Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Conspiracy theories

MGM·Lion 03 Nov 14 - 01:46 AM
GUEST,CS 03 Nov 14 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 Nov 14 - 02:51 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Nov 14 - 02:55 AM
Musket 03 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM
Ebbie 03 Nov 14 - 03:09 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Nov 14 - 03:32 AM
akenaton 03 Nov 14 - 03:50 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Nov 14 - 03:55 AM
Musket 03 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM
GUEST 03 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Ed 03 Nov 14 - 05:08 AM
Musket 03 Nov 14 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 Nov 14 - 06:00 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Nov 14 - 06:06 AM
Ed T 03 Nov 14 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Sheep in wolf's clothing Steve Shaw 03 Nov 14 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,# 03 Nov 14 - 07:03 AM
Musket 03 Nov 14 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,# 03 Nov 14 - 07:18 AM
Ed T 03 Nov 14 - 07:21 AM
Uncle_DaveO 03 Nov 14 - 09:41 AM
Wesley S 03 Nov 14 - 09:49 AM
Rapparee 03 Nov 14 - 09:57 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Nov 14 - 10:12 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Nov 14 - 10:39 AM
Musket 03 Nov 14 - 12:00 PM
Ed T 03 Nov 14 - 02:39 PM
olddude 03 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 03 Nov 14 - 04:00 PM
Rapparee 03 Nov 14 - 09:07 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 03 Nov 14 - 10:20 PM
Ebbie 03 Nov 14 - 11:01 PM
Bill D 03 Nov 14 - 11:10 PM
Musket 04 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Nov 14 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Ed 04 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Ed 04 Nov 14 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Stim 05 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,# 05 Nov 14 - 09:19 AM
Rapparee 05 Nov 14 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,# 05 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM
Bill D 05 Nov 14 - 10:01 AM
Ed T 05 Nov 14 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 05 Nov 14 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,DTM 05 Nov 14 - 12:56 PM
Musket 05 Nov 14 - 01:03 PM
Rapparee 05 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM
LadyJean 06 Nov 14 - 02:03 AM
Ed T 06 Nov 14 - 04:46 AM
Acorn4 06 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM
Bill D 06 Nov 14 - 01:01 PM
Penny S. 07 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM
Musket 07 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM
Ed T 07 Nov 14 - 02:11 PM
Rapparee 07 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM
Musket 08 Nov 14 - 12:37 PM
Ed T 08 Nov 14 - 12:43 PM
frogprince 08 Nov 14 - 01:26 PM
Jack Campin 09 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM
Ed T 09 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM
Ed T 09 Nov 14 - 12:36 PM
Ed T 09 Nov 14 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,# 09 Nov 14 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,# 09 Nov 14 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Owl Glass 10 Nov 14 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,# 10 Nov 14 - 08:03 AM
Ed T 10 Nov 14 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 10 Nov 14 - 02:30 PM
Musket 10 Nov 14 - 03:48 PM
Bill D 10 Nov 14 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 11 Nov 14 - 01:40 AM
Musket 11 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Nov 14 - 03:58 AM
Musket 11 Nov 14 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Nov 14 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 11 Nov 14 - 09:07 AM
Musket 11 Nov 14 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 11 Nov 14 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 11 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Stim 11 Nov 14 - 07:35 PM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM
Penny S. 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Stim 12 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM
Musket 13 Nov 14 - 03:29 AM
Rob Naylor 13 Nov 14 - 05:20 AM
Ed T 13 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM
Musket 13 Nov 14 - 07:11 AM
Ed T 13 Nov 14 - 07:28 AM
Rob Naylor 13 Nov 14 - 07:34 AM
Musket 13 Nov 14 - 07:39 AM
Ed T 13 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,# 13 Nov 14 - 09:35 AM
Rob Naylor 13 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Nov 14 - 10:30 AM
Musket 13 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 13 Nov 14 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Stim 13 Nov 14 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Nov 14 - 02:06 PM
Ed T 13 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Stim 13 Nov 14 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Nov 14 - 06:12 PM
Musket 13 Nov 14 - 06:27 PM
Ed T 13 Nov 14 - 07:46 PM
Musket 14 Nov 14 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,Stim 14 Nov 14 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 Nov 14 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM
Musket 15 Nov 14 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Nov 14 - 04:39 PM
Musket 15 Nov 14 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw dangling only by underpants e 15 Nov 14 - 07:40 PM
Ed T 15 Nov 14 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,...underpant elastic from fence... 15 Nov 14 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 15 Nov 14 - 07:52 PM
Jeri 15 Nov 14 - 09:51 PM
Bill D 16 Nov 14 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,# 16 Nov 14 - 08:30 PM
Bill D 16 Nov 14 - 09:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 14 - 04:54 AM
Ed T 17 Nov 14 - 05:10 AM
Musket 17 Nov 14 - 06:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 14 - 09:02 AM
Musket 17 Nov 14 - 11:21 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 01:46 AM

I am as convinced as it is possible to be that the Moon Landings of July 1969 occurred on the Moon and not in the Utah desert. And that Myra Hindley, the notorious Moors Murderess, died in custody, and the coffin that was buried as a consequence actually contained her body, and not bricks while she had been let out thru a side door of the prison because announcing her release would have provoked too much protest...

In short, I think the vast majority of rumours of such conspiracy theories which catch on are nonsense, not even worth a second of any intelligent person's consideration.

But, as James Thurber pointed out as a moral to one of his 'Fables For Our Time', you might as well fall flat on your face as bend over too far backwards; which is to say, in present context, that because the vast majority of conspiracy theories and rumours which catch on are rubbish, that surely doesn't mean that none of them can ever possibly be true and well founded.

There are two which I do believe in; have stated so on this forum before; and have received a certain amount of scorn & obloquy [particularly on the part of one generally agreed as rather foolish regular forum-stirrer-upper] for dong so. Namely, that the deaths of two prominent women widely regarded as trouble-makers, Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana of Wales, were both too convenient to too many influential people to have been quite as adventitiously unfortunate as they were made to appear. Nothing will convince me that they weren't both rather clumsily done away with at the behest of some to whom their continued existence constituted a serious threat.

