Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict

GUEST,Selby 17 Nov 14 - 03:49 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Nov 14 - 05:01 AM
GUEST, topsie 17 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 17 Nov 14 - 05:36 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Nov 14 - 05:43 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Nov 14 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Rahere 17 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM
Musket 17 Nov 14 - 06:18 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Nov 14 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Rahere 17 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM
Musket 17 Nov 14 - 09:02 AM
Bill D 17 Nov 14 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 17 Nov 14 - 12:15 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Nov 14 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 17 Nov 14 - 12:26 PM
Musket 17 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Nov 14 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 17 Nov 14 - 06:03 PM
GUEST, 17 Nov 14 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw, stubborn git 17 Nov 14 - 06:39 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 12:54 AM
GUEST, 18 Nov 14 - 03:48 AM
Musket 18 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM
Dave Sutherland 18 Nov 14 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 05:33 AM
GUEST, from behind the sofa 18 Nov 14 - 05:44 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 06:02 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,Selby 18 Nov 14 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM
Mr Red 18 Nov 14 - 03:09 PM
Musket 18 Nov 14 - 04:05 PM
akenaton 18 Nov 14 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 06:19 PM
akenaton 18 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM
Musket 19 Nov 14 - 01:17 AM
akenaton 19 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM
Musket 19 Nov 14 - 04:44 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 14 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 06:29 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 08:30 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 03:49 AM

Ched Evans a British Footballer committed a crime in the eyes of a court. He was sent to prison and did his "time", his football team want to reinstate him but public opinion is against him, should he as a released prisoner be rehabilitated into the community or as a footballer be cast out as a unsuitable role model?
Keith


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:01 AM

Footballers have neither qualification nor need to be 'role models'. I agree with the baseball player quoted in the morning's Times, to effect that he just gets on with a job he happens to be good at, & it is no part of his function to bring people's children up for them; that is the parents' responsibility.

With that in mind, and bearing in mind the principle that a released criminal who has served his time has, as the saying is, 'paid his debt to society', and should be helped to be reintegrated as a respectable member of that society, I think Mr Evans should be allowed to resume his former job. Knowing football crowds and their ways, mind, he will need to be aware that he will be likely to get some hostile reactions every time he gets anywhere near the ball.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

The problem seems to be that he is still insisting that he is innocent. Some of the people calling for him to be banned are saying that he should not be allowed back unless he apologises - but how can he say he is sorry for doing something he claims he didn't do?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:36 AM

I agree with your role model point. I find it tiresome in the extreme when this absurd notion is routinely trotted out that sportspersons/pop stars/anyone else you care to name should be role models. Adults in general have the responsibility to act with fairness and decency in their spheres of life. That's how humanity progresses. There's nothing special about being a celebrity footie player that gives him responsibility for the moral high ground.

However.

A big, burly, young fellow who has just come out of prison should definitely be rehabilitated in the community. But that doesn't mean he has to do exactly what he did before. Had I, as a school teacher, raped a 19-year-old girl, I would never have be allowed in a classroom again, even in an all-boys school. I would have had to do something else. That's the law. I don't think it should be illegal for Mr Evans to play football professionally again. But I would be very happy to see public opinion making it impossible for him to do so. In my view he got away lightly considering what be did, far less severely than the young woman he raped, who is damaged for life and who has had to change her identity. Imagine her and her family seeing this fellow getting back to his ten-grand-a-week job having just had a temporary and minor career blip. That doesn't work for me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:43 AM

We've had threads before on where responsibility should lie for so-called 'date-rape', particularly in these aggravated cases, of which this seems to be one, where a woman admits to having been too drunk to give proper consent, whatever she might appear to have said while in that state. I can well see why one caught up in such a scenario should continue to maintain his innocence.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:52 AM

"the young woman he raped, who is damaged for life and who has had to change her identity"
.,,.

Source of this info, Steve?


≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM

It's not actually true to say he has cleared his debt to society yet: he's been released on licence, having served half of his five years sentence in April 2012.
He can claim whatever he likes about his innocence, our prisons are full of similar recalcitrants, which makes me question the logic of the Parole Board. The fact in Law is that he is a rapist, a fact which will stay on his record for some time after his sentence is purged.
Another aspect is that by taking a very highly-paid job in a top team, he's denying someone with a clean sheet the chance.
If a football team can be dumped to the bottom for acting against the Law, then the same must equally apply to a player.
The answer, then, is for him to be offered the opportunity to start again as a boot-boy apprenctice in a Division Four team, on the same minimum wage, until he has served his full time. Of course, if he then choses to do something else, he should never be allowed back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:18 AM

The fact this is still going strong in the news and public opinion demonstrates it is not clear cut.

