BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?

Subject: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Donna Marie
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 02:27 AM

Attention all Hoarders with Super Messy Houses!

I would like to hear from other people like myself who cannot throw anything away, meaning magazines you have been collecting for years, newspaper or newspaper articles and just a zillion other things.
I am single so no one to actually complain but I cannot have friends over because of the clutter. It is not just in one room but everywhere! No I don't have dirty dishes around in the sink. I do wash dishes (by hand) as there is no dishwasher here but even the counters in the kitchen are cluttered with things.

Cannot seem to clean it up. It's funny because the one thing I do regularly (almost every day) is clean my clothes. I can't stand to have piles of dirty clothes so though I am messy in other ways, I do clean all my clothes, towels, sheets, etc a lot. I am also clean and shower daily, but it is just a matter of clutter everywhere that I cannot seem to get under control. I have records, VHS tapes, CDs but not in any order, just kind of all over the place in piles. I have so many books but cannot seem to get rid of them or donate them. I just want to keep them as I love books but there are so many that are just in piles and really no room for a bookcase (just have one but it is not too big)
I know it is a sickness of a sort when you are a hoarder (and there are various degrees of hoarding, some worse then others.)

So everything is kind of mish/mashed all around with no real order to where things are.

No, there are no classes in my area for this sort of thing. Did check at a few colleges in the area but nothing about dealing with hoarding.

Since I am on a super, super limited income I cannot afford therapy either.

So I would like to hear from others who have similar situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 03:51 AM

I sympathise with you, Donna Marie, because, until recently, my house was in the same sort of state! But about 18 months ago something snapped! I thought, I can't put up with this any more! So I made a plan.

The first step of the plan (by far the hardest) was to ruthlessly declutter. I had a problem with books too: hundreds and hundreds of them. I put aside those that I really, really wanted to keep (i.e. books on natural history) and got rid of the rest. One third went to charity shops and the other two thirds went to local book dealers - who paid me 'peanuts' and, I'm sure, got an absolute bargain - but they took the books away. Then loads of other stuff went to charity shops (especially those that agreed to come round and take stuff away).My re-cycling bins got filled and emptied countless times!

The next six steps of the plan were to do with things like double glazing, modernising electrics (not dangerous but a bit out of date), decorating, buying new furniture etc. It took just over a year - but I did it!

Last week I became acquainted with a couple who live locally and they came round. The first thing that they said was: "What a lovely house!"
No-one has ever said that about my house before! A first!

So it is possible; you just have to be ruthless.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 04:36 AM

yes - maddening innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 06:31 AM

Maybe you should decide to not do any laundry on one day a week and then use the time to clear out or off one little space.

Do not think that you will try to do that - decide, and then do it.
Breaking habits and attitudes can start a chain reaction.

Moving things out of a corner can unearth things you've been looking for for ages, things you didn't know you had, and a lot of dust and debris. Put the rubbish out in the dustbin and if anything is going to be donated clean it up and bag it ready to go - maybe even take it straight away - the fresh air will do you good.

Of course at first you will simply move most of the stuff to other piles, but you will find space, and with any luck it will become your new love and you will be able to get rid of the things which have been filling it. You do have to decide to change and then start work - nothing else will make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:26 AM

I keep "things that may come in handy one day". Old PC components and accessories, cables, mains adaptors, cables, electric fittings, odd bits of ironmongery, etc. I have a clearout once every 5 to 10 years.

I also have a few of piles to sort out. A couple of them are CD/DVDs, mostly unmarked. They will probably contain a couple of audio CDs that got into the piles somehow and need to be put back in their proper cases - they would be easily sorted out but most will be old backups and software downloads (eg. Linux distributions). I need to go through every one just in case there is something I do want to keep amongst them but never seem willing to face getting round to doing this.

My own messes are confined to my own space but others in the family have been known to compound the problem as anything "unidentified" tends to be assumed to be mine and/or I'm just the dumping ground. This has for example wound up on more than one occasion with the charger for Pip's mobile phone getting dumped in my own assortment of mains adapters...

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:32 AM

I found stuff in my hut today that I never knew I had.
It's just like Christmas, but with cobwebs.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:40 AM

Donna, no therapist, however expensive, will declutter your home. Neither will ruthlessness, neither will Ruth ;-).

The problem seems to be related to alcoholism and obesity, though slightly less grave and unhealthy. The most important step is to motivate oneself permanently - not ruthlessly. Think of your (future) friends you would like to invite for a jolly party - this works in my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:41 AM

"Donna Marie," You need to visit the declutter threads - (this will probably be moved into the most current one) - there is an ongoing discussion and I think you'll find that by going back through the old threads (they're all linked) you'll find lots of tools to work with.

I will ask that while you participate at Mudcat you use ONE NAME as a guest. You're all over the board with your previous guest names, and people like to know who they are talking to from one post to the next.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:42 AM

guilty as charged...

