BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 08:43 AM

I suggest you look at the legal definition of consent before trying to impress anybody.

Infer & imply.. Why not try to contact the victim and remind her that she should know the difference? Does the difference have any bearing as to her right not to be violated without her consent?

I repeat. He is a convicted rapist. He had to face up to his crime and guilt in order to be released early, so it would be interesting to see what new evidence he is coming up with. I wish no ill nor disproportionate retribution but my understanding is that to retract your position in order to be released on licence risks being recalled to prison. I wonder how, if at all, he is being advised? If he is appealing, then I don't expect him to face up to his crime, but I also fail to see how he was released without convincing the parole system he was rehabilitating from his crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 09:38 AM

Don't worry about Mr Pedant's strictures too much, Musket. Amusing to think that a chap who doesn't know "affect" from "effect" could be so brazen. You'd have thought that a period of linguistic silence from him might have been in order, but at least he's amusing. I mean, what twisted thinking does it take to try to explain "begging the question" by translating the expression into Latin?


You don't think he's just a show-off, do you...? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:39 AM

Hi

I realise that this is a highly charged topic and the discussions/arguments reflect this.

I can understand both sides of the debate and I find myself confused.

Steve has made comments particularly about the actual rape itself, describing graphically " who did what to who and how".

I am not sure how he knows this.

Perhaps the attached could provide some guidance as to the actual state as to the victim?

Steve I know I am cherry-picking but I am just trying to consider both sides of the equation.

Please note that I am in no way in favour of rape in any circumstance.

I am just a wee bit concerned as to the validity of the guilty decision in this case.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:41 AM

hi

Sorry link should be -:

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Mike L2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

Hi

Having problems with "clicky". Hope this does it grrrr



Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 11:18 AM

hooliganism was a problem rather than the odd isolated incident.

Hmm. isolated, by how much? Even if I was remotely interested in a genre that has politicians lilly-livered at sensible legislation that impinges on football, I would weigh the consequences against the risk. Those consequences are potentially more than mere irritation. Large crowds are dangerous. Particularly bi-partisan ones. Until football fans en mass accept that, the next disaster awaits.

It begs the question of the judgement of fans that think "He Dun No Wrong". He dun plenty wrong. Whether he dun rape or not.

No one corrected his behavior. He clearly escalated it until he found the limits. He ain't the only one in football, or politics. And he ain't the last neither.

The club that tries to employ him has a huge bargaining advantage on "money" but a gamble on what the rest of the sport will do in response. It will potentially reveal what we already know. Football, the sport, lacks courage, moral fortitude and loves money. Go on prove me wrong. I can wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 11:24 AM

Effect for affect is a typo. Infer for imply is mere pigshit ignorance.

It is patent to me that this unfortunate young man was yet another victim, as in so many so-called rape cases, of scheming bitch who takes delight in entrapment followed by denunciation, as a sort of sadistic sport.

You selfrighteous denunicaters will doubtless now proceed to no end of sport of your own, in denouncing me, in your turn, for having retailed so patently obvious a scenario. Enjoy. I shall be entirely indifferent, as I now, having said my say and made my points, asseverate once more --

Adieu, thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:05 PM

Aye, fuck off Michael whilst your opinion of rape can still be written off as the confusion of an old man rather than the considered opinion of someone who's views should be taken seriously. When you are in a hole, stop digging.

Mr Red. What football has to do with rape is beyond me. What does Jimmy Saville tell us about disc jockeys? What does Max Clifford tell us about publicists? What does Maurice Grendron tell us about cellists?

Regarding the rapist, he is a rapist, convicted in a court of law. Courts can make the wrong decision and should further evidence come to light, who knows. But Internet bollocks about whether he is a rapist or not? Intelligent people prefer to believe the credibility of the judicial process. In any case, he isn't a convicted rapist by doing the deed but because a court deems him guilty. That makes him a convicted rapist by the same law that says rape is wrong.

