capo question

Subject: capo question
From: joeler
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 12:33 PM

When I capo up my base string goes sharp. Is this normal or is it my guitar? Does anybody else have this problem and if so how do they correct it? Thanks

Subject: RE: capo question
From: sophocleese
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 12:37 PM

It always happens with my guitar. I now use a slightly looser capo,and that's helped as little. Also I've noticed a lot of musicians place the capo at an angle so that the capo is further from the fret for the lower strings. Nonetheless there is frequently a little adjustment necessary.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Tony Burns
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 12:53 PM

At least one Canadian performer puts his capo on the fret. Try it, it might work for you.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 01:25 PM

The problem you describe is a common problem with using capos, and there are two common causes; 1) the capo will very often place uneven pressure on the neck because of the way it works, or because of the way you place it 2) necks and fret imperfections will show up or be exaggerated when using a capo. The ways to fix it;
* find a capo that applies firm, even pressure across your fingerboard. Some capos are better than others for your guitar. Find one that matches the curve of your finger board.
* place the capo carefully straight across and just below the fret. ceck to be sure the pressure doesn't pull the strings or even a string to one side.
* when you have placed the capo on as well as you can, and you still have a string or two that's out, retune carefully - find the one string that is off compared to the others and tune it only. A trick to tuning with the capo (especially if it's not too dar off) is to find the offending string if it's sharp, push the string into the the sound hole with your right hand - ie stretching the string. You can actually drop it a good quater tone with method, if it needs more, used the tuners.

Tuning with the capo on is dangerous because as soon as you move i, you're out again, and you will be tuning all night, and out most of the night! Good luck!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 01:39 PM

It helps to have a capo on which the pressure can be adjusted, depending on the depth of the neck of the instrument and the height of the action, to squonch the strings down just enough to the firm contact with the fret, but no more. Shubb is one of the best for this.

I like a Shubb for playing where someone can actually hear the guitar, and a Keyser for loud jams at parties and festivals, etc., where no one will hear it if the pitch is off, but it's handy to be able to leave the capo on the headstock so you don't lose it.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 01:41 PM

I do agree with Liams thoughts reagarding capos but for all my instruments, I have found the Shubb to be the best for my use.

Jon

Subject: RE: capo question
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 02:14 PM

The Shubb is a nice capo, but the best one for my money is the Victor. Its made of brass and can be adjusted for either flat or curved fingerboards and uses a rack and pinion-type arrangement for tightening. This allows you to use just enough pressure to prevent the strings from buzzing. It's been the only one I've used that didn't throw my guitar out of tune. The only place I've run across them is at the Augusta Heritage Center when I go there for Irish Week.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: willie-o
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 02:15 PM

Used to buy those Shubbs. I'm not very good at hanging onto small objects though and got tired of spending $100/year on capos.

Nowadays I stick with a $6 Jim Dunlop "double action" (two elastic straps). Works great, and you can pull it off the fretboard slightly after moving it, to allow the strings to align themselves properly. Only down side is that observation Bob Weir is heard to make on a live Grateful Dead record "you can lose a finger tryin' to use it."

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Llanfair
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 02:29 PM

Joel!!! I haven't seen you post for ages!!! how are you? I haven't forgotten the music I am going to send you. Play your tape lots!!!! Hwyl, Bron.

Subject: RE: capo question
From:
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 03:15 PM

Liam, when you say just below the fret do you mean to capo an E to G, you would place the capo closer to the second rather than the third fret? Has anyone tried a Bird of Paradise capo? John

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Gary T
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 03:26 PM

I put my Shubb (sp?) capo on the fret, with the edge of the capo exactly in line with the edge of the fret (the rest of the capo is "hanging over" on the headstock side of the fret). Works great.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: joeler
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 05:02 PM

Thanks a lot everybody. I'm glad to hear it's a universal problem. From the way you all talk about how important placement is, it answers the question of why sometimes the string is sharp and how sometimes it's ok. Thanks for your help. Lianfair: Good to hear from you old friend. Been busy getting ready to retire, written a lot of new songs, going nuts learning all this MIDI stuff, and, well, doing a lot of screwing off. See you all later. Joeler

Subject: RE: capo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 06:18 PM

John - I mean if you are placing the capo at the third fret, place it exactly where you finger should be; very close to the third, but actually above it, ie., in the gap between the second and third fret, but closest to the thrid fret.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 07:44 PM

The other thing that happens with capos is that the rubber or plastic on the capo gets dented iniby the strings if you always place it in exactly the same place. I find a Keyser best, and sometimes put it the other way round, which spreads the load, so to speak.