It's our family curse.. my old mum believes it's a genetic hereditary trait.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:03 AM

... oh.. guilty of hoarding..

not guilty of being the multi ID Opening Poster...



btw.. even though I don't like the name "punkfolkrocker" I seem to be stuck with it;
and can no longer be arsed winding up the mods with frequent use of jokey one shot disposable thread guest names..

[wellll.. maybe not entirely reformed...]

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 04:13 PM

also pleading guilty. I am loathe to throw out old stuff that I might use again, or maybe benefit someone sometime.   but I suppose that as long as it don't get to the dangerous stage, it don't matter until you cant stAND IT ANY LONGER!.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 04:17 PM

I am very messy and my house has everything just strewn around so I have to keep very minimal possessions. I get my mail at work so no paper. I do most of my cooking at work so no food mess. I have no desire for pets, books, lots of clothes. I deliberately have no messy hobbies. I read Kindle rather than books. I live in a tiny cabin with a bed, ironing board, small table, office chair, stove, sink, reefer, kitchen cabinets, a built in bench and shelves and a tiny bathroom. It is really cute and on a very expensive property. I have no desire to have people over..would rather meet them someplace.

Put all the cds and vinyl in a laundry basket or six. Likewise any clothing out. Likewise any paper. Try to recycle paper as you see it...whatever you printed out you most likely don't need. Recipes etc...unless magazines are very specialized, take them to the nearest laundromat. People love them. Same for cheap paperbacks, trashy novels etc.

It is OK for something to hurt if you give it away. Other people need it or it needs to be transformed from paper clutter into new books etc.

When you have gathered stuff to donate, do it right away..don't let it linger.

Get rid of cheap and bulky items first..old dishpans, bathmats etc.

Ask for help and accept it. Limit it to one category..sorting through clothing or even just tops at first.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 04:47 PM

or maybe benefit someone sometime

Of those... Does anyone have a use for a 16 port TPLink Easy Smart swithch or a TPLink TL-WA901ND Wireless Access point, Both were puchased for plans I had but subsequently cancelled... They are little used/nearly brand new. As well as giving away, I'm willing to post FOC to a UK address if anyone can use one or both of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 05:13 PM

I would start with the obvious stuff like newspapers and junk mail that won't hurt. Bag them and recycle them. Do not think, as a friend's mother does, that there will be something interesting to read that you have missed, as in the old days there was something interesting on the chip wrapper, even if it was a paper you took. There won't be, or you won't read it. I have been a bit guilty of this myself, as my paper is large and has a lot of stuff in it. Last week I threw out four bags full for the bin men. Except that I was so busy packing the bags that I missed the lorry and had to take them to the dump myself.
While my friend's mother was in hospital, I threw out not only newspapers, but also loads of estate agents' magazines - turned out she kept those for the photos of historical local buildings. Ooops. But she didn't cut the pages out and file them, just left them mixed up with everything else - how was I to know they weren't just junk mail?
She doesn't want to declutter. She uses it as a wall. If you do want to declutter, most of the hard work is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 05:27 PM

My wife says I hoard guitars.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 07:23 PM

Hoarder? Yes, but I prefer to call myself a clutterbug!
House a mess? Yes.

I have always been comfortable with clutter except when I realize how it looks to others. Once in a while I look at something and think, "Why do I still have that?" and throw it out--but not often.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:38 PM

I prefer to call myself a history collector. Like that historic broken sink in my garage or the boxes of I don't know what in my basement. All past history Lol. Besides someday that leasure suit may come back in style

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Donna
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:55 PM

To ChanteyLass:

Good to read your post. You seem to understand... thanks.

To Silly River Sage:
You posted a message about using two names (on my original post.)
I didn't know that you are not supposed to do that so I will just use my first name only now. I didn't understand your statement about "All over the board with your previous guest names."
Previous guest names??
I just did not understand that you cannot use your middle name too.

To Guest Grishka: You wrote that the "Problem seems to be related to alcoholism and obesity."
I am neither. Don't smoke or do drugs either.

---

Donna Marie, The request was to use a consistent name when you post at mudcat, or at least in the same thread, not to limit what you call yourself to a certain number of syllables or words in your name. You have used other names when posting elsewhere on mudcat was the point being made. It's best to stick to one guest name, as in "Guest, Donna Marie," in every post here. It also makes it much easier to find your own posts again if you do a search. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:22 PM

Donna Marie, I am sure that it is not the two names that mods object to but differing names from the same person in different threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:30 PM

I've seen news articles on research that consider hoarding an addiction, & it is internationally recognised as a disorder
university course - Understanding and Treating Hoarding Disorder & Mayo clinic

we have a well-known family of psychologically affected hoarders in a suburb not far from me - Bobolas family hoarders in the thick of it as big clean-up begins at Bondi

My 1-bedroom apartment is full of books, craft materials, collections & lots of other useful stuff, & some of my non-collecting/tidy freak friends consider it a mess (so do I as I look at the books etc. on the floor that have slid from their neat piles ...