He cannot work with children and vulnerable adults, so a large part of the day to day activity of a professional footballer are not open to him till long after his age precludes being a footballer anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:17 PM

The "young lady", admits that she remembers nothing after taking drink, there was also traces of hard drugs in her blood.
How can she maintain that she did not give consent, or at least enough encouragement to suffice for a couple of drunken footballers?

There is also the possibility of entrapment, but I think this is unlikely, given the circumstances described by the footballers.

The "young lady" may be telling the truth as far as she remembers, but stumbling around in the darkness full of drink and drugs and allowing herself to be picked up by complete strangers, is hardly a sign of any sort of responsible behaviour.
She was fortunate that something much worse did not befall her.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

I am a Sheffield United supporter and NOT a supporter of Ched Evans and his loathsome behaviour.

Some of the views above need answering.

British justice is not infallible. It took Timothy Evans 16 years; two appeals and a judicial enquiry all found he did it. He didn't but he couldn't complain because we hung him,

The Birmingham 6 had the longest appeal in UK history - and it found the verdict sending them to jail for a long time was safe. It wasn't.

Evans is not showing any remorse for his crime because he believes he didn't do it. He has apologised for his loathsome behaviour. If loathsome behaviour was an indictable crime there would be a lot more people in prison. I include the current England football captain.

Having said all that - there is doubt in this case.

Two points - first the woman never complained of rape. She went to the police station the following evening to complain that her drink had been spiked and ti see if her handbag had been handed in.

Secondly if she was too drunk to consent - how come she was too drunk to consent to one and not the other.

To me that throws some doubt in this case and the fact that it is being fast tracked by the CCRC is evidence of that.

REPEAT I believe his crime was loathsome and I am not defencing him.

To be honest there has been a lot of crap talked about this case.

If you still wish to comment may I suggest you read

http://blog.mikesimmons.co.uk/ched-evans-justice-or-absurd-verdict/

first. I am not asking you to change your opinion. But I do ask you to see if you feel there might be a bit of doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:41 PM

Mike L2, your link is what's on Ched Evans's website. I referred to it as a partial account. Read the crimeline link I provided, which describes the young woman's state at the kebab shop, shortly before the offence was committed. The facts of the actual sexual activity are also there in some detail. You may not wish to delve, but this is just to say that the nature of the sexual activity itself is not in dispute.

You know, this is what always seems to happen. Someone who doesn't agree with you demands sources (which you know he will not accept in a million years anyway). You provide information that anyone with a computer, a forefinger and an enquiring mind could have found within minutes (I managed it and I'm as bloody thick as they come). In spite of that, you still get people who choose the one source which they think fits their mindset.

Yes you are cherrypicking. You prefer the tendentious partial version on Ched's website to the detailed, dispassionate and factual FULL account on the crimeline website. If you wish to form a fair opinion, that's entirely the wrong way to go about it. And if you have doubts about the justice system getting it right, tell us what precisely you think went wrong. The whole process, with all the evidence relevant to the case, is there for you to read. Pick out the flaws and let us know.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:51 PM

Folkiedave, read the detailed crimeline account. The apparent inconsistency in the verdicts on the two men is dealt with. Second, Evans has not apologised for his loathsome behaviour. He has apologised to his girlfriend for being unfaithful, that's all.

Yes there have been some egregious miscarriages of justice. But we can't proceed merely on that basis. I've said repeatedly that (having read the crimeline full account) I can't see much wrong in the process that took place. Anyone who thinks that there were flaws needs yo be specific. It's no good vaguely saying that you're uneasy with e verdict or that you think there might be doubt. There is an element of doubt in most criminal convictions, and that rears its head more especially in rape cases. We have to proceed knowing that there will always be some doubt, and weigh it in the balance. Unless we do that there will hardly ever be convictions for rape at all, and justice will not be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 01:46 PM

So, Akenaton, she was stupid enough to get raped and should consider herself lucky she didn't get murdered, eh? Bloody silly girl went and got that poor footballer in trouble as well! Nothing to do with his scheming, his testosterone and his dick, then!

