Folk Clubs and attracting younger people

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 06:49 PM

I am far less prescriptive about what constitutes a "proper" folk club than a lot of people here but I would draw the line at including karaoke.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 07:13 PM

But they don't call it a folk club. They call it karaoke night.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 07:26 PM

I'd imagine that he is rightly and fairly fed up with Mudcat, Jack, for the huge number of occasions that his name is slagged off and dragged through the mud of Mudcat, often very unfairly.

More unfairly than his comment about you, me and everybody else here in that review? I don't think so.


People seem to object to his taking a broad view of folk, traditional and roots music but the quality of design and writing is far superior to anything else in this field

I would agree about the writing - the design is nothing special (or wasn't when I last saw a copy). But I detest the narrowness of his perspective - the only stuff he cares about is what you can buy as a commodity.


Think of the all the outstanding talents in the folk and traditional scene in the UK and then check here to see if they have been covered in fRoots. The chances are that they will have been.

I just checked Jimmy McHugh, probably the most influential musician ever in the Irish music scene in Scotland, but who never made any recordings. Not a mention. If you're not a product (and hence a source of advertising revenue) you don't count for Froots.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:52 AM

I've not subscribed to folk magazines for a few years now although I bought A "Living Tradition" yesterday as there was a particular article I wished to read.

I find that I can keep myself up to date online these days and even read much of the magazine contents up there.

As an example of what is considered good "product" in Froots, here's a link to their charts for this week...

http://www.frootsmag.com/content/issue/charts/

There are one or two interesting things there but the bulk of it has nothing much to do with folk or traditional music as I know it or even "world music". Some of the albums are several years old too.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 04:16 AM

"So what's so misfortunate about Weston Super Mare".
weston super mud, a great place for mud music and mud roots music no doubt.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 04:40 AM

Maybe the phrase should be "They don't call it a singers night. They call it Karaoke". Singers night is generally a misnomer as most people at most singers nights I have been to also play an instrument. Most often the guitar. At a Karaoke night the performers are just singers! OK, they are accompanied by an electronic soundtrack but they are still purely singers rather than singer/instrumentalists and at least they are not usually intent on a 10 minute intro to a five minute song or giving the audience the benefit of their innermost feelings. I have never done Karaoke but I find it pretty absurd and elitist the way that those who do are sneered at by the 'real' singers :-(

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 05:48 AM

It strikes me that Mudcat can get pretty bonkers at times, which perhaps is part of its charm although it can get frustrating at times.

More to the point, the venue Ian describes in his fRoots editorial sounds much like many of the folk clubs I used to attend - far more than the 'sit in rows and shut up' type.

I'm not sure I understand his comment "Not a gig where as a performer you feel duty bound to entertain". I sure Topette were very conscious of their obligation to entertain, but are skilled enough to do this in a relaxed and informal way which helped to create the ambience he enthuses about.

The question is why these venues no longer exist. In my limited experience the clubs seem to have evolved into singarounds of variable quality or mini-concerts which don't involve the audience, and where you are made to sit in rows and shut up. Neither greatly appeal to me.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 07:05 AM

"I found myself wondering why this is so unusual, in this country anyway, and wishing that there were lots more of these. Not a 'session' where the players play for themselves and ignore civilians. Not a folk club where you have to sit in rows and people 'Shhhh' if you dare talk. Not a ceilidh where you're often made to feel like an outcast if you don't want to dance but just enjoy the music. Not a gig where as a performer you feel duty bound to entertain."
lets deal with the three points, one, ceildhs, this is complete nonsenseat most ceilidhs you can enjoy the music without dancing, you can sit or stand at the bar listen to the music without danicning and without being made to fell an outcast .
2, Sessions, you can attend sessions and enjoy the music without being ignored people are busy playing music,the non musicians are sitting listening,no audience member goes to a session to ask the musicians about their lives they go there to hear music being played with commitment, so another inaccurate statment from Anderson.
3. Folk clubs, it is very rare fror people to sshh other audience members because most folk club audiences know the folk club protocol , another inaccurate staement from Anderson, in fact a triple whammy of codswallop

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 09:00 AM

I have been to plenty of ceilidhs where non-dancers were harried and bullied into making up a set, while the other dancers had to wait in their already formed sets until enough unwilling participants were dragged onto the floor to make up the required number - and sometimes too many would eventually volunteer so that yet another incomplete set formed, and the painful process had to be gone through yet again.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 09:27 AM

I can't think of a single regular ceilidh within reach of me where you can listen to the music in the bar. All the venues have separate catering areas with at least one set of doors between them and the hall.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 09:46 AM

Once again, Jack, I find that I cannot agree with comments that you make about fRoots so without getting into a slanging match with you which I won't do, could I make some points about your last post?
You seem to find his description of the Mudcat community insulting when you write:-

More unfairly than his comment about you, me and everybody else here in that review? I don't think so.
I must ask you not to include me in the list of those who feel that they are being treated unfairly by that review and I think that you ought to let others in the Mudcat community speak for themselves, Some at least seem to recognise Ian's description. Howard Jones just above talks about clubs where "you are made to sit in rows and shut up." Overall, I would say that there are many clubs that bear a resemblance to this.