But when does accumulating slide over into hoarding disorder?

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:52 PM

Bobolas house over the years

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Donna
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 01:26 AM

To Sandra in Sydney:

Hi! I clicked on your link, Bobolas house over the years but it said, "Page Cannot be Found", "Sorry Page Cannot Be Found"

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 02:51 AM

Donna, the page was an old one so maybe the link changed. I found it by
google image search - bondi hoarders bobolas

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 03:54 AM

in the UK we have Freegle, a Yahoo market place to give away stuff.
Find a Freegle and I would bet there are other similar groups around the world. But you may be giving to another hoarder.
Every time I try for a DEC phone that is going, it is already gone. I can afford to buy one - just too lazy to search

and make a decision.

AND THAT'S ANOTHER THING!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 04:26 AM

I object to the suggestion that hoarding is pathological.
There is something wrong with today's society of planned obsolescence and fashion, things should be able to be usefully kept, used, repaired if needed.

Mind you, I really should do something with the pile of mending and old sheets to be turned into pillow cases. And there is a pile of old TVs/video recorders/amplifiers etc - I think some of it works but I don't know which.
Video and Audio cassetes, some unused.
Books - ah yes. I'll start with books. Of course I'll have to reread each one as I decide. Then consult the rest of the family to see if they want them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 07:13 AM

A hoarder doesn't see the same world as non hoarders. Some event has changed how they perceive things, usually a death or abandonment according to those who treat such things.

It isn't exactly the same as an addiction but there seem to be similarities.

Hoarders seem to have one advantage over addicts, in that they get positive feedback from starting to dispose of their hoards, as long as they do it and don't have it imposed upon them. The trick seems to be getting them started on the task by persuasion rather than force, and going over and over the information that the things they cling to are inanimate objects with little intrinsic value, until it sinks in.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 07:18 AM

Every time I try for a DEC phone that is going, it is already gone.

We actually gave some Panasonic DECT phones and a base station away a few months ago to someone we know.

They had worked well for a couple of years or more but had started to misbehave here (after about 30 seconds crackling on the line then other party couldn't hear us) and I tried things like new batteries, even thought it's a different band, changing wifi channels etc. We replaced them with Gigastet ones which have worked perfectly.

Anyway, they wound up in my pile... I had a conversation with the person they went to which I think started with a comment about thier lack of an answerphone and missed calls. I said I have this set that no longer wants to work at our house and that she might as well try them before buying anything.

I'm a bit baffled as to the why's and wherfores. There are a lot of wireless singnals here (home automation 433, heating something around 800? and wifi) and we are a bit spread out in a bungalow... But apparently, our retired set have worked perfectly in her property.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 08:34 AM

Mo - if you check the story I linked to in my first post you will see a case where the things that are hoarded are not useful eg. garbage bags put out by other people. The hoarders live with a yard full of filth & rats & have had their place cleaned up by the council many times over the past years. As the rubbish is being put into skips they drag it out when they can.

I've been recycling & repairing since the 70s & hate wasting stuff that other folks can use. My electric frypan, unused for the past year or 2 is waiting to be taken to the nearest charity shop along with some other stuff I don't need.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 09:05 AM

Mo, if you had seen what I have seen, you would know that there is hoarding and hoarding.

My mother said her parents were hoarders, because they kept a number of interesting things, such as an 18th century microscope, a magic lantern, a stereoscope and a rotary knife cleaner, but their house was clean and spacious and liveable in.

She reacted to this perceived, but not to my mind, hoarding by throwing out the magic lantern and insisting that I gave the microscope which had been left to me, and which she thought was Victorian, to the local museum, from which it has disappeared, apparently.

I have more recently been involved with a hoarder's house. It is full of newspapers and knotted plastic bags of food in tins, and other knotted plastic bags containing rubbish to be thrown out, and not in neat stacks, either. It is hazardous, but it is how the owner wants it. After a tidy, which only touched the hall, the owner claimed that nothing could be found because it had been tidy before I messed it up by putting things into plastic crates and throwing out the rubbish bags (I had had to unknot all those bags). It is now worse than before. The house is full of stuff, and it is not the might be useful some day sort of stuff in any way. (I have that sort. I have to be scrupulous. I don't need the sort of thing that might be useful for classroom craft projects any more.) This is a psychological condition which needs help of some kind.

It is possible to identify events which may have caused it, which I won't do here, but there is definitely something not right, and I think it is fair, in this sort of case, to use the word pathological.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 09:17 AM

On the genetic bit, I do have a mate who puts his own desires to pick stuff up down to his Romany heritage.

The other side of the coin is that he is very intelligent (phd micro biology or related) and has a collection of skills which do enable him to make use of "things" if he finds a purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 10:06 AM

My mum reckons she's a hoarder probably because when she was a child
her home was bombed in the blitz
and all her family's possessions were obliterated.
She was evacuated in only the clothes she was wearing.

