should folk music be called fake music

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 12:46 PM

From: MGM·Lion - PM
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 11:39 AM

"'The point is' {as you began your evasive and fatuous post}, that it doesn't matter "what actually happened". It is what the myth alleges to have happened, and how it is to be interpreted, that matters."
I have an opinion on the subject, it is different from yours however none of us can prove we are right, so it is pointless.
   as for back woodsman so called light hearted comment it was actually a piece of deliberate flaming and trolling, a classic case of the pot calling the kettle.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:12 PM

Whatever.

I was obviously right. And as for 'flaming and trolling', we have a saying here - "it takes one to know one", and you have plenty of form.

Now you're really making a Cnut of yourself, pick on another victim.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:32 PM

"Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 10:50 AM

There's only one Cnut around here. It's the Cnut who could start an argument in an empty room."
you started it

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:44 PM

Said Cnut to his people, "I'll bet.
If I sit here my feet will get wet.
Then in hundreds of years,
It'll all end of tears,
With those dumb fools on Mudcat upset."

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM

Cnut.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:51 PM

Oh, and GTFU.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:43 PM

"I have an opinion on the subject"
.,,.

So you keep telling us, Dick. But you are being peculoiarly cagy as to what it is.



So - Put up or...

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:13 PM

robert graves in his white goddess book maintains that the myth of diana has been widely misunderstood for centuries.

but i tend to think that may well be so, but it doesn't invalidate all the works of art and poems that were wrought - using a faulty understanding of the myth.

and isn't that true about Mac Coll - you've got to admire the creative energy, even if you don't buy all his opimions.

and to be honest that's what i love about folk clubs - its about people having a go at being creative. no matter what wacky ideas have inspired them to get up and do it.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:59 PM

"and to be honest that's what i love about folk clubs - its about people having a go at being creative. no matter what wacky ideas have inspired them to get up and do it."
exactly, home made music ,people making it rather than being passive consumers.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 08:07 PM

Vic Smith
But the thing about these Irish pubs is that they are always so authentic.

Just like the inglenook fireplace in The Central Club in Peacehaven.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 02:45 AM

I agree with the creativity angle. I reckon our librarian approach contributors would be the designers of "little boxes on the hillside" rather than the writer of the song.

I think MacColl was a creative genius who could also elevate many traditional songs to an entertainment level beyond their source. But he confused his romanticism with a world he claimed to hold a mirror to and completely misread many of the people he claimed to have empathy with. I interviewed him three times for a nationally syndicated hospital radio folk programme and each time left thinking "you should never meet your heros, they disappoint."

All music is fake. It is an abstract, which is why the absurd pigeon holing by those with limited thought on these threads is both sad and funny at the same time.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 06:46 AM

"All music is fake. It is an abstract, which is why the absurd pigeon holing by those with limited thought on these threads is both sad and funny at the same time."
Exactly, However it is these attitudes that have driven many fine performers of all genres of folk music to despair.
The problem is not the musicians,but those people who get themselves into a position of power and then try and start dictating how it should be done stylistically and who is going to get the gigs, these people with their narrow attitudes have attempted to ruin many peoples livelihoods.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 07:49 AM

people who get themselves into a position of power and then try and start dictating how it should be done stylistically and who is going to get the gigs,

Been closely involved in the folk scene for over 50 years and there are three things in this statement that I don't understand or can relate to:-

1] Who are these people in a position of power in the folk scene? Names please. How did they get into these positions of power?
2] Who is dictating how things should be done stylistically in the present scene? Names please. Yes, MacColl advised members of the Critics groups in the past, but that is historic and the influence was limited anyway and we surely don't need to go over that ground yet again. Comhaltas used to try to influence style with the way they conducted their competitions but Irish traditional music outgrew that approach decades ago.
3] Who dictates who is going to get the gigs? Names please. How do they achieve this dictitorial position and who listens to them?