Anyone care to comment on the phenomenology of the Conspiracy Theory; on these particular ones I mention; or on any others which may occur?

≈Michael≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:38 AM

One of the problems of the phrase 'Conspiracy Theory' is that it's something of a catchall term that can be used indiscriminately to undermine, what may indeed be perfectly rational and credible arguments about possible conspiracies. Are there conspiracies, of course there are.

Governments hide problematic truths from the people (such as how much they are being spied on for example). The police close ranks to protect themselves when people die under their watch (at a football match for example). Dossiers (about child abuse in high places for example) go 'missing.'

As for your specific examples, I don't have a clue concerning the truth of the circumstances surrounding either Lady Diana or Monroe's deaths, but do I think that those who rule us are frequently hideously shady and capable of eliminating problematic individuals - especially ones that may potentially compromise 'national security', absolutely I do. I think you'd have to be terribly naive not to think so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:51 AM

Of course, the phrase "conspiracy theory" is a misuse of the word 'theory'. A theory is not a hunch or a guess but a scientific model, of some aspect of reality, supported by (lots of) evidence. We should really be talking about a "conspiracy hypothesis" ... but that would probably never catch on ... ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:55 AM

Good point semantically, Shim. But I think it probably best to run with the generally accepted term, even if it is a bit loosely expressed.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM

Occams razor and and get your medication reviewed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:09 AM

I have no knowledge of either Monroe's or Diana's deaths. However, when you say: "Nothing will convince me that they weren't both rather clumsily done away with..." are you postulating that the driver was in on it? Fairly preposterous, wouldn't you say?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:32 AM

Ebbie -- An experienced professional driver doesn't get drunk while at work conveying distinguished passengers. He must surely have been got at.

≈M≈

Musket -- interpolations on your part, as implied in OP, are not welcome; any further that you trouble yourself to post will remain unread by me & will be resolutely ignored.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:50 AM

I think that Marilyn was a fragile soul, who may well have been persuaded that suicide was the only way out of her torment....for political reasons. Anything is possible among the political classes, but I rather agree with Ebbie that an arranged traffic accident seems clumsy and unprofessional.

I am led to believe that "life is cheap" amongst our criminal classes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:55 AM

I'll raise my head above the parapet and risk being caught in the crossfire of multiple Musketry 😆, by saying that I'm inclined to agree with Michael regarding the MM and Saint Diana deaths. However, I have to disagree over Myra Hindley - her 'death' was very conveniently-timed indeed, and I've always strongly suspected that she was released very quietly, with a new identity, to spend whatever she had (has?) left of her life in anonymity.

But, in all three cases, I believe it's unlikely we will ever know the truth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM

Either way, it keeps an airport bookstall industry going I suppose.

Still not nice for their family and friends to have to keep seeing or reading it, all the same. When we build them up and burn them down again, we forget they are humans with human feelings, aspirations and other humans who care for them. They tend to have children for instance. I know my Dad must have had his toes amputated so he could get nearer to the bar, but I don't want to read about it in The Daily Express.

Whilst you are on with conspiracy theories Mike, how's your newsagent? Heard from his nephew lately?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM

In some cases it seems almost as if they go out of their way to provoke conspiracy theory, viz;

- the death and burial of Bin Laden
- everything to do with Locherbie
- everything to do with UTA flight 772
- the removal of Gough Whitlam
- the temporary removal of Berlusconi when he tried to impede the ruin of Libya

Unfortunately we'll never know the truth as there is too much at stake for those involved.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 05:08 AM

And who might 'they' be?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 05:24 AM

I dare say you never know the truth when it stares at you...

Finding the truth is a wee bit different to offering alternatives.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:00 AM

Julius Caeser
Abraham Lincoln
Sir Thomas More
Salem Witchcraft
Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum
Bounty Mutineers
Molly Maguires
Earp Brothers and Doc Holiday - OK Corral
Oklahoma Courthouse Bombing
Twin Towers 911
Hay Market Eight
Chicago Seven
Bartolomeo Vanzetti and Nicola Sacco
Scottsboro Boys
Lindbergh baby kidnapping
Alger Hiss-Whittaker Chambers
Manson Family
Symbionese Liberation Army
McMartin Preschool
Shoot Out at Ruby Ridge
Clinton impeachment and Whitewater
Nixon resignation and Whitewater
Nuremberg
The gunpowder plot
Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette
Socrates
Paul McCartney' s death
Pearl Harbor
Munich beer hall
Shakespeare
chem trails
monkey virus
global warming
AIDS
Holocaust
L. Ron Hubbard
vaccines cause autism
water floridation
Moscow Purge 1936
Hollywood Ten
Tiananmen Square
Mary Queen of Scotts
Crucifiction of Jesus Christ

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

That should keep you twiddling for awhile When you are through we can move on to " who pushed Humpty Dumpty " Jack's involvement with candle sticks" bestiality and the piper' s son" and a hundred more".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:06 AM

PLEASE close this thread before Fugitive From Sanity gets started.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:21 AM

And, there was a poore misguided celtic lad who put forward the catty conspiracy theory- that our very own Steve Shaw was actually a sheep in a wood thicket's clothing , and I suspect, as a youth, he would be a lamb? A Shaw being a lamb, preposterous!

:)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Sheep in wolf's clothing Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:31 AM

I can baaa-ly believe you said that!


Oops....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:03 AM

Conspiracy theories, some of which could better be called crimes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:04 AM

It must have stung like sheep lightning.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:18 AM

Foolish conspiracy theories, like the Catholic Church hushing up mass graves of murdered children. Couldn't happen in Ireland or Canada. Just uneasy rumours for sure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:21 AM

The Bilderberg list


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:41 AM

Whenever I see/hear (MGM, are you listening?) a statement
that Nothing will convince me on a given subject,
I conclude from that very statement that it's from a mind not
only closed against rational discussion on that subject but
likely to adopt other, similar adamant positions. Thus
the credibility of other strong pronouncements from that
speaker/writer is made questionable.

