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should folk music be called fake music

The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 03:22 AM
Joe Offer 09 Oct 14 - 03:46 AM
Hamish 09 Oct 14 - 04:06 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 14 - 04:09 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 04:39 AM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 04:50 AM
Musket 09 Oct 14 - 05:13 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 05:23 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 05:26 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 14 - 05:44 AM
Musket 09 Oct 14 - 05:47 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 05:54 AM
Musket 09 Oct 14 - 05:57 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 06:06 AM
Musket 09 Oct 14 - 06:18 AM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 06:34 AM
MartinRyan 09 Oct 14 - 06:37 AM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 06:42 AM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 06:43 AM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 06:49 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 06:55 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 14 - 07:14 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 14 - 07:16 AM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 07:21 AM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 07:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 14 - 07:32 AM
Jack Campin 09 Oct 14 - 07:34 AM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 07:41 AM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 09 Oct 14 - 07:50 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 14 - 07:59 AM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 08:07 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 08:10 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 08:14 AM
Jack Blandiver 09 Oct 14 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 09 Oct 14 - 08:31 AM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,henryp 09 Oct 14 - 09:34 AM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 10:17 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 10:32 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Oct 14 - 10:50 AM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 10:57 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Oct 14 - 11:05 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 11:35 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 11:39 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Oct 14 - 11:40 AM
GUEST 09 Oct 14 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 09 Oct 14 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrockker 09 Oct 14 - 12:04 PM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 12:46 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Oct 14 - 02:12 PM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 02:32 PM
Vic Smith 09 Oct 14 - 02:44 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Oct 14 - 02:51 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 14 - 03:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Oct 14 - 05:13 PM
The Sandman 09 Oct 14 - 06:59 PM
TheSnail 09 Oct 14 - 08:07 PM
Musket 10 Oct 14 - 02:45 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 14 - 06:46 AM
Vic Smith 10 Oct 14 - 07:49 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 10 Oct 14 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 14 - 10:14 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 14 - 10:30 AM
Musket 10 Oct 14 - 10:43 AM
Vic Smith 10 Oct 14 - 11:06 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 14 - 11:17 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 14 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Desi C 11 Oct 14 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 14 - 06:14 AM
Musket 11 Oct 14 - 06:48 AM
The Sandman 11 Oct 14 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 14 - 08:34 AM
Musket 11 Oct 14 - 01:04 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Oct 14 - 01:14 PM
The Sandman 11 Oct 14 - 01:21 PM
Musket 11 Oct 14 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 14 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Rahere 11 Oct 14 - 04:28 PM
Musket 11 Oct 14 - 04:54 PM
Vic Smith 12 Oct 14 - 06:49 AM
The Sandman 12 Oct 14 - 09:47 AM
The Sandman 12 Oct 14 - 10:11 AM
The Sandman 12 Oct 14 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 12 Oct 14 - 11:38 AM
Vic Smith 12 Oct 14 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 14 - 01:41 PM
The Sandman 12 Oct 14 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 12 Oct 14 - 03:32 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 14 - 03:42 PM
olddude 12 Oct 14 - 09:05 PM
The Sandman 13 Oct 14 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Oct 14 - 07:45 AM
Musket 13 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM
The Sandman 13 Oct 14 - 01:11 PM
Musket 13 Oct 14 - 01:50 PM
Ed T 13 Oct 14 - 03:51 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 14 - 04:39 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 14 - 04:49 PM
GUEST 13 Oct 14 - 05:20 PM
The Sandman 13 Oct 14 - 05:56 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 14 - 06:03 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 14 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,guest 13 Oct 14 - 07:46 PM
Don Firth 13 Oct 14 - 08:11 PM
The Sandman 14 Oct 14 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 14 - 04:23 AM
The Sandman 14 Oct 14 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 14 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Oct 14 - 05:16 AM
johncharles 14 Oct 14 - 05:33 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 14 - 07:20 AM
johncharles 14 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM
Musket 14 Oct 14 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 14 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Dick Miles 14 Oct 14 - 12:48 PM
Musket 14 Oct 14 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Dick Miles 14 Oct 14 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 14 - 01:28 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Oct 14 - 02:31 PM
Musket 14 Oct 14 - 02:38 PM
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Subject: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:22 AM

Is folk music an inadequate description?is fake music a better description?


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:46 AM

No, I think we should call folk music "Bill."
Why?
Because I like the name Bill.

Then we can rename this Website The Mudcat Cafe Bill Forum.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Hamish
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:06 AM

Sounds like you've had a bad experience, GSS. And/or too much to drink.

But I'm pretty sure you'll find that the only music that isn't fake is made by horses.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:09 AM

Bill? I'm more of a William fan myself, though I appreciate the Wilhelms and Guillaumes of this world, and have a fondness all the Wills, Billys, Willies, Liams, Willems & Wims, not to mention the Guillermos, Guglielmos, Guilhermes, and Gwilyms - and not forgetting the Billies, Willas, Wilhelminas, Twylas, Wilmas, Willows, Vilmas, Wildas, Wilonas, Willenes and Willettas. But - Bill will do. Which puts me in mind of this, which is as real a piece of Bill as any I've ever heard...

Laura Nyro - Wedding Bell Blues


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:39 AM

Anyhow, the assonantal semi-rhyming feeble pun is not even original. Dave Harker used it as the title for his more-than-somewhat far·from·brilliant book, Fakesong, to which I afforded '2 cheers from the ranks of Tuscany' in my Times review, exactly 30 years ago.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:50 AM

well now lets go towards the direction of A L Lloyd he apparantly did some master fakes, in fact his songs are the equivalent of Keatings artistic forgeries indistinguishable from the real thing, so a good reason for calling them fake songs?
mgm. please stop being a booby,"Anyhow, the assonantal semi-rhyming feeble pun is not even original". what relevance does lack of originality in alliteration have to do with it, the point is you and that other booby[awkward fellow], Jim Carroll, are unable to fight your corner about the definition of folk music, so you come on here in like a cross patch crabby crustacean.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:13 AM

Dunno. The only TV channel guaranteed to have something worth watching these days changed its name from UK Gold to Dave, on the basis everybody has a mate called Dave..

"Cross patch crabby crustacean..." Nice one Dick.

So long as we can carry on calling contemporary folk "folk" which of course it is.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:23 AM

Right. And call your glass cabinet a chair and sit on it while you're about it. Hope the shards cut your ɷ


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:26 AM

...and Dick, you better keep yours away from my lobster-claws!