Evans is launching an appeal, so the calls by people for him to "face up to his crime as part of his rehabilitation" are premature until that hurdle is over. Most people are still in prison at the time of appeal, he happens to have served his 50% minimum incarceration. Being high profile, keeping quiet one way or another is not easy for him. he is, after all, a footballer, not a philosopher.

That said, he has been found guilty of a crime that precludes certain jobs afterwards due to "being in a position to influence children and vulnerable adults." It can be argued that the footballers of today spend a lot of their time with youth academy, touring schools and youth projects and other community events. Any prospective employer would have to factor in that unless he wins his appeal, he cannot be used in that context, and the law may well prevent him sharing a dressing room, coach or hotel with 16 and 17 year old players. Reserve teams, which most professionals spend time in, have a large number of younger players.

In any event, let us not forget that Sheffield Utd, despite being desperate for a larger squad, have not actually given him his job back, nor have they said that was their intention. Many out of contract players train with teams and Nigel Clough made a humanitarian offer that with 20/20 hindsight, he would perhaps have thought twice about given the issues.

My view? Assuming his guilt bears out, high profile role models, like teachers, health and social care professionals and religious leadership posts are not somewhere for convicted sex criminals to be. The law is quite clear on many specific jobs, but sports professional is a subjective term, so not quite clear cut. Idolatry by children however goes with the job in this case, so I doubt a team should touch him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 07:56 AM

As Steve & I have addressed ourselves to the term 'role model' above, Ian, I feel you are begging the question by re-employing it in your last post. Mr Evans plays football for his living, which is a job like any other at which he happens to be skilled & in which he has some experience. "Role modelling" is no part of the job description, nor in any way written into a footballer's contract. And how you imagine it be part of that of "teachers, health and social care professionals" entirely eludes my comprehension; tho I suppose it might just be considered an implicit part of the role of professional religious practitioners. "Idolatry by children"? So what of it? Is our society to be constituted in accordance with the whims & fantasies of its children?

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM

No, Musket, you presume he has a right to appeal on the same terms and presumptions he was sentenced under. That is not the case.

Firstly, he's been found guilty, so guilty he fundamentally is.

Secondly, he's requested the right to make an appeal, which is not the same as making the appeal. He does not have an automatic right to do so, but has to ask the Court whether the legal foundation he is appealing on indicates sufficient weakness in his conviction to justify the appeal. That can be refused, if the Court feels he has insufficient case: simply saying "I was a famous footballer" is insufficient, the Court replies "Once you were a little boy and are no more. Then you were a famous footballer and are no more. Then you were a rapist and thereby became a criminal, and a criminal you are, and will remain beyond the term you serve, beyond your probationary period, in fact until your record is purged in due time. What you become next is limited by those facts: for example, the military won't take you and you'll never pass a DBS check." He has to show there is sufficient uncertainty in Law as to make a review reasonable, and to be fair, the case is not completely clearcut: the question will be, most probably, whether it was sufficiently so as to make the decision unsafe. Other grounds for appeal may exist.

One argument that this may not exist is that his request for appeal is not being treated with alacrity. The Law hates being wrong, and will normally bustle to correct matters as far as possible, or at least stop it getting any worse, when it suspects it might have screwed up. That his request to appeal is still not granted two and a half years after he was sentenced, long after the period within which he had to lodge the grounds, argues that they may be specious.

Only conditionally on his being authorised to appeal, predicated on his ability to demonstrate the possibility of an error in law in his conviction, which can include new evidence and its indirect implication, but not direct evidence in the record on which he was tried, can he appeal. His appeal hearing will then be predicated on the onus on him to prove his innocence: whereas in his first case he was able to benefit from a presumption of innocence, now the Court starts from a presumption of guilt and he has to prove his innocence. That change of balance can be significant.

