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BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict

GUEST,Steve Shaw 21 Nov 14 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,MikeL2 21 Nov 14 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 20 Nov 14 - 05:45 PM
GUEST 20 Nov 14 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 20 Nov 14 - 12:08 PM
Musket 20 Nov 14 - 09:24 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 14 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw unviolated 20 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,MikeL2 20 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM
Musket 20 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,MikeL2 19 Nov 14 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw, denunicator-in-chief 19 Nov 14 - 02:04 PM
Musket 19 Nov 14 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Folkiedave 19 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM
akenaton 19 Nov 14 - 12:17 PM
Musket 19 Nov 14 - 12:05 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 14 - 11:24 AM
Mr Red 19 Nov 14 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,Mike L2 19 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,MikeL2 19 Nov 14 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,MikeL2 19 Nov 14 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 09:38 AM
Musket 19 Nov 14 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 08:30 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Nov 14 - 05:38 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 14 - 05:04 AM
Musket 19 Nov 14 - 04:44 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM
akenaton 19 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM
Musket 19 Nov 14 - 01:17 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM
akenaton 18 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 06:19 PM
akenaton 18 Nov 14 - 05:32 PM
Musket 18 Nov 14 - 04:05 PM
Mr Red 18 Nov 14 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Selby 18 Nov 14 - 07:25 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 18 Nov 14 - 06:26 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 06:02 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:51 AM

That would, as now in fact, leave things up to him and the club. Neither is obliged to do anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 06:43 AM

hi

Sheffield United have been forced to stop Evans from training with them.

What happens if his appeal succeeds ???

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 05:45 PM

Yes, the court of public opinion... good decision!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 05:24 PM

We'll hallelujah Sheffield United have at last seem sense


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 12:08 PM

There's no law against his going back and so there shouldn't be. If the club makes moves to reinstate him, my guess is that public outrage will stop them short. That would be no bad thing in m'humble. They should heed the cautionary tale of Liverpool players donning those extremely ill-advised t-shirts in support of Luis Suarez when he was facing his racist abuse rap. The club have spent the last couple of years wishing they'd had more bloody sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 09:24 AM

If a third division team can afford a player who can't train with 16 and 17 year olds, can't be in hotels as part of the same party and can't partake of the community outreach programmes their playing staff carry out, I am sure Nigel Clough will make a decision.

But you know,

1. He does not play for them or any other team. He is out of work, having breached his contract.

2. Nobody is under any obligation here. Sheff Utd could renew his contract in order to sell him abroad? That would make financial sense, be seen to help ex offenders back in the community and not risk the bad press, demonstrations etc of putting him back in the squad. Would it make moral sense whilst he is denying his crime though?

3. We have an ex con in the real Sheffield club, more of the kicking seven bells of shit out of a bloke in a nightclub variety, and he kept his head down, atoned and showed remorse, and the club and fans are letting bygones be bygones. The difference here is not only sexual violation and ruining someone's life, but total lack of remorse. His lack of remorse being that he wishes to appeal. Fine. Think about your career once you either win an appeal or show remorse for your crime as part of your rehabilitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 07:39 AM

Sooooo should he be allowed back to play football for Sheffield United


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw unviolated
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM

I was never raped either, hopefully! The point I was trying to make was that you can get totally ratarsed, just about get home without actually being dragged there, THEN go out for the count once you collapse on your bed/sofa/floor. Just because the girl in this case somehow made it into the room doesn't mean she then stayed conscious for the rest of the night. I'm making this point, recognisable I'm sure by many people here, for the benefit of the "well-she-can't-have-been-that-pissed" brigade. Read about what she was like at the kebab shop just before the offence was committed. It's all up there on the Crimeline account. The scenario doesn't need to be fabricated. The details are known and are mostly not disputed. It doesn't help when tendentious accounts are posted that seem to reveal just the bits that make Ched look good and the girl look bad. The judge and jury had to look at all of it. It would help if one or two people here (Michael and akenaton shall remain nameless) did the same instead of adopting a misogynistic lynch-mob mentality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM

Hi Steve

Yea I know what you're saying and I too have always wondered how women manage to do almost everything on what appear to me as dangerously high heels. The killer heels worn today look great on the right woman, but some don't cope all that well.