I would agree about the writing….
Good. A point of agreement.

…..the design is nothing special…..
Well, yes; again, I'd agree, but let's compare it with its direct competitor Songlines. Flashy garish and eye-catching design but the standard of writing is pretty abysmal. Short pieces that read like puffs written by a publicist which seem to centre on the meeting between writer and artist with little analysis of the music.

…… (or wasn't when I last saw a copy)……
Well, I'm afraid that you are giving yourself away here, Jack. I did suspect this with your comments in a previous post about Madagascar. How often and how regularly do you read fRoots carefully, Jack? Could it be that you are expressing opinions on something that you don't know well (says a man that has all 380 copies stored in boxes on shelves by his computer and finds then a hugely useful reference source.)

But I detest the narrowness of his perspective - the only stuff he cares about is what you can buy as a commodity…… I just checked Jimmy McHugh, probably the most influential musician ever in the Irish music scene in Scotland, but who never made any recordings. Not a mention. If you're not a product (and hence a source of advertising revenue) you don't count for Froots.
By amazing co-incidence the Jan/Feb 2015 issue just dropped through the letter box as I am typing this, so let's test the validity of these statements with reference to what this new issue contains -
•        Cover article is on the 40th anniversary of a wonderful dance band, The Old Swan Band – This is supported by a 1/2 page advert for all recent Wildgoose releases but this is not special to this issue. Doug Bailey feels the need to advertise his releases on a regular basis.
•         Centenary of the birth of Bob Copper – no supporting advert.
•        Ibibo Sound System from Nigeria – no supporting advert.
•        Sam Sweeney & Andy Cutting's new outfit Leverett – no supporting advert.
•        Pete Coe & Alice Jones – no supporting advert.
•        Profile on folk/rock producer Sandy Roberton – no supporting advert.
•        Smaller features on Norwegian festival, new librarian at Cecil Sharp House, traditional band from Co. Clare, Joe Boyd on Copyright – you've guessed it - no supporting adverts.
•        And finally the current cover on a new South London traditional folk band, Stick The Wheel, who are excellent and if the world is fair should make a big name for themselves. They haven't even got and album out to advertise.
fRoots is not perfect. Ask Ian Anderson how quick I am to bend his ear if there is something I don't like or if there is a mistake or if I feel standards are falling, but overall I feel that over 35 years the man has produced an amazing variety of high quality articles and photo features and has never once missed a deadline. We should be falling over ourselves in praise of him for what he has achieved.
Let me mention also, Jack, how articles in fRoots come about; I have written quite a lot for them so I should know. The editor is not in a position to commission articles. He has to wait until his writers contact him and give a yea or nay to their suggestions. In my case he rarely says no and if he does, it is always for a good reason. So if there is nothing about Jimmy McHugh (lovely musician, in my opinion, though its years since I heard him) it's because no-one has suggested the name to him. Tell you what, Jack, contact Ian and say that you would like to write something on Jimmy McHugh. That's what I do when I hear someone that I think is worth hearing more about.
….. and I'm still confused about Islington.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 11:58 AM

"We should be falling over ourselves in praise of him for what he has achieved."

Vic, you still don't understand the basic ethos of Mudcat. My making a living from folk music Anderson must be the spawn of the Devil!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:37 PM

Iplay in folk clubs fairly regularly, my experience is that is rare for people to be made to shut up ,most people that go enjoy listening to the performer are respectful of the music and do not need to be told to shut up.
Vic, how many times have you told people to sssh in your folk club over the last 40 years, please answerr , if you do not I will assume you have never had to.
most of the ceilidhs i have been to, have been in the proximity of a bar., however i live in ireland, the polace where ceilidhs originate, ceili or ceildh is a gaelic word

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 01:49 PM

I too am unsure why the editor of Froots feels the need to bash bonkers old Mudcat. As a marginally 'younger' person (or at least I was when I first arrived here...) I've enjoyed this place pretty much FOR it's bonkersness and tended to avoid the rather more sterile atmosphere of Froots. If I wanted to know serious stuff about folk music without the aggro, I'd probably head over to a more academic forum, such as the Tradsong forum that led me here in the first place.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:43 PM