〠·M·〠


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:44 AM

And yet Peter Bellamy spent much of his time treating folk as a medium for creative expression - an idiom indeed, rather than an theoretical perspective regarding non-idiomatic communal song adoption and adaptation. Peter Bellamy not folk? Any what about all those Jake Thackray* fans out there? Or most of the topics under discussion here on Mudcat, precious few of which have anything to do with folk in its purest, pedantic sense, rather one based on the pragmatics of usage which is the more - er - folkloric of the two wouldn't you say? Unless we stray into the murky realms of Meta-lore**?

* As a kid the very sight of JT on TV would have me hiding behind the sofa in a cold sweat; nothing on Dr Who was ever so terrifying! I heard a chap once calling himself Fake Thackray and the traumas came flooding back as I bid a hasty retreat to the bar.      

** Or the folklore of folklore. For example - how came it about that generations of us kids were taught that ring-a-roses was a reportage on the symptoms of the black death? And at one point did Lady Raglan's fantastic thesis about Green Men become entrenched as an orthodoxy in the popular consciousness? Similarly entrenched : a lot of notions regarding your common-or-garden Folk Song, as Harker strove to point out much as Galileo did with his notions of heliocentricity for which he's only lately been granted a Walter by the Vatican.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:47 AM

I wonder if Newcastle University does a taster course for people like Michael who doesn't understand what folk music is? OAP discount if you are lucky too...

King Canute had nothing on these two, Michael and Jim.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:54 AM

Well, that's a thoroughly appropriate backfiring would-be insult as ever was!

What King Canute did was to demonstrate to all around him that they were in grievous error, you fool! Don't you even know that!

As my late wife Valerie wrote in her novel Culture Shock (Duckworth 1988): "History has given Canute the wrong footnote". Rather well put, I always thought.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:57 AM

Yeah, but some of us prefer folklore, being interested in folk and all that.

Ha Ha Ha


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:06 AM

... and some of you, demonstrably, don't.

Oh we could go on like this for hours, eh? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:18 AM

Oh dear, I hope you got there in time...


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:34 AM

Is folk music an inadequate description?
No, although traditional music may convey the concept more clearly.
is fake music a better description?
No

Next thread, please.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:37 AM

Zzzzzzzzzzz.............


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:42 AM

Zzzzzzzzzzz.............


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:43 AM

Michael, on the subject of king cnut, i know you are old but presumably you were not there, so his intentions on your part are speculation.Vic wHy is fake music not a better description?after all many people are now saying Lloyd wrote fake songs.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:49 AM

Joe Offer -

"No, I think we should call folk music "Bill."
Why?
Because I like the name Bill."


I have an instrument called "Nelson".
Why?
Well, it's full name is "Nelson Mandola".


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:55 AM

Don't be silly, Dick. You obviously don't really know the story. Canute's flattering courtiers kept assuring him he had absolute power. So he said, "No I haven't. Come with me to the seashore and I'll show you." So he sat on the beach as the tide came in, and made his flattering courtiers stand all around him, & as the sea came in he shouted at it to 'keep back! keep back! keep back!' And only relented and let them go when they were all ankle-deep in water, saying to them "Now you see how absolute my powers are! so stop your stupid flattery."

So the idea, which you seem to be pursuing in re Jim & me, that Canute made a fool of himself by trying to hold back the tide, misses completely the point that he only pretended to attempt to do so, in order to demonstrate to the courtiers that he couldn't.

As Valerie said, "history has given him the wrong footnote". Obviously so, when fools like you can't even get the point of the story.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:14 AM

I had a Nelson Mandola once too - wonder if it's related?


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:16 AM

history has given him the wrong footnote

Canute's place in history is assured; it's folklore that's wrong-footnoted him.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:21 AM

no michael you re wrong there is absolutely no proof to your theory, you have accepted some propoganda that cannot be proved.it is you that is a gullible fool that believes history as it is taught is fact.fake dictionary defintions ..made up, do upmake presentable or specious,contrive out of poor material.
here are some examples, 3 score and ten a broadsheet that was greatly improved by anonymous people
gentle annie a sentimental baalad by stephen foster became an australian folk song, and in my opinion was improved.
next we come to the sad fact that nearly all folk or tradtional style songs to be accepted as tradtional style by the uk folk revival are limited in their chioce of melodies, using three or occasionally 4 modes, an exception being Goulders composotion Walrus and the carpenter., so they are faked or composed with a simple goal in mind to be accepted as trad style,
2 people on this forum reject that other newly composed songs that do not fit into this category are folk songs, so since one of the definitions of fake is to do up make presentable, specious [of good appearance or plausible, then fake is absolutely appropriate]for songs written in a tradtional style these songs are faked for a certain kind of market.,[ a part of the uk folk revival] and to appeal to a certain taste.to enable the performers to make money and sell cds etc to the uk folk revival.
MacColl started it all with the rules for his club and with writing songs in this melodic style and with an anti american back lash [unless the person was american, convenient for his residents paley and seeger], both of whom are very good performers, the problem with this attempt at identifying and creating a style is that it is limited musically to a few modes, hence i frequently hear several tunes being used over and over again, this applies to songs on around the hills of clare[ which is outside the uk] but closelty associated with culturally with the uk , so it is fair to say we never hear traditional style songs in english using the hijaz scale, and very rarely the locrian mode


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:24 AM

Jack Blandiver -
Galileo did with his notions of heliocentricity for which he's only lately been granted a Walter by the Vatican.

Why a "Walter"? Why not a "Bill"? After all, Joe Offer has pointed out that he likes that name.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:32 AM

Is there a Bill Pardon, Vic?


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:34 AM

how came it about that generations of us kids were taught that ring-a-roses was a reportage on the symptoms of the black death?

Not many generations. Snopes thinks this idea dates to a book by James Leasor, The Plague and the Fire (1961).


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:41 AM

Is there a Bill Pardon, Vic?
Oh yes.... and his middle name is Clinton. You can read all about Bill Clinton Pardon and the controversy he caused by clicking here.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:42 AM

next point, the songs we like to call folk songs are not the songs that most of the folk in the uk like to hear , so how can they be folk songs, tey are laughed at by the majority of british people, and even to some extent by irish people , who on occassions refer to their instrumental music as diddley music or even "its just one tune", in my opinion irish instrumental music is more varied chordally than english music , but that is not the opinion of at least half the irish people whop prefer country and irish


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:50 AM

......as long as we can agree to call rockabilly and punk rock 'real music'.........


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 07:59 AM

Not many generations. Snopes thinks this idea dates to a book by James Leasor, The Plague and the Fire (1961).

Well - I was born in 1961 and we were taught it as fact! I suppose in popular culture a generation is only three years or four years; and I still meet people today in education who are only too happy propagate the plague myth, just as many people believe the Green Man to be pagan.

