Guest Nights on the way out

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 08:33 PM

a fortnightly pub session (definitely NOT of the singaround variety!)

???

Why the puzzlement? At least we kept traditional music going, which, without us, it wouldn't have done. I am very grateful to John Maughan and the Tree Inn Folk Club for getting me going. But it became more and more difficult to keep alive in Bude, a small, remote seaside town, with things moving on and more and more reliance on one bloke to keep the show on the road. I agree with Bonnie about this being a heartbreak thread, but we need to reflect on how rather stiff local traditions (I exempt John from that, actually, as he tried very hard to adapt) struggle to keep up with changing times.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:58 PM

Fay and Jon's club is packed out and prebooked altho it is true to say the room is quite small and standing room is at £5 normally (seated £10) there isa formula for the night with warm up songs before the guest, works well enough and some floor singers do turn up a bit late just for the late session

Ray

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:41 PM

Kelso (the last time I went there) did guest-first, or sometimes a *very* short floorspot and then the guest. The part that followed the guest could go on till the small hours with the average age of performers and listeners getting steadily younger. There was a usually a bunch of young people with guitars waiting outside for their chance.

I don't see a problem with that. The guest could get to bed at a reasonable hour if they wanted and more people got to play in a more loosened-up setting. Everybody was happy. One of the liveliest clubs I've met with.

This depends on appropriately flexible licencing rules and having no neighbours within earshot.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:14 PM

How do the guest-first clubs stop the wanna-sing-ers from just turning up late?
I haven't seen the guest-first format where I live but I would guess that the whole point is that they can. Better than having an MC who feels obliged to put them on before the guest when they turn up half way through the second set of floor spots.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 05:48 PM

How do the guest-first clubs stop the wanna-sing-ers from just turning up late? Or is that a problem? I'm a long time out of the folk clubs, but this thread is a heartbreak read.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Bizibod
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 05:28 PM

Poppy Folk Club in West Bridgford Nottingham always has the guest on first. Guests have very often chosen to stay on to join in with singaround which follows.Marvellous variety of guests whose presence is widely advertised by the club management has ensured very good turnouts, often selling out in advance.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 01:06 PM

Yes Fay and Jon Boden's club at Sheffield has guest on first

Booked guests however the night is arranged must have the alloted time!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 11:36 AM

"
A folk club near me always puts the guest on First, the. Afterwards the evening becomes a singers night! "

That's a format that I have heard of in "nu folk" venues but haven't come across in the classic folk scene.

There is no way you can give guest night floor spots to everybody who turns up on a singers night. The worst case I have known was an MC whose mates, who never supported singers nights, regularly rolled up on guest nights only after 10:00 and still got a spot with the paid guest doing about 20 minutes instead of 45

Singers clubs and guest booking clubs have different aims and mixing the two can lead to problems like the OP's. Separating into distinct "guest club" and "singaround" events seems beneficial as they can be promoted as separately and there no automatic expectation for the former to give floor spots to every singaround regular.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 10:48 AM

A folk club near me always puts the guest on First, the. Afterwards the evening becomes a singers night!

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Orson Trap
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 10:32 AM

What is annoying is when you attend a club on singers nights (free or not)and then pay to see a guest (not a problem), the same number of singers are also on. This means the guest artist is hardly on at all or else comes back on very late when you are getting ready to leave for home, especially for people who have travelled there by bus or train or, have to get up early next day for work.
It is best if the host just does a couple of songs before the 'artist' comes at the beginning of the night and maybe a nominated 'support' just doing a couple before the artist comes back on after the interval. Weekly clubs have an artist on once a month (or fortnight or as and when), don't singers/musicians have all night to themselves on singers nights?

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:27 AM

Seems to me there are so many variable factors as to what will make an audience turn out.

At The Milkmaid in Bury St Edmunds, we've recently changed our routine, and no longer have 'open' type nights, but have a main act and a support. Once a month is a 'nationally' known guest, once a month a quality local act as the main act, and more or less monthly americana nights.

There is now a seperate club, the Bury Folk Collective catering for those that want self entertainment, putting on an 'open night' monthly, 'mainly trad unacompanied round the room' again monthly, and an 'unplugged americana' monthly.