A statement like "to convince me of such-and-such would
take extremely strong proof" would leave room for rational
discussion and allow for honesty or dignity of those who
hold contrary opinions.

Dave Oesterreich


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:49 AM

While most of us think of conspiracy theories - there are "true believers" that have "insider information". In my experience people rarely change sides in the matter. Most often than not the simplest answer is the correct one.

Except when the Trilateral Commission is involved. And we all know that the commission was started by Dr Moriarty.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:57 AM

I have a Theory about Conspiracies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 10:12 AM

Yes, I am listening Uncle Dave. I have taken note of your stylistic preferences, but feel no particular necessity to modify my chosen modes of expression.

Thank you nevertheless for your interest.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 10:39 AM

Personally I have little time for so-called conspiracy theories, least of all for those surrounding lifestyle-deaths such as Monroe and Diana. Boring. However, there is, just occasionally, a rather too-easy willingness to cry "conspiracy theory" when one suspects the attempted covering-up of a miscarriage of justice. I've always believed this to be the case with the Lockerbie bombing. One of the first things that happened after the crash was that the scene, containing vital evidence, was violated, not just by well-meaning locals but, far more significantly, by swarms of unidentified Americans who were spiriting away that evidence. Read about it here:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n18/gareth-peirce/the-framing-of-al-megrahi

And don't get me started on the testimony of the demented shopkeeper in Malta which was such a vital part of the prosecution case. At least he was well paid by the yanks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 12:00 PM

Isn't Uncle Dave perceptive today?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:39 PM

""Legal Showdown: Swedish Woman Claims She Is The True Daughter Of Elvis Presley, Not Lisa Marie!: In a shocking new report that will blow everyone away, the Lisa Marie Presley America has grown to know as Elvis' only daughter may not actually be who she says she is! 
A Swedish woman named Lisa Johansen, a married mother-of-four with a law degree, is claiming that she was switched at age nine "for security reasons," The National ENQUIRER is reporting. Although Presley's lawyers have blasted Johansen's, 43, claims, The ENQUIRER has reviewed exclusive photos of the woman claiming to be the King's daughter interacting with members of the Presley family.
But the legal battle that Johansen has started isn't her only one. She is also embattled in a legal dispute with the publisher of her memoir, I, Lisa Marie: The True Story of Elvis Presley's Real Daughter, after reportedly refusing a DNA test even though she allegedly received $200,000 for the tell-all. The Swedish woman claims she was born Feb. 1, 1968, to "Priscilla Ann Beaulieu and Elvis Aaron Presley." She describes her childhood as a "fairy tale with my father as the king and myself as the pampered princess," The ENQUIRER reports.""


After Elvis died, Johansen told The ENQUIRER that she remembers very little until Beaulieu allegedly whisked her away to Europe. (Conspiracy, Source: The National Enquirer, Aug 2014)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM

My theory, if we keep tearing a piece of paper smaller and smaller and smaller.. A terrible explosion would eventually occur


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 04:00 PM

Come off it, Ed. Elvis ain't dead. Why, I saw him down the chippie last night.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:07 PM

Elvis ain't dead. Neither is Marilyn Monroe or Jimi Henrix or Janis Joplin or JFK. They -- along with everyone was said to have died in Vietnam, the crew of the USN Thresher and the USN Seawolf -- are cryogenically frozen in a Top Secret Base in Iceland. If the US is every really threatened they will be thawed out and be ready to go -- two nuclear subs, about six divisions of battle-trained troops, a good leader, and top-notch entertainers for the USO. John Wayne and Roy Rogers are also there.

Don't tell anyone or the Black Helicopters from the UN will come and take you off to you know where for you wouldn't know how long.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 10:20 PM

The only conspiracy theory I believe in is the one required to explain why Keith Richards is not dead.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 11:01 PM

BWL, it is my firm belief that ALL of the Rolling Stones have been buried - but then somebody dug them up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 11:10 PM

I personally suspect (note-not 'believe') that many conspiracy theories are glommed onto because they are just more interesting than the truth.
Then... there are folks who believe almost anything that suggests 'they'... the government, the aliens, the Commies, the [insert racial/ethnic/religious group], the media...etc... are out to control everything.
(Then of course, there are those who write books 'exposing' secrets and milk the theory for years.)

I can understand the concern over some events and the possibility that some important facts are hidden, but I cannot easily understand why folks refuse to accept clear and reasonable explanations from experts and seem to prefer wild 'what-ifs' from armchair guessers. MY 'theory' is that some people just ...like?... to analyze and gossip about it all, and it keeps them busy & interested.

(trying to think of any famous conspiracy theories that were borne out... I suppose there must be a couple)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

Or put another way, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Tall tales aren't necessarily black lies. A lovely verse from The Little Pot Stove.

"Fireman Paddy works with me
On the engines frozen cold
A stranger to the truth is he
There is no lie he hasnt told.

He told us of his gold mines
And the hearts that he had won
His crazy sense of humour shone
Just like a ray of sun."

An old workmate used to claim he had proof that we never went to the moon, that microwave ovens were a gift from aliens (this being years before Men in Black used it in their script!) and that Harold Wilson was born in Moscow.

But he was harmless. Daft, yes, but harmless.

With the Internet thingy and general dumbing down of intellect judging by what I see if I'm daft enough to turn the telly on for anything other than football, Dr Who, Top Gear or Wheeler Dealers, conspiracy theories can grow legs.

