BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns

Subject: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 07:57 AM

Just when you thought the world couldn't get more nuts:



Utah Lawmakers Vote to Allow Firing Squad
SALT LAKE CITY — Mar 11, 2015, 12:48 AM ET

By KELLY CATALFAMO and MICHELLE L. PRICE Associated Press

Lawmakers have passed a bill that would make Utah the only state to allow firing squads for carrying out a death penalty if there is a shortage of execution drugs.

The passage of the bill by the state Senate on Tuesday comes as states struggle to obtain lethal injection drugs amid a nationwide shortage.

The bill's sponsor, Republican Rep. Paul Ray of Clearfield, touted the measure as being a more humane form of execution. Ray argued that a team of trained marksmen is faster and more humane than the drawn-out deaths that have occurred in botched lethal injections.

The bill gives Utah options, he said. "We would love to get the lethal injection worked out so we can continue with that but if not, now we have a backup plan," Ray told The Associated Press.

Opponents, however, said firing squads are a cruel holdover from the state's wild West days and will earn the state international condemnation. "I think Utah took a giant step backward," said Ralph Dellapiana, director of Utahns for Alternatives to the Death Penalty. He called firing squads "a relic of a more barbaric past."

Utah is one of several states to seek out new forms of capital punishment after a botched Oklahoma lethal injection last year and one in Arizona that took nearly two hours for the condemned man to die. Legislation to allow firing squads has been introduced in Arkansas this year. In Wyoming, a measure to allow firing squads if the lethal drugs aren't available died. In Oklahoma, lawmakers are considering legislation that would allow the state to use nitrogen gas to execute inmates.

Whether Ray's proposal will become law in Utah, a conservative state, is unclear: Utah Gov. Gary Herbert, a Republican, won't say if he'll sign the measure. His spokesman, Marty Carpenter, did issue a statement this week acknowledging that the method would give Utah a legitimate backup method if execution drugs are unavailable.

Utah American Civil Liberties Union representative Anna Brower said the organization is still holding out hope that Herbert will not sign the bill. The legislation would make Utah "look backwards and backwoods," she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:24 AM

Keep banging the rocks together.

Isn't it ironic that on Mudcat, its Americans who "moderate" the behaviour of Europeans?

😎

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:28 AM

Given a choice between electrocution and a firing squad, I would go with the bullet. Quick and efficent.
Now lets debate the merits of a death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:39 AM

The state of Utah is probably doing this in honor of the centennial of its judicial murder of Joe Hill (Joel Hägglund) on 19 November, 1915.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/27/us/27hill.html?pagewanted=all

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:44 AM

If they can't get execution drugs, wouldn't this be a good time to abandon the barbarity of state-sponsored murder and join European nations in the 21st century?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:45 AM

It was always there as an option to the condemned. It is also an unused option in Idaho and some other States.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:48 AM

Joe Hill

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:53 AM

It took the UK two thousand years to abolish the death penalty. The Americans have been at it for about four hundred years. They do have a ways to go. I expect they'll catch up in the next sixteen hundred years.

For cost efficiency, plastic bags over the head. They could be recycled, too. Always trying to be helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 09:38 AM

Q: If states insist on killing people by lethal injection, why not do away with the crap they're using and just administer massive overdoses of heroin?

A: Because heroin is illegal and, therefore, immoral! States can't use an immoral substance for a highly moral purpose like an execution!

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 09:41 AM

Beheading ?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 10:08 AM

An important factor in today's widespread loathing for capital punishment is that somebody has to do the deed, and our modern societies lack untouchables who can be forced to undertake such heinous work. The firing squad dodges this problem with a cute little tradition: one of the rifles -- no one is supposed to know which -- is loaded with blank rounds, so all the shooters can choose to believe, privately, that they are not personally responsible for the death.

Me, I think that no servant of the state should be expected to do work that I would refuse to do myself on moral grounds. I know I can attain a fairly high standard of marksmanship with an ordinary military rifle, so I have actually thought this through. I can understand why so many jurisdictions in the United States have retained capital punishment, and why so many Canadians would support the return of the noose (we never went in for the fancy stuff). But I sincerely wonder just how many sentences could be carried out without great difficulty in locating capable executioners?

Utah firing squads are traditionally made up of prison officers, if I recall correctly. Like police and military personnel, modern correctional staff (not prison guards any more) are far more professionalized than their predecessors of even a generation ago, when Gary Gilmore was executed by firing squad in Utah. Could prison officers trained to be case managers and supervisors of rehabilitation programs bring themselves to shoot down a restrained prisoner, even one condemned to die?

