Tech: using tablet on stage

Subject: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: BK
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:15 AM

I noticed a performer last year using a tablet [computer] for song words on stage the way we use a 3 ring binder. It looked dramatically easier than my awkward system. [and yes, these days my set lists usually last about til get in front of the microphone] Didn't see what brand, etc he was using. I now have an android tablet with "ice cream sandwich." Does anybody know what software, etc might allow this on my android? My hundreds of song words & chords are scatterred in several desktop hard drives. They are almost all in either word perfect or open office format. [We also have a new but extremely cheap laptop running 8.1 but no touch screen, etc..] Any ideas?

Thanx, BK

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:35 AM

Olive Office. And it's free.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 01:48 AM

How about learning the words?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM

I have all my lyrics on my iPad, for easy reference while learning songs and refreshing my memory when necessary, and for my set-lists. I use Onsong, which is excellent. There was talk of a version of Onsong for Android, you could try googling it?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:24 AM

When I do a performance, I have the lyrics to twenty or so songs memorized. And I know about 300 songs I can sing for kids, and maybe 300 hymns. When I'm at a singaround, I like to try a wider variety of songs, and don't always know the lyrics perfectly. I've been using an Amazon Kindle Fire for such situations, and it works well at a reasonable cost.

Big Mick has a stand for his iPad that looks like a music stand, and seems to work very well. There is specific lyrics software available for iPads, but I don't want to pay the price of an iPad. But the iPad software looks terrific.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM

There was a time when our old bass player took certain tablets before going on stage. He still does to a degree. They tend to be of the sanatogen variety these days though, according to his mate ...

I have started learning / relearning songs using the iPad rather than sheets of paper. I must look at On song but for now just put them as PDF in iBooks. They are then also available as a quick reminder on the iPhone before singing them when out and about.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:22 AM

Pretty much my MO too, Joe. I feel no shame that I need to prompt my memory on songs I don't sing very often! :-)

The 'transpose' function is useful in that, where you have the chords included on lyric-pages, you can hit the 'transpose' slider and hey-presto, all the chords are changed to the new key!

The 'Set-List' function in Onsong is very useful indeed, and has the bonus that, as you move through the list, the lyrics are there behind it in case of critical memory-failure.

I have a Konig & Meyer mount which enables me to either mount the iPad holder direct on a straight mic-stand, or use the bracket to side-mount it on a boom-type mic-stand.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:24 AM

I knew I could drag you kicking and screaming into the 21st century, Muskie!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:34 AM

"the way we use a 3 ring binder."
Whence the difference?
Both show a lack of commitment and a disregard for the song and the listener - not worth learning properly and not worth putting in the work to entertain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:05 AM

Why not use an i-Pad player and plug it into the sound system and just play recordings of the songs - right every time then coupled with amazing consistency.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:21 AM

Mobile Sheets is a useful app for Android specifically designed for organising sheet music and songs. If you buy the full version (not expensive) it comes with a free PC program to help index and transfer the files.

Nevertheless I'm with Jim in disapproving of its use on stage.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: BobL
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:27 AM

My song repertoire is so limited that I can sing them all from memory. However, may I draw a parallel with calling dances?

I have over 5000 dances in my library, of which I've actually ever called about 800. Of these, I could probably do about 40-50 from memory, and maybe the same number again after a quick reminder. The rest I have to mug up as necessary. Unfortunately my mind has been known to go blank at critical moments...

    Rule #1 for callers: Know your material so well that you don't need a crib card.
    Rule #0: Always have your crib card to hand anyway.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:05 AM

That's strange, I've read and re-read the OP several times, and I don't see anywhere where he/she asked for the permission of the Mudcat Band of Self-Appointed Arbiters of What Is And Is Not Permissible For Performers to use his/her tablet as an aide-memoire when he/she is performing.

In fact, he/she doesn't need the permission of the MBoS-AAoWI&INPFP, so why drag up all the old, worn-out red-herrings about 'respect for songs' and 'disapproval' (a.k.a. 'self-opinionated bullshit)?

The OP asked for help with using his/her tablet, some of us are trying to help him/her. Why don't the members of the MBoS-AAoWI&INPFP bugger off and start their own thread where they can opine to their hearts' content, and those of us left here can attempt to help the OP with his/her questions?

Please? Pretty please?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:06 AM

I find it useful to have my tablet to use in some singaround sessions I go to where we all join in--I can have the chords and words to songs I do not play often and can find them quickly. We also use them at church so that we all have all the songs in the same arrangements.

I use Songbook, a very cheap but functional piece of software (and you can try it free), that is available for mac, windows and android. It uses the standard chordpro format, and has a utility that will convert "chords above text" style to chordpro format easily (but watch if you import from a text editor that the chords line up properly as it will change the font to a non-proportional one first).

For church, we also use a common, shared dropbox account as Songbook will automatically sync with one. Also nice that it will scroll long songs for you (you can set the rate).

One caveat: I use android and windows versions (I find it easier to edit on my laptop) and have different directories set up for my folk and church music, but I haven't yet been able to find an easy way to do that on an iPad, but then I don't use one so have only tried helping someone who does.

You can find the software here

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:26 AM

Yeah. You will always get the stupid ignorant prats chipping in. Tell 'em to piss off.

Here's the thing. If I perform I perform. No crib etc. Now, relate that into going to a singaround and if you go regularly you soon repeat yourself.

I reckon on about 60 songs I feel I could entertain people with. Another hundred or so I can sing but wouldn't feel a paying audience would deserve. But there are also songs I don't recall all the words to or have a mental block with.

That's where the iPhone comes in for a glance before I get up and the iPad attached to the mic stand when I am learning and recording. (The iPad also remote-controls Logic Pro on the iMac.)

I am coming round to the idea of occasionally getting help with words in singarounds despite everything as it will give me an opportunity to share songs I love but not learning to be part of my "set".

That said, those who sit flicking through their ring binder whilst others are singing are still the spawn of Satan and will be first up against the wall come the glorious revolution.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:26 AM

I've noticed this trend with the younger element who come to our open mike nights. They have the special holder which clips to the mike stand as well. When I go to Greece I put about 60 songs on my kindle from my own lyrics database as the repertoire Yorgos leads in the taverna is more pop based than my blues/skiffle one, if he's sung a song I don't know I look up the words for the following year- inevitably he's then changed his set! Then it's the kazoo or nothing.
I am often surprised that teenagers who've only written a few songs still need to have their own words in front of them.
(Cynically this old grouch would say they are unmemorable, that's why!)

RtS

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:42 AM

A lot of my friends now use tablets or iPads for both songs and sheet music: one of them has a foot-operated "page-turner" for music scores that are more than one page long, tho she did say that device cost almost as much as the tablet.
For any instrumental concerts we do with a pre-decided set list, I insist that everyone puts all the (relevant only) sheet music (if they need it as some do) in set list order in a single folder - a pretty basic request but apparently an alien concept to some! No frantic shuffling thro several folders to find the right pieces, or worse still, piles of loose paper that inevitably scatter themselves randomly all over the floor and hold us all up while disarray and disorganisation is on show and restored to order!
I have an iPad and would like to transfer more stuff on to it, either to iBooks or Pages, but seems it's one file at a time. Is there a way of transferring whole sub-folders in a one-er? Maybe some of the suggested software above can do it?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:48 AM

If you use iCloud with Pages, (which is how Apple intend) you can drop whole folders into your cloud on your desktop machine and Pages will see them.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:49 AM

Musket - I'd rather they flicked through their ring-binders and hummed-and-hawed about which song to do next while others are singing, than perform the process when it's their turn and everyone has to wait five minutes while they make their momentous decision!