How hoarding was then passed to me and my now deceased sibling is a psychological mystery... ???

My home is now unbearably overstuffed with my own collection of music instruments, Hi-tech gear, CDs etc..
plus all the 'important and valuable' personal stuff
I had to clear out of my siblings rented flat after recent sudden bereavement.

Me and the mrs can only live in 2 rooms at the moment,
the rest of the house is a storage depot.

For all sorts of reasons chucking things out will not be easy
until we've resolved sibling's totally disorganised estate and debts.

And being realistic, we have to consider that mum is in her 80s and has a 3 bedroom council house,
3 sheds and an attic packed with our families 'heritage'
looming dark on the horizon....

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 11:46 AM

There are lots of tools and resources discussed and success stories reported in the declutter threads. Alas, we lost some classic posts because in the most recent one when I tried to restore the current thread -- I didn't realize mudcat was going to truncate the post and I didn't keep a copy of the file before I hit "send."

fatB****rd is a newer participant who has reported success, and in that link to the first post of the previous thread, you see that a lurker not only took heart, but went ahead and took care of the job, only reporting in when it was finished. That is the hope - that by keeping the declutter thread going something along the way will click for lurkers and they'll conquer their stash/hoard/mess/clutter, whatever stage of crowded living they are in.

I won't describe the pathology of living in a space crowded with too much stuff, but Don Aslett, who got his start in a cleaning business in Idaho years ago, discovered a pent-up need for declutter assistance when he wrote one of his "how-to" books about cleaning and included one chapter on clutter. The response was instant and immense, so he spent more time thinking about and discussing the problem. Of his various books I find Clutter's Last Stand to be the most philosophical. It helps the reader examine WHY they are holding onto some of these things, and addresses how to let go without creating anxiety attacks and guilt (which can accompany a stash in particular if it involves possessions of deceased loved ones or family estates).

I didn't merge this with the current declutter thread because I'm seeing new names and names that used to declutter but who dropped out (due to success, I hope!) The topic is helpful and if having "hoarder" in the title helps, I'll see if it can fit in the next declutter thread (due to start in early April - I try not to clutter mudcat with too many of these things!).

BTW - Katlaughing was the one who started and tended these for a while, and she enjoyed reading them even when unable to post as much. They've been around for years now, and are used by people for various reasons. Some folks keep track of daily tasks, others record work and can go back and see how far they have progressed or capture content they need. In my instance, I had a lot of inherited stuff that I have gradually thinned out. Since I didn't know my father's family well (he was estranged from them but I reconnected with my great aunt back in the 1970s) I've decided that though I'm going to sell (eBay, Craig's List, etc.) or donate, I should know something about the item first, so my research for eBay sales has allowed me to learn about things and still decide that "I am not a museum" and let them go.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 07:28 PM

Hmm family estates. They don't have a lot and if parent died, things would be split 4 ways but there are items I (and I think my mother) would not like to see go out of the family.

The grandmother clock which when my grandmother was a sub postmistress was the village post office clock.

The old oak table, now regualrly polished but I belive used to be scrubbed when my mother was a kid. I touch battered and repapaired but a nice bit of solid rustic furniture.

The round table.

The old brass jam pot and saucepan.

Maybe it shouldn't be and I usually distance myself from this sort of thing but some things still I suppose do hold some form of family sentimental value.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 08:04 PM

I am not a hoarder--but I do preserve odds and ends of fasteners and mechanical links and valves, stored neatly in the garage in case the perfect need for them arises. I have lots of spare wood pieces, dowels and other oddments but I try to keep them orderly.

We frequently muster up the courage to throw things out that have been hanging around too long, and hardly ever have we regretted it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 08:06 PM

Reminds me anyone need 8 track tapes

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Lin
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 08:39 PM

To Guest olddude:

I am actually looking for an 8 track player that you can use in the house. (not for use in a car.) Do you have one by any chance?
I only have one 8 track tape that I want to be able to play. It is an obscure 8 track tape of "Unknown artists" covering Joni Mitchell songs and I want to be able to play it. I don't know anyone with an 8 track player at all.
I can add it to my messy place too. :0)

Thanks,
Lin

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 11:54 PM

Mom hoarded. They didn't call it that when I was a kid; there was no TV show about it. She was a 'packrat', considered herself a collector.
I would argue with those who aver it is a lesser problem than alcoholism; the negative impact on the hoarder and family is immeasurable.

It wasn't until her house almost burnt down (oh that it would have entirely) due to papers being ignited by a space heater - furnace had broken & she wouldn't allow repairman in - this was after everyone else had moved out & away, that I realized there was a name for her condition. I also realized there was very, very little I could do about it. That was over 15 years ago. She moved back in when the house was repaired and began again. And got much much worse.

The short story is she is now out of her house and in extended care, so problem kinda solved. But this has informed my entire lifetime, and I'm entering the final third.