Yes I also know the feeling of " the day after" and "alcoholic amnesia".

Don't think I was ever raped though...lol

Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM

Students eh? "I must stop drinking vodka, it makes me arse sore."

Like I said, it may not seem fair on young horny men who, let's face it aren't going to breathylise a girl who doesn't object or even seems to encourage, but if you are sober enough to get it up, you are sober enough to wonder if the reaction would be the same if she were sober too.

Rape as a crime is not considered by the reaction of the victim, but their capacity to consent.

If in doubt, keep your dick in your trousers. If she fancies you, there will be other times when both of you are willing, able and up for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 06:21 PM

I saw that video too, Mike, before I read the Crimeline account. But you have to admit that there is something horribly tabloid about your clip. I could muse all night about how young women, often quite inebriated, can cope with stilettos. Think I may have consorted with one or two meself in my misbegotten youth. I marvel at the way women (admittedly not inebriated) can do the jive or the Charleston on Strictly, dancing like whirlwinds on impossibly high and skinny stilettos. It ill behoves men, I feel, to judge how pissed a woman is on the basis of how she copes with her shoes. I used to get very pissed meself of a Friday or Saturday when I was a wastrel student. More often than not I would, somehow, manfully get home, one way or another. Call it the homing urge or the survival instinct. But once home I would collapse on my bed, totally insensible. I would wake up, stinking and groggy as hell, eight hours later, still in my Saturday glad rags, possibly having pissed my pantalons. Someone could have raped me and I wouldn't have known about it.




Know what I'm sayin'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 02:30 PM

Hi Steve

I don't prefer either side of thee situation. I just pointed out that there is another view and to give any readers here who haven;t seen it a chance to see what the Ched Evans side are saying.

The Video in that link did make me think though. That is what I was trying to see what other people thought.

If Ched is guilty then he deserves all he gets and more that will be coming along.

Cheers

Mike

PS Another contentious football situation has risen today with the appointment of Malky McKay as manager of Wigan Athletic. He was fired by Cardiff for sending racist & sexist Emails. Let's watch this one blow up a storm !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw, denunicator-in-chief
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 02:04 PM

Nice rant, Michael. You'd have done all right in those good old lynch mob days. But "adieu thread" my arse. You'll be back. Probably within hours. You always are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 01:51 PM

He has been convicted by a court. If there is doubt, he can provide fresh evidence for appeal. If he can't, the case is closed.

There is always doubt, but let me repeat something I have mentioned;

He has not served his time, he is serving part of it out on licence. To qualify for early release, he has had to convince a panel that he is facing up to his crime and has remorse.

Notwithstanding he could be recalled for professing innocence after professing remorse in order to be freed, it begs the question;

Is he lying now or was he lying last month?

The quality of the verdict is not in question. Evidence germaine to the case was considered. Sorry, but a blog by someone who in his opening paragraphs comes out with three items that do not happen in the judicial process is not worth reading further, so I didn't. As with many fraud cases, not knowing you are the victim of crime does not make it less of a crime. It wasn't a civil case because she complained, it was a criminal case because he raped her. Even if she retracted her own evidence and said that in hindsight she didn't think it a big thing, a court could proceed with the case if it were evident there was not consent at the time. The crime is the crime, not the state, opinion or thoughts of the victim. They are part of the mitigation process, not the judgement.

Statistically, Ian Brady, The Yorkshire ripper and a bloke didn't pay his TV licence could be exonerated in the future through fresh evidence. He shagged someone who was in no state to agree, her capacity to consent was compromised. That's rape. The only question is one of mitigation and his rather short sentence reflects that.

Would I give him a job in a factory surrounded by other men where he has no 1 to 1 access to women? Yes. I have employed a number of ex offenders in my time.

Would I give him a job where the money to pay him comes in part from his being a role model for impressionable children? Very unlikely. He is not employed to kick a ball, he is employed to make money for the club.

Would I give him a job where participation in Sheffield Utd Academy is in his contract? Academic because his inclusion on the sex offenders' register precludes his previous contract of employment as it stands, due to contact with schools, youth and community and Sheffield Childrens' Hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 01:46 PM

So, Akenaton, she was stupid enough to get raped and should consider herself lucky she didn't get murdered, eh? Bloody silly girl went and got that poor footballer in trouble as well! Nothing to do with his scheming, his testosterone and his dick, then!