There is folklore, there is fakelore; happily there is QI as well, who delight in pricking this sort of thing, like the old Camel and the Eye of the Needle and other myth-conceptions, which we might pass of as folklore if we're feeling generous.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:07 AM

......as long as we can agree to call rockabilly and punk rock 'real music'.........

That's fine, but what about the problem of fakeabilly and fake punk as implied in the opening post?

Vic Smith


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:10 AM

Not the least idea what you on about, Dick; which makes two of us. You completely miss the point of the Canute legend, so any other examples which you adduce of similar [alleged by you] misapprehensions become pointless. I am not going on about this. You have just missed the entire point of the story, that's all.

I sometimes wonder why you chose your nickname. Schweik was either an idiot or a devious deceiver using his apparent idiocy to his own advantage -- neither way a particularly admirable character: the apotheosis of the antihero. What make you choose it, I wonder?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:14 AM

Jack: Snopes talking nonsense. See the Opies' Ox Dict of Nursery Rhymes; and my Folk Review interview with them, July 1974, in which Peter Opie used to me the defining words that the plague interpretation of Ring o' Roses was "one of those pieces of folklore about folklore".

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:24 AM

one of those pieces of folklore about folklore

Meta-Lore. Like the Green Man. It's worth a study in itself.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:31 AM

fair do's Vic...

Though back in my youth, we were well aware of the distinction between
real punk and plastic punks / real teddy boys and plastic teds..



Plastic is a great word innit..

Who can forget the inundating wave of yuppie era 'plastic paddy' franchised Irish Pubs,
sweeping across the UK and Europe as far as Prague and beyond...

A lot of perfectly good musical instruments got ruined, screwed to those pub walls..


so... Plastic Folk...???


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 09:17 AM

yuppie era 'plastic paddy' franchised Irish Pubs

But the thing about these Irish pubs is that they are always so authentic. Let me give you an example:-
Here   is a photo of Tina and I taken in O'Neill's Irish Bar in St. Peter's Street, New Orleans.
Everything about the place - the huge illuminated fire & water fountain that you can see in the photo, the vast outdoor seating area in a sub-tropical garden, the tall black diva crooning sophisticated jazz ballads to grand piano accompaniment - all made us think how exactly typical this was of all the bars in Ireland that we have been in from Dungloe in the north to..... shall we say.... Ballydehob in the south.

Vic Smith


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 09:34 AM

We are the plastic generation.

The folks of today they would far sooner pay
For a thing that's been made out of plastic.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 10:17 AM

MGM of course you would not understand because you are the sort of person who accepts the establishment version of history or propoganda without question.IT IS YOU THAT MISSES THE POINT OF the myth ofCnut


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 10:32 AM

So expound it to me, Dick. No good just being assertive; let's hear your interpretation, and your assertion of what the 'point' is, based on the accepted versions of the legend:-

Canute demonstrates to his flattering courtiers that he has no control over the elements (the incoming tide)
····························Wikipedia

Your use of the term re Jim & me suggests that you accept the vulgar analogy of one who really thought that he could halt the tide; when that was not the point he was making at all.

Over to you...

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 10:50 AM

There's only one Cnut around here. It's the Cnut who could start an argument in an empty room.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 10:57 AM

The point is that neither of us know what actually happened its all just mythology..
Backwoodsman you must be referring to yourself.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:05 AM

Nope.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM

"The point is that neither of us know what actually happened its all just mythology"

HOW PATHETIC!

You are in resolutely point-missing mood today, Dick. We know it's all mythology.

The point is that you, and no-one else, adduced that myth in support of your arguments.

I asserted that this interpretation was based on an erroneous knowledge of the myth [WHICH YOU HAD INTRODUCED INTO THE ARGUMENT], and a misinterpretation of its symbolic significance.

You asserted that I had it wrong, so I invited you to demonstrate where I had the myth wrong THAT YOU HAD INTRODUCED INTO THE ARGUMENT; whereupon you now fall back on a "What does it matter, it's only a myth anyhow" escape-hatch.

Well, sorry, Dick; but that's more than somewhat feeble and pathetic on your part. I am surprised at you.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:35 AM

well Backwoodsman, that is precisely what you are trying to do, start an argument.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:39 AM

'The point is' {as you began your evasive and fatuous post}, that it doesn't matter "what actually happened". It is what the myth alleges to have happened, and how it is to be interpreted, that matters.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:40 AM

Funny thing is, Squeak, I thought someone else had already done that. I just passed a lighthearted comment.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:53 AM

This place just gets sillier and sillier.
No wonder so many have left.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:57 AM

I left......[ approx 12 months passing ]......... and came back.

Maybe they might too !!!???

The world carries on regardless.........


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrockker
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 12:04 PM

Those who's absence really leaves mudcat a much diminished place
are folks such as Ralph, Diane, and John who sadly can't come back.

At least some of those other missing mudcatters might eventually outgrow their hissy fits...


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 12:46 PM

From: MGM·Lion - PM
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:39 AM

"'The point is' {as you began your evasive and fatuous post}, that it doesn't matter "what actually happened". It is what the myth alleges to have happened, and how it is to be interpreted, that matters."
I have an opinion on the subject, it is different from yours however none of us can prove we are right, so it is pointless.
   as for back woodsman so called light hearted comment it was actually a piece of deliberate flaming and trolling, a classic case of the pot calling the kettle.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:12 PM

Whatever.

I was obviously right. And as for 'flaming and trolling', we have a saying here - "it takes one to know one", and you have plenty of form.

Now you're really making a Cnut of yourself, pick on another victim.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:32 PM

"Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 10:50 AM

There's only one Cnut around here. It's the Cnut who could start an argument in an empty room."
you started it


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:44 PM

Said Cnut to his people, "I'll bet.
If I sit here my feet will get wet.
Then in hundreds of years,
It'll all end of tears,
With those dumb fools on Mudcat upset."


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM

Cnut.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:51 PM

Oh, and GTFU.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:43 PM

"I have an opinion on the subject"
.,,.

So you keep telling us, Dick. But you are being peculoiarly cagy as to what it is.



So - Put up or...


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:13 PM

robert graves in his white goddess book maintains that the myth of diana has been widely misunderstood for centuries.

but i tend to think that may well be so, but it doesn't invalidate all the works of art and poems that were wrought - using a faulty understanding of the myth.

and isn't that true about Mac Coll - you've got to admire the creative energy, even if you don't buy all his opimions.

and to be honest that's what i love about folk clubs - its about people having a go at being creative. no matter what wacky ideas have inspired them to get up and do it.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:59 PM

"and to be honest that's what i love about folk clubs - its about people having a go at being creative. no matter what wacky ideas have inspired them to get up and do it."
exactly, home made music ,people making it rather than being passive consumers.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:07 PM

Vic Smith
But the thing about these Irish pubs is that they are always so authentic.