The difference between Mom and Guest Donna Marie is this, and it is a massive difference: Mom denied she had a problem. Donna Marie thinks she might have one, and is reaching out.

There are resources out there.

The blue clickinator isn't working for me just now. Here is an info page at the OCD foundation:

http://hoarding.iocdf.org/hoarding/about.aspx

Also search for "Children of Hoarders", for links and stories.

The top researchers in the field are Randy Frost and Gail Steketee - a search will yield many papers authoured by them.

Donna Marie, do you have a picture in your head of what you wish your house, or even one room in it looked like?

Wishing you well,
Bardford

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 05:23 AM

For me, there's always been a strong element of procrastination in my untidiness. I think: 'I'll read that article later - when I've more time'. So the magazines and newspapers etc. build up. Then I look at the mess and reflect on how onerous a task it will be to clean it up - and so put it off until 'tomorrow' - when I've more energy to tackle it ... and so on and so on ...

In the end, I did 'tackle it' - see above. I'm not sure where I got the energy from, though!

Now I've got a system. I've got four smallish bins inside the house: one for general waste, one for paper, one for re-cyclable cans and bottles and a fourth for kitchen waste. The contents of the first three are regularly decanted into the rubbish bins outside - which are equally regularly emptied by the binmen. The contents of the fourth go into my compost bin as soon as possible.

I suppose that procrastination is widely seen as some sort of moral failing, but I did read somewhere that it might be associated with certain neurological disorders. I've got epilepsy - so could be more prone to it. Must ask my neurologist.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 10:17 AM

Shimrod, success breeds success. Once you started seeing the cleared space you were inspired to clear some more. It's a natural succession when you get started working on a big job. Please continue to drop in on the declutter threads occasionally!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 11:07 AM

I, too, am the child of a packrat. My mother grew up poor in the Depression and never quite got over it.

Throughout my adult life, I have struggled to control my desire for stuff I don't need. The best way I have found is to set limits: the house has only so many bookcases, for example, and we DO NOT pile books on the floor or stash them in the cellar. (My parents did both, and the consequences were BAD.) Newspapers go out every two weeks on recycling day. We read The New Yorker on line. Trash novels are read on an e-reader. Likewise, all my shirts, underwear and gym clothes have to fit into one chest of drawers, and it's not big.

My husband is only sort of on board with this program. He has no problem with clutter and tends to let things drop from his fingers and fall where they may. He tolerates my neat-freakiness, but I find that the true secret of marital peace is separate bathrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 11:23 AM

I've procrastinated [and that is the key word] for years over
letting go of all my varied collections..

But clearing out my siblings rented flat was a suddenly imposed task
which had to be completed by a fixed deadline
imposed by the property's landlord...

That was a hellish job because sibling had a mess of mental health issues and physical disabilities,
and had become a compulsive internet shopping addict due a very high level of disposable income
funded from astute financial dealings in earlier life,
and then multiple credit card debts in the last years...

The 3 room flat was a hoard of mountains of mildewing unworn clothing
with price tags still attached,
and unopened sealed boxed computer & A/V gear which had years ago become discontinued.

What cousins didn't need, I gave away as much as possible to any charities willing to send a van to collect,
other tenants in the building, and on the last day of the deadline, complete strangers passing by outside.

Thousands of pounds of original retail price, frittered and unused.


But our house still ended up with a few carloads of personal belongings, unplayed CDs/DVDs/cassettes;
and several large boxes & bin bags of document paperwork which still need to be thoroughly sifted through.

My hoard is now hidden and relegated in priority under siblings stuff.

I dread the prospect of clearing out my mum's house when the time comes;
because I'm getting older, fatter, and gradually losing the strength and agility
needed for shifting fridges, cookers, & furniture,
and climbing ladders up to the attic.....

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 01:32 PM

if you are a landlord, protect yourself. they will scare away other tenants, some will attract rodents, they will not let repairpeople in. I recommend getting words in your rental agreement to the extent that the law will allow saying how much a person can bring in initially and how much they can add to it. Especially if they are dumpster divers, pick up things off the street etc. You could have an awful bedbug problem. Any used upholstered furniture or bedding is a problem. I don't know how to solve it but you must screen for this, and it is a mental condition so anti-discrimination laws probably apply. It does them no good to have unlimited space for their problem. There need to be limits set and followed. Certainly monthly inspections. Certainly access for repairs. If there are children, there is a child neglect/abuse situation brewing...it is a very unhealthy condition for children to grow up in.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 03:02 PM

I decided that minimalism was the way to go when I realized I was still in possession of a book that said, "Someday, man will reach the moon." That was back in 2005. I offered everything to anyone who wanted it. Then I threw the rest in recycle or garbage. Since then, I save very little in the way of worldly things. I don't need the headaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 04:07 PM

'I'll read that article later - when I've more time'.'I'll read that article later - when I've more time'.

