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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Oct 14 - 12:26 PM Just curious what difference if any it would make to either side of the arguement if the black face paint was to be substituted with a black [or any other colour] balaclava / ski mask with cut out eye and mouth holes ??? [No I'm not talking about KKK hoods...] Might it then negate associations with race, but then connect to a network of other cultural connotations. Russian Morris Dance |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 01:12 PM Take a look at flag and bone Morris men that will start a whole new argument |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Guest Date: 15 Oct 14 - 02:52 PM The Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines racism as "poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race" and/or " The belief some races of people are better than others". I.M.H.O I don't think anyone blacking their faces while dancing morris to adhere to the "tradition" of out of work farm lads disguising themselves to dance and "beg" money to tide themselves over fall into either of the above definitions however historically factual that tradition may or may not be. While I firmly believe true racism is an evil which sadly will never be totally eradicated from the dysfunctional world we live in, I don't believe that seeing racism where none actually really exists does anything to address the real issues. Threads such as this simply give a platform for people to criticise anything they do not understand or like. This, of course, is their right in a nation that holds dear the principle of free speech, but they do not have the right to accuse anyone of something as vile as racism without evidence that this is actually what is intended. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Les in Chorlton Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:49 PM Nice try guest! 1. Many many defos on the big R - mocking people is a smal r but a bad one 2. "anyone blacking their faces while dancing morris to adhere to the "tradition" of out of work farm lads disguising themselves to dance and "beg" money to tide themselves over fall into either of the above definitions however historically factual that tradition may or may not be." - almost entirely unrelated to Border - with it's big boots in Minstrelsey 3. "Threads such as this simply give a platform for people to criticise anything they do not understand or like" - true most post supporting Blackface show all sorts of ignorance - not least of the history of Morros. 3. "but they do not have the right to accuse anyone of something as vile as racism without evidence that this is actually what is intended. " - 4. have you read the stuff above about "The piece goes on to discuss the incorporation of blacking up into "traditional" events: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence."??????? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 04:22 PM Don't forget that Border Morris is not real it is a fiction of someone's imagination |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Guest Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:01 PM As I said Les, everyone has the right to his/her own opinion. I remember the minstrel show from the 60's/70's', did'nt like them, the fact that they were white men dressing as caricatures of black men was and is wrong on every level. The point I was trying to make is that a culture has arisen where "Racism" is seen where none actually exists. While I accept what is or is not seen as racist is open to personal interpretation I do feel that when we live in a society where children are banned from singing baa baa black sheep at school in case it offends someone it's time to take a reality check |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:53 PM By uncanny coincidence, today's local free paper carries an advert for a business search directory. Under the headline "Need an Electrician ?" is a clip art photo of a dopey looking bloke surrounded by smouldering wires, with his face all sooty and blacked up for traditional cliched comedy effect. I showed it to the mrs, asking her.. "Don't think about it, just give your immediate reaction, is this image racist ???" Mrs punkfolkrocker works in local authority job many Jeremy Clarkson clone mudcatters would consider exemplifies 'PC gone mad'. She also has an MA in a 'PC gone madness' field of study. Her immediate answer was "NO". Then, a few seconds later, "Well, maybe.." "But it's just a corny joke, his face is sooty because he's crap at wiring and blew himself up. OK,... perhaps it could be seen as racist by some people..." I then explained why I asked the question about the comic photo, in relation the the subject of this thread. Mrs punkfolkrocker loves watching the local morris side, but has never heard of black face morris. I explained further... She then exclaimed "What, they deliberately black up their faces !!?? That's definitely racist !!!" "That's as bad as Golliwogs and black and white minstrels...." Pro Black Face supporters / Anti Black Face protesters, make of that what you will... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:39 PM "That's as bad as Golliwogs and black and white minstrels...." Whilst I am also uncomfortable with the blacking up because of modern day sensitivities, I don't agree with this knee-jerk reaction fully. a) The dolls were a deliberate caricature of people of African descent, and the costume of the dolls was part of this, along with other features. b) The minstrels were also deliberate caricature, involving a whole catalogue of features, pseudo dialect, gross exaggeration, use of simple primitive instruments, movement etc. To state that simple blacking of the face is equal to all of this deliberate racism is way over the top. The fact is that no matter how much historically we can relate the blacking up to minstrels, I suspect very few morris dancers are knowingly being offensive. Was blacking up to perform Othello wrong? Is blacking up to perform Othello wrong? I can remember blacking up to play The Black Prince of Paradise as a mummer back in the 60s. Was this any different to Othello actors? I'm not trying to present a case. These are genuine questions. One contributor said the whole idea of painting the face is wrong. My local side use the colour purple very effectively and I quite like the effect and can see nothing wrong with this. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Phil Edwards Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:48 PM I was referring to the teams mentioned earlier by Phil, where the black face is part of an overall outlandish costume- not likely to be associated with minstrelsy etc. This creates a different effect to (for example) "the Shropshire Bedlams", where the team is dressed in jeans, trainers and rag jackets, with only their faces blacked. Certainly watching them as part of festival parades, I have felt there were visual parallels with a minstrel show that I found disquieting. What visual parallels, though? Minstrels didn't wear tatter coats (and they certainly didn't wear jeans or trainers). They typically wore costumes based on evening dress, with variations & accessories like bow ties & top hats. (If anything, Black Pig's frock coats & top hats are actually closer to the minstrel look!) Minstrels also - invariably - painted their faces with white lips and eye sockets, something border sides never do. I believe the only reason tatter coats, etc seem to be "associated with minstrelsy" is that, when we see a Morris side, we're already primed to watch out for anything that might be a bit reactionary. A border side's normal get-up is quite 'outlandish' enough that any comparison with minstrels wouldn't arise - unless we're looking for it. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Phil Edwards Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:38 PM "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence." And yet even now some misguided folk musicians insist on playing banjoes, oblivious to the offence they may be causing... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 02:19 AM Nice to see this discussion moving forward now banjo players have becone racists |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:33 AM we live in a society where children are banned from singing baa baa black sheep at school in case it offends someone I wondered how long it would take before someone brought this up. This is a story from 1986, where it was alleged in the popular press that the nursery rhyme was seen as racially dubious. This was based only on a rewriting of the rhyme in one private nursery as an exercise for the children there and not on any local government policy. As expected the right wing press seized on and amplified this to create a news story about "political correctness gone mad". People have been citing it ever since whenever anyone questions "traditions" like blackface morris. Meanwhile: "Good afternoon ladies and gentleman. Today we're going to do some dancing that was invented in 1975. We've blacked up, but here are no racist connotations to what we are doing. The fact that the dances we are doing are loosely based on something that was referred to as 'niggering' in the 19th century should not give you any cause for concern. It's traditional, innit, so that makes it beyond criticism." |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:33 AM we live in a society where children are banned from singing baa baa black sheep at school in case it offends someone I wondered how long it would take before someone brought this up. This is a story from 1986, where it was alleged in the popular press that the nursery rhyme was seen as racially dubious. This was based only on a rewriting of the rhyme in one private nursery as an exercise for the children there and not on any local government policy. As expected the right wing press seized on and amplified this to create a news story about "political correctness gone mad". People have been citing it ever since whenever anyone questions "traditions" like blackface morris. Meanwhile: "Good afternoon ladies and gentleman. Today we're going to do some dancing that was invented in 1975. We've blacked up, but here are no racist connotations to what we are doing. The fact that the dances we are doing are loosely based on something that was referred to as 'niggering' in the 19th century should not give you any cause for concern. It's traditional, innit, so that makes it beyond criticism." |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:56 AM At least I cannot be called racist for playing the concertina, but as for those foreign instruments like guitars..... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 16 Oct 14 - 04:07 AM The banjo is an African American instrument by origin, popularised by use in minstrel shows. White people playing it does not have any racism connotions. Blacked up white people playing it, on the other hand... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Jack Blandiver Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:03 AM It only gets weird when you get self-styled English Folk Purists taking offence at the Turkish fiddle, the Indian harmonium or the Electronic shruti box or whatever. I've had this on a number of occasions; one of them was a guitarist, the other was a concertina player, so I had fun telling 'em just where in the world their tech originated (the concertina uses free reeds developed by the Chinese thousands of years before Wheatstone nabbed them to drive his little honkophone). I think we established in one of WAVs threads that the only truly indigenous English instrument was the Stylophone - needless to say these are since tarnished by most unfortunate association so mine's been quietly retired until such times it seems respectable to dig it out again. Maybe a case could be made* for the EMS Synthi or VCS3 Putney which were certainly folk in terms of cottage industry handicraft, not to mention consequent lore & mythology which forms the very soul of English Fetishistic Hauntology. However, my contender for the Ultimate Indigenous English Musical Instrument is The Oramics Machine, currently on display in The Science Museum in London. This cult artefact is a point of pilgrimage for EM devotees from all corners of Planet Earth and no doubt beyond, a veritable shrine at the sacred heart of Ancient Magical Albion which is cause of real Pride & Joy with respect of English Traditional Music (in its true non-folk idiomatic sense naturally). We went there last summer after my wife had just taken a sneaky pic of David Bowie's EMS Synthi in the V&A (I think Major Tom's stylophone had been pulled at the last minute). Anyhoo, read about The Oramics Machine here: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/oramics. * There is a lame joke here that only Analogue Synth Nerds will get. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:04 AM So a black faced morris man playing the banjo is definately racist then? Oh for goodness sake, the minstrel was, as has been pointed out, caricature of someone of African origin. There is evidence of dancers blacking up prior to minstel shows appearing in this country. Why do you think it was necessary to introduce an act of parliament to prohibit the practice?? It is also blindingly obvious that the repeal of that act cleared the way for minstrel shows in this country, so common sense tells us that it is no suprise that there are more recorded instances of dancers blacking up after the repeal of the act as they were then able to revert to old practices. THERE IS NO OTHER CONNECTION! A morris man in full kit is in no way demeaning to anyone of a different ethnic origin. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:23 AM I give up. Business as usual. Keep on "niggering", lads. When you've finished, you can get a few beers from the "paki shop" and go for a "chinkie". Nothing racist about any of this when there's no offence intended, eh? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:35 AM What visual parallels, though? Minstrels didn't wear tatter coats Of course they did. Never heard of JIM CROW? He was THE original minstrel character, of TD Rice. "Zip Coon" was the fancy dandy character, by contrast. TD Rice brought his wildly popular "Jim Crow" to England in the 1830s. It was one of the most globally enjoyed pieces of popular culture of the first half of the 19th century…possibly even the "ground zero" for the development of most of American-style popular music up to today. The argument could be (and has been) made that Daddy Rice's "Jim Crow" was not *intended* as racist, per se. In fact, much of early American minstrel music was not INTENDING (if that's the line of argument) to cause offense or to "be racist"…and yet it *was*. And ultimately it didn't just "offend" but created and reinforced oppressive racist views. The effect in USA was so damaging that "we" can't even do seemingly justifiable things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f7HTTll0KA And here some African-Americans weigh in on the above…in a presentational mode that itself is VERY similar to minstrelsy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NavLEbmEj5Q Their last "point" (if you can call it that!) might as well be aimed at the perpetually denying blackface Morris men. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Gibb Sahib Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:53 AM oops, meant to post in the last, Jump jim crow |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:59 AM Music and musical instruments can be multi-cultural and anti-racist if the if respect and sensitivity are employed. Whilst a white person playing a banjo, singing a song from Minstrelsey with a 'Blackface' may not entirely show "respect and sensitivity" playing dance tunes from these Islands and other places and explaining the history of the banjo - opportunities for such an explanation being a bit rare - might do quite well. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Phil Edwards Date: 16 Oct 14 - 06:05 AM Obviously calling it 'niggering' would be racist, and it would be just as racist if the face-paint involved was green and yellow. Find me someone who does call it that and I'll hold your coat while you advise them otherwise. I'm not saying dancers shouldn't use less contentious colours than black - in fact, if they want to avoid getting embroiled in endless, pointless, baseless arguments it's probably a good idea. But at the end of the day the arguments are baseless - all-black makeup looks nothing like minstrel blackface, tatter coats look nothing like minstrel gear, and there are plenty of good reasons for playing the banjo*. To me they come out of the same stable as "Child was a bourgeois fabricator", "Sharp was a middle-class imperialist", "the Morris Ring was founded by fascists" and so on. In short, "all this English traditional stuff, isn't it all a bit, you know, dodgy?". To which the answer is, No, it isn't. *This may be a weak point in my argument. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Howard Jones Date: 16 Oct 14 - 06:06 AM All the images I've seen of Jim Crow show the character wearing ragged and patched clothes, but nothing resembling the tatter coats worn by Border morris sides. Les quotes the mixed-race caller Nigel Hogg who says he sees black up morris sides as "a parody mocking people of colour". Of course he's entitled to his opinion, but I really cannot see anything in morris, from the kit to the dances, that suggest they are mocking black people. The only possible offence is the colour used on the faces. To repeat the point I made earlier, if morris were mocking black people then painting the faces a different colour, or not at all, would not disguise this. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 16 Oct 14 - 06:15 AM Compare and contrast Compare and contrast 2 |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,pheasants etc Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:11 AM Compare and contrast. Incomplete blacking - just enough for matt black to disguise facial features, as is an established reason for blacking up. I don't think the morris guys have whitened lips - it's a high contrast photo. If I wear a hat like the guys on the left could I be regarded as mocking black people ? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,pheasants etc Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:18 AM If Jack Blandiver's Stylophone can be "quietly retired until such times it seems respectable to dig it out again" what's the problem (for those who see a problem) with Border Morris dancers bringing 18th century blacked faces out of retirement ? (It's not "needless to say" - I don't know and am not interested enough to research it) |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Howard Jones Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:27 AM So far as picture 1 is concerned I can so no similarity whatsoever, other than that they both show groups of men with their faces blacked up. The costumes are entirely different. The way they are blacked up is also entirely different - the minstrels are in true 'blackface' with no white skin showing but with exaggerated lips and eyes, the morris have only their faces blacked but their necks and hands are not. In the second picture the photo of the morris dancer is too poor to really show what he is wearing, but what I can see bears no similarity to the Jim Crow costume. Certainly the tatter jackets of the Shropshire Bedlams and their imitators are quite different. So far as we know (and I accept the evidence is scanty) Border Morris has a long history of blacking up. Some of that history coincided with a period when blackface minstrelsy was a huge part of popular culture. It would be naive to imagine that it cannot have had some influence on morris during that period, but that is not to say that the practice of blacking up came from minstrelsy, and nothing else in morris suggests that it is imitating black culture whether real or stereotypical Minstrelsy thankfully is dead and buried. Morris has moved on. In today's society it would be quite wrong to black up to imitate, let alone denigrate, black people but that is not what morris is doing. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Phil Edwards Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:28 AM Close, but no cigar. First pair: both groups have - blacked-up faces - hats - jackets and ties But that's about it. The group on the Left have - beards - glasses - no white eye-sockets or lips - no white gloves - no one outfit - nothing spangly, sparkly or showbiz-y - no jazz hands - no cheery smiles Second pair: on the left is a solo dancer striking an exaggerated, hand-waving pose while wearing patched and ragged shirt, trousers, jacket and hat. On the right is someone participating in a group dance, not doing anything to draw attention to him as an individual, wearing an elaborate tatter coat and a hat with feathers along with a perfectly ordinary shirt, trousers and waistcoat. I'm not saying minstrelsy didn't feed into border Morris and/or Molly dancing - I think it almost certainly did. But if that's the problem, it's always going to be there - changing the way we do border Morris now won't make it go away. What I am saying is that the similarities between minstrel outfits and present-day border Morris get-up are pretty minimal. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:32 AM I think you've defeated your own argument there Spleen, can't see any real similarities, as I've said before, the minstrels are caricature! As has already been pointed out the minstels have whitened lips and eyes, and afro wigs, the morris men clearly do not. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,pheasants etc Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:59 AM Are "jazz hands" a racial caricature ? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 16 Oct 14 - 08:10 AM Interestingly enough, the Philadelphia Mummers Parade dates back before the rise of Minstrelsy, with even George Washington engaging in the practice of New Year's visiting during the seven years when the City was the Capital: it is only in recent years that this sensitivity legislated on, albeit not entirely satisfactorily, it seems. They also followed the practice of blacking up, and this brings in the diabolical emulation, rather than racial. Can I correct one misinterpretation of the Law against blacking-up in the 18th Century: the "Waltham" Black Acts described above targetted two specific bodies, the "Waltham Blacks" in Hampshire and the "Windsor Blacks" in Berkshire, who were organised groups most tangibly acting as poachers attacking the property of society figures. However, in decisions not too far removed from the modern anti-terrorism excesses, the covert concern motivating the legislation was that the groups may have been organising as Jacobite rebels using smuggling as a means of fund-raising: the parallels with Russell Thorndyke's Dr Syn fiction are of course only too obvious. This may have been an expression of a wider movement of social discontent typified by the Welsh Ceffyl Pren, "Wooden Horse", a cross-dressing blackfaced group specialising in direct action to resolve problems the Law would not touch, which culminated in the Rebecca Riots destroying the Toll Gates in South Wales in the 1830s, close on the heels of the repeal of the Waltham Act. The tradition is still ongoing (most actively in the BDSM community!), and has a certain relationship with the Molly Dancer heritage as well, not least in Border Morris. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 16 Oct 14 - 08:48 AM I think I'll bow out of this discussion for now. I'm not going to change anyone's mind - and no-one here has convinced me - especially as I'm coming from a position where I too used to defend this practice and have deployed the same arguments in the past. I'm just going to make the point that I'm not suggesting these (largely) middle aged white men - presumably from border towns with very small black populations - are in themselves racists or intentionally portraying something that can be viewed as a racist stereotype. The modern-day connotations are quite simply a by-product of living in a post-minstelry era, where minstrelry is the most obvious and best known reference point and where there is a body of evidence suggesting that minstrelry had an influence on the style the current day lot claim to reviving - notwithstanding the evidence that the practice predates minstrelry. What is beyond dispute is that folk revival era border morris sides chose to black up in an era where the practice was already widely regarded as highly dubious because of the legacy of minstrelry. The clock cannot be turned back to erase this part of the history of white entertainment, however much anyone might wish this to be so. Viewed through this prism (and taking the "niggering" issue into account), the argument that the dancers don't dress exactly the same as minstrels is neither here nor there. Questions about this issue will continue to be raised as long as white people black up. And so they should be: it's part of the price of blacking up in the 21st century. The evidence-based historian Ronald Hutton, in "Stations of the Sun" (read it if you haven't - it's fascinating stuff), notes that in the 18th and early 19th century, morris sides moved between the local big houses at Christmas, dancing for alms: aristocrats, gentry, farmers, tradesman and clergy were viewed as valuable sponsors. Hutton does not make reference to disguise being donned, presumably because dancing to entertain the wealthy was seen as a socially acceptable way for the rural poor to raise money. This tradition declined in the middle of the 19th century because both dancers and patrons (note: patrons!) started to view it as outmoded and because social divisions were widening. Hutton does mention dancers on the borders during this era "generally" blacking up but appears to view this as an exception to the general rule and he does not make reference to this practice being to hide the identity of the dancers. Elsewhere he describes disguise in ritual begging as "part of the general merry-making" which then in itself became part of the ritual - household accounts from the era often include records of payments made for such entertainment. Anyway, what these people choose to do with their faces is, at the end of the day, entirely up to them. Doesn't mean I have to applaud them for it, though, or own this revival of a minor regional anomaly as meaningful or important part of my cultural heritage. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 09:56 AM It's all completely daft! |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Oct 14 - 10:40 AM Ok.. how well would a black face morris side be received at Notting Hill Carnival ??? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Brimbacombe Date: 16 Oct 14 - 10:59 AM "Ok.. how well would a black face morris side be received at Notting Hill Carnival ???" Just because a black person sees something as racist, that doesn't mean to say that that thing is racist. I would say that those keen to be offended would object strongly. Those whose knees weren't in jerk mode would perhaps speak to the dancers or do a bit of research before making their decision. I dare say some people - and I assume you are referring to black people here, punkfolkrocker - would perhaps find it mildly racist and others not so much. Context is everything. And black people don't think collectively. No minority (or majority, for that matter) does. My opinion on this matter is that if I were in one of the groups I would probably suggest a move to purple paint. That said I still support people whose acts and intentions aren't racist to carry on as they were doing. There is a lot of racism in this country (and in the world) these days. The bile spread by Britain First, the lack of black members in senior management groups, the rise in racial hate crimes in the aftermath of incidences such as Lee Rigby's murder, etc… etc… I'll fight until my last breath against real, nasty, deliberate racism. A group of middle-aged men putting black on their faces, and doing it as far as they are concerned in the continuation of a centuries-old tradition? I understand the unease over it, but sometimes people just have to feel uneasy about things. For what it's worth, if my visits to the Notting Hill Carnival these days are anything to go by, I don't think a morris dancing side of any type would be particularly well received. Not least by the public school kids that increasingly populate it these days, trying to prove how edgy they are by smoking a spliff and drinking a can of Red Stripe. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Phil Edwards Date: 16 Oct 14 - 11:00 AM I'm not going to change anyone's mind - and no-one here has convinced me - especially as I'm coming from a position where I too used to defend this practice and have deployed the same arguments in the past. For what it's worth, I've changed sides myself - until quite recently I would have taken a position similar to the one you're taking now, i.e. that when anyone looks at black face make-up they're bound to see something racist. I said above that it was seeing Black Pig that changed my mind: They do black up; they also wear top hats, frock coats, scarves, feathers, badges, veils, goggles - you name it - and perform stick dances with such ferocity that they can finish with one fewer stick than they started with. When we saw them at Bakewell, my (Russian folk-dancing) daughter was so enchanted with them that I seriously looked into whether they had a satellite side near us. Actually it wasn't so much the Pig themselves as my daughter's reaction to them. She's one of the most unprejudiced people you could ever meet; if anything she's actively anti-prejudiced, and tends to react against the slightest reference to someone's gender, ethnicity, orientation, ability etc. I'm pretty liberal, but I grew up in the 70s, when you had to work at not being prejudiced. Her generation would no more pass a racist comment than they'd watch Watercolour Challenge - it just wouldn't occur to them. So if she can watch 30 blacked-up musicians and dancers for half an hour without thinking any the worse of them for it - in fact, without thinking anything except "where can I get some more of this?" - that suggests to me that black face makeup doesn't automatically ring the 'they might be racists' bell. It needs something else - and I think what it needs is the suspicion that the people doing it aren't edgy young steampunk rebels, but middle-aged guys who are into English traditional music but haven't thought deeply about what they're doing. In other words, that they're typical folkies. To me it boils down to this: when we look at folkies do we think "ooh, ye olde England - I bet they're 'kippers"? And, if other people looking at folkies do think that, how do we react? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 11:02 AM An interesting question Guest Punkfolkrocker, I suspect the answer is not very well, but mainly because Notting Hill is a Carribean festival and morris of any description would be completely out of place. I am very much of the opinion that any inteligent person of afro-carribean origins would not be offended by blacked up morris dancers, as I believe they would show respect for the traditions of the country they live, and may well have been born in. those that do not, are perhaps guilty of being racist themselves, |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Oct 14 - 11:29 AM In an ideal world a morris side could be invited to perform at Notting Hill. Maybe it's already happened - it's well over 15 years since I last attended..??? For