Mind you, it gives us time for leak-taking and next-pint-acquisition! 😃👍

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:52 AM

I use Dropbox to move stuff from my Windows PC to my iPad and Android phone. Just drop the files you wish to transfer into your Dropbox folder on your PC, and pull them in via Dropbox on the mobile device(s).

Piece of piss!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:01 AM

Yeah, but it does make you wonder if they think everybody has only turned up to hear their offerings. It also answers the question, are you here to listen?

Dropbox with Windows, true. iCloud with Macs. Sorry, I was being presumptuous. (I also use Dropbox for other things though.)

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

I mentioned |Songbook but forgot to add that it has a setlist function (though they call it playlist). These will also sync through dropbox, which makes things even easier.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 06:22 AM

I can read and listen at the same time! Mmmmm, I can multi-task - am I a woman?
Don't answer that! 😃

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:22 AM

Mrs Musket says "put Masterchef on." Ok, I say, about to sit there bored. She then "watches" Masterchef whilst playing solitaire or Angry Birds on her iPad whilst having a conversation with me thus; "I thought you were staying in tonight? Don't you like Masterchef? Take your bloody key with you then and be quiet when you get back."

Multi tasking isn't just a woman thing. When I wake up, I can rub my eyes, stretch and scratch my bollocks simultaneously. I can also sing and give the evil eye treatment to readers......

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:50 AM

More people are using these and I guess they will become commonplace in lieu of paper music.aanother advantage is that there are various instrument apps that allow music for example, guitar, to be created and edited.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:14 AM

How many people here have gone to a classical music concert of any sort? OK, you can all go back to lowering your hands and sitting on them.

Why is it perfectly acceptable for those who perform the "high art" to have the words or music in front of them while those of us who perform the "low art" end of the scale get censured for it? Music is music. If he were still alive, would you ask Monet to paint without his model/pond in front of him? Get over it.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:25 AM

Personally, I would far, far rather listen to someone sing a song with the words/music in front of them and make a good job of it, than suffer through someone's attempt to do so from memory if it has stops, slips and pauses in it!

I remember being very disappointed the first time I saw Steve Tilston in concert at a festival--He forgot words and just seemed very ill-prepared. Give me someone singing a good interpretation with confidence any day of the week, even if it takes an aide memoir.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:27 AM

Hi BK. I use my iPad for storing all my songs used an APP "GoodReader for iPad" which I believe was free. I find transferring songs from my Mac quite easy, I also keep a copy of someone else singing the songs I song, just to remind me of the tune. I use my iPad when I sing as I have a problem with memory, which according to the medical profession will not get better but will get worse, obviously if I need to listen to the tune this is done well before I sing. There is as previously mentioned "Songbook" which has a couple of advantages if you need them, which I don't. These are that you can get the words to scroll at a speed set by yourself and you can obtain music and keys etc to assist, useful if you accompany yourself on an instrument.
Hope this is helpful and good luck.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:14 AM

I'm a 'affordable new technology is great when used effectively' sort of bloke...

So sod the old moaning miseries...

I've aquired three 7" android tablets, and a couple of nokia lumia windows phones.

My problem is I can't see well enough to read anything on any of them.
I need a much larger screen, bifocal lenses, or separate reading glasses...

Oh well.. middle age is a bastard.. right now it's eyesight and memory on the blink,
hopefully nothing else important is going to stop functioning properly
before I reach 60...

My biggest complaint is that even if extortionately priced apple ipads are superior for musicians,
and the currently accepted 'industry standard',
affordable android is catching up..

But the big music gear companies are still aiding & abetting apple's monopoly
by refusing to issue apps for android.

eg, apps for interfacing with Korg and Zoom products..

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:32 AM

Varifocals, PFR - the One True Path! 👍😜

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:36 AM

I'm with Windhover Weaver on this one, I've never had a problem with anyone using any form of aide memoire as long as it does not detract from the performance. You can get neat tablet holders that attach to mike stands and are quite discrete.

Personally, I don't use anything like that, largely because I'm far too vain to appear on stage with my glasses on, so I've got no choice to learn everything. Of course, being human, there is the odd slip up, but how you handle that is down to stagecraft, a favourite line of mine is to tell the audience that if they really want to know what happens in verse 3, they will just have to buy a CD!

very valid points from EBarnacle above, why is using words/music acceptable in some styles and not in others?

John

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

Performing from a score is a specific skill, if you have acquired it then it doesn't detract from your performance. The problem is the people who:
1. Use the score as an alternative to practice
2. Perform to their notebook rather than to the audience.
Both faults which I haven't seen at classical music concerts but have at folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

I try to learn my songs, but I do have a problem retaining those which I don't sing very often, so I take my iPad to singarounds etc., but try to use it as little as possible.

If I'm 'appearing', either solo or with the band, I have the iPad mounted on my mic stand and use it for my set lists (far better than writing on the back of one's hand, or trying to read a scrap of paper on the floor!). The beauty is that Onsong displays the lyrics to each song in the set-list, in the correct order, so if I 'dry' (and it happens more and more frequently as my 67 year-old brain farts more and more readily) I have a lifeline.

I have no problems with an aide-memoire being used by anyone - far preferable to squirming with embarrassment at a singer's discomfiture during that seemingly-interminable period when he or she is frantically trying to remember the forgotten lyrics, often in vain! But I dislike it intensely when people have clearly made absolutely no attempt to memorise any of their material, and read every line of every song, head down, eyes glued to their loose-leaf binder, and making no attempt to make even the briefest of eye contact with their audience.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 11:06 AM

"Dislike it intensely". Mmmmmm........

A bad choice of words there, I'll rephrase it - "I'm saddened when it's perfectly clear that people have made no attempt.......etc.".

But I believe that anyone who performs should be free to do it in whatever way they feel most comfortable. The most 'disrespectful' thing that can happen to any song is that it not be sung at all.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 11:52 AM

Punkfolkrocker: One great advantage of an app like Songbook (over both paper and PDF readers) is that they can re-size the text on the fly without any need to scroll right-left (impossible if you are playing too). I use a 10" tablet (rather than a 7") I got cheap second-hand and find I can set it to be seen clearly by my old eyes in any setting.

As for iPads being superior, I see no advantage if you are using a tablet just as a song storage/display device. Since I don't do anything with interfaced instruments, I would just be paying extra for useless (to me) extras.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:50 PM

ha ha i have a piano on my blackberry tablet and think i can get an accordian as well..soon i will have an orchestra...

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:35 PM

Cards on table.

Back when no bugger I ever saw used a folder to sing from, back when they were Folk clubs in the real sense, most of us had crib sheets stuck onto guitars anyway..

I had been playing years in folk clubs before I saw someone singing from a piece of paper in a folder. Saw many grab a look first but many folk clubs were stage settings then, so nowhere to put a folder anyway.

I agree with the guest who berates the idea of singing "cold" rather than attempting to get to know a song, sniff its bum etc. Good singers can't do that so why others think they can is beyond me. Remember, nobody in a sing around is annoyed if you can't sing very well or struggle with instruments, your enthusiasm is what counts. But expecting people to sit enthralled whilst you plainly have no idea of what you are singing or have never addressed it?

Here's a fairly contentious thought. The dominance of sing around has been good for enthusiastic people who have little natural talent but has been a disaster for those who may have improved immensely under a more professional atmosphere. Let's face it, we all wouldn't mind getting it right more?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:37 PM

Aaaahh-yup!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: IamNoMan
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:06 PM

"I'm with Windhover Weaver on this one, I've never had a problem with anyone using any form of aide memoire as long as it does not detract from the performance."

