BS: Criminality in greyhound racing

Subject: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 06:20 AM

This is The BBC Panorama investigation into the seedy world of greyhound racing. It exposes the drugging, cheating, cruelty in training and organised crime surrounding the "sport" and the unsavoury characters involved in it.

Greyhound racing -exposed

I used to love the odd night down the dog track years ago. If I knew it was a front for organised crime, would I still have enjoyed it? I already felt uncomfortable that dogs were bred for sport, not domestic love but hadn't thought on that those not good enough to race sometimes had cruel horrific deaths, as they were not needed, but like most people, I shut my eyes to it.

If you have the stomach, read this

more reading

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 06:22 AM

All commerce that is largely cash-only is at risk of criminality and being used for money-laundering.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 06:56 AM

This wouldn't be an ill concealed dig at a Mudcat member would it. If so could you possibly find another forum to conduct it on. There is more than enough bitterness and bile on Mudcat as it is.

Over to the mods I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 07:09 AM

Er, I didn't detect that kind of targeting in the post. Just because an issue might be of interest to certain people on the board it shouldn't need censorship. There's nothing to fear as long as their activities are above-board.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 07:23 AM

Richard is correct, there is an element of criminality in all sport where betting is allowed.
The GBGB have tightened up the sport considerably, especially concerning animal welfare....rehoming of retired dogs is now a given.

Thanks Raggy, you were of course correct in your assumption.
If any further facts are required feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer as an owner and trainer.

Personally, I would like to see the sport removed from the hands of the bookmaking corporations and the "totalisator" system brought back for betting purposes, This would stop the betting "coups" at a stroke, but unfortunately due to adverse publicity the sport is in relative decline and now relies heavily on bookmaker levies and sponsorship to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 07:52 AM

I would just add that I have a young pup who may be capable of contesting the English Derby this year, terrific prospect, perhaps the best dog I have ever owned.

All my dogs are either kept with me or are found comfortable and secure homes after retirement. They are kept in tip top condition, regular meals, fish chicken beef...with daily vitamins added to a formulated base.
They are galloped twice a week, swimming in a heated pool once a week and walked in grass and woodland every day.
They also run free in their paddocks in fine weather.
Their kennels are heated and bedding changed twice a week.

The doge love chasing, they love their lives and even after retirement they enjoy going back to the track to watch the youngsters go through their paces.
Greyhounds are a fine, beautiful and ancient breed, at full stride they take your breath away, they are only fulfilled when fully extended. I have known only a handful of people who treated their dogs badly and they were known and hated by the real dog men...and women.

The anti's are a joyless crew who understand nothing about the sport, but their propaganda is promoted by the media in sensational articles like the Panorama programme. The trainer concerned is a notorious blowhard who boosted his gambling prowess to obtain "five new expensive dogs" from the undercover reporter.....of course it was sting and the resultant mish mash made news.
The programme on rehoming left out the large number of dogs which are rehomed privately by the trainers, but these rehoming have all to be documented with the GBGB.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 08:18 AM

A USA perspective 

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Musket
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 08:27 AM

I have to agree with Bridge (shit shit shit) regarding cash activities. Akenaton also makes a fair point regarding betting and tote, although without gambling, would the sport exist?

My concern is, (and I volunteer taking dogs walking with my own rescue greyhound at a local sanctuary, and see the traumatised state of some they get, the treatment of dogs.

There are some good people breeding and training. There are some not so good as the link McMusket gave shows. There does need to be a full and proper investigation into the more seedy world. Official investigation, not journalism or self regulating but a question about breeding dogs for sport if the sport can deliver what we saw in the harrowing link in the op.

I have had my little boy four years and still, two scars won't fur over, he is timid, scared easily and only recently has come to fully trust my wife and I. We love the farting bugger, but he has trouble loving back. Isn't that so so fucking sad?

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for the replies to date.

The problem with any animal protection is that anti anything activists can give a noble aim a bad name. Nothing like as bad as those inflicting the cruelty, but their lending a support to animal welfare can be counter productive.

That said, The BBC programme was, for me, objective and allowed a typical trainer to give their perspective. Sting operations work when journalists sting criminals, no other time...

Raggytash. Thank you for pointing out vendettas. Your many posts decrying Akenaton's claim that my husband and I are sub human are most welcome. So not surprising that in the interest of balance you wrongly think that this is the same in reverse. If I start a thread on paedophilia, badger baiting, sniffiing women's bike seats or doing mainly cash only building work to avoid tax, please feel free to point out any Mudcat member you think I may be getting at.