I know plenty of soldiers who couldn't, and wouldn't, do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 10:09 AM

And then there was the guy who was transporting trained seals over a state line for immoral porpoises.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 10:23 AM

look at this way.....if they're busy shooting people , at least they're not knocking on your door.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 11:27 AM

T-Bird, is it absolutely necessary for you to PROVE time and time again that you're an idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: olddude
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 11:27 AM

Imagine the entertainment value if they just threw them off a building. People could take bets on what part hits first

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 11:30 AM

Of course not. That would be barbaric.

They would shout "Heads or tails".

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 12:00 PM

Hanging  

Regardless of the form, and appearances, IMO, the various forms of capital punishment mostly have the same result. In fact, I may be more beneficial to openly show it for what it is, mostly vengeance (versus deterrence) - rather than sanitizing it through drug injection.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 12:35 PM

I take back the comment about banging the rocks together.

After all, we can't take any moral high ground whilst Terribulus is scraping his knuckles into threads... yeah, sadly, our education system slips the odd one through the net too...

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 01:12 PM

Treat the condemned with dignity.
Give them a glass of brandy and a cigar, and a pistol loaded with only one bullet.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 01:19 PM

Oddly enough, those facing capital punishment are often placed on suicide watch before they are executed. Coukd it be to ensure the executioner is not let down?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 01:21 PM

Well, don't do anything that would get you a ticket!
Dead is dead.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 01:57 PM

"Dead is dead", except in Oklahoma;)

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 04:05 PM

No death penalty.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 04:28 PM

in the land of the latter day saints
they do folks in, in a way that's quaint
don't need a gurney or needle in Utah
Just a chair and the old six shooter

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 05:40 PM

Actually, rifles are used. Five, if I remember aright...four with bullets and one with a blank, preloaded and then mixed up by someone who didn't do the loading. Utah, with a Mormon majority, originally believed in the idea of "blood atonement." The LDS Church tossed this idea along with polygamy, but there may still be (probably are) those in Utah who believe it and want to show their "repentance and salvation" by shedding their blood.

I guess it beats Saudi Arabia's beheading and crucifixion as death penalties....

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:11 PM

Five, if I remember aright...four with bullets and one with a blank...

Yep. All ya gotta do, Rap, is count the holes in Hill's chest in the photo, above.

I guess it beats Saudi Arabia's beheading and crucifixion as death penalties

How so?

And it ain't just the Latter Day Saints that push "blood atonement" by any stretch.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 08:16 PM

yeh i knew it was rifles - just poetic licence. i had mine revoked a while back.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 01:21 AM

Call it puerile fascination but I was reading an article on this subject where some of those interviewed were discussing the alternatives on the basis they agreed with state murder as a concept.

Rather chilling from our vantage point;










Civilisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 02:25 AM

I do get fed up with people who go on about how abolition of the death penalty is a mark of 'civilisation'. The ancient Jews, Chinese, Greeks, Romans, &c were all 'civilised'. There has been 'civilisation', in any reasonable definition of the term, throughout Europe and most of Asia, for thousands of years.

Yet until, at earliest the late-18C/early-19C, not one of these 'civilisations' ever even suggested a legal, judicial, forensic system which did not include capital punishment for certain specified offences; and it was C20 before any such actually came into existence ANYWHERE.

It seems to me the height of arrogant self-regard to postulate our own particular fashionable-for-the-nonce set of practice and principle as being the only modus vivendi worthy of the "civilisation" sobriquet; and to deny the epithet to such states as still retain cap-pun -- are not Malaysia or the United States, or any of the Middle-Eastern bloc who top people like there's no tomorrow, to be admitted to the fellowship of the 'civilised', then?