Just like the inglenook fireplace in The Central Club in Peacehaven.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 02:45 AM

I agree with the creativity angle. I reckon our librarian approach contributors would be the designers of "little boxes on the hillside" rather than the writer of the song.

I think MacColl was a creative genius who could also elevate many traditional songs to an entertainment level beyond their source. But he confused his romanticism with a world he claimed to hold a mirror to and completely misread many of the people he claimed to have empathy with. I interviewed him three times for a nationally syndicated hospital radio folk programme and each time left thinking "you should never meet your heros, they disappoint."

All music is fake. It is an abstract, which is why the absurd pigeon holing by those with limited thought on these threads is both sad and funny at the same time.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 06:46 AM

"All music is fake. It is an abstract, which is why the absurd pigeon holing by those with limited thought on these threads is both sad and funny at the same time."
Exactly, However it is these attitudes that have driven many fine performers of all genres of folk music to despair.
The problem is not the musicians,but those people who get themselves into a position of power and then try and start dictating how it should be done stylistically and who is going to get the gigs, these people with their narrow attitudes have attempted to ruin many peoples livelihoods.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 07:49 AM

people who get themselves into a position of power and then try and start dictating how it should be done stylistically and who is going to get the gigs,

Been closely involved in the folk scene for over 50 years and there are three things in this statement that I don't understand or can relate to:-

1] Who are these people in a position of power in the folk scene? Names please. How did they get into these positions of power?
2] Who is dictating how things should be done stylistically in the present scene? Names please. Yes, MacColl advised members of the Critics groups in the past, but that is historic and the influence was limited anyway and we surely don't need to go over that ground yet again. Comhaltas used to try to influence style with the way they conducted their competitions but Irish traditional music outgrew that approach decades ago.
3] Who dictates who is going to get the gigs? Names please. How do they achieve this dictitorial position and who listens to them?

I don't recognise the friendly co-operative folk scene that I inhabit from the quotation that heads this post.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM

in due course it might be few days or even a week i will pm you with details, i have more important things to do right now, but i will be in touch, bearing in mind that it will be a private message, that is not be repeated on a public forum.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM

"Comhaltas used to try to influence style with the way they conducted their competitions but Irish traditional music outgrew that approach decades ago."
I am afraid you are wrong, I live in Ireland you do not, their influence is very strong, irish tradtional music has not outgrown that approach, CCE competitions are still heavily attended, their marking system has not changed, comhaltas teachers still teach pupils with the intention of winning competitions
Vic you live in England, how can you be better informed than me, I see their teaching methods at very close quarters.I also attend CCE Fleadhs


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:00 AM

A niece who's just started Uni, competed a few times at eisteddfods.

Weird bloody things aren't they !!!???

On the one hand it's positive to encourage children's active participation in performing arts;
on the other - the competion aspect is bloody weird !!!

Once a year we had to tune into Welsh TV, fingers poised over the record button,
just in case her spot was broadcast.

As one child, or group of children, parade one after another,
performing exactly the same piece, in exactly the same rigid identical duplicated manner....

Then her beaming proud Aunty would become transfixed on the screen for a minute or 2.

"oooh look, she's on the telly !!!!"

How can folk culture have become reduced to a such regimented clone manufacturing process..???


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:14 AM

"a nationally syndicated hospital radio folk programme "
I am intrigued.
Do tell us more.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:30 AM

"Vic you live in England, how can you be better informed than me,"
Vic is right.
Yes - Comhaltas still has a following for competitions and it had the ear of the government as far as finances are concerned, but nowadays, that it is as far as it goes.
Since the beginning of the 2000. the music has taken off here, totally without, and often in spite of CCE influence.
ITMA, one of the finest archives of traditional music in the world, orperates without any input whatever without the input of Comhaltas, in fact, since it was established in 1987, C.C.E has been forced to clean up its act and put its own house in order, it has some way to go before it sorts out its own holdings
When the first Willie Clancy Summer School was mooted, CCE refused to be part of it unless competitions were included - the locals refused and went ahead to become the most successful and influential traditional music school in Ireland and encouraging many other similar ventures.
Nowadays, it is possible to attend schools, singing and music week-ends all over Ireland, without a glimpse of CCE or its policies - traditional music has 'taken its own feet, as they say over here.
Clare alone hosts The Willie Clancy Summer School, The West Clare Singing Festival, The Russell Family Festival, The Mrs Galvin Weekend, The Mrs Crotty Concertina Weekend, The Willie Keane weekend, the Feakle Traditional Music Festival, The Traditional Music and set Dancing Festival in Kilrush, the Ballyvaughan Singing weekeend, the Corofin Traitional Music Festival.... and several other events
CCE has 1 annual event - the annual competition based Fleadh Nua in Ennis.
Miltown Malbay hosted the County Fleadh a couple of years ago, a dismal, poorly attended affair.
Some years ago Cpmhaltas entered into a dispute with one of its own branches (again) which ended in the forcible eviction of people who had raised millions of euros to build new premises at Clontarf   
THE BATTLE OF CLONTARF
Comhaltas is clinging on by its fingernails to the power it once had.
It has long been referred to on the Irish scene as Comhaltas Interruptus
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:43 AM

No probs.

I used to do a folk show on a hospital radio station back in the '70s and early '80s. It included taking recording gear down to the local folk club, which was a large one with well known guest bookings most weeks. As hospital radio had a PRS waiver, even copyrighted music could be recorded and played.

Most acts were happy for their sets to be recorded and be interviewed. At the same time, we used to get tapes of a national god slot from both Christian Hospital Radio and Christian Broadcasting Fellowship. At different times, these both agreed to distribute my show to other hospital radio stations at home and abroad. Over 200 tapes went out each month at the height. (Steam Radio in Bulawayo seemed to know UK folk acts rather well....)

Err.. Thats it really. The sad bit is that most of it is lost. The masters were on 1/4" reel and have been subjected to "clearouts." I thought I had them all on cassette for personal use but the ex Mrs Musket can't find them. I thought I knew where they were recently and promised Bernard Wrigley a copy of a concert he did in 1982. Rather embarrassingly, they were a set of another local show, Bedpan Special, which lived up to its name.

Another link via the hospital radio is seeing why a retired CEO in manufacturing industry got interested in healthcare when I hung up my spurs. It wasn't just the folk slot. I was a member, trustee and bottle washer for many years.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:06 AM

in due course it might be few days or even a week i will pm you with details, i have more important things to do right now, but i will be in touch, bearing in mind that it will be a private message, that is not be repeated on a public forum.