That would never do. Sheffield Utd fans can't separate fact from fiction as it is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 04:15 AM

There was an interesting programme, on UK TV last night, about 9/11. There is, of course, a widespread conspiracy ... errr ... hypothesis that after the aircraft hit, the twin towers were destroyed in controlled explosions (for some sinister reason or other). But two engineers had independently concluded that the presence of aluminium, from the two aircraft, had not been taken into account in the reports on the atrocity. Apparently, if molten aluminium comes into contact with water it is highly explosive (it forms aluminium oxide and hydrogen). The engineers suggested that conditions within the buildings, following the crashes, could have been right to produce molten aluminium and there was plenty of water present from building services and sprinkler systems. They showed that if such explosions did occur they would have been powerful enough to bring them down the two towers. Nevertheless, their request to the US authorities to examine retained wreckage for evidence in support of their HYPOTHESIS was turned down Now that's a bit sinister!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM

I didn't see the programme, Shimrod, but the fact that it was on Channel 5 says a good deal...

There's a LOT of information that suggests the aluminium hypothesis is wrong. Try starting here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

Well, Guest Ed, here's a quote from your link:

"Aluminum has a melting point of 660*C, depending on the alloy, and jet fuel burns at 980*C. With the vast amount of debris from the aircraft in the north-east corner (80% of which was aluminum – about 64,000kg), it's most likely that the molten material seen flowing from the building is molten aluminium. Truthers believe however, that molten aluminium is a silvery colour, like mercury, and does not glow orange.

To debunk this one, simply run a Google image search for 'molten aluminum'. The results shows multiple images of the stuff, glowing an orange-ish colour. The search even brings up a diagram, showing the colour of aluminium at different temperatures. What's interesting is that at 980*C (the temperature at which jet fuel burns), aluminium glows light orange, just as shown in the video."

That is NOT inconsistent with the hypothesis presented by the two engineers in last night's programme!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 05:14 AM

You're correct, Shimrod. Much to my embarrassment, I noticed that as soon as I'd posted it. My apologies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM

Apologies accepted, Ed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM

Having, perhaps unfortunately, spent most of my life working in the real world, it strikes me that most conspiracy theories require much more cooperation and coordination between diverse parties than you would generally be able to manage.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:19 AM

I agree in part, Stim, but then would be remiss not to mention the Manhattan Project.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:52 AM

Conspiracies theories are promulgated by a secret cabal of neuroscientists and financiers to distract people from the real problems of of the current moment. This is the "Brain$ Trust" and is headquartered in an abandoned secret US government missile silo outside of a small town in South Dakota.

I've already said too much.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM

Some people advocate that conspiracy theories are just theories because they would require too many people to know what's going on in order to make them work and remain secret. The reference to the Manhattan Project was to draw attention to this: more than 120,000 people were employed on the MP. Even Truman as VP of the US was unaware until he was sworn in as President.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 10:01 AM

Is that silo where the blueprints and working model of the 100MPG carburetor are hidden? (along with the x-rays of JFKs head, Jimmy Hoffa's remains, and Judge Crater's wallet?)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 10:09 AM

""Jimmy Hoffa ('s) remains""

That could possibly be misconstrued, to contribute to a new internet conspiracy theory?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 12:16 PM

Re MM:

The Kennedys did it...

http://www.idesigntimes.com/articles/5997/20130611/marilyn-monroe-bobby-kennedy-jfk-sex-tape.htm

Describing the Monroe Kennedy fight further, Otash wrote: "She was really screaming and they [Bobby Kennedy and Peter Lawford] were trying to quiet her down. She's in the bedroom and Bobby [Kennedy] gets the pillow and he muffles her on the bed to keep the neighbors from hearing." Finally, according to Otash, the Marilyn Monroe and Bobby Kennedy's fight subsided. "She finally quieted down and then he was looking to get out of there."

Although Marilyn Monroe and Bobby Kennedy's fight finally came to a close, Otash realized, in hindsight, that he had "listened to Marilyn Monroe die." Otash learned later that Marilyn Monroe was dead when Lawford requested that he remove any incriminating evidence from her house. Otash's final recordings of Monroe and the Kennedy brothers have still not been found.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 12:56 PM

Programme on the telly the other night suggesting her doc actually killed her with an injection in the heart.
Done to stop her squealing about his unethical relationship with her and the Robert Kennedy affair.
I read somewhere that a coromner said he'd only ever came across one other suicide where the body was naked and that had been in exceptional circumstances.
Whatever happened, the offish story smells of fish.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 01:03 PM

I heard the shape changing lizards killed her for hogging the limelight.

Mind you, mock ye not... Every conspiracy theory mentioned in this thread has the one vital ingredient needed..

Dozy buggers.

👽👽👽💤


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

Bill D., all of Nostradamus's REAL predictions are there as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 02:03 AM

Lincoln's assassination was part of a conspiracy. We know the names of all the conspirators, because they were caught. There are some open questions; was Mary Surratt involved? How much did Dr. Mudd know? But we know the names of Booth's fellow conspirators, and that they planned to kill Lincoln and his cabinet, because several of them told us what they knew.

I remember Watergate. John Dean couldn't keep it quiet. G.Gordon Liddy bragged about what he did.

The thing about conspiracies is that more than one person is involved. The more people who share a secret the more chances there are it won't stay secret.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:46 AM

And, then there are the people with much time on their hands, who manufacture cartoon conspiracy theories. Cartoon characters and organuzations are joined in a pllot to promote a gay-drug society to children. Many of these conspiracies are "thought-up made-up" by right-wing (nut) religious folks. One recent example is targeting the Disney movie Frozen by the National Catholic Register and a few vocal anti-gay, right-wing religious folks/ entertainement personalities (one example below)?

the Mormon blogger Kathryn Skaggs   


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM

Here in the UK, if you'd said 3 years ago:-

Jimmy Saville is a serial sex offender.

The Hillsborough disaster was a massive
police cover-up.

Margaret Thatcher intended all along to close all British coalmines.

- you would have been called a "conspiracy theorist".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:01 PM

I differentiate between organized conspiracies and just 'group think'.

Trying to assassinate Hitler was a conspiracy- police tending to not admit anything bad about 'their own' is sometimes a conspiracy, sometimes just group-think.

9/11 was a conspiracy... but if it had included the dozens (or hundreds) necessary to do everything some claim, it would have never been kept quiet.