I sometimes get them in the shape of pages from the papers, currently the I and the EDP. These days, I normally just look for the puzzle pages (although I don't do the I criptic and usually print of the Guardian on a Moday when it's usually Rufus) but sometimes parents spot an article that might be of interest to me. I'm ashamed to say that with this particular one, I'm probably better at the disposal then I am at the getting round to reading,

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 06:08 AM

Some event has changed how they perceive things, usually a death or abandonment according to those who treat such things.

Oh dear! My father died when I was 9 months old. Was sent to boarding school at 7 - actually an orphanage - you only have to lose one parent to be a orphan. Though we did the normal term and home in the holidays cycle.

Does that excuse me? Or are my glands to blame?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 10:38 AM

Mr. Red, I know that I held onto a lot of family things from my great aunt's estate because they were a way to learn about the family. Books, letters, I still have those things, but there were items from around the house that had belonged to different people.

My father was estranged from his mother's family and his father's family knew of this and weren't happy about it. I made connections with those relatives after my parents' divorce and wrote to them for years. When I was old enough to visit, I did, and they told me stories about the family, often time with mnemonic devices such as pieces of furniture or objects, and I tried to hold onto those.

There was a cherry buffet I'd liked to have had, that one aunt told me about, but another cousin wanted it. When I asked her about it she said she assumed it was part of a set, but I told her no, and told her the story and even found the Yankee magazine issue that started the earlier conversation. They offered a kit to make a new model just like the original in the dining room, the first nice piece of furniture her father bought after immigrating in the 1850s. A story handed down, and now was shared across generations.

Sorting out what to keep and what not - it is difficult. I don't have the piece, but I still have the story and remember what it looks like, and I've told that story to my children, so even without having it, there is some history preserved.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 11:35 AM

"Sorting out what to keep and what not - it is difficult."

Yes, it's the endless decision making which can be exhausting. That's why I was ruthless when it came to disposing of my books. If I hadn't been ruthless, I would still be sat here trying to decide which ones to keep - and the house would still be a shitty mess!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 12:29 PM

we also need to ruthlessly shut off the part of the brain which nags insidiously..

"this might be worth a lot of money one day to specialist collectors....."

I managed to do that a few year ago when in one manic clear out
I recycled a long high wall of heavy boxes
of musty smelling music, photography and cinema magazines;
that had accumulated and accompanied me over 25 years
and relocations from the south west to the north, back to the south west,
to London, then back home to the south west again......

Then I just stopped buying magazines all together.

Trouble is all that home space I reclaimed soon enough more than filled back up again
with a wall of guitar amps and speakers...

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 03:11 PM

That "worth a lot of money" internal script is a strong one, pfr. No denying it. Doing some pricing on eBay is a pretty good remedy. You can sell the things that have value (and are worth the trouble of packing and shipping) and donate the rest, or sell locally.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 03:54 PM

"Trouble is all that home space I reclaimed soon enough more than filled back up again with a wall of guitar amps and speakers..."

Well, at least you can count them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 08:09 PM

Donna, you have my wholehearted sympathy. Here, there are two of us. I've got a collection of piles of books - they are all wanted, I was leaned on hard last year and took 11 bags to Oxfam in one day, and others after- plus the debris of 25 years of self-employment and another lot from a longago hobby of model trains, before the kids (who are in their 30s now). But my Wife is even worse- she's into Recyclng (definitely Capitalised) except it never leaves the house. And her late father's possesions. And all the kids' toys and books, and hers from 50s childhood including the inevitable black doll. And that chest full of memorabilia that was plonked in the bedroom when we moved here 25 years ago, has never been opened, and never will be (hide and seek anyone?). And the rest.

Now the question is, are you unhappy with it, or merely unhappy with the way you think other people see it? Be true to yourself, even if it offends some people who think untidyness equates with moral turpitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 09:40 PM

I don't suppose anyone has ever walked into what I found when I was designated to clear our mother's home of 28 years. (I'm sure some have!) Four BR, each with large walk in closet; there were paths through the piles. I was told, when I phoned my bro in despair, that others had already removed 17 garbage bags of stuff.

"Don't you throw away a single piece of paper." I didn't: I spent 3 weeks going through interminable piles of junk mail, cash register receipts, personal letters, newspapers, magazines.... "junk, junk, personal,junk, junk, junk...." Every piece of paper that had ever entered that house was still there! I took station wagon loads to dumpsters, put garbage bags full in a neighbour's garage. Found my father's suits in one of the walk in closets; he had died 20 years earlier; someone could have used them.

A few students helped load a 24 foot U haul truck. As we neared the end, she asked, "What about the cellar?" I never went down there. I gave up. I drove us back to Pennsylvania where her 2nd husband was in the VA hospital with Alzheimer's. I got on a bus and returned to my peaceful home in Ontario. My poor brother put everything in storage and gradually managed to disappear stuff. His second wife never saw what I saw. She complains about him being a pack rat. HE should have been the one to clear mother's house; just possibly it might have helped cure him.