The Law on the consequences of a sexual offense are rather broadbrush, intentionally so as to sweep up the scenarios where the lack of morality which opened the door to one offence might open the door to others: if someone's unreliable in one thing, how cananyone say he'll be reliable in another? And therefore, the usual career path to someone leaving professional football, teaching and coaching, is likely to be barred to him.

Now, it could be he has an ace up his sleeve proving his innocence, and once and above all if proved, he must be treated as innocent. But that is at this point hypothetical, and the reality dominant, that he is guilty and we must treat him as such. Even if he proves his innocence, he has no recourse against anyone who treats him as a criminal between his conviction and his successful appeal, or the end of his sentence and purging of his criminal record, as appropriate, whichever comes first.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 09:02 AM

You are wrong on two aspects. 1. Musket not Ian, but this time it is Ian. 2. His job description includes promoting and working for Sheffield United Academy, same as all professionals on their payroll.

Players have to have standard DBS check in order to provide this (and I quote from their standard contract) "ambassadorial role model function.". In order to carry out the role with Sheffield Children's Hospital, those involved have enhanced DBS, and the service level agreement with the hospital trust includes that stipulation. This is now in the public domain but as an ex regulator of the trust I am aware of and have assessed the football contracts that exist with many clubs in the region covered by that specialist trust.

Football clubs do so much more than kick leather these days. Community outreach is a role model aspect. Endorsement of products is a role model aspect.

You can be very naive at times. He cannot carry out the academy role even if they gave him a contract to merely train and play. He is, as per teachers, health and social care workers etc already barred from the academy aspect of his former job until such time as he comes off the sex offender register.

Not my view, you had a view I am comfortable with by Musket above. This is just laying down the facts. I possibly know more than most, for my sins, about safeguarding, having been involved in such things professionally up till earlier this year and if this had happened say three years ago, I would have been the one asking the hospital trust for assurances regarding disclosure of role model visitors to the hospital. I can say with confidence that since Saville, that is tighter now anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 09:41 AM

I just Googled for details about Evans. It seems this was one of those cases where males (there were two in this case) had sex with a 19 year old female who was "deemed too drunk to consent".
Yes, the law states clearly that it is 'rape' when consent cannot be rationally given. No doubt Mr. Evans is claiming either that she did 'give consent' or at least was cooperative.

(yes...as I guessed it was one of those cases)

It is clear that very poor judgment was used by the men... but it it also common for young men in such circumstances to convince themselves that "she was aware and cooperative"...even when she was fairly well intoxicated. The girl/woman... after the fact... obviously would NOT want people to think she was cooperative in such circumstances.... and SHE may not remember clearly what she seemed to agree to. (The story also does not make clear whether the men had been drinking... and if so how much)

This sort of thing happens thousands of times every year... just not always to public figures. It is seldom clear exactly where "too drunk" begins... and obviously, the best advice to men is: "If there is any doubt, don't!" The law is one attempt to set limits and punish bad judgment. Like many "crimes of passion", the perpetrators seldom ask themselves whether they are crossing some arbitrary line.
So...Evans wants to appeal and clear his name..... no surprise. There's probably no more evidence now than there was then to decide that. The only question is: will some combination of his team & the public let him resume his career? Technically, he DID 'pay' for his bad judgment and is legally free to play, but the complex maelstrom of public opinion will probably decide whether he does.

Every day there are people convicted who should not have been and guilty ones who are never convicted or even charged. There are prosecutors who want list of convictions after their name and judges who have varying ideas of sentencing.... and when juries are involved, it becomes a game to play to the perceived attitudes of jury members.

It makes little difference to me whether he is allowed to play or not.... and I am sure glad I don't have any input on that decision!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 12:15 PM

Choose your own sources, MGM. The case and all its details are all over the web.

It ill behoves anyone, especially men maybe, to question the clear conclusion of due process that the young woman was too drunk to consent. At least, not until the extremely unlikely eventuality of the conviction being overturned. That harks back too sharply to the ugly nonsense of "contributory negligence" that emerged from the mouth of a judge some years ago. No-one asks to be raped or invites rape. If you get pissed and are raped whilst insensible it is not your fault. It is always the fault of the perpetrator. Focus always on his actions first and foremost. Best to keep a clear head about that in these cases.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 12:18 PM

I expect, like most participants in and followers of that loathsome game, that Evans the man with the silly first name, is a piece of scum.

