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No man's land protest

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


Related threads:
Lyr Req: The green fields of France (39)
Lyr Req: Green fields of france PARODY (27)
No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version? (89)
Info: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
Greenfields of France parody... (34)
Alternative lyrics to 'Willie McBride -Flower (7)
Green Fields of France (48)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France Parody (14)
Lyr/Chords Req: Green Fields of France (Engli (26)
Lyr/Chords Req: No Man's Land (15)
Lyr Req: Parody on Green Fields of France (26)
Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
(origins) Green Fields of France (10)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France^^^ (22)
Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
Lyr Add: Not Willie McBride (7)
Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


MGM·Lion 06 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM
Bounty Hound 06 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM
Musket 06 Nov 14 - 05:22 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Nov 14 - 05:23 PM
Pistachio 06 Nov 14 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 06 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 14 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 06 Nov 14 - 05:50 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 14 - 05:54 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 06 Nov 14 - 05:59 PM
Bounty Hound 06 Nov 14 - 06:10 PM
Tattie Bogle 06 Nov 14 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,DTM 06 Nov 14 - 06:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 14 - 04:46 AM
Bounty Hound 07 Nov 14 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 05:32 AM
Musket 07 Nov 14 - 05:47 AM
Bounty Hound 07 Nov 14 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM
GUEST 07 Nov 14 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Rahere 07 Nov 14 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Daisy belle 07 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 07 Nov 14 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 07 Nov 14 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 07 Nov 14 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 07 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM
Musket 07 Nov 14 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,HiLo 07 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 07 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM
Jack Campin 07 Nov 14 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,HiLo 07 Nov 14 - 10:33 AM
GUEST 07 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 11:06 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Nov 14 - 12:14 PM
The Sandman 07 Nov 14 - 12:45 PM
The Sandman 07 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Rahere 07 Nov 14 - 02:19 PM
The Sandman 07 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Rahere 07 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 07 Nov 14 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Tattie Bogle 07 Nov 14 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,DTM 07 Nov 14 - 07:12 PM
Musket 08 Nov 14 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,Desi C 08 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM
The Sandman 08 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM
Acorn4 08 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM
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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

@ G-Force

JOSS STONE

Birth name         Jocelyn Eve Stoker
Born         11 April 1987 (age 27)
Dover, Kent, England

Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

That's 'LOTS' of course!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:22 PM

Whilst the pedants are out, she's a soul singer, if we must use irrelevant terms of genre.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:23 PM

John: I did say that, more or less, a few posts back - 1035 am.

Best

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Pistachio
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:35 PM

I too would like the Legion to make a lot of money - but I'd like (even having read Eric's own comments)the general public to know that what's happened is akin to someone rewriting John Lennon's 'Imagine' and putting it out there without remaining true to the sentiment nor singing a style that's sympathetic to the original.                Yes, there's the 'folk process' - with different interpretations - but not butchering and wailing (by some accounts). I do admit, for my own reasons, I do not plan to listen to the JS version.       Hopefully Eric will receive a good return too.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

...anyway... enough about Joss Stone....

It's Jeff Beck... only Jeff bleedin Yardbirds Beck...

How many snobby folkies have ever managed anything anyway near as good as
"Shapes of Things" and "Over Under Sideways Down"

Or ever influenced as many other musicians


Jeff legendary pioneer of the glorious TONEBENDER fuzzbox Beck...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

Please see S. 80- CDPA 1988 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/IV

What I do not know is whether Bogle has signed a waiver under S. 87 (ibid).


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:46 PM

STW are coming from a clear anti-war perspective and very clear that they object to the increasing levels of jingoism attached to remembrance. Fair enough point as far as I'm concerned. We all have axes to grind and the world would be a duller place if we didn't grind them. To be appalled by the loss of life in capitalist wars doesn't make you a bad person; for the Legion to be associated with an anti-war song is no bad thing. No-one, surely, wants wars - and to glorify them is pretty psychopathic. So as far as I'm concerned it wouldn't have harmed them to do the song properly - might have even done them a favour. Personally I won't wear a poppy, because I don't like what it's come to symbolise: it seems it's less 'lest we forget' as 'we have forgotten - business as usual'.

