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No man's land protest

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


Related threads:
Lyr Req: The green fields of France (39)
Lyr Req: Green fields of france PARODY (27)
No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version? (89)
Info: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
Greenfields of France parody... (34)
Alternative lyrics to 'Willie McBride -Flower (7)
Green Fields of France (48)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France Parody (14)
Lyr/Chords Req: Green Fields of France (Engli (26)
Lyr/Chords Req: No Man's Land (15)
Lyr Req: Parody on Green Fields of France (26)
Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
(origins) Green Fields of France (10)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France^^^ (22)
Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
Lyr Add: Not Willie McBride (7)
Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 14 - 10:22 AM
Musket 11 Nov 14 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 14 - 12:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 14 - 12:22 PM
Musket 11 Nov 14 - 12:48 PM
Musket 11 Nov 14 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 14 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 14 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,AC 11 Nov 14 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 14 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,AC 11 Nov 14 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,AC 11 Nov 14 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 14 - 05:50 PM
Acorn4 11 Nov 14 - 06:28 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Nov 14 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 14 - 06:54 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 14 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Rahere 11 Nov 14 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 Nov 14 - 08:00 PM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Selby 12 Nov 14 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 12 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 12 Nov 14 - 05:27 AM
Johnny J 12 Nov 14 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 06:51 AM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 07:13 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 12 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Nov 14 - 08:10 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Desi C 12 Nov 14 - 09:00 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 09:06 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Sol 13 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Rahere 13 Nov 14 - 10:01 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Nov 14 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Sol 14 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 14 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM
Musket 14 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM
Teribus 14 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 14 Nov 14 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 14 - 08:41 AM
Teribus 14 Nov 14 - 09:01 AM
GUEST 14 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM
Acorn4 14 Nov 14 - 09:55 AM
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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 10:22 AM

Teribus - that's ok.. my bubble burst many years ago.. I can cope with it...

I'm certainly no historian, but I am aware of some of the gist what you point out, if not the detailed facts,
contradicting my hyperbolic statememt..

I confess I was guilty of indulging in the rash debating style
of a newly issue concious precocious 14 year old,
just to take the piss out of GUEST,AC and his ilk's mode of communication..

[I could/should have been more circumspect and simply said
"Being mustard gassed or blown to atoms is a bloody outrage !!!", or something similarly emotive..]

Though I still hold firm in my personal belief that conscription is a deplorable,
[perhaps even evil] manifistation of authoritarian state control & cohersion...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 11:49 AM

Terms such as remembrance and "lest we forget" seem to be lost in some weird translation.

Whilst most are agreed that we recognise the awful carnage and waste, there are still some who think war is noble.

I wonder how many dead young men would, if they knew, weep at the sight of the last ceramic poppy being laid at The Tower at 11.00am today?

We put a 13 year old child in a soldier's uniform, and surrounded by soldiers, we made him stand and salute like a soldier and lay the poppy.

Just in case we run out of cannon fodder, we glorify that which Western civilisation should be deeply ashamed of. If it is about "never again" have him wearing a pair of jeans and a hoody. Not a modern soldier's uniform. A WW1 uniform maybe, but the message that we haven't learned is typical of war mongering generals.

Soldiering is a professional choice, of free will and based on whatever the soldier bases his or her choice on. Not some jingoistic sense of pride and duty.

We will never learn whilst it is military mindset that leads the remembering.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:20 PM

Back in my teens and early 20s I was fanatically anti military...

I'm a grown up now.

My views are tempered by reality, maturity and pragmatism

I can now reconcile my lifelong pacifism and humanism, with a respect for military personnel;
and accptance that in times of dire crisis, and only as a last resort, military action is a viable option.

I still opt out of buying and wearing a poppy, but no longer childishly disdain those who do.

In a different existence, if I had not been born with flat feet, allergies, and bad eyesight,
who knows, I'd might even consider joining up;
as I find aspects of a modern army lifestyle of self discipline, honour,and physical fitness training
near in accord with my own personal values....???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:22 PM

The boy was an army cadet in his own uniform.
If you had attended any town or village's service of remembrance you would have seen many such boys and girls alongside scouts, Cubs, Brownies, Guides, Boys and Girls Brigades, St.John's Ambulance and others.
You would stamp them all out?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:48 PM

Don't tell me about village services of remembrance, I know as much about them as you do. The difference being I don't thank my imaginary friend for letting them die. I see more temporal culprits.