Well maybe we should have sex ed classes just for girls in all schools to let them know that all men are predators, eh? Let's engender a real siege culture among girls! Oh, sorry, I forgot. You don't believe in education, do you. You dismissed me out of hand, I seem to recall, when I suggested a campaign of education as a alternative to your scheme involving rounding up gay people to force them to be tested.

Incidentally, she was not full of drugs. There were small traces in her body which were deemed toxicologically insignificant. Another example of your altering the facts to fit your prejudices. And once again you refer to the drunken state of the footballers. You don't know any better than I do how drunk they were or weren't but you do seem to be somewhat defending their behaviour on those grounds, "they were all drunk so whaddya expect...?" sort of thing. Yet you attack the young woman for being drunk and asking for it. Misogynist!

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 01:51 PM

He has been convicted by a court. If there is doubt, he can provide fresh evidence for appeal. If he can't, the case is closed.

There is always doubt, but let me repeat something I have mentioned;

He has not served his time, he is serving part of it out on licence. To qualify for early release, he has had to convince a panel that he is facing up to his crime and has remorse.

Notwithstanding he could be recalled for professing innocence after professing remorse in order to be freed, it begs the question;

Is he lying now or was he lying last month?

The quality of the verdict is not in question. Evidence germaine to the case was considered. Sorry, but a blog by someone who in his opening paragraphs comes out with three items that do not happen in the judicial process is not worth reading further, so I didn't. As with many fraud cases, not knowing you are the victim of crime does not make it less of a crime. It wasn't a civil case because she complained, it was a criminal case because he raped her. Even if she retracted her own evidence and said that in hindsight she didn't think it a big thing, a court could proceed with the case if it were evident there was not consent at the time. The crime is the crime, not the state, opinion or thoughts of the victim. They are part of the mitigation process, not the judgement.

Statistically, Ian Brady, The Yorkshire ripper and a bloke didn't pay his TV licence could be exonerated in the future through fresh evidence. He shagged someone who was in no state to agree, her capacity to consent was compromised. That's rape. The only question is one of mitigation and his rather short sentence reflects that.

Would I give him a job in a factory surrounded by other men where he has no 1 to 1 access to women? Yes. I have employed a number of ex offenders in my time.

Would I give him a job where the money to pay him comes in part from his being a role model for impressionable children? Very unlikely. He is not employed to kick a ball, he is employed to make money for the club.

Would I give him a job where participation in Sheffield Utd Academy is in his contract? Academic because his inclusion on the sex offenders' register precludes his previous contract of employment as it stands, due to contact with schools, youth and community and Sheffield Childrens' Hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw, denunicator-in-chief
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 02:04 PM

Nice rant, Michael. You'd have done all right in those good old lynch mob days. But "adieu thread" my arse. You'll be back. Probably within hours. You always are.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 02:30 PM

Hi Steve

I don't prefer either side of thee situation. I just pointed out that there is another view and to give any readers here who haven;t seen it a chance to see what the Ched Evans side are saying.

The Video in that link did make me think though. That is what I was trying to see what other people thought.

If Ched is guilty then he deserves all he gets and more that will be coming along.

Cheers

Mike

PS Another contentious football situation has risen today with the appointment of Malky McKay as manager of Wigan Athletic. He was fired by Cardiff for sending racist & sexist Emails. Let's watch this one blow up a storm !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 06:21 PM

I saw that video too, Mike, before I read the Crimeline account. But you have to admit that there is something horribly tabloid about your clip. I could muse all night about how young women, often quite inebriated, can cope with stilettos. Think I may have consorted with one or two meself in my misbegotten youth. I marvel at the way women (admittedly not inebriated) can do the jive or the Charleston on Strictly, dancing like whirlwinds on impossibly high and skinny stilettos. It ill behoves men, I feel, to judge how pissed a woman is on the basis of how she copes with her shoes. I used to get very pissed meself of a Friday or Saturday when I was a wastrel student. More often than not I would, somehow, manfully get home, one way or another. Call it the homing urge or the survival instinct. But once home I would collapse on my bed, totally insensible. I would wake up, stinking and groggy as hell, eight hours later, still in my Saturday glad rags, possibly having pissed my pantalons. Someone could have raped me and I wouldn't have known about it.