The sad thing is it does detract from a performance. As a performer you want the audience to pay attention to you. Sure everybody crashes and burns from time to time; but that too is something a performer needs to learn to deal with. As an audience member I get distracted and sometimes annoyed when my focus shifts to a music stand and associated paraphernalia.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 04:12 PM

"The dominance of sing around has been good for enthusiastic people who have little natural talent but has been a disaster for those who may have improved immensely under a more professional atmosphere."

Spot on, Musket!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

Backwoodsman, I'm with you. When I first saw the thread title, I wondered how long it would take for some folk purist to step up and assert that songs must be memorized. It came on the third message.

The alternative, I guess, is for us to satisfy the purists and sing the same ten songs all our lives.

I think rather than having to follow a bunch of rules, the best thing to do is to do the best you can to present a song to the people hearing it. I notice that Lomax and Sharp and others collected songs from people who were not always the best singers, and who did not always remember lyrics perfectly. But these singers sang the songs the best they could - and carried on the tradition so we have it now.

O you mighty purists, don't condemn other singers for what you see as their shortcomings - listen to them, even if they aren't as good as you think you are.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

Thanks Joe, that's a sensible viewpoint.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 07:14 PM

For me the problem is use of words with little preparation beforehand.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:30 PM

Thanks for the tips re transferring files and folders to iPad: obviously don't use iCloud and Dropbox enough!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: MickyMan
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:06 PM

Last week my music major college boy son was having serious problems in his opera workshop class. The music was very complex and he had lots of trouble emoting his character while he sang ...... until he realized that when the opera was staged his character would be sitting and reading a magazine all through the song. A few well placed notes and the director was singing his praises! He ended up hardly even looking at them, but it gave him the confidence he needed to add more to the performance.
It wasn't a tablet, but it served the same purpose! LOL!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 09:29 PM

I have to have notes when I give a speech, or else I fall apart. Most of the time, I leave the notes on the podium and step closer to my audience - but I have to have those notes nearby for security. Admit it - performing before an audience is stressful, and it sometimes helps to have crutches.

When we sing songs, we should indeed know them thoroughly - but it is often helpful to have notes to fall back on when memory fails us. It's really awkward when a singer forgets a verse and starts over from the beginning....again, and again, and again.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:10 PM

pssst... don't tell the folk club fundamentalists...

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/stageprompter-display-lyrics-chords-and-scores-553470/


"Stageprompter: display lyrics, chords and scores..

.. Many top artists employ PCs, autocue software and off stage operators pressing the down arrow key.
Strategically hidden flat screens supply the words, chords, and even music score.
It's time the rest of us throw away the paper and bad memory's and move up a gear.

The Times Online featured an article, naming many top artists that used some form of complex autocue system.
This practice has remained largely hidden for many years, but who can blame them.
Now a simple solution for all has been found...

... Staffords on Stage, a Cambridge based technology company has come up with the answer.
The Stageprompter, a computer-less solution that features a 22" colour screen, hidden in a floor wedge monitor.
Your lyrics, chords, music score, or anything you want, are saved as images on a memory stick
and displayed on the screen.
Using a foot switch, you move through your prompts at your own pace.
Complete with its own optional flight case, it is designed to handle the rigour of gigging,
roadies and touring transport."

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:19 PM

ps.. a little application of basic DIY skills,
and it should not be too difficult to cobble together a similar 'word memory box' on the cheap.....

hmmm.. a tablet with an HDMI output, a long HDMI cable, and a flat screen monior hidden inside a guitar case..

.. and an offstage accomplice scrolling the words on the tablet for maybe a few free pints..

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 03:53 AM

"I have to have notes when I give a speech, "
There is a big difference between speaking from notes and reading the entire text of the speech.

Public speaking courses teach you not to have the entire text in front of you as you end up looking at the text rather than the audience.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 05:34 AM

Public speaking is good comparison. I never work from a script when giving lectures or addressing a conference etc, as, just like everyone else, I don't write as I speak. I am like many people in that I may never look at my notes but if they weren't there, I'd probably do a Miliband. Notes are bullet points of what I need to get across. Bad enough that students don't see my bit as a core subject and conferences, I am usually the warm up for those they have really come to hear and challenge.

Same with the piece of paper stuck to my guitar. It may have the first line of verses, or a few words I tend to get wrong, but rarely the whole song.

But..

Yes, I have been known to use lyrics, even my iPad before now, in a sing around. Not easy as for other reasons, I have problems sitting and playing, I tend to stand.

I think we are somehow confusing singing with performing. As a listener at a concert, you have expectations of the performer, including body language, ease of delivery and a good performer makes you feel they are addressing you, not a crib sheet. When I was in rock bands, yeah, the running order, keys, which effects pedal etc may have been taped to the floor or on my foldback speaker.

This thread has the words "on stage" in the title. it therefore isn't an excuse for another thread concerning mumbling into a book at a sing around?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:21 AM

Slight thread creep but I remember a school production of "Journey's End" where we were all woefully under-rehearsed. The lines were pasted at strategic points on the flats of the "dugout" and if anyone "dried" the sound operator turned up the shell and gunfire effects disc (a 78 in those days!)while we walked over to the appropriate piece of scenery to check the words!

RtS

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:51 AM

"This thread has the words "on stage" in the title. it therefore isn't an excuse for another thread concerning mumbling into a book at a sing around? "

Come on, this is Mudcat, somebody will always try and turn a discussion about staged performances into one about singarounds.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:13 AM

"somebody will always try and turn a discussion about staged performances into one about singarounds."
Is there a difference - do audiences at singarounds somehow deserve less of an effort?
jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 09:16 AM

Again typical Mudcat, respond to a post as if it said something totally different. Singarounds and staged performances are simply different formats with different criteria for their success.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 09:26 AM

Good question Jim, but let me turn it round.

I will clap and feel empathy with a mate in a pub who hit a few bum notes, forgot his words or tried to over complicate with less than flattering results, but would complain like hell if I had paid £25 to watch Martin Carthy or Martin Simpson and they played similar.

On a much lower level, i.e. me, I will hear something at a singaround and say "You know, that song is similar in storyline and certain phrases to one from the other end of the country. Let's see if I remember it." Whereas if I am at a concert doing my set, I have practiced over the years, got the songs just where I want them and the "spontaneous chat" between songs is sometimes word perfect to twenty years ago.

Like I said, group sharing of songs versus entertaining. The main thing they have in common is, to be fair to your view, that even in group thera.. er singing, the rest of us should expect you have either practiced it so playing at your level or are at a level you can pull it off and not waste three minutes of the lives of others.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 09:44 AM

Would an outline processor (or word processor in outline mode) help?

That way you could, for example, have your complete Child stored in it and just pop out the three ballads you were intending to do.

(I've no idea what outline processors there are on tablets - I've been using them off and on since Acta for the Mac in the mid-80s).

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 02:08 PM

Folk snobbery medals in dropbox!! If I want lyrics with me on stage I shall have them. I don't own an ipad so it would be written or printed large on pieces of paper - the folk snobs know what they can do!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Vrdpkr
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 04:58 PM

I'm lucky enough to do this for a living.
I have a Christmas show, a New Years show, an Easter show, St Pat's, kids programs, 20s and 30s swing for playing the wine tasting rooms, old time Cowboy songs and poetry, Halloween, material for Old Folks homes and school programs and more. There is some overlap, but these are very different situations calling for very different material.

Of course I rehearse everything I'm planning on doing for any given show, but it is hard to keep all of it word perfect in my head. Life is busy and sometimes I don't get all the rehearsal time I'd like. I used to haul around several binders, or rather, the binder I needed for any given show. Heavy, awkward, and my music stand would sag from the load. Now, it all fits on my iPad. Light, easy to use, and it works. If I get a request for something I had not planned on, if I have it, I can do it.
It took a while to get files transferred, and to learn to use it, but I absolutely recommend it.