I have about 4 file boxes of my personal archives. I am mindful of not wanting my children to have to deal with "mother's stuff" - not like I did!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 04:59 PM

Dorothy, your mother sounds like my mother. After she died, I helped my father clear the enormous house where they had lived for 18 years. There were parts of the cellar where I had not seen the floor since about 1966, and a whole room down there (the door was behind the furnace) that I had not known about -- it was full of bundled Time magazines and stacked firewood.

Emptying that house took me four months of hard labour, many trips to the dump, and an estate sale that the local antique dealers were still talking about five years later.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 08:27 AM

Ah, Charmion! WOW!!!

Then there was the woman for whom I was a caregiver for just over a year. When she died, the "kids" hired someone to do an "estate sale" in her small 3 BR home. None of us realized quite what the situation was: 2 of the three bedrooms were so full there were not even paths, two sheds and - WHERE was all this stuff. It was like the old joke about people coming out of a VW beetle.

But much worse and NO joke at all. She had bought stuff - that junk mail? She ordered stuff. Mostly she did not even know she had. Packages would come.... Finally I started asking her, Did she want.... Finally I took one back to the post office and conferred with the post mistress. Yes, if it were unopened, we could just write "return to sender on it". So, did you order this? I don't remember. Back it went to the PO.

It was not, as we joked, "She never saw a piece of kitch she did not love!" It was, she had no idea what she was doing. She was bright, with a clear mind but she did not have any idea...

Her kids had no idea. This unopened stuff - years of it - was tucked away everywhere! Two weekends of "Estate sale" got rid of most of the "good stuff". The kids kept saying, "I never saw this before!??" Then I did a few weekends of yard sale, then "Please just take it!" Then a truck load for each of two thrift shops. Then the house was fit to be sold.

Heirs beware! The time, if you can manage it, is early on. Gee, Mom/Dad, what IS all this stuff? Would you like me to.... I found a place on line where I could cancel almost every catalog!!!! Catalog companies prey on the weak and elderly. I developed a full blown contempt for them, esp those not on the online site. If I had to phone to cancel, the poor phone answerer was blasted with my fury. How dare they not have an easier way to cancel!

That poor woman did not mean to hoard. She was too nice to say "no".

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 11:29 AM

Dorothy, I did that for a friend a couple of times in her lifetime. She was housebound, injured at work and on a low level of Social Security, yet the money seemed to trickle through her fingers to the mail order folks. A three bedroom house was packed. I insisted we had to make it a safe place for her and worked on it once on my own, and a few years later when it was packed again others helped. It made it easier for her oldest daughter who was to manage her estate, such as it was.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 06:26 PM

I got better - but I still avoid used book- and clothing stores. I'm not allowed more books than shelves or more clothes than hangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 07:32 PM

more clothes than hangers. ????

I have my grandparent's wardrobe, a lovely 1920's solid wooden wardrobe with limited space bought by a house painter & clerk when they married.

So I bought 2 of these 5 tier shirt hanger - one for long sleeved t-shirts, the other for summer shirts!

and unfortunately I do have books on the floor - 1 pile from each local Library + others that have no shelves to sit on.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:26 AM

"Now the question is, are you unhappy with it, or merely unhappy with the way you think other people see it? Be true to yourself, even if it offends some people who think untidyness equates with moral turpitude."

I'm not sure if it's as simple as that. Let's face it, most people DO care about what others think of them; not caring - or pretending not to care - can easily lead to social isolation.

Another advantage of having less clutter is that it's much easier to keep the house clean and less dusty. I've found that, after de-cluttering, I have now developed routines for keeping it reasonably clean and tidy - it's no longer a monumental and impossible task!

Min you, I don't suppose that I will ever reach the other end of the spectrum - OCD (Obsessive Cleaning Disorder)! That can't be much fun either!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 09:08 AM

Clearing up someone else's mountainous hoards is made even more unpleasant
when multiple cat ownership is involved.

Fortunately my sibling had only one cat,
and the worse 'surprise' I encountered was a plush lined electric guitar case reeking of stale piss.

My mum [in her 80s] now has the cat [which is about 18 - 20 years old],
so who knows what's to be found under the beds in her house...???

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 11:11 PM

My father never threw away the box for any electronic device or the styrofoam supports that came with it, so after he died I was able to find the packaging for all of the electronic gadgets he'd bought over the years. This wasn't necessarily a good thing, but it made transporting stuff for his heirs easier. He had a storage shed that was about 3x the size of his house (on a very pricey beach). He just lived there; now the house is updated by the person who purchased it to represent a beach lifestyle. If he'd lived in the house that it is today, he probably wouldn't have kept all of the cardboard and styrofoam. One hopes.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 11 Mar 15 - 10:10 AM

Today I have space to set up my knitting machines so I can make things for my family faster than hand knitting. During the sorting I have found lots of cones of yarn, so all my sorting and throwing away has been rewarded.