Putting children in soldiers' uniforms, however much cadet games are fun and character building, is convenient for those who see military as more than just a necessary evil. The sight at the Tower today was a sight that shows we haven't learned, we are busy rewriting futile carnage and pretend soldiers in their armchairs can carry on with their fuzzy feeling of pride.

PFR speaks of respect for military personnel. Keith thinks you have to see bombing civilians as legitimate before you can show respect. Those who see the military as something we have to have rather than want to have are showing respect for the person, not the blood soaked badge. Pretending they were well led and the war was somehow noble just adds insult to their sad sacrifice.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:53 PM

Oh, and by the way, back when the local vicar where I used to live used to invite me to sing it each Remembrance service, I sang the whole song.

The old soldiers, and we had a few WW1 veterans back then, used to love the song and afterwards over a pint at "The Soldiers" I used to sing it again. (Cheapest beer in town.)

Funny how nobody came up telling me the song was wrong.... In fact quite the opposite.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:32 PM

So should uniformed youth groups be excluded from acts of remembrance?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:39 PM

"So should uniformed youth groups be excluded from acts of remembrance?"

.. of course not...

But it does depend on why they are present and what their presence is meant to signify...???


Back when I was a boy in the late 60s, someone was trying to recruit me into the scouts.
Even then I had a deep suspicion of what they were about and what they were up to..????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:04 PM

Punkfolkrocker writes:

   "The likes of GUEST,AC... anti war protesters and
   rabid lefties... PC gone mad. They are ...a complete
   liability for whatever cause they are 'fighting for,
   and self defeating for whatever their objective may be.
   It really is unconforatable (sic) to know we are 'fighting'
   on the same side."

Somebody throw a bucket of water on this guy before he spontaneously combusts or bursts a blood vessel. I suppose even complete arseholes are entitled to their point of view but I'm intrigued to know what possible struggle we could be fighting on the same side in (don't bother to reply to that PFR... it's a rhetorical question).

I expressed my anger and outrage (at Joss Stone's musically dreadful and politically reprehensible effort) in language which was proportionate and reasoned even if it was blunt. This idiot seems to think that simple abuse and piss taking is a better course of action.

If people liked Stone's ludicrous mistreatment of Bogle's 'Green Fields of France' then I don't denounce or condemn them for that (poor musical taste isn't a crime and there are far worse sins) but the act of editing out the entire point and climax of the song was a political one and we should examine (and condemn) the motivations for that.

Everything happens in a context and the context of this incident is the Tory campaign that has been going on all year (launched by Michael Gove and Max Hastings) to rewrite history and portray WWI as a noble crusade against oppression and German military domination and for freedom and liberty. It was no such thing. The 850,000 British and Commonwealth troops who died (and the hundreds of thousands more injured and maimed) were not fighting for their own interests but for the selfish interests of their rulers: competing for markets and colonies. Eric Bogle's lyrics make the point that their sacrifice was in vain and this is what Stone and her collaborators have edited out of the song. This has been done for a political purpose, not just an artistic one, and that is what we should focus on.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:18 PM

I'm going to depart from my usual policy of not being directly insulting to people..

GUEST,AC you are a ridiculous deluded self indulgent wanker...

what, you gonna tell us next..

Josh Stone is covert operative for M16 ...??????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:28 PM

Make that a bucket of ice water. The guy's obviously over heating.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:36 PM

Punkfolkrocker writes:

   "I'm going to depart from my usual policy of not being directly insulting to people.."

I suspect the irony is entirely unintentional.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:50 PM

"Eric Bogle's lyrics make the point that their sacrifice was in vain and this is what Stone and her collaborators have edited out of the song. This has been done for a political purpose, not just an artistic one, and that is what we should focus on."

It's only a song... Eric Bogle is only a songwriter and performer...


It's not a sacred text... He's not a prophet...

get a grip..


Dropping a couple of verses, is no where near as sinister a political purpose
as for example, making a journalist or miltant activist 'disapear'...