I don't recognise the friendly co-operative folk scene that I inhabit from the quotation that heads this post.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM

in due course it might be few days or even a week i will pm you with details, i have more important things to do right now, but i will be in touch, bearing in mind that it will be a private message, that is not be repeated on a public forum.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM

"Comhaltas used to try to influence style with the way they conducted their competitions but Irish traditional music outgrew that approach decades ago."
I am afraid you are wrong, I live in Ireland you do not, their influence is very strong, irish tradtional music has not outgrown that approach, CCE competitions are still heavily attended, their marking system has not changed, comhaltas teachers still teach pupils with the intention of winning competitions
Vic you live in England, how can you be better informed than me, I see their teaching methods at very close quarters.I also attend CCE Fleadhs

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:00 AM

A niece who's just started Uni, competed a few times at eisteddfods.

Weird bloody things aren't they !!!???

On the one hand it's positive to encourage children's active participation in performing arts;
on the other - the competion aspect is bloody weird !!!

Once a year we had to tune into Welsh TV, fingers poised over the record button,
just in case her spot was broadcast.

As one child, or group of children, parade one after another,
performing exactly the same piece, in exactly the same rigid identical duplicated manner....

Then her beaming proud Aunty would become transfixed on the screen for a minute or 2.

"oooh look, she's on the telly !!!!"

How can folk culture have become reduced to a such regimented clone manufacturing process..???

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:14 AM

"a nationally syndicated hospital radio folk programme "
I am intrigued.
Do tell us more.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:30 AM

"Vic you live in England, how can you be better informed than me,"
Vic is right.
Yes - Comhaltas still has a following for competitions and it had the ear of the government as far as finances are concerned, but nowadays, that it is as far as it goes.
Since the beginning of the 2000. the music has taken off here, totally without, and often in spite of CCE influence.
ITMA, one of the finest archives of traditional music in the world, orperates without any input whatever without the input of Comhaltas, in fact, since it was established in 1987, C.C.E has been forced to clean up its act and put its own house in order, it has some way to go before it sorts out its own holdings
When the first Willie Clancy Summer School was mooted, CCE refused to be part of it unless competitions were included - the locals refused and went ahead to become the most successful and influential traditional music school in Ireland and encouraging many other similar ventures.
Nowadays, it is possible to attend schools, singing and music week-ends all over Ireland, without a glimpse of CCE or its policies - traditional music has 'taken its own feet, as they say over here.
Clare alone hosts The Willie Clancy Summer School, The West Clare Singing Festival, The Russell Family Festival, The Mrs Galvin Weekend, The Mrs Crotty Concertina Weekend, The Willie Keane weekend, the Feakle Traditional Music Festival, The Traditional Music and set Dancing Festival in Kilrush, the Ballyvaughan Singing weekeend, the Corofin Traitional Music Festival.... and several other events
CCE has 1 annual event - the annual competition based Fleadh Nua in Ennis.
Miltown Malbay hosted the County Fleadh a couple of years ago, a dismal, poorly attended affair.
Some years ago Cpmhaltas entered into a dispute with one of its own branches (again) which ended in the forcible eviction of people who had raised millions of euros to build new premises at Clontarf   
THE BATTLE OF CLONTARF
Comhaltas is clinging on by its fingernails to the power it once had.
It has long been referred to on the Irish scene as Comhaltas Interruptus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 10:43 AM

No probs.

I used to do a folk show on a hospital radio station back in the '70s and early '80s. It included taking recording gear down to the local folk club, which was a large one with well known guest bookings most weeks. As hospital radio had a PRS waiver, even copyrighted music could be recorded and played.

Most acts were happy for their sets to be recorded and be interviewed. At the same time, we used to get tapes of a national god slot from both Christian Hospital Radio and Christian Broadcasting Fellowship. At different times, these both agreed to distribute my show to other hospital radio stations at home and abroad. Over 200 tapes went out each month at the height. (Steam Radio in Bulawayo seemed to know UK folk acts rather well....)

Err.. Thats it really. The sad bit is that most of it is lost. The masters were on 1/4" reel and have been subjected to "clearouts." I thought I had them all on cassette for personal use but the ex Mrs Musket can't find them. I thought I knew where they were recently and promised Bernard Wrigley a copy of a concert he did in 1982. Rather embarrassingly, they were a set of another local show, Bedpan Special, which lived up to its name.