Oh, shut up!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 03:24 AM

Notwithstanding that one word can, according to that lass on Countdown, have multiple or abstracted meanings. Hence the word "Civilisation" to mean a subjective view of your society's standing. As in "act in a civilised manner" or "be civil to your newsagent and don't enquire as to the whereabouts of his nephew "

Get nurse to explain it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 03:35 AM

One of the problems with the English invasions of Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries was the difference in philosophy on how society should approach murder.
(I'm writing about this at the moment, part of a book I'm working on, so it's at the forefront of my mind.)
In Ireland, the Brehon Laws, like the Scandinavian law of the time, required that an 'Eiric' be paid by the extended family of the murderer to the family of the victim.
This was a pretty good method of stopping a) murder and b) vengeance, because it spread the responsibility out, and caused the family to put pressure on their errant member.
In England, then suffering the religious mania of the Reformation, the attitude was that a murder was an offence against God, and under the biblical injunction "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", it should be "a life for a life", and the murderer should himself or herself be killed.
It seems strange to me that the religious idea is still current 600 years later.
State execution is not an effective way of stopping murders, and seems an odd method to use; it's a bad example. If the state's a murderer, how does that make murder wrong.
If Utah wanted to end murder, the best way would be to study what states (by which I mean countries, of course) have the least murder, and what they have in common.
Of course, we're not even getting into the question of countries like China and Indonesia which execute people for things like smuggling and fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 08:11 AM

The ancient Jews, Chinese, Greeks, Romans, &c were all 'civilised'.

Um - but that was then and this is now. But what's a few thousand years, eh?

And then, there's civilization.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 09:00 AM

The Carthaginian civilisation sacrificed their first born children. The Aztec civiisation waged war to get prisoners to sacrifice to the sun god. The Roman civilisation crucified all the slaves belonging to a master who had been murdered by one of them. The Jewish civilisation executed women for adultery. The European civilisation of the 16th and 17th centuries had thousands of people burned as witches. Civilisation is an incremental thing, and what was best practice then is unacceptable now. Ragusa in the 16th century had the death penalty, but it was inflicted extremely infrequently. The executioner was recruited from elsewhere, the city shut down for the day and citizens remained at home, and after the sentence was carried out, the executioner was paid handsomely, sent home, and ordered never to return. That was a shinig exemplar for then.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 09:07 AM

And now the state of Utah, full of nutty mormons, will be no better than IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 09:11 AM

Looking at the world we have created, we are in no position to judge what's meant by civilization. And certainly the people who could bring it about are by and large making an economic killing off it. When movie people mean more than the guy or gal who grow the oats we eat, we have a problem Houston.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Stu
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 11:16 AM

Beautiful state Utah though. Zion is a truly incredible place, the desert is wonderful and the paleontological sites are fantastic.

"and it was C20 before any such actually came into existence ANYWHERE"

Abolishing state murder means more than proclaiming your credentials as a civilised society (a hypocrisy that most cannot afford to expose). It does however show that a society has started down the road to acknowledging killing people, however unpleasant and applying their crimes, is not the way to deal with them and collectively we're not going to condone further human suffering.

In this respect abolition of the death penalty is similar to the abolition of slavery; it's a fundamental rejection of a certain mindset. Just because it's always been done that way doesn't make it right, and stopping state murder and kidnapping, selling and owning human beings is one way of expressing a deeper compassion and desire for a better, more progressive society.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: pdq
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 11:52 AM

In the US, 32 states have a functioning system for capital punishment.

We have 50 states, despite Obama's claim that there are 57.

Of the other 18 states, only 5 have enacted the ban in the correct way. That is, by having it proposed and passed by the House, approved by the Senate and signed (into law) by the state's Executive.

The other 13 states are in some form of disfuction due to judicial activism. Having two or three activist judges throw out an initiative that was passed buy 80% of the voters is tyrany, plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 11:54 AM

I have a theory © that Gary Gilmore holds the record as the US's greatest serial killer…
Oh, wait, I'm not including warmonging presidents in that. But outside of them.

… because by breaking the constitutional ban on execution as "cruel and unusual punishment", his lawsuit allowed states to kill people ad lib for decades afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 01:09 PM

judicial activism.

Ah, yes, that old shibboleth, PeeDee. Of course, when that "activism" benefits the conservative, fundagelical Tea Party knuckledragger agenda, that's perfectly OK with you, innit?

Different day, same BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: John P
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 03:32 PM

Having two or three activist judges throw out an initiative that was passed buy 80% of the voters is tyrany, plain and simple.

You may want to consider reading the Constitution and/or taking a jr. high school civics class. Or, put another way, what percentage of the voters in the south were in favor of slavery before the Civil War?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 04:56 PM

No chance, John. PeeDee lives in a fact-free environment, and has always been proud of the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 05:03 PM

salt lake city
a town without pity
they wear funny underwear
tie folks to chair
so they don't think of sin
when they're doing you in.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: olddude
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 08:37 PM

It is just so wrong. I cannot understand why it still continues. It is revenge that is all it is and a great society should not be in the revenge business. Just so sad it still continues

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 02:39 AM

Musket (click), while it's true that most of the people who moderate Mudcat are Americans, I don't think any of them support capital punishment.