But - -   

So, a lady over the age of consent (hypothetically) being a bit piddled but apparently quite clear what she wants, says "Yes please, pretty please with sugar on, do do both of you do do me".   I used to have a girlfriend who was quite overdemonstrative when elevated - as a wall not far from her home, a pub fence, and a loo seat could all separately testify if they had power of speech, not to mention some rather shocked friends of my daughter's to whom she happened to spill a large number of beans at a certain festival.

So what's a bloke to do? Whip out his phone and start recording the enthusiasm, or offend the lady by refusing her suggestions?

I KNOW this is not the norm, but solutions should be pragmatic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 12:26 PM

That is clearly not what happened in this case. I sincerely hope you're not defending this man based on a re-reading of the facts contrary to what legal process concluded. As I said, the facts of the case are all over the web, and you don't have to resort to the tabloids to discover them either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM

I would say the view of a solicitor would be useful.

Wrong again Musket, old lad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:08 PM

Steve -- You made a statement above to which I responded by asking you for your source for it TO WHICH YOU HAVE NOT RESPONDED. Before taking this patronising tone, it would become you to furnish the information I requested:

05:52 AM
"the young woman he raped, who is damaged for life and who has had to change her identity"...
.,,.
Source of this info, Steve? ≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:03 PM

Have you heard of Google, Michael? Had I made an egregious or outlandish claim, supportable by a single source only, I would have given you the link. In this case it is terribly easy to research the case using any of a preponderance of responsible sources. Stop being so bloody ridiculous and just get googling, you lazy ancient bugger. You do not get to give me homework, old chap.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:14 PM

Steve Shaw - You made the claim. You should supply the source. You shouldn't expect ALL your readers to go a-googling because YOU are too lazy to provide the information.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw, stubborn git
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:39 PM

Bugger off, guest, whoever you are. You ask me to provide sources for stuff that you could find out for yourself in thirty seconds from whatever sources suit your own predilection, yet YOU don't even provide your name. Get off your 'arris and get googling, joker!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 12:54 AM

I wouldn't have asked if I had found this particular detail in any of the several google sources I had consulted. But as you appear to be in one of your "Steve's well·known awkward-bugger-today" modes, then just commune with yourself till you get your temper [& your manners] back, you contrary young bratling!

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 03:48 AM

A predictable response from Steve Shaw (which was why I hid behind the sofa).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

Yet again, anybody trying to debate is, in the eyes of wankers, a liar unless they can provide a web link to something supporting their views.

Not too sure what good that would do the prats asking anyway. We have some on here who can find links to opinions (called facts once they get them on Mudcat) that soldiers were well led by competent generals when they died in their millions, that Israeli terrorists can treat schools and hospitals as legitimate targets, that being gay is choice and disease ridden, that banjos contribute to music, that songs where you know who wrote them can't be folk, that tea can be drunk without cow joice, that Liverpool are still a world class team, that .....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:15 AM

"I expect, like most participants in and followers of that loathsome game, that Evans the man with the silly first name, is a piece of scum."
Do we ignore this as yet another instance where Richard is kind enough to inform us how little regard he has for the game of football or do we point out that several respected members of this forum are also keen football fans? Therefore by his reckoning "pieces of scum"
Personally I am unable to form a firm opinion on this situation since, in recent memory, two players having been imprisoned for causing death by dangerous/drink driving (considered a far worse crime than the above by many) and another jailed for physical assault on a woman were, following their release, allowed to resume their careers at a high profile level of the game.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM

Dearie me. The young woman in question was illegally outed on Twitter multiple times. In the UK rape victims are granted anonymity for life. She has been the victim of vile abuse on social media emanating from supporters of Evans. In consequence, the young lady has changed her identity and moved away from her family. Evans himself has a website which, by dint of what appear to be partial accounts of the notorious night's events, campaigns to denigrate the young lady in an attempt to persuade the world that he's been badly done to. I mean, what part of "damaged" don't you understand? All this is easily available to anyone with a computer and a googling finger, so stop acting so bloody thick, Michael. And, cowardly "guest", I'm one big pussycat so you can come out now. I'll be back in a mo with another message so desist from responding for a little while...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:33 AM

Musket, that is exactly why I was so reluctant to give sources. You end up interminably playing silly buggers with silly buggers who you then start to suspect to be members of the Ched Evans Fan Club...

Agreed, Dave.