Keep it in perspective and proportion.. pillock...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:28 PM

This is how wars start!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:44 PM

I find myself much agreeing with guest AC.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:54 PM

..well innit just great being a lefty Richard..

the tories can always rely on us finding petty trivial issues to waste time arguing bitterly about amonst ourselves,
rather than concentrating our mutual energies on the common priority
of keeping them out of power...😩


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:17 PM

"I find myself much agreeing with guest AC."
Me too
I managed to take time out to listen to Stone's load of schmaltz - truly dreadful - it totally sanitizes the war and the fate of the people who died - which appears to be the whole object of the 'Remembrance industry', certainly if this is how they have chosen to remember those who died.
Bogle's song - "only a song" - not really - not unless you regard, say, 'Guernica' or those magnificent Goya 'Disasters of War' paintings as "only pictures".
It is his take on the war - totally neutralised by that insulting interpretation.
"Petty - trivial" not really P.F.R. - that war is seen as it really is, without dressing it in pretty, long frocks and making it sound 'sweet', is fairly important
That's what I call is pissing on the memory of those who died.
The war wasn't "sad" - it was a massive crime against humanity - the first of a whole string of them committed in global proportions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:52 PM

@Teribus 11 Nov 14 - 08:37 AM
You obviously didn't live in the UK in the 1950s/60s. Harry Enfield's take on the Public Service style was funny because it was so damned accurate, these were the people who'd been military in WWII and thought that that gave them a sacred mandate to continue to be Captain Mainwarings until the end of their born days. The soldiers voted the Tories out in 1945, but couldn't get rid of their influence until cockups like the Irish bombing campaign and Bloody Sunday made the military command wake up. I was in Occifer Training during that period, and it was very much like the Army in 1941, when the old timers where booted out for having schlerotic thinking. Frank Kitson's work on terrorism was almost a litmus paper for it, if you thought it was crap you were out - thankfully so, because it clued us up to where we are now.
So when did the Military take over? WWII, and their fault was they never let go, the only miracle is we didn't have a Revolution in 68 like the French did - but then again, the use of D-Notices was prolific. This is still part of that heritage, as we haven't finished the job yet.

Once upon a time the Military used to vie for the honour of receiving the first shot in a battle. Bugger the poor sod who actually got shot. It's this same kind of Redcoat BS that they still have stuck up their arses. The Guards Division still wear the redcoat. Heck, the party at the Tower was stiffened with ruddy Tudors, bestockinged and all. Pretty they may be, but is pretty what builds the peace?

The military in every democracy have a fine line to walk between guarding the Nation and bullying it. The first question is, who is the nation? People like our beloved PM would doubtless say big business, the oldtimers Debretts (we fired that bunch from commanding the Army in 1871, but have they got it yet? Like hell - the Officer Corps still has its subtleties in whether you can afford the kit or not - we may have stopped purchasing commissions, but officers spend instead on comic-opera dress uniforms. Brigadier expletive deleted Gerald Grosvenor being a case in point).

We have eased their grip - but what we must beware of is allowing them to impose it again. The US Homeland Bill and the equivalent jiddery=pokery here are favourite toys in that direction - do you think it by chance that the abuse of anti-terrorism legislation by local Councils only produced a slapped wrist?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 08:00 PM

Jim -

That war was one of the single most dreadful crimes against humanity in all of history.
Surely no one with any sense would disagree.

Those powerful paintings ? Yes in the ultimate greater scheme of things, are only pictures..

It's people that mattter, who can make any positive difference.

A song or a painting, may help rally and motivate.
But it's not the be all and end all.

Eric Bogle may or may not be a great poet/songwriter.
But he does not have a monopoly on expressing that war is atrocious.

Or needs to be elevated so highly on a pedestal by sycophantic acolytes.

I admit, as I am getting older, I am much less patient with 'activists' who are more obsessed with
arts and media representation issues,
than using their time and energy to get actively involved in,
for example, ground level campaining to improve pay and conditions & and training for care home workers.. etc..

Those more mundane utilitarian issues that truly matter...

I trust you, with your historical & political perspective can distinguish this,
and understand where I'm coming from on this present montain/molehill - storm/teacup...

.. and when all is said and done, for a wider population of listeners,
that piss poor [truncated] Josh Stone recording, still functions as a reasonably effective anti war song.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:06 AM

Well Keith? Are you going to wade in when others point out your odd support for a ludicrous rewrite of history or just wait for my comments as usual?

😴


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:31 AM

Whilst the song is not for me and has been butchered. The song was used as a vehicle for the singers style and to appeal to her fan base/young people. If some young people hunt out the complete song then it will not have been in vain. Wars have been fought to allow freedom of choice and protest and this rendition of the song proves it not my choice and I reserve the right not to buy it.
Keith


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

Musket, I get my History from historians, while you think you know better.
You don't.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM

Looks like we're taking sides on this one. How we do love to bicker amongst ourselves. Well, for what it's worth, I'm with PFR. And with Eric Bogle, for that matter, who takes an admirably gracious view of the whole hurricane in a pisspot.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:27 AM

.. actually, I slid too far in the direction of trying to be fair and appease Eric Bogle fanboys,,,,

The Stone / Beck record is not 'piss poor' a I stated when very tired late last night..