625 songs and poems on an iPad organized by Onsong.

It's a magic world.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:53 PM

I will repeat - what matters, is that the singer does what it takes to sing the song as best he can. The job of the audience is to listen, and to appreciate the performance and support the performer. It is not the duty of the audience to set artificial restrictions - if a singer feels he or she needs notes to sing his best, that's his business.

I'm a fairly good singer, and I've been singing all my life - mostly for kids and in church. I'm relatively new to this matter of folk singing, so I haven't had a lifetime to memorize a vast repertoire of songs. But there are a lot of songs I know quite well and can sing quite well - still, it helps to have notes at hand in case I need to glance at them.

I went to an invitation-only music weekend last spring, and it cost me $250. Only after I paid my money, was it made known to me that singers are expected to sing without notes or "cheat sheets." I muddled through and sang only songs I knew from memory, but I won't go back. The camp was dominated by three or four aggressive men who, admittedly, had phenomenal memories for lyrics. I ignored the invitation I received for the camp's fall gathering.

I felt excluded, that I had been judged "not good enough."

So, yeah, when snooty folkies insist that singers must sing without lyrics sheets, I think it's bigotry and it gets me angry. Because the use of a lyrics sheet isn't what matters - it's how the singer sings the song.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:19 PM

well i am an omniist and believe in absolutely every side of a situation. But I don't think a paying audience has the job. It is a market. They should be able to make informed decisions. You should have been told ahead of time what the rules were. The audience should be told if there is a job description that comes with paying $10 or $20. I personally don't mind words..I have to have them with me on papers that crummple and fall on the floor...but there is something about those tiny screens and people stopping the song to scroll down ...way way worse than paper. Just inform me of whatever the guidelines are and I will decide if it is worth my time and money. I won't go to an event dominated by the blue books for example. If I go somewhere, like a camp, where I know they will be, I have to know there are going to be alternate rooms etc. for the evening sessions..what happens during the day is OK with me whatever form it takes. It's not the technology that puts me off about tablets etc..I don't care if people use kareoke screens or drive in movie screens or teleprompters..it is the size of them and people squinting to read them and stopping and starting the song. Once a song starts I want it to keep going..even though I am very guilty myself.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:26 PM

.. if it's about maintaining eye contact with an audience..

... or at least appearing to be looking in their direction...

Anyone investigated the potential capabilities of Google Glass yet...???

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:40 PM

Mary, there's no 'stopping the song to scroll down' or 'squinting to read them' if you're using the software properly!

Virtually all of my songs fit on one page, and the few that don't are set up to scroll slowly automatically. Other people I know who use a tablet have a pedal which they touch with their foot to scroll/turn pages. The font-size can be set to suit whatever the user needs to be able to read it. I've never witnessed any tablet-user stop singing/playing to scroll, or squint at the screen, and I've seen plenty of tablet-users. On the other hand, I've often had to suffer people using binders flapping around with sheets of paper, dropping them on the floor, turning two pages at once and having to stop to turn back and find their place, etc. etc.

Used properly, a tablet is the least invasive form of prompt, IMHO.

And don't forget that many people have the dots on their tablets, as well as the lyrics they accompany.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:59 PM

The tablet might well also have a camera, so you can film disruptive yobs in the audience who talk through your act. If the audience knows this, you might get more quiet and attentiveness than the norm for the venue.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 02:56 AM

Backwoodsman I think you hit the nail on the head. What is the issue with using a tablet, or bits of paper for that matter, if they are being used well? Unfortunately though they aren't always used well at our club on floor spots. You get the person who has the big 10 minute saga of scrolling through the thing to decide what he's going to play then the song is sung into the table itself rather than it just being a crutch to glance at in case of need. Then the person who stops half way through as it is scrolling too fast for him and he loses the place. We regularly have both types!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:06 AM

I completely agree, Allan.

Personally, I far prefer to perform without any kind of prompts, no matter whether at a singaround, or a 'proper' performance, I believe my ability to 'do' a song is enhanced without having the prompt-paraphernalia there, but I do have problems retaining some lyrics, so I resort to my iPad.

If I'm using it, I do exactly the same as if I was using paper prompts or working from memory - I know in advance before the evening begins what song(s) I intend to do, I put them in an Onsong Set-list, and they're cued-up ready to go. Whilst I'm playing and singing, I try to refer to the iPad as infrequently as possible, keep my head up, and make contact with the audience.

As I said elsewhere, I have my songs set up to fit one page, and in a legible (for me) font-size. A good pair of varifocals helps too! 😄

It's a tool and, like all tools, it works best in skilled hands and used properly. Just takes practice (and a little nous!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:11 AM

Why is using a tablet any different from using, say, a guitar to help you perform a song? If someone got up to sing (from memory) with a guitar and didn't really know the chord patterns, stopped at several changes to position their fingers, and spent the whole time looking intently at the fretboard, that would be really awful (and I suspect most of us have sat through something like that more often than we would have liked!).

Same with a tablet: Used by people who do not understand the technology, have inappropriate software, and have not practised, it can be cringe-worthy. Used by someone who has put in the time to get to know the potential and uses, it can be almost invisible.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: OldNicKilby
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 05:41 AM

DO NOT use a bloody tablet or any other crib. If you can't be bothered to learn the words then don't try to murder the song. I would rather the singer stumbled than sing to a tablet or ring binder.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 06:35 AM

I would rather people stopped trying to force their self-imposed rules on other people.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 09:20 AM

I'm of the opinion that if you can memorise a song and perform it without danger of forgetting the words then good on you, carry on! If you are in need of an aide memoire, and not to have one endangers your 'performance' (in singaround or concert), then why not use one?

I have just been watching a recently released DVD of a well known singer-songwriter performing in concert. He is over 79 years of age and writes rather lengthy and complex songs. I'm pretty sure he is using a stage prompt of some sort in order to ensure he has the words correct and his eyes are definitely not making contact with the audience when he is singing. They appear to be on this unobtrusive prompting device. I have no problem with this at all.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 10:50 AM

I am, frankly, amazed that some people (like OldNicKilby) can claim that my enjoyment of someone doing a grand interpretation of a song but using a tablet is, somehow, invalid and should not be allowed!

I am, right now, at a weekend festival (Bedworth, UK), for which I paid about £50 for a whole weekend's entertainment. I expect there will be one or two performers using some sort of memory aide on the stages, and certainly quite a few in the singarounds. So what? Where else am I going to get such value for money?

If you want to see a "purist" artist, then be ready to pay three or four times as much for one evening's entertainment, and leave me and the hundreds of others here to enjoy ourselves as we see fit.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 03:47 PM

I'm with you on this one Backwoodsman its attitudes like Oldnickilby's that helped to empty folk clubs years ago and why I do n't attend them anymore

or perhaps he's just trolling

Gerry

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:21 PM

{{Like}}

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 05:25 PM

I use crib sheets when I'm learning a song. But the only kind of "crib sheet" I use when singing for others is a set list of song titles taped to the side of my guitar. By the time I sing the songs before any kind of audience, I have them thoroughly memorize and don't need crib sheets.

It's not that difficult. Once committed to memory, I can turn my attention to the nuances of the song itself, without the distraction of three-ring binders, handsful of paper (not too convenient when accompanying oneself on the guitar), teleprompters, cue cards, or tablet computers.   

I'm essentially retired now, except for "hoots" (informal get-togethers and song fests with friends), but over about fifty years I did coffeehouses, concerts, television, folk festivals, benefits, a whole variety of musical events.

