Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Mar 15 - 02:29 AM

Obviously, I delight in logging onto Mudcat where I can engage with the lower orders, followed by perambulating towards a folk club in a local hostelry where I can cohort with the proletariat over a glass of cheap beer.

Rather entertaining to hear aspirational banter regarding what is ours by right.







On a more honest note, the '80s me would think me posh. When my boys were young, I used to point out lambs in the fields and shout "Mint sauce!"

Now, with my granddaughter, I shout "Garlic and rosemary!"

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 15 - 12:34 AM

Of course, if you are not posh then you will be eating buckling and not caviar, because you know that buckling is far superior.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Pauline Lerner
Date: 29 Mar 15 - 10:08 PM

In some ways I could be considered posh. I have a PhD, but not in music, and I was trained as a classical violinist. I still love classical as well as folk music. I used to make pretty good money and live comfortably, but now I'm unemployed and broke. I may be posh. I can't carry a tune, so my fiddle is my voice. I play folk music pretty well. I've heard people who play better and people who play worse. I play in tune, keep the beat, love what I'm doing, and I'm certainly entitled to play.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Mar 15 - 07:04 AM

Too late I think MGM, these things come in for limited periods, and its all gone from ours. But it will probably be back, possibly next Christmas. Same with lobsters. Keep your eye on the weekly sales booklet they leave out, usually gives one week notice on their specials.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Mar 15 - 06:32 AM

Sounds a good deal! Shall nip out to Aldi in Ely & get a jar!.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Mar 15 - 02:42 AM

Not Cod, not Lumpfish, not Beluga either to be honest, but from a cross-breed of Amur and Kaluga sturgeon. Originally £9.99 a jar, but I got several at £4.99.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Mar 15 - 02:39 AM

I was in Azerbaijan a few years ago. If you saw the stinking oil film ridden almost barren cess pool called The Caspian Sea, you might think twice about Beluga.

Mind you. Street sellers in Baku always claim their wares are the very best Beluga and apparently the one outside our friend's apartment block used to supply The Kremlin. Presumably via the same Sony TV box he kept his stock in.....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Mar 15 - 12:23 AM

I suspect that the 'caviar' sold at Aldi will be of the lumpfish, rather than the true Beluga sturgeon, variety -- which is quite palatable, & not a bad imitation at that, flavour-wise. But not that posh!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 15 - 12:22 AM

ALDI C[od roe]aviar

always read the small print on the back of the lable

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Nixon
Date: 28 Mar 15 - 11:01 PM

LadyJean: The best folk singer I ever heard was a woman who had trained as an opera singer. She had suffered a nervous breakdown and had given up on opera, and pursued a career as a visiting nurse instead. Her folk singing was very rich and soulful, and not a bit like any opera singing I've ever heard.

Dave: your ALDI must be a lot different than mine, if they sell caviar. Maybe I misquoted Nixon on that matter.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: LadyJean
Date: 28 Mar 15 - 06:40 PM

My mother, who was pretty posh, (My friends called her The Duchess.) taught me "Three Old Ladies Got Locked in a Lavatory", and a couple of similar classics.

One of the girls in my school was the daughter of an opera singer. The lady would inflict herself on us once a year in a special assembly that, generally ran through recess. She sang folk songs, but they sounded like opera, with high notes, trills and all the rest. It was hard to understand her, and generally not so great.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Mar 15 - 03:55 PM

Good, that means that even with the lobsters and the caviar I am not posh.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 15 - 03:46 PM

Richard Nixon said, "If the President does it, that means it's not illegal."
And I think he would add, "If they sell it at ALDI, that means it's not posh."

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Mar 15 - 03:19 PM

Gosh, I didn't realise that buying a lot of smoked salmon made you posh. I buy a lot of smoked salmon. I buy it from Aldi mind you. Does that make me posh?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 05:43 AM

Or as the late Tony Capstick would say,

I wandered lonely as a cloud,
That floats on high,
Along trees and river banks,
I trod upon a bloke's bare arse,
And heard a woman's voice say thanks.

Anyway, enough of the trials and tribulations of poor Justin. We need to define posh, and perhaps limericks can help us after all.

There was a young man of high station,
Found by a pious relation,
Making love in a ditch
To I won't say a bitch,
But a woman of no reputation.

(There, that's posh because posh people say someone has a reputation as a compliment. Where I come from, saying she has a reputation infers ten bob on the mantelpiece.)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 11:12 PM

I hope that the Ron Shuttleworth who posted his song up there was Ron from Coventry Mummers, still going strong.
Chris Marden.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:20 PM

She was always writing poems,
Wishing she still had her teef
And I think she's very funny
But you don't share my belief.

No you'd rather have your daffies
Willie Wordsworth wrote about,
And this rhyme does fit the meter,
So please go and sing it out.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:24 PM

I am too lazy to log out and comment as GUEST: Why wasn't I born black?

Nothing says conspicuous self-consciousness than a middle aged, middle class white woman from Virginia, trying to sing prison and work songs with attempted authenticity. I think I get away with it, because I am in the UK and they are too polite to point out the irony.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:31 AM

There's a lot of rehabs down here in the west country,
their bread 'n' butter intake business being druggies from all over the rest of the nation..

Coincidently, a fair few amateur singers & musos on the local scene now have plummy accents... ???

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:03 AM

Anyway, the real toffs don't waste money on shrinks, they take a shotgun worth £50 000 and use cartridges costing £2 a pop to reduce pheasants raised at £20 a head to larder meat worth £1 a head.
And in between times they drown a few worms.
Whereas we take instruments costing £2 000 a go, and travel paying fares of £20 a head for a band of 3, to play in windy church halls and the upstairs of pubs for an audience of 3 paying £1 each. Each to our own...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM

Don't worry, they're on tranks, you can practice to your heart's content PFR, you'll not wake them next door.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:48 AM

errrm..ahem.. wayward aristocrats in rehab.. shhhh...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:41 AM

Back of the net!

😜

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:33 AM

"how come so many posh people need to spend ££££$$$ on therapy...???"

I thought that was overpaid "celebrities" rather than "posh" people - they are rarely the same people.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:24 AM

"It means anybody who doesn't think their whole life is someone else's fault...."

so... how come so many posh people need to spend ££££$$$ on therapy...???

...ooohh.. the sheer anguish of being so rich and so unloved and misunderstood....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:48 AM

It means anybody who doesn't think their whole life is someone else's fault....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:25 AM

I have just listened to that programme on McColl linked to in another discussion. I am from Manchester, not nearby Salford. But in those recordings from the late 1960's he sounds posh to me. Like teachers at school who were from somewhere else.