Another link via the hospital radio is seeing why a retired CEO in manufacturing industry got interested in healthcare when I hung up my spurs. It wasn't just the folk slot. I was a member, trustee and bottle washer for many years.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:06 AM

in due course it might be few days or even a week i will pm you with details, i have more important things to do right now, but i will be in touch, bearing in mind that it will be a private message, that is not be repeated on a public forum.

Right. I will await your message with interest and will respect your desire the keep the contents to myself. Just one more question though that arises directly from your response -

If this is such a private matter that cannot be discussed on a public forum, then why did you allude to it on a public forum and word it in such a way that smacks of, to my mind anyway, some sort of conspiracy theory? It was phrased in a way that seemed to be inviting someone to challenge your words, which I did..... only to be told that the matter is private.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:17 AM

"CCE has 1 annual event - the annual competition based Fleadh Nua in Ennis."
Jim yet again has his facts totally and completely wrong , but whats new about that, this is the truth of the matter
   CCE, the annual all ireland FLEADH which was held in Sligo in 2014 , it has several annual regional fleadhs ,munster, coonaught, leinster, ulster, it also has annual fleadhs in most irish counties.
but that is not the end of the annual events
There are various stages to the competition. In Ireland there are county and provincial competitions leading to the All-Ireland Fleadh. In Britain there are regional, then national stages of qualification for the All-Ireland. North America has two regional qualifying Fleadh Cheoil. The Mid Atlantic Fleadh[1] covers the US eastern seaboard, eastern Canada and the Maritimes. The Midwest Fleadh[2] covers the rest of North America from Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta and Detroit to San Francisco.There are various stages to the competition. In Ireland there are county and provincial competitions leading to the All-Ireland Fleadh. In Britain there are regional, then national stages of qualification for the All-Ireland. North America has two regional qualifying Fleadh Cheoil. The Mid Atlantic Fleadh[1] covers the US eastern seaboard, eastern Canada and the Maritimes. The Midwest Fleadh[2] covers the rest of North America from Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta and Detroit to San Francisco.


The FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT regional fleadhs are well attended as is the national fleadh, county fleadhs are more variable ,but i have noticed and i am talking from my own experince that the kerry county fleadhs are better attended than the cork ones.
Jim is yet again trying to generalise from one particular poor county fleadh in Clare.
The largest fleadh to date was 2013 in Derry, an event which attracted 430,000 people, so much for CCE not having much influence, But the infLuence does not stop at the vast numbers of people attending the regional national and to a lesser extent county competitions, it can be seen on their website with their selected clips of irish music, in which regional style gets downgraded in favour of CCE HOMEGEONISED STYLE.
In CountyCork[ Irelands largest county] CCE also organise sessions with CCE members and CCE approved teachers influencing playing styles

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM

Vic, merely the fault of the medium the internet, and being in a hurry to post there is no conspiracy, however I will give you my views in due course.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 14 - 11:55 AM

"Nowadays, it is possible to attend schools, singing and music week-ends all over Ireland, without a glimpse of CCE or its policies - traditional music has 'taken its own feet, as they say over here."
   however, it may be possible etc, the truth is that CCE influence is still widespread, here in County Cork CCE are omnipresent in schools amd music events,   there is a festival here in Ballydehob, which has a strong CCE influence, several of the committee are CCE members, and there is are events that are heavily influenced by CCE, with stipulations in the programme about no busking all of which is reminscent of CCE.
Féile Átha Dá Chab – Irish Traditional Music Festival

Wide-ranging events also included an all star concert, session trails, music, song and dance workshops, a singing session, a Ceili and Sean Nós Dancing workshops.
The 6th annual Ballydehob Trad Festival was held in the village of Ballydehob, Co. Cork from 30th March to 1st April 2012 and was a feast of traditional Irish music and dance.
Famous musicians from both locally and farther afield came to the festival. There was a wide range of events including an all star concert; session trails; music, song and dance workshops; a singing session; a céilí and sean nós dancing workshops.
Ballydehobtradfestival.com

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 05:26 AM

WHY do you suggest it shoud be called Fake!? Surely Folk music is the least fake of genres?