Just suspecting something about an individual like Saville or Thatcher doesn't really seem to fit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM

Suspecting that people who complained about Saville were being sidelined and evidence hidden isn't suspecting about an individual. And there does seem to be something odd about the disappearance of Geoffrey Dicken's papers about high level child abuse, and the report data which was disappeared in Rotherham.

Which isn't what I was going to post.

Which was: setting up the concept of completely nutty, tinfoil helmeted, conspiracy theorists could be a very effective smokescreen to hide the real things. It is quite clear that throughout history there have been conspiracies, often combined with cockups, but not always.

With the Manhattan project, the context made keeping it secret much more likely than it would be in the cases of the Moon flights, which similarly involved very many people (one of whom I know).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

Saville & co aren't conspiracy. There seems to be enough out there in terms of hard facts to have out him in court had he lived. That ain't conspiracy.

Conspiracy includes not believing what happens when larger than life people or events are concerned, looking for the fantastic theory to match their fantastic persona.

It also is a term used to denote those who lie about others in order to sway opinion and try to convince people to hate them. In return they call anything nice a "liberal conspiracy." Sad but true, such scum exists.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:11 PM

"I differentiate between organized conspiracies and just 'group think'.""

And, at times there is more "following" being done by "a group" in a group think, than individual thinking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM

As my old drinkin' buddy Ben Franklin said, "Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:37 PM

Have you noticed that whenever this thread looks like it is about to drop off the bottom the page, it comes back to the top of the list again?

Spooky coincidence or conspiracy?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:43 PM

24 beer in a case.
24 hours in a day.
Coincidence, or conspiracy?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:26 PM

24 beer in a case.
24 hours in a day.
Coincidence, or conspiracy?

Neither; that's ergonomic design.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM

(trying to think of any famous conspiracy theories that were borne out... I suppose there must be a couple)

Britain assisted the US in torturing the people kidnapped by American agents after 9/11:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/11/7-things-diego-garcia-rendition-flights-documentaton-water-damage


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

jonestown 


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 12:36 PM

""After World War II, rumors circulated that German astronauts had traveled to the moon and established a top-secret facility there. Some even speculated that Adolf Hitler faked his own death, fled the planet and lived out the rest of his days in an underground lunar hideout. Connections were also drawn between flying saucer sightings—including the famous incident near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947—with the Nazis' alleged UFO development program. These theories form the basis of the science fiction novel "Rocket Ship Galileo," published by Robert A. Heinlein in 1947.""




Nazi moon colony 


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 12:44 PM

The Hollow Earth Theory 



The Hollow Earth 


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:59 PM

And let us not forget MK Ultra. Put on your tinfoil hats.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:00 PM

The Business Plot: another conspiracy theory.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Owl Glass
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:26 AM

I used to be paranoid - Then they got me!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 08:03 AM

"Even paranoids have enemies."

Kissinger


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 09:39 AM

""Governments hide problematic truths from the people (such as how much they are being spied on for example). The police close ranks to protect themselves when people die under their watch (at a football match for example). Dossiers (about child abuse in high places for example) go 'missing.'""

Those mentioned above are quite broad generalizations about organizations - greater than what many would see as a traditional conspiracy theory.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 02:30 PM

would the millennium scare come under this category, when millions of us paid out to protect our computers from the crash that was not ?.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:48 PM

pete was gullible?

Surely not........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:15 PM

The crash was avoided by lots of programmers editing many lines of code to be sure that the date didn't shut things off..(in PCs anyway... Macs were safe.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:40 AM

Now that Pete has posted,it occurs to me that the notorious religious skeptic, Musket, did not mention what some consider to be the greatest conspiracy of all time,The Passover Plot

Here's a quote from the link that summarizes it:

"the central mystery of Jesus' death and resurrection was carefully planned to fulfill biblical prophecies. His crucifixion was targeted for the day before the Jewish Passover in the knowledge that the bodies would be taken down before the sabbath. A drug administered to Jesus, perhaps in the sponge mentioned in John 19:29, slowed his heartbeat and put him in a state of suspended animation. Friends and disciples had arranged to recover his body and start reanimation efforts as soon as possible. - The plan failed when a Roman soldier ran a spear into his side (John 19:34). The aftermath had to be improvised."

You're such a slacker, Musket...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM

Oh I don't know. There are just as many conspiracy theories in Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. Come to think of it, most soap opera scripts have them.

What makes the bible so special?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 03:58 AM

Musket: "What makes the bible so special?"

Ummm...could it be that it is the world's best selling book...ever??
(True story)

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:29 AM

Actually, the world's best selling book was Chairman Mao's red book. (True story.) There are many different books calling themselves The Bible.

Although like the bible, Mao's dictat hadn't much truth between the covers... I suppose there were less things that physically couldn't happen, to be fair to him.





Goofus, have a chat with your imaginary friend, he might be able to advise you on some of your more weird notions. After all, real people have tried and failed...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:48 AM

According to the Canadian journalist, Naomi Klein, in her new book 'This Changes Everything' (2014)about the politics of climate change:

In 2013 in the US alone, the oil and gas industry spent just under $400,000 A DAY (!) lobbying Congress and government officials and doled out a record $73,000,000 in federal campaign and political donations in the 2012 election cycle.

In Canada, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers spoke with government officials 536 times between 2008 and 2012 whilst TransCanada, another fossil fuel corporation spoke 279 times. By contrast The Climate Action Network spoke only 6 times.

Klein suggests that, in the UK, "it has become increasingly difficult to discern where the oil and gas industry ends and the British government begins". She also tells us that at least 50 employees of fossil fuel companies have been placed within government, to work on energy issues in the last 4 years. They are provided free of charge and work for secondments of up to 2 years. In the first year of David Cameron's government, energy industry representatives met with officials from the Department of Energy and Climate Change roughly 11 times more frequently than with green groups.

I don't know about you, but that all sounds like a (non-theoretical) conspiracy to me - and one which, sadly, is a matter of public record. Why do we let them get away with it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 09:07 AM

That Passover Plot guest was me. You're just making excuses for slacking, Musket. The Passover Plot, if there was one, affected the whole direction of Western Civilization(if there was one).