It's merely mediocre...


I've no wish to disrespect Eric Bogle - he has writen a very successful song,
and you'd hope the royaltys from multiple artist performances and recordings
go nicely towards supplementing his pension.

The statement he has issued shows him to be a top bloke with a far more rational & forgiving attitude on this issue
than his more fervent supporters and ideologically oportunistic bandwagon jumpers....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:46 AM

I've listened to the song but, while not over impressed by this version, I don't regard it to be such a big issue. It's true that the meaning and overall feel of the song has been changed from "angry" to "sad" by the musical arrangements and omission of the last verse.

However, this song has been the subject of abuse and butchering for as long as I can remember. It is frequently sung as a boozy sing along song in pubs throughout the world and I don't believe that many of the drunken punters ever bother to listen to half the words anyway or think about them long enough to consider the true meaning of the song. So, in these situations, it makes no real difference whether all the verses are there or not.

As for the deliberate sanitising of the song, I won't argue that this wasn't the case. Quite probably. However, songs get truncated and altered all the the time (Only folkies want to actually add verses!). So, this isn't that unusual in itself.

I agree that we should respect Eric Bogle's own views on the matter. He certainly has some reservations but is certainly not as uptight as many of the posters here.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

In the folk tradition (which I believe Eric Bogle subscribes to) minor edits and alterations to suit the tempo or style of a particular singer are acceptable, but to delete half the song to deliberately remove its core meaning and message is grossly insulting and offensive in the extreme.

All part of the Folk Process I guess, which knows no ideological boundaries. First thing to go in a song are the more laboured conceits of the original writer, the core meaning and message if you like, which are wholly irrelevant to the individual experience of a song in a wider societal context where such heavy handed sermonising is collectively frowned upon in favour of a more pragmatic approach to such matters.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

GUEST,Rahere:

"I still say focus on the future. What kind of world do you want and how do you intend to get there? Yes, if you forget the lessons of the past you're bound to repeat them in the future, but learn the lessons of the past and don't wallow in it."

The Festival of Remembrance, Remembrance Day and observation of the two minutes silence at 11.00hrs on the 11th November – have got nothing whatsoever to do with "wallowing in the past" as you put it – they have on the other hand got a great deal to do with honouring a promise made roughly 95 years ago. It is not something that "The British" are particularly maudlin' about – doubt that then go over to Belgium and visit the Menin Gate Memorial in the town of Ypres around 20:00hrs when buglers from the local Fire Brigade conduct a "Last Post" Ceremony, carried out uninterrupted every day since 2nd July 1928 (Although during the German occupation Belgian troops shifted the ceremony temporarily to the Brookwood Military Cemetery in Surrey). On the evening that Ypres was liberated during the Second World War the buglers from the Fire Brigade resumed the ceremony at the Menin Gate Memorial while there was still fighting going on inside the town – The reason that they do it was out of gratitude and because they made a solemn promise to those who gave their lives in defence of the town between 1914 and 1918 that they would do it.

"It's a tendency in the folk world to live in the past"

I certainly do not, although I would be interested if you could tell me how that could be done.

"…..even more so in the Military, when the need to justify oneself to the beancounters is almost all in what you've done and not what you're doing, but even so, it's only a part of the real world and it's out of proportion."

The military thankfully have their traditions service by service and in the Army Regiment by Regiment and Corps by Corps. These traditions have their place and are very useful when it comes to bonding a group of disparate strangers into a cohesive unit, in being introduced to and informed of these traditions and being taught to follow and accept them, the newcomers are brought into "the family", a family that you never leave.

The importance of tradition? When faced with the evacuation of the Freyberg's ANZACS from Crete in the face of overwhelming enemy air superiority concerns were raised by the Army about potential naval losses that would be incurred – Admiral Cunningham's response was simple – "The Navy will not let the Army down – It takes three years to build a ship, it takes three centuries to build a tradition – the evacuation will continue as planned". If that is the result of "wallowing in it" then perhaps we should do more of it, not less. Don't knock it it has produced results that have astounded the world.

"when I was young, it was just Remembrance Sunday, now it's 11th as well and it's getting to be weeks either side of it too. That's morose to the point of sickness."