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 06:14 AM

You have chosen to ignore everything I have said Dick
Comhaltas is a top-heavy bureaucracy and is recognised as such in Ireland - what success it has is due to its deliberately developed political clout and it has played little, if any part in the present up turn in Irish music - if anything it has hindered it by attempting to force the competition ethic into playing
It has a long standing record of expelling its own members and branches if they do not the the line.
One of the leading and most respected figures in Irish music, Breandan Breathnach, summed it up perfectly thirty years ago   
"It is an organisation with a great future behind it"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 06:48 AM

Competitive performance.

Only the feckin' Irish eh?

I prefer to enjoy music, not treat it as a field sport.

Desi. I believe the word "fake" was used in order to rip the piss out of those who wish to restrict the use of the word "folk" to mean whatever they say it is. Unfortunately, some of them (Eyup Jim!) change their definition about every fourth post on the adjacent thread.

😂

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 07:23 AM

Jim Carroll, I have presented facts, you have presented half truths.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 08:34 AM

"Unfortunately, some of them (Eyup Jim!) change their definition about every fourth post on the adjacent thread. "
No I haven't - you are making it up
"Jim Carroll, I have presented facts, you have presented half truths."
No I haven't - you are making it up - snap - two of a kind
You have had the facts about Comhaltas - challenge what have put up rather than denying them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:04 PM

How can we be two of a kind? I put people who can play a squeeze box like Dick on a sort of pedestal.

He lives the dream and puts his life into his music. Note, his music, not indexing and sorting the music of others. There are novelists and there are literature critics...

🔙🔜

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:14 PM

You should note that the best literary critics tend to be writers themselves -- T S Eliot, Henry James, Samuel Johnson... So don't try to get away with false dichotomies.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:21 PM

jim, you said
"Nowadays, it is possible to attend schools, singing and music week-ends all over Ireland, without a glimpse of CCE or its policies - traditional music has 'taken its own feet, as they say over here." a half truth, you also said"CCE has 1 annual event - the annual competition based Fleadh Nua in Ennis."
another lie, I have provided the information of how many annual events they ..CCE have. and it is not restricted to one. Iam not particularly fond of CCE, BUT TO PRETEND THAT THEY HAVE LITTLE INFLUENCE AND TO PUT THIS OUT AS A TRUTH SHOWS YOU ARE LIVING IN AN IVORY TOWER.or possibly CloudCuckooLand

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 01:25 PM

I thought false dichotomies were something women err...

You are too interested in reading what you wish to read to see what I put. Despite his mad dog approach to debate, Jim is indeed an asset to the genre. When you have quite finished, I was noting that.

Just because he reckons I hate the music I love dearly (for some weird reason) doesn't mean I don't recognise his endeavours.

Still doesn't make him a nice person. Still doesn't stop him making a fool of himself. Still doesn't stop you running alongside him shouting "Me too!!"

🕠. Isn't it time for your horlicks? Drinking it that is, not spouting it...