Well maybe we should have sex ed classes just for girls in all schools to let them know that all men are predators, eh? Let's engender a real siege culture among girls! Oh, sorry, I forgot. You don't believe in education, do you. You dismissed me out of hand, I seem to recall, when I suggested a campaign of education as a alternative to your scheme involving rounding up gay people to force them to be tested.

Incidentally, she was not full of drugs. There were small traces in her body which were deemed toxicologically insignificant. Another example of your altering the facts to fit your prejudices. And once again you refer to the drunken state of the footballers. You don't know any better than I do how drunk they were or weren't but you do seem to be somewhat defending their behaviour on those grounds, "they were all drunk so whaddya expect...?" sort of thing. Yet you attack the young woman for being drunk and asking for it. Misogynist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:51 PM

Folkiedave, read the detailed crimeline account. The apparent inconsistency in the verdicts on the two men is dealt with. Second, Evans has not apologised for his loathsome behaviour. He has apologised to his girlfriend for being unfaithful, that's all.

Yes there have been some egregious miscarriages of justice. But we can't proceed merely on that basis. I've said repeatedly that (having read the crimeline full account) I can't see much wrong in the process that took place. Anyone who thinks that there were flaws needs yo be specific. It's no good vaguely saying that you're uneasy with e verdict or that you think there might be doubt. There is an element of doubt in most criminal convictions, and that rears its head more especially in rape cases. We have to proceed knowing that there will always be some doubt, and weigh it in the balance. Unless we do that there will hardly ever be convictions for rape at all, and justice will not be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:41 PM

Mike L2, your link is what's on Ched Evans's website. I referred to it as a partial account. Read the crimeline link I provided, which describes the young woman's state at the kebab shop, shortly before the offence was committed. The facts of the actual sexual activity are also there in some detail. You may not wish to delve, but this is just to say that the nature of the sexual activity itself is not in dispute.

You know, this is what always seems to happen. Someone who doesn't agree with you demands sources (which you know he will not accept in a million years anyway). You provide information that anyone with a computer, a forefinger and an enquiring mind could have found within minutes (I managed it and I'm as bloody thick as they come). In spite of that, you still get people who choose the one source which they think fits their mindset.

Yes you are cherrypicking. You prefer the tendentious partial version on Ched's website to the detailed, dispassionate and factual FULL account on the crimeline website. If you wish to form a fair opinion, that's entirely the wrong way to go about it. And if you have doubts about the justice system getting it right, tell us what precisely you think went wrong. The whole process, with all the evidence relevant to the case, is there for you to read. Pick out the flaws and let us know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

I am a Sheffield United supporter and NOT a supporter of Ched Evans and his loathsome behaviour.

Some of the views above need answering.

British justice is not infallible. It took Timothy Evans 16 years; two appeals and a judicial enquiry all found he did it. He didn't but he couldn't complain because we hung him,

The Birmingham 6 had the longest appeal in UK history - and it found the verdict sending them to jail for a long time was safe. It wasn't.

Evans is not showing any remorse for his crime because he believes he didn't do it. He has apologised for his loathsome behaviour. If loathsome behaviour was an indictable crime there would be a lot more people in prison. I include the current England football captain.

Having said all that - there is doubt in this case.

Two points - first the woman never complained of rape. She went to the police station the following evening to complain that her drink had been spiked and ti see if her handbag had been handed in.

Secondly if she was too drunk to consent - how come she was too drunk to consent to one and not the other.

To me that throws some doubt in this case and the fact that it is being fast tracked by the CCRC is evidence of that.

REPEAT I believe his crime was loathsome and I am not defencing him.

To be honest there has been a lot of crap talked about this case.

If you still wish to comment may I suggest you read

http://blog.mikesimmons.co.uk/ched-evans-justice-or-absurd-verdict/

first. I am not asking you to change your opinion. But I do ask you to see if you feel there might be a bit of doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:17 PM

The "young lady", admits that she remembers nothing after taking drink, there was also traces of hard drugs in her blood.
How can she maintain that she did not give consent, or at least enough encouragement to suffice for a couple of drunken footballers?

