Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:35 AM

Ken is in good health! we were speaking to him at Shrewsbury festival. He is planning to record again soon. I have listened to both Ken's and Frankie's versions of this lovely song, and find them equally well sung(not keen on the Steeleye Span version)

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM

He did say he was going to record again last year, but I believe he has had some health problems! Not sure.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 09:03 AM

I have always loved this song. I am very fond of the Frankie Armstrong version, she sings it with great meaning and gusto. I had not heard of Ken Wilson until reading this thread. Having listened to his version, I did like it but found it not quite as good, in my opinion , as Armstrongs. Does anyone have an opinion on the Steeley Span version. I do enjoy these threads , I learn a great deal. But I do wish that those who wish to be in a constant state of argument, would calm down and just learn from those who post varying opinions.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 AM

Has Ken recorded anymore 'solo' material yet? His 'Not Before Time' c.d. is excellent. A fine singer.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 08:07 AM

"So what - it was not common for most town dwellers to sing folk songs, but we sing them and we use whatever tachniqes we can muster to enable us to get to grips with them."
proof please, or do you mean that Cecil Sharp was more concerned with collecting rural folk songs.
what proof is there that town dwellers did not sing folk songs, depends on how you define folk songs? do you not include music hall songs do you not include broadsheets, are you seriously trying to tell me that folk broadsheets were not sung in towns, another of your inaccuracies, are you telling me that town dwellers did not sing sam hall, songs about nelson, the red barn murder etc,
for your information
Broadsides broad sheets were one of the most common forms of printed material between the sixteenth and nineteenth centuries, particularly in Britain, Ireland and North America and are often associated with one of the most important forms of traditional music from these countries, the ballad.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 07:56 AM

i have not attempted to stop anyone, i have criticised your phrasing and lack of manners.
your arguments are unconvincing, I know all about singers imitating instrumental ornamentation from the same tradtion , that has no relevance.
you appear to be muddying the waters in your usual manner. uk tradtional singers sang naturally, Bert attempted to introduce a harder voice sound that had no connection with uk tradtional singing, it was not an evolutionary development of an existing uk style, it was a fad of Berts, if he or anyone else tried to pretend otherwise it was dishonest and yet another attempt to shape and manipulate the uk revival in a certain direction, none of which had anything to do stylistically with traditional uk singers or uk tradtional singning style.
It seems to have been typical of a small group of influential people Lloyd, MacColl,Armstrong and acolytes[Jim Carroll possibly?]
another way Ewan tried to shape the revival was his singing policy at the singers club[ which admittedly had certain benefits as well as certain bad points].
Quite frankly, Bert and his gyrating torso with his fixed smile, was something that I found visually interfered with his performance.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 06:38 PM

"It was not common for uk traditional singers to use this technique,"
So what - it was not common for most town dwellers to sing folk songs, but we sing them and we use whatever tachniqes we can muster to enable us to get to grips with them.
Very few traditional singers sang ballads, lyrical songs, comic songs, shanties, broadsides, songs they learned from their parents and songs from from books - not many learned them from records - certainly none of them learned them from the internet - most singers do now - nothing wrong wit that - or is there.
Traditional singers used all kinds of gimmicks to sing their songs - pipe imitations were fairly common in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland (ceanntearacht), or they sang for dancing (Puirt à beul).
One of the most entertaining songs I have ever heard is by an Irish singer who imitates bagpipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, concertina... and a couple ore during the course of one song.
Go further afield and you find Mongolian singers singing through their throats and noses at the same time or Irtubu Pygmies imitating bees so they can collect honey without being stung, or Peruvian monks imitating the gods they believe in - folk singing is really very adventurous and exciting when you examine it closely
Bert Lloyd did not "contrive" to be contrived - he did it for the reasons I have stated - he used a traditional technique to produce a hard tone - with as much respect as I can muster, I pointed this out to you some time ago, up to which point you were totally unaware of it, but if you have managed to gather more information on it since, I would be fascinated to hear it.
"I think your attempted analysis of Kens singing is not something i agree with."
Fine - I promise I won't attempt to stop you from expressing this opinion - how about you showing the same courtesy, after all, this is what these forums are for?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 06:12 PM