The really handy thing with a Keyser is that yoiu can move it around to different frets in the middle of a set -say if too many guitars join in and you want to move up and be playing where the sound isn't so crowded.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Mike Robertson
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 09:52 PM

The basic problem here is that that your bottom E string is fatter than any of your other strings. Even given a guitar with a great action and true frets you'll see this happen. Accept that some times you'll need to retune a little when you put on your capo if you need to stay in *absolute* tune with non-capoed instruments.

-mike-

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Bugsy
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 02:27 AM

Joeler - use it whichever way it suits you personally, but do use a shubb.

cheeres

Bugsy

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Auxiris
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 06:37 AM

Hello, everyone. Since most of you seem to favour Shubb capos, here's an idea that, while it won't help you REMEMBER to pick up your capo at the end of the night, will settle arguments about whose Shubb capo is whose. Simply this: have your name engraved on the metal bar of the capo.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: MichaelM
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 08:48 AM

My friend Tam also used to engrave his name on his capos. He befuddled his bandmate Grit Laskin (both of the Friends of Fiddler's Green) by swapping his labelled capos with Grits identical unlabelled Shubbs at one rehearsal, engraving the purloined capos with "Tam K." and suggesting at the next rehearsal that Grit had his capos. Grit was perpetually buying capos and finding that everything in his guitar case seemed to belong to Tam.

Michael

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 09:59 AM

I've tried nearly every capo that exists and have come back every time to the Shubb although I still sometimes use the Khyser in sessions for quick changes when I'm in a key like the dreaded DADGAD (am I still allowed to say that!). As several posts have already indicated it's important not to overtighten the capo and I find that it also helps to get quite close to if not actually on the fret. The Shubb definitely pushes the bass strings less out of tune. However, having said that, intonation on the guitar is something of a compromise at the best of times and use of a capo will never produce absolutely perfect results. Hope this helps.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Auxiris
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 10:21 AM

Well, so much for the engraving idea, though it works for me and might still work in musical cirles where Tam Kearney is NOT present. Would have thought that Grit would be sharper than that! Must be the varnish fumes. cheers, Auxiris

Subject: RE: capo question
From: willie-o is bill c.
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 11:15 AM

If I could remember (and find an engraver) that I have a problem with capo retention ANYTIME other than when I find one gone, I wouldn't have lost it in the first place.

IDing them is good though, I would just stick a bit of duct tape on in some odd spot....

Subject: RE: capo question
From: willie-o is bill c.
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 11:15 AM

If I could remember (and find an engraver) that I have a problem with capo retention ANYTIME other than when I find one gone, I wouldn't have lost it in the first place.

IDing them is good though, I would just stick a bit of duct tape on in some odd spot....

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 11:19 AM

Hi. I started collecting capos 25 years ago and have probably about 60 of them by now! (well some people collect stamps or butterflies) The earliest is from the late 1800s and is a pretty good design, but THEY ALL go sharp on the bass. I started doing something to solve that years ago and it still works today. I am FANATICAL about tuning, so I REALLY care. Cut a simple small "V" shaped notch where the Bass string touches the capo. This results in the capo not stretching that string as much, when it's tightened, therefore staying in tune. It works. Especially on a 12 string.
Although I have virtually every brand and model (for my eccentric collection) my working capos have been Dunlop "C clamps" for several years. They work very well and are cheap. Don't like the Keyzer's cause the tension can't be regulated.
Rick

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Auxiris
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 12:00 PM

I guess a bit of duct tape would work, though normally you can have them engraved at any shope that makes keys. If you're really in a hurry, I'd suggest a nail varnish rather than suct tape, though: it lasts longer.

cheers, Auxiris

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Marion
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 04:46 PM

In my opinion, the most important thing with capos (the kind where you "buckle" the end in between the sets of metal teeth, anyway) is to not leave them lying around on the floor if people are walking around without shoes.