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 03:08 PM

"I have provided the information of how many annual events they ."
And I have stated yhe damage they have done with what influence they do have
I have also pointed out that they have had no influence whatever in the turnaround of the fortunes of Irish music - pretty widely accepted in Ireland.
While Comhaltas pushes the competitive aspect of traditional music it will continue to decline
This from its own website:
"Competitors from regions with qualifying rounds must first qualify at the regional level before competing in the championship round. In Ireland, for example, musicians must be among the prizewinners in their County and then Provincial Fleadh before heading to the final round at the All-Ireland.
At each level the competitor faces one or more Adjudicators, renowned experts in the performance and repertoire of Irish traditional music. Adjudicators make careful notes of each performance, which are then made available to the competitor after the event. Spectators also crowd the room, including friends, family, and well-wishers. At the end of the competition the adjudicator announces results, and often gives a few notes on what they were looking for in the performances."
No way to promote a love of the music.
This thread refers to "fake music" - there is nothing more fake than the pseudo-Celtic image that Comhaltas projects
IRISH DANCE COSTUME
Not to mention the wigs.
They were given millions to build a visitor's centre at Cashel - they ended up with a C.C,E. Disneyworld .
As far As singing goes, the favoured style for competitions is that of the trained singer.
A salutary tale
When Traveller, John Reilly - probably the most important carrier of ballads in Ireland, according to Bronson - was first recorded, he was found squatting in a derelict house in Boyle, Roscommon.
Tom Munnelly, concerned for his health, arranged with friends from the Goilín Club, to get John a series of bookings in order to raise a bit of money to feed and clothe him.
When they approached Comhaltas, they were refused by an official that they wouldn't book him because he "wasn't Sean Nós"
A couple of months later, Ireland's most important singer of ballads (Well Below the Valley and half a dozen other Child ballads), died of malnutrition in Boyle Hospital.
C.C.E's contribution to Irish Traditional singing.
"I thought false dichotomies were something women err.."
Can somebody keep that child under control please - we appear to have another stalker?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 04:28 PM

Comhaltas dates from 1951, and seems to have copied the Welsh Eisteddfod model without having the social background to keep it in context. The Welsh honour the winner without condemning those who don't, because there's only one winner amid a society of millions. It's turning that American argment on its head with some applied socialism, arguing that coming second makes you only the best of the losers means that you're actually the best of the majority, leaving the winner alone on his pedestal.

Anyway, is there a musician here without at least one fake book on his shelves of music? And for the rest of the shelves, performing exactly what the dots say is what MIDI systems do, and it's not music, so all music is to some extent different and therefore fake. Folk just takes the differences further.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 11 Oct 14 - 04:54 PM

I'll keep the child in order if the Paddies keep you under control. Sounds fair to me.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 06:49 AM

On 10 Oct 14 - 07:49 AM I posted a challenge to a statement that has been made on this thread asking three questions for explanation, justification and for the naming of names.

The reply was posted on 10 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM saying:-
in due course it might be few days or even a week i will pm you with details, i have more important things to do right now, but i will be in touch, bearing in mind that it will be a private message, that is not be repeated on a public forum.

This reply has now come and I respect the request not to disclose the details. However, I feel at liberty to reveal that it does not begin to answer my questions nor does it name the people that are being accused of malpractice.

10 Oct 14 - 11:06 AM I enquired why if this was a private matter, why it was alluded to on a public forum.

The reply came on 10 Oct 14 - 11:21 AM saying:-
Vic, merely the fault of the medium the internet, and being in a hurry to post there is no conspiracy,

If I am reading this correctly, it seems to indicate that fault does not lie with the writer who was "in a hurry to post" but with the internet for being such an immediate medium.
Does this mean that because the internet is fast that we do not have ant responsibility for what we post on it?

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 09:47 AM

no it means the internet has certain inadequacies as a medium of communication, lack of body langauge lack of vocal tone all of which can be misinterpreted. I gave you answers stylistically and named people who i believed were imposing styles.
Vic, you are not at liberty to do any such thing, why should I name names?
I gave you details and informed and named one organisation and named the organisation and the kind of clubs who i thought were imposing stylistic boundaries, however i will go further and name some more , but you might have to wait another week.
I am busy playing music and organising a festival, so you will just have to wait.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 10:11 AM

"the stylistic remark was aimed at comhaltas" an extract from my personal message,I have named one of the groups or organisations that are imposing styles, the others I have made pretty obvious but I will tell you in a little while, you will just have to keep waiting.
Vic, why are you erroneously trying to give the impression that i have not answered ANY of your questions, you have told a half truth., you should have said, Dick has named one organisation and given a pretty strong indication of who the others are.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 10:18 AM

Vic, you could have replied to me in a personal message instead you told a lie about me on a public forum, how can I trust you after that.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 11:38 AM

Forgive me if I'm wrong, GSS, but with this thread you seem to be suddenly, abruptly and arbitrarily reviving a decades old controversy, primarily initiated by Dave Harker's book 'Fakesong' (Open University Press, 1985 - note the date!).