Right. I will await your message with interest and will respect your desire the keep the contents to myself. Just one more question though that arises directly from your response -

If this is such a private matter that cannot be discussed on a public forum, then why did you allude to it on a public forum and word it in such a way that smacks of, to my mind anyway, some sort of conspiracy theory? It was phrased in a way that seemed to be inviting someone to challenge your words, which I did..... only to be told that the matter is private.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:17 AM

"CCE has 1 annual event - the annual competition based Fleadh Nua in Ennis."
Jim yet again has his facts totally and completely wrong , but whats new about that, this is the truth of the matter
   CCE, the annual all ireland FLEADH which was held in Sligo in 2014 , it has several annual regional fleadhs ,munster, coonaught, leinster, ulster, it also has annual fleadhs in most irish counties.
but that is not the end of the annual events
There are various stages to the competition. In Ireland there are county and provincial competitions leading to the All-Ireland Fleadh. In Britain there are regional, then national stages of qualification for the All-Ireland. North America has two regional qualifying Fleadh Cheoil. The Mid Atlantic Fleadh[1] covers the US eastern seaboard, eastern Canada and the Maritimes. The Midwest Fleadh[2] covers the rest of North America from Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta and Detroit to San Francisco.There are various stages to the competition. In Ireland there are county and provincial competitions leading to the All-Ireland Fleadh. In Britain there are regional, then national stages of qualification for the All-Ireland. North America has two regional qualifying Fleadh Cheoil. The Mid Atlantic Fleadh[1] covers the US eastern seaboard, eastern Canada and the Maritimes. The Midwest Fleadh[2] covers the rest of North America from Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta and Detroit to San Francisco.


The FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT regional fleadhs are well attended as is the national fleadh, county fleadhs are more variable ,but i have noticed and i am talking from my own experince that the kerry county fleadhs are better attended than the cork ones.
Jim is yet again trying to generalise from one particular poor county fleadh in Clare.
The largest fleadh to date was 2013 in Derry, an event which attracted 430,000 people, so much for CCE not having much influence, But the infLuence does not stop at the vast numbers of people attending the regional national and to a lesser extent county competitions, it can be seen on their website with their selected clips of irish music, in which regional style gets downgraded in favour of CCE HOMEGEONISED STYLE.
In CountyCork[ Irelands largest county] CCE also organise sessions with CCE members and CCE approved teachers influencing playing styles


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM

Vic, merely the fault of the medium the internet, and being in a hurry to post there is no conspiracy, however I will give you my views in due course.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:55 AM

"Nowadays, it is possible to attend schools, singing and music week-ends all over Ireland, without a glimpse of CCE or its policies - traditional music has 'taken its own feet, as they say over here."
   however, it may be possible etc, the truth is that CCE influence is still widespread, here in County Cork CCE are omnipresent in schools amd music events,   there is a festival here in Ballydehob, which has a strong CCE influence, several of the committee are CCE members, and there is are events that are heavily influenced by CCE, with stipulations in the programme about no busking all of which is reminscent of CCE.
Féile Átha Dá Chab – Irish Traditional Music Festival

Wide-ranging events also included an all star concert, session trails, music, song and dance workshops, a singing session, a Ceili and Sean Nós Dancing workshops.
The 6th annual Ballydehob Trad Festival was held in the village of Ballydehob, Co. Cork from 30th March to 1st April 2012 and was a feast of traditional Irish music and dance.
Famous musicians from both locally and farther afield came to the festival. There was a wide range of events including an all star concert; session trails; music, song and dance workshops; a singing session; a céilí and sean nós dancing workshops.
Ballydehobtradfestival.com


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 05:26 AM

WHY do you suggest it shoud be called Fake!? Surely Folk music is the least fake of genres?


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 06:14 AM

You have chosen to ignore everything I have said Dick
Comhaltas is a top-heavy bureaucracy and is recognised as such in Ireland - what success it has is due to its deliberately developed political clout and it has played little, if any part in the present up turn in Irish music - if anything it has hindered it by attempting to force the competition ethic into playing
It has a long standing record of expelling its own members and branches if they do not the the line.
One of the leading and most respected figures in Irish music, Breandan Breathnach, summed it up perfectly thirty years ago   
"It is an organisation with a great future behind it"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 06:48 AM

Competitive performance.

Only the feckin' Irish eh?

I prefer to enjoy music, not treat it as a field sport.

Desi. I believe the word "fake" was used in order to rip the piss out of those who wish to restrict the use of the word "folk" to mean whatever they say it is. Unfortunately, some of them (Eyup Jim!) change their definition about every fourth post on the adjacent thread.

😂


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 07:23 AM

Jim Carroll, I have presented facts, you have presented half truths.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 08:34 AM

"Unfortunately, some of them (Eyup Jim!) change their definition about every fourth post on the adjacent thread. "
No I haven't - you are making it up
"Jim Carroll, I have presented facts, you have presented half truths."
No I haven't - you are making it up - snap - two of a kind
You have had the facts about Comhaltas - challenge what have put up rather than denying them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:04 PM

How can we be two of a kind? I put people who can play a squeeze box like Dick on a sort of pedestal.

He lives the dream and puts his life into his music. Note, his music, not indexing and sorting the music of others. There are novelists and there are literature critics...

🔙🔜


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:14 PM

You should note that the best literary critics tend to be writers themselves -- T S Eliot, Henry James, Samuel Johnson... So don't try to get away with false dichotomies.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:21 PM

jim, you said
"Nowadays, it is possible to attend schools, singing and music week-ends all over Ireland, without a glimpse of CCE or its policies - traditional music has 'taken its own feet, as they say over here." a half truth, you also said"CCE has 1 annual event - the annual competition based Fleadh Nua in Ennis."
another lie, I have provided the information of how many annual events they ..CCE have. and it is not restricted to one. Iam not particularly fond of CCE, BUT TO PRETEND THAT THEY HAVE LITTLE INFLUENCE AND TO PUT THIS OUT AS A TRUTH SHOWS YOU ARE LIVING IN AN IVORY TOWER.or possibly CloudCuckooLand


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:25 PM

I thought false dichotomies were something women err...

You are too interested in reading what you wish to read to see what I put. Despite his mad dog approach to debate, Jim is indeed an asset to the genre. When you have quite finished, I was noting that.

Just because he reckons I hate the music I love dearly (for some weird reason) doesn't mean I don't recognise his endeavours.

Still doesn't make him a nice person. Still doesn't stop him making a fool of himself. Still doesn't stop you running alongside him shouting "Me too!!"

🕠. Isn't it time for your horlicks? Drinking it that is, not spouting it...