I suggest that anyone wishing to form an opinion on all this should read the full details of the court case and the evidence presented. I don't know how to do links, so google "R vs Ched Evans" and read about it on the crimeline website. You'll find it a tad more dispassionate and complete than any of the newspaper sources that I know Michael was hoping I'd provide so that he could shoot me down. Pillock.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST, from behind the sofa
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:44 AM

That's better. You don't need to do a link if you give clear instructions as to where to look. Now Michael can google and find a reliable source. Hooray.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

Quite. I don't happen to do twitter or facebook or myspace any of these "social networking" sites. But thank you for the accessible info which you have at last seen fit to furnish. There: wasn't too bad; didn't hurt all that much, did it, my ickle duckie-wuckling?

Thanx 2 Guest for his help.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:02 AM

Not, mind, having logged on to suggested site, that I found there [perhaps I didn't read carefully enuf?] the bit about her life being ruined, moving house, changing name, & all that pathetic biz that Steve has been urging, & which was what I was requesting a source for.

But let it pass. Life is too short. Probably [tho no promises] shan't trouble myself to log on this thread again anyhow.

Still think Evans has had a several-ways raw deal & Mr Shaw is coming on as a selfrighteous prig, at that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM

Just to go back to ▢-1, & at risk of renewing a controversy several times aired on this forum over the years: I think it an iniquitous anomaly in the law that anyone can be convicted of raping a woman whom the evidence shows to have been too pissed out of her ☠ to remember whether she consented or not. Don't care what anybody sez, that does not appear to me to be justice in any meaningful sense of the term.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:26 AM

That's your opinion. It isn't mine. You're making the cardinal mistake of failing to focus on what the active participant was doing. You imply that the whole thing was somehow her fault. This country has a pathetically-low conviction rate for rape. One in four sex crimes are not even recorded by the police ( headline, today's Grauniad). What a rotten culture when we can have all that as well as Jimmy Savile and institutional abuse by priests. The details of the case in the link I gave suggest to me that due process worked very well in this carefully-managed investigation and trial. The justice system trips up on occasion but this very public case doesn't seem to me to have been in any way sloppily or unfairly handled, given the evidence. You appear to be dismissing it having given it scant consideration (you responded a mere 20 minutes after I suggested the link). Anyone for contributory negligence? Arise, all you misogynists! :-(


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM

"That's better" my arse, sofa (wo)man. That crimeline link was the first thing I saw when I did my own googling. Easily available to anyone who had decided to stop being such a contrary bastard for a minute.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:17 AM

I did log on after all. Yes, I get all that, Steve. Of course it takes, as they say, two to tango; but that works both ways, doesn't it? You seem to me just as prone to accept her version of events -- despite the fact that there is no dispute that she was too pissed to have any recollections of what actually occurred. And you still have not given me the source I requested for the assertion that the young woman's life was ruined, she had been driven from her home, forced to change her name, & all that emotive ah-diddums tearjerkery.

So, as to that aspect of the matter, AND NOTHING ELSE, kindly put up, or shut up & withdraw those assertions.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:25 AM

I think the mark of the man, is Sheffield United are loosing out on this the PFA says he should be allowed to train . with all the bad press being generated for the club a MAN would say I will no longer train for the good of the club until I have cleared my name .
But then football and some footballers thinks ithey above the law of common sense
Keith


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM

You don't give up, do you, Michael? First, you misrepresent what I said in the post that is animating you. I recommend you go back to check. There are plenty of sources on the net that refer to the FACTS that the young woman, subjected to abuse on social media as well as having her name illegally revealed, felt obliged to leave her home town. And she has had to change her identity not once but three times. I really can't help you if you are a closet Ched fan and find these things inconvenient. But here's one link randomly plucked from many available that confirm the above:

www.ibtimes.co.uk › Society › Crime (26 Oct 2014)

I did not say that her life was ruined. I said that she had been damaged for life. Are you going to gainsay that in light of the FACTS I've now presented you with, or do you have a more novel interpretation of how this stuff might have affected her?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 03:09 PM

the problem with celebrities who are paid obscene amounts of money - they get that money because people are willing to be the source of that money. What they do outside of that sport is of great importance to those with integrity. We don't buy from organisations that offend us in some way.
The real problem is that football is not over-populated with that moral insight. We are still reeling from the problems of football hooliganism. Millwall is only the tip of the iceberg.
Until football polices itself effectively it will be tainted.
This issue is a yet another taint.

