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Origins: Irish Folk Tune?

Mysha 01 Mar 15 - 06:26 PM
meself 01 Mar 15 - 06:56 PM
meself 01 Mar 15 - 06:57 PM
meself 01 Mar 15 - 07:03 PM
Jack Campin 01 Mar 15 - 07:06 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 15 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,leeneia 01 Mar 15 - 07:17 PM
meself 01 Mar 15 - 07:32 PM
Noreen 01 Mar 15 - 08:46 PM
meself 01 Mar 15 - 11:35 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 15 - 02:50 AM
MartinRyan 02 Mar 15 - 03:12 AM
Mysha 02 Mar 15 - 02:00 PM
Mysha 02 Mar 15 - 02:39 PM
Noreen 02 Mar 15 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,leeneia 02 Mar 15 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 03 Mar 15 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,leeneia 03 Mar 15 - 09:24 AM
Mysha 03 Mar 15 - 11:17 AM
Mysha 07 Mar 15 - 06:08 AM
Mysha 07 Mar 15 - 08:07 AM
GUEST 07 Mar 15 - 09:43 AM
Mysha 07 Mar 15 - 12:19 PM
Jack Campin 07 Mar 15 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Mysha 03 Apr 15 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 03 Apr 15 - 06:34 AM
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Subject: Origins: See, do wide see: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Mysha
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:26 PM

Hi,

"See, do wide see" is a Frisian song, for which the lyrics are usually attributed to "Pieter Jelles Troelstra", and the melody is always given as "Irish Folk Tune". It never says what tune, though.

Is there anyone who can hear something even vaguely familiar in Griet Wiersma singing See do wide see, that might help determine what tune this is?

Bye
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:56 PM

Sounds to me like an old Gospel hymn - I'm not sure I ever knew the actual hymn; I'm familiar with a parody called 'The Baptists' by ... his name's slipped my mind - the infamous 19th century PEI songwriter ....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:57 PM

Of course, that's not to say that the Gospel hymn melody didn't come from an 'Irish folk tune'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 07:03 PM

(Larry Gorman is the name I was looking for.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 07:06 PM

It's a lot like "The Rattling Bog".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 07:16 PM

Jack, I agree, especially the chorus: deffo Rattlin' Bog, albeit slowed down slightly!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 07:17 PM

Yes, the first theme is "Heigh, ho, the rattling bog, and the bog down in the valley..."

It's a song for children, one of those cumulative songs that names the parts of a tree and winds up with an egg in a nest.

Whether that's Irish or not, I don't know.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 07:32 PM

Then there's The Old Grey Goose .


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Noreen
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:46 PM

It is close to the Rattlin' Bog as you say, but the whole thing is the air to "Oft in the Stilly Night" which was one of my Dad's favourites.

It is played every year at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day, with David of the White Rock for Wales and Flowers of the Forest for Scotland.

Count John McCormack singing Oft In the Stilly Night


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 11:35 PM

I think Noreen has nailed it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 02:50 AM

Familiar enough in form - not unlike the Scots song, 'Lassie W' the Yellow Coatie'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 03:12 AM

Yep - wot Noreen said!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Mysha
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 02:00 PM

Hi,

Never noticed the resemblance with the Bog down the Valley before. But, yes, there is one. "The chicken or the egg?" I wonder.

Thanks, Noreen: That's definitely the one. A quick look around suggests it might be Scottish then, even if John McCormack was Irish. (That would match with Lassie ... as well, I guess.) Some checking of facts is indicated, it seems.

Other than that, half of the time I can't separate the opera from the lyrics when John McCormack sings, so it's now lyrics finding time. Fortunately I know a plethora of lyrics nearby.

Thanks everyone for the quick reactions,
Bye
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Mysha
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 02:39 PM

Now I suddenly find myself whistling The Rose of Allendale. Hadn't noticed that one before either.

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 05:54 PM

No, definitely Irish, Mysha. Look up Thomas Moore and Irish Airs. I would but I'm on my phone.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 06:56 PM

What happened to my post!? I said that Noreen was right on the money.

Here's a link to a male choir singing, 'See, see....' It has fine singing and scenery.

Lemster Mannenkoor

Question: if something is Friesian, where does it come from? Friesia?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 08:30 AM

Friesland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 09:24 AM

Okay.

Myesha, thanks for bringing this up. I've added this beautiful melody to my repertoire.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Mysha
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 11:17 AM

Did it again, did I? I keep locating Thomas Moore in Scotland for some reason. I have no idea why. How do I stop that? Is there maybe an obviously Irish song that mentions the gentleman, so I can build an association?

OK, so the lyrics part is certain. Now all I need to find out is where the tune came from. Noreen, when I have a bit more time I'll try and check whether your keywords give me that part (unless someone beats me to it).