What I would like to know is:

1. Why bring this up now?

2. What will we learn by discussing it now?

3. What more do you believe that there is to learn?

Just asking!

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 01:13 PM

Vic, you could have replied to me in a personal message instead you told a lie about me on a public forum, how can I trust you after that.

You have asked me not to reveal your reply. My reading of your reply is that you did not answer my questions nor did you name names. So unless you are prepared to make your PM public, we will have to leave it with me sticking to my account and you saying that I am not telling the truth.
I am prepared to let people judge from our past form on Mudcat who is likely to be telling the truth. Before we get into realms of further unreality. I will sign out here.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 01:41 PM

"I am prepared to let people judge from our past form on Mudcat"
I have to say that that though Vic tends to shoot from the hip, as I have found to my cost on occasion. he is one of the straightest and most dedicated individuals I have ever encountered on the folk scene
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 02:42 PM

I did name names, I named Comhaltas, how can you read that as a non answer?

Vic, you should have replied to me by personal message you should not have replied in public with an attempt to discredit me, why did you do that, do you have an agenda?
This is what i said that you took umbrage too,"The problem is not the musicians,but those people who get themselves into a position of power and then try and start dictating how it should be done stylistically and who is going to get the gigs, these people with their narrow attitudes have attempted to ruin many peoples livelihoods."
anybody else can pm me and i will name names, providing the personal message is kept private,
Vic you have lost any trust I had in you, you know you were wrong and you should have replied with a personal message you have shown me that I was right not to trust you., you owe me an apology.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:32 PM

Assuming this thread isn't just a wind-up, it's worth stating that the answer to the original question is clearly 'no'. Although Bert Lloyd did tinker with several songs (discussed here already at length), his 'improvements' represent a very small fraction of the traditional repertoire. And, even if you accept Harker's agenda and dodgy scholarship, he didn't actually live up to his catchy title by demonstrating substantial fakery of material. The Voice of the People CDs (and personal memories of individual traditional singers) are a useful antidote to this kind of nonsense.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 03:42 PM

See, I was right all along.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: olddude
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 09:05 PM

Well call me anything but don't call me later for dinner

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 03:27 AM

Vic, you have not answered my question why did you not reply by personal message
if you had, I would have added further names as well as CCE, I clearly stated Irish singers clubs most of whom who have rules about unaccompanied singing only, which is a stylistic restriction., this is not a problem for me, I can do unaccompanied evenings, in fact the Cork singers club have booked me at least five times, but it does exclude a lot of performers, that is the right of the club organiser, however it does not alter the fact it is a stylistic restriction AND EXCLUDES PERFORMERS
so I have now stated publicly as well as in a personal message who I am referring to.
Vic, you chose to not reply by personal message but to attempt to make out that I had not named who i was referring to,I consider that untrustworthy.
Jim Carroll, states that you were are hardworking and dedicated , sentiments I do not disagree with, but you have indicated to me that your decision not to reply by personal message means that anything further on the subject that I might say to you privately might at some point end up being posted on a public forum.

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

"have rules about unaccompanied singing only, which is a stylistic restriction."
No it isn't - virtually all the finest singers in Ireland are unaccompanied and are stylishly superior to those who choose to accompany themselves.
At the present time, the repertoire being sung here is one that needs no accompaniment - the attitude by club organisers towards instrumentation has nothing to do with restricting style and has far more to do with making sure the music doesn't follow the same disastrous path that has been taken elsewhere.
If you have a point to make about Comhaltas, why not make it publicly instead of alluding to secret messages and slandering one of the most respected long-time stalwarts of the English folk scene - you must be doing your own career a power of good with the way you are behaving!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 07:45 AM

And.....100!

Subject: RE: should folk music be called fake music
From: Musket
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM

So let's put it in Room 101