So, your point is what?

Moral: even liberals should judge individuals as individuals, not by their nationality or race or gender preference or religion. To do otherwise is called "prejudice," a vice even ever-so-politically-correct liberals may be guilty of at times.

-Joe, Radical Moderate-

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 02:55 AM

Not so surprising really, in a nation that's perfectly happy to allow its citizens to have the right, and means, to unilaterally choose to inflict the death penalty without trial on another citizen who breaks into their home to steal the TV, or who 'looked funny, like he might attack me ', or who is a black youth walking through a 'white neighbourhood', or any number of other feeble excuses.

You live in a very violent society, that permits it's citizens the means to inflict extreme and lethal violence. It's hardly a surprise, therefore, that your authorities treat offenders with extreme and lethal violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 02:56 AM

That was a reply to oldude, Joe, not to your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 03:01 AM

Then again, Backwoodsman, opinions in the U.S. on Capital Punishment, Gun Control, and a number of other things are close to an even split. If just a few more voters would see things my way, the United States would be a Shining Beacon of Justice for the Nations.

As it is, we look rather like savages....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 03:22 AM

Not savages Joe, I've spent time there (admittedly only Texas) and been very happy, although I was always nervous walking the streets of an evening, and seeing cops with guns scared me to death.

But I can't help but feel that there's a correlation between the gun-culture over there and the continued belief in the death-penalty.

What I do find especially uncivilised, though, is the length of time that those sentenced to death can languish on death-row. In many cases, while awaiting the result of appeals etc., they serve an equivalent prison sentence to that which a murderer would receive in Europe, and then are put to death at the end of that time. Now that is truly inhumane, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:27 AM

My stereotyping was with a purpose.

We all have laws and practice that not all agree with.

But killing prisoners transcends peculiarities and different approaches. It marks a country out on the scale of decency. The position on the scale for The USA somewhat precludes the self appointed exporting of values.

Is the place run from Washington or Hollywood? Buggered if I can tell the difference.

We only have one law that is a stain on the principle of civilised behaviour. The established church (and no other) is allowed to discriminate on sexual orientation and deny them a marriage service, and can sack gay employees for getting married.

You will notice that rather than accept it, all three Muskets, of which only one of us is gay, tend to shout about injustice rather than say it isn't my fault so stop lumping me with my compatriots.

Back on subject. This Musket helped unearth a doctor over here who had assisted in executions in Kuwait. He was struck off and his visa revoked. Sometimes, shouting just isn't enough. The British Medical Association keeps a list of doctors around the world, including The USA known to be involved in judicial executions. This helps ensure they cannot work in The EU. Australia / NZ or many other countries nor have papers published as their contravention of the hippocratic oath precludes their registration being recognised. Mind you, the list can contain errors and doctors on it have either confirmed their involvement or refused to respond.

You see. you can do something about it. We prosecute firms who supply drugs or other goods for the purpose. We will not extradite people at risk of being killed.

You know, if those opposed to it in The USA got off their arses rather than complain every time more progressive countries look down on them, you might just get somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 08:17 AM

What percentage of USAian people own a passport I wonder ??

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 08:37 AM

, I've spent time there (admittedly only Texas)

TEXAS? Savages, indeed. The state with the most death penalty executions, several times over. AND, the majority of them black.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 10:05 AM

"Over one-third of the population to be exact, or nearly 110 million out of 313 million Americans [own passports]." That's from Forbes in 2012.

I would state however that passports in the US are the property of the Department of State.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 11:42 AM

Well I like guns and hate the death penalty the two are mutually exclusive. Lots of people hunt or target shoot. Big country lots of wilderness.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Mingulay
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 02:16 PM

It seems to me that there is a simple answer to the authorities' dilemma. All they need to do is send a couple of those strange (young ??? ) men in grey suits and EXACTLY 1/4" haircuts to knock on his cell door with a copy of the Book of Mormon. Within a second or two he would be rendered unconscious, swiftly followed by death from terminal boredom. Simple, effective and very, very cheap.

The two young men? No effect, they would still be droning on as the body was removed, not stopping until they were returned to their hole in the salt. As we say over here 'simples'.