It was not common for uk tradtional singers to use this technique,Did you ever see harry cox, do it of course not   it was a fashion or a fad brought into the uk revival by Bert Lloyd, and in my opinion makes him sound contrived, which is exactly what it was contrived.
you may prefer it I do not, further more since YOU brought up this notion of preference, I prefer hazel sarjeant and ken wilsons version TO FRANKIE ARMSTRONGS and I think your attempted analysis of Kens singing is not something i agree with.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 04:26 PM

"as was the fad for singing with a smile on the face"
Not a "fad" - it was a technique adapted by Bert Lloyd to produce a hard tone, which he found extremely difficult - as far as I know, Bert was the only singer to use it regularly in public, though I am aware that some singers used it while working privately on tones.
Bert claimed he picked up the technique from recording Eastern European singer - it was quite common for some singers from other cultures to use such techniques (singing with the hand over the ear being another centuries, probably millennia-old one).
Personally, while I find Ken Wilson's singing pleasant enough, for me, his somewhat thrusting approach which produces a gap after each line leads to a lack of flow, which I feel Frankie gives it.
Far from it being "hard", certainly compared to many of her songs, I find Frankie's lyrical approach produces the tenderness that the song needs.
Horses for courses, I suppose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 02:10 PM

Ken is a personal friend,I first met him in the mid seventies, he is a fine singer, as are all The Wilsons, and his version of lovely on the water is excellent.
His singing is strongly influenced by traditional singers and is not influenced by any of the fads and fashions that were popular in the seventies and eighties in the uk folk revival which in my opinion are very rare among uk male traditional singers.
According to wikipedia, Killen advised Armstrong to sing with a harder voice, I am not sure what was the basis for this advice, which Frankie Armstrong then passed on to others via workshops, it was a fashion of the uk folk revival and was absorbed by some as if it was a Gospel, as was the fad for singing with a smile on the face, I have listened to many traditional singers including Harry Cox, Fred Jordan, Bob Lewis all of whom sang naturally without affectations and in my opinion, Kens style of singing is natural, unaffected and influenced by traditional singers.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 10:58 AM

Its a shame that all your bickering has ruined what could have been a 'lovely' thread. Lovely song well executed.(IDIOTS)

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 09:46 AM

for example i also like this version but i do not claim to prefer either i like them both, it is not a feckin comhaltas competition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGe9ZIyEXgI

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Gilly
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 08:31 AM

A good song is a good song, I like lots of versions of this one. Tony Roses' is well worth a listen - 'Bare Bones' [Boneshaker, 1999, BSCD2001] if you can get a copy. Great version of 'Tom the Barber' there, too.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:11 PM

Jim, it is in my opinion quite acceptable to say here is another version that I like, it is not acceptable to say this is the preferred version, as if you are some god like authority, just go somewhere else with your pompous offerings and let other people enjoy Ken Wilsons fine singing and fine version of "lovely on the water"

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Brenda
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:36 PM

He does an excellent version of the "Weary Whalin Ground" on the same album. Speaking to him at Towersey earlier in the year, he is hoping to release a new CD in 2015.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Rob
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 08:22 AM

SUPERB! I have been listening to some other tracks from the same cd (Not Before Time)and have been very impressed. Why have we not heard Ken's solo material before? Is this the only recording of him singing Solo??

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:03 PM

Aaaaah...Goodnight!Annnnd rest!