Or did the OP mean a different sort of posh ?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:12 AM

As Bernard Wrigley occasionally pops on Mudcat, I shall honour the bugger with his own words;

Robin Hood could have been a poet,
Had he not taken to his life of crime,
But he wouldn't have been much good,
'Cos he always tried to fit as many words into each line as he possibly could which does tend to bugger up the rhyme.

Anyway...

This isn't about limericks. If we read up, we will see that it is about "She was poor but she was honest."

Different rhyme and meter.

I would also like to take this opportunity to clarify my earlier point in the interest of fandom in general. Pam Ayres has never heard of me, and the only thing we have in common is that I once put an "o" on the end of a line to make it work.

Is she posh? We posh people like to have empathy with the lower orders by pretending to like Pam Ayres whilst secretly reading Wordsworth when nobody is looking.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Hamish
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:00 AM

There was a young man from Dublin
Whose poetry never did rhyme
And it ended too soon.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:05 AM

There was a young man of Japan
Whose poetry never would scan
When asked why it was
He said it's because
I like to get as many words into the last line as ever I possibly can...

Or was it Haiku?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:37 AM

Ah, but it does scan, in the tune associated to "She was poor but she was honest."

That said, dynasty has to be sung fairly quickly. (Comedy is about delivery and cramming syllables is usually a prelude to a punch line.)

He was poor as a banjo-ologist,
Finding rhymes where they just don't scan,
He needs knob gags to make them funny
But Pam Ayres is his biggest fan.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:23 AM

Back on topic........well almost.....I don't think I sound posh but was once accused of it. My accent still has traces of Suffolk where I was brought up, tho some people think I come from Devon, same as my husband! Oh, and lost count of the number of people who've said I sound like Pam Ayres!
But with a Scottish mother and 30 years of living in Scotland I do try to sing in Scots: would never think of trying to "translate" or anglicise a song like "Yellow on the Broom" for example. Ye think ye're daein' nae sae bad, then aebody says "why canna ye sing in yer ain accent?" Whit?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:57 AM

The reason it's not as good is because it doesn't scan.
(e.g. change 'a fellow amphibian' to 'an amphibian' - I'll leave you to work on the last line)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:03 AM

You know, I was going to make the water / Waterman connection to take the piss. Never realised you were.. never mind.

He was poor his feet were soggy
Playing on his old guitar
Caught the glance of a fellow amphibian
Started a dynasty, known near and far

See? Not as good without poo or knob gags.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 11:02 PM

By the way, Alfred Deller was married and had three children.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:35 PM

The story goes that after a concert by the late, famed countertenor Alfred Deller, a woman who had never heard a male alto before came up to him and said, "But sir, you are a—a—a—a eunuch!!"

He peered down at her from his substantial height, his beard and mustache bristling, and in his deep male speaking voice, said, "Madam, I believe the word you are looking for is 'unique!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 08:56 PM

Martin "Waterman" Carthy married Norma Waterson. Get it now?

no.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:43 PM

On the subject of counter tenor, much of the folk repertoire goes right there. It was born in exactly the same circles as sponsored the real castrati, the likes of Farinelli.

This is one of the more alarming book titles I've seen lately:

The Modern Castrato

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 04:55 PM

How do you access these ▭▭▭▭?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 01:21 PM

Musket
Martin "Waterman" Carthy married Norma Waterson. Get it now?
His training, by the way, started as a boy chorister in the Chepel Royal - and then he moved to work with Leon Rosselson in the mid 60s.
On the subject of counter tenor, much of the folk repertoire goes right there. It was born in exactly the same circles as sponsored the real castrati, the likes of Farinelli. It starts with Samuel Pepys learning the recorder (always thought that was a reference though to fingering his inflatable pipe, but no...). The whole idiom is riddled with attempts to reach out to the common woman (all these blithering milkmaids being typically champetre straight from Versailles). We even have a number of kinstruments - the hurdy, for example - which would have died if they hadn't been adopted by those circles.
So we might twist the question to point out that the need to classify the corpus as "folk" comes from people who were not "folk". If they were, they would just be "our" songs - as is the case in the Suffolk/Essex tradition. So perhaps the answer is that ONLY posh people sing Folk Songs, normal people just sing and don't give a damn.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

If your special characters are the same as on my iMac then yes. I have been using smileys with sun glasses (smug bastard Musket) a pile of poo, a donkey (aimed at those who think soldiers are.. Never mind) and various others.

Toilet, joker card, three wise monkeys, the list is endless and relevant.

He was posh but he was silly,
Fumbling on his old iMac
He couldn't find a dodgy smiley
Or a smiling pile of crap

It's the same the whole world over
It's the old that bear the brunt
Of the taunts of good ol' Musket
Creswell's famous silly cunt.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

"Rather, it's just my usual dislike of any singing that tries to sound like someone else." Well, folk musicians routinely tried to sing like other human beings who were folk musicians. E.g. Stick McGhee was likely trying to sing "Railroad Bill" like his father, and since I don't have any recordings of singer-guitarist George McGhee to listen to, thanks Stick.

Speaking of fathers, Arlo Guthrie and Bob Dylan sound similar to each other because they were both emulating Woody Guthrie. But Dylan also emulated others with results I like better, e.g. Tom Ashley ("The House Carpenter").

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 12:52 PM

No we're not, Poppo. No I don't. Don't drag me into that particular bit of your bollox again, thank you.

Could you at least describe some [or even one] of the things I'm supposed to see with these ▭▭▭▭ of yours? I mean, do they show smileys or funny faces or any of the things I can find on Misc Symbols on Special Characters at the bottom of the Edit option -- or what?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 12:37 PM

How are you equipped for wit & wisdom Mike?

Just asking like. A pity you can't see 🐴💤🎶🎵💣🎸😇 or even 🃏🔪🚽. I know you would just love them...

Nothing wrong with counter tenors. You just wonder if the rubber band had slipped a few mills.

So... Can posh people sing folk songs? Well now we are all agreed that folk songs are exactly what I have been saying they are, even Mike and Jim concur now, I can answer the question.

Yes.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 11:45 AM

My computer fulfils all the functions I ask of it, thank you, Poppo. Comprehension of all your manifold facetiousnesses not regarded as indispensable. I simply point out that you are indulging in naught but vanity & vexation of spirit if you desire any of those particular animadversions to have the least effect on me, as I am not equipped to appreciate them.

Live with it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw countertenorphobe
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 11:44 AM

Yes I know it's really Andreas and that he's a lusty family chap really. Nothing personal but I have this thing about countertenors. I'm 63 and you're entitled to a blind spot when you're 63.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 11:20 AM

Mike. Get yourself a real apple then. My iMac, iPhone and iPad see (and produce) them.