If I expect audiences to want to listen to me, I owe it to them to know the songs.

I don't do karaoke or similar stuff….

Don Firth

P. S. If anyone on this thread is interested, I can post some tips for memorizing songs and keeping them fresh.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 06:49 PM

I use crib sheets when I'm learning a song. But the only kind of "crib sheet" I use when singing for others is a set list of song titles taped to the side of my guitar. By the time I sing the songs before any kind of audience, I have them thoroughly memorize and don't need crib sheets.

That's a pretty poor excuse for not helping the OP with his question.

I would take a look at UX Write (doesn't work on my iPhone, unfortunately, it's can't go past iOS 6).

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 07:22 PM

ok.. whilst watching the BBC news reader with the rather full proportioned chest wearing a tight red dress..

..an idea occurred...

Alternative plan..

Discrete in ear wireless earphones, and an accomplice of stage reading you the lyrics through a radio transmitter...???

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 08:17 PM

Jack, do you have to be snarky?

I did not intend to answer the opening poster's question. The discussion has gone far beyond that now and raises the question of preparation for performing.

It looks like lots of people want to perform, but don't want to do the work necessary to prepare--such as learning the song before they sing it for an audience.

So now, of course, we fall back on the excuse that it's folk music, and that means a different (less rigorous) standard from singers.

I don't think Frank Proffitt used crib sheets. Or Leadbelly. Or Woody Guthrie. Or Margaret Barry....

Respect for the songs and respect for one's audiences demands sufficient preparation.

(Okay, here comes the lynch mob....)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM

Right, let's try the rope for size..... 😃😃

Two things.

Firstly:-

Bruce Springsteen.
He plays to 40,000 people at a time - more at one go than many of us play to in a lifetime.
His lyrics scroll up on a monitor in front of him, like the one PFR described up-thread.
I know - I've seen it.

Q: Does that mean The Boss doesn't prepare properly for his shows?
A: Judging by the quality of the music, the pinpoint timing, the interaction between Bruce, his audience and the band, and the incredible energy generated non-stop for over 3-hours by Bruce and his band, I'd say he's one of the best-prepared, best-rehearsed entertainers and musicians around.

Q: Do The Boss's audiences care that he can't remember every word of every line of every one of the 35-or-so songs in his 3-hour set?
A: Judging by their reaction to him, they don't give a damn, my dear.

If it's good enough for The Boss, it's good enough for me. Providing the performer is accustomed to working with a prompt-system, uses it only as an aide-memoire rather than reading the whole show, and is capable of referring to it, when needed, without detracting from his overall performance (can maintain contact with the audience, head up, eye-contact.....all the stuff we know about), it's a valid and perfectly acceptable tool. If it works for the performer, use it.

Secondly (and perhaps more importantly, IMHO):-

Refer to my post of 28 Nov 14. 06:35 AM

Usual disclaimers.....IMHO, IOSBTBDO etc.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

And we're going round in circles, aren't we?

To sum up - no matter what we say here, those who like having their prompting-system in front of them will continue to do so, and those who don't will continue to eschew the use of tablets, loose-leaf binders, sheets of A4, backs of cigarette-packets, whatever.

On that note, I'm leaving this particular battlefield. 😃👍

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:47 AM

Be fair, the boss is using a memory aid, like most people. The extension of the thread into this discussion refers to singing into a book, electronic aid, whatever, which rarely translates into projected entertainment. You, hopefully I and many of us can read, play AND think about the delivery. I reckon its that last bit that prevents would be decent players from progressing.

You and I hear a good friend of mine sing the same half dozen songs, every other week, eyes glued to the page. Has done for years and years and still sounds like someone playing publicly for the first time. He has to have his eyes glued to the page, including stopping to turn over. He enjoys playing but every bugger nips to the bar. If you removed his crutch, I guarantee he would improve immensley, which he would love dearly to do. He would be where he wants to be by now in the old style folk clubs.

I suppose its a bit like wearing headphones whilst listening to music and find yourself singing along. Ask anybody in the room, even if you happen to be Mario Lanza, whether your singing was nice to hear...

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:16 AM

Bugger, I'm still here 'midst the muck and bullets! 😃

Spot on Musket. That's what I guess I believe too. But who am I to condemn someone for doing what he enjoys, in a way that makes it possible for him to do it? Encouragement to drop the crutch, rather than condemnation for using it, might yield better results IMHO.

Hence my earlier comment, referred to in my post above, about people trying to force their own self-imposed rules on others.

And I agree, he's a truly nice guy - if only he could break the shackles he imposes on himself, who knows what level his performances might rise to?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:20 AM

I've had to go to church a handfull of times in the last 35 years - weddings, christenings, funerals...

..and every time when it comes to the communal singalongs we were provided with songbooks or printed crib sheets...

Soooo... if it's good enough for God, it oughta be good enough for the folk club fundamentalists...



..mind you though, back in infant & primary school morning assemblies
they might have forced us to lean and remember all the words...


Hmmmm... perhaps, those strict disciplinarian teachers from 50 years ago
are now the miserble old buggers clamouring to lay down the law in folk clubs...???

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

LOL 😃😃

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM

Maybe so. Certainly a lot of teachers and ex teachers... What about those who refer to books and minutes of committees that met before most people were born and tell you THAT is what you are part of, not what you actually are part of?

The bloke Backwoodsman and I have referred to wants to improve to be fair.

We shouldn't try to impose on those who don't wish to or have found their comfortable limit. Although similarly, we shouldn't kid ourselves that it would a shame to drain our glass and find the bar. We go out to be entertained, and encouraging is part of of self improvement. if encouragement isn't what people wish for, don't feel worried that you should be enjoying something you aren't. There are a few people I hear regularly for whom I will sit with an empty glass if they are singing next. Some on artistic merit, some as encouragement and to be delighted with their progress.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 06:24 AM

I do love the general positive ness of this thread, it is very refreshing.
BK. The advantage with GoodReader app is that you can put 6 or 7 songs from the documents (list of all your songs) onto the top of the page and then just select the one you want, so that one, then select a second one and so on with just one tap of the finger. In a singarround if you decide on a different song, it is very easy to go to your list and select that song. If you need to scroll then just a slide of the finger and you have it. Another advantage of the IPad is that your screen is illuminated and you can see easier in poor light.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:48 AM

So an "app" is an "application" is "software"??

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 11:45 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 09:43 AM

A friend of mine used her i-phone to sing from during a floor spot. I told her I found it disgusting, as is using these note book tablety things, surely it signals the death of real music!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM

I told her I found it disgusting

What a wonderful friend you must be...

Define real music please? On second thoughts, don't bother.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 10:47 AM

.. if you find that disgusting... !!!???

Oh dear.. you poor oversensitive soul.. you must seek help immediately....

Whatever you do, do not switch on the news and watch anything regarding The Ukraine or Syria...