There is also the possibility of entrapment, but I think this is unlikely, given the circumstances described by the footballers.

The "young lady" may be telling the truth as far as she remembers, but stumbling around in the darkness full of drink and drugs and allowing herself to be picked up by complete strangers, is hardly a sign of any sort of responsible behaviour.
She was fortunate that something much worse did not befall her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:05 PM

Aye, fuck off Michael whilst your opinion of rape can still be written off as the confusion of an old man rather than the considered opinion of someone who's views should be taken seriously. When you are in a hole, stop digging.

Mr Red. What football has to do with rape is beyond me. What does Jimmy Saville tell us about disc jockeys? What does Max Clifford tell us about publicists? What does Maurice Grendron tell us about cellists?

Regarding the rapist, he is a rapist, convicted in a court of law. Courts can make the wrong decision and should further evidence come to light, who knows. But Internet bollocks about whether he is a rapist or not? Intelligent people prefer to believe the credibility of the judicial process. In any case, he isn't a convicted rapist by doing the deed but because a court deems him guilty. That makes him a convicted rapist by the same law that says rape is wrong.

He cannot work with children and vulnerable adults, so a large part of the day to day activity of a professional footballer are not open to him till long after his age precludes being a footballer anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 11:24 AM

Effect for affect is a typo. Infer for imply is mere pigshit ignorance.

It is patent to me that this unfortunate young man was yet another victim, as in so many so-called rape cases, of scheming bitch who takes delight in entrapment followed by denunciation, as a sort of sadistic sport.

You selfrighteous denunicaters will doubtless now proceed to no end of sport of your own, in denouncing me, in your turn, for having retailed so patently obvious a scenario. Enjoy. I shall be entirely indifferent, as I now, having said my say and made my points, asseverate once more --

Adieu, thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 11:18 AM

hooliganism was a problem rather than the odd isolated incident.

Hmm. isolated, by how much? Even if I was remotely interested in a genre that has politicians lilly-livered at sensible legislation that impinges on football, I would weigh the consequences against the risk. Those consequences are potentially more than mere irritation. Large crowds are dangerous. Particularly bi-partisan ones. Until football fans en mass accept that, the next disaster awaits.

It begs the question of the judgement of fans that think "He Dun No Wrong". He dun plenty wrong. Whether he dun rape or not.

No one corrected his behavior. He clearly escalated it until he found the limits. He ain't the only one in football, or politics. And he ain't the last neither.

The club that tries to employ him has a huge bargaining advantage on "money" but a gamble on what the rest of the sport will do in response. It will potentially reveal what we already know. Football, the sport, lacks courage, moral fortitude and loves money. Go on prove me wrong. I can wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Mike L2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

Hi

Having problems with "clicky". Hope this does it grrrr



Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:41 AM

hi

Sorry link should be -:

Cheers


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:39 AM

Hi

I realise that this is a highly charged topic and the discussions/arguments reflect this.

I can understand both sides of the debate and I find myself confused.

Steve has made comments particularly about the actual rape itself, describing graphically " who did what to who and how".

I am not sure how he knows this.

Perhaps the attached could provide some guidance as to the actual state as to the victim?

Steve I know I am cherry-picking but I am just trying to consider both sides of the equation.

Please note that I am in no way in favour of rape in any circumstance.

I am just a wee bit concerned as to the validity of the guilty decision in this case.

Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 09:38 AM

Don't worry about Mr Pedant's strictures too much, Musket. Amusing to think that a chap who doesn't know "affect" from "effect" could be so brazen. You'd have thought that a period of linguistic silence from him might have been in order, but at least he's amusing. I mean, what twisted thinking does it take to try to explain "begging the question" by translating the expression into Latin?


You don't think he's just a show-off, do you...? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 08:43 AM

I suggest you look at the legal definition of consent before trying to impress anybody.

Infer & imply.. Why not try to contact the victim and remind her that she should know the difference? Does the difference have any bearing as to her right not to be violated without her consent?