Meanwhile, loved your Youtube clip Dick. How about putting up a new recording of the Rebel Soldier? - one of your finest moments in my book...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:50 PM

With you on Jeff Beck, PFR - but he should have retired gracefully in about 1972...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:54 PM

My favourite is The Men They Couldn't Hang's version too. It was the first I heard and I never realised it was a folk song.

But aren't we being a bit precious here. Folk song developed because people heard songs and sang their own versions. Words were changed, verses added, verses subtracted.

I haven't heard the new version but presumably it's going to mean that a number of people hear the original version anyway when they wouldn't have otherwise.

Mt father was a conchie, I expect that his father was too (although his brothers weren't) and on my mother's side they were working in the pits anyway but even with my background and views I think that we ought to acknowledge that different people from the First World War would have had different ideas about it anyway. If we just assume that everyone was against the war then we do many of the military a disservice. They may have preferred not to fight but they also thought that it was right that they did so.

On a totally different tack, this is the best video accompanying a song about the war that I've seen

John Tams - Scarecrow


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:59 PM

Speaking as someone who is anti-war, without any affiliation to any organisation, the affair seems to show the British Legion in a light that marks them as not anti-war.
And after a brief search on the internet I find results which reinforce this with some of their previous historic decisions, for example refusing to change the wording cast into their poppy central sections to show a message requesting an end to war.
I applaud Eric Bogle for his composition and regret that this new rendition will not reflect his intended message.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:10 PM

Michael, sorry, I missed that one :)


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:34 PM

Eric's last sentence in the fRoots article is extraordinarily generous and restrained.
Having now listened to the Joss Stone version (previously having wondered what was so awful that yet another petition had to be started - yes I also suffer "petition fatigue") - it's a massacre of the original song. I've never been comfortable with the Furey's version: only Eric's and a very few other people's singing of it "do it" for me.
It's one of those songs that so often get murdered in sessions, and have you thinking "oh no not that again" - unless it is done really well, in which case, yes, the tissues come out. If Joss Stone felt so strongly about doing an anti-war song, let her write her own and not tamer with such a well-written, well constructed, heart-felt song as Eric's.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:46 PM

Originally a great song but done to death - sorry folks, no pun intended.

Everytime someone at a session starts singing "No Man's Land" or "And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" my heart sinks and I think, oh god, not AGAIN.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 04:46 AM

John Bounty Hound.
It was not about obscure politics.
UK would not have been involved if it was about Archdukes and the Balkans.

Duty meant something to the people of those times.
We were duty bound to defend Belgium when it was invaded.
We had a treaty.
People were outraged by the atrocities committed in Belgium and every reason to believe that we would be next..
They felt with justification they were fighting to defend Britain.
Everyone had a basic education and access to a free press.
They were not just fools too stupid to "understand when they told you the cause"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:29 AM

Keith, I don't think we are really disagreeing here, and you are of course correct that duty meant something to the people of those times.

I'm absolutely certain that when Eric Bogle posed the question in the song he was not suggesting for one minute that they were just 'fools to stupid to understand' but asking whether they were there just out of a sense of duty.

John


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:32 AM

All very fine discussing 'duty' - let's not forget about conscription...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:47 AM

Tattie Bogle. "If Joss Stone feels so strongly about singing an anti war song, let her write her own."

Or alternatively, let anyone sing anybody's song? Are you only saying only Eric Bogle should sing it? I do deplore the decision by BL to leave out the important message of the final verse, but surely any singer can sing any song?   I was asked to sing it lastt week, being the nearest folk club night to remembrance Sunday at a local club. Should I have sung something I wrote instead? Regardless of whether I could do the subject justice?

What an odd comment?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:55 AM

Fair point PFR, just looked for some figures and there were more conscripts than volunteers.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM

All I 'know' about my family's role in WW1 is from what little I was told as a child.

My Nan lost a brother at Passchendaele.
Her father, my great grandad, was somewhere over there in his 40s. He got wounded by shrapnel.

I haven't a clue if either 'volunteered'.

Grandad - my dad's father - may have been in the horse artillery,
By my rough calculation, he must have been well in his 30s...
Again, no idea if he was a 'volunteer' ???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:18 AM

You can hardly expect the RBL to be anti-war, basically it's a welfare organisation for ex-members of the military. It remembers the First World War because that was the spur to its formation and much of its resources have been used supporting those who fought in it as well as those who served later. It is neither for nor against the wars but for the well-being of its members.