No apologies extended.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 02:42 PM

I like guitars Dan. Even though they are apparently used to kill fascists.
😎

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: olddude
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:36 PM

El ka-bong with the guitar Lol

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 10:16 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/16/opinion/death-sentences-with-or-without-a-jury.html?_r=0

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 12:21 PM

In the UK court system, the only person involved in deciding the sentence is the Judge. The jury simply decide on guilt or innocence and have no part in the sentencing decision. That was true also in the bad old days before we got out of the Middle-Ages and abandoned State-Sanctioned Murder as a form of 'justice'.

Exactly as it should be, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:53 PM

If you think that its bad in Utah, just wait until I become World Dictator (any day now). I intend to re-introduce the death penalty for all sorts of things e.g. speeding, dropping litter, using a leaf-blower, being too noisy when using a mobile phone on public transport and just being annoying generally. You have been warned!

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: pdq
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 03:24 PM

Just for the record, Idaho and Utah, the two states with the highest percent Mormon population, are tied for last in per capita murder rate.

At the other extreme, people in Chicago have a 1 in 1800 chance of being murdered in any given year.

Similarly, people in the Mexican state of Chihuahua have a 1 in 1100 chance of being murdered in any given year, despite the total ban on capital punishment in Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 03:32 PM

Actually, though, BWM, until the Homicide Act of 1957 which introduced a separate category of Capital Murder, murder was one of very few offences in UK Law where the trial judge had no discretion, but was mandated to impose the death penalty; which could possibly be overturned on appeal, or the offender could be reprieved by the Home Secretary if any vindicating circumstances should appear.

≈M≈

This purely in interests of accuracy, and not any attempt at moral justification.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 04:53 PM

Atta Boy, PeeDee: kill 'em all & ley Allah sort'em out!

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 04:55 PM

I'm sure you're right Michael (I was only ten years old in 1957, and I was more interested in Dinky Toys than the law! 😄), but my point still stands - that the jury doesn't, and never has, been able to influence sentencing (except insofar as they decide on the guilt or innocence of the accused).

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 05:37 PM

Shimrod for world president? One way of interpreting my horoscope tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 05:19 AM

"The British Medical Association keeps a list of doctors around the world, including The USA known to be involved in judicial executions. This helps ensure they cannot work in The EU. Australia / NZ or many other countries nor have papers published as their contravention of the hippocratic oath precludes their registration being recognised."

Always thought that at all "Judicial" executions the two professions that had to be there by law were a Minister of whatever religion the sentenced belonged to and a Doctor to certify that death actually had occurred - could this mandatory presence be considered as "assisting"?

If Doctors are to be "struck-off" for fulfilling part of a legally sanctioned process what then is the status of Doctors involved with the legally sanctioned Voluntary Euthanasia programmes in Netherlands (Where in certain circumstances involuntary euthanasia is permitted); Belgium; Luxembourg; Switzerland; Estonia; Albania; the U.S. States of Washington, Oregon and Montana and the Canadian Province of Quebec?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 07:11 AM

one is act of humanity, the other is an act of inhumanity.

if your law process can't discriminate - you need some better lawmakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 09:02 AM

Point taken Big Al, I am as anti-capital punishment as it is possible to be, but I think somewhere in Musktwats narrative the Hippocratic oath was mentioned, the original version of which stated:

"With regard to healing the sick, I will devise and order for them the best diet, according to my judgment and means; and I will take care that they suffer no hurt or damage.

Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

Further, I will comport myself and use my knowledge in a godly manner.

I will not cut for the stone, but will commit that affair entirely to the surgeons."

Not of course legally binding and not commonly sworn these days the Declaration of Geneva I believe is more commonly used.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 11:17 AM

its an odd business - when moral decisions conflict with professional decisions.

for example - could s Jehovah's witness be a doctor. how could you function if you didn't believe in blood transfusions.

similarly Mormons believe in an eye for an eye - one told me at least. and they had no problem with capital punishment

i can remember an earnest discussion in The Friend when i was a young Quaker - as to whether you could be a cop and a Quaker. my father was both.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: pdq
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 11:32 AM

The Church of LDS (Mormon) is absolutely neutral on the issue of capital punishment.

It is strictly a matter left to the Civil Code that applies to any given jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,A Musket
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 11:41 AM

The General Medical Council, who holds my professional registration provides guidance to their interpretation of aspects of the Hippocratic Oath. Similarly, registration bodies in many other countries run in concordat.

The declaration of Geneva and other similar stances provide interpretation and guidance to what is a translation of ancient Greek standards and practices. My copy of the oath is indeed in Ancient greek, and as I can't read it, it is purely something for the office wall, together with a dried oak leaf from the tree on Kos that Hippocrates didn't preach from.