I repeat. He is a convicted rapist. He had to face up to his crime and guilt in order to be released early, so it would be interesting to see what new evidence he is coming up with. I wish no ill nor disproportionate retribution but my understanding is that to retract your position in order to be released on licence risks being recalled to prison. I wonder how, if at all, he is being advised? If he is appealing, then I don't expect him to face up to his crime, but I also fail to see how he was released without convincing the parole system he was rehabilitating from his crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 08:30 AM

Begging the question my arse. No circularity in that statement. That's your way of sidestepping (you've clearly been taking lessons from Akenaton's latest offerings in that regard). The man was found guilty of rape in what, to me, was a thorough and fair investigation. In accusing me of circularity, you make the a priori assumption that it was not rape. Now is that what you really think? Any more examples of your cherry-picking legal decisions for criticism because they don't sit well with your misogynistic agenda?

At 19 I was a second-year undergraduate at Imperial College. You were a grandly-titled squaddie. My, but don't we BOTH sound so grand! Yet on my 20th birthday I consumed five pints of Exhibition and two-thirds of a bottle of Smirnoff's finest in South Ken and made it back to my digs only with the assistance of two of my mates who had more bloody sense than me. Good job I wasn't a girl, innit. I might have got myself raped and it would have been all my fault. I won't even bother trying to scratch below your surface.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

At 19, I was a Second-Lieutenant in the Royal Army Service Corps. What were you? And what is the point of your question?

At 19 she was three years over the notional legal age of consent. Fail entirely to see where you are coming from.

I read the link you gave, but could find nothing relevant in it whatever. Perhaps you might copy/paste such passage[s] as you consider germane or applicable.

Your final sentence one of best examples of "begging the question" [petitio principii] I have come across recently. Keep up such logic in dispute and you will soon tie yourself in the most elegant of sheepshanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 06:29 AM

As I understand, the law is that 'consent' is not admissible as a defence if it is shown that the woman was too intoxicated to give informed consent. This, I must say, appears to me unjust. Surely justice would be better served if on such occasions rape charges were not brought as a matter of principle, as the question of consent would be impossible to establish satisfactorily.

So a green light then for the bloke who meets a girl, deliberately plies her with his manly charms and booze (or drugs, lest we forget) until she can't stand up or think straight, then shags her. By the way, Michael, the girl was 19. What were you doing at 19, or did you never live in the real world?

Do apprise us of any other suggested loopholes you've thought of for letting blokes rape women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:38 AM

Well Michael, here's the thing. A man having sex with a woman who is too drunk to consent is the fully active participant. He's the one who undresses her. He's the one who undresses himself. He's the one who gets the erection, gets on top and gets himself inside. They are not doing it together. He is doing all the doing. There is no equivalence between the pair's activities. It is all one way. No woman expects or Invites rape, no matter how drunk she is or how short her skirt is. To say, or imply, that she is in some way responsible, or part-responsible, for being raped is to do no more than make excuses for the man. That is not the kind of culture I wish to be a part of, thank you. I'm surprised that you seem to be supporting such a culture. Not so so surprised in the case of Akenaton, whose response to this was entirely predictable.

And I'm still waiting for someone to tell us what part of the legal process in this particular case was wanting in any way. Gave you the link to chapter and verse. Read it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:04 AM

Suggest you learn distinction between 'infer' & 'imply' -- one of those notoriously ignorant catachreses.

I imply nothing; simply express an opinion on what seems to me an anomaly in the adminstration of the law, which you fail entirely to address, whichever "Musket" is on duty this morning of the Three-in-One-&-One-in-Three.

He/they seems/seem to think he/they has/have the authority of The Trinity sometimes, don't he/they just?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 04:44 AM

As you both as British subjects understand it, he is a convicted rapist. He is, as his right, asking a court to consider whether evidence was misinterpreted but unless and until, he is a criminal who is still serving sentence and can be recalled to prison.

His victim meanwhile might just be having to read similar misogynist shit to what you two are inferring.

Just when you think society is moving forward.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM

As I understand, the law is that 'consent' is not admissible as a defence if it is shown that the woman was too intoxicated to give informed consent. This, I must say, appears to me unjust. Surely justice would be better served if on such occasions rape charges were not brought as a matter of principle, as the question of consent would be impossible to establish satisfactorily.