And it is a difficult situation. Imagine that you were in a Syrian town being attacked by ISIS and that you are aware that if the town falls the men will be slaughtered, the children taken away to be brought up by the ISIS fighters and the women sold into slavery, would you take a gun and fight if you were offered the chance or would you surrender and take the consequences?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:47 AM

Eric's probably right, the pipsqueaks don't deserve the attention. Next time the lesson for anyone writing something is to pull no punches, and in the mean time, perhaps Eric will confirm that he actually gets some royalties from it, as he's not credited on the RBL YouTube thread, only further down as it being a "cover" of his work.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Daisy belle
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

Surely this was a missed opportunity to expose the futility and stupidity of war? In the words of another songwriter "When will they ever learn? I would suggest that anyone who wants to know what it was really like and what motivated young people at the time reads Vera Brittain's autobiographical novel "Testament of Youth".


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:30 AM

Fair enough that one shouldn't expect the Legion to be anti-war but if that is the case then one can criticize them for taking a top anti war anthem and twisting the meaning!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:36 AM

This raises a number of interesting questions.

Firstly, was this the right song for the British Legion to choose in the first place? Did they want an anti-war song? I would guess that a fair number of the professional servicemen and women they now mainly aim to support are not entirely opposed to war in principle, and the same may also have been true of many of those who are now remembered. The opposite of war is often not peace but oppression. Certainly many of my parents' generation who were in WW2 had few doubts that war was justified, and the same seems also to have been true for many of those in WW1. This song represents a modern point of view which may not have been recognised by those who it is about.

Secondly, did BL deliberately edit the song to alter its message, or was this a crass decision made during the process of rehearsing and recording? Either way, whether or not it was legal to do this without the consent of the writer was it morally justifiable to do so?

I am astonished that in the accompanying 'behind the scenes' video Joss Stone talks about respecting the integrity of the song. It makes me wonder whether she'd even seen the full lyrics or was just presented with the truncated version.

i'm not quite sure what the edited version is trying to say. The tone seems to me quite inappropriate for what has become a simple requiem for a individual soldier. However I suppose a lot of people will buy it, whether to support the BL or because they like the sound, perhaps without thinking too much about what it is saying.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:42 AM

Some years ago I asked Eric Bogle if he was cheesed off by the Fureys version of No Man's Land .......... he said he was ......... until the Royalties started coming in.

Who can blame him, he has to make a living. He's probably one of very few who has made a decent living out of folk music.

I've listened to Joss Stone's version in my opinion it is unadulterated horse droppings and certainly negates the anti war message of the original which I have always considered to be one of the finest of its kind.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM

Quite agree Howard. Bogle concedes that the song is probably too long for this purpose but I think if any verse was to be left out (so that the meaning of the song remains intact) then it should be the second verse. The first sets the scene whist the third and fourth are where the message of the song sits.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM

If the Brit Legion has made any gross error of judgement,
it's simply been to farm production of a charity record out to a mediocre jobbing creative team.

If you must accuse anyone, blame the hack freelance producers for insensiitive editing of this song.


Seriously, some mudcatters are just so desperate to find anything to complain about..
Especially if they can indulge in any excuse to hurl abuse at 'inferior' modern non folk based musical performances...

The UK folk scene surely harbours the oddest bunch of disgruntled resentful mean spirited
sanctimonious narrow minded fundamentalists....

... who really seem to know eff all about the real world of music and musicians...

well... that's the impression one might get from a sizable over vociferous minority...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:17 AM

Oh, they are an odd minority PFR...

As it is on this thread, some are calling it a folk song. If it cropped up on another thread, the same people would claim it can't be a folk song because it falls foul of some absurd committee that sent out agendas and read out apologies in 1954, allegedley...

Twisting songs? I remember Bruce Springsteen fans getting pissed off when Reagan borrowed "Born in The USA" at Republican conventions, and Joe South's questioning anthem "Games people play" being used to advertise a celebrity magazine, and that's before butter manufacturers saw the value of "The Wild Rover" and Johnny Rotten.... Not to mention Liverpool Airport borrowing "Above us only Sky." (I liked that, on account of the God botherers stood outside arrivals with placards looking stupid.)