My friend Jean in Strachur, a village nearby, is rallying support for Scotland to lead the way in tightening regulations and kill off the cruelty aspects, and I thought it was a good BS subject to debate. That a certain member is part of the greyhound industry gives a chance for a balanced debate, and his first post certainly does that. Other than his paranoid victim complex, assuming he is important enough for a thread to be started for him..

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 11:07 AM

"The cruelty aspects"....what cruelty aspects? Please be specific.
The huge majority of trainers and owners have the welfare of the dogs as first priority. It is in the interests of trainers to have their animals in good condition and be in a position to perform to the best of their ability.
If the trainers were not doing their job, owners would soon move their dogs elsewhere.

Regarding scarring on dogs, these are most often caused by dogs fighting, or perhaps running loose into wire fencing etc.
Scarring rarely occurs on the track, where surfaces are always well protected. The most common injuries are hock and wrist bones due to the dogs taking the bends at speeds approaching 40mph.
Most tracks are designed to alleviate this problem, by making the bends more gradual and increasing the banking. The new track at Toweceter is a good example.
A dogs temperament can be affected by any number of things which have occurred during its life, to blame the temperament of a withdrawn dog on the cruelty of a trainer is ridiculous...unless you have proof that cruelty occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 11:13 AM

for the cruelty aspects, click on the second link in my original post.

I'm sure trainers are interested in animal welfare, but that doesn't explain the seedy underbelly of the sport. Rather than brushing aside those who let you all down, a bit more action to drive them out would be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 11:53 AM

Well I read your second link guest...."Culling the litter" seems absolute bullshit to me...never heard of it, you cannot possibly know how good a dog will be till it starts trialling, I've seen little "runts" of just over 20 kilos beat bigger well made dogs easily.

No one in their right mind would kill pups who may turn out to be worth £1000's
I have dealt with care and injuries, transportation to and from Ireland is conducted by known transporters who are liable for any damage to any dog they transport.
Abandonment is almost impossible nowadays, each dog being chipped when registered and if any dog is abandoned its ear tattoos and chip will indicate the registered owner, who if found guilty will be heavily fined and banned from owning greyhounds in the future

If you have something specific you wish me to address please do so, otherwise go to a racing kennel and educate yourself, reading stuff from people dedicated to killing the sport is not educational.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 02:12 PM

Some Bloke in Scotland,

I am saddened by much of what I read on Mudcat and I have recently been involved in a thread that was closed by the Mods.

The mods closed the thread , with some justification I reluctantly have to say, as it was getting nowhere and personal attacks were increasing. At times I was sorely tempted to give vent to my true feelings regarding one individual in particular. So I cannot be the first to cast stones.

I know not of the specific gripes one 'catter has with another but this thread, from reading between the lines in other threads, seemed like a personal attack and not a comment about a serious subject from an interested party.

I did not intend to offend and apologise to you as you obviously saw it that way.

Regards and Seasons Greetings

Raggytash

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 05:11 PM

I cannot envision someone abusing or maltreating a dog that might just turn out to be his meal ticket. Counterproductive as well as inhumane.

My only acquaintance with the world of greyhound racing is minimal, and through an old friend of my wife's who has owned three retired racing greyhounds.

My wife's friend, Sherry, occasionally has seizures, but for some reason she was unable to get a service dog. A friend recommended a retired racing greyhound, so she managed to acquire one. After a short period while Sherry and "Genji" (the name she gave the dog), got acquainted, Genji was almost as good as a trained service dog. On those (fortunately) rare occasions when Sherry did have a seizure, Genji stood over her protectively and whined for help, then stood by and watched carefully when someone came to assist. No, particular training, Genji just did it.

Genji eventually died of old age, and Sherry got a second greyhound. Unfortunately, she didn't have the second dog very long because one day when they were out walking, the dog slipped its leash and took out after a car (love to chase, apparently) and a second car hit it.

Sherry just got her third greyhound and how that one will work out remains to be seen.

I became acquainted with the first two dogs on visits to our apartment (she lives only two blocks away), and they were very nice dogs. Bright, alert, and friendly. Sherry's apartment is very small and I asked her how that was working out for the dogs. She said it didn't seem to be any problem as long as she took them out every day to a large nearby park and let them have a good run. They seem to love that, she said.

"And fast…!!"

Don Firth

P. S. I read on a couple of web sites about greyhound racing in the United States, Florida in particular, that after a dog's racing career is done (circa five years, apparently), that if a dog is not kept for breeding, or if they can't find a home for it, that thousands of healthy greyhounds are simply "put to sleep."

Appalling!!

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 05:55 PM

Not sure how welfare is handled in the US Don, but that certainly could not happen here.