The Milkmaid has had a mixed bag in terms of numbers recently and it seems to me that it is more down to the draw of the individual act, and if they have a following in the local area. As a 'for instance' recent guests have included Brooks Williams, who although an American, lives just down the road in Cambridge and is well known both locally and nationally, and Wendy Arrowsmith, who made her first apperance at the Milkmaid a couple of months ago, but not her first apperance in Bury St Edmunds, and has built a bit of a local following here, both of those acts drew decent crowds of between 30-40. Just over a week ago, we had American act Beverley Smith and John Grimm, and a paying audience of 6! Earlier on in the year, Roy Bailey and Peter Knight's Gigspanner both had an almost full house. The nights with the quality local acts are generally fairly well attended, as it gives them an opportunity to showcase themselves with a full length concert, and of course they all encourage friends etc to come along.

Promotion is all important, we use facebook, posters in the town, the local press (if we can get them to do it, which can be a struggle!)leaflets at other events etc etc.

John

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,IainG
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:15 AM

I haven't run a club for quite a few years now, however I always used to book the guests which the club regulars wanted to see. We always had as good a turn out for both guest and singers nights.

Not sure how it would work these days but if people are not coming it might be that the wrong people are being booked for your regulars.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 05:40 AM

Yes this is very interesting and can agree with much of what has been said

Barnsley folk and acoustic have been trying "hot spots" of 40 mins duration which has the benefit of leaving time for musicians and regular singers to perform ~ who would not want to come if they can't play or sing on the night

Full guest of 2 x 45 mins leaves little time for floor singers, some say a good job ~ we are a weekly club on a Monday night and suffer as has been outlined above!!

Yes 25 is a good figure for attendance, and it takes a long time to educate the "audience" to appreciate the skills and talents of guests ~ you can have the "wrong audience" if you are unlucky on the night

Ray

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 04:33 AM

a fortnightly pub session (definitely NOT of the singaround variety!)

???

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 03:58 AM

In North Kent we have 2 established folk clubs. One is a guest every week - with - mostly - the same floor singers. It has the advantage of very good beer. The same 50% of the audience go every week. In August it has smaller sing arounds. The other is more varied - singers nights and guests nights with a wide range of floor spots, and running sessions at local festivals.   

I think one thing the guests could do is find out and consider the type of club they are attending and revise what they do with more thought. eg If it's a join in type club then do plenty to join in with( rather than the latest new 6 songs from my CD). If its a listening club then change appropriately. Also, they could have the courtesy to listen to the floor spots, with the proviso they are tuned up and ready to go when asked.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 09:04 PM

Cor, tricky one. Our folk club was at the Tree Inn in Stratton (Bude), run by the mighty John Maughan until about 1996, when it finally folded after a brief sojourn at the Globe Hotel, which proved to be a somewhat less than suitable venue. Well, actually, it didn't exactly fold as such, rather it evolved into a fortnightly pub session (definitely NOT of the singaround variety!) which is still going strong at The Tree - no guest nights now. The guests we had in the early to mid-90s read like a stellar list these days. We had Roy Bailey, Martin Carthy, Andy Irvine, Flook, the Poozies, Wood and Cutting, the House Band, Tom Paxton, Brian Peters (better not leave him out, as he's here!), Ron Kavana, John Kirkpatrick, Brendan Power, Show Of Hands, Liam O'Flynn... (sorry if I left you out). Loads of others, just as great. I recall that the guest night was every other Friday. The floor-spotters always got a bash on guest nights, but it was a bit of a push at times. There was a misfire every now and then when we'd have a poorly-attended guest night, and that probably got worse as the 1996 demise got nearer. A lot of those names seem like legends to me now. I wonder whether the modern batch have anything like the same charisma. Dunno. Just wondering. Not that charisma necessarily means good. But it may mean bums on seats!

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 08:30 PM

"We do ok at singarounds and sessions but the minute we ask people to pay they don't come. Is it just our club or is this happening generally. "

There are people who prefer singers nights / singarounds and people who prefer guest nights. Different audiences that need different marketing strategies.

My experience as a club organiser was:
1. Holding down prices didn't attract people. If you go too far below the going rate for a gig it gives the impression of a lack of quality and discourages outsiders.
2. We needed a guest about once a month otherwise we ended up with the same people cycling through the same fairly limited set of songs far too quickly

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 08:12 PM

We run a monthly (more or less) ballad workshop. When we do a teaching session, we have a set of charges which takes account of members, non-members and concessions -- the aim is to cover room hire charges and photocopying. And we also run a raffle at each event (homemade chutney or marmalade, donated books or CDs etc) to build up funds for guest events.