Well if that is your recollection then whilst you were in "Occifer Training" (RMA Sandhurst??) they sorely neglected your education:

Originally both Remembrance Sunday and the two minutes silence at 11:00 on the 11th November were observed with all traffic coming to a halt in the streets. The latter lapsed but was reintroduced after a campaign for its reintroduction was mounted in the 1990s. It does not "drag on" for weeks either side.

"The dead gave their lives so you should live, not spend all your days moping."

I can assure you that I most certainly do not spend my days "moping" and I do not know any that do.

"The women they left behind became the maiden aunts of my youth, and are now gone."

AND?? Your point being??

"Our generation lost 453 in Afghanistan, and 179 in Iraq, with 47 in the Gulf War. The order of magnitude is completely different, and whilst there is no moral difference between one and a million, the effect on the population is different in real terms."

The Gulf War; Afghanistan and Iraq were international "policing" actions to which the UK contributed troops – they were NOT Wars as the First and Second World Wars were. Cannot imagine why you did not mention Malaya, Kenya, Suez, Cyprus, Kuwait, Aden, Dhofar, Borneo, Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Kosovo and Sierre Leone? "Our generation" lost a damned sight more than in the conflicts you mentioned.

"And to come back to the core of the meme, to do this, they cheat and con."

Sorry you've lost me. Who is cheating who out of what and who is conning who? The meme as you term it was drawn up and agreed by those who had been fortunate enough to live through it, who had lost close family members and loved ones – who better to detail how those who gave their lives should be remembered – it should not be a moving feast to be open to alteration by those who came after and never experienced it merely because of "convenience" – the 1990s campaign illustrates that – it is what honouring and remembering is all about.

"….my respects to them will be my own, and not this. And that, I would venture, is how it should be, because then it will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

Should that read:

"….my respects to them will be my own, as I see fit and as is convenient to me, and not this. And that, I would venture, is how it should be, because it is more convenient to me, then it will be the truth as far as I can see it, the whole truth as I chose to see it, and nothing else is worth considering."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:51 AM

Musket:

"there are still some who think war is noble."

WHO??

"I wonder how many dead young men would, if they knew, weep at the sight of the last ceramic poppy being laid at The Tower at 11.00am today?"

All if not the great majority of them.

"We put a 13 year old child in a soldier's uniform, and surrounded by soldiers, we made him stand and salute like a soldier and lay the poppy."

No WE didn't. If you asked that 13 year old you would find that he voluntarily joined the Army Cadet Corps with the express permission of his Parents, that he was proud to do so and honoured to stand as the representative of our youngest generation willing to serve, alongside representatives of all former British servicemen and those currently serving to honour and remember the British servicemen who died during the First World War – the ceramic poppies at the Tower of London are to commemorate soldiers, sailors and airmen killed in the Great War – nothing "civilian" about it so it is eminently suitable that the last poppy was placed there by a representative of our youngest generation. That is why having him "wearing a pair of jeans and a hoody" would not have been appropriate.

"Just in case we run out of cannon fodder, we glorify that which Western civilisation should be deeply ashamed of."

Pray tell what is it that "Western Civilisation" should be deeply ashamed of?

The advances in medical science introduced by us that have saved the lives of millions all over the world?

The promotion of world trade?

The abolition of slavery? – although admittedly as we have retreated back into our own part of the world slavery is again sadly on the increase

Driving Piracy from the trade routes of the world? – but once again as we have withdrawn the pirates have returned (I can remember someone predicting that years ago in the 1960s when Healey came out with the withdrawal from east of Suez)

Living up to our treaty obligations irrespective of cost, and in doing so succeeded in defeating both fascism and communism?

The humanitarian assistance that we unstintingly give time and time again, only to be castigated and abused for doing it? Where are Russia and China when it actually comes to helping out?

" typical of war mongering generals."

Care to name one.

"We will never learn whilst it is military mindset that leads the remembering."

What military mindset?? But taking that point at face value it would be a bit difficult that Musket as the vast majority of those being remembered are military – the military are the de facto majority shareholders when it comes to losing people in armed conflict and as such are better placed to undertake what is required to remember their comrades – if you doubt that Musket here are the figures for the two world wars:

First World War – UK military deaths 888,246; Civilian deaths 16,829

Second World War – UK military deaths 383,800; Civilian deaths 67,100


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:13 AM

Feeling particularly proud today Terribulus?