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: BK
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

Heartfelt thanks to the Mudcatters who still uphold traditions of erudition and gentlemanly [or womanly] discourse, [and sometimes polite disagreement]. I KNEW if anybody could come through with helpful info it would be you folks. As for the Salieri's and Torquemada's, the Commissars Of Correctness, a pox upon ye.
I sing for the message, the feelings, the images that flow in my mind from good songs, which I work to convey to the listener. From years of experience, and many kind compliments, the audiences GET IT and appreciate it. I wouldn't consider doing on stage a song with which I hadn't developed a relationship. I do, however, use memory tricks, and an occasional glance at lyrics to help this old sailor keep his course straight & true. And to use as a back-up.
I had a gig the other day in which I did "Old Love." We already had lots of material and for no special reason hadn't included any Stan Rogers material on any set lists. There were a couple of "yooppers" [upper peninsula denizens] in the audience who knew the authors of Old Love. They were very complimentary and, as it turned out, were also Stan Rogers fans. They asked for some of his, so I did "Field Behind the Plow" and "Make And Break Harbor."
I KNOW the songs but hadn't done them for a while. I didn't actually use the words, but was glad they were there for a back-up glance or three, just in case.
My feeling is that if you link with your music and your audience, you are gifted by one of life's most delightful blessings. Enjoy it, and don't fret if you use an occasional memory aid. "Non Carborundum Illigitimi"

Cheers, BK

ps. I will be exploring the software solutions that were mentioned soon as I get a chance.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 12:43 PM

If you are going to use something with a large enough screen to set the device on the floor or a stand, consider getting a "clicker" to go with powerpoint or equivalent software. That way you can set the song up verse by verse and advance it as needed. Just don't be obtrusive with it.

This Summer I had the pleasure of performing in Richard III, by Shakespeare. We were expected to have our lines locked in by the end of the first month of rehearsal but the only real rule was "If you blow a line, cover it well--in iambic pentameter."

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Rumncoke
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 01:54 PM

For decades I could steal anyone's song, only wrote them down to put guitar chords to them, and left the book at home.
Gradually I found that I needed the book if I was to play guitar and then one day I could not remember the words.

I wrote down every song I could remember singing after that and a few years ago I copied them all out in a larger notebook because I couldn't read the small print I used to write.

Last week I met a neighbour of 35 years and did not recognise her.

The memory fails, the eyes fail - the brain fails.

It is not, for some of us, a failure to learn, just a failure to be immune to the passage of time.

I might get an electronic device - but before I pop my clogs, I'm hoping for something cybernetic......

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 02:22 PM

how about just busking, ad libbing

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 02:23 PM

Tomorrow morning, we drive accross London for my wife to see her knee surgeon at the Wellington Hospital in St John's Wood. Even though this is about the 10th time we have done this journey since her total knee replacement, I have an A4 sheet of paper in the car on which I have written the northerly route accross the centre of London in case I forget it - in large upper case letters!

If I was (perish the thought) to sing songs in a folk club, I would also have with me the words, similarly written.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 02:55 PM

If you want to use a tablet, do so.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: freespiritceol1
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 05:31 PM

Agree with the last comment. We have android tablets with a great free app called ,set list helper, the app is free and if you buy an add on scrolling feature,that costs a few euro. You can set it on a table and look over it to the audience and have your words scrolling away in view. Very discrete. I find it increasingly difficult to learn new songs, and find it a great help. I don't see a problem. All the best j

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 05:40 PM

Bonzo3legs Why not just use a sat-nav then you would n't have to take your eyes off the road

Gerry

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: meself
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 08:04 PM

So, just to keep the flogging of the dead horse going: are you bothered by instrument-players having sheet (or digital) music on stage?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:37 AM

You will rarely, if ever, see a classical violinist such as Itzhak Perlman or Jascha Heifitz using sheet music while giving a concert. The piano accompanist, or the orchestral musicians accompanying them will be using sheet music on music stands because they do not play this music regularly and generally have only a limited number of rehearsals. S.O.P. But the soloist who hasn't memorized his or her music is not going to get many gigs. That's just the way it is.

I have seen many full-length operas, and the singers do not wander around the stage squinting at scripts or peering at tablets. In addition to singing, they have to act as well. If they didn't have it all committed to memory, they would not get any work.

I have seen "shows" on stage and in lounges at Las Vegas. Not a crib sheet in sight.

I have seen, in concert, Pete Seeger a couple of times, Joan Baez on two occasions, Theodore Bikel, Richard Dyer-Bennet (four times), Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger, The Weavers, Peter, Paul, and Mary, the Gateway Singers, and the rest of the pantheon of singers of folk songs and I have never seen any of them use three-ring binders or crib sheets on stage.

They engage directly with the audiences they sing to.

Sorry about that, but that's the way it's done. I don't make the rules....

The audiences do.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:31 AM

Discreet (adj) - Intentionally unobtrusive
Discrete (adj) - Individually separate and distinct
Source: Oxforddictionaries.com

Discreet and discrete do NOT mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:29 AM

"They engage directly with the audiences they sing to."
Right on, with this - I cannot recall a singer who has been successful in interpreting a song from the printed page - this, as poetry reading, is a skill in itself requiring much practice!!
It is, in my opinion, what makes folk song and the folk scene unique.
The folk scene has been bedeviled by 'amateurism' in the form of a 'near enough for folk song' approach which manifests itself in singing that falls below an acceptable standard, out-of-tune accompaniment and by singers not knowing their songs well enough to sing them without having to read them.
I don't find it easy to learn songs; I never really have, but having reached a 'certain age', the process has become more difficult, so I have been forced to limit myself to the number of new songs I take on if I am going to perform them in public.
When I see younger singers reading songs in public I have to assume that they haven't put in the work in order not to have to do this, so why sing if you can't be bothered or don't have time.
If you are genuinely unable to remember songs, perhaps singing in public is not for you (singing among intimate friends who are prepared to accept your problem is a different matter).
When thse arguments come up I'm always reminded of the Monty Python sketches of the one-legged actor applying for the role of Tarzan and the man with double vision wishing to lead the expedition to scale the 'twin peaks of Mount Everest'
Learning songs to sing in public takes work, some of us have to work harder than others to do so - as far as I am concerned, the songs I want to sing are worth it, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
Most of us are amateurs - 'amateurism' is something else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:42 AM

"....using tablet on stage.."

NOT for the lead singer(s)!!!..I know it's handy, and the back support musicians, maybe....but I prefer NOT to see them, OR notebooks..NOR do I use any of them.
That being said, if someone wants to use them, go ahead....but it smacks of less preparation, by the show and artists.

GfS

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:08 AM

Ever seen Springsteen live? Think he's 'unprepared' or that his show displays 'amateurism'?

He plays a three-hour, non-stop set to five-figure audiences (40,000 when I saw him at the Ricoh, Coventry last year) - more at one go than many of us will play to in a lifetime - he has the audience in the palm of his hand. He's a staggeringly good, jaw-droppingly exciting performer.

Springsteen, in common with virtually all of the current top-line performers, uses a stage - floor monitor to display his sets and lyrics, and 40,000 highly-delighted and deliriously satisfied punters at Coventry didn't give a Flyin' F**k.

If it's good enough for The Boss, and good enough for the vast numbers of people he plays to, it'll do for me. If Don or Jim and a few other old farts don't like it, frankly I don't give a damn, my dear.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:20 AM

"Sorry about that, but that's the way it's done. I don't make the rules..."

Exactly, Don! These threads always seem to put the crib sheet advocates on the defensive and they start throwing wild accusations around about having 'rules' imposed on them. But it's not about rules, it's about taste and standards of performance. In addition, experience suggests that crib sheet users tend not to progress beyond the 'beginner' stage. Personally, I find that my patience begins to wear thin when I find myself listening to a singer whose performances are no more bearable, or worth listening to, than they were 5 or 6 years ago!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:23 AM

"Ever seen Springsteen live?"
Not really - doubt if I could afford a ticket, even if I wanted one (which I don't), but it's beside the point anyway.
Springsteen is a highly professional singer with highly developed skilled, which he (presumably) has worked on to acquire - very few people are in that position so we have to work at it.
What is being put forward here is an argument for not working at or being unable to sing songs without having to read it (wonder if the people putting up these arguments would put up the same arguments for dyslexics or illiterates being allowed to get up and sing gibberish in public because they are unable to read??)
If being "an old fart" means we apply standards to the songs we love and believe they are worth working at, long live old fartism!!
Not being prepared to put in the work is indicative on a contempt for the songs and the audiences as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:38 AM

As I said, the boss uses prompts, he doesn't address his prompts. Neither do you nor many others. I look down at the piece of paper stuck to the guitar occasionally if I have one, but like most of us, have a very good idea of the next line anyway so can concentrate on delivery.