And then periodically we have these guest events, for which we charge more -- although on the same sliding scale.

We're now into our 5th year and are endlessly encouraged by the goodwill of our core support, who seem to appreciate the opportunity to explore the great narrative songs -- lots of discussion and argument around motive etc.

So maybe the answer is to have a very specific focus for your group?

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 08:10 PM

It comes down to the bloke running the club. if you have a core of decent singers - let them know they are valued; that their input is vital to leavening the evening, and shows the way to progress, for less experienced singers. i can think of a lot of good performers who stick out for a gig rather than lending their talents, because they feel exploited.

certainly it becomes all too easy to be regarded as the local idiot who pulls the irons out of the fire of local folk clubs, whilst the club organisers are having it large with loss making gigs with folk music 'greats'.

its down to respect. if you give it, you have some chance of getting it back.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 08:05 PM

Two clubs I go to have session nights most weeks and guest nights less frequently, and yes, there is a bit of a problem getting some of the regulars at sessions to support the guest nights. We do have a small fee for session nights, which helps to subsidise the guest nights. At the one club we always pay an agreed fee, regardless of size of audience: when it has been very small, a couple of the artists have suggested that they would take a lower fee, but we have always refused this noble offer and paid what was agreed. There are a few floor spots at both of these clubs on guest nights so for those who "just want to sing" there is still a chance of one song if they get there early enough! On a busy session night you may only get one song anyway at one of these clubs.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: stallion
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 07:30 PM

mmmmmm, er, yes, the answer, I think, lies in the quality of the performers, Roland at the Black Swan, York, is pretty tough and direct and manages very well. To get bums on seats one has to put a decent show on week in week out or turn it into a sing around or session with no paid guests and quite rightly everyone regardless of talent or expertise gets a go, it is very important that the genre remains inclusive but to get an audience one has to appeal to a wider section of society, I think most people are like myself, have quite an eclectic mix of musical tastes, a penchant for live music rather than recorded music, but if am listening I do like it played well.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 06:01 PM

I used to go to a club which had a core audience of 10-15 people and a core group of five or six floor singers (the MC very rarely bothered booking a guest). It was great; most weeks you'd get two songs in the first half and one in the second. Then something changed, more or less from one week to the next, and the club was inundated by young people with guitars. A typical night these days consists of 20+ floor singers doing one number each, to an audience consisting of other singers and their mates - plus that core audience of 10-15 people, most of whom are still there.

Of course, on a guest night there's no chance of 20 people getting a go - although even then the MC tries to squeeze in six or seven - so on those nights the audience consists of anyone who's actually come out for those acts in particular... plus those 10-15 loyal people. It's a bit of a shame.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 04:58 PM

"I only want to sing" says it all. With this attitude there would be no one to listen.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 04:50 PM

Ironic that many festivals seem to be going in the opposite direction with fewer and fewer opportunities for fringe singers.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 04:06 PM

Always amuses me when artists ask for 80 per cent of the door. They'd be very upset if that's what we gave them.
At HaverFolk where we charge £1.50 for singers nights which builds up a fund for a guest every two months. Even when we keep the prices down to £3 for members and £5 for non-members we still have smallish audiences even for John Conolly and Algar & Russell.
What infuriates me more than the people who stay away are those who turn up on a guest night then won't come in saying: "I only want to sing"
And some of these talent free buggers are the sort who should be paying treble to get people to listen to them.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,trews
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 03:47 PM

We have found just the same over the last couple of years and now we don't book guests as attendance is so bad even tho we subsidised like Leadfingers. Yet they come in droves for the singaround.

Subject: RE: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 02:46 PM

What is your Charging system ? If all your singarounds and sessions are free , its hardly surprising people won't pay for guest nights , especially if its a lot of cash
Maidenhead charges a small fee for singaroundss which gives the funds a boost so that prices for guests are not excessive .

Subject: Review: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Bignige77
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 02:15 PM

We are finding it more and more difficult to get people to attend our Guest Nights. We do ok at singarounds and sessions but the minute we ask people to pay they don't come. Is it just our club or is this happening generally.