The term Hippocratic Oath is a guide. The GMC guidelines and responsibilities are what the term refers to. Terribulus either knows this and is using his usual "try to make a Musket look a twat" again or is ignorant of it, in which case he might have said so.

My good friend Musket was involved in ridding these shores of someone who assisted in executions in Kuwait and I am rather proud to call him a friend for his overall work in helping raise standards in healthcare, especially governance and assurance, using his background as a retired CEO in industry.

What I do know from reading of the Kuwait case is this; The doctor left the country prior to a fitness to practice hearing writing to voluntarily remove himself from the specialist register, saving a drawn out hearing. The GMC case was to be based on the following activities;

Declaring a person to be medically fit enough for execution.

Prescribing sedatives to a level consistent with the Kuwaiti penal code that a prisoner must still be aware of what is happening.

Counter signing the "drop calculations" for the rope length to ensure maximum chance of successful fracture of 2nd & 3rd cervical vertebrae.

Pronouncing the prisoner dead is not an issue, although anticipation of an otherwise healthy person dying and being assigned to declare death at the appropriate point before the execution could be construed as assisting in an execution.

Terribulus is wrong to say that none of this is legally binding, as the principle of the Hippocratic Oath runs a thread through our registration and to touch a patient for purposes that require a doctor without legal registration is assault, a criminal offence.

Why he insists in trying to ridicule those who point out his own shortcomings is not what this thread is about, but for those who laugh at him, I believe this is a good opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 11:55 AM

From a CJCLDS online publication:

"Capital Punishment

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regards the question of whether and in what circumstances the state should impose capital punishment as a matter to be decided solely by the prescribed processes of civil law. We neither promote nor oppose capital punishment."

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 12:27 PM

Well, Guest#, I believe 'em.

Thousands wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 12:30 PM

They should be ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 12:35 PM

Revealed, no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 01:41 PM

'Why he insists in trying to ridicule those who point out his own shortcomings..........'

possibly cos its bloody irritating to have ones shortcomings pointed out....I have found.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 02:00 PM

I used to lengthen my short cummings by thinking of Marmite being scraped onto Ryvita.

There again, Al, you don't pour over Internet hits to desperately find things to cast doubt on whatever a select few post. Mainly because said select few question Terribulus's suspect "sources" that inform his posts regarding Palestine, terrorism, WW1 culpability and immigration.

If he insists on sharing his odious outlook, he shouldn't be surprised when others share their disappointment that someone presumably clever and erudite uses his talent for unfortunate propogation of views that fall below any respectable yardstick.

And for the purpose of clarification, this is Ian giving his view on some of the reasons Mudcat threads fall short of interest. Also another reason why Musket is three people with different views and opinions. Confuses only those who prefer to prejudge. Trust me..

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 02:16 PM

As Musktwats could be at least one of three people I won't bother responding to anything that they say. As a practice on any forum I think one posting name having multiple contributors basically sucks - it is as about as cowardly as it can get, not only do they "gang up" they also post as multiple posters which I thought was forbidden on this forum.

But we have one Musktwat - the gay medical one??? - I don't know, it all gets terribly confusing - gleefully explaining how he has robbed a perfectly well qualified Doctor of his living for doing what he possibly had no choice in. That Doctor is barred from working in the EU for doing something that involved ending a life through due process of law, while other Doctors operating a service aimed at the ending of a life which is perfectly legal in some EU member states, but illegal in others - has the medically qualified Musktwat shouted out about them and got them "Struck-off"? - If not why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 03:23 PM

no its not confusing. you know as well as i do its ian. ex-miner, now hobnobs with posh folk and serves on committees (mines a large one!)

and ian - you know as well as i do that Terribus is politically slightly to the right of Benito Mussolini. He would have followed Earl Haigh over the top and into the chateau wine cellar. he thought the peace process in NI would start once the Sinn Fein admitted they were blood thirsty savages with nothing much to moan about.

he's against capital punishment. that's good - he's with us on this one. we need allies on this one. so stop kicking up shit about some demarkation dispute - who does what. who cares if the doctor or the bleeding window cleaner does the killing.
the important thing is to stop the killing. what happened in England was fantastic.

wise government faced down a right wing press and a largely inadequately educated public.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 04:23 PM

Interesting. I'm not gay. Musket is though. Musket and Musket are both doctors, but Musket isn't, but he is a doctor. One Musket happens to be gay, two Muskets are medical doctors but only one is practicing and a Musket is a doctor but has never been to medical school and has no clinical qualifications at all.

