Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:06 AM

Nina and Frederick ? Which goes to show, "can't sing folk 'til thou art folk", as they (didn't) used to say in Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Lady Strumpet
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:48 AM

One finds most folk occasions attended by either retired civil servants or out of work pirates

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:58 AM

Thinking Whitby, very true about the pirates!
vernacular songs like Dance to you Daddy sound wrong sung in an operatic voice. Sally gsrdens should work having been written by Yeats but does not sound riht inaa posh voice either. Same problem with Burns songs, and I much preferred the interpretations by that woman from afairground Attraction.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM

Lady Diamond (OP) where have you gone?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,LadyDiamond
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:20 AM

I'm reading with great interest! Definitely did not post for the fun of stirring things up and did not think it was a stupid question (Bonzo3legs, how charming you are). I'm really pleased that most people are saying great stuff about singing for the hell of singing. In the places I sing, I've often wondered if being whatever 'authentic' means is more important than being there at all but it doesn't seem to be the case for you lot. Good on you!

LD

PS: Achmelvich I think your comment about rich people not being as good at creating art and being better at buying and selling is fascinating. I don't agree, but it's made me think interesting thoughts so thanks!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:35 AM

Hoot - Partridge "distrusted" the "portside out, starboard home" idea for "Posh" and gives other suggestions. He also comments on the Romani "posh" as in "half" (posh-horri = halfpenny and posh-koorona = half-crown).
Achmelvich - I go along with your idea that financial success can affect creativity, though not in all cases, and here I am thinking especially of Picasso. He was certainly well-off when he created "Guernica", one of the greatest paintings ever made.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:13 PM

Posh around Croydon certainly means that one speaks properly - not the hideous sarf London letter dropping cackle!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

Well... the extensive premium quality facilities and resources of public school music education classes,
and family social and business networks,
certainly give posh people a distinct advantage
over musically inclined kids from state schools....



[flashback to the late 1970s.. that bunch of young Millfield boys..
who were fans of our band... knicked all our best riffs..
then recorded at a top studio beacause one of their dad's was mates with Richard Branson...

..and to think, we only let them hang out with us cuz we fancied their older sisters...]

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:41 PM

Ah ha, I detect Genesis!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:49 PM

hmmm... posh school folkies... mudcatters enjoy compiling lists...

1] Nick Drake...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:11 PM

2. Richard Bridge

😎

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:33 PM

RB ? He MUST be posh because he doesn't like "plebs" like me going to Garden Parties at Buckingham Palace ,( or Buck House , as he correctly puts it )even if one did grow up living in Cowdray House near Midhurst ( which one did ,ectually ).

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:18 PM

i suppose the real question is, can anyone perform folk songs in a way that is universally acceptable?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 07:47 PM

... and while we're on the subject of Chesterton:

Up my lads and lift the ledgers,
Sleep and ease are o'er.
Hear the Stars of Morning shouting:
'Two and Two are four.'
Though the creeds and realms are reeling,
Though the sophists roar,
Though we weep and pawn our watches,
Two and Two are Four.

and, for times of financial crisis and courage –

There's a run upon the Bank –
Stand away!
For the Manager's a crank and the Secretary drank,
And the Upper Tooting Bank
Turns to bay!

Stand close: there is a run
On the Bank.
Of our ship, our royal one, let the ringing
Legend run,
That she fired with every gun
Ere she sank.

…and, the specimen verse of the Post-Office Hymn ran thus:

O'er London our letters are shaken like snow,
Our wires o'er the world like thunderbolts go.
The news that may marry a maiden in Sark,
Or kill an old lady in Finsbury Park.

Chorus (with a swing of joy and energy):
Or kill an old lady in Finsbury Park.

I have a personal aversion to the 'Folk Songs with Pianoforte' style of singing, pear-shaped tones etc., but some like them, and you don't have to listen!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:11 PM

Al you're about right...
I love the perfect diction of Barbara Dickson , Maddy Prior and their beautiful voices. I hope we can all understand Tim Hart , Christy Moore Andy Irvine, Jez Lowe and countless others , but it never occurred to me to consider whether they were posh or not. Jeremy Taylor taught at a public school (Possibly Eton) but Posh ? - I'm not sure.
Yes they sing in understandable English , - but Posh ?
Kathleen Ferrier was a truly wonderful singer - not posh , but exposing Folksong in a the only way which was agreeable in period she was living.
The questioner is quiet right, in that, when a posh voice sings "Weel may the Keel row" "Blaydon races" or some such I find it a bit off-putting - I d much prefer them to be sang in natural Geordie voice
but people with posh voices, are tying their best to sing OUR songs so
I suppose my answer to the thread has got to be "Yes they can" but you may need to give them an awful lot of leeway .
Posh voices in ordinary Church services ( especially at Christmas on radio or TV ) has a similar effect on me as I suspect, does the posh people singing Folksong ....on the questioner

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:42 PM

oh god yes! sunday morning in bed. switch on the radio and the 'holy voices' start.

why DO they do that........
its enough to put you off going to heaven.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:46 PM

Ah Joe, She thinks she's an alto...