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 03:08 PM

"I have provided the information of how many annual events they ."
And I have stated yhe damage they have done with what influence they do have
I have also pointed out that they have had no influence whatever in the turnaround of the fortunes of Irish music - pretty widely accepted in Ireland.
While Comhaltas pushes the competitive aspect of traditional music it will continue to decline
This from its own website:
"Competitors from regions with qualifying rounds must first qualify at the regional level before competing in the championship round. In Ireland, for example, musicians must be among the prizewinners in their County and then Provincial Fleadh before heading to the final round at the All-Ireland.
At each level the competitor faces one or more Adjudicators, renowned experts in the performance and repertoire of Irish traditional music. Adjudicators make careful notes of each performance, which are then made available to the competitor after the event. Spectators also crowd the room, including friends, family, and well-wishers. At the end of the competition the adjudicator announces results, and often gives a few notes on what they were looking for in the performances."
No way to promote a love of the music.
This thread refers to "fake music" - there is nothing more fake than the pseudo-Celtic image that Comhaltas projects
IRISH DANCE COSTUME
Not to mention the wigs.
They were given millions to build a visitor's centre at Cashel - they ended up with a C.C,E. Disneyworld .
As far As singing goes, the favoured style for competitions is that of the trained singer.
A salutary tale
When Traveller, John Reilly - probably the most important carrier of ballads in Ireland, according to Bronson - was first recorded, he was found squatting in a derelict house in Boyle, Roscommon.
Tom Munnelly, concerned for his health, arranged with friends from the Goilín Club, to get John a series of bookings in order to raise a bit of money to feed and clothe him.
When they approached Comhaltas, they were refused by an official that they wouldn't book him because he "wasn't Sean Nós"
A couple of months later, Ireland's most important singer of ballads (Well Below the Valley and half a dozen other Child ballads), died of malnutrition in Boyle Hospital.
C.C.E's contribution to Irish Traditional singing.
"I thought false dichotomies were something women err.."
Can somebody keep that child under control please - we appear to have another stalker?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 04:28 PM

Comhaltas dates from 1951, and seems to have copied the Welsh Eisteddfod model without having the social background to keep it in context. The Welsh honour the winner without condemning those who don't, because there's only one winner amid a society of millions. It's turning that American argment on its head with some applied socialism, arguing that coming second makes you only the best of the losers means that you're actually the best of the majority, leaving the winner alone on his pedestal.

Anyway, is there a musician here without at least one fake book on his shelves of music? And for the rest of the shelves, performing exactly what the dots say is what MIDI systems do, and it's not music, so all music is to some extent different and therefore fake. Folk just takes the differences further.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 04:54 PM

I'll keep the child in order if the Paddies keep you under control. Sounds fair to me.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 06:49 AM

On 10 Oct 14 - 07:49 AM I posted a challenge to a statement that has been made on this thread asking three questions for explanation, justification and for the naming of names.

The reply was posted on 10 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM saying:-
in due course it might be few days or even a week i will pm you with details, i have more important things to do right now, but i will be in touch, bearing in mind that it will be a private message, that is not be repeated on a public forum.

This reply has now come and I respect the request not to disclose the details. However, I feel at liberty to reveal that it does not begin to answer my questions nor does it name the people that are being accused of malpractice.

10 Oct 14 - 11:06 AM I enquired why if this was a private matter, why it was alluded to on a public forum.

The reply came on 10 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM saying:-
Vic, merely the fault of the medium the internet, and being in a hurry to post there is no conspiracy,

If I am reading this correctly, it seems to indicate that fault does not lie with the writer who was "in a hurry to post" but with the internet for being such an immediate medium.
Does this mean that because the internet is fast that we do not have ant responsibility for what we post on it?


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 09:47 AM

no it means the internet has certain inadequacies as a medium of communication, lack of body langauge lack of vocal tone all of which can be misinterpreted. I gave you answers stylistically and named people who i believed were imposing styles.
Vic, you are not at liberty to do any such thing, why should I name names?
I gave you details and informed and named one organisation and named the organisation and the kind of clubs who i thought were imposing stylistic boundaries, however i will go further and name some more , but you might have to wait another week.
I am busy playing music and organising a festival, so you will just have to wait.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 10:11 AM

"the stylistic remark was aimed at comhaltas" an extract from my personal message,I have named one of the groups or organisations that are imposing styles, the others I have made pretty obvious but I will tell you in a little while, you will just have to keep waiting.
Vic, why are you erroneously trying to give the impression that i have not answered ANY of your questions, you have told a half truth., you should have said, Dick has named one organisation and given a pretty strong indication of who the others are.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 10:18 AM

Vic, you could have replied to me in a personal message instead you told a lie about me on a public forum, how can I trust you after that.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 11:38 AM

Forgive me if I'm wrong, GSS, but with this thread you seem to be suddenly, abruptly and arbitrarily reviving a decades old controversy, primarily initiated by Dave Harker's book 'Fakesong' (Open University Press, 1985 - note the date!).

What I would like to know is:

1. Why bring this up now?

2. What will we learn by discussing it now?

3. What more do you believe that there is to learn?

Just asking!


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 01:13 PM

Vic, you could have replied to me in a personal message instead you told a lie about me on a public forum, how can I trust you after that.

You have asked me not to reveal your reply. My reading of your reply is that you did not answer my questions nor did you name names. So unless you are prepared to make your PM public, we will have to leave it with me sticking to my account and you saying that I am not telling the truth.
I am prepared to let people judge from our past form on Mudcat who is likely to be telling the truth. Before we get into realms of further unreality. I will sign out here.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 01:41 PM

"I am prepared to let people judge from our past form on Mudcat"
I have to say that that though Vic tends to shoot from the hip, as I have found to my cost on occasion. he is one of the straightest and most dedicated individuals I have ever encountered on the folk scene
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 02:42 PM

I did name names, I named Comhaltas, how can you read that as a non answer?

Vic, you should have replied to me by personal message you should not have replied in public with an attempt to discredit me, why did you do that, do you have an agenda?
This is what i said that you took umbrage too,"The problem is not the musicians,but those people who get themselves into a position of power and then try and start dictating how it should be done stylistically and who is going to get the gigs, these people with their narrow attitudes have attempted to ruin many peoples livelihoods."
anybody else can pm me and i will name names, providing the personal message is kept private,
Vic you have lost any trust I had in you, you know you were wrong and you should have replied with a personal message you have shown me that I was right not to trust you., you owe me an apology.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:32 PM

Assuming this thread isn't just a wind-up, it's worth stating that the answer to the original question is clearly 'no'. Although Bert Lloyd did tinker with several songs (discussed here already at length), his 'improvements' represent a very small fraction of the traditional repertoire. And, even if you accept Harker's agenda and dodgy scholarship, he didn't actually live up to his catchy title by demonstrating substantial fakery of material. The Voice of the People CDs (and personal memories of individual traditional singers) are a useful antidote to this kind of nonsense.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:42 PM

See, I was right all along.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: olddude
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 09:05 PM