PFR. Chicks dig the whiff of a four star hotel rather than sharing a tent with an oik and his banjo. That's two T shirts in the old collection.

Steve. Trust me, it's Andreas, not Andrea. We dirty rotten stinking capitalists know of what we waffle. Some of his more high brow gear is worth sticking on to impress stuck up cows. (Another T shirt in the collection.)

Gone are the days of Barry White and a brandy & babycham. Glad to have hung my Spurs up a few years ago.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw botanist
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 10:15 AM

Privet

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 10:13 AM

Frogbit, henbit, sheep's-bit, hawkbit...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:55 AM

a flower to rhyme with 'it' - violit?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrockers
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM

.... do posh or chav folk singers pull the best class of groupies... ???

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:45 AM

I suppose an anagram of that could be

"O ··· Foul - Filthy - Gross"

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:38 AM

No good -- my  doesn't read those, whatever they are. All I can see is a row of 7 rectangles that say, in teensyweensy itsybitsy letters, 01F/44F inside.

A grievous disappointment to me, but I dessay I shall get over it in course of time.

So just Popalong, my Ickle Duckli-Boodling...

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:35 AM

Yes, Andrea(s) Scholl was on Wireless Three the other day doing his folk song stuff. It was dreary. I came away depressed, though that's happened to me with many a proper folk singer too, even when they were being cheery. I agree more with Al than with Jack about Kathleen Ferrier. What I can't be doing with meself is those Benjamin Britten piano accompaniments. I concede that you can hardly level that one at Blow The Wind Southerly, of course. I suppose she had a go (they were all live BBC recordings if I remember rightly), and that you only need listen if you want to. Which I don't really, not much. And never to Andrea(s).

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:35 AM

If I could have found a flower to rhyme with wit, I would have done.

But we recent posh can't spell krisanthemum.

👻👻👻

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:27 AM

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:18 AM

Pop Pop Pop goes the Popgun
Drip Drop Drip goes its spit
Sniff sniff sniff at its fragrance -
Unmistakable odour of


                   Chrysanthemums

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 08:03 AM

Andreas Scholl singing Vaughan Wlliams folk songs anyone?

Of course I mean't you Mr genetically modified Lion. It's always about you, if you hadn't noticed. Congratulations.

He was poor but as a critic
In the shadow of Irwin's wit
Which is why he ain't world famous
Isn't life a bowl of shit?

😎

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 05:58 AM

its a bit like blaming Bix Beiderbecke for not playing funk, Blind Lemon Jefferson for not plugging in a strat....

Kathleen Ferrier had her place in history, as we all do, and she acquitted herself with distinction. Well done kid! You did what you could with where you found yourself.

middle class people singing folksongs in an authentic folk voice is a relatively recent thing. and it has its fans, and more than a few detractors.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 05:30 AM

I'm relieved to learn that my feeling about this is not based on a prejudice against the upper class. Rather, it's just my usual dislike of any singing that tries to sound like someone else.

That's why I can't stand Kathleen Ferrier's folksong recordings. She wasn't from the ruling class and, from the biographical stuff I've read, seems to have been a thoroughly nice person, but her vocal training left her permanently disabled with an RP accent and style of vocal delivery that she could never shake off. Something like "Blow the Wind Southerly" is a freak show.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 05:24 AM

Which Mike did you mean above at 0440, Popgun -- me or michaelr? True I am a bit crusty, like fine old port, dontchano! If me, however, how am I any sort of a problem? Why, I am the most unproblematic wysywig entity in the whole of recorded history...

And I can sing folksongs, according to the general consensus when I put my youtube channel up -- with just one trivial exception, who used the occasion to denounce me as "a concertina player who can't sing" coz I had called him a rude yobbo on another thread.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 05:01 AM

He was poor, he was a folkie,
Lots of songs that he did know,
But no social class ambition,
Hamstrung by playing a old banjo.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 04:51 AM

Is there a 1954 definition of Posh?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,confused
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 04:48 AM

The song not the singer - says it exactly.And I should know cos I am dead posh( to use the vulgate for you plebs!).
In folk clubs in England it's very trendy to slate the US but one wonderful feature of the place is its disregard for class and surely folk music needs a similar attitude.I sometimes feel ashamed of the polarity I witness in folk clubs.As John Lennon (was he posh?he was certainly richer than most folks!) used to say    Give peace a chance!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM

Now there's a thing..

Now I am all posh, I can define folk and Jim Carroll will have to doff his cap and accept the wisdom of his betters. Mind you, Mike is still a problem, what with him being a bit posh in a crusty sort of way himself...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 04:23 AM

methinks this is terning itno a definitian of Posh. And when did we lay darwn the defineitive of the geanre "Folk"?

Maybe Posh people can spell proper - like.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 01:14 AM

Married into an appropriate family?

Rather intriguing...

She was poor and he was humble
They knew how to have a laugh
So the neighbours did accept them
But clock the state of the marital bath.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bob Hitchcock
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:48 PM

A very interesting question Lady Diamond. I think that the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band posed it quite well in their song "Can Blue Men Sing the Whites". Check it out.

Bob Hitchcock.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:22 PM

I don't imagine anything about Martin, I know him (W2S), he knows me (BNS). His ancestry were Thames watermen, making the family he married into quite appropriate.
There are lessons to be learned about going overboard in the French and Russian Revolutions in class hatred. Not only did the revolutionaries waste their time on harmless prats while allowing the really dangerous politicians free rein, what it actually did was allow even more pompous middle-class prats to imagine they were better men.
I talked a while back about Tony Benn's five questions to someone with power. The thing to remember is that at the top, the only way is down, and they say rags to rags in three generations: many of the toffs are prats who'll not survive because they're not real. Your proper target should be those who abuse power, and you'll find as many of working class origins in that list as you will middle and upper class. A real person won't fall into that trap.
And it's real people we are for, true to themselves, and class hasn't got anything to do with it. It's abuse of class which has, and the two are as different as chalk and cheese. Yes, there is more responsibility to be demanded of an upper-class abuser, but don't let the pipsqeaks off the hook either!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 06:57 PM

Rumpo - as in rumpy pumpy - as in The Rumpo Kid

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Betsy
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 05:58 PM

I imagine Cecil Sharp (all his recording equipment) must have been quite posh as was the well-educated Vaughan Williams .
Martin Carthy and countless other folk performers accents probably sound quite posh when compared to mine
The point is - it takes time and effort to learn and sing a song and if a posh person does so, fair play, I won't knock'em if they do a bit of chanting, but if they try to take the piss out of "our" songs and tradition by childish parody or trying to take the piss in their posh manner I tend to get a bit shirty.
Mind you Rambling Sid Rumbold/Rumpole (spelling?)used to make me laugh as did a couple of British comedy actors of that era

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 05:56 PM

Lady Diamond (What a fake! The ballad, not the OP)
Most of the Child Ballads were written for or by the nobs, the plebs like me only borrowed 'em for a while. If these have too many verses for you a big slice of what we call folk song started life in the theatres and pleasure gardens of London. You could easily repatriate them. They're easy to spot as they have Phoebes and Corydons and Colins in them and half the song is about milkmaids and ploughboys loving their crap lives.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Anonymous
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 04:28 PM

Joseph Scott: Thank you for that very plausible explanation of how Pete Seeger acquired the vocal style that I dislike. The similarity between Lunsford's singing and Seeger's is clear now that you've pointed out the connection, and I dislike the one as much as the other.