When you bring up Chairman Mao's Little Red Book, you didn't bother to mention the Communist Conspiracy, more slacking. Do you even bother to get up in the morning?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 09:32 AM

No. Wanking feels better if you stay in bed.

Mind you, when someone posts aiming at me and can't spell "summarises" I make little mental links as to where they are coming from eh?

This passover plot. How can it be a conspiracy? For that, it has to be a theory regarding how something happened. Based on a book of fairy stories, "happened" is a product of imagination in the first place. It can only be a conspiracy if it is contained in the story. You make it read as if Jesus actually existed, as described in the novel.

Like I said, far better conspiracies laid down as part of the plot in Harry Potter and (I assume) Knobenders and Corrie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:30 PM

thankyou bill, for an intelligent answer to my question.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM

"....as if Jesus actually existed......" says musket.
somehow, I reckon, there must be many more historians that accept his existence, even if not so many accept the details and claims of the bible narrative and testimony.
reference is made to him in secular early sources, or to the church that bears his name. josephus reference to him is often claimed as a later Christian revision/addition, but apart from his works being not the only witness, the references being there, strongly suggest there must have been a Jesus , even were his claims false.
but, if the claims are true, it is doubtful that our philosophically committed skeptics will countenance such a prospect, and if they can convince themselves ,and others, that he did not even exist, they can comfort themselves the more.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:35 PM

You made little mental links as to where I'm coming from, eh? Glad you figured it out. Next time you're in the neighborhood, drop by. We can head over to Walmart and get some Cheez Wiz. I'll make Nachos. And don't worry, I've got plenty of Bud in the fridge.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM

Come on pete, quote my whole sentence eh? I said "as in the novel." There appears to be recorded proof of a political agitator who the local chiefs wanted keeping quiet and the Romans obliged, and this would appear to be the bloke the Jesus myth was built on.

The "as in the novel" covers the things that can't really happen, mainly because they were borrowed from earlier mythology in the first place. You can't be the son of anybody other than a man and a woman, with sex taking place, up till about 40 years ago. You can't turn water into wine. You can't tell a dead man to come back to life if he actually was dead. You can say your Dad is a God, only Chris Waddle's kids can say that with conviction. You can't be crucified and come back to life. The Romans didn't fuck about when it came to executions, they were quite good at it.

So.. You can't have Stim's passover plot described as a conspiracy either. Conspiracies in novels have to be in the novel itself, otherwise they are at best commentary and at worst plagiarism.

Stim.. When I said "coming from" did you think I meant geographically? Ok, gave me a chuckle.

(Bud? Tried it once. I'll give it a miss if you don't mind. I like beer though if you have any. Walmart own Morrisons over here. I am sure we can get real food, although I hear they do sell processed corn snacks for poor people.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

Walmart doesn't own Morrisons. An ex-Walmart manager is on the Morrison's team. Walmart owns Asda.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM

As you were. Thanks for that. I did mean Asda. The other one got in my mind because I am picking up some dry cleaning from them later today...

I think it is Sainsburys who deliver our groceries. I call at a Tesco just off the motorway if we need anything in the meantime.

All these different named supermarkets selling the same make of baked beans.. It's a conspiracy I tell you....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM

Though it might not have been clear, I was making a joke. We do that sometimes when we need a break from being self-righteous. Not often, though. Just to be clear, all of it was a joke. Right down to the Bud.

The part about the gun rack in my truck would have been a joke if I'd actually said it, but I didn't, so it wasn't, and I must have been serious.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:29 AM

Does Walmart sell spray on cheese perchance?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 05:20 AM

MusketThere appears to be recorded proof of a political agitator who the local chiefs wanted keeping quiet and the Romans obliged, and this would appear to be the bloke the Jesus myth was built on.

There's actually virtually no recorded proof that the biblical Jesus ever existed. Josephus was at best recounting stories about Jesus that were then circulating (and nobody denies that by AD 90, when Josephus was writing, such stories were circulating) and at worst is a later insertion. Other than that there's a mention in Tacitus, but he is only mentioning something that he has heard...ie, that the current sect called Christians believe that such a person existed and was condemend to death by Pilate. No evidence as such for a historical person.

There are *no* contemporary sources at all which mention Jesus' existence during his supposed lifetime...which is pretty incredible when you consider that the gospels mention him being followed by "innumerable" hordes of people, that his fame was known far and wide, and that he was a thorn in the side of both the Jewish and Roman establishments. Someone like Philo-Judaeus, who was in Jerusalem at the time when Jesus was supposed to be having such an impact on everyone, is totally silent about him, though his writings mention other people of the period who had far less impact than the gospels attribute to Jesus.

Timings and contradictions in the Gospels themselves are rife.Matthew says Jesus was born when Herod was King of Judea. Luke says he was born when Quirinius was Governor of Syria. He could not have been born during a joint period of administration of these two rulers because Herod died in the year 4 B.C and Quirinius didn't become Governor of Syria until ten years later. Any census conducted under Quirinius' rule would have to have occurred at least 10 years after Herod could have arranged for the killing of boy children!

As for Censuses: Roman censuses did NOT require people to return to the towns of their birth, but were enumerated in the towns where they lived and worked. So if Joseph and Mary were living in Nazareth, that's where they would have been assessed for the census, with no need at all to travel to Bethlehem. We also know from surviving Roman documents that the census conducted in 6 AD (10 years after Herod died) was for Judea only, and did not include Galilee.

Neither is there any other extant record that Herod (who died before this census that *didn't* require people to travel away from home) had a large number of boy children slaughtered...something that other writers of the period would surely have remarked on, it being a fairly major thing to occur.

We can go all the way through the gospels like this, finding large amounts of information that is there for effect/ propaganda purposes, but that does not stack up with what we know to be historically or legally accurate (eg Jesus' supposed quotation about the status of a wife divorcing her husband...made at a time when wives *had* no right to initiate a divorce). Or the whole ludicrous legality of the trial, betrayal and execution which mixes up Jewish and Roman legal processes in a way which is almost inconceivable could have really occurred.