CS, I think I can give you the answer to that, he wants to publicise his site.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:49 PM

.. one more vote for Bedlam and gawping at the bonkers folk for perverse entertainment value...✔😏

... that Ian bloke needs to shake some of that metropolitan sophisticate snootiness off
and come back here from time to time for a good robust earthy laugh
and a bit of mudddy rough and tumble amongst the gibbering foaming at the mouth hideous wretches...😜

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:55 PM

...that Ian bloke needs to shake some of that metropolitan sophisticate snootiness off

Funnily enough, that's more or less what he said of himself when he moved back to Brissle (as he seems to insist on calling it) about four years ago.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 03:11 PM

.. then he should definitely nip back to Weston for a few ciders in "The Workies" on a weekend..

That'd give him a back to his roots reality check sense of a proper job informal community focused venue...

They get top agency acts too.. the 'Billy Fury' was at least as the good
as the one you'd pay 20 quid to see at the posh Playhouse...

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 06:14 AM

I have always found good performers with good technique will always win over an audiences. The problem is, you have to sit through a lot of mediocre rubbish before you get to one, particularly in the Folk world.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:06 AM

Talking of fRoots as we have been, here is the BIFF cartoon from the new edition I received yesterday. For some reason, the photo used in the last panel looks very familiar....

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:39 AM

For anyone who didn't follow another GUEST's link "This may be of interest," here's its description of this forum:

... the Folkistanis on that bonkers internet message board called Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 12:34 PM

I can't say I'm worried about Ian Anderson's opinion of Mudcat but I'm intrigued by -
Not a 'session' where the players play for themselves and ignore civilians. Not a folk club where you have to sit in rows and people 'Shhhh' if you dare talk. Not a ceilidh where you're often made to feel like an outcast if you don't want to dance but just enjoy the music.

Give him his due, he's prepared to speak his mind without worrying about how many potential subscribers he alienates.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST,Richard Dalton
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 04:00 PM

I agree.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 09:31 PM

It's not impossible to attract younger people to a session with traditional folk songs, just very difficult. A unique venue in the New York City area has been functioning for more than 5 years and the average age is below 30, with 30-40 people attending each monthly session. It's called the Exceedingly Good Song Night and is located in the back room of an East Village cafe, and is hosted by Ken Schatz. I get to attend maybe once a year but I'm always amazed with the energy generated in these sessions. Here's a link to their Facebook page: click here for a good time!

I'm hoping to be there again on Sunday, January 4, 2015.

Cheerily,
Charlie Ipcar

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 03:33 PM

On 13 Dec 14 - 07:06 AM I wrote:-
"Talking of fRoots as we have been, here is the BIFF cartoon from the new edition I received yesterday. For some reason, the photo used in the last panel looks very familiar...."

If you click on that link. you will get a message from Facebook saying-
Sorry, something went wrong.
We're working on it and we'll get it fixed as soon as we can.

No, Facebook, this is less than the truth. You have seen fit to block the sharing of this cartoon for some reason. But as with most things on the internet, it it possible to get around such things, as you can see by clicking here.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 06:16 PM

Thank you Vic.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 07:02 PM

i suppose Froots have got their bit of the action - hobnobbing with the small time superstars of the folkworld. and we've got ours. we're the peasantry, we know our place.

theres no need for resentment or unpleasantness between us. folk music has a role for us both.

as Don Corleone says to Solozzo - as my business interests don't conflict with yours.....

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 04:32 AM

'Big Al' said:
"Froots have got their bit of the action - hobnobbing with the small time superstars of the folkworld. and we've got ours. we're the peasantry, we know our place."

Speak for yourself, but don't include the whole of Mudcat - I have seen posts on here from people I regard as more than "small time" stars.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 05:30 AM

well the music industry regards folk music as very small time. i was with a medium sized record company for some time and it was an eye opener to me. i'd spent a lot of time on the folkscene.... i thought the sun shone out of my heroes bums. it was a shock to find people with so little regard for them.

small time was not meant as disparaging - just descriptive.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 05:33 AM

Al is correct, most of the population have never heard of the so called big names of the folk world, that is not offensive but factual

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs and attracting younger people
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:12 PM

The same thing can probably be said for the so-called big names of the world of barbershop quartet singing, or polo, or orchid cultivation, or medieval jousting, or perhaps hundreds of other activities, though each of them may be central to the lives of some people.