Well call me anything but don't call me later for dinner


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 03:27 AM

Vic, you have not answered my question why did you not reply by personal message
if you had, I would have added further names as well as CCE, I clearly stated Irish singers clubs most of whom who have rules about unaccompanied singing only, which is a stylistic restriction., this is not a problem for me, I can do unaccompanied evenings, in fact the Cork singers club have booked me at least five times, but it does exclude a lot of performers, that is the right of the club organiser, however it does not alter the fact it is a stylistic restriction AND EXCLUDES PERFORMERS
so I have now stated publicly as well as in a personal message who I am referring to.
Vic, you chose to not reply by personal message but to attempt to make out that I had not named who i was referring to,I consider that untrustworthy.
Jim Carroll, states that you were are hardworking and dedicated , sentiments I do not disagree with, but you have indicated to me that your decision not to reply by personal message means that anything further on the subject that I might say to you privately might at some point end up being posted on a public forum.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

"have rules about unaccompanied singing only, which is a stylistic restriction."
No it isn't - virtually all the finest singers in Ireland are unaccompanied and are stylishly superior to those who choose to accompany themselves.
At the present time, the repertoire being sung here is one that needs no accompaniment - the attitude by club organisers towards instrumentation has nothing to do with restricting style and has far more to do with making sure the music doesn't follow the same disastrous path that has been taken elsewhere.
If you have a point to make about Comhaltas, why not make it publicly instead of alluding to secret messages and slandering one of the most respected long-time stalwarts of the English folk scene - you must be doing your own career a power of good with the way you are behaving!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:45 AM

And.....100!


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM

So let's put it in Room 101


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:11 PM

if you exclude accompaniment it is a stylistic restriction.
I have not slandered anybody.
"No it isn't - virtually all the finest singers in Ireland are unaccompanied and are stylishly superior to those who choose to accompany themselves". quote from Jim Carroll
The above is your opinion, it is not a fact, I think that MANY of the unaccompanied singers in the Irish singers clubs are very good and some are excellent, I also think that many accompanied singers such as Christy Moore and Andy Irvine are also very good
to say one is better than the other is like so much that you say completely and utterly stupid and ridiculous, IT IS RATHER LIKE COMPARING A LEMON TO A PEACH.
THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT FRUITS BOTH OF WHICH ARE TASTY,BUT VERY DIFFERENT.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:50 PM

You are flogging a dead horse Dick. I like beer and my neighbour likes model railways. I'd have to ask Prof Carroll which is better than the other and why.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 03:51 PM

It was called folk music because the word faux would be a too hard to spell, especially by banjo faux?


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 04:39 PM

"if you exclude accompaniment it is a stylistic restriction."
If you impose accompaniment where it is not required it is an imposition
Accompaniment may be in various styles - it is not a style in itself
You do not call excluding a tuba from Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata stylistic imposition
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 04:49 PM

The above is your opinion, it is not a fact, "
No - it is a fact
Irish singing is basically unaccompanied - most of the modern singers of Irish traditional song do not use accompaniment.
The recognised stylists in the Irish singing tradition are the sean nós singers, Joe Heaney, Sean ac Donchada, Roisín al Safti,,,, are all unaccompabnied singers
Name a stylist that sings with accompaniment
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:20 PM

DICK.. just what is your problem


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 05:56 PM

The trouble with your argument jim is you are asserting that a style [irish singing] cannot be changed, When a tradition cannot evolve or change it stultifies.
next, Irish singers clubs do not just book irish singers they also book singers who sing from other traditions so the rule is then imposed on others than just singers of irish singing.
if i took your argument a bit further, it could be argued that the vast majority of irish unaccompanied singing was solo, therefore The Voice Squad, should not be booked because they are singing in harmony, this in my opinion would be totally ridiculous, but it is an extension of your argument.
I do not expect you to understand a perfectly logical point, because you are consistently illogical.
Ihave stated that there are many very good irish unaccopmpanied singers and also good accompanied singers such as Paul Brady were to be booked at an irish singers club would he be expected to sing unaccompanied and is it not possible that some of his fans might be disappointed not to hear his excellent guitar work.
Guest ,my problem is dealing with anonymous guest who are too cowardly to say who they are.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 06:03 PM

Dick's problem is that he wishes to impose his own tastes on the culture of another country
Paul Brady is as far from being a Sean Nos singer as you could possibly get
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:07 PM

More time, now Hugh Bonneville has said what he had to say on 'Dream' - wouldn't have missed it for the world, and certainly not this nonsense..
"Guest ,my problem is dealing with anonymous guest who are too cowardly to say who they are."
Some time you accused my of being rude to somebody - you took about twenty abusive and very personal postings to make that accusation and even threw a threat of violence in for good measure.
You have just called one of the stalwarts of the English folk scene a liar and demanded an apology - and denied that you have slandered anybody.
Now you are accusing a guest of being a coward for not posting under his real name.
Did your parents have any problems getting the vicar to accept 'Good Soldier Schweik' when you were being christened?
Maybe the Registry of Births, Marriages and Deaths hesitated when you changed your name from Captain Birdseye to your present one?
Irony isn't one of your strong points, is it?
But never mind eh, you have god on your side - and a fellow stalker - creepy, or what?
"You are flogging a dead horse Dick."
What a pair - two creepy and bullying morons in the same card game - snap!
You have my opinion on the reason why most clubs in Ireland do not encourage or book accompanied singers - as much as that may be inconvenient to a rising superstar such as yourself, that is the way it is - their decision, as far as I'm concerned, a wise one.
It's not for outsiders like us to impose policies on a scene that is not ours to challenge, especially when it is based on a folk scene that had the advantage of so many excellent field singers up to fairly recently
Accompaniment for Joe Heaney, or Mary Anne Carolan or Elizebath Cronin or Tom Lenihan or Maggie Murphy or Sara Makem or Eddie Butcher or Darrach O' Cathain or Nioclás Tobín or the Keane sisters or Tom Costello or Geordie Hanna or John Reilly...... songs - don't think so really!      
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:46 PM

The only thing to check on - if you belive you are in an authentic Irish - theme pub, is, is the (male) shit-house-seat missing ?. They always seem to be in all the countries I have visited


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 08:11 PM

Is this thread about anything, or is it just a complete waste of bandwidth?