Then she must be a singer, so all of us Mudcatters will love her anyway.

And Bonzo3legs, it is not sarf it is sa'af. There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 04:41 AM

Try singing Ballad of Jamie Foyers without affecting a Scottish accent....

Presumably, one expects one to put a ferret down one's trousers if one is to sing The Sheffield Grinder? Might as well go the whole hog and black up to sing Swannee River..

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 05:12 AM

Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs? Simple answer NO
But Ewan McColl would have loved you

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:02 AM

No? Neither can chavs, diddycoys, tit trousers or those layabouts on street corners pretending to raise money for Socialist Workers Party etc etc.

Hangings too good for 'em dontcha know?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:14 AM

"There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-) "
';;';'

Yes there is -- in Blackheath.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:36 AM

"There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-) "
';;';'

Well now, you have obviously not visited the leafy areas of South Croydon!!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:31 AM

If you take "posh" to mean the same as snobbish , then no. Snobs can't really sing folk because they don't really want to sound like other folk do. But a genuine plummy accent is better than some of the fake demotic ones you used to hear.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:38 AM

Not to mention social workers trying to sound like trawler fishermen....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 08:51 AM

"Well now, you have obviously not visited the leafy areas of South Croydon!!!"
Or Dulwich ...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM

... not to mention Richmond or Kew ...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM

Dulwich Village of course - and parts of East Dulwich I fear, Northcross Road where we see our dentist for instance where cafes charge £2.20 for an espresso !

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM

I reckon they charge that in the Costa in the Tesco in Scunthorpe.

Obviously, sunny Scunny is far more posh than Darrnn sarrfff... When your Tesco has a Costa, you are obviously moving up market.

Likewise, when you listen to Ed Sheeran and Seth Lakeman rather than some boring twat using his guitar to tell us his Utopian workers' paradise dreams, you are already up market, what?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM

Richmond and Kew ?
Have posh people started using rhyming slang now as well as singing our songs ?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:18 PM

"Our"?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:24 PM

..if you can imagine a universe where Hugh Laurie is a critically acclaimed blues singer...

then anything is possible.....?????

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:57 PM

Posh as posh can be. Quite.

Save yourselves a bit of pain by going forward to 27 seconds.*

* This has been a public service announcement to the service announcement public from a service announcement public announcer, at your service of course.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 03:12 PM

Hey DTM: Can a girl named Rhiannon sing the "Blues"?

All this Posh Bosh is Nikulturni. The singing of Folk Songs transcends "Class Status".

"Didn't they release a bit of film recently of Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret doing a bit of improvised folk dancing?"

Visitors to Buckingham palace in the 30s and 40s remarked upon all the singing of popular and folk songs by the royal family. "When I'm Cleaning Windows", A George Formby song was banned by the BBC. The corporation's director John Reith stated that "if the public wants to listen to Formby singing his disgusting little ditty, they'll have to be content to hear it in the cinemas, not over the nation's airwaves". Queen Mary was not amused. The BBC relented and started to broadcast the song.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:13 PM

the pc brigade have come to pretty much the same conclusion as Reith with regards to George Formby.

you see, posh folk stick together. if only we would learn the same lesson. you got people on this thread dissing Ewan - which ain't right. and as for Ewan's supporters - they think they have defined folk music, and know the megs arse of everything.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM

Sing it like it is, and stop all this petty dissection. If You're posh, but like Folk (music and its people ) What the Fuck ?????

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:51 PM

Under cover of anonymity, I will admit that I've never liked Pete Seeger's singing; and after reading ChanteyLass' post about his private school education, I realized that what I dislike about his singing (which is the pronunciation, or perhaps enunciation) may be related to this "posh" thing you're all talking about. (To me, posh means an expensively decorated room.) I didn't think my dislike of Seeger's singing was based on a prejudice against his social class, but such it may be. I dislike most opera singing also, and that tends to use the same broomstick-up-the-keester style of enunciation. So, Lady Diamond, there is the possibility that a few members of the lower orders will hold it against you, but obviously we're a very small minority, so it shouldn't deter you.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 12:27 AM

Re: Far From the Madding Crowd (1967)

What's the problem? 'Bushes and Briars' was dubbed by Isla Cameron, and it was not sung Posh - just well-articulated. Dave Swarbrick and Trevor Lucas also played/sang in the film. I do believe their credentials as non-Posh are impeccable too. So there!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 02:49 AM