Leeneia, I had intentionally picked the version by Griet Wiersma. The Lemster Mannenkoor is a fine choir, and they're good singers to have next to you when singing in a mega-choir together, but I'm not fond of the arrangements they use, which don't give much prominence to the melody voice. Griet Wiersma's version, even if not exactly folk, is clearer.

Something which is Friesian comes from Friesland, which isn't much different from something Frisian coming from Frisia. It's mostly a matter of whose spelling and naming you use. To us over here, it's Frysk and Fryslân. It's that part of the (European) Continent which borders on the North Sea and has a chain of islands along the coast.

You're welcome, Leeeneeia,

Bye,
                                                               Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Mysha
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 06:08 AM

Hi,

The plot thickens:
"Oft in the Stilly Night" is apparently from Moore's "National Airs", with music provided by John Andrew Stevenson. The claims I encountered so far is that he did not write the music for this poem, but arranged an existing, Scottish tune. Indeed poetry collections list the poem itself with a subtitle of "Scotch Air" as well.

Irish or Scottish, then? It may be 'Lassie W' the Yellow Coatie' is the closest to the mark after all.
I'll go see if I can find the root publication on-line somewhere.

Bye
                                                                  Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Mysha
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 08:07 AM

Right: A collection of these lyrical poems is at The Internet Archive: The Irish melodies, national airs, sacred songs, etc., of Thomas Moore (1874).
On page 200 is what appears to be the original introduction, which explains the book added lyrics to pre-existing airs that either had not lyrics or lyrics that would be unintelligible to most. On page 212 is "Oft in the Stilly Night". The only provenance given is "(Scotch Air.)"

Of the 76 poems from National Airs, in only one case original words are mentioned, and then only as the inspiration for the poem. In three other cases the original titles are given. Other collections that include National Airs seem to differ little in this respect. Unless it turns out the publication that included the scores had more information, we'll have to assume that in the other cases Thomas Moore didn't know the originals, or they were unintelligible to him.
(There's an 1860 edition with music in Google Books, but it has even less information than the edition linked above.)

It would seem the melody of "Oft in the Stilly Night" and "See, do wide see" is a Scottish air, or possibly the melody of a Scottish song that Moore felt was unintelligible enough that he could put his own lyrics to it.

Bye
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 09:43 AM

I think in the turn of the tune in bar 14 there is a distinct resemblance to 'Looking Through the Knothole in Granny's Wooden Leg'- academic thesis awaited...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Mysha
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 12:19 PM

Rather: The turn of the tune in bar 14 shows a distinct resemblance to 'Looking Through the Knothole in Granny's Wooden Leg'.

Could we have a sneak preview? Which of the two will the researcher demonstrate to have gone through a time warp?


Bye
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 03:48 PM

Another possibility: "March to the Battlefield", on my website in a flute version from 1838. I haven't tried to trace where it was first published.

http://www.campin.me.uk/Flute/Webrelease/Flute/04March/04March.htm


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST,Mysha
Date: 03 Apr 15 - 05:18 AM

Hi Jack,

At home I had trouble opening the playing links on that page, so I waited until I had the time to try so at work. Now that I have a colleague again to share the workload with, I find that here at work I can't play those either. I can play the midis, though, and they do sound similar to See, do wide see.
(How I would love to learn to sing right from the sheet to cut out confusion like this. All I can say is that the scores look quite similar as well, and plucking my way through it one note at a time does get me something similar.)


OK, then:
- The Bog down in the Valley seems to have only parts of the first form. It may have been an inspiration, but it would seem more likely to me that it used what fit for a stacking song. In the form that I know it in, it's also neither Scots nor unintelligible.
- Lassie Wi' the Yellow Coatie is going into my repertoire as soon as I have the time; I like that one. However, it uses only the first form. Similar to Bog ...
- March to the Battlefield: This one both forms, and apart from the frills is quite close.

So, currently, I'd say the original tune is March to the Battlefield. With National Airs being dated 1818-1827 there's a gap of twenty years to cover, though, so if someone happens to know of an earlier appearance, that would make a nice addition for Guest's thesis on Granny's wooden leg. In all it would seem the original tune was Scottish after all.

On the other hand, since the tune for "See, do wide see" was indicated as "Irish", it would seem that in that case it was taken from Oft in the Stilly Night. As Pieter Jelles was born in 1860, the tune would indeed have had time to reach him.


Anyone who can add to this?
BFN
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish Folk Tune?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Apr 15 - 06:34 AM

Check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1PCI1L709U for a beautiful and spine tingling performance by the Lemster Mannenkoor choir. I can't hear much in the tune apart from the already mentioned Oft In The Stilly Night.

However, since Moore was in the habit of refashioning melodies which he lifted from Edward Bunting's Ancient Music of Ireland, it could be that the tune of See Do Wide See is nearer to Bunting's "original" than to Moore's remake. Can anyone check.

BTW., does anyone have an English translation of the words?


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