As a friend says it in the context of rock musicians. When they are producing the money, their minders are not disposed to correct them on their actions.

This issue is very much in that category.

Let him play football but not earn obscene amounts of money. Then we will see his resolve.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 04:05 PM

"Still reeling from football hooliganism."

Try going with us to football matches then. You'll be safe there. My eldest is 31 years old and I tell him of the time before he was born when hooliganism was a problem rather than the odd isolated incident.

We have a convicted rapist wanting to pretend it never happened and a young lady having her life turned upside down and getting death threats for being raped. This is UK not Iran.

What the fuck it has to do with raking historical football issues is beyond me. It's the beautiful game and right now it's half time and we are stuffing the Jocks.

Game on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:32 PM

You may win the battle, but you certainly will not win the campaign.

It appears to me that the Evans affair was a drunken debacle. Was the "young lady" less capable of sensible thought or behaviour than Evans?
If her lack of judgement can be put down to drunkenness,
why not the judgement of Evans?

In these cases personal responsibility must come into the equation, in the real world going to dangerous places, putting yourself in dangerous situations when brain function is affected by drugs or alcohol, can have grave effects.

Most men are predatory by nature, especially when semi-intoxicated, its a sad fact.

The guy maintains that the sex was consensual, an apology would be impossible in the circumstances.
He is possibly a liar, probably a moron, but I smell a politically correct witch hunt, with every minority and self publicist jumping on the band wagon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:19 PM

Drunken debacle? So what information have you got that the rest of us haven't about Evans' alcohol intake that night? Even if he was significantly under the influence, how does that excuse his highly-active role in an assault on a woman who was clearly highly-passive, by all accounts virtually insensible?

Personal responsibility, eh? So you believe that a woman who was raped was guilty of contributory negligence, eh? So whaddya think, ake? He was only 60% responsible for dropping his pants, lifting the skirt and shagging a near-unconscious woman and she was 40% responsible for being shagged? Ish? So what would your figures be? Do you apply the same strictures to men as you do to women?

Most men predatory, eh? What evidence do you have for that? So do you think young women should stay home with mummy and daddy while the young men are all out there tomcatting?

Witch hunt? So who do you think almost all the vile abuse has been levelled at on social media? Was it Ched who had to change his name three times and move to a different town? Did you read the crimeline link and see the extreme care taken over consideration of this case? Still think it was a witch-hunt?

Homophobe AND mysogynist. Nice work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM

Steve you are an idiot. I didn't excuse anyone.
I think these cases need to be looked at reasonably and lessons learned.
Vile abuse on facebook? you don't need to go to facebook to read vile abuse, there is plenty of that around here?
The idiots who use personal abuse are everywhere, fortunately we have only "team Musket" and you.
I never use FB ....if you don't want to get covered in shit keep out of the cludgie!

The case has been turned into a witch hunt by people who feel the need to heighten their profile.....it will serve no purpose.

Making a moron into a martyr will not stop the next drunken debacle from occurring. Only common sense and personal responsibility will do that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM

I am not on Facebook and I don't even know what Twitter is.

If you don't think the case was looked at reasonably, tell us why not. Read that transcript. You are assuming that the legal process went wrong here. Well I think you'd better give us your reasoning. I didn't see much sign of a miscarriage or witch-hunt. And who are these people who wish to " heighten their profile"? Who are you on about? Jess Ennis? Sheffield United sponsors and supporters? Me? How exactly does taking a principled stand against the employment of a convicted rapist in a high-profile celebrity job "heighten one's profile"? Oh, hang on, you don't really think he's a rapist. Just someone who accidentally shagged a woman who was probably to blame anyway for getting herself raped because she was completely out of it and should have realised that men are almost all sexual predators. I forgot.

Tell you what. You're not only a homophobe and misogynist. You're a bloody comedian as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 01:17 AM

No he's not a comedian. Comedians seek out to entertain. He has a warped paranoid view of reality and sees respectable society as a politically correct plot.

There was a time when such people were harmless and you had a good laugh about them once they left the pub. Now, with social media giving them an unfortunate soap box, their crass nastiness is for all to see.

Worst bit is, the likes of him actually think they represent mainstream views.