Terribulus's comments, dragging an irrelevant feature of Musket into it, when Musket isn't gay anyway just serves to show why we share a login. He has a bullying habit of pointing out what he thinks he knows about someone in order to cast doubt on them, especially when he has nothing to add to the debate. I wonder why he pointed out being gay when trying to dismiss me?

Yes, what happened here was fantastic. The civilised world has a fantastic aspect.

Al me old love, I hob nob with all sorts of people. As do you. I wouldn't call Teribus one of us, them or anything else though. His homophobic rant above precludes any recognition of redeeming quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 06:00 PM

In England "practise" is a verb.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 08:25 PM

I don't know, it all gets terribly confusing

Yes, T-Bird, you're easily confused.

We are all of us very well aware of that, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 09:56 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 04:45 AM

Oh I'm sorry Musktwats, but what homophobic rant?? Wasn't it Musktwat who continually bombards us with the fact that he is gay on this forum? Now as in all reasonableness it should be that "what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" (Or I suppose in his case what is sauce for the gander is sauce for the gander) If he, or any of the other Musktwats, can say he is gay, then so can I and if he wishes to ram his sexuality, in which I and I dare say every other person on this forum have got absolutely no effin' interest in at all, in our faces, then neither he nor any other of the Musktwats can find any ground for complaint if someone else brings it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 05:59 AM

teribus - you obviously have an opinion on this subject. lets forget neighbourhood poofwatch and talk about capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 06:37 AM

Sorry for the diversion Al, but if someone accuses me of something I am innocent of then I think it perfectly in order for me to defend myself.

On capital punishment I have been anti ever since I heard Hamish Imlach sing "The Ballad of Timothy Evans", and took the trouble to look into his case. The verse that really hit home was:

"Tim Evans he went to the drop,
For a crime he did not do.
It was Christie was the murderer
and the Judge and the Jury too"

As for your use of - "poofwatch" God knows what you'll be accused of.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 02:44 PM

I think my good friend Musket has every right to mention he is gay when Terribulus, Akenaton and Keith A Hole of Hertford insist on stigmatising gay people.

Your view on capital punishment is noted, same as your view on the people of Palestine is noted, and people of Asian descent who are British.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 07:22 PM

i never heard Hamish sing that one - what a character though!
nobody much mentions his guitar playing - which i really loved. very neat picker!

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 03:37 AM

Musktwat when exactly has "Terribulus EVER insisted "on stigmatising gay people"?

You all seem to believe that I have, so, among the three of you, you must be able to come up with at least one example, but I would take bets that none of you can.

Agree Al, Hamish was a fantastic performer and a brilliant guitarist, vastly underrated.

The Ballad of Tim Evans
(Ewan MacColl)

Tim Evans was a prisoner,
Fast in his prison cell
And those who read about his crimes,
They damned his soul to hell,
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

For the murder of his own dear wife
And the killing of his own child
The jury found him guilty
And the hangin' judge, he smiled.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

Tim Evans pleaded innocent
And he swore by Him on high,
That he never killed his own dear wife
Nor caused his child to die.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

The governor came in one day
And the chaplain by his side,
Said, "Your appeal has been turned down,
Prepare yourself to die."
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

They moved him out of C-block
To his final flowery dell,
And day and night two screws were there
And they never left his cell.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

Sometimes they played draughts with him
And solo and pontoon,
To stop him brooding on the rope
That was to be his doom.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

They brought his grub in on a tray,
There was eggs and meat and ham,
And all the snout that he could smoke
Was there at his command.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

Tim Evans walked in the prison yard
And the screws, they walked behind;
And he saw the sky above the wall
But he knew no peace of mind.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

They came for him at eight o'clock
And the chaplain read a prayer
And then they marched him to that place
Where the hangman did prepare.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

The rope was fixed around his neck
And a washer behind his ear.
The prison bell was tolling
But Tim Evans did not hear.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

A thousand lags were cursing
And a-banging on the doors;
But Evans couldn't hear them,
He was deaf for ever more.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderer, go down."

They sent Tim Evans to the drop
For a crime he did not do.
It was Christy was the murderer
And the judge and jury too.
   Sayin', "Go down, you murderers, go down."

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 04:21 AM

A few posts ago. When you couldn't say "doctor" but had to say "gay doctor" despite his choice of spouse having no bearing whatsoever on the obligations of doctors regarding curative or palliative practice as opposed to assisting in ending medically fit lives.