Know what I'm sayin'?

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM

Students eh? "I must stop drinking vodka, it makes me arse sore."

Like I said, it may not seem fair on young horny men who, let's face it aren't going to breathylise a girl who doesn't object or even seems to encourage, but if you are sober enough to get it up, you are sober enough to wonder if the reaction would be the same if she were sober too.

Rape as a crime is not considered by the reaction of the victim, but their capacity to consent.

If in doubt, keep your dick in your trousers. If she fancies you, there will be other times when both of you are willing, able and up for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM

Hi Steve

Yea I know what you're saying and I too have always wondered how women manage to do almost everything on what appear to me as dangerously high heels. The killer heels worn today look great on the right woman, but some don't cope all that well.

Yes I also know the feeling of " the day after" and "alcoholic amnesia".

Don't think I was ever raped though...lol

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw unviolated
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM

I was never raped either, hopefully! The point I was trying to make was that you can get totally ratarsed, just about get home without actually being dragged there, THEN go out for the count once you collapse on your bed/sofa/floor. Just because the girl in this case somehow made it into the room doesn't mean she then stayed conscious for the rest of the night. I'm making this point, recognisable I'm sure by many people here, for the benefit of the "well-she-can't-have-been-that-pissed" brigade. Read about what she was like at the kebab shop just before the offence was committed. It's all up there on the Crimeline account. The scenario doesn't need to be fabricated. The details are known and are mostly not disputed. It doesn't help when tendentious accounts are posted that seem to reveal just the bits that make Ched look good and the girl look bad. The judge and jury had to look at all of it. It would help if one or two people here (Michael and akenaton shall remain nameless) did the same instead of adopting a misogynistic lynch-mob mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 07:39 AM

Sooooo should he be allowed back to play football for Sheffield United

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 09:24 AM

If a third division team can afford a player who can't train with 16 and 17 year olds, can't be in hotels as part of the same party and can't partake of the community outreach programmes their playing staff carry out, I am sure Nigel Clough will make a decision.

But you know,

1. He does not play for them or any other team. He is out of work, having breached his contract.

2. Nobody is under any obligation here. Sheff Utd could renew his contract in order to sell him abroad? That would make financial sense, be seen to help ex offenders back in the community and not risk the bad press, demonstrations etc of putting him back in the squad. Would it make moral sense whilst he is denying his crime though?

3. We have an ex con in the real Sheffield club, more of the kicking seven bells of shit out of a bloke in a nightclub variety, and he kept his head down, atoned and showed remorse, and the club and fans are letting bygones be bygones. The difference here is not only sexual violation and ruining someone's life, but total lack of remorse. His lack of remorse being that he wishes to appeal. Fine. Think about your career once you either win an appeal or show remorse for your crime as part of your rehabilitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 12:08 PM

There's no law against his going back and so there shouldn't be. If the club makes moves to reinstate him, my guess is that public outrage will stop them short. That would be no bad thing in m'humble. They should heed the cautionary tale of Liverpool players donning those extremely ill-advised t-shirts in support of Luis Suarez when he was facing his racist abuse rap. The club have spent the last couple of years wishing they'd had more bloody sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 05:24 PM

We'll hallelujah Sheffield United have at last seem sense

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 05:45 PM

Yes, the court of public opinion... good decision!

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 06:43 AM

hi

Sheffield United have been forced to stop Evans from training with them.

What happens if his appeal succeeds ???

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Ched Evans - footballer & convict
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:51 AM

That would, as now in fact, leave things up to him and the club. Neither is obliged to do anything.