I seem to remember a longrunning thread addressing this question a few years ago.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

I don't think the legal process WENT wrong, I think that in many cases the legal process IS wrong.
We have removed personal responsibility from the equation.
For example, if an intruder breaks into your property and is perhaps a threat to your family, the "legal process" will incarcerate you for protecting family and property.
The legal process is found wanting in many cases, the child abuse cases in England most notably.
The inability to deal with the criminals at the heart of the financial collapse.....too many others to list here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 01:17 AM

No he's not a comedian. Comedians seek out to entertain. He has a warped paranoid view of reality and sees respectable society as a politically correct plot.

There was a time when such people were harmless and you had a good laugh about them once they left the pub. Now, with social media giving them an unfortunate soap box, their crass nastiness is for all to see.

Worst bit is, the likes of him actually think they represent mainstream views.

Sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM

I am not on Facebook and I don't even know what Twitter is.

If you don't think the case was looked at reasonably, tell us why not. Read that transcript. You are assuming that the legal process went wrong here. Well I think you'd better give us your reasoning. I didn't see much sign of a miscarriage or witch-hunt. And who are these people who wish to " heighten their profile"? Who are you on about? Jess Ennis? Sheffield United sponsors and supporters? Me? How exactly does taking a principled stand against the employment of a convicted rapist in a high-profile celebrity job "heighten one's profile"? Oh, hang on, you don't really think he's a rapist. Just someone who accidentally shagged a woman who was probably to blame anyway for getting herself raped because she was completely out of it and should have realised that men are almost all sexual predators. I forgot.

Tell you what. You're not only a homophobe and misogynist. You're a bloody comedian as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM

Steve you are an idiot. I didn't excuse anyone.
I think these cases need to be looked at reasonably and lessons learned.
Vile abuse on facebook? you don't need to go to facebook to read vile abuse, there is plenty of that around here?
The idiots who use personal abuse are everywhere, fortunately we have only "team Musket" and you.
I never use FB ....if you don't want to get covered in shit keep out of the cludgie!

The case has been turned into a witch hunt by people who feel the need to heighten their profile.....it will serve no purpose.

Making a moron into a martyr will not stop the next drunken debacle from occurring. Only common sense and personal responsibility will do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:19 PM

Drunken debacle? So what information have you got that the rest of us haven't about Evans' alcohol intake that night? Even if he was significantly under the influence, how does that excuse his highly-active role in an assault on a woman who was clearly highly-passive, by all accounts virtually insensible?

Personal responsibility, eh? So you believe that a woman who was raped was guilty of contributory negligence, eh? So whaddya think, ake? He was only 60% responsible for dropping his pants, lifting the skirt and shagging a near-unconscious woman and she was 40% responsible for being shagged? Ish? So what would your figures be? Do you apply the same strictures to men as you do to women?

Most men predatory, eh? What evidence do you have for that? So do you think young women should stay home with mummy and daddy while the young men are all out there tomcatting?

Witch hunt? So who do you think almost all the vile abuse has been levelled at on social media? Was it Ched who had to change his name three times and move to a different town? Did you read the crimeline link and see the extreme care taken over consideration of this case? Still think it was a witch-hunt?

Homophobe AND mysogynist. Nice work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:32 PM

You may win the battle, but you certainly will not win the campaign.

It appears to me that the Evans affair was a drunken debacle. Was the "young lady" less capable of sensible thought or behaviour than Evans?
If her lack of judgement can be put down to drunkenness,
why not the judgement of Evans?

In these cases personal responsibility must come into the equation, in the real world going to dangerous places, putting yourself in dangerous situations when brain function is affected by drugs or alcohol, can have grave effects.

Most men are predatory by nature, especially when semi-intoxicated, its a sad fact.

The guy maintains that the sex was consensual, an apology would be impossible in the circumstances.
He is possibly a liar, probably a moron, but I smell a politically correct witch hunt, with every minority and self publicist jumping on the band wagon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 04:05 PM

"Still reeling from football hooliganism."

Try going with us to football matches then. You'll be safe there. My eldest is 31 years old and I tell him of the time before he was born when hooliganism was a problem rather than the odd isolated incident.

We have a convicted rapist wanting to pretend it never happened and a young lady having her life turned upside down and getting death threats for being raped. This is UK not Iran.

What the fuck it has to do with raking historical football issues is beyond me. It's the beautiful game and right now it's half time and we are stuffing the Jocks.