I'm relieved to learn that my feeling about this is not based on a prejudice against the upper class. Rather, it's just my usual dislike of any singing that tries to sound like someone else. Do you perchance know whom Bob Dylan is imitating? You can't swing a cat without hitting someone who's obviously trying to sound like Dylan, but I could never figure out where he himself got that odious style.

Lady Diamond: False alarm. Even the few of us who don't revere Pete Seeger's singing won't harbor the prejudice that I spoke of earlier. I'm sure the kitchen boy will love your singing if you use your own voice.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 02:24 PM

Did someone mention dog turds?

She was poor but she was canine,
Squatted on the pavement cold
Hers was fresh and it was reekin'
The others furry, dull and old.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 01:29 PM

Any of them posh ****s born into an affluent life of privilege and self-centred sense of entitlement..

.. will just as likely sing whatever the f@ck they want to !!!


... and not give 2 pedigree dog turds if any of us common scumbags try to tell 'em not to.... ???

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 01:00 PM

It's not whether they can sing or not, it's whether they can keep the time. Most of 'em are the fruit of failed rhythmn method on the part of a certain Scottish knob back in the 1660s anyway.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,John Lennon
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM

For our last number I'd like to ask your help. The people in the cheaper seats clap your hands. And the rest of you, if you'd just rattle your jewellery. We'd like to sing a song called ...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:59 AM

I can spot a bum reference from ten yards.

The thought of someone being too posh to be able to sing a particular genre is some bizarre reverse Eliza Doolittle corner.

Hence I was delighted when the pee & poo started. I am on safe ground there.

See her on the bridge at midnight
Arse just hanging over the rail
Whilst the effect of too many oysters
Makes her face look rather pale

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:49 AM

"Under cover of anonymity, I will admit that I've never liked Pete Seeger's singing...." Pete was emulating (from about age 16 on) the placid-sounding Bascom Lamar Lunsford and H. N. (Hilary Nathan) Dickens, both Southerners born in the 1880s, who were a schoolteacher and a truck driver respectively (among other things). If you listen to the way Lunsford tells a little story just before doing a song, even that timing and enunciating of the storytelling Pete was emulating. So Pete's approach _was_ "authentic." In contrast (imo) to e.g. Josh White's and Joan Baez's.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

Here comes the pee and pooh brigade. Ignore them; they find their pathetic way into every good thread. Don't let them ruin things.
================
Lady Diamond, there is a prejudice against amateur singing in today's world. We might be told, "You're voice is too weak, too nasal, too soft, too husky..." Or in your case, "You have the wrong accent."

That's all brainless. There are many kinds of folk song. If you keep your eyes open, you will find some you are good at.

One hint: my voice teacher told me that it's good vowels that make a song clear to the listener. Let your 'o' be an 'o' and your 'i' be an 'i'.

As for r's, consult your conscience.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM

See him in his bath at midnight,
Returned homeward from the hunt
But there's water on the bathmat,
He's just got out for a dump.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Banacek61
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:25 AM

@richA Even the most base people get out of the bath to crap; it's getting out to pee that is the telling habit.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Banacek61
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:03 AM

@LadyDiamond. What a very interesting thread you've started. I am old and have been around; the best quote I have on this subject is from Mr Tom McConville, famous fiddle player who on occasiion used to play at my side and make me sound really good, on discussing the meanness of some musicians with their knowledge and skills, replied "Why naw man! Music's fer sharin'" (He's a bit Geordie). So, if I haven't made myself clear, you sing love and let the audience tell you if they don't like it. If that's the case, there's always the bath or bicycle rides. I think Sandy Denny's voice was a bit 'posh'. Ah who knows where the time goes?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:04 AM

She was rich but she was randy,
Victim of watching trash TV
She thought oiks were always shaggin'
How convenient for posh old me.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 06:24 AM

nice song Ron!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 06:18 AM

Don't worry Ron. I'd never sing it with a p.a. Perish the thought some poor fucker heard me sing it..

😵

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Ron Shuttleworth
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 06:08 AM

AINT IT ALL A BLOODY SHAME. [A01]
Air: She Was Poor But She Was Honest


[First and last verse OR Chorus]
It's the sime the Country over.                 
It's the poor wot rate* the sorngs,        
But it's the middle-class wot sings 'em,                 
Aint there somefink 'ere wot's wrorng.
        [*This must be pronounced rate as 'rite' sounds like 'write'.

They write sorngs abaht the trials,                  
Of the strugglin' workin' bloke,        
But the wri'er and the singer,                 
Never did an 'ornest stroke.

'Ear 'im sing of social evils,                 
Once a week wiv righteous rige,        
Then free of guilt, support the system,                 
Wot denies a decent wige.

In the li'le coun'ry village,                 
Where the effnic singers dwell,        
First they banks the cash we piys 'em,                 
Then they laughs like bloody 'ell.

Singin' orn the bridge at midnight,                 
Protest ballads to the moon,        
Full of booze and indignation,                 
'e's forgort the bloody tune.

And 'e fought that 'e were fireproof,                 
Till 'is jorb went dahn the drine,        
And 'e jined the poorer classes,                 
And 'e never sang agine.

(optional)                 [not used]        
If you do nort like my ditty,                 
You were nort intended to,        
Look nort wiv anger, but wiv pity.                 
For I'm much the sime as you.