Some of the comments on this thread are rather strange and seem to deflect from the idea of altering a song to destroy what it was written for in the first place. It seems to be degenerating into a "it's our song not yours!" Playground politics....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:29 AM

yeah.... dead odd...

they blather on at great length about the 'folk process'
then get almighty over protective and vengeful when anyone remotely young and modern
dares to tamper with a single word of one of their sacrosact 'folk songs'...?????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM

Testament of Youth is not a novel. It is the first instalment of Vera Brittain's Autobography.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM

Most people won't know the song in any form and will judge this version on its own merits. The song may be extremely well-known amongst folkies but most people won't have heard of it. This version is not my cup of tea but I dare say that plenty of people will like it, and that it will be a success on its own terms and will raise funds for the Legion.

Whilst Eric Bogle has said he and his publishers have no intention of suing, I think the BL has acted unethically by not seeking his approval. However I suspect this is more likely to be a cock-up than a conspiracy. They went to someone to commission a fund-raising song, and someone in the production company thought of this and trimmed it, either to deliberately change the meaning or simply to reduce the length. I suspect it was then presented to BL for approval, no one there knew the proper version and they accepted it at face value without question. They would have expected the production company to deal with copyright issues.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:17 AM

If the Brit Legion has made any gross error of judgement, it's simply been to farm production of a charity record out to a mediocre jobbing creative team.

I doubt there is any error of judgment. The British Legion is a publicity machine for militarism, and its primary function for 100 years has been to turn warfare into a state religion. They knew exactly what they were doing; their only mistake was in thinking they could get away with it.

They make me want to puke and I'd never support them in any way.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:33 AM

I just cannot believe some of the ignorance and sheer ugliness posted here..unbelievable .I have known many veterans in my time and have known not one who glorified war. I am just appalled at some of the above comments.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

What a fuss over nothing, I feel strongly that some parties have been hyping this up to further their own agenda, Stop the War as mentioned above being an obvious one. There was an edited version of Eric Bogle's response circulated on Facebook by fRoots which clearly seemed to have selectively quoted to make him seem wronged and upset about it.

It's pretty clear from Eric Bogle's FULL response that while he doesn't particularly care for this cover, and agrees it does dilute the original message somewhat, he DOESN'T take particular offence and DOESN'T view it as glorifying war... His final conclusion is "if Joss's version touches heart or two here and there and makes some people reflect, perhaps for the first time, on the true price of war, then her version is as valid as anyone else's"

Is all this grubbing around to find a stick to beat the RBL with really a noble cause?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM

"The British Legion is a publicity machine for militarism, and its primary function for 100 years has been to turn warfare into a state religion"

fair enough.. but you tell me any other state religion where I could have bought a pint of strong local drought cider
and a bag of scratchings for less than a quid..

Shame our local club was closed down...

It was friendly and welcoming...

Don't think I ever saw a single fight there...

In fact quite a safe environment for lefty pacifists like me & the mrs...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 11:06 AM

.. having said that.....

About 15 years ago on a visit to Taunton, we thought we'd give their club a try for an evening pint..

We were stopped in our tracks by a closed security door and intercom system. [maybe even CCTV cameras?]
The jobsworth in charge refused to accept our memberships & credentials**
as valid enough, so refused to let us in...???

[**Me being ex civil service, and my dad ex airforce national service]

Seemed a right bunch of touchy snobs.. maybe they were officers ???

Then again, with the barracks near town, maybe they were over paranoid, and we looked too much like undesirables...???