The simple truth is that the four Gospels are historically worthless. They abound in contradictions. There is very little in them that can be depended upon as true, while there is much in them that we certainly know to be false, and that other than the Gospels, there is virtually no evidence for the historical existence of this person.

The Talmud has 2 mentions of a "Jeshua": There are to a Jeshua bar Pandira, stoned to death and then hung on a tree at some unspecified date, and to a Jeshua ben Stada, stoned to death and hung on a tree at Lydda sometime between 100AD and 130AD. Niether of these could be the "Jesus" of the gospels.

The only real contemporary evidence for the existence of a historical prophet or "holy" person of the period is the mention in various of the Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls of someone called "The Teacher".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

""Does Walmart sell spray on cheese perchance?""

I am curious as to what you have a desire to spray it on?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:11 AM

Rob. You'll be telling me next that Middke Earth doesn't exist. Yet if you go into a branch of Games Worshop, they'll probably give you a postcode to put in your satnav. Granted, they don't know much about girlfriends or social skills but Middle Earth? Historians the lot of 'em.

So I take it that even the bit about a bloke called Jesus who didn't like the corruption of the locals who did well under the Romans isn't built on known facts?

Wow.

Even rational people tend to accept the myth was built on documentary evidence of a bloke existing who got cult status after his death, a bit like Ron Hubbard.

So if a Christian tries to tell me anything, I can put my hand up to their face and and say "you lied to me as a child, you twat."

How interesting.....

Oy TC Keith! Any more fairy stories about WW1, Palestine or public health epidemiology you want to retract?!


Ed. You tell me what they use spray on cheese for. I'm as curious as the next fine diner.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:28 AM

"You tell me what they use spray on cheese for"

Beats me, (I never used it, never saw it). But, consider the multi uses for WD40.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:34 AM

Musket.... :-)

L. Ron Hubbard is a great example of how a complete (and verifiably false, even allowing for the litigous nature of Scientology) mythology can be built of the most insubstantial foundations!

Me, I'm waiting for Ragnarok!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:39 AM

Perhaps now isn't the time to point out my Mr Hubbard comparison wasn't as random as most of my uttering.



WD40? Certainly tastes better than Monteray Jack.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM

A perspective on one, so called, cheese product.

No cheese, cheese products 


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 09:35 AM

What a friend we have in Cheeses,
Christ Almighty what a pal . . .

Agent Orange was a conspiracy theory at one time. We all know that was bullshit, right?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM

Blessed be the cheesemakers!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:30 AM

The other day a lady on the bus asked me I "knew Jesus". When I told her that I had no religious convictions and was, in fact, an agnostic (I'll think about believing when you produce some evidence)she went off to sit elsewhere on the bus. That could be, of course, because I had just farted (although can't recall doing so) but probably because she didn't want to sit next to an 'atheist'. So much for Christian tolerance! God (sic) knows what she would have done if I had been aware of then, and had told her about, Rob Naylor's piece above!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

I'd shout to the others near her to budge up because Jesus sought the company of prostitutes, or however the story goes...

By the way, don't go blowing the myth too quickly. I get a laugh around Easter time in the folk clubs, doing my "Jesus on a rubber cross" routine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:21 PM

I wonder who these doctors of religion are, from whom rob takes such assurance to bolster his unbelief in even the person of Christ . I can certainly cite many whose relevant qualifications apply, who vouch for his historicity. but to be fair, it should be the data/ evidence, not the numbers and authority arguments that count.......or I should be doing the same as the evolutionists , in arguing from that angle.
an argument from silence is hardly conclusive, and that argument assumes that political, secular commentators will make much mention of religious issues. however, reference to Jesus and/or his followers are not so far removed, and are close enough to be challenged at the time. there are more than rob concedes...
pliny the younger, writing to emperor Trajan
the Syrian,mara ben-serapion [british museum]
tacitus
Suetonius in -the life of Claudius.
josephus...there is an incidental ref beside the contested ref.
the Talmud contains hostile ref [ which makes it all the more valuable !]
most of the foregoing if not all, may not be written in Jesus' lifetime here, but might well be closer to the time than many other events and persons that are accepted as historical.....as, for those, there are no philosophical filtering considerations.

there have been many claims that details in the bible were wrong, but then archaeology has confirmed them. it is now known that quirinius held relevant office on two occasions, and so lukes setting seems to be confirmed. wait long enough, and chances are other details will be too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:33 PM

Busses can be kind of dicey. I'd rather have a Christian sit next to me than a drunk or crackhead with a knife, which, as I understand it, has gotten popular in the UK these days.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:06 PM

"Busses can be kind of dicey. I'd rather have a Christian sit next to me than a drunk or crackhead with a knife, ..."

My experience is that you're more likely to be driven mad by idiots shouting into their mobile phones ... in English or Polish or Croatian or Latvian or Hausa or Somalian or Arabic or Urdu or Bengali or Thai or Korean or Mandarin. Then there's oafs, playing hip-hop (or whatever grotesque noise is fashionable these days) through 'leaky' headphones. I think we are in need of a third 'quiet' deck on buses ...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

""If the Kennedy assassination doesn't interest you, and you've got a few extra years on your hands, you might want to look into the debate over who wrote William Shakespeare's plays.""




Shakespeare 


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 05:38 PM

if people are going to talk into their cell phones, I prefer that it is in a language that I do not understand.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:12 PM

"if people are going to talk into their cell phones, I prefer that it is in a language that I do not understand."

You wouldn't say that if you'd sat on the 86 bus, from Chorlton to Manchester Piccadilly, the other day listening to some bloke bellowing, at the top of his voice, into his phone, in some obscure sub-continental language! He never knew how close he came to having to have that phone surgically extracted from his rectum! But I'm not prejudiced, I'd happily shove a phone up an Englishman's arse if he's as noisy and as ill-mannered as that bloke!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:27 PM

Err.. What archeology has confirmed the bible pete?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:46 PM

""What archeology has confirmed the bible pete?""

