but it just never 'clicked'.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 10:17 PM

or if you want to try something tricky

the rocky road to dublin
the galway races

you'll find them on Dubliners albums

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 09:44 PM

spancil hill

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 09:19 PM

A lot of Trinidadian Calypsos are in minor keys, and they're always very happy songs.

And Misirlou, an internationally known and once wildly popular Arabic-flavored Greek love song.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 09:17 PM

????

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,list
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 09:07 PM

Beat It
The Single Bollinder
House of the Rising Sun
St. James Infirmary
Sultans of Swing
Eva's Polka
Ballad of Lorena Bobbitt
Luang Prabang
Step it out Mary
Jennifer's Rabbit
Gold Watch Blues
Brigg Fair
Lovely Joan
Nelly the Milkmaid
The Ghost of Ann Boleyn
Ying Tong Song
Cuckoo's Nest
Sha! Shtil!
Yidl mitn Fidl
Star Of The County Down
Ninna, Nanna
Shady Grove

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:22 PM

Shady Grove

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:20 PM

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDSk4zwjg5A

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:15 PM

Ninna, Nanna

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM

All the girls in France
Take their knickers off to dance…