But that was Taunton...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 12:14 PM

"A pint of strong local drought cider"

LOL! A bit of an unintended funny there, PFR? 😆👍


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 12:45 PM

jack campin, the british legion is the home of many folk clubs,and provides a stable and friendly environment for many folk clubs it might make you puke,
but shall i tell you something, you make me puke much more, you asked for a personal attack upon me[ which had been removed] to be re posted., that is a really nasty thing to do
the british legion has inadvertently given much publicity to a folk song, they are not much different from some folk song collectors [ eg sharp ] who popularised edited folk songs.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM

The Royal British Legion (RBL), sometimes referred to as the The British Legion or The Legion, is a British charity providing financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants.
i fail to see how that can be interpreted as promoting militarism.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:19 PM

GSS
And how does nicking someone's work, perverting his message and intent without the minimal courtesy of asking his permission first fit into that? Oh yes, because some of the military got a decided liking for doing that wholesale, pushing other people around for any reason and none, "because there's a war on", and cannot let it go. It's part of what's called militarism.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM

What Eric bogle wrote in its entirety via fRoots:

Apparently Joss Stone's version of my song "No Man's Land" has polarised opinions. I usually don't comment publicly on other people's versions of my songs, but many of you have e-mailed me about this matter and seem genuinely upset about it, so I am sending you the following in reply to some of the questions I have been asked………please note that I will be entering into no further correspondence regarding this matter, I don't want to spend the rest of my life e-mailing on my computer, so you will have to accept (or reject ) what I have said below and leave it there…….! ! The copyright for "No Man's Land/The Green Fields of France" is held by my UK Publisher,! Domino Publishing, who are ultimately responsible for approving applications to record this song. When an artist wishes to record "No Man's Land" they must apply for a mechanical license to do so from the relevant UK agency, and pay a licensing fee. Permission to record is more or less automatic, especially if, as is the case with this song, it has been recorded before. At no stage in this process am I, the composer, involved. Generally speaking, the first I know of any new recording is when I see any subsequent royalties from the recording appearing on my royalty statements. ! !
When the artist(s) in question records the cover version of the song, they can, and often do, rework ! the song as to be almost unrecognisable from the original version. This is especially true in Jazz music, and is generally regarded as an acceptable creative exercise by the artist(s). Although! the publisher and/or composer could take legal action if they feel that the original essence of the song has been irrevocably altered and very much to the song's detriment, this very rarely happens. The bottom line is that so long as royalties are paid, any wounded artistic feelings are usually put aside.! !
So then, to the most asked questions about this affair:! !!
Was my permission sought when they decided to record this song? - No! !!
Did I know what they proposed to do with the song when they decided to record it? - No! !!
Do I approve of what they have done to the song ? (missing verses, rock'n'roll arrangement, etc) !
No, believe it or not I wrote the song intending for the four verses of the original song to gradually build up to what I hoped would be a climactic and strong anti-war statement. Missing out two and a half verses from the original four verses very much negates that intention. As to the musical arrangement, it's really about whatever floats your musical boat. I would have thought a strong mostly acoustic version would have done a better job of getting the message across, but that's just my personal preference, and I'm a bit of an old fart folkie. But then to do an acoustic version and include all four verses and choruses would have made the song nearly 7 minutes long, making it of doubtful commercial appeal in today's modern music market, given that the average attention span of that market's consumers is rarely more than three minutes or so. There's not much doubt that the shortened, up-tempo, bluesy version that Joss does will probably appeal to a much broader cross-section of the listening public, certainly to those who did not know the song existed until they heard Joss's version. ! !
Is the strong anti-war message in the original song diminished in this recording? Yes, missing some crucial verses does not help. But then this diminishment is only in the eyes (or ears) of people who have heard the original version of the song. Those who have not heard the original cannot make the same comparisons or judgements. They must take Joss's version on it's own merits and make their own interpretation. ! !
Does it follow then that this version glorifies war instead of condemning it? - No, in my opinion it certainly doesn't glorify it, but doesn't condemn it either, it just sort of starts off promisingly enough and then turns into a sing- along chorus type of song. Sentimentalising perhaps, but not glorifying.! !!
Will me or my publisher be suing Joss Stone, Jeff Beck or the British Legion? — No, you have to be joking. I would have wished for a version of my song that could have been more true to my original intention in writing the song, but if Joss's version touches heart or two here and there and makes some people reflect, perhaps for the first time, on the true price of war, then her version is as valid as anyone else's."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

Yes, GSS, it was posted above. Eric doesn't have much choice but to put up with it, but his being shafted doesn't alter the fundamental point that what the RBL did was thoroughly dishonest. Much like claiming what they are about isn't militaristic. I don't see any other group parading with flags and military bands - not even the BNP get away with that lot.