I can confirm it. I was recently in a Motel near Boston and there were two versions in the writing table drawer in the room that I rented. So, there it is-first hand evidence that the Bible exists.And, to confirm, I saw it before I relaxed to an evening drink, not after.

After the drink, I wondered, why do Motel Bibles not have yellow pages? But, I digress.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:59 AM

Yes, yes. But these days, you don't need yellow pages to find a carpenter. Just google map one near your location.

What was that song again?

"If I were a carpenter
I'd screw you to the bed"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:52 PM

I share your pain, Shimrod. I would not have appreciated that situation at all. My point is just that if you don't understand what is being said, however loud and obnoxious it may be, you won't remember it. And the content is likely to be even more annoying than the volume.

Two years and one month ago, I was riding one of the Metro busses to a remote suburb. It was a 2.5 hour ride. About 45 minutes from the end, a young woman, who was talking on her phone, got on. She spoke in a loud monotone, and was describing, in great detail, the work she had just finished, which was cleaning an office building. She interrupted herself at regular intervals to read the name of each street that we crossed.

I don't treasure that memory, but it sticks with me, because I understood what she was saying.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:02 PM

wasn't there supposed to be some health scare from excessive mobile use , or did that get remedied. for better or [probably] worse, though, seems to be firmly entrenched in the culture.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM

It was not exactly a health scare, pete. The way I heard it is that it could cure excess religiosity. Even die-hard religious fundamentalists have woken up after a days texting to find that they had mysteriously turned into atheists! Just a rumour mind - but if I were you, I'd go easy on smartphone use!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:22 AM

I'd advise starting with a keypad Nokia, "smart" phone may be a bit advanced....

On a serious level, the scare stories were genuine concerns in that they had to be looked at and investigated. Don't forget, this was a time, only fifteen years ago, where superstition mean't people thought mobile phones in general use, as opposed to faulty, could interfere with hospital equipment, light petrol vapour on the forecourt.

Using their cue from research looking over twenty years of children living in houses under electricity pylons, The Dept of Health accepted a report from Kings that said no evidence supports an issue regarding the phones themselves.

However, a couple of points to ponder;

Hospitals have somewhat reluctantly freed up mobile use, with ongoing concerns over peace and quiet for others. No different from trains but could be 24/7 annoyance! Bear in mind that clinical staff have carried bleepers for years and hospitals with tall buildings have made good money out of hosting mobile masts on their roof.

Before looking at random sparking (loose battery normally) don't forget many people get a shock when touching a car they just got out of. I'd ban nylon clothing before getting around to phones...

Mobile phones affecting children's' development? They certainly stifle social interaction and the need to get out and physically play, a key ingredient in any animal's development. The use rather than the technology methinks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:39 PM

well, musket, the intelligent reply coming from you.....even the jibe, as I have never bothered to learn how to text !.
mind you, shimrods post did make me laugh, especially as I was reading a science mag article today....by an atheist [!}, that there aren't really any true atheists !......catching up with the bible ! , though of course an evolutionary spin was given as the explanation


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:51 PM

Did you ever learn to think, never mind text?

You see, you work on the basis we are all superstitious but some decide not to be. Whilst some of us were fortunate enough to be brought up without being abused. We weren't forced to believe in nonsense from the outset.

No such thing as an atheist. Just different levels of imagination.

Keep praying though. You never know eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw dangling only by underpants e
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:40 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:49 PM

Should we call the "tighty-white" 911 line for you Mr. Shaw? Or, would you prefer we send over some rusty wire cutters, to lower your sorry ass down?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,...underpant elastic from fence...
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:50 PM

God knows how that happened, but don't delete as you'll ruin the moment...


What's a " true atheist" when it's at 'ome?

There are no agnostics. There are lily-livered fence-sitters who need a bit of insurance and there are people who don't give a damn. I despise the former and applaud the latter. The former do not deserve to be legitimised by the term "agnostic." The latter don't mind whether you call them agnostic or even Mickey Mouse. That's healthy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:52 PM

And that was me. Just call me Nicholas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:51 PM

If you want to see his privates, I know where they are
I know where they are, I know where they are
If you want to see his privates, I know where they are
Hanging on the old barbed wire.

(Sorry, couldn't help it.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 08:16 PM

Didn't take long for a new conspiracy theory to develop- actually, several

Comet is really alien contact

Makes one wonder...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 08:30 PM

I fail to see it as a conspiracy. Theory: one of many I suppose.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 09:09 PM

NASA is claimed to be hiding the truth... a conspiracy among "those who know 'the truth'", I guess.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:54 AM

Are all British Historians colluding in a plot to suppress the truth about WW1?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:10 AM

""The Sci-Fi Writers' War74336017They predicted and possibly inspired the conflict in the Ukraine, and now they're fighting it.""


Berezin: War 2010: The Ukrainian Front and War 2011: Against NATO.  


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:22 AM

I doubt historians need to collude and plan whilst ever there are thick cunts willing to believe bollocks eh Keith?




Read faster than that please, dear reader, I can't see this post lasting too long.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 09:02 AM

It is true that I believe historians even over you Musket on matters of History.
I doubt there is really a dark conspiracy going on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 11:21 AM

I tend to believe fishmongers on matters of plaice for that matter, but watch out Keith; just because it says Andrews Liver Salts on the sides of buses doesn't mean they stop at every shit house.

Usually, people alter their perspective in the light of fresh evidence, not a plea from a government fed up of military leaders being seen to be not fit for purpose when they prefer them to be infallible.

Like I said, the timing seemed rather conveniently around the time the forces could now be sued for failing to too look after their employees in the same way as any other employer. We can't have their historical reputation being dragged out in every claim now can we? Far better that they weren't incompetent, arrogant, indifferent, callous butchers after all....

In any event, helps us focus on Johnny Foreigner as the only culprits....

ZZZZZ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 31 May 8:36 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.