© 1994. Ron K Shuttleworth. All rights reserved.
If attributed, any of my songs may be performed, LIVE and without p.a. by anyone,

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 03:30 AM

THANK YOU - Gurney - 21 Nov 14 - 03:25 PM - for getting my week off to a good start - must have laughed out loud for a good five minutes at that - so good in fact I have it filed away for future use - brilliant!!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 02:49 AM

Now, now GUEST, you mustn't ever criticize our very own Mr. Nostrils. He has done a lot for folk music. And I know that he has on occasion made a fool of himself, but haven't we all.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 12:27 AM

Re: Far From the Madding Crowd (1967)

What's the problem? 'Bushes and Briars' was dubbed by Isla Cameron, and it was not sung Posh - just well-articulated. Dave Swarbrick and Trevor Lucas also played/sang in the film. I do believe their credentials as non-Posh are impeccable too. So there!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:51 PM

Under cover of anonymity, I will admit that I've never liked Pete Seeger's singing; and after reading ChanteyLass' post about his private school education, I realized that what I dislike about his singing (which is the pronunciation, or perhaps enunciation) may be related to this "posh" thing you're all talking about. (To me, posh means an expensively decorated room.) I didn't think my dislike of Seeger's singing was based on a prejudice against his social class, but such it may be. I dislike most opera singing also, and that tends to use the same broomstick-up-the-keester style of enunciation. So, Lady Diamond, there is the possibility that a few members of the lower orders will hold it against you, but obviously we're a very small minority, so it shouldn't deter you.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM

Sing it like it is, and stop all this petty dissection. If You're posh, but like Folk (music and its people ) What the Fuck ?????

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:13 PM

the pc brigade have come to pretty much the same conclusion as Reith with regards to George Formby.

you see, posh folk stick together. if only we would learn the same lesson. you got people on this thread dissing Ewan - which ain't right. and as for Ewan's supporters - they think they have defined folk music, and know the megs arse of everything.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 03:12 PM

Hey DTM: Can a girl named Rhiannon sing the "Blues"?

All this Posh Bosh is Nikulturni. The singing of Folk Songs transcends "Class Status".

"Didn't they release a bit of film recently of Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret doing a bit of improvised folk dancing?"

Visitors to Buckingham palace in the 30s and 40s remarked upon all the singing of popular and folk songs by the royal family. "When I'm Cleaning Windows", A George Formby song was banned by the BBC. The corporation's director John Reith stated that "if the public wants to listen to Formby singing his disgusting little ditty, they'll have to be content to hear it in the cinemas, not over the nation's airwaves". Queen Mary was not amused. The BBC relented and started to broadcast the song.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:57 PM

Posh as posh can be. Quite.

Save yourselves a bit of pain by going forward to 27 seconds.*

* This has been a public service announcement to the service announcement public from a service announcement public announcer, at your service of course.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:24 PM

..if you can imagine a universe where Hugh Laurie is a critically acclaimed blues singer...

then anything is possible.....?????

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:18 PM

"Our"?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM

Richmond and Kew ?
Have posh people started using rhyming slang now as well as singing our songs ?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM

I reckon they charge that in the Costa in the Tesco in Scunthorpe.

Obviously, sunny Scunny is far more posh than Darrnn sarrfff... When your Tesco has a Costa, you are obviously moving up market.

Likewise, when you listen to Ed Sheeran and Seth Lakeman rather than some boring twat using his guitar to tell us his Utopian workers' paradise dreams, you are already up market, what?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM

Dulwich Village of course - and parts of East Dulwich I fear, Northcross Road where we see our dentist for instance where cafes charge £2.20 for an espresso !

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM

... not to mention Richmond or Kew ...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 08:51 AM

"Well now, you have obviously not visited the leafy areas of South Croydon!!!"
Or Dulwich ...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:38 AM

Not to mention social workers trying to sound like trawler fishermen....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:31 AM

If you take "posh" to mean the same as snobbish , then no. Snobs can't really sing folk because they don't really want to sound like other folk do. But a genuine plummy accent is better than some of the fake demotic ones you used to hear.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:36 AM

"There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-) "
';;';'

Well now, you have obviously not visited the leafy areas of South Croydon!!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:14 AM

"There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-) "
';;';'

Yes there is -- in Blackheath.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:02 AM

No? Neither can chavs, diddycoys, tit trousers or those layabouts on street corners pretending to raise money for Socialist Workers Party etc etc.

Hangings too good for 'em dontcha know?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 05:12 AM

Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs? Simple answer NO
But Ewan McColl would have loved you

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 04:41 AM

Try singing Ballad of Jamie Foyers without affecting a Scottish accent....

Presumably, one expects one to put a ferret down one's trousers if one is to sing The Sheffield Grinder? Might as well go the whole hog and black up to sing Swannee River..

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:46 PM

Ah Joe, She thinks she's an alto...

Then she must be a singer, so all of us Mudcatters will love her anyway.

And Bonzo3legs, it is not sarf it is sa'af. There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:42 PM

oh god yes! sunday morning in bed. switch on the radio and the 'holy voices' start.

why DO they do that........
its enough to put you off going to heaven.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:11 PM

Al you're about right...
I love the perfect diction of Barbara Dickson , Maddy Prior and their beautiful voices. I hope we can all understand Tim Hart , Christy Moore Andy Irvine, Jez Lowe and countless others , but it never occurred to me to consider whether they were posh or not. Jeremy Taylor taught at a public school (Possibly Eton) but Posh ? - I'm not sure.
Yes they sing in understandable English , - but Posh ?
Kathleen Ferrier was a truly wonderful singer - not posh , but exposing Folksong in a the only way which was agreeable in period she was living.
The questioner is quiet right, in that, when a posh voice sings "Weel may the Keel row" "Blaydon races" or some such I find it a bit off-putting - I d much prefer them to be sang in natural Geordie voice
but people with posh voices, are tying their best to sing OUR songs so
I suppose my answer to the thread has got to be "Yes they can" but you may need to give them an awful lot of leeway .
Posh voices in ordinary Church services ( especially at Christmas on radio or TV ) has a similar effect on me as I suspect, does the posh people singing Folksong ....on the questioner

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 07:47 PM

... and while we're on the subject of Chesterton:

Up my lads and lift the ledgers,
Sleep and ease are o'er.
Hear the Stars of Morning shouting:
'Two and Two are four.'
Though the creeds and realms are reeling,
Though the sophists roar,
Though we weep and pawn our watches,
Two and Two are Four.

and, for times of financial crisis and courage –

There's a run upon the Bank –
Stand away!
For the Manager's a crank and the Secretary drank,
And the Upper Tooting Bank
Turns to bay!

Stand close: there is a run
On the Bank.
Of our ship, our royal one, let the ringing
Legend run,
That she fired with every gun
Ere she sank.

…and, the specimen verse of the Post-Office Hymn ran thus:

O'er London our letters are shaken like snow,
Our wires o'er the world like thunderbolts go.
The news that may marry a maiden in Sark,
Or kill an old lady in Finsbury Park.

Chorus (with a swing of joy and energy):
Or kill an old lady in Finsbury Park.