I was not a shopper, but I have not had therapy, I just made the conscious decision to reclaim space. It is strange to have to argue with yourself over throwing away something which you don't really need, but you want it so much. I've found that one day later it is forgotten.

I have needed to work out how to create enough space to get to cupboards and drawers so they can be emptied out and used properly. There is a sort of domino effect. Just being able to put away the laundry can have startling consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 15 - 10:25 AM

My grandad was a rather spartan old army man.
His attitude was "if you've not used something for over 5 years, you don't need it, so get rid of it".

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Mar 15 - 02:11 AM

"His attitude was "if you've not used something for over 5 years, you don't need it, so get rid of it"."

I took a similar approach to drastically thinning my library. It occurred to me that if I lived to be 500, I would never get round to reading them all!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Mar 15 - 10:51 AM

Been nearly 30 years in the same house, and just accumulated stuff from:
ourselves
2 children, one of whom has still a lot his stuff here.
4 parents (RIP)
Contents of our workplace offices brought home when we both retired: some of it is confidential so will need to be shredded.
Books everywhere, including now some titles in triplicate from said sources, but himself cannot decide which 2 of the 3 copies to part with! As for the rest " I might want to read them again"!
All the LPs, cassettes, video-cassettes and CDs we have ever bought - and still have the equipment to play them on! Pictures have also multiplied exponentially.
Himself just will not throw anything away so the garage is full of broken things he would repair, odd bits of piping and wood, that "might come in useful": can't remember when we last got the car in there. Loft space too.
30 years ago we had no computers, but at least now I rarely get photos printed. Ah yes, all this old photo albums too.
All those clothes that no longer fit, but "when I lose weight" they might!
Despite all this, I try to keep the place acceptably tidy and clean - "organised chaos" being the modus operandi.
Having too much of a ball since retiring to spend days sorting stuff out!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 15 - 07:35 PM

Tattie, it sounds so familiar!

I'd suggest giving a passing thought to those kids - how much are they going to want to sort through? Maybe just decide on one thing you want to do to start, because revisiting some of these collections can be very interesting. I'd suggest shredding the papers first - that can be entertaining and it looks productive when you cart the volume of paper out of the house once it has been through the shredder.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 09:46 AM

Oh, yes; the cross-cut shredder. Every house should have one, and don't think I'm kidding.

Here in Ottawa, we have paper recycling. Every two weeks, the waste-paper baskets are emptied into a big blue bin with the fortnight's accumulation of newspapers and magazines, and the whole thing goes out to the curb, where it sits for hours.

Have you ever thought about the amount of sensitive personal information there is in some of the stuff you pitch into the waste-paper basket? The counterfoil from the credit-card bill that you routinely pay on line, for example, has your account number and your name and address -- just what your friendly neighbourhood fraudster needs to steal a piece of your identity. Bank statement, likewise.

Every month or so, I put a paper bag of shreddies out with the newspapers and toilet rolls.

Recently, my sister-in-law had to clear out the boxes of family papers that had accumulated in her basement -- something like three generations' worth. I took the shredder over to her house, and she filled something like six tall garden-waste bags with shreddies before she was done.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 11:49 AM

Any sensitive paper is shredded, and I pour water or whatever grease drippings are handy into the resulting bag to make it a sodden mess, and that goes to the trash, it doesn't go to the recycling. I also put the shreds inside something else so it isn't apparent that it is a bag of sodden shreds.

Mine isn't a cross cut shredder, but one if these days if I see one for a reasonable price I'll pick it up. (Garage sales are good for that kind of stuff, and soon we'll be in the season.) As it is I have two regular shredders, one in my office, one in the kitchen, both places where papers get shredded. The kitchen one is where I open bills and solicitations to the kids to open expensive credit card accounts (they are in or have just graduated from university, so are seen as prime candidates. Even after "opt out" listings, the solicitations continue.) Do you know that those things now come with a convenient code so if you don't want to mail in the form with your name preprinted on it that you can log on and enter the code? These things are dangerous for anyone just starting out establishing credit. I had to harangue the bank with angry messages several times before they stopped mailing me pre-printed credit card account "checks" with my statements.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 04:31 PM

My sink is clean and I am washing milk bottles and putting them out for collection.

Why I find it so hard to return milk bottles is beyond me, but now I am doing it.

OK - I have managed two lots, but it is a start.

Along with the milk bottles I am doing the dishes. I am putting things away. The mental exertion required is ridiculous, but every clean dish and pan is a battle won.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 07:07 PM

well done!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 03:01 AM

I have a small 'hand-driven' shredder in my kitchen. I use it to shred any debit/credit card receipts. I also remove/tear-off my name and address details from any envelopes, before I re-cycle them, and shred those bits of paper. The contents of the shredder then regularly go into my compost bin along with the usual kitchen waste.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 05:55 PM

Composting shredded paper is good. It also makes excellent fire starter if one has a wood stove.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a hoarder? House a mess?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 06:12 PM

a local pet shop also likes shredded paper & promises their animals will not read it!