The use of books, of which tablets are a type anyway has led to three things in my opinion, and it is merely my opinion;

1. It has allowed singers to use a wider repetoire than memory allows. This is useful if the singer can project a song regardless and still play to the audience, not the book.

2. It has allowed people to become involved where hitherto they were concerned they would blank if they got up on the "stage" that folk clubs in general used to employ. I know many people who used to just come to listen who, now singarounds are more popular feel confident to join in.

3. All the bad points made by others tend to apply, sadly. Many people do sing into their book and become engrossed with what they are staring at, and may not be aware that the sound others are hearing ain't what they hear. If I learn, say, a Vin Garbutt song, then whilst I am reading the lyrics on the page, my brain hears Vin. Once the book is no longer there, I hear my voice. Your audience hears your voice anyway.

4. (My perogative.). Many of those content to mumble and read without attempt to improve may well be happy in their skin, but it just means I drink more as I nip to the bar more. They encourage heavy drinking and that is socially reprehensible!

Anyway, the thread is about tablets on stage. I haven't used my latest toy yet but I have an interface to control my Mackie mixer and a number of effects via my ipad. I'm going to play with it later. I am playing at a fund raising concert next month where I get to take my full pa so can't wait to have a play.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 06:57 AM

Yep, I don't disagree with anything you say, Musket, and I think it's pretty much what I've said all the way through this thread - electronic prompts or ring-binders or paper stuck to guitars or working totally from memory, all have their place. But there's still a need to perform, and the readers need to practice the art of performing even if they feel bound to their crutches.

Whatever Sunny Jim says is his way, and therefore the Only True Path, I refuse to talk about people doing what they enjoy in the way they can as being 'contemptuous' or 'disrespectful'.

As I've said on here before, the most contemptuous or disrespectful thing that can be done to a song is not to sing it at all. Hopefully, the Old Farts can agree to that)😎

I'm done. Got a couple of songs to learn.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 07:58 AM

"Whatever Sunny Jim says is his way, and therefore the Only True Path,"
Got a bit tired of this type of unqualified and insulting dismissal of ideas people don't agree with - you think what I say, show I'm wrong with argument, not insult.
I spent forty-odd years of my life recording "old farts" who gave us us hundreds of songs without once having to read the words (the repertoires of some of them stretched int the dozens, even hundreds)   
At present we are recording a 94 year-old-fart who has given us a couple of dozen songs so far, long ballads included, some of which he hasn't sung for over half a century - I doubt if his failing eyesight would enable him to read a spring binder or a tablet, should he need to; so far, he hasn't had to.
"Old fart" - With a little refreshment work I can remember the words of over 300 songs without having to resort to tablets or spring-binders - you apparently can't - come back with your "old farts" when you can and don't inflict your inabilities and laziness on audiences who turn up to expect to find singers who know what they are singing without having to refer to a script - do your practicing at home, not on stage.   
When I was a kid I used to go off to the local Saturday matinee to see flash Gordon and The Three Stooges - the show occasionally included a cartoon illustrated song with words running underneath and a little ball bouncing on them so we could all sing along - I grew out of things like that when I was about ten - you apparently haven't got to that stage yet.
It is most certainly not "disrespectful" not to sing the songs - not being prepared to put in the time and effort into singing the properly and getting up in front of an audience and singing them anyway - that's what I call disrespect - if you can't be arsed, don't bother and leave them to those who are willing to put in the work - the songs really are worth more than being read in public.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:06 AM

94 eh? Does the top of his trousers muffle his voice?

Here Jim, you dismiss many songs, especially those you call pop yet you say some songs, what you call folk deserve respect. What if an old bloke crooning out of tune isn't your cup of tea but Thin Lizzy doing Whiskey in the Jar is?

This is about using technology on stage. If you have anything to offer on that Jim, let's hear it. if it isn't within your experience, stick to telling us what MacColl said we should be doing.. Preferably on threads set up for that purpose.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:14 AM

Oh shit. Did I just post that?

Sound the air raid siren...

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:37 AM

"What if an old bloke crooning out of tune isn't your cup of tea but Thin Lizzy doing Whiskey in the Jar is?"
Rather arrogant assumption if you haven't actually heard those singers, doncha think?
The rest is either a different argument or and attempt to wiggle out of the unanswerable - if you can't, please don't tell me where I can post - you've apparently caught the infection from somebody else we both know
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:41 AM

Thinking about it isn't it more than a little 'one rule for one' telling me that discussing the use of printed texts is 'off topic' yet intoducing 'Thin Lizzie' as folk - gi' us a break Jimmy, can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:15 AM

Jim, the OP didn't ask for permission - mine, yours or anyone else's - to use his tablet, and he didn't ask if it was viwed as acceptable. He asked for advice on the best ways to maximise the benefits he perceives it would provide him. I'd guess his decision is already made as to whether or not to use his tablet, so what point is there in rabbiting on about 'respect' or 'contempt'?

Would you walk up to a mediocre singer in a music venue and say, "I'm a better performer than you"? I doubt you would, but pontificating on here to the OP (and others) about how you learn your songs, how you would never lower yourself to using a prompt, how using a prompt is disrespectful, contemptuous etc., is the same as doing precisely that.

You might think it's OK to put people down like that, but some people, me included, don't. It's rude, and it's unnecessary.

If you put people down, telling them they're disrespectful and contemptuous, because they don't perform the way you think they should, don't be surprised or offended when someone calls you out over it.

Now, back to learning songs...........

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:19 AM

Ah Musket, try this site for some of the fine old Irish singers. No paper or tablets here I'll be bound.

ITMA
Who could forget The cow that went astray, the family Ointment song and that traditional classic, Dark as a Dungeon.
John

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:45 AM

"When thse arguments come up I'm always reminded of the Monty Python sketches of the one-legged actor applying for the role of Tarzan . . ."

I think you mean Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:09 AM

"I'd guess his decision is already made as to whether or not to use his tablet, so what point is there in rabbiting on about 'respect' or 'contempt'?"
"Would you walk up to a mediocre singer in a music venue and say"
Of course I wouldn't - I'm not a particularly good performer anyway, but even if I were, I wouldn't - why should you suggest I would?
If you believe my suggesting that a singer learn his or her songs sufficiently to not have to read them in front of an audience is equivalent to suggesting that I am a better singer, I'm afraid we're attempting to communicate in different languages
If he were to try to sing with a sock in his mouth, I might venture to suggest he take it out, but nothing beyond that
Us old farts come from a time when singers were able to get up and sing songs without paper or electronic props - doesn't say a great deal for today's performers if that is no longer the case
Are you suggesting I shouldn't express my views at a practice I believe detrimental to the music I'm involved in?
"I think you mean Peter Cook and Dudley Moore."
I believe you're correct - thanks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: meself
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:44 AM

When I was 'coming up', every singer that I admired and tried to emulate sang from memory or improvised if memory failed. Similarly, every instrumentalist I admired and tried to emulate played from memory (except for the occasional jazz musician glancing at a chart), improvising if memory failed.

Just an observation; you are free of course to do anything you want, as long as it's legal.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:05 AM

Jim, for the love of whomever or whatever it is you worship, you're doing your usual nonsense of distorting anything that's said to you in a vain attempt to 'win'. As you very well know (and if you don't, you're a plank, but I don't believe you are a plank - I believe you're a pathological word-twister who will stop at nothing in order to try to force your opinions on others.