Just curious....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 03:57 AM

I have been regularly booked at The Cork singers club   and enjoy doing the occassional completely unaccompanied singing gig.It is not a problem for me at all. I was asked to give examples of stylistic exclusion. I did so, I mentioned CCE, and unaccompanied singers clubs.
My point is that it is an example of stylistic exclusion.
I am not trying to impose anything on anyones culture, that is ridiculous, I am hardly in a position to do so., neither is it my desire to do so,
it does not affect me or my livelihood as I am able to do unaccompanied singing, furthermore I enjoy doing an evening of unaccompanied singing.I would not have returned to the Cork singers club five times if did not enjoy singing there and listening to the other singers, I also turned up to see Ken Wilson do a gig there which was a great gig. and the general standard of singing was high in the club, it was a smashing evening.
   It does affect other performers who do rely upon accompaniment., it means they either have to perform unaccompanied or are excluded from doing a gig,these are the unaccompanied singers clubs rules they are not my opinion but a fact.
Every club organiser has that right to run a club the way they want, I do not have any problem with that and I am personally quite happy to do an evening of unaccompanied singing but it does not alter the fact that by its very nature it excludes accompaniment,and therefore is stylistically exclusive, that is a fact.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:23 AM

Around here they tend to discourage bodhrans because of the effect they have on the music that is played here - that is not the type of music those involved in sessions go in for.
That is not stylish restriction, in fact, the opposite.
If the bodhran were to become part of the music scene the nature of the music would change - the bodhran would have imposed its own sound onto a session largely made up of flutes, fiddles and concertinas.
The same goes for accompanied singing - only more so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:29 AM

whether it is a good thing or bad thing it is still stylistic restriction, it has nothing to do with the instrument but the performance.
most musicians will not exclude a bodhran player who knows the music listens and accompaniesand is sympathetic to ther melody players
excluding an instrument before it is played is pejudice [prejudging]


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 04:42 AM

"whether it is a good thing or bad thing it is still stylistic restriction, it has nothing to do with the instrument but the performance."
NO IT IS NOT - it is an artistic decision to present one type of music rather than another.
It is no more a stylistic restriction that is the Royal Opera House not putting on Lady Gaga concerts - that is not the music they wish to promote.
It is certainly not a prejudice, most people love instrumental singing of one form or another - in its place.
The clubs here has decided that Irish traditional singing does not need accompaniment and has refused to have it imposed on their sessions - I go along with that and the sooner you stop singing "I'll sing it mY Way' the sooner you will understand that fact
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 05:16 AM

This is an odd thread, to say the least! GSS suddenly and abruptly revives a decades old controversy - for no particularly good reason, as far as I can see. Then he engages in long drawn-out arguments with a couple of other people - arguments which seem to have little connection with the thread's title. Most peculiar!


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 05:33 AM

Alas poor Katy. Gone.
john


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 07:20 AM

Yes, what happened to Katy's post?


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM

I suspect that in 15 lines Katy managed 13 breaches of netiquette. It must be some sort of record. Go Girl!
john


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 11:35 AM

"Irish singing is basically unaccompanied."

Best tell Planxty to shut the fuck up then 😹

Unaccompanied is basic, I'll grant you that.... Even in Ireland. Did you hear Boyzone on Gay Byrne when their foldback failed and they couldn't hear their backing track? 🙀

Is Jim making it up as he goes on? Still, if he were right, it'd be a way of dealing with the plastic Paddies in Templebar screaming out Galway Girl two yards from you when you want to have a pint in peace... Tenor banjos and bodhrans can sound lovely at the right distance...


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:14 PM

"Best tell Planxty to shut the fuck up then"
Irish traditional singing is basically unaccompanied, as is its English counterpart; there is no proof that it has ever been otherwise.
The English revival has introduced instrumental accompaniment with a degree of success (sometimes)
Irish bands have taken from the tradition and made it something else by more or less abandoning traditional styles, but by and large, the singing here remains unaccompanied.
The only ones here to have suggested that anybody should "shut up" are you morons who have constantly sneered at those who use traditional styles and repertoire.
Why do you go out of your way to be as unpleasant as you obviously are and as persistently dishonest in deliberately distorting what others have to say – you can't be that insecure, surely?
"the plastic Paddies in Templebar"
Your statements get more and more racist very time you post – do I detect a Nuemberg rally in the offing?
Stop behaving like a thug and trying to bully people into silence, you moron – you're as unstable as the Skibbereen Stalker, it really doesn't impress and makes you look somewhat childish
Keep your toys in the pram or I shall take them off you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:48 PM

Hoy at Anchor Nov 11 Dick Miles (£5)The Royal British Legion
7/9 Northview Drive, Westcliff-on-Sea, SS0 9NG
Faversham Folk club. NOV 12, Chimney Boy, Preston Street.
NOV13 Maidenhead Folk Club
Venue; The 'New Inn', Farm Road, Maidenhead.
Nov 14 Seaford folk club Address:
Royal British Legion, Claremont road seaford
NOV 17. SunInn Stockton Folk Club Stockton.
NOV 20 Stanford Folk at the Drum
NOV21 Bury St Edmunds, Milkmaid Folk Club


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:49 PM

Err.. No.

Lack of instruments is not rejection of them. as they became more available, they were taken up with enthusiasm.

You should be more specific which part of history your reenactment hobby covers.

I'm racist?

😮

Err.. You're racist.

💤


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 01:23 PM

!Irish traditional singing is basically unaccompanied, as is its English counterpart; there is no proof that it has ever been otherwise."
oh, you have forgotten Margaret Barry, Pecker Dunne, Luke Kelly,Nic Jones Martin Carthy, Bob Roberts.
MargaretBarry, Pecker Dunne were Irish traditional singers who used accompaniment, Bob Roberts was an English trad singer who used accompaniment, Davy Stewart was a Scots trad singer who used accompaniment.
anyway the argument that you are trying to use "that trad singers were always unaccompanied so it must not change" is a classic example of not allowing a tradition to evolve,
Unless traditions evolve and change and grow they stultify and eventually wither, The nature of a healthy tradition is one that allows evolvement and change.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 01:28 PM

" they were taken up with enthusiasm"
Mainly by the bands - not a lot of enthusiasm elsewhere - that's what dick is wingeing about
"You should be more specific which part of history your reenactment hobby covers"
You should swot up on what you are talking about before you try to bully the rest of us into silence
"I'm racist"
I've just said that, so has one of my Diddycoy friends
"You're racist."
No I'm not but the fact that you have to lie about it indicated that you're running short on invective
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 02:31 PM

Stop feeding the trolls.


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Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 02:38 PM

I'm not feeding it. I'm ensuring the troll's revision of history isn't taken at face value by others without question.

I didn't think you called them diddycoys Jim? You must know some of the Doncaster lot.. Apparently where you live, it's considered a racist remark, (mind you, not by any reliable witness, and I've lived amongst our Paddy brethren myself. I still have a place I rent out in Blackrock for that matter. All that diddly doo music, it was a nice change to get back to Blighty and hear unaccompanied for a change.

(Laughter emoticons, can't be arsed to HTML them.)


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