I have a personal aversion to the 'Folk Songs with Pianoforte' style of singing, pear-shaped tones etc., but some like them, and you don't have to listen!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:18 PM

i suppose the real question is, can anyone perform folk songs in a way that is universally acceptable?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:33 PM

RB ? He MUST be posh because he doesn't like "plebs" like me going to Garden Parties at Buckingham Palace ,( or Buck House , as he correctly puts it )even if one did grow up living in Cowdray House near Midhurst ( which one did ,ectually ).

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:11 PM

2. Richard Bridge

😎

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:49 PM

hmmm... posh school folkies... mudcatters enjoy compiling lists...

1] Nick Drake...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:41 PM

Ah ha, I detect Genesis!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

Well... the extensive premium quality facilities and resources of public school music education classes,
and family social and business networks,
certainly give posh people a distinct advantage
over musically inclined kids from state schools....



[flashback to the late 1970s.. that bunch of young Millfield boys..
who were fans of our band... knicked all our best riffs..
then recorded at a top studio beacause one of their dad's was mates with Richard Branson...

..and to think, we only let them hang out with us cuz we fancied their older sisters...]

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:13 PM

Posh around Croydon certainly means that one speaks properly - not the hideous sarf London letter dropping cackle!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:35 AM

Hoot - Partridge "distrusted" the "portside out, starboard home" idea for "Posh" and gives other suggestions. He also comments on the Romani "posh" as in "half" (posh-horri = halfpenny and posh-koorona = half-crown).
Achmelvich - I go along with your idea that financial success can affect creativity, though not in all cases, and here I am thinking especially of Picasso. He was certainly well-off when he created "Guernica", one of the greatest paintings ever made.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,LadyDiamond
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:20 AM

I'm reading with great interest! Definitely did not post for the fun of stirring things up and did not think it was a stupid question (Bonzo3legs, how charming you are). I'm really pleased that most people are saying great stuff about singing for the hell of singing. In the places I sing, I've often wondered if being whatever 'authentic' means is more important than being there at all but it doesn't seem to be the case for you lot. Good on you!

LD

PS: Achmelvich I think your comment about rich people not being as good at creating art and being better at buying and selling is fascinating. I don't agree, but it's made me think interesting thoughts so thanks!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM

Lady Diamond (OP) where have you gone?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:58 AM

Thinking Whitby, very true about the pirates!
vernacular songs like Dance to you Daddy sound wrong sung in an operatic voice. Sally gsrdens should work having been written by Yeats but does not sound riht inaa posh voice either. Same problem with Burns songs, and I much preferred the interpretations by that woman from afairground Attraction.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Lady Strumpet
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:48 AM

One finds most folk occasions attended by either retired civil servants or out of work pirates

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:06 AM

Nina and Frederick ? Which goes to show, "can't sing folk 'til thou art folk", as they (didn't) used to say in Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

Baron Frederick Van Pallandt and wife Nina from Denmark had folksy hits with "Listen to The Ocean" and "Sipping Cider Through A Straw " in Britain in the 60s ; I guess that they were "posh" but Jimmy Miller ( McColl ) NEVER !!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:46 AM

Glad you thought it irrational. The only people who shouldn't be allowed to enjoy music are those who think others shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it.

Even then, they can tap their feet discretely...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:17 AM

musket - no, i'm not confused. i may be irrational and probably am unfair but.....i saw gillian welch and dave rawlings a couple of years ago in manchester - one of the best gigs i ever saw. then a few days later i read about cameron and his wife going to the london gig. irrespective of whether this was for political or photo-op type purposes or whether they have a genuine liking for the music, it just made me feel a bit sick. childish too, nae doubt but we can all be irrational at times and let personal feelings for repulsive individuals over-ride our otherwise, easy going and tolerant nature.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:00 AM

This might help. It applies to the Blues but there's a folkie parallel in there ;-)

HOW TO PLAY AND SING THE BLUES

1. Most Blues begin with: "Woke up this morning..."

2. "I got a good woman" is a bad way to begin the Blues unless you stick
something nasty in the next line like "I got a good woman with the
meanest face in town."

3. The Blues is simple. After you get the first line right, repeat it.
Then find something that rhymes, sort of: "Got a good woman with the meanest
face in town. Yes, I got a good woman with the meanest face in town. Got
teeth like alligator, and she weigh 500 pound."

4. The Blues is not about choice. You stuck in a ditch, you stuck in a
ditch. There ain't no way out.

5. Blues cars: Chevys, Fords, Cadillacs and broken-down trucks. Blues
don't travel in Volvos, BMWs, or SUVs. Most Blues transportation is a
Greyhound bus or a southbound train. Jet aircraft and state-sponsored motor
pools
ain't even in the running. Walkin' plays a major part in the blues
lifestyle. So does fixin' to die.

6. Teenagers can't sing the Blues. They ain't fixin' to die yet. Adults
sing the Blues. In Blues, "adulthood" means being old enough to get the
electric chair if you shoot a man in Memphis.

7. Blues can take place in New York City but not in Hawaii or anyplace
in Canada. Hard times in Minneapolis or Seattle is probably just clinical
depression. Chicago, St. Louis, and Kansas City are still great places
to have the Blues. You cannot have the blues anyplace that don't get rain.

8. A man with male pattern baldness ain't the Blues. A woman with male
pattern baldness is. Breaking your leg 'cause you were skiing is not the
blues. Breaking your leg 'cause a alligator be chomping on it is.

9. You can't have no Blues in a office or a shopping mall. The lighting
is wrong. Go out to the parking lot or sit by the dumpster.

10. Good places for the Blues:
a. highway
b. jailhouse
c. empty bed
d. bottom of a whiskey glass

Bad places for the Blues:
a. Nordstrom's
b. gallery openings
c. Ivy League colleges
d. golf courses

11. No one will believe it's the Blues if you wear a suit, 'less you
happen to be an old ethnic person, and you slept in it.

12. Do you have the right to sing the Blues?

Yes, if:
a. you older than dirt
b. you blind
c. you shot a man in Memphis
d. you can't be satisfied

No, if:
a. you have all your teeth
b. you were once blind but now can see
c. the man in Memphis lived
d. you have a 401K or trust fund

13. Blues is not a matter of color. It's a matter of bad luck. Tiger Woods
cannot sing the blues. Sonny Liston could. Ugly white people also got a
leg up on the blues.