I didn't 'suggest you would'......I used that as a means of demonstrating how your constant bleating of the "I learn my songs", and "I would never disrespect a song..." dogmatic stuff contains an inference that you're somehow 'better' than someone who uses a prompt-device.

Now for once, give it a bloody rest. As is ever the case when you get involved, you're sounding like a cracked record and it's losing its charm. Why can't those who are interested in the use of technology in the arts have a discussion about it without Old Farts jumping in with 'advice' that's irrelevant to the topic and outside the scope of what the OP asked? If you have some technical expertise in the field of technology, let's hear it. But if you're just being a miserable old curmudgeon who resents change, why not keep out of it? You'd be a lot happier, and so would some of the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:10 AM

"Bonzo3legs Why not just use a sat-nav then you would n't have to take your eyes off the road"

Because a sat-nav will not provide up to date changes in traffic flow, and more importantly which lane to use, which believe me is very important through central London!!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:33 AM

"." dogmatic stuff contains an inference that you're somehow 'better' than someone who uses a prompt-device. "
Which is repeating what you've just denied.
I'm getting a little pissed off at having people who can and do manage without a tablet or ring binder being called insulting (not to mention ageist names by somebody who can't - or won't.
I've maid my points about using scripts (of any form) in front of an audience, so have others - answer those points rather than descending into personal abuse.
And don't tell me where I should post or what I should say - talk about folk police.... sheesh!!! (though I have no doubt that the phrase comes easily enough to your own fingertips)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:51 AM

"Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

Performing from a score is a specific skill, if you have acquired it then it doesn't detract from your performance. The problem is the people who:
1. Use the score as an alternative to practice
2. Perform to their notebook rather than to the audience.
Both faults which I haven't seen at classical music concerts but have at folk clubs."
I thought this was a very good post

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:57 AM

Bonzo3legs I could reply to your comment as I was a car delivery driver(who went into Central London) but I think this thread is just going round in circles and not answering the original posters request for help so I'm not going to send it off on another tangent

Best Wishes

Gerry

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:04 PM

Jim, you know nothing about me, whether I can play, or sing without a tablet, or a ring-binder, or a piece of paper stuck on my guitar, or even sing at all, so knock that crap off.

I choose to have an aide-memoire at sing-arounds which I have to refer to occasionally, as I find my memory doesn't work so well nowadays, and I choose to use a tablet for that purpose - my prerogative, fuck all to do with you. If I'm 'appearing' (rarely nowadays) I do so without a safety net (but with my set list on my tablet instead of a shitty scrap of paper). Again, my business, not yours.

I've stated here on this thread several times that I believe memorisation is best, but that if memory is a problem and a singer needs a reminder, he or she should practice using it in a way that is as unaobtrusive as possible. I'd far rather songs are sung with hard-copy lyrics than not be sung at all. My view, equally as valid as yours.

And when you stop your constant spoiling tactics of distorting what others say, then you'll be in a position to criticise others. As it is, you're not.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:30 PM

"Jim, you know nothing about me"
And I don't attempt to criticise you =-my points have all been comments on the use of printed or electronic scripts in front of an audience, nothing more - no crap to knock off.
You, on the other hand have chosen to prevent my making my points and suggesting that mine and other's age ("old farts") prohibit us from commenting on the practice.
Your personal idiosyncrasies and perversions are, as you say, your own business; if you don't want them commented on, don't bring them to a public forum (whatever they may be).
We're all prone to lapses of memory and forgetting words - from this and other threads and from personal observation, this practice has become both common and acceptable - I find the practice both disrespectful to audiences and to the song tradition - I also believe that, in many cases, it is unnecessary.
Now, where id I put my Philosan!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:44 PM

The tuba player in our klezmer group is also the guy who does most of the transcribing (from barely listenable old archive recordings on 78s and cylinders). So he turns up every meeting with a couple of new pieces, or new-since-1920-or-thereabouts. The rest of us get them on paper, he's taken to using a tablet. His software isn't that great for it, since the scores it generates have way too much whitespace and staffs that are far too small. But he can read it. If he couldn't, we'd be out of a bass line, because nobody could memorize stuff that fast.

Like a lot of exotic-foreign-stuff groups, it's never very clear whether we're holding a session or a rehearsal, but we always welcome an audience. We're good enough that we can combine sightreading, rehearsed score reading, memory playing and just plain busking it, while making it fun to listen to. The audience won't know which is going on. (I might have a page of score in front of me, but is it for the piece we're currently doing, one we did half an hour ago, or one we might do later in the evening? You won't have any way of telling).

Do I care what somebody who can't imagine this sort of event might think? Guess.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:22 PM

There you go, twisting words again, Jim - you really can't help yourself can you?

I enjoy discussion, but there's no pleasure in arguing for the sake of it with someone who is prepared to stoop to such tactics in order to push his dogma.

Just once, Jim, try listening to and answering the points others make, instead of putting words in their mouths, and continually repeating the dogma. Just once. Until you learn to do that, I've nothing else to say to you.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:32 PM

"Just once, Jim, try listening to and answering the points others make, "
Just said that - try your own advice - ditto to the last bit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:55 PM

Thank fuck for that.

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:10 PM

I've heard two folk bands (playing traditional dance music) recently. I heard them play, on successive days, on opposite sides of the country. Members of one band played from a score while the other lot played from memory. I found the first band to be a bit dull and mechanical but the second band had real 'soul' (for want of a better word) and their playing was exciting and fun to listen to. The sad thing is that I know members of both bands and also know that they have similar levels of technical competence and ability.

With singers it's a bit different. In my experience, singers who rely on a cribsheet (paper or digital) are far too often crap - and never get any better. On the other hand, singers who sing from memory can (obviously) be crap - but often they improve with time, mainly, I assume, because they're putting the work in.

Finally, let's be brutally honest, I DO NOT want to spend my evenings listening to souless crap!

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:43 PM

The usual determiner of whether a dance music band uses sheet music is how large their repertoire is. No band playing for SCD could memorize everything they'll be asked to do.

Something else that drives the need for a written score is increasingly complicated arrangements. It's a trend you can't do much about, but a band that needs to stand out may well push the limits of what they can remember in chordings and bass lines, even for standard ceilidh band material which works for dancing in much simpler styles. And once they've got one set fixed in their heads it'll be time to move on to another one.


I DO NOT want to spend my evenings listening to souless crap!

And that's what you're dismissing the OP as? How the fuck would you know?

Subject: RE: Tech: using tablet on stage
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:42 PM

In the latter days of when our band was most active,
rehearsing together was impractical due to all living spread over the country.
We had a few core members, augmented by a floating ever changing lineup of mates
and new folks of the singer's acquaintance some of us might never have even met before standing on stage together....

Gigging was on the basis of last minute bookings, and an email from the singer saying
" this is when & where we are playing, who can turn up ? these are the songs I intend doing - print them off
and try to learn them "...

Then maybe a quick run through at sound check [if we had that luxury] of the old songs most of us knew,
and new ones we'd never played together before.

So yes printed sheets of the chords layed out on a chair or whatever right by our amps were absolutely essential.

The singer also had a 'Chuck Berry' style habit of slowing and speeding tempos
and improvising changes to structure during songs to play to the mood of the audience,
with out any warning to the rest of us.
So we needed to keep on our toes and try to anticipate what he might do next.

Luckily our drummer was damn good at keeping a solid beat,
and our core of the band had the experience playing together on and off since we were 15,
so we could usually cover for lack of rehearsal and the unexpected fairly well.