You might want to let your waffle and nonsense flow over into the patriotism thread. Sounds right up your street, fool.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM

I think what people think in regard to war is down to the individual but I found this quote from Harry Patch who had been the last surviving Briitsh army veteran prior to his death in 2011. Obviously not all of the soldiers would have thought the war was necessary etc.

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 AM

GUEST,AC:

"Everything happens in a context and the context of this incident is the Tory campaign that has been going on all year (launched by Michael Gove and Max Hastings) to rewrite history and portray WWI as a noble crusade against oppression and German military domination and for freedom and liberty. It was no such thing. The 850,000 British and Commonwealth troops who died (and the hundreds of thousands more injured and maimed) were not fighting for their own interests but for the selfish interests of their rulers: competing for markets and colonies."

History is constantly being rewritten AC, what is your "beef", that the rewriting doesn't screech to a halt when "your" preferred version comes round? Hastings by the way is correct the British First World War Commanders were nowhere near as bad a Lloyd "Bloody" George and leftist-luvvies tried to paint them in hindsight – Lloyd George was basically a clueless opportunist who found himself in a position where he was completely out of his depth.

A "Noble crusade against oppression" - Ah so the Belgians actually wanted to be forcibly annexed and incorporated into a greater Germany then? Not to forget Luxembourg of course?

Let us just imagine what would have potentially been the case had we had stayed out of it in 1914:

1: The Germans would have defeated the French in 1914, they would have defeated the Russians by about 1916.

2: Having defeated the French all French Colonies would have been taken over by the Germans giving them their "Place in the Sun", they would also as promised have annexed Belgium and that would have given the German High Seas Fleet a base roughly 110 miles from London (They could then shell London from the Thames Estuary).

3: Not having mobilized, Britain would find itself facing a German Army of 5 million with a standing Army of roughly 440,000 with no opportunity to increase that number in case such increase could be viewed by Germany as a provocation to attack - Germany's troops would be battle hardened ours would not.

4: Germany could then return to its tricks at the turn of the century of causing trouble in British overseas possessions and colonies (Boer War
You see in 1914 Great Britain was offered a choice, fight Germany now when we have a chance of beating them or sit back and wait until a point is reached where a German victory over ourselves is inevitable. Your call AC what would you have gone for? Sir Edward Grey was perfectly correct in electing for war in the national interests of Great Britain and her Empire in 1914.

"Not fighting for their own interests"

Care to name any war in history between nation states where soldiers have fought for their interests? By the way what were the "selfish interests of their rulers" you referred to?

No competition for markets and colonies – the French were just going to lose all theirs if they lost and ours would have gone soon after. Note that occurrence would not have been in the best interests of the British working man as they would have lost markets for whatever it was that they produced so jobs would have been lost, still they could have flocked to the Army that would be required to take on a much stronger Germany in the 1920s eh?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:10 AM

UK went to war to stop an aggressive invasion wreaked upon others and threatening us.
The people were behind the government in resisting it.
Historians today agree the decision was right.
No choice.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM

Musket, it would appear that:

- You cannot tell us, or give us an example of anyone who thinks that war is noble - why not just say so.

- You cannot tell us of what Western Civilisation should be ashamed of.

- You cannot tell us what this military mindset is or what it is they are supposed to be leading.

So in short you basically turn out on this forum and spout a complete and utter load of bollocks.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

Ever thought why people bow their heads when laying poppies at a cenotaph fool?

Read The post above about Harry Patch, then go back and read the posts your boy scout mate Keith and you wrote about Palestine.

Then decide whether decent people should give you the time of day.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:47 AM

Who'd have thought Michael Gove could have made such an impression on so many people eh?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:00 AM

Well the omission of the last verse is objectionable enough, but as a piece of music it's somewhere between a cheaphair shampoo advery and the sound of a motor bike revving up, in other words rubbish


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:06 AM

GUEST,Rahere

"You obviously didn't live in the UK in the 1950s/60s."

Oh yes I did.

Harry Enfield/Public Service; Captain Mainwaring - Impressed over much by television programmes are you? Perhaps you think that "Oh what a lovely war" and "Blackadder goes forth" are actual historical works - if so then more fool you.