14. If you ask for water and your darlin' give you gasoline, it's the Blues.
Other acceptable Blues beverages are:
a. cheap wine
b. whiskey or bourbon
c. muddy water
d. nasty black coffee

The following are NOT Blues beverages:
a. Perrier
b. Chardonnay
c. Snapple
d. Slim Fast

15. If death occurs in a cheap motel or a shotgun shack, it's a Blues
death. Stabbed in the back by a jealous lover is another Blues way to die.
So
are the electric chair, substance abuse and dying lonely on a broken-down
cot.
You can't have a Blues death if you die during a tennis match or while
getting liposuction.

16. Some Blues names for women:
a. Sadie
b. Big Mama
c. Bessie
d. Fat River Dumpling

17. Some Blues names for men:
a. Joe
b. Willie
c. Little Willie
d. Big Willie

18. Persons with names like Amber, Jennifer, Tiffany, Debbie, and
Heather can't sing the Blues no matter how many men they shoot in Memphis.

19. Make your own Blues name Starter Kit:
a. name of physical infirmity (Blind, Cripple, Lame, etc.)
b. first name (see above) plus name of fruit (Lemon, Lime, etc..)
c. last name of President (Jefferson, Johnson, Fillmore, etc.)
Examples: Blind Lime Jefferson, Jackleg Lemon Johnson.

20. No matter how tragic your life, if you own a computer you cannot sing
the blues

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:48 AM

Kathleen Ferrier had a 'posh'sounding singing voice but was not really 'posh' - daughter of a village schoolmaster, left school at 14 to work on a GPO switchboard, married a local bank branch manager (not a wealthy city banker) - she had a wonderful voice but her feet were firmly on the ground.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:29 AM

Kathleen Ferrier could.
And bawdy songs.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:22 AM

Anyone can sing anything they want to, but Peter Pears sounded absurd singing folk songs.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM

With reference to the YouTube clip mentioned above. I am pretty certain that the fiddle-player is not Maud Karpeles. However, one of the dancers does resemble a youthful Douglas Kennedy. So it might be that the fiddler is his wife, who was Maud's sister.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:01 PM

Oh, I love polkas! So, now the question is, "Can Posh People Perform Polish Polkas Properly?"

OK, sorry. I'll leave voluntarily....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:01 PM

As far as I know, Pete Seeger had a pretty posh upbringing and went to a boarding school in Connecticut, so you can just keep singing!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM

I believe this will answer your question, Joe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlIIQ_gA_jA

The answer is yes.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:02 PM

I skipped a few letters. I thought the thread title was, "Can Polish People Sing Folk Songs?" Being married to a Polish maiden, I have to say I'm undecided as of now. She thinks she's an alto, but she's not sure yet....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 03:25 PM

I don't know. Izal is pretty good for writing apologies on.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 03:10 PM

... and sheet music was probably even worse than Izal...???

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:59 PM

Obviously the early collectors of folk music thought so. They published sheet music.
How many 'folk' can read that?
Or afford to buy it.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:50 PM

I sing folk songs and I get out of the bath to have a shit, I must be posh! Am I still allowed?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:47 PM

"Aren't there any money-counting shanties?"

Well, GK Chesterton came up with this stirring ditty:

"There's a run upon the Bank –
Stand away!
For the Manager's a crank and the Secretary drank,
And the Upper Tooting Bank
Turns to bay!

Stand close: there is a run
On the Bank.
Of our ship, our royal one, let the ringing
Legend run,
That she fired with every gun
Ere she sank."

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:56 PM

Speaking of golf, last night I watched Reba while I had baked beans, applesauce, and water for dinner. And it was all good.

Thank you Mary Wheeler for singing folk songs back to roustabouts to confirm that you had them right. Thank you Bascom Lunsford and Emmet Kennedy and your peers for singing folk songs; without you I'd know less about songs like "Been In The Pen So Long"/"Alberta Let Your Hair Hang Low" and "Poor Boy Long Ways From Home" in their historical contexts. Thank you golf player for finding the time to drop by.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:54 PM

During the early part of the Twentieth Century the banner of folk music was carried by the posh people who were running The EFDSS.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM

*winces* No, posh is not an acronym. That particular tale has been debunked so many times (like Ship High In Transit or For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge), I'm always surprised it continues to survive. If you want to know the origin of a word (look it up, frankly!) always be suspicious of an acronymic explanation; they're mostly backronyms. Acronyms are a very modern obsession; they really only began to be used as shorthand from about WWI onwards (Ack-ack, Toc H are early versions).

Posh most likely derives from Romany, although it's not certain (the OED gives a more nebulous origin, for example). According to Partridge's dikker of slang, posh is money, specifically a low value coin such as a halfpenny, and reckons it's recorded as early as the mid 19thC. It gives a second definition of "a dandy", which is the OED origin, but that only dates to the end of the 19thC. Essentially, if you'd got a bit of "posh", you'd got a bit of money. "Port out..." was first recroded only as late as 1935, and it wasn't associated with P&O until 1937 (the '35 mention claimed it to be a US shipping term).

As for posh folk singing folk songs, surely the key word here is folk? Posh folk are folk too, so why shouldn't they sing folk! ;-)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM

Aren't there any money-counting shanties? Laments that the Bank of England's prime rate isn't what it was? Seasonal songs to welcome the annual dividend?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:48 PM

What a fucking stupid question.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:44 PM

you should have kept trying, she used to have a set of felt tips to let you fill in the tatoos after the lock in.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:34 PM

In which case, why did so many barmaids tell me to piss off? You can't blame me for trying. They were lovely, and got more lovely with each pint. Even that tatooed one in The Masons' in Mansfield.

Achmelvich.. A bit confused here about you objecting to someone enjoying a concert?

Back to the subject. Plenty of footage abound with Ralph Vaughan Williams, Benjamin Britten and various sopranos working their way through traditional folk songs. Even posher than me, and I'm so posh, I shout "I'm arriving dear!"

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:33 PM

Why would someone ask such an absurd question..unless it is designed to stir up the nutters. I see that some have stirred already.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:29 PM

A while back there was a documentary on TV(?) about The Critics Group and EMcC...This included Charles Parker(?) singing "The Strawberry Roan". Unfortunately, his upper class accent did nothing for the song at all. This may be because he was trying to sing an american song.His plummy voice rendition almost made me fall off my stool laughing!

I would say therefore that it depends upon how 'posh/upper class/Eton/Harrow/Roedean'your speaking accent is and that you should perhaps, if necessary, choose your material accordingly. Otherwise....just sing and do the songs justice.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:22 PM

But only to and from India

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

John Jacob Niles was pretty posh - yet very successful, wasn't he?
Was there anyone posher than Peter Peers.

folksongs haven't been ringfenced, anyone can have a go.

as far as i'm concerned Musket, you're still a barmaid's idea of a gentleman. the offshore account is the sort of thrifty measure that any Lincolnshire shopkeepers daughter would have taken.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

Pretty sure that the original OP was put up just to start another endless and pointless bit of sniping.