If I re-home a dog privately, it must be reported to the GBGB who must be supplied with the name and address of new owner.
They then make checks by letter and personal visit to make sure the dog is comfortably and securely homed.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 06:43 PM

Years ago I was given two 'retired' greyhounds. The bitch had killed her first litter after retirement so she was slated for euthanizing. Instead, the veterinarian brought her to me. The male was younger and been judged not fast enough.

They were lovely dogs. Luckily my hillside acreage was fully fenced so they got plenty of exercise. I say luckily because when I took them for walks I couldn't make them break out of an easy trot. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 07:02 PM

When I was a young child my Father told me there are only two kinds of people in the world ........ good one's and bad one's ....... Everything else is unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Musket
Date: 24 Dec 14 - 03:12 AM

My ex racing greyhound is my constant companion and has become part of me in every way.

I give money to greyhound trusts, especially the one we got our little boy from. What annoys me though is that these places have to fund raise when there is so much money sloshing around in the system.

I also contribute to a few organisations committed to putting greyhound racing under scrutiny. There have been prosecutions for cruelty, for killing unwanted dogs and for training with live bait. Stop the reason, stop the action.

Training to race and racing doesn't have to be cruel and I am convinced most of it isn't. If Akenaton could write so eloquently about his fellow man as he does about the greyhounds he loves, there could be hope for him yet. But for now, I can't understand why indignation by him and his colleagues in the sport hasn't led to chasing out the bad. If they got their house in order, the organised crime would wither and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 14 - 04:18 AM

I can't understand why indignation by him and his colleagues in the sport hasn't led to chasing out the bad

Could it have been 'organised' that way ?

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: banjoman
Date: 24 Dec 14 - 05:21 AM

Some years ago we did a gig in Shropshire to raise funds for an organization that rescued retired greyhounds.
We were told some horrific stories of dogs being thrown our of vans on motorways or having ears cut of and left to bleed to death on rubbish piles.
Not too sure how realistic some of these tales were, but I know of some friends who took on 2 retired dogs which had been abandoned which turned out to be great companions and spent their latter years in comfort.
I was also told that greyhounds which have retired tend to be a bit lazy and like to spend a lot of time "resting"

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Musket
Date: 24 Dec 14 - 05:31 AM

And farting...

To be fair, they are a lazy dog. the sprinting does not transfer to stamina. I was dubious when the rescue trusts were saying "they only need two 20 min walks a day." he gets more than that, but is reluctant sometimes to go. Laying perfectly still for up to twelve hours at a time is my little boy's party piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 14 - 05:56 AM

Cruelty is viewed very seriously by all reputable owners and trainers, that is why the false allegations levelled at me have been noted an filed.

Ian is obviously very fond of his companion, and anyone who has ever had the good fortune to have a greyhound as a friend, will find it hard to understand why anyone could be heartless enough to treat them badly.....but sadly it does happen, not often, and not on the scale of horse racing, or factory farming of livestock for human consumption.
Any cruelty in greyhound racing is usually down to desperation or incompetence .....as has been stated already the gambling corporations have a huge leverage on how the sport is conducted, introducing eight dog races and putting pressure on trainers to fill cards with dogs who may not be fully fit, or up to the grade in which they have been placed. The margins are negligible and few professional trainers make any profit from racing the dogs in their care...most are actually losing money, yet the kennels(even the ones visited by the Panorama team) are pristine...a requirement of GBGB.

I am fully aware of every unreported detail in the Panorama "expose" and can reveal that it is full of half truths and outright lies.
The trainer concerned is notorious for gross exaggeration of his betting coups, and the claims he made regarding winning were unbelievable to anyone who knows the first thing about the sport.
He was trying to "con" the "stinger"

Greyhound racing in Australia is all totalisator...no bookmakers and cuts out all cheating an price rigging. The same system could be used here if the stranglehold of the bookmaking corporations was
broken.....The anti racing brigade are actually making things worse, as they will never beat the bookmakers and prize money, track improvements, welfare issues will never move forward till the money generated by large attendances an sensible betting(like they have in Oz) goes back to the tracks through the tote system.
They will never stop greyhound racing, but will set it more firmly in the hands of the bookmaking corporations and all that goes with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Musket
Date: 24 Dec 14 - 06:49 AM

Often thought a single tote would help drive out money laundering and with it, many other links to crime. A night at the dogs is full of people there for the occasion, rather than just gamblers. Far easier to sort than say horse racing which attracts professional gamblers for whom totes are not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Criminality in greyhound racing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Dec 14 - 08:35 AM

Mither, the verbs "to lay" and to lie" differ. You should know that.