Sickening.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

I don't think the legal process WENT wrong, I think that in many cases the legal process IS wrong.
We have removed personal responsibility from the equation.
For example, if an intruder breaks into your property and is perhaps a threat to your family, the "legal process" will incarcerate you for protecting family and property.
The legal process is found wanting in many cases, the child abuse cases in England most notably.
The inability to deal with the criminals at the heart of the financial collapse.....too many others to list here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM

As I understand, the law is that 'consent' is not admissible as a defence if it is shown that the woman was too intoxicated to give informed consent. This, I must say, appears to me unjust. Surely justice would be better served if on such occasions rape charges were not brought as a matter of principle, as the question of consent would be impossible to establish satisfactorily.

I seem to remember a longrunning thread addressing this question a few years ago.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 04:44 AM

As you both as British subjects understand it, he is a convicted rapist. He is, as his right, asking a court to consider whether evidence was misinterpreted but unless and until, he is a criminal who is still serving sentence and can be recalled to prison.

His victim meanwhile might just be having to read similar misogynist shit to what you two are inferring.

Just when you think society is moving forward.......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:04 AM

Suggest you learn distinction between 'infer' & 'imply' -- one of those notoriously ignorant catachreses.

I imply nothing; simply express an opinion on what seems to me an anomaly in the adminstration of the law, which you fail entirely to address, whichever "Musket" is on duty this morning of the Three-in-One-&-One-in-Three.

He/they seems/seem to think he/they has/have the authority of The Trinity sometimes, don't he/they just?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:38 AM

Well Michael, here's the thing. A man having sex with a woman who is too drunk to consent is the fully active participant. He's the one who undresses her. He's the one who undresses himself. He's the one who gets the erection, gets on top and gets himself inside. They are not doing it together. He is doing all the doing. There is no equivalence between the pair's activities. It is all one way. No woman expects or Invites rape, no matter how drunk she is or how short her skirt is. To say, or imply, that she is in some way responsible, or part-responsible, for being raped is to do no more than make excuses for the man. That is not the kind of culture I wish to be a part of, thank you. I'm surprised that you seem to be supporting such a culture. Not so so surprised in the case of Akenaton, whose response to this was entirely predictable.

And I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what part of the legal process in this particular case was wanting in any way. Gave you the link to chapter and verse. Read it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 06:29 AM

As I understand, the law is that 'consent' is not admissible as a defence if it is shown that the woman was too intoxicated to give informed consent. This, I must say, appears to me unjust. Surely justice would be better served if on such occasions rape charges were not brought as a matter of principle, as the question of consent would be impossible to establish satisfactorily.

So a green light then for the bloke who meets a girl, deliberately plies her with his manly charms and booze (or drugs, lest we forget) until she can't stand up or think straight, then shags her. By the way, Michael, the girl was 19. What were you doing at 19, or did you never live in the real world?

Do apprise us of any other suggested loopholes you've thought of for letting blokes rape women.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

At 19, I was a Second-Lieutenant in the Royal Army Service Corps. What were you? And what is the point of your question?

At 19 she was three years over the notional legal age of consent. Fail entirely to see where you are coming from.

I read the link you gave, but could find nothing relevant in it whatever. Perhaps you might copy/paste such passage[s] as you consider germane or applicable.

Your final sentence one of best examples of "begging the question" [petitio principii] I have come across recently. Keep up such logic in dispute and you will soon tie yourself in the most elegant of sheepshanks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 08:30 AM

Begging the question my arse. No circularity in that statement. That's your way of sidestepping (you've clearly been taking lessons from Akenaton's latest offerings in that regard). The man was found guilty of rape in what, to me, was a thorough and fair investigation. In accusing me of circularity, you make the a priori assumption that it was not rape. Now is that what you really think? Any more examples of your cherry-picking legal decisions for criticism because they don't sit well with your misogynistic agenda?

At 19 I was a second-year undergraduate at Imperial College. You were a grandly-titled squaddie. My, but don't we BOTH sound so grand! Yet on my 20th birthday I consumed five pints of Exhibition and two-thirds of a bottle of Smirnoff's finest in South Ken and made it back to my digs only with the assistance of two of my mates who had more bloody sense than me. Good job I wasn't a girl, innit. I might have got myself raped and it would have been all my fault. I won't even bother trying to scratch below your surface.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 28 November 12:06 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.