Marion

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 06:32 PM

Marion, I have holes permanently imbedded in the soles of my feet from those.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Chris/Darwin
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 03:17 AM

I have had many combinations of guitar and capo over the years. I use a Shubb with my current guitar, which has a low action and quite shallow frets, so the strings do not stretch much. I find the instrument mostly stays in tune, and I rarely have to retune.

The other thing that is important is good stable tuners. When you put a capo on you are increasing the string tension. If one tuner gives a little then you are out of tune. You can check this by taking the capo off; if the out-of-tune string is still out, then one tuner has let go.

I have a 12 string, and have just about given up using a capo during a performance. The octave strings are invariably out. When you look at them you can see that having a thin string right next to a thick string results in the strings being stretched by differing amounts. Physics says they must go out!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Mudjack
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 07:30 AM

Shubb is my choice. I recently discovered that fret dressing can cure some capo to fret over/under tones. I thought my guiitar was dying and thanks to a good repairman, he gave it new life. It's called "set up". Just when I thought I knew everything there was to know about guitars. Har...He cleaned the groves at the nut and my B and E strings are bright again. He filed the wear grooves from my first five frets with the right kind of file, adjusted the truss rod with weight on the neck(simulating string tension) and my guitar was better than new. I learned a valuable lesson here. Take it to the right person and do this set up once a year.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: capo question
From:
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:48 AM

I got some complaints lately when I capoed the 3rd fret... is that a difficult key for other instruments...are there other places I should avoid... playing alone for too long... p.s.love my J.Paige black buckle capo...it sleeps at the nut so I can't loose it and it works like a dream and doesn't hurt to move it!Kendra

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:24 AM

I capo 3rd a lot myself... The band is learning how to play in Bb and F, and Cm... it's good practice for them...

As far as capos driving strings sharp, I also found that changing the string gauge can have an effect... Used to go out way more with Medium strings, and now that I'm on light, it's not so bad by half... Maybe try a lighter bass string?

;-)

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:51 AM

Chris/Darwin: I have the same trouble with my 12-string. A Catter (sorry-can't remember who; lost the thread ages ago) advised that the only sure cure is some v-e-r-y careful surgery with a craft knife to make grooves for the thicker strings. It works, but be prepared to spend an hour or so in trial-and-error till you get 'em right: the secret is do make a very small groove and then make it deeper by a gnat's pickin' finger at a time. Oh, and also be prepared to buy a new capo!

Steve

Subject: RE: capo question
From: GUEST,Lanfranc at the orifice
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM

I use Shubbs mostly, with the aforesaid tweak after fitting to let the bass strings "breathe". The best capos I ever used were nylon Heribas, which had a comb arrangement which kept the strings in tune. I still have one, but, since they seem to have disappeared from the market, I seldom take it out of the house.

A downside - Heribas give off a farting sound from the plastic ratchet that secures them if you don't fit or remove them carefully. Get's some funny looks when amplified!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:02 AM

They're damn near impossible to find, but my pet capo is the aluminum Wilkerson: light, fast and with a replaceable urethane pad for the string-contacting surface.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Jande
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:37 AM

After over twenty-five years of guitar playing, recently graduated from using those elastic and soft rubber capos to a kyser.

It seems to work well for my guitar which is a spanish classical(nylon strings). And I love being able to pinch it on the end of the guitar head when it's not in use.

My partner, however, doesn't like it and prefers his Fat rubber and elastic type for his ovation.

I've never seen a Shubb, so now I'm off to look 'm up on the web...