If you were in training at RMA Sandhurst in the 1960s or 1970s then we are of the same vintage although I was not Army. So the people we would have encountered across a broad spectrum of civilian life would have been much of a muchness - I can't remember coming across the types you describe, in fact most WWII veterans tended to be very self-effacing and humble and quiet about their war service

By the way those "old timers" you came across in training that you are so ready to disparage were the ones who taught Frank Kitson his trade in Malaya and in Kenya. They were also the ones that US General David Petraeus's Australian counter-insurgency Guru Lt-Col David Kilcullen studied and learned from. In fact during the "Cold War" those old timers didn't do too badly:
Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus, Kuwait, Suez, Aden, Dhofar, Borneo, Northern Ireland, Falklands, etc, etc.

Involved in any of those were you Rahere? Or was your mention of the Duke of Westminster evidence of the fact that you were a TA Occifer? or possibly a sidelined regular?

The Irish Bombing campaign if I remember correctly only really succeeded in killing innocent civilians - the very civilians that they swore they never targeted and were fighting to protect - I'd have told them to F**K Off and protect someone else.

The tenor of this entire posting of yours screams of "chippiness" and "failure" liberally laced with envy - what happened did someone catch you putting the milk in first?

"The military in every democracy have a fine line to walk between guarding the Nation and bullying it."

Where on earth do you get this crap from? The military in the British isles only ever bullied the nation or the people once and that was back in the time of Cromwell - that is why it remains to this day Parliament's Army by the Sovereign's Royal Navy - Since that time the British Army has always experienced a bit of distrust of it on the part of the civilian population - not so the Navy, the Navy protected and promoted trade and made the country money - which was spent ashore.

"who is the nation?"

Today? Good question, perhaps you could tell us, after you have first told us what nation.

"We have eased their grip - but what we must beware of is allowing them to impose it again."


Who is the "WE" Chippy.

"jiddery=pokery??" Jiggery-pokery surely.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:10 AM

Couldn't agree more Desi C


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM

Eric Bogle responds .....
http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/nov/12/eric-bogle-responds-to-joss-stones-cover-of-his-song-no-mans-land

(ps Hope the link works)


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:01 PM

Teribus, if you'd bothered to read my other postings you'd see I parted company with the light green jobs over something currently under criminal investigation in NI, but was brought back when they needed a safe pair of hands running ops financing in the European defence HQ, where I stayed 18 years.
I understand your viewpoint if you were RN - my family was Pompey, Cumberland Road, grandpa was CPO Mess Steward for Jackie Fisher. You don't get an objective viewpoint when at sea, and you'd not have met the ex-Army types around Pompey or Plymouth, they stayed in the Home Counties within reach of St James clubland, where they did and do pull an unwarranted amount of weight. They don't know the back streets of Edmonton, let alone Gosport.
My generation was taught by the next wave, an Aussie major fresh from Nam and the aftermath of Bloody Sunday, which was one hell of a wake-up call to all the aspirant Ruperts. Some of my mates were in the Falklands, but by that time I was gone, in civvy steet with Schweppes - production chasing for NAAFI amongst others, one little thing was getting the drinks in for the task force. About the only thing they didn't run out of, coke cans.
Trouble wuth that arm is that if you've got it, you never lose it - I showed WEU how to use other sources, faster than the usual. Even this summer, three years after retirement, something came up which had the US SD and UK refresh my clearance.

The question is, at root, who did you work for when push came to shove? Your attestation oath's to the heirarchy, but after that? One reply above, pure squaddy, is your mates. Your family, if like me you've been military for a few hundred years. An uncle was one of the youngest RMs on the Vindictive raids in 1918. Peter Carrington, I got to know on first-name terms, one of a fistful of Statesmen. Tom King, Douglas Hurd, yes. David Davies, former SAS trooper, much undervalued. But for the rest, yugh. Robin Cook was in particular a nightmare, utterly isolated in the European diplomatic corps. You could talk to people like George Papandreou or Carl Bilt, but Cook? A prickly, insecure pipsqueak.

What went wrong is at the heart of the political nightmare to this day, politicians wanting to use the power for themselves rather than the good of the Nation writ large. Power to claim expenses for duck houses. Power to sell uniforms to troops (that was one WWI abuse). This week we've seen the NAO paste our local GPs in North London for an abusive structure designed to milk their budgets into their own pockets without justification (one weekend a short while back there was just one GP on call for 650 000 people in North London). A similar problem has just been found in Tower Hamlets where no end of contracts and assets have ended up in the hands of the Mayor and his cronies through what seems to be maladministration in mechanism, I leave it to you to define the motive. Abstract this and you'll see that the Nation as a whole is an untidy mess of businesses and leisure, services and support, infrastructure and intangibles, banking and bonking, and the entire politican and civil service machine should support the lot, from cradle to grave, from the dimmest moron to the greatest genius. Political parties start to twist it for their support, and with 730 billion pounds at play, that's one tempting jackpot to target. The figures were smaller in 1914, but the value every whit as tempting, and one of the figures not discussed is just how much was creamed of by politicians doing exactly the same thing, giving themselves the big contracts.