Now, now GUEST, you mustn't ever criticize our very own Mr. Nostrils. He has done a lot for folk music. And I know that he has on occasion made a fool of himself, but haven't we all.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 03:30 AM

THANK YOU - Gurney - 21 Nov 14 - 03:25 PM - for getting my week off to a good start - must have laughed out loud for a good five minutes at that - so good in fact I have it filed away for future use - brilliant!!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Ron Shuttleworth
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 06:08 AM

AINT IT ALL A BLOODY SHAME. [A01]
Air: She Was Poor But She Was Honest


[First and last verse OR Chorus]
It's the sime the Country over.                 
It's the poor wot rate* the sorngs,        
But it's the middle-class wot sings 'em,                 
Aint there somefink 'ere wot's wrorng.
        [*This must be pronounced rate as 'rite' sounds like 'write'.

They write sorngs abaht the trials,                  
Of the strugglin' workin' bloke,        
But the wri'er and the singer,                 
Never did an 'ornest stroke.

'Ear 'im sing of social evils,                 
Once a week wiv righteous rige,        
Then free of guilt, support the system,                 
Wot denies a decent wige.

In the li'le coun'ry village,                 
Where the effnic singers dwell,        
First they banks the cash we piys 'em,                 
Then they laughs like bloody 'ell.

Singin' orn the bridge at midnight,                 
Protest ballads to the moon,        
Full of booze and indignation,                 
'e's forgort the bloody tune.

And 'e fought that 'e were fireproof,                 
Till 'is jorb went dahn the drine,        
And 'e jined the poorer classes,                 
And 'e never sang agine.

(optional)                 [not used]        
If you do nort like my ditty,                 
You were nort intended to,        
Look nort wiv anger, but wiv pity.                 
For I'm much the sime as you.


© 1994. Ron K Shuttleworth. All rights reserved.
If attributed, any of my songs may be performed, LIVE and without p.a. by anyone,

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 06:18 AM

Don't worry Ron. I'd never sing it with a p.a. Perish the thought some poor fucker heard me sing it..

😵

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 06:24 AM

nice song Ron!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:04 AM

She was rich but she was randy,
Victim of watching trash TV
She thought oiks were always shaggin'
How convenient for posh old me.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Banacek61
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:03 AM

@LadyDiamond. What a very interesting thread you've started. I am old and have been around; the best quote I have on this subject is from Mr Tom McConville, famous fiddle player who on occasiion used to play at my side and make me sound really good, on discussing the meanness of some musicians with their knowledge and skills, replied "Why naw man! Music's fer sharin'" (He's a bit Geordie). So, if I haven't made myself clear, you sing love and let the audience tell you if they don't like it. If that's the case, there's always the bath or bicycle rides. I think Sandy Denny's voice was a bit 'posh'. Ah who knows where the time goes?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Banacek61
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:25 AM

@richA Even the most base people get out of the bath to crap; it's getting out to pee that is the telling habit.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM

See him in his bath at midnight,
Returned homeward from the hunt
But there's water on the bathmat,
He's just got out for a dump.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

Here comes the pee and pooh brigade. Ignore them; they find their pathetic way into every good thread. Don't let them ruin things.
================
Lady Diamond, there is a prejudice against amateur singing in today's world. We might be told, "You're voice is too weak, too nasal, too soft, too husky..." Or in your case, "You have the wrong accent."

That's all brainless. There are many kinds of folk song. If you keep your eyes open, you will find some you are good at.

One hint: my voice teacher told me that it's good vowels that make a song clear to the listener. Let your 'o' be an 'o' and your 'i' be an 'i'.

As for r's, consult your conscience.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:49 AM

"Under cover of anonymity, I will admit that I've never liked Pete Seeger's singing...." Pete was emulating (from about age 16 on) the placid-sounding Bascom Lamar Lunsford and H. N. (Hilary Nathan) Dickens, both Southerners born in the 1880s, who were a schoolteacher and a truck driver respectively (among other things). If you listen to the way Lunsford tells a little story just before doing a song, even that timing and enunciating of the storytelling Pete was emulating. So Pete's approach _was_ "authentic." In contrast (imo) to e.g. Josh White's and Joan Baez's.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:59 AM

I can spot a bum reference from ten yards.

The thought of someone being too posh to be able to sing a particular genre is some bizarre reverse Eliza Doolittle corner.

Hence I was delighted when the pee & poo started. I am on safe ground there.

See her on the bridge at midnight
Arse just hanging over the rail
Whilst the effect of too many oysters
Makes her face look rather pale

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,John Lennon
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM

For our last number I'd like to ask your help. The people in the cheaper seats clap your hands. And the rest of you, if you'd just rattle your jewellery. We'd like to sing a song called ...