Game on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 03:09 PM

the problem with celebrities who are paid obscene amounts of money - they get that money because people are willing to be the source of that money. What they do outside of that sport is of great importance to those with integrity. We don't buy from organisations that offend us in some way.
The real problem is that football is not over-populated with that moral insight. We are still reeling from the problems of football hooliganism. Millwall is only the tip of the iceberg.
Until football polices itself effectively it will be tainted.
This issue is a yet another taint.

As a friend says it in the context of rock musicians. When they are producing the money, their minders are not disposed to correct them on their actions.

This issue is very much in that category.

Let him play football but not earn obscene amounts of money. Then we will see his resolve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM

You don't give up, do you, Michael? First, you misrepresent what I said in the post that is animating you. I recommend you go back to check. There are plenty of sources on the net that refer to the FACTS that the young woman, subjected to abuse on social media as well as having her name illegally revealed, felt obliged to leave her home town. And she has had to change her identity not once but three times. I really can't help you if you are a closet Ched fan and find these things inconvenient. But here's one link randomly plucked from many available that confirm the above:

www.ibtimes.co.uk › Society › Crime (26 Oct 2014)

I did not say that her life was ruined. I said that she had been damaged for life. Are you going to gainsay that in light of the FACTS I've now presented you with, or do you have a more novel interpretation of how this stuff might have affected her?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:25 AM

I think the mark of the man, is Sheffield United are loosing out on this the PFA says he should be allowed to train . with all the bad press being generated for the club a MAN would say I will no longer train for the good of the club until I have cleared my name .
But then football and some footballers thinks ithey above the law of common sense
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:17 AM

I did log on after all. Yes, I get all that, Steve. Of course it takes, as they say, two to tango; but that works both ways, doesn't it? You seem to me just as prone to accept her version of events -- despite the fact that there is no dispute that she was too pissed to have any recollections of what actually occurred. And you still have not given me the source I requested for the assertion that the young woman's life was ruined, she had been driven from her home, forced to change her name, & all that emotive ah-diddums tearjerkery.

So, as to that aspect of the matter, AND NOTHING ELSE, kindly put up, or shut up & withdraw those assertions.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM

"That's better" my arse, sofa (wo)man. That crimeline link was the first thing I saw when I did my own googling. Easily available to anyone who had decided to stop being such a contrary bastard for a minute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:26 AM

That's your opinion. It isn't mine. You're making the cardinal mistake of failing to focus on what the active participant was doing. You imply that the whole thing was somehow her fault. This country has a pathetically-low conviction rate for rape. One in four sex crimes are not even recorded by the police ( headline, today's Grauniad). What a rotten culture when we can have all that as well as Jimmy Savile and institutional abuse by priests. The details of the case in the link I gave suggest to me that due process worked very well in this carefully-managed investigation and trial. The justice system trips up on occasion but this very public case doesn't seem to me to have been in any way sloppily or unfairly handled, given the evidence. You appear to be dismissing it having given it scant consideration (you responded a mere 20 minutes after I suggested the link). Anyone for contributory negligence? Arise, all you misogynists! :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM

Just to go back to ▢-1, & at risk of renewing a controversy several times aired on this forum over the years: I think it an iniquitous anomaly in the law that anyone can be convicted of raping a woman whom the evidence shows to have been too pissed out of her ☠ to remember whether she consented or not. Don't care what anybody sez, that does not appear to me to be justice in any meaningful sense of the term.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:02 AM

Not, mind, having logged on to suggested site, that I found there [perhaps I didn't read carefully enuf?] the bit about her life being ruined, moving house, changing name, & all that pathetic biz that Steve has been urging, & which was what I was requesting a source for.

But let it pass. Life is too short. Probably [tho no promises] shan't trouble myself to log on this thread again anyhow.

Still think Evans has had a several-ways raw deal & Mr Shaw is coming on as a selfrighteous prig, at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

Quite. I don't happen to do twitter or facebook or myspace any of these "social networking" sites. But thank you for the accessible info which you have at last seen fit to furnish. There: wasn't too bad; didn't hurt all that much, did it, my ickle duckie-wuckling?

Thanx 2 Guest for his help.

≈M≈


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