me & the mrs, the best events are multicultural and a mix of diversity. Like Phil Edwards, I'm a product of a generation that had to learn to no longer be racist or sexist. Punk / new wave / 2 tone ska / Rock against racism / anti n@zi leauge were the big bang catalyst for provincial teenagers like me, who grew up on Curry and Chips / Love Thy Neighbour / Black and white minstrals / Bernard Manning & the Comedians, and all the rest of that deeply ingrained cultural racism and misogyny.. Internationalism, and multiculturailsm is something we grew to take on board as more meaningful and valuable than all the closed minded xenophobic crap we were previously indoctrinated with. The first big WOMAD Festival at Shepton Mallet, was the best UK festival I ever went to. As a result, I guess we 50 somethings are maybe now more concious about 'what not to do or say', than a younger generation that is maybe more relaxed in taking progressive attitudes for granted. I hope to think so anyway... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM Typo -- meant to write "now more self-concious about 'what not to do or say'" |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Brimbacombe Date: 16 Oct 14 - 11:34 AM "As a result, I guess we 50 somethings are maybe now more concious about 'what not to do or say', than a younger generation that is maybe more relaxed in taking progressive attitudes for granted. I hope to think so anyway…" As someone of a younger generation who has grown up only really knowing multiculturalism, I think that is a great way of looking at things punkfolkrocker. A slight oversensitivity - if that's what it is - is a billion times better than total insensitivity. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Edthefolkie Date: 16 Oct 14 - 12:14 PM I'd like to advance a totally spurious theory about Black Pig Morris. They hail from D H Lawrence country and channel the spirits of their ancestors who went down pit, holding their snap tins, helmets and lamps, and delved in the earth for black gold. The belligerent stick dancing is believed to recreate the ambience of Eastwood on a Saturday night. I haven't however thought up a theory about their associated belly dancing side - feel free. Incidentally some members of Black Pig employ a sort of silver & black face makeup which could be the way ter go me duck. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,pheasants etc Date: 16 Oct 14 - 12:48 PM Excuse me punkfolkrocker with your "I'm a product of a generation that had to learn to no longer be racist or sexist." I find your speaking for a whole generation offensive. Some of us felt that the things on your list were wrong all along. Though I never encountered "Curry & Chips" and don't see the problem with choosing that at the chippy. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 12:53 PM Also your events that are "multicultural and a mix of diversity" often rely on preservation and re-invention of traditions including those of middle aged white men with bells and sticks. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Oct 14 - 12:55 PM Well I applaud your superior progressiveness .. well done... shame you're so easily offended though... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Oct 14 - 01:09 PM "Also your events that are "multicultural and a mix of diversity" often rely on preservation and re-invention of traditions including those of middle aged white men with bells and sticks." yeah.. maybe often ? but not always .. I'm a middle aged white man with battle scarred electric guitars, fuzz boxes, and deep tremelo & dub echo delays.... and the odd anlog synth or 2.. But then again, I fit in another easily definable niche of recycled retro traditional musical enthusiasms.. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 01:09 PM and of course the middle aged men with sticks don't have to be white. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Phil Edwards Date: 16 Oct 14 - 01:13 PM PFR, I take great exception to the way you take exception to the post that took exception to your post. Please unsubscirbe me from yuor list immediately. (Oops, wrong decade.) |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Oct 14 - 01:20 PM Oh sod this for a game of ideological re-education, I'm off to make the wife's dinner before she get's home from work... Now could you imagine Sid James or Terry Scott saying that...??? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:15 PM http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/15/black-up-row-uk-one-nation-cameron |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Graham O'Callaghan Date: 16 Oct 14 - 05:02 PM Blimey, haven't you people more important things to do? I was a founder member of a Border Morris side at the beginning of the 80's ... not many of us around in those days ... and in some ways modelled ourselves on Silurian who were/are a pretty well established traditional side who still dance a collected repertoire. What I would moan about is not the 'black face' but how current sides have degraded the tradition by wearing multi coloured costumes and face paint, prat about without any regard for style, rhythm or timing, use there sticks like wet hankies and yelp like digs on heat!! They are an absolute shambles! |
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