Notwithstanding he didn't post the GMC info, I did. This is why we share Musket. It's because of you and your dubious friends who search for chinks in the armour of people in order to minimise the credibility of their posts.

Quoting Ewan MacColl songs is quite ironic. Try some of those he wrote about right wing fools who propagate sycophantic drivel about the military and the establishment. I could see any self-respecting troubadour going away and writing "The Ballad of Accounting" after being entertained with your take on society.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 05:30 AM

Ah but Musktwat you or one of the other two went to great pains to explain that you are all doctors - two medical, one not so how are we supposed to differentiate - as far as I see it we have one non-medical doctor who is also a nouveau riche boor, one gay Doctor and one Doctor - you could of course do what would be normal and stick to three separate identities, but that would ruin your rather cowardly little game wouldn't it? Strange that you can refer to him as the Gay Musket but others cannot.

Sorry about not fitting into your Musktwat stereotype, but I my choice of music is my business not yours, and when it comes to those who "propagate sycophantic drivel about the military"

- tell us all again about those RED TOPS
- tell us how much better WWII Generals were who only lost 10% fatalities than WWI Generals who only lost 10% fatalities

Now I will ask again any of you shouting about getting those Doctors involved with euthanasia struck-off?

Also just as an aside how many got sacked in that West Stafford Hospital you looked into Musktwat? You know the one, the one during the period 2005 to 2008 where you stood a better chance of surviving as a member of a foot patrol in Sangin District, Helmand Province, Afghanistan than going into that hospital's Accident & Emergency Department (British Armed Forces losses between 2001 & 2014 in Afghanistan = 453 - What was the "apparently high mortality rates in patients admitted as emergencies" in the Stafford Hospital A&E between 2005 and 2008? They hadn't got a clue, had they, but they put the "estimate" as high as 1,200 - WOW).

Damn me there I go doing it again, confusing a Musktwat with dates, numbers and facts instead of feeding him his diet of choice - Made Up Shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 05:37 AM

Keith A Hole of Hertford insist on stigmatising gay people.

Made up accusation.
Nasty lie.
If I have ever done such a thing, put up an example.

Confident prediction, you will not because you can not.
You just use personal lying smears to attack people who show up your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 07:39 AM

good song. i heard Ewan sing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Musket
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 08:58 AM

Ditto. Kiveton January 1985.

Terribulus. I just won a pint when I see Musket next. (Two weeks time when I am in London for a concert.). The pint was on your repeating your inability to see the irony of red top when I mixed military police with tabloids in order to laugh at your sources of information (as opposed to considered view, because like Keith, why have an opinion when you can get historians and hacks to provide it for you?)

So.. I point out your using irrelevance to denigrate and you reply by doing it again.

Not much point in laughing at you any more. Your level of intellect is now plain to see and I apologise for treating you as an equal with sinister views. You are just an old man with crossed wires and frustration. Care homes are full of the buggers.

By the way. Only one Musket is a real doctor but he isn't a doctor so keep trying to throw your insults. You can't even work out a piss poorer riddle.

Keith reiterates Akenaton's nasty false interpretation (or the interpretation he cuts and pastes from a well known homophobic Christian website) so is guilty as charged.

I love Mudcat. I keep in touch with old mates, met a few people I first came across here, get involved in some fascinating music discussions and...

I see the fascination now when people paid to laugh at the residents at Bedlam Hospital. We have real people of the sort political comics get so much mileage out of.

Keep it up. Remind us about Israel willing to negotiate a Palestinian state. That was a blinder. (Just try not to read today's newspapers first. Facts only deflect from bigotry) Not nice when people point out irrelevance in a thread designed to embarrass shocking posts in other threads eh Terribulus?

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 09:06 AM

Keith reiterates Akenaton's nasty false interpretation (or the interpretation he cuts and pastes from a well known homophobic Christian website) so is guilty as charged.

Keith has done nothing but quote the annual report, in context, with links, to correct errors in your posts.

why have an opinion when you can get historians and hacks to provide it for you?

It is true that my opinion was formed from studying the findings of the historians of that war.
None support yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 09:38 AM

Getting to the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 09:57 AM

The reports I quoted were HPE and HPA.
I have never quoted any "well known homophobic Christian website"
That is made up.
Another lying smear.

Subject: RE: BS: Utah: The Firing Squad returns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 10:00 AM

HPA and PHE.