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 03:04 PM

" it is in my opinion not very good mannered. the very fact that you call it the preferred version"
Are you out of your mind?
You do realise you've buggered up your own thread?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 01:27 PM

you have a right to Jim, and no one is trying to stop you, it is in my opinion not very good mannered. the very fact that you call it the preferred version[preferred by you]has in my opinion a ring of pomposity and self importance.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 12:22 PM

KEN is a fine singer, who in my opinion sings in a style that is strongly influenced by traditional singers.
The idea that people should sing with a smile on their face[a l loyd] or be concerned with singing in either a chest or head voice is a product of a certain group in the uk folk revival, some of whom appear to have ben friends or associates of Jim Carroll, this style may be popular with some but it has nothing to do with any style that i have yet heard from a uk traditional singer.
I am well aware that I may be further insulted for pointing this fact out[ i have already been called a talentless moron by Jim Carroll] but the truth has to be told.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:07 AM

You can hear more of Ken's fine singing when he and Jim Macfarland appear as the guests at the Grand Union folk club, Borrow on Soar, on Monday 26th January 2015.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:55 AM

"listen, i like kens version, there was no need for anyone else[jim] to suggest that someone else version was better."
I prefer Frankie's version - I said so - what kind of eejit suggests I haven't a right to - how dare you or anybody attempt to prevent any member of this form giving an alternative opinion
What are you on Dick?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Stil cookieless MartinRyan
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 06:17 AM

He has his preference - just as you do. "Better" doesn't enter into it.

Stop digging, please.

Regards

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 06:15 AM

I quote from your post
tSubject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 10:06 AM

My preferred version of this, from the album of the same vame
FRANKIE ARMSTRONG
Jim Carroll
you appear to prefer Armstrongs version, I do not.
JIM states clearly he prefers someone else version. I do not, I state that it is just my opinion, in my opinion that means that he has no idea, that is not an insult, it is a statement of my opinion, that he has no idea of taste.
the insults Reinhard as usual come from jim, keep taking the medication etc etc.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:56 AM

Shit! Where's me cookie gone?

MartinRyan

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:54 AM

He didn't.
Leave it.


Regards

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:52 AM

listen, i like kens version, there was no need for anyone else[jim] to suggest that someone else version was better.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 04:46 AM

"You're fighting on two fronts."
Stops getting old being boring Henry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 05:53 PM

Jim - take care.

You're fighting on two fronts.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 03:22 PM

In fact, what we need is something "lovely IN the water"! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 03:09 PM

"you appear to prefer Armstrongs version, I do not."
So what?
You were warned what would happen if you stopped taking your medication
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 03:05 PM

Have they gone yet?
Thank you Reinhard!Awesome rendition by Ken of a lovely song.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Reinhard
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:49 PM

Bad Actor Schweik, if it's "just a difference of option" then there is no need to state that Jim "shows he has no idea". But that's just your modus operandi you've proved here over and over egain: first insulting someone and, when you're taken to task for it, denying everything.

Now, can we please get back to musical discussions again, e.g. how fine this song and Ken Wilson's, Frankie Armstrong's and Martha Tilston's versions are?

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 01:45 PM

I quote from your post
tSubject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 10:06 AM

My preferred version of this, from the album of the same vame
FRANKIE ARMSTRONG
Jim Carroll
you appear to prefer Armstrongs version, I do not.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 01:11 PM

"Jim, you prefer Frankies version, I do not, is that clear, just a difference of opinion."
What the **** are you on about?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 01:09 PM

Jim, you prefer Frankies version, I do not, is that clear, just a difference of opinion.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 01:06 PM

"Jim, yet again you show you have no idea, that is just my opinion,"
Wha????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:34 PM

Jeez!

Regards

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:28 PM

Jim, yet again you show you have no idea, that is just my opinion, I prefer Ken Wilsons version

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 10:11 AM

Absolutely superb.

Joe N

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 10:06 AM

My preferred version of this, from the album of the same vame
FRANKIE ARMSTRONG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Liz
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 09:53 AM

Fantastic song, Well sang.

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 03:15 PM

Brillant.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 02:38 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iLeuhG9Y3w

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 01:39 PM

Great Voice!

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: Weasel
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 01:24 PM

If you open youtube and do a search on "lovely on the water" and "ken wilson" it appears.

Cheers,

Weasel

Subject: RE: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: JHW
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 11:11 AM

Tom on the e-fags and now Ken on the water! Had to check it out but my youtube says "This video is unavailable.Sorry about that."

Subject: Ken Wilson - 'Lovely on the water'
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 09:26 AM

A wonderful version of a beautiful traditional song, sung here by Ken Wilson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ileuhG9Y3w