~ Jande

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM

Thanks Steve, for remembering the "groove" tip. It simply WORKS.

Rick

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Jande
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM

Can you change the Shubb with one hand, like the kyser?

~ Jande

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:41 AM

Rick--of course! My memory's not as it was (so I'm told, I wouldn't know). Yes. it took nerves of steel: at £15 a time, anyone would be nervous. But it did the trick.

Jande, you can, but not so easily. But you're a musician, so you're very dextrous with your fingers even on your left (right?) hand. Borrow one and try it. I use a Shubb on my 12-string (see above) and a Kyser on my 6-string.

Steve

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Jande
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

Okay... thanks, Steve!

~ Jande

Subject: RE: capo question
From: John Kidder
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:03 PM

The Heriba comb affair for a 12 string, for sure. Even the octave strings stay very close to pitch - does anyone know where one can find the little rubber sleeve that comes with the capo in the original packaging?

johnk

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM

Mister has a Shubb for our little classical guitar - it has a fat neck and the Shubb fits it better than the Kyser. For our other guitars, we both have Kysers. Now, Mister's Washburn can pretty much do no wrong. If it's in tune, it sounds good no matter what. My Alvarez, though, goes flat in the G-string when I capo. If I tune it up just a hair - and I mean Just A Hair - it seems to work pretty well.

Guitars can be moody like us gals, you know.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM

Capo's are an imperfect mechanism, an most guitar necks have imperfections as well. There are a few techniques to keep in mind when compensating for this.

One; it's easy to guess wrong about which string/s isoff when you capo, so you may end up making your guitar off if you're not careful - that is; you'll be in tuned with youself, but off with the rest of the world, and much worse off when you remove the capo - so you must stay accurate (to A 440, that is). Before you capo, be sure you're precisely in tune.

Two: place the capo carefully - just below the fret, squarely and without letting the strings get pulled to one side or the other. Try it a few times, watch carefully, learn to reduce the stress in the worong direction.

Three; learn which fret placements, and which strings are most likely to be off. I suggest using an electronic tuner while experimenting during practice at home ... know your guitar and you'll know how to fix it quickly and accurately on stage.

Four: Try to resolve intonation problems without adjusting the tuning with a capo, first. Again, with careful placement of capo, being sure you're in tune to start without the capo - and then if your still, for example th bass string/s is a bit sharp (and this is the most common complaint) rather then adjusting the tuning peg/s, try bending/stretching the string with the capo in place. Push down hard on the string straight down to the sound hole - it sonds a bit drastic, but it will actually pull the string from under the capo and lower the pitch - and probably when you remove the capo, you'll still be in tune.

Five; if all else fails, retune with an electronic tuner iwth the capop in place. Remember this is the most dratsic thing you can do, and may have you retuning significantly every time you mo the capo. But if you gotta, you gotta!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:42 PM

... seems I am repeating myself! I see I gave a very similar response to this thread almost two years ago!

I've actaully gota lot of experience with this capo placement. As a banjo player in a band that loves odd keys, and frequent changes ... I have learned the hard way about capo placement! The banjo is much more sensitive to capo placement then guitars because of the added variable of the drum head tension changes caused by capo placement. It is safe to say that you must retune every time you move your banjo capo (at least fine tune). I also retune my fifth string with each capo change rather then use a fifth string capo or spikes - so the drum head/tension change is even more dramatic. And finally, I change tunings some when we change keys (G or C tunings typically). Needless to say, banjo key/capo changes are a factor in our song selection - we don't want me fine tuning the banjo all night! I have found with the banjo, though - when the stage sound is good enough, that I prefer retuning by ear, because the other lpayer may be slightly off concert pitch, and if I tune strictly to an electrinic tuner we may have a problem. In this case, I tune to electronics, then "sweeten" to where my ear says everyone else is.

Finally, I remnd the audience that the banjo is meant to sound slightly out of tune!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:07 PM

Next capo question: How do I stop myself from screaming the next time someone pronounces it "coppo"?