There is no identity or even parity between being of the military and being militaristic. The difference is one of role in society: a militarist wants the military to be given superiority, a military man should, these days, recognise that military power being a continuation of government policy by other means, then he is a servant of society. The quid pro quo recognised in the Armed Forces Covenant is that as the veteran (of which I am one) has set his normal rights aside in the interest of that service, then if there are consequences, he should receive compensating priority, which sadly isn't actually happening, yet again.

In WWII, for good reasons, the military were giiven priority, and many of them were utterly unable to give up the power afterwards. Those of us of the post-war generation all knew "the Major", claiming a rank he was no longer entitled to (only an Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshall or Air Marshall never retires, and on retirement an officer returns to civilian life with the titles he has earned). The RBL gives veterans an excessive sense of privilege, as if being in the military always and in everything entitles them to rule the roost. That's not the kind of nation I want, it's not the kind of democracy I signed up to defend, and although it's far from true of all, it's true of enough as to make any sense of charity from my side somewhat limited. For me, the military's finest hour was when Cromwell overturned the whole house of cards, Monarchy, corrupt parliament and all - and refused to become a king himself. The military must be the servant of the Nation, and not of whatever demiurge has last dreamed up the megalomanic idea that "I am the State and the State is me".
One of the things which makes the UK distinctive is that the Monarchy has actually found a way to be a figurehead without falling into that trap. It's still not true of much of the Mad in Chelsea bunch, who haven't got the message that privilege is earned, not inherited. Thankfully that's no longer true of the military, where the commanders of small units (and on occasion even larger ones) these days are as likely to have risen from the ranks as to bear a direct commission. Consequently, there is hope for the RBL, it s slowly unbending (for example in the question of Poppy Fascism) but the speed and will is still far from what should attract our admiration.
And as we have seen, sometimes they just don't get it.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:07 PM

Eric does not seem so bothered that he will not accept the royalties. He certainly does not, imho, suggest he feels he is being "shafted".

As to your personal opinion of the British Legion I can say nothing.

The fact is that it is a registered charity with aims to help ex-members of the armed services.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:09 PM

Musket: you have chosen to quote only part of what I said re the Joss Stone version: in the rest of my post I acknowledged that there are people other than Eric Bogle who CAN do justice to this song - but that they may be in the minority of those who attempt it. Nothing odd about that.
Several people have mentioned June Tabor's singing of it, which is excellent. (And others have mentioned Sandy Denny and Maddy Prior)
NOWHERE did I say that ONLY the composer of a song should be the only person to sing it, Stop twisting things!
This version is just horrible (not just omitting verses, but the so-called "musical" arrangement.
And not seeking Eric's permission is indefensible.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:12 PM

Just watched the Joss Stone video. Couldn't make it till the end.
Sacrilege.
Stone Joss.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 04:50 AM

I wasn't twisting it Tattiie Bogle. I picked up, in context, your claim that Joss Stone should write her own. That logic purely for her? Why can't she sing it but a retired social worker with a voice as flat as a fart and his finger in his ear can stand up in a pub and hope everybody is impressed? Not her greatest work for that matter, but I have heard it sung badly far more often than good. I wasn't too impressed with hindsight with my own rendition at a folk club last week.

I suppose one of the saddest parts of this is that two musicians, a singer and a guitarist I greatly admire have released what is, artistically, about the worst day in the recording studio they have had.

That's apart from any debate over RBL motives, belittling a powerful message in a powerful song or copyright cum royalities debate.

You know how Mudcat webpages have "in context" ads? Well mine the other day invited me to download it from iTunes........


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

I agree the omossion of the last verse is ofensive. But more importantly, as a piece of music I find it somewhere between a hair shampoo ad and a car crash, in other words, abysmla!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM

in my opinion The British Legion are a charity that look after ex servicemen, the people that promote militarism Are many of the the elected politicians,and on occasions the uk government, the British Legion are a charity that look after ex ervicemen, they do not recruit people to join the army do they? rahere please answer that question, do they recruit people to join the army.
I have signed the petition.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM

Two issues here:-

The actual quality of the singing/arrangement.

The issue of leaving out/changing the lyrics/message.

The second is the most important.


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