However,for what it is worth, in the early days of the Ballads and Blues Club in London Rory and Alex McEwen (cousins to HRH) were regular performers at the club alongside Ewan & Peggy. They used to sing Blind Gary Davis songs among others.

Somebody said he didn't know what POSH was. It's an abbreviation for "Portside out, starboard home". Cabin choice for wealthy folks when cruising.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:23 AM

Looking at the audience and many performers of BBC4 folk awards shows,

why wouldn't it be a reasonable assumption that the modern 21st century folk music 'industry'
is run by and for a 'traditional' bohemian dopey twat looking upper middle class cultural elite...?????

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:14 AM

i'm sure anyone can enjoy any type of music they like, and if that includes singing it -why not? (however, i do take exception to david cam***n attending a gillian welch gig) but i don't think the upper classes can create good art- their role is to buy and sell it. i don't know why this is. usually musicians lose some or most of their creative edge when they have made enough money to be comfortably off.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:11 AM

"Ewan MacColl was pretty posh himself."
No he wasn't
His parents were Scots, higlaand and lowland, with broad accents
His accent started working class Salford and ended up neutral, but with a good command of a range of accents
Dessribing that a "posh" is absurd - but don't let that get in the way of a bit of grave-dancing, after all, he's only been dead for a quarter of a century!
Describing the revival as "posh" is as silly as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:08 AM

If MacColl were alive today, I'd run off screaming... Despite him being a songwriting hero of mine. Don't worry, MacColl's offshore account where most of his royalties went proved a bit of an embarrassment when their Calum let it slip...

There are some people who think folk is something to do with working class struggle etc. Well, it certainly has, like protest and Elizabethan tunes for royalty to dance to, become part of what is now called the folk tradition. So have many other styles. Most old traditional lyrics are class neutral, being about "sporting and playing" or yearning for past experiences. Cecil Sharpe and co wanted traditional tunes to delight guests sfter dinner when the ladies retired to the drawing room. Posh?

A club I go to fairly regularly is stuffed with £3k plus guitars and the car park makes my BMW look down market.

In fact, going back thirty odd years, in a town with over three thousand miners, there were two of us regularly attending folk clubs to my knowledge. Mostly, it was teachers, social workers, accountants etc. Fairly posh from my perspective...

That's a thought. Hey Al! Back then, I was the bit of rough and you were the posh git!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:05 AM

I don't know what the word "posh" means but I think anyone can sing folk songs.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:00 AM

There's way of singing you sometimes come across in which the song is just a vehicle for the singer singing notes, and that tends be in what can be called a posh voice. But you can get decidedly non posh singers who fall into the same trap.

The point is the song not the singer, and if you put that first it doesn't matter how posh your voice is.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:54 AM

Whatever your accent, you stop being posh when you're singing folk songs.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:48 AM

Come think of it, quite a few Folkies who become popular do end up reasonably well off. So may be we should introduce a cap (maybe similar to the Bankers Bonus cap), that excludes any artist as soon as they start to earn good money.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:43 AM

Let me think, eh no no still don't give a shit.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:40 AM

Really looking to the royal Christmas release of "All Around One's Hat"!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:32 AM

Just sing in your natural voice. Don't try and pretty it up, but don't try to yokelise it either.

Blandiver. Did nobody bother to tell the posters of that video that the opening dance was rapper sword, not Morris?

BTW. Anybody know who the lady violinist was. I can't help thinking it's Maude Karpeles, except that I never heard she played she played the violin.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM

"They must be posh because their shirts aren't plaid?"

No, they must be posh because they're princesses. The point of it is that they are enjoying dancing. (Singing wouldn't work as it is a very old film and there isn't any sound.)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 09:42 AM

What's the point of the video? They must be posh because their shirts aren't plaid?

Lady Diamond, BobKnight basically said it all: "If you love singing, sing!"

There are many kinds of folksong in this world. If a song appeals to you, and if you don't feel uncomfortable singing it, then it's good that you sing it. Your instincts will tell you which songs to avoid.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 09:41 AM

Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRBb_PltQ0o

(it's a bit slow to start, but the dancing bit is near the end, about the last 20 seconds)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Airymouse
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 09:40 AM

Rich, well educated and urban people can and do sing folk songs. Nellie Galt's songs are recorded in the Library of Congress. Her Mulberry Hill, for example, clearly meets any reasonable requirement to be a folk song. Old Nellie lived in Louisville KY and she took voice and piano lessons. I learned a song, "Cosy Mosey," which is a really interesting version of The Cutty Wren that came from Scotland, but had spent 5 generations in Pennsylvania, from a teacher at Duke University. My father went to a boarding school, Andover, and got a degree in chemistry from Harvard, and I promise you that he knew old folk tales and folk songs.
I know Rick Ward's Jobal Hunter, but I can't sing it with his North Carolina accent and style, and I concede that it loses something in the translation. It is a good thing to preserve the old ways of singing ; e.g.,Elizabeth Laprelle, but not all old songs were sung in a peculiar style. My wife's grandfather sang a version of The State of Arkansas, and I don't think I sing it significantly differently from the way he did.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 09:23 AM

Didn't they release a bit of film recently of Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret doing a bit of improvised folk dancing?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 08:47 AM

and clogdancer.....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 08:46 AM

Yes. Her Majesty has a keen interest in the culture of the lower orders and could have pursued a career as a professional folksinger if her duties had not decreed this path was not open to her.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 08:46 AM

Ewan MacColl was pretty posh himself. In fact The Folk Revival is a posh person's game so I'd say you're in good company. Folk Oiks (like me) are exceptions that prove the rule; but we know our place and are quite happy to fling ourselves in the nearest ditch out of deference if not outright authenticity...

'I say, you chaps - anyone for a spot of the old folk dancing? Or should we proceed direct to the jolly old incest, what?'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuqhEix8lGY

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: BobKnight
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 08:39 AM

If you love singing - sing!!

Subject: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,LadyDiamond
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:36 AM

Hello

Just wondered what you thought about posh people singing folk songs.

To provide context, I am posh in the sense I went to a boarding school, speak rather nicely and buy a lot of smoked salmon. I also love folk music - political songs and all - and don't put on a fake accent when I sing The Dowie Dens of Yarrow. Therefore, more often than not, I sound like a posh bird singing a folk song.

Am I a pariah leeching from the ordinary man and woman? Do I just sound really out of place? If Ewan McColl was alive today, would he run off screaming? Or am I a person who enjoys life and music and doesn't sweat the small stuff? Would love to know.

Must dash now - off to the golf club.

LD