Talk about being capo-retentive!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:22 PM

Anyone tried the newer "rolling" type capo? It has an hourglass shaped rubber back with springs that attach to a round cylindrical rubber piece in front which has a metal rod going through it. One of the springs unhooks from the rod for attaching and unattaching the capo from the guitar. The beauty of it is, you can roll it up and down the neck, even during the song if you have quick fingers. When you finish using it, you can just roll it back over the end nut onto the headstock. The springs are just the right tension so they don't pinch the strings sharp when it's behind the nut. It's great on guitars with a thick neck, but it leaves a little string buzz on my relatively thin-necked Taylor.

Just thought I'd toss that one out there.

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Fortunato
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM

Dick I lost my Wilkerson ages ago. Do you have any clues where to find them?

My two cents: The Kyser seems correctly tensioned for my J45 with light gauge strings. It requires no retuning normally when placed just above the fret. But this has been true only since the setup (John Warden) has made the intonation perfectly true up the neck, and degrades with the setup.

I use a Kyser designed for a classical guitar on my small parlor guitar, it fits the wider neck and the softer pad doesn't push the strings out of tune as the heavier Kysers do on that guitar. However, though the intonation is perfect up the neck, the 1st and second strings go slightly sharp.

Rick, thank you for the idea of 'notching' the 6th string position on the capo. I'll try it.

When performing I group songs by key as well as dynamics to minimize retuning.

Regards, Chance

Subject: RE: capo question
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:18 PM

Fortunato: John Pearse sells them, as well as replacement inserts. Sadly, they don't make one for a classical guitar.
http://www.jpstrings.com/braccess.htm

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Lanfranc
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:53 PM

This URL might be of interest:

http://w1.865.telia.com/~u86505074/capomuseum/index.htm#menu

Wish I could do clickies!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 03:46 PM

Yes, I use a Bird of Paradise capo. I bought it for several reasons: She was very pretty; it looks good on my antique Martins; she was very pretty; I can tweak it easily to adjust the various buzzes and sharping; she was very pretty! Seriously, I think they are very good on any low tension guitar. I doubt they'd work on a twelve string, but I could be wrong. (I was once and it was awful)! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Lanfranc
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 05:41 PM

My Bird of Paradise capo disintegrated!

One of its little plastic lugs sheared right off, and I've never seen them in the UK (I bought it in NY a few years back) Never thought to check if they had a "lifetime guarantee"!!

It was quite good while it lasted

Subject: RE: capo question
From: Lanfranc
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 06:48 PM

Just to say that the makers of the Bird of Paradise have offered to send me a replacement. I emailed them through the link in the above URL, and the President (of the Company!) himself responded almost immediately with the offer.

How about that for service!

Subject: RE: capo question
From: GUEST,texastoolman
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 02:38 AM

bar chords are for people who don't know how toe capos properly..........................tex

Subject: RE: capo question
From:
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 05:55 AM

My favorite is the Shubb. When pre-adjusted properly, I never have detuning problems.

My second choice is the Jim Dunlop "Adjust-O-Strap" (the simplest of the one with foot-puncturing teeth.) I haven't stepped on one yet. They tend to get forgotten in my shirt pocket and go through the washing machine. They survive this very well. (Knocking on wood). Speaking of stepping, I tend to step on finger and thumb picks all the time often with fatal damage (to them). I have stepped on the Shubb any number of times and it comes out unscathed (knocking again.)

I have a "Bird of Paradise" capo. I got it because way it operated seemed a good idea as well as because I liked its looks. I still think the idea behind it is good, but mine doesn't work very well. It doesn't want to smoothly close in on all the strings. One of the strings always seems a little "buzzy". It does tend to keep the tuning of the guitar. I might just have a bad one and I will try to email the company.

By the way, the guitar on which I use all these capos is a Martin 000-15S, which has a neck that joins at the 12th fret and a slightly wider fingerboard than other Martins. When I use a capo it is usually on the second fret.

For my LaPatrie Nylon, which has a classical fingerboard, I perfer the Dunlop Adjust-O-strap. They have a flat model.