Now, you can be a naive optimist and believe that politicians are benevolent folks doing it out of the purest goodness of their hearts. And you can also believe in the tooth fairy. The point is that out of the mess and chaos comes something we call a Nation, and it is that we defend. You may iconise it as a Monarch, or as business, or people, or... but beware those who try flogging you their image, as they may not have your wellbeing at heart. At the moment we suffer from a people in peonage and business doing rather too well by comparison. In Germany in 1930 the adoption of the latest Pied Piper would have dire consequences. It has happened before, it is up to those who have heard the tune before to say don't dance to it.

And that is the gist of this, not to swallow Joss Stone's siren song. The electorate has far more say now that it had 50 years ago, and we must beware that the State doesn't cut it back. They try, they try.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:47 AM

Rahere for PM. I'd vote for him! Fascinating stuff.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM

Russell Brand said this on RT about a certain section of the population.
I paraphrase....
"They send their kids away to boarding school. If that's how much they care about their children, how much do you think they care about you?"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Teribus

I've tried to keep out of this discussion I said my piece some days ago but you raised an issue (12th Nov 08.16)

You suggested that Musket could not tell us what Western civilisation should be ashamed of.

Could I answer that on his behalf. The total number of casualties during the First World War was 37 million (37,000,000)

Globally over 16 million (16,000,000) people were killed and over 20 million (20,000,000) wounded including both my Grandfathers and my Great Uncle.

If that is NOT something that Western Civilisation should be ashamed of I really don't what would qualify.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM

Thanks Raggytash.

I worked on the idea that if he doesn't know despite his ability to string sentences together, well you can't educate pork.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM

Raggytash would you care to let me and everyone else in on how "western civilisation" was responsible for what at the time was known as "The Great War"? I can put up a pretty good argument for German Imperialism and Serbian Nationalism but "western civilisation" - NO.

Dying to read your reasoning then perhaps we could apportion blame for the 50-odd million who died between 1918 and 1920 because of the Spanish Flu Pandemic on "Chinese Civilisation" as that geographically is where it was considered to have originated.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 08:22 AM

Terribus,

As previously stated I have no wish to get involved in this discussion, however

Civilisation according to The Oxford English Dictionary is (1)the stage of human social development and organisation which is considered most advanced or (2)the society, culture and way of life of a particular area.

Were German Imperialism, Serbian Nationalism even British Imperialism together with the roles played by France, Italy, Austria/Hungary et al not part of Western Civilisation.

If this is not acceptable to you there's nothing further I can say.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 08:41 AM

Is Western Civilisation responsible for hundreds of thousands dead and millions displaced in Syria?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:01 AM

Taking your Oxford English Dictionary definition of "civilisation":

(1)the stage of human social development and organisation which is considered most advanced
(2)the society, culture and way of life of a particular area.

Then tacking "Western" on the front you would find that throughout Europe (the specific or particular area you have chosen to focus on) there was no great desire for war among the majority of "western"/European nations apart from Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire due to Serbian agitation.

The First World War kicked off the way it did because German mobilisation once ordered could not be halted and that mobilisation required the immediate attack through Luxembourg and Belgium in order that bottlenecks did not develop that would have a detrimental effect on the German attack on France in the West.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with "western civilisation" per se.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/nov/12/eric-bogle-responds-to-joss-stones-cover-of-his-song-no-mans-land


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:55 AM

Just continuing the Teribus point, German military thinking was held in the straightjacket of the "Schlieffen Plan" - as France and Russia were bound my a military alliance, Germany would be facing a war on two fronts - Russia had mobilised in support of its ally Serbia - it was generally thought that the Russian army would take six weeks to get ready owing to distances etc. The Germans had defeated the French in five weeks in the Franco-Prussian War and it was reckoned that if they could do the same again, they would then be free to use all their forces against Russia. The Russian mobilisation meant that this would no longer be possible, and caused the German High Command to go into panic mode as there was no "plan B" - Schlieffen himself had died some years earlier. There was also the miscalculation in thinking the British would not